Speaker 1: I am Yamla. I've been very open about the fact
Speaker 1: that I was not always good at making my relationships perk.
Speaker 1: I have been divorced three times, twice from the same person.
Speaker 1: In other words, I have seen a lot and failed
Speaker 1: a lot in my relationships. So I am here to
Speaker 1: share with you what I learned along the way because
Speaker 1: I did take copious notes. Welcome to the Our Spot,
Speaker 1: a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Welcome
Speaker 1: to the Our Spot, the place we come to talk
Speaker 1: about all things relationships, in all kinds of relationships. I
Speaker 1: am your host, your guide, or should I say today
Speaker 1: I will be one of your gods because I am
Speaker 1: back with legendary author, artist, cultural activist Kevin Powell, who
Speaker 1: is the Grammy nominated creator of Grocery Shopping with My Mother.
Speaker 1: Today we're talking with two more mothers about their relationships
Speaker 1: with their sons. Now, if you haven't listened to last
Speaker 1: week's episode with Kevin, please go back and check it
Speaker 1: out right now so you can be right up to
Speaker 1: the moment and what we've been talking about. We're returning
Speaker 1: to this conversation about mothers and sons because it can
Speaker 1: be one of the most blessed and difficult relationships a
Speaker 1: mother or a son could ever have. When you talk
Speaker 1: about a mother's son relationship, you're talking about a woman
Speaker 1: raising a man. There's an ancient African proverb that says,
Speaker 1: the king is who is mother makes it now. Kevin
Speaker 1: has been very authentic, very real, very up front about
Speaker 1: how much he loves his mother and how difficult their
Speaker 1: relationship has been. Thank you, Kevin for joining us today.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and I'm just humbled and grateful.
Speaker 3: Kevin.
Speaker 1: I've got some mothers on the line, and I want
Speaker 1: you to talk to them as a son. Okay, greetings beloved,
Speaker 1: and welcome to the art spot. My guest today is
Speaker 1: Kevin Powell, the Grammy nominated author of Grocery Shopping with
Speaker 1: My Mother. And we're talking to mothers and sons today.
Speaker 1: Are you a mother or a son? Hey, alrighty, talk
Speaker 1: to Kevin. He's a son and he wants to help you.
Speaker 1: Are you in love with your son or in breakdown?
Speaker 4: Most?
Speaker 1: Okay, take a breath, mom, take a breath, Take a breath.
Speaker 2: Take a breath.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How old is your son? Okay, tell
Speaker 1: us what's going on?
Speaker 4: So I got pregnant in college at twenty two. And
Speaker 4: when I found out I was six months pregnant. Long
Speaker 4: story short, my dad called. I called him a sperm donor. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I may not agree with that, but that's where I am.
Speaker 4: And so that was it. I spoke to him. Haven't
Speaker 4: seen him anything. Fast forward to between nineteen. My son
Speaker 4: is a sophomore in college and he's in Houston, so,
Speaker 4: you know, just going back and forth, I was like,
Speaker 4: if Houston's where you're going to be, let's just go
Speaker 4: ahead and get your driver's license there. And so when
Speaker 4: you went to go get this driver's licen teenage, his
Speaker 4: first certificate, I wasn't thinking about the stupidly didn't have
Speaker 4: a father's name on it. I just didn't tell you
Speaker 4: what he needed. Well, instead, I'm calling me and I'm
Speaker 4: on the outside looking because I didn't know any of
Speaker 4: this to happen. He called my sister and they decided
Speaker 4: to contact the sperm donor connected to two. They did
Speaker 4: a DNA test and everything my parents knew about it.
Speaker 4: Everybody knew about it. This so for me and I'm
Speaker 4: his mom. My son came home, he approached me about it,
Speaker 4: and I told him yeah, and I was just like,
Speaker 4: what has you done? Like why did you do this
Speaker 4: like this? And you know, he was like, because it's
Speaker 4: my story and I get to know my story. And
Speaker 4: so I asked him, I said, well, why didn't you
Speaker 4: come to me? And he was like, because you had
Speaker 4: twenty two years to tell me you did.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: And I was like, all right, cool. My parents think
Speaker 4: I'm the problem. I think if they're all the problems
Speaker 4: on talk of all of that. My dad pops up
Speaker 4: at my house in March, like demanding to tell him
Speaker 4: what's going on in my house. I'm forty eight years old,
Speaker 4: my husband is fifty. We had been married for twenty
Speaker 4: five years, together for twenty six, so we were dating
Speaker 4: when my son was six. Myself, that's all that my
Speaker 4: son knows. I guess you didn't going to detail them.
Speaker 4: I shouldn't. I just asked him if there is anything
Speaker 4: else you need to know, and so he passed us
Speaker 4: out and he was like, oh, it's time out. The conversation.
Speaker 4: Conversation should have been in, you know, so many years ago.
Speaker 4: It's time out for that. And I said, okay, So
Speaker 4: I got a really hard day it was, and I
Speaker 4: want to meet you where you at, and I want
Speaker 4: to have this conversation that you need to have. I
Speaker 4: can't have this conversation if you're not willing to do
Speaker 4: the work. Like I'm here, I'm the only one with
Speaker 4: all of the questions and all of the answers. It's
Speaker 4: just me, I said. And I'm sorry that you got
Speaker 4: it the way that you got it. I'm sorry that
Speaker 4: you couldn't come to me first because I thought we
Speaker 4: had a better relationship than it. And I'm sorry, I said.
Speaker 4: But so he was like, you know, he started cussing me,
Speaker 4: and I was like, okay, so that's what we're not
Speaker 4: going to do. I am still your mother. We're not
Speaker 4: doing that. And he was like, I don't want to
Speaker 4: talk to you. And I know you clearly want to
Speaker 4: talk to me, because you very much me. Time I
Speaker 4: got into the house, I said, you walk around here,
Speaker 4: you don't say nothing to nobody. That's school. You work
Speaker 4: at night, we don't really see you. You talk to
Speaker 4: you dad morning, you talk to me. I don't really
Speaker 4: care as long as you're talking to somebody, I said.
Speaker 4: Then I come home and I get this. I understand that.
Speaker 4: On the ning, I'm sorry I did what I thought
Speaker 4: was best for you, because I didn't want you growing
Speaker 4: up thinking that there was something wrong with you, that
Speaker 4: somebody walked away from you. And I was protecting you
Speaker 4: with your mom, because that's what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 4: And so like he grabbed my wrists, and when he
Speaker 4: grabbed my wrist, I'm wanted to, you know, protect myself.
Speaker 4: And he has his hair and braids, and so I
Speaker 4: cast the back of his men like you're gonna let
Speaker 4: me go. We're not doing this.
Speaker 1: So let me ask you. Let me ask you, mom.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Where are you with your
Speaker 1: son today? Where are you today? That's that's the background.
Speaker 1: Where are you with him today?
Speaker 4: I nowhere with him today. I'm sending to save you
Speaker 4: that I was a year ago. He came home this weekend.
Speaker 4: He had called me Friday and he was like, hey,
Speaker 4: I'm in town. You at home. I said no, I
Speaker 4: mean four months. I said, but I'm on my way home.
Speaker 4: I'm on the road now and he said, okay, you're
Speaker 4: right behind me. Call me when you get home. I said, okay,
Speaker 4: I called him aport. I texted him and said, hey home.
Speaker 4: He said, I'm at the store right now. I'll hit
Speaker 4: you up later. That was at four or fifteen. I
Speaker 4: stay up until like ten o'clock, no call on nothing.
Speaker 4: Saturday morning, no calling on nothing. Then I'm at my
Speaker 4: guy door. We're at our guide dooring this birthday party
Speaker 4: because she's turning one. He called me at fort starting.
Speaker 4: I'm like, where are you at? And I was like,
Speaker 4: I'm me and my guy told this birthday party. Where
Speaker 4: are you talking about? He's like, well, you're not coming
Speaker 4: to me his party and I was like, I didn't
Speaker 4: get the invite. And he was like, well, I want
Speaker 4: to see you, like everybody's here. And I was like, well, okay,
Speaker 4: send me the address. May I'll come. Now let me
Speaker 4: call because I have to tell you. I was in
Speaker 4: my feelings about that. I felt some type of way
Speaker 4: because you had been here Friday since two o'clock. You
Speaker 4: told me to call you when I got home, and
Speaker 4: I did. Y'all wasn't at the store all day long.
Speaker 4: But you've grown like I'm cool with that, Like it's fine,
Speaker 4: go to the party. He has me. All of the
Speaker 4: boys that he's the ningles that hang out at the house,
Speaker 4: the ones that I helped raise, all like, hey, mom,
Speaker 4: how are you going blah blah blah. We have this
Speaker 4: thirty forty minute conversation at a birthday party for a
Speaker 4: two year old, and we had I, me and my
Speaker 4: husband had plans, and so I was like, well, I'm
Speaker 4: just coming to your face and giving your mail that's
Speaker 4: coming to the house. And then I gotta lead. I
Speaker 4: am your mother, and I feel like I deserve more
Speaker 4: this thirty forty five minutes of your tub.
Speaker 1: Take a breath, man, take a breath.
Speaker 2: May asking questions.
Speaker 5: So do you feel the source the root cause of
Speaker 5: your son's behavior resentment is the father issue?
Speaker 2: Is that what it is? His biological father?
Speaker 4: I don't know. I guess, but I think it's bigger.
Speaker 1: Take a breath, Take a breath. Come on, come on,
Speaker 1: breathe with me. Take a breath.
Speaker 4: I don't know how to breathe it.
Speaker 1: Yes, I know, I know, I do know. I hear that.
Speaker 1: I hear that. Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
Speaker 1: Tell tell me what the tell me, Tell me what
Speaker 1: the tears want to say. Don't tell me why? Tell
Speaker 1: me what did the tears want to say? Tell me.
Speaker 6: You like, yeah, And I.
Speaker 1: Did what I thought from yes, got to tell you.
Speaker 4: I want him to grow up? With that can that
Speaker 4: he wasn't wanted you know, Oh, I think it is
Speaker 4: I better portrayal.
Speaker 5: Okay, what is it that you didn't tell him that
Speaker 5: this might be the source of this, that he had
Speaker 5: a biological father that wasn't your husband, that you married
Speaker 5: it six months.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know you ot coftree. I
Speaker 4: don't know what the problem is. You just keep saying
Speaker 4: you kept me away from my dad. You killt me
Speaker 4: away from my dad. I'm like, I do keep you
Speaker 4: away from your day. You didn't want to be a dad,
Speaker 4: and so he'll be like, wait.
Speaker 1: A minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Mom,
Speaker 1: take a breath. Take a breath again. Yeah, take a
Speaker 1: breath again. Let me go all the way, because this
Speaker 1: is what I'm hearing you say. You were in college
Speaker 1: at twenty two, you got prayant. Yeah, when your father
Speaker 1: approached this young man, he doubted whether he questioned whether
Speaker 1: or not the child you were carrying what's his. As
Speaker 1: a result of that, you, I guess, in conjunction with
Speaker 1: your parents, made the decision to walk away and deny
Speaker 1: this child access to his father. You weren't really clear
Speaker 1: whether it was okay, so what was it, because that's
Speaker 1: what I heard you say. If I got that wrong,
Speaker 1: he said he didn't know if the child was his.
Speaker 4: And that was it.
Speaker 1: Conversation, all right, But you made that choice for your son.
Speaker 1: Did you ever ask him after the child got here?
Speaker 1: Do you want to be involved in the child's life.
Speaker 1: We can do a DNA test, we can do a
Speaker 1: blood test. Did you ever ask the father that?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 1: Okay, so mother, hear me, no heat, no judgment. I
Speaker 1: want you to breathe this in. You denied your son
Speaker 1: access to his father. Nobody's judging you, but you got
Speaker 1: to own that. You got to start there. Whether your
Speaker 1: father encouraged you, your mother encouraged me, whether you pull
Speaker 1: the card out that chrisco. Can you denied your son
Speaker 1: access to his father based on his initial response to
Speaker 1: hearing that you were pregnant? Can you own that?
Speaker 4: I will own it. I hear you. I don't feel
Speaker 4: like that was my responsibility.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, if you if you never said to the man,
Speaker 1: do you want access to your son? A call, a
Speaker 1: phone card, a call, a postcard. This is your son.
Speaker 1: We can do a DNA test, but do you want
Speaker 1: access to him? If you didn't do that, mom, even
Speaker 1: though it was the best you knew how to do
Speaker 1: at the time. I get that, I get it, hear me.
Speaker 1: I get it. I got three children by three different men,
Speaker 1: so I get as a mom, your first thing is
Speaker 1: let me protect this child. But you also got to
Speaker 1: own how you went about protecting the child. You denied
Speaker 1: your son access to his father. Have you ever forgiven
Speaker 1: yourself for that? And you did the best you could?
Speaker 2: Go ahead, Kevin, I'm sorry, no, no, no, I'm just
Speaker 2: jumping on what you're saying.
Speaker 5: You know, say space, no judgment, as I always say,
Speaker 5: Listen that I only saw my father three times from
Speaker 5: when I was born until I was eight years old.
Speaker 5: My mother told me that father disowned me and said
Speaker 5: I'm done. Never saw him again. I made a conscious
Speaker 5: decision when I was an adult. I wanted to know
Speaker 5: my father. My mother had a lot of emotions about it.
Speaker 5: I finally found my father myself after he was dead.
Speaker 5: I simply needed to know who he was. Didn't mean
Speaker 5: I wanted to have a relationship with him or his family.
Speaker 5: I do not, just for the record. Just need to
Speaker 5: know where I came from, and that was important to me.
Speaker 5: And I've heard this story from a lot of boys
Speaker 5: of mothers where there wasn't the best situation between the
Speaker 5: mother and the father, and the father wasn't there and
Speaker 5: they were told.
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 5: My next book is on Tupac Shakur, who I knew
Speaker 5: very well. His mother told him a fainting, I love
Speaker 5: a fanning, But she told Tupac that his father was dead.
Speaker 5: Tupac's father showed up when Tupac ended up in jail,
Speaker 5: Tupac's biological father showed up at the prison.
Speaker 2: Parc was in shock.
Speaker 5: I thought you were dead, basically, And I think, you know,
Speaker 5: it's important to understand that that's something that when kids
Speaker 5: get older, boys, if they don't have father, their biological
Speaker 5: fathers in their lives, even if they had an amazing father, stepfather,
Speaker 5: you know, father figure like your husband, there's still something
Speaker 5: there that's yearning for.
Speaker 2: Well, who where did I come from?
Speaker 5: Yes, literally ten years ago this Thanksgiving, I had gotten
Speaker 5: the information from the genealogists, and I sat there with
Speaker 5: my mother on Thanksgiving Day, November twenty thirteen, I said, Ma,
Speaker 5: I found my father, And at first she cursed because
Speaker 5: she's still hurt by whatever happened with my mother between
Speaker 5: her and him, I'll.
Speaker 2: Never know the full story.
Speaker 5: I don't know because she can't or will not share
Speaker 5: this full story, right. And then I said he was dead,
Speaker 5: and she got quiet, and then I said, well, I'm
Speaker 5: going to have I'm here, I'm going to go. I'm
Speaker 5: going to go. I'm going to drive to South Carolina
Speaker 5: with a friend and I'm going to go find the family.
Speaker 2: And I said I need to do this.
Speaker 5: For me, and my mother was like, and I think
Speaker 5: I think my mother felt like I was somehow betraying her.
Speaker 2: Yes, I was going to go to the other side.
Speaker 5: And when I got back from that trip, I said, Ma,
Speaker 5: I need you to understand you raised me. You're the
Speaker 5: parent that I know, the biological parent that I know.
Speaker 5: I'm never going to abandon you. I had to do
Speaker 5: this for myself. I just need you to understand. I
Speaker 5: need to do know this for myself. I'm an adult now.
Speaker 5: I need to know this for myself because actually a
Speaker 5: lot of blanks fulfilled in when I found out who
Speaker 5: my father was and the background of my father, who
Speaker 5: his family, well his family was.
Speaker 2: He explained a lot of things that I needed to know.
Speaker 2: And that's all it was.
Speaker 5: You know what I mean, and if the child decided
Speaker 5: they want to have a relationship with that side, that's
Speaker 5: there right as well as adults. But I think you
Speaker 5: know where the hurt comes in is not only not
Speaker 5: being told certain things, but then you know, not being
Speaker 5: able to figure it out as an adult either, you know,
Speaker 5: not knowing where to go. I literally spent a few
Speaker 5: years with a genealogy is going back and forth, tryge.
Speaker 5: All I knew was South Carolina. Well, South Carolina's a
Speaker 5: big state. I didn't know anything, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: I knew his name, his first name is last name
Speaker 5: in South Carolina, and we just kind of you know,
Speaker 5: it was a miracle that I even found my father's family,
Speaker 5: and you know, I needed to do that.
Speaker 2: And I'm good, you know what I mean.
Speaker 5: I'm good, and I don't have a relationship with them,
Speaker 5: but I'm good because now I know that's all I needed.
Speaker 4: And I keep it and I'm fine with it.
Speaker 1: I know you're not. No, you're not. You're not fine
Speaker 1: with it because you have confused the boy you slept with,
Speaker 1: allowed him to worship in the temple of your body,
Speaker 1: who then denied you and questioned your fidelity. You have
Speaker 1: him confused with the man who fathered your child. You
Speaker 1: call him a sperm donor. That's the first mistake. He
Speaker 1: may be a sperm donor to you, but he's the
Speaker 1: father of your child. And the fact that you have
Speaker 1: not owned that's where your son is stuck. He's stuck there.
Speaker 1: We'll talk more about it when we come back. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to the r spot. Let's pick up where we
Speaker 1: left off. He wants to share with you you know
Speaker 1: what that felt like for him, And you're dismissing him
Speaker 1: by saying I did what I thought was right. Well,
Speaker 1: what that translates to, mama is you made a choice
Speaker 1: for him, which is not the choice that either his
Speaker 1: father made or that he made for himself. And until
Speaker 1: you can neutralize that, until you can forgive that, your
Speaker 1: son is going to be stuck. You're not the victim here,
Speaker 1: he is. You gotta own it. And let me tell
Speaker 1: you something. I can tell you this because I did it.
Speaker 1: I did it. I did it to my daughter Jamia.
Speaker 1: I allowed my husband to raise her and trained her
Speaker 1: to believe that that was her father, and she was
Speaker 1: dying of cancer when she found out the truth, and
Speaker 1: I had to own it. I had to own it.
Speaker 1: And after she died and I read her journals about
Speaker 1: how devastated she was by that. You gotta own it, mama. Now,
Speaker 1: had you gone to him and he said, I don't
Speaker 1: want nothing to do with this kid, then you would
Speaker 1: have a leg to stand on.
Speaker 2: Here.
Speaker 4: I guess on me. I have a lot of times
Speaker 4: because I didn't walk away, and I'm not gonna run
Speaker 4: in behind anybody. But I hear you. I hear you.
Speaker 4: I own it.
Speaker 3: I hear you.
Speaker 1: Okay, you gotta go there and forgive yourself for it.
Speaker 1: You gotta forgive yourself for it. You've got to hear that,
Speaker 1: because he and Anne. You know what, Here's here's just
Speaker 1: Mama to mama. This is mama bear to Mama Bear. Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't care what you do, Mama. I don't care
Speaker 1: what you do. If you raise the child, all of
Speaker 1: the excuse my language, all of this shit is gonna
Speaker 1: end up in your lap. I don't care what you do,
Speaker 1: because you are the most you are the safest place
Speaker 1: for him to fall. He ain't gonna beat his father up.
Speaker 1: He gonna beat you up. That's like the fathers will
Speaker 1: come on the weekend and take the kids to Disneyland,
Speaker 1: who take them to the park. They get all the credit.
Speaker 1: My daddy, my daddy, my dad, you know. And the
Speaker 1: mom is there doing laundry and rubbing, cleaning up bloody
Speaker 1: noses and running the PTA meetings. And daddy comes with
Speaker 1: two toys a hot dog and he gets all the credit.
Speaker 1: That's just the way it is, MA.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So what do I do? What do I do?
Speaker 1: So the first step after you forgive your tell your
Speaker 1: son I was wrong. I was wrong. I hear you,
Speaker 1: I was wrong. Because until you do that and open
Speaker 1: your heart, he's not going to feel safe, and there's
Speaker 1: no space for him to come in and tell you
Speaker 1: how it feels. His feeling about the experience doesn't make
Speaker 1: you wrong. Is that right, Kevin?
Speaker 5: That's right, that's right, you got it. But you have
Speaker 5: to hear him out. How does he feel.
Speaker 1: In addition to Kevin's Grammy nominated album Rosny Shopping with
Speaker 1: My Mama with My Mother, I want you to get
Speaker 1: that and listen to those pieces, particularly the piece about
Speaker 1: his mother, because I don't think your son knows your story.
Speaker 1: I don't think he knows your story as a woman,
Speaker 1: not as his mother, and find a way to be happy.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Kevin's father was dead. Your son has
Speaker 1: an opportunity to build a relationship. Heal a relationship with
Speaker 1: his father, which is gonna heal a hole in his soul.
Speaker 1: Whether you like it or not. He needs his father,
Speaker 1: even if he ends up hating him because he's a
Speaker 1: scoundrel and a scallywag, he has to come to that.
Speaker 1: He's building a relationship with his father. You have to
Speaker 1: build a relationship with this young man. Be happy for him.
Speaker 1: So many men don't ever have that experience. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: they get to have it? Is that accurate, Kevin?
Speaker 2: That's accurate.
Speaker 5: When I was at the boys conference here this weekend,
Speaker 5: four hundred boys there, three quarters so they didn't know
Speaker 5: their fathers when they asked them to raise their hands.
Speaker 1: You haven't done anything wrong, but the choices that you made,
Speaker 1: even the choices that you were guided to make by
Speaker 1: your parents, have had a negative impact on your son.
Speaker 1: That's what I want you to own. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4: I mean, it's the truth. So, I mean I just
Speaker 4: got to look at it in a different way. For me,
Speaker 4: it was never about him, not normal. I guess I
Speaker 4: just wanted to make sure that he was solid.
Speaker 6: But I hear you.
Speaker 4: Saying that he could never be solid or complete until
Speaker 4: he knew where he came from. I wasn't, but I
Speaker 4: guess I was getting the opportunity to do it, and
Speaker 4: I didn't do it. I just feel like I should
Speaker 4: have been the one to make the introduction. But I
Speaker 4: get it. I missed my mark and that's what you said,
Speaker 4: so I have to own that as well.
Speaker 1: That's not accurate. I can't let you beat yourself up.
Speaker 1: You did what you did back then. Don't blame yourself
Speaker 1: for what you did back then. I just want you
Speaker 1: to understand how it's showing up now. Yeah, but you're
Speaker 1: beating yourself up and that's not going to go overwhelm
Speaker 1: in terms of you building a relationship with your son.
Speaker 1: Don't beat yourself up for what you did back then.
Speaker 1: Just come current with who you are now. You were
Speaker 1: twenty two, then you're forty eight. Now. Oh okay, I
Speaker 1: see now. The choice that I made was based on
Speaker 1: how I felt then and not necessarily what was best
Speaker 1: for my son, got it, Okay. I wouldn't do that today.
Speaker 1: Please don't beat yourself up.
Speaker 5: Please, And you have an opportunity telling you that a
Speaker 5: lot of mothers, like my mother for example. You just
Speaker 5: you have the emotional tools, the fact that you're even
Speaker 5: able to engage in this kind of conversation with us.
Speaker 5: A lot of us in our communities don't even have that.
Speaker 5: You know, I wish I could have this kind of
Speaker 5: conversation with my mother. It's just, you know, a lot
Speaker 5: of us just shut down. Well that's in the past.
Speaker 5: I want to talk is over? What's the point?
Speaker 2: You know, and you have a gift. Do you have
Speaker 2: gifts to be able to do this?
Speaker 5: Don't take that for granted, you know, because I still
Speaker 5: have to fill This is part of reas why I'm
Speaker 5: a writer. I have to kind of fill in the
Speaker 5: blanks for myself, like you know, what is this where
Speaker 5: I get second hand information for other relatives. You know,
Speaker 5: you literally can have this conversation directly with your son,
Speaker 5: and I guarantee it'll be transformative, like a Yana's advising.
Speaker 5: It's how you come to the conversation. You know, so
Speaker 5: many sons who actually would love to be to talk
Speaker 5: with their mothers. Trust me on that, I'm one of them.
Speaker 5: I've had this conversation with other boys son of mothers,
Speaker 5: and we really want to be of a conversation.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, as mothers, we get so caught up in
Speaker 1: the doing. You know, make sure they're fed, make sure
Speaker 1: they go to school, make sure they're success, make sure
Speaker 1: that they don't disrespect. Now, we get so caught up
Speaker 1: in the doing. The third world reality to the one
Speaker 1: thing our heart want, our sons want from us more
Speaker 1: than anything, is our heart.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Give him your heart. Yeah, give him your heart. When
Speaker 1: I stopped mothering my son and started being his friend
Speaker 1: and started dealing with him as an adult, our whole
Speaker 1: relationship chain. My son would deep drink my dirty bath water,
Speaker 1: but you know what, he would do it on some
Speaker 1: ice with a chaser. Okay, do you believe that your
Speaker 1: relationship with your son can be healed?
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 1: Don't be in a hurry. It may not happen before Christmas.
Speaker 1: It may not happen, you know, get yourself cleaned up.
Speaker 1: This boy lived in your body. He's not going nowhere.
Speaker 1: He's not He's not going anywhere. Don't be so desperate
Speaker 1: and in a rush. Give it time so that once
Speaker 1: you heal it up and once you rebuild this relationship
Speaker 1: it's built on a solid foundation. Go get you a
Speaker 1: counselor a therapist to help you clean this stuff up
Speaker 1: because you can't do it by yourself. It's too old
Speaker 1: now you cannot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Hold on to the belief that my relationship with my
Speaker 1: son will be healed. Just that period, my relationship with
Speaker 1: my son will be healed. Holy Spirit, show me how gotten? Period?
Speaker 1: Thank you, Miss Latania, Thank you, Bye bye, Thank you, Kevin.
Speaker 1: We got one more.
Speaker 5: Mom.
Speaker 1: I want to expose it to you. I know I'm
Speaker 1: holding you forever, but I think it's a valuable conversation. Okay, greetings,
Speaker 1: you're a mom. Are you in love with or in
Speaker 1: breakdown with your son? Which one?
Speaker 6: Our relationship is in breakdown?
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me what's happening. Mama, tell me what's happening.
Speaker 1: How old is your son?
Speaker 6: My oldest is in is twenty three, and that's the
Speaker 6: one that the relationship is in breakdown.
Speaker 1: What happened?
Speaker 6: So what's going on right now? Most recently is he
Speaker 6: is struggling with substance use and I am trying to
Speaker 6: figure out how to be present and support him. I
Speaker 6: separated and divorced from my children's father in about twenty
Speaker 6: twenty and that is where the biggest breakdown and the
Speaker 6: disconnect really started with us. So we don't really have
Speaker 6: any contact. He's very angry with me when we do
Speaker 6: have contact, when things come up around the substance use,
Speaker 6: or he has been hospitalized and things like that. When
Speaker 6: I try to talk to him about trying to get help,
Speaker 6: then that's when the explosion comes and he blames a
Speaker 6: lot of stuff on me. He blames he's angry with
Speaker 6: me about my separation from his father. And so the
Speaker 6: struggle that I find is some of the things that
Speaker 6: he is angry with me about that he expresses are
Speaker 6: have come from.
Speaker 1: His father, such as tell me as.
Speaker 6: Such as he So once when we first got separated,
Speaker 6: all three boys came and lived with me. My oldest
Speaker 6: son was eighteen at the time. He was very angry,
Speaker 6: so he would be combative in the household. He would
Speaker 6: you know, not be responsive. And I found out that
Speaker 6: he was having conversations with his dad that once his
Speaker 6: father got settled, he would go live with him. And
Speaker 6: so that fueled almost like this idea that like, I
Speaker 6: only have to deal with you until I go with
Speaker 6: my dad. So ultimately we got to things came to
Speaker 6: a head, and I told I called him and called
Speaker 6: his dad, and I said, if that's the plan, then
Speaker 6: you need to come get him and he needs to
Speaker 6: come stay with you at that same time. Such as
Speaker 6: an example is I was about to do our taxes
Speaker 6: and his father had previously done our taxes as a family,
Speaker 6: so I didn't know that his father was allowing him
Speaker 6: to file taxes separate. So when I am now on
Speaker 6: my own and go to file taxes, he has decided
Speaker 6: in his mind that I sold his W two's and I,
Speaker 6: you know, did his taxes and lied to him when
Speaker 6: I'm doing it as all of y'all are children under
Speaker 6: my roof, but him being the oldest, he had been
Speaker 6: with us all his life, you know, Me and his
Speaker 6: father was all he knew. And then COVID hit. So
Speaker 6: I think it was just like a perfect storm of trauma,
Speaker 6: of grief, of all of these things. He had an
Speaker 6: involuntary commitment for ten days in the behavioral health hospital.
Speaker 6: They released him to a residential program in our town,
Speaker 6: and by that night he left because it was voluntary,
Speaker 6: so he packed up in the.
Speaker 4: Middle of the night.
Speaker 6: He said, you know, he didn't like the place. He
Speaker 6: didn't feel comfortable. He doesn't need any help. He's not
Speaker 6: an addict. He said all of these things, and he said,
Speaker 6: you know, I'm going to just get a job, and
Speaker 6: I don't want to be there, and so he is
Speaker 6: not open to get in help.
Speaker 1: When did you become aware that he was engaged in
Speaker 1: substance abuse? How old was he?
Speaker 6: So I became aware twenty twenty twenty one, So he
Speaker 6: was nineteen. I became aware. This would have been two
Speaker 6: almost three, thanksgivens Ago. I became aware it was on
Speaker 6: a thanksgiven it was twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: You know that age, that eighteen nineteen year old age.
Speaker 1: Identity versus identity confusion. The question that comes up in
Speaker 1: the soul to be answered is who am I? Where
Speaker 1: am I going? So unfortunately the divorce happened at that
Speaker 1: time when he's asking, okay, who am I? And where
Speaker 1: am I going? Am I going to my father? Am
Speaker 1: I going to my mother? I would also, I could
Speaker 1: be very wrong. I'm always willing to be wrong that
Speaker 1: in your role in the family was to keep everything together.
Speaker 1: You made sure everybody got everything, everything was done. You
Speaker 1: had a very profound organizing role in the family. Would
Speaker 1: that be accurate? You were the dominant voice in the family.
Speaker 1: So when the divorce came, the question on your son's
Speaker 1: mind is why can't you fix this? You donet fixed
Speaker 1: everything else, fix this, you know. So Kevin talked to her.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shut up because you shared it. If you're
Speaker 1: open to it, talk about your drinking, what drove you there,
Speaker 1: What was going on in your mind to help this
Speaker 1: mother understand? You know, all the talking, all the beaten
Speaker 1: pleading in the world is not going to help him
Speaker 1: until he gets to where you got.
Speaker 2: I was depressed. I was.
Speaker 5: I was in the middle of a deep depression for
Speaker 5: about four or five years, uh not coincidentally a Yana
Speaker 5: and call her it paralleled when tupacin Biggie got killed
Speaker 5: and I was doing all right. I was at Vibe magazine,
Speaker 5: as you said, during that time of Yana, but I
Speaker 5: was going through it. And what started off is just
Speaker 5: casual drinking turned into drinking, waking up, drinking, going to sleep,
Speaker 5: drinking in the middle of the day, drinking, drinking, drinking.
Speaker 5: It was bad, you know, it was very bad at times,
Speaker 5: and I just didn't feel good about myself. And it
Speaker 5: was the only thing that helped me to cope at
Speaker 5: times from day to day. You know, my relationship with
Speaker 5: my mother wasn't great at that time.
Speaker 2: Definitely.
Speaker 5: My father didn't know my father was dying at the time,
Speaker 5: you know, at all. He was just not there in
Speaker 5: my life. Unhealthy relationships. I felt very alone. I felt
Speaker 5: very alone in the bottle the liquor. That addiction is
Speaker 5: all I had, honestly that I thought I had. I'm
Speaker 5: not sure I didn't go to treatment. By the grace
Speaker 5: of God, I went cold turkey and was able to stop.
Speaker 1: But what got you there? What got you to that
Speaker 1: moment when you said, I've got to stop this? What
Speaker 1: got you there?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 5: Well, my doctor, for some reason, I still had the
Speaker 5: wordithal to go get physicals. My doctor said to me,
Speaker 5: the pace that you're on, you're going to destroy your
Speaker 5: liver one day, You're going to destroy yourself. And it
Speaker 5: made me think back to some elders I had met
Speaker 5: who told me that they had paid a price. One
Speaker 5: elder in particular, that he had paid a price for
Speaker 5: the excesses of his youth, and that blew my mind.
Speaker 5: You know, I think I was scared that I was
Speaker 5: drinking myself toward early death.
Speaker 2: Caller mother and Yanna. I felt worthless. I hear you,
Speaker 2: I hear you.
Speaker 5: I had to find a reason to live again. And
Speaker 5: I'm quite sure what it was. It was a combination
Speaker 5: of things and I had to find some joy in
Speaker 5: my life, you know, and call it I think, you know,
Speaker 5: I think, not just treatment for the addiction, but you
Speaker 5: know one thing going back to therapy that helped me.
Speaker 5: The therapist asked me, said to me, therapist ahead at
Speaker 5: the time, said what were the things that made you
Speaker 5: happy in your life? And I would say something like
Speaker 5: sports and music, whatever it was. And they the person
Speaker 5: said to me, I need you to bring those things
Speaker 5: center to your life. I need you to start centering
Speaker 5: joy war than you centers sadness. You know, you can't
Speaker 5: just sit in this. I mean, it was so bad.
Speaker 5: Even the music that I listened to was the most
Speaker 5: depressing music.
Speaker 2: It was. Everything was just depressing. It was bad.
Speaker 1: Mama. I have a solution for you, and you are
Speaker 1: probably not going to like it. Are you ready? Okay,
Speaker 1: we'll do it right after this break. Welcome back to
Speaker 1: the R spot. Let's get back to the conversation. Hear me, mama,
Speaker 1: and as a mama, he is gonna be mad at you.
Speaker 1: It's all the shit is always gonna end up in
Speaker 1: your lap because his heartstrings are tied to your being.
Speaker 1: You are his god with a small g You are
Speaker 1: his God. You gotta understand that. And so many mothers
Speaker 1: don't understand that because he lived in your body. I
Speaker 1: want you to hear this, Mama. He is gonna blame you.
Speaker 1: He is because you are his heart. Your son does
Speaker 1: not feel good about himself. Your son is sad. Your
Speaker 1: son is an overwhelmed. That's what depression is is trying
Speaker 1: to convince yourself that you are something or can do
Speaker 1: something that you don't believe you are or can do.
Speaker 1: That's the definition of overwhelm. Your son feels alone, your
Speaker 1: son feels worthless. And hear me, Mama, clutch your pearls
Speaker 1: right now. There is nothing you can do about it
Speaker 1: until he chooses. So, Ma, you gotta let him go.
Speaker 1: You gotta let him fall. He's got to hit rock bottom,
Speaker 1: and remember that God made the rock. You gotta let
Speaker 1: him go. I know, cry, weep your heart out, weep
Speaker 1: it out, MA, let that fear out. But the prayers
Speaker 1: of a mother never go unanswered. You let him go. Physically,
Speaker 1: but you pray every day, you wake up thanking God
Speaker 1: for his recovery. You go to bed thanking God for
Speaker 1: his recovery. Let him fall. If you keep breaking the fall,
Speaker 1: he will never fall low enough for God to lift
Speaker 1: him up. There's nothing you can say that's going to
Speaker 1: make him feel good about himself because he's mad at you.
Speaker 1: You are the object of his up. There's nothing you
Speaker 1: can do that's gonna lift his sadness. He feels worthless mind.
Speaker 1: There's nothing you can do about that. And you didn't
Speaker 1: do anything wrong. This is his journey, his spiritual curriculum.
Speaker 1: Look at Kevin, Look at him. Kevin Powell talking to you,
Speaker 1: wrote a book and honoring and an album honoring his
Speaker 1: mother because he chose to do the work to get
Speaker 1: it together.
Speaker 6: I hear you saying that this is his journey and
Speaker 6: that it's not in my hands physically, but I can pray.
Speaker 1: Yes, one of the worst things that a son can do,
Speaker 1: My son told me this. His greatest fear in life
Speaker 1: was disappointing me. So every time I voiced my disappointment,
Speaker 1: it crushed his soul. And that's why he stayed away
Speaker 1: from me. When he was selling drugs when he was
Speaker 1: stealing cars. He stayed away from me because he didn't
Speaker 1: want to experience my disappointment. Be glad he's staying. He's
Speaker 1: trying to save his soul.
Speaker 6: MA.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let yourself weep, let yourself cry. You know
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm a hardcore healer. So I allowed
Speaker 1: myself to see my daughter laying in her casket three
Speaker 1: years before she died, because that fear of that happening
Speaker 1: to her made me pound her. You gotta do this,
Speaker 1: you gotta do that, You better do this, you better
Speaker 1: do that, And that was crushing her right. So once
Speaker 1: I got through that, I could be go ahead.
Speaker 6: I was gonna say so recently, like the substance thing
Speaker 6: is one thing, but it's like a perfect storm. Like
Speaker 6: I said, so, he was born with the condition. He
Speaker 6: has tumors in his brain, in his heart, but he
Speaker 6: never had any symptoms. And just recently, the time before
Speaker 6: the last that he was hospitalized, he had a major
Speaker 6: seizure and that it was triggered. I don't know what
Speaker 6: triggered it, but he always had like the tumors that
Speaker 6: could trigger it. So I'm thinking the combination of like lifestyle,
Speaker 6: the drugs, not eat and not taking care of itself.
Speaker 6: So he had the seizure and his kidneys were failing,
Speaker 6: and then they released him from the hospital. So it
Speaker 6: was like almost not that I had accepted that he
Speaker 6: was using the substance, but I had sort of come
Speaker 6: to the grips that like I can't do anything about that,
Speaker 6: Like he has to turn around for that. But recently
Speaker 6: now it has been like, have you gone into neprologist?
Speaker 6: Have you done this? Have you done that? Because it's
Speaker 6: just so many things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kevin, what did you need your mom to say
Speaker 1: to you? Yeah? Yeah you do, Kevin. What did you
Speaker 1: need your mother to say to you when you were drinking?
Speaker 1: How could she have supported you when you were drinking?
Speaker 2: If I could have gotten anything, it was what I
Speaker 2: said earlier. I wish I could have.
Speaker 5: Just known that if I wanted to come home, I
Speaker 5: could that. If I needed just a hug, I could
Speaker 5: get it. If I needed a place to get help,
Speaker 5: I could have gotten that.
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. I felt very very alone
Speaker 2: and afraid.
Speaker 1: So, Ma, let me hear your prayer for your son.
Speaker 1: What is your prayer for your son? I want to
Speaker 1: hear it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, God, I just ask you.
Speaker 3: Color Nicholas.
Speaker 6: I asked you to meet him in the places.
Speaker 4: He has needs.
Speaker 6: Ask you to prop him up, just remind him of
Speaker 6: who he is, where he's come from. I actually to
Speaker 6: touch his heart, to let him know that he has loved.
Speaker 6: He's smart, he's funny, he's.
Speaker 3: A big brother, he's an amazing son. I just ask
Speaker 3: you to bring those things back to his awareness. I
Speaker 3: ask you to keep him if he ends up in
Speaker 3: dark places, and I just ask you to allow him
Speaker 3: to walk his journey and fulfill his destiny and just
Speaker 3: find what he needs to love, the compassion, the purpose,
Speaker 3: to ask you to walk alongside of him and just
Speaker 3: keep him. That's my prayer.
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's a frightened mother's prayer. That's a nice prayer.
Speaker 1: But I'm going to tell you how to pray like
Speaker 1: a mother who has a connection to God. Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: going to speak this into your spirit, and knowing that
Speaker 1: because Nicholas lived in your body, it's also speaking into
Speaker 1: his spirit, the precious Lord of the universe, that whom
Speaker 1: we call God, Source Creator. By all the names you
Speaker 1: are known, I know that you know Nicholas. He was
Speaker 1: your son before he was my son. I know that
Speaker 1: when you're shaped and formed Nicholas in my wound, that
Speaker 1: you had a plan for him. You had a vision
Speaker 1: for him, you had a purpose for his life. And
Speaker 1: I know that, no matter what it looks like right now, God,
Speaker 1: that plan is unfolded. Now God, I confess it looks
Speaker 1: a little strange to me. But because I know you
Speaker 1: are in charge, and I know you are with Nicholas,
Speaker 1: and I know you are in Nicholas, I know that plan,
Speaker 1: your plan for his peace, for his safety, for his health,
Speaker 1: for his strength, is unfolding. So God, quiet my spirit,
Speaker 1: quiet my mind, open my eyes so that I can
Speaker 1: see you working in as and through Nicholas according to
Speaker 1: your purpose and your plan. I know that right where
Speaker 1: Nicholas is, the fullness of You is. God. I know
Speaker 1: that your wisdom is there. I know that your wholeness
Speaker 1: is there. I know that your truth is there, and
Speaker 1: I know that you are waking it up in every
Speaker 1: cell in Nicholas's body. Even though it looks a little
Speaker 1: strange to me, because it looks strange to me, God,
Speaker 1: it looks strange to me, I confess that. So I
Speaker 1: ask you, I ask you, God, to strengthen me. Strengthen
Speaker 1: me so that I can see your outworking in Nicholas's life.
Speaker 1: Quiet me, God, so that my fear, my worry, my
Speaker 1: disbelief doesn't get in your way. Hold me, God, so
Speaker 1: that when you bring Nicholas falling into my arms, I
Speaker 1: can be for him who you would have me be.
Speaker 1: Now I speak these words God, believing that as I
Speaker 1: ask and believe, it is done. So I'm going to
Speaker 1: say thank you right now, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: As strange as it looks, as weird as it looks,
Speaker 1: as frightened as I am in my mothering worry, I'm
Speaker 1: going to say thank you right now God that your
Speaker 1: plan is unfolding according to your will, and Nicholas is
Speaker 1: safe in your arms. I am so grateful. I let
Speaker 1: it be. And Amen, Amen? How about that?
Speaker 6: Yeah, you don't have.
Speaker 1: To ask God, you have to remind yourself.
Speaker 6: I think.
Speaker 1: Strength to you, Mama. Keep praying from a place of knowing,
Speaker 1: be open to all possibilities, and just to know that
Speaker 1: God is in charge.
Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, Okay, thank you, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: Woo. One of them ways that a man learns his
Speaker 1: strength is by falling and picking himself up. I could
Speaker 1: be wrong. My brother was cross addicted to drugs and alcohol,
Speaker 1: and very often I served as his mother, and he
Speaker 1: called me when he needed I say, you know what,
Speaker 1: you are a grown man. You need to handle your basics.
Speaker 1: Don't call me for rent money. Don't call me for
Speaker 1: light bill money, don't call me for corfee to get
Speaker 1: to work. You're man. You got to handle that. Now
Speaker 1: you want some soda or some cigarettes, call me. I'll
Speaker 1: give you some soda money. I'm not handling your base.
Speaker 1: You handle that. Because I didn't see him as deficient
Speaker 1: and defective. I saw him as challenged and having some difficulty,
Speaker 1: but he had to make the choice for that. I'll
Speaker 1: take care of the frills. You handle the basics. I
Speaker 1: ain't paying your rent. You grown ass man. Now, maybe
Speaker 1: that was wrong, but that's how I handled it.
Speaker 5: My mama practiced that kind of love, and you know,
Speaker 5: I was resentful of it at the time, but it
Speaker 5: actually helped me to figure out some things because I
Speaker 5: had to figure out how to get.
Speaker 2: Up on my own. And I would include even when
Speaker 2: I was abusing alcohol.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, because if you hadn't figured it out
Speaker 1: on your own, you would be both co dependent on
Speaker 1: her and resentful of her.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: A man has to be able to fall and pick
Speaker 1: himself up. Otherwise he will never trust his own strength.
Speaker 1: He won't. Yeah, on behalf of your mother and the
Speaker 1: mothers out there, Kevin, I want to say to you,
Speaker 1: forgive us, forgive me, forgive me for not recognizing and
Speaker 1: I say this to you. I say this to my son.
Speaker 1: I say this to my grandsons and now my great
Speaker 1: grandsons for not recognizing how my mouth, my voice is
Speaker 1: attached to the strings of your heart because the mother's
Speaker 1: heartbeat was the first sound that you heard. The second
Speaker 1: sound was a voice, and not understanding that every word
Speaker 1: that issued forth from my mouth makes an impression and imprint,
Speaker 1: sometimes a cut in your heart, which then affects your
Speaker 1: emotional being, which then affects how you interact with women.
Speaker 1: Forgive me, forgive us for being ignorant to the power
Speaker 1: that we have as mother's. Forgive us, Kevin, and I
Speaker 1: hear you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. What's profound about what you're saying.
Speaker 5: I have long one to say publicly two black women,
Speaker 5: I apologize, and I've done it in different ways. I've
Speaker 5: done it privately because, as Malcolm X once said, famously.
Speaker 5: It becomes a very vicious cycle because I know what
Speaker 5: my mother's daddy did to her and her four girls
Speaker 5: and a boy, and what they went out into the
Speaker 5: world and put out there because of what happened to them.
Speaker 5: But I feel like, you know, and this is for
Speaker 5: all human beings, but you're right when you talk about
Speaker 5: black people specifically, a black and brown people specifically, we
Speaker 5: don't have these kind of conversations enough. And that's why,
Speaker 5: like a yella, when I watched that, I've been watching
Speaker 5: reading you for a long time.
Speaker 2: Sister, But for some reason that DMX interview.
Speaker 1: That's what he did, That's what Tupac did, That's what
Speaker 1: Biggie did, That's what a public enemy did. They could
Speaker 1: craft it into a form of artistry that hip hop
Speaker 1: became because they didn't have the emotional vocabulary to do
Speaker 1: it one on one like this. And the other thing is,
Speaker 1: and I'm saying this to mothers, is very often what
Speaker 1: we projected onto our sons. Our fear, our doubt, our
Speaker 1: disappointment caused them to doubt themselves, and hip hop gave
Speaker 1: them a way to express and experience themselves in a
Speaker 1: much stronger, more powerful way. Because of the doubt that
Speaker 1: was cast on them, because of the fear that was
Speaker 1: cast on them. And again, moms, or you moms out there,
Speaker 1: you didn't do anything wrong. We did what we did.
Speaker 1: Do what we thought was best, doesn't mean it was best.
Speaker 1: We did what we thought was best based on the
Speaker 1: ways that we were wounded. Thank you, Kevin Powell. I
Speaker 1: love you, I appreciate you. Good luck to you. I'm
Speaker 1: your Yeay, your mama and your auntie called me anytime.
Speaker 2: I love you, and I appreciate you for having me here.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: And to the R Spot is listening, I say to you,
Speaker 1: stay in peace, not in pieces. Fine. The R Spot
Speaker 1: is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.