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Speaker 1: I am Yamla. I've been very open about the fact

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Speaker 1: that I was not always good at making my relationships perk.

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Speaker 1: I have been divorced three times, twice from the same person.

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Speaker 1: In other words, I have seen a lot and failed

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Speaker 1: a lot in my relationships. So I am here to

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Speaker 1: share with you what I learned along the way because

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Speaker 1: I did take copious notes. Welcome to the Our Spot,

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Speaker 1: a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to the Our Spot, the place we come to talk

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Speaker 1: about all things relationships, in all kinds of relationships. I

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Speaker 1: am your host, your guide, or should I say today

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Speaker 1: I will be one of your gods because I am

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Speaker 1: back with legendary author, artist, cultural activist Kevin Powell, who

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Speaker 1: is the Grammy nominated creator of Grocery Shopping with My Mother.

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Speaker 1: Today we're talking with two more mothers about their relationships

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Speaker 1: with their sons. Now, if you haven't listened to last

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Speaker 1: week's episode with Kevin, please go back and check it

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Speaker 1: out right now so you can be right up to

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Speaker 1: the moment and what we've been talking about. We're returning

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Speaker 1: to this conversation about mothers and sons because it can

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Speaker 1: be one of the most blessed and difficult relationships a

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Speaker 1: mother or a son could ever have. When you talk

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Speaker 1: about a mother's son relationship, you're talking about a woman

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Speaker 1: raising a man. There's an ancient African proverb that says,

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Speaker 1: the king is who is mother makes it now. Kevin

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Speaker 1: has been very authentic, very real, very up front about

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Speaker 1: how much he loves his mother and how difficult their

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Speaker 1: relationship has been. Thank you, Kevin for joining us today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much, and I'm just humbled and grateful.

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Speaker 3: Kevin.

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Speaker 1: I've got some mothers on the line, and I want

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Speaker 1: you to talk to them as a son. Okay, greetings beloved,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the art spot. My guest today is

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Speaker 1: Kevin Powell, the Grammy nominated author of Grocery Shopping with

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Speaker 1: My Mother. And we're talking to mothers and sons today.

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Speaker 1: Are you a mother or a son? Hey, alrighty, talk

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Speaker 1: to Kevin. He's a son and he wants to help you.

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Speaker 1: Are you in love with your son or in breakdown?

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Speaker 4: Most?

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Speaker 1: Okay, take a breath, mom, take a breath, Take a breath.

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Speaker 2: Take a breath.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How old is your son? Okay, tell

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Speaker 1: us what's going on?

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Speaker 4: So I got pregnant in college at twenty two. And

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Speaker 4: when I found out I was six months pregnant. Long

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Speaker 4: story short, my dad called. I called him a sperm donor. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I may not agree with that, but that's where I am.

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Speaker 4: And so that was it. I spoke to him. Haven't

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Speaker 4: seen him anything. Fast forward to between nineteen. My son

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Speaker 4: is a sophomore in college and he's in Houston, so,

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Speaker 4: you know, just going back and forth, I was like,

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Speaker 4: if Houston's where you're going to be, let's just go

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Speaker 4: ahead and get your driver's license there. And so when

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Speaker 4: you went to go get this driver's licen teenage, his

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Speaker 4: first certificate, I wasn't thinking about the stupidly didn't have

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Speaker 4: a father's name on it. I just didn't tell you

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Speaker 4: what he needed. Well, instead, I'm calling me and I'm

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Speaker 4: on the outside looking because I didn't know any of

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Speaker 4: this to happen. He called my sister and they decided

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Speaker 4: to contact the sperm donor connected to two. They did

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Speaker 4: a DNA test and everything my parents knew about it.

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Speaker 4: Everybody knew about it. This so for me and I'm

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Speaker 4: his mom. My son came home, he approached me about it,

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Speaker 4: and I told him yeah, and I was just like,

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Speaker 4: what has you done? Like why did you do this

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Speaker 4: like this? And you know, he was like, because it's

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Speaker 4: my story and I get to know my story. And

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Speaker 4: so I asked him, I said, well, why didn't you

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Speaker 4: come to me? And he was like, because you had

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Speaker 4: twenty two years to tell me you did.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 4: And I was like, all right, cool. My parents think

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Speaker 4: I'm the problem. I think if they're all the problems

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Speaker 4: on talk of all of that. My dad pops up

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Speaker 4: at my house in March, like demanding to tell him

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Speaker 4: what's going on in my house. I'm forty eight years old,

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Speaker 4: my husband is fifty. We had been married for twenty

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Speaker 4: five years, together for twenty six, so we were dating

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Speaker 4: when my son was six. Myself, that's all that my

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Speaker 4: son knows. I guess you didn't going to detail them.

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Speaker 4: I shouldn't. I just asked him if there is anything

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Speaker 4: else you need to know, and so he passed us

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Speaker 4: out and he was like, oh, it's time out. The conversation.

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Speaker 4: Conversation should have been in, you know, so many years ago.

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Speaker 4: It's time out for that. And I said, okay, So

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Speaker 4: I got a really hard day it was, and I

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Speaker 4: want to meet you where you at, and I want

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Speaker 4: to have this conversation that you need to have. I

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Speaker 4: can't have this conversation if you're not willing to do

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Speaker 4: the work. Like I'm here, I'm the only one with

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Speaker 4: all of the questions and all of the answers. It's

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Speaker 4: just me, I said. And I'm sorry that you got

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Speaker 4: it the way that you got it. I'm sorry that

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Speaker 4: you couldn't come to me first because I thought we

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Speaker 4: had a better relationship than it. And I'm sorry, I said.

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Speaker 4: But so he was like, you know, he started cussing me,

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Speaker 4: and I was like, okay, so that's what we're not

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Speaker 4: going to do. I am still your mother. We're not

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Speaker 4: doing that. And he was like, I don't want to

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Speaker 4: talk to you. And I know you clearly want to

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Speaker 4: talk to me, because you very much me. Time I

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Speaker 4: got into the house, I said, you walk around here,

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Speaker 4: you don't say nothing to nobody. That's school. You work

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Speaker 4: at night, we don't really see you. You talk to

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Speaker 4: you dad morning, you talk to me. I don't really

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Speaker 4: care as long as you're talking to somebody, I said.

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Speaker 4: Then I come home and I get this. I understand that.

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Speaker 4: On the ning, I'm sorry I did what I thought

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Speaker 4: was best for you, because I didn't want you growing

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Speaker 4: up thinking that there was something wrong with you, that

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Speaker 4: somebody walked away from you. And I was protecting you

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Speaker 4: with your mom, because that's what I'm supposed to do.

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Speaker 4: And so like he grabbed my wrists, and when he

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Speaker 4: grabbed my wrist, I'm wanted to, you know, protect myself.

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Speaker 4: And he has his hair and braids, and so I

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Speaker 4: cast the back of his men like you're gonna let

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Speaker 4: me go. We're not doing this.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you. Let me ask you, mom.

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Speaker 1: Let me ask you this. Where are you with your

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Speaker 1: son today? Where are you today? That's that's the background.

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Speaker 1: Where are you with him today?

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Speaker 4: I nowhere with him today. I'm sending to save you

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Speaker 4: that I was a year ago. He came home this weekend.

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Speaker 4: He had called me Friday and he was like, hey,

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Speaker 4: I'm in town. You at home. I said no, I

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Speaker 4: mean four months. I said, but I'm on my way home.

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Speaker 4: I'm on the road now and he said, okay, you're

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Speaker 4: right behind me. Call me when you get home. I said, okay,

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Speaker 4: I called him aport. I texted him and said, hey home.

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Speaker 4: He said, I'm at the store right now. I'll hit

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Speaker 4: you up later. That was at four or fifteen. I

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Speaker 4: stay up until like ten o'clock, no call on nothing.

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Speaker 4: Saturday morning, no calling on nothing. Then I'm at my

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Speaker 4: guy door. We're at our guide dooring this birthday party

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Speaker 4: because she's turning one. He called me at fort starting.

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Speaker 4: I'm like, where are you at? And I was like,

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Speaker 4: I'm me and my guy told this birthday party. Where

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Speaker 4: are you talking about? He's like, well, you're not coming

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Speaker 4: to me his party and I was like, I didn't

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Speaker 4: get the invite. And he was like, well, I want

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Speaker 4: to see you, like everybody's here. And I was like, well, okay,

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Speaker 4: send me the address. May I'll come. Now let me

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Speaker 4: call because I have to tell you. I was in

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Speaker 4: my feelings about that. I felt some type of way

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Speaker 4: because you had been here Friday since two o'clock. You

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Speaker 4: told me to call you when I got home, and

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Speaker 4: I did. Y'all wasn't at the store all day long.

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Speaker 4: But you've grown like I'm cool with that, Like it's fine,

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Speaker 4: go to the party. He has me. All of the

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Speaker 4: boys that he's the ningles that hang out at the house,

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Speaker 4: the ones that I helped raise, all like, hey, mom,

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Speaker 4: how are you going blah blah blah. We have this

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Speaker 4: thirty forty minute conversation at a birthday party for a

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Speaker 4: two year old, and we had I, me and my

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Speaker 4: husband had plans, and so I was like, well, I'm

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Speaker 4: just coming to your face and giving your mail that's

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Speaker 4: coming to the house. And then I gotta lead. I

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Speaker 4: am your mother, and I feel like I deserve more

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Speaker 4: this thirty forty five minutes of your tub.

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Speaker 1: Take a breath, man, take a breath.

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Speaker 2: May asking questions.

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Speaker 5: So do you feel the source the root cause of

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Speaker 5: your son's behavior resentment is the father issue?

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Speaker 2: Is that what it is? His biological father?

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I guess, but I think it's bigger.

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Speaker 1: Take a breath, Take a breath. Come on, come on,

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Speaker 1: breathe with me. Take a breath.

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Speaker 4: I don't know how to breathe it.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I know, I know, I do know. I hear that.

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Speaker 1: I hear that. Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes.

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Speaker 1: Tell tell me what the tell me, Tell me what

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Speaker 1: the tears want to say. Don't tell me why? Tell

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Speaker 1: me what did the tears want to say? Tell me.

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Speaker 6: You like, yeah, And I.

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Speaker 1: Did what I thought from yes, got to tell you.

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Speaker 4: I want him to grow up? With that can that

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Speaker 4: he wasn't wanted you know, Oh, I think it is

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Speaker 4: I better portrayal.

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Speaker 5: Okay, what is it that you didn't tell him that

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Speaker 5: this might be the source of this, that he had

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Speaker 5: a biological father that wasn't your husband, that you married

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Speaker 5: it six months.

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Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know you ot coftree. I

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Speaker 4: don't know what the problem is. You just keep saying

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Speaker 4: you kept me away from my dad. You killt me

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Speaker 4: away from my dad. I'm like, I do keep you

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Speaker 4: away from your day. You didn't want to be a dad,

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Speaker 4: and so he'll be like, wait.

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Speaker 1: A minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute, Mom,

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Speaker 1: take a breath. Take a breath again. Yeah, take a

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Speaker 1: breath again. Let me go all the way, because this

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Speaker 1: is what I'm hearing you say. You were in college

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Speaker 1: at twenty two, you got prayant. Yeah, when your father

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Speaker 1: approached this young man, he doubted whether he questioned whether

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Speaker 1: or not the child you were carrying what's his. As

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Speaker 1: a result of that, you, I guess, in conjunction with

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Speaker 1: your parents, made the decision to walk away and deny

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Speaker 1: this child access to his father. You weren't really clear

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Speaker 1: whether it was okay, so what was it, because that's

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Speaker 1: what I heard you say. If I got that wrong,

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Speaker 1: he said he didn't know if the child was his.

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Speaker 4: And that was it.

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Speaker 1: Conversation, all right, But you made that choice for your son.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever ask him after the child got here?

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Speaker 1: Do you want to be involved in the child's life.

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Speaker 1: We can do a DNA test, we can do a

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Speaker 1: blood test. Did you ever ask the father that?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 1: Okay, so mother, hear me, no heat, no judgment. I

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Speaker 1: want you to breathe this in. You denied your son

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Speaker 1: access to his father. Nobody's judging you, but you got

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Speaker 1: to own that. You got to start there. Whether your

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Speaker 1: father encouraged you, your mother encouraged me, whether you pull

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Speaker 1: the card out that chrisco. Can you denied your son

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Speaker 1: access to his father based on his initial response to

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Speaker 1: hearing that you were pregnant? Can you own that?

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Speaker 4: I will own it. I hear you. I don't feel

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Speaker 4: like that was my responsibility.

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, if you if you never said to the man,

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Speaker 1: do you want access to your son? A call, a

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Speaker 1: phone card, a call, a postcard. This is your son.

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Speaker 1: We can do a DNA test, but do you want

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Speaker 1: access to him? If you didn't do that, mom, even

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Speaker 1: though it was the best you knew how to do

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Speaker 1: at the time. I get that, I get it, hear me.

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Speaker 1: I get it. I got three children by three different men,

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Speaker 1: so I get as a mom, your first thing is

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Speaker 1: let me protect this child. But you also got to

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Speaker 1: own how you went about protecting the child. You denied

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Speaker 1: your son access to his father. Have you ever forgiven

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Speaker 1: yourself for that? And you did the best you could?

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Speaker 2: Go ahead, Kevin, I'm sorry, no, no, no, I'm just

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Speaker 2: jumping on what you're saying.

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Speaker 5: You know, say space, no judgment, as I always say,

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Speaker 5: Listen that I only saw my father three times from

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Speaker 5: when I was born until I was eight years old.

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Speaker 5: My mother told me that father disowned me and said

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Speaker 5: I'm done. Never saw him again. I made a conscious

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Speaker 5: decision when I was an adult. I wanted to know

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Speaker 5: my father. My mother had a lot of emotions about it.

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Speaker 5: I finally found my father myself after he was dead.

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Speaker 5: I simply needed to know who he was. Didn't mean

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Speaker 5: I wanted to have a relationship with him or his family.

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Speaker 5: I do not, just for the record. Just need to

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Speaker 5: know where I came from, and that was important to me.

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Speaker 5: And I've heard this story from a lot of boys

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Speaker 5: of mothers where there wasn't the best situation between the

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Speaker 5: mother and the father, and the father wasn't there and

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Speaker 5: they were told.

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 5: My next book is on Tupac Shakur, who I knew

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Speaker 5: very well. His mother told him a fainting, I love

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Speaker 5: a fanning, But she told Tupac that his father was dead.

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Speaker 5: Tupac's father showed up when Tupac ended up in jail,

255
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Speaker 5: Tupac's biological father showed up at the prison.

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Speaker 2: Parc was in shock.

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Speaker 5: I thought you were dead, basically, And I think, you know,

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Speaker 5: it's important to understand that that's something that when kids

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Speaker 5: get older, boys, if they don't have father, their biological

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Speaker 5: fathers in their lives, even if they had an amazing father, stepfather,

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Speaker 5: you know, father figure like your husband, there's still something

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Speaker 5: there that's yearning for.

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Speaker 2: Well, who where did I come from?

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Speaker 5: Yes, literally ten years ago this Thanksgiving, I had gotten

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Speaker 5: the information from the genealogists, and I sat there with

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Speaker 5: my mother on Thanksgiving Day, November twenty thirteen, I said, Ma,

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Speaker 5: I found my father, And at first she cursed because

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Speaker 5: she's still hurt by whatever happened with my mother between

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Speaker 5: her and him, I'll.

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Speaker 2: Never know the full story.

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Speaker 5: I don't know because she can't or will not share

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Speaker 5: this full story, right. And then I said he was dead,

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Speaker 5: and she got quiet, and then I said, well, I'm

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Speaker 5: going to have I'm here, I'm going to go. I'm

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Speaker 5: going to go. I'm going to drive to South Carolina

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Speaker 5: with a friend and I'm going to go find the family.

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Speaker 2: And I said I need to do this.

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Speaker 5: For me, and my mother was like, and I think

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Speaker 5: I think my mother felt like I was somehow betraying her.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I was going to go to the other side.

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Speaker 5: And when I got back from that trip, I said, Ma,

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Speaker 5: I need you to understand you raised me. You're the

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Speaker 5: parent that I know, the biological parent that I know.

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Speaker 5: I'm never going to abandon you. I had to do

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Speaker 5: this for myself. I just need you to understand. I

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Speaker 5: need to do know this for myself. I'm an adult now.

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Speaker 5: I need to know this for myself because actually a

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Speaker 5: lot of blanks fulfilled in when I found out who

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Speaker 5: my father was and the background of my father, who

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Speaker 5: his family, well his family was.

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Speaker 2: He explained a lot of things that I needed to know.

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Speaker 2: And that's all it was.

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Speaker 5: You know what I mean, and if the child decided

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Speaker 5: they want to have a relationship with that side, that's

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00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,200
Speaker 5: there right as well as adults. But I think you

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Speaker 5: know where the hurt comes in is not only not

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Speaker 5: being told certain things, but then you know, not being

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Speaker 5: able to figure it out as an adult either, you know,

299
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Speaker 5: not knowing where to go. I literally spent a few

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Speaker 5: years with a genealogy is going back and forth, tryge.

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Speaker 5: All I knew was South Carolina. Well, South Carolina's a

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Speaker 5: big state. I didn't know anything, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: I knew his name, his first name is last name

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Speaker 5: in South Carolina, and we just kind of you know,

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Speaker 5: it was a miracle that I even found my father's family,

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Speaker 5: and you know, I needed to do that.

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Speaker 2: And I'm good, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: I'm good, and I don't have a relationship with them,

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Speaker 5: but I'm good because now I know that's all I needed.

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Speaker 4: And I keep it and I'm fine with it.

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Speaker 1: I know you're not. No, you're not. You're not fine

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Speaker 1: with it because you have confused the boy you slept with,

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Speaker 1: allowed him to worship in the temple of your body,

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Speaker 1: who then denied you and questioned your fidelity. You have

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Speaker 1: him confused with the man who fathered your child. You

316
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Speaker 1: call him a sperm donor. That's the first mistake. He

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Speaker 1: may be a sperm donor to you, but he's the

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Speaker 1: father of your child. And the fact that you have

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Speaker 1: not owned that's where your son is stuck. He's stuck there.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk more about it when we come back. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the r spot. Let's pick up where we

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Speaker 1: left off. He wants to share with you you know

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Speaker 1: what that felt like for him, And you're dismissing him

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Speaker 1: by saying I did what I thought was right. Well,

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Speaker 1: what that translates to, mama is you made a choice

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Speaker 1: for him, which is not the choice that either his

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Speaker 1: father made or that he made for himself. And until

328
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Speaker 1: you can neutralize that, until you can forgive that, your

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Speaker 1: son is going to be stuck. You're not the victim here,

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Speaker 1: he is. You gotta own it. And let me tell

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Speaker 1: you something. I can tell you this because I did it.

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Speaker 1: I did it. I did it to my daughter Jamia.

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Speaker 1: I allowed my husband to raise her and trained her

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Speaker 1: to believe that that was her father, and she was

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Speaker 1: dying of cancer when she found out the truth, and

336
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Speaker 1: I had to own it. I had to own it.

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Speaker 1: And after she died and I read her journals about

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Speaker 1: how devastated she was by that. You gotta own it, mama. Now,

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Speaker 1: had you gone to him and he said, I don't

340
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Speaker 1: want nothing to do with this kid, then you would

341
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Speaker 1: have a leg to stand on.

342
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Speaker 2: Here.

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Speaker 4: I guess on me. I have a lot of times

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Speaker 4: because I didn't walk away, and I'm not gonna run

345
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Speaker 4: in behind anybody. But I hear you. I hear you.

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Speaker 4: I own it.

347
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Speaker 3: I hear you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you gotta go there and forgive yourself for it.

349
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Speaker 1: You gotta forgive yourself for it. You've got to hear that,

350
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Speaker 1: because he and Anne. You know what, Here's here's just

351
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Speaker 1: Mama to mama. This is mama bear to Mama Bear. Okay,

352
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Speaker 1: I don't care what you do, Mama. I don't care

353
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Speaker 1: what you do. If you raise the child, all of

354
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Speaker 1: the excuse my language, all of this shit is gonna

355
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Speaker 1: end up in your lap. I don't care what you do,

356
00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,399
Speaker 1: because you are the most you are the safest place

357
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Speaker 1: for him to fall. He ain't gonna beat his father up.

358
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Speaker 1: He gonna beat you up. That's like the fathers will

359
00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 1: come on the weekend and take the kids to Disneyland,

360
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:58,280
Speaker 1: who take them to the park. They get all the credit.

361
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Speaker 1: My daddy, my daddy, my dad, you know. And the

362
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,280
Speaker 1: mom is there doing laundry and rubbing, cleaning up bloody

363
00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 1: noses and running the PTA meetings. And daddy comes with

364
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:12,959
Speaker 1: two toys a hot dog and he gets all the credit.

365
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Speaker 1: That's just the way it is, MA.

366
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Speaker 4: Yeah, So what do I do? What do I do?

367
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:23,680
Speaker 1: So the first step after you forgive your tell your

368
00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:28,640
Speaker 1: son I was wrong. I was wrong. I hear you,

369
00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: I was wrong. Because until you do that and open

370
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Speaker 1: your heart, he's not going to feel safe, and there's

371
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Speaker 1: no space for him to come in and tell you

372
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Speaker 1: how it feels. His feeling about the experience doesn't make

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Speaker 1: you wrong. Is that right, Kevin?

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Speaker 5: That's right, that's right, you got it. But you have

375
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Speaker 5: to hear him out. How does he feel.

376
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Speaker 1: In addition to Kevin's Grammy nominated album Rosny Shopping with

377
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 1: My Mama with My Mother, I want you to get

378
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,439
Speaker 1: that and listen to those pieces, particularly the piece about

379
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Speaker 1: his mother, because I don't think your son knows your story.

380
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,080
Speaker 1: I don't think he knows your story as a woman,

381
00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:19,200
Speaker 1: not as his mother, and find a way to be happy.

382
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Kevin's father was dead. Your son has

383
00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,959
Speaker 1: an opportunity to build a relationship. Heal a relationship with

384
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Speaker 1: his father, which is gonna heal a hole in his soul.

385
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: Whether you like it or not. He needs his father,

386
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 1: even if he ends up hating him because he's a

387
00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 1: scoundrel and a scallywag, he has to come to that.

388
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,280
Speaker 1: He's building a relationship with his father. You have to

389
00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:49,959
Speaker 1: build a relationship with this young man. Be happy for him.

390
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: So many men don't ever have that experience. Yeah, that

391
00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 1: they get to have it? Is that accurate, Kevin?

392
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Speaker 2: That's accurate.

393
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 5: When I was at the boys conference here this weekend,

394
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 5: four hundred boys there, three quarters so they didn't know

395
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Speaker 5: their fathers when they asked them to raise their hands.

396
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: You haven't done anything wrong, but the choices that you made,

397
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 1: even the choices that you were guided to make by

398
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,640
Speaker 1: your parents, have had a negative impact on your son.

399
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: That's what I want you to own. Does that make sense?

400
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 4: I mean, it's the truth. So, I mean I just

401
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 4: got to look at it in a different way. For me,

402
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 4: it was never about him, not normal. I guess I

403
00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 4: just wanted to make sure that he was solid.

404
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:34,040
Speaker 6: But I hear you.

405
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,160
Speaker 4: Saying that he could never be solid or complete until

406
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 4: he knew where he came from. I wasn't, but I

407
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,359
Speaker 4: guess I was getting the opportunity to do it, and

408
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 4: I didn't do it. I just feel like I should

409
00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,960
Speaker 4: have been the one to make the introduction. But I

410
00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 4: get it. I missed my mark and that's what you said,

411
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 4: so I have to own that as well.

412
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Speaker 1: That's not accurate. I can't let you beat yourself up.

413
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 1: You did what you did back then. Don't blame yourself

414
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 1: for what you did back then. I just want you

415
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 1: to understand how it's showing up now. Yeah, but you're

416
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,720
Speaker 1: beating yourself up and that's not going to go overwhelm

417
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: in terms of you building a relationship with your son.

418
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,600
Speaker 1: Don't beat yourself up for what you did back then.

419
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: Just come current with who you are now. You were

420
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: twenty two, then you're forty eight. Now. Oh okay, I

421
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: see now. The choice that I made was based on

422
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: how I felt then and not necessarily what was best

423
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 1: for my son, got it, Okay. I wouldn't do that today.

424
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 1: Please don't beat yourself up.

425
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 5: Please, And you have an opportunity telling you that a

426
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 5: lot of mothers, like my mother for example. You just

427
00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:48,400
Speaker 5: you have the emotional tools, the fact that you're even

428
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 5: able to engage in this kind of conversation with us.

429
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,240
Speaker 5: A lot of us in our communities don't even have that.

430
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 5: You know, I wish I could have this kind of

431
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 5: conversation with my mother. It's just, you know, a lot

432
00:23:57,800 --> 00:23:59,400
Speaker 5: of us just shut down. Well that's in the past.

433
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 5: I want to talk is over? What's the point?

434
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,919
Speaker 2: You know, and you have a gift. Do you have

435
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 2: gifts to be able to do this?

436
00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 5: Don't take that for granted, you know, because I still

437
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 5: have to fill This is part of reas why I'm

438
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 5: a writer. I have to kind of fill in the

439
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 5: blanks for myself, like you know, what is this where

440
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 5: I get second hand information for other relatives. You know,

441
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 5: you literally can have this conversation directly with your son,

442
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 5: and I guarantee it'll be transformative, like a Yana's advising.

443
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 5: It's how you come to the conversation. You know, so

444
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 5: many sons who actually would love to be to talk

445
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 5: with their mothers. Trust me on that, I'm one of them.

446
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 5: I've had this conversation with other boys son of mothers,

447
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:37,240
Speaker 5: and we really want to be of a conversation.

448
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, as mothers, we get so caught up in

449
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,160
Speaker 1: the doing. You know, make sure they're fed, make sure

450
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 1: they go to school, make sure they're success, make sure

451
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:49,000
Speaker 1: that they don't disrespect. Now, we get so caught up

452
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 1: in the doing. The third world reality to the one

453
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: thing our heart want, our sons want from us more

454
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:56,680
Speaker 1: than anything, is our heart.

455
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

456
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: Give him your heart. Yeah, give him your heart. When

457
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 1: I stopped mothering my son and started being his friend

458
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: and started dealing with him as an adult, our whole

459
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 1: relationship chain. My son would deep drink my dirty bath water,

460
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: but you know what, he would do it on some

461
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 1: ice with a chaser. Okay, do you believe that your

462
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: relationship with your son can be healed?

463
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 4: I do.

464
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 1: Don't be in a hurry. It may not happen before Christmas.

465
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: It may not happen, you know, get yourself cleaned up.

466
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,200
Speaker 1: This boy lived in your body. He's not going nowhere.

467
00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,720
Speaker 1: He's not He's not going anywhere. Don't be so desperate

468
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 1: and in a rush. Give it time so that once

469
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: you heal it up and once you rebuild this relationship

470
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: it's built on a solid foundation. Go get you a

471
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: counselor a therapist to help you clean this stuff up

472
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: because you can't do it by yourself. It's too old

473
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:02,480
Speaker 1: now you cannot.

474
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you so much.

475
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:05,439
Speaker 2: Thank you.

476
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: Hold on to the belief that my relationship with my

477
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 1: son will be healed. Just that period, my relationship with

478
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: my son will be healed. Holy Spirit, show me how gotten? Period?

479
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: Thank you, Miss Latania, Thank you, Bye bye, Thank you, Kevin.

480
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:29,720
Speaker 1: We got one more.

481
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 5: Mom.

482
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 1: I want to expose it to you. I know I'm

483
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: holding you forever, but I think it's a valuable conversation. Okay, greetings,

484
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: you're a mom. Are you in love with or in

485
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: breakdown with your son? Which one?

486
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 6: Our relationship is in breakdown?

487
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 1: Okay, tell me what's happening. Mama, tell me what's happening.

488
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: How old is your son?

489
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,919
Speaker 6: My oldest is in is twenty three, and that's the

490
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 6: one that the relationship is in breakdown.

491
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: What happened?

492
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 6: So what's going on right now? Most recently is he

493
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:11,800
Speaker 6: is struggling with substance use and I am trying to

494
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 6: figure out how to be present and support him. I

495
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:24,719
Speaker 6: separated and divorced from my children's father in about twenty

496
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 6: twenty and that is where the biggest breakdown and the

497
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 6: disconnect really started with us. So we don't really have

498
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 6: any contact. He's very angry with me when we do

499
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 6: have contact, when things come up around the substance use,

500
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 6: or he has been hospitalized and things like that. When

501
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 6: I try to talk to him about trying to get help,

502
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 6: then that's when the explosion comes and he blames a

503
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 6: lot of stuff on me. He blames he's angry with

504
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 6: me about my separation from his father. And so the

505
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 6: struggle that I find is some of the things that

506
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 6: he is angry with me about that he expresses are

507
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 6: have come from.

508
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: His father, such as tell me as.

509
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 6: Such as he So once when we first got separated,

510
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 6: all three boys came and lived with me. My oldest

511
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 6: son was eighteen at the time. He was very angry,

512
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 6: so he would be combative in the household. He would

513
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,479
Speaker 6: you know, not be responsive. And I found out that

514
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 6: he was having conversations with his dad that once his

515
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,479
Speaker 6: father got settled, he would go live with him. And

516
00:28:41,560 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 6: so that fueled almost like this idea that like, I

517
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 6: only have to deal with you until I go with

518
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 6: my dad. So ultimately we got to things came to

519
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 6: a head, and I told I called him and called

520
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 6: his dad, and I said, if that's the plan, then

521
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 6: you need to come get him and he needs to

522
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 6: come stay with you at that same time. Such as

523
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 6: an example is I was about to do our taxes

524
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 6: and his father had previously done our taxes as a family,

525
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,239
Speaker 6: so I didn't know that his father was allowing him

526
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 6: to file taxes separate. So when I am now on

527
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 6: my own and go to file taxes, he has decided

528
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 6: in his mind that I sold his W two's and I,

529
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 6: you know, did his taxes and lied to him when

530
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 6: I'm doing it as all of y'all are children under

531
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 6: my roof, but him being the oldest, he had been

532
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 6: with us all his life, you know, Me and his

533
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 6: father was all he knew. And then COVID hit. So

534
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 6: I think it was just like a perfect storm of trauma,

535
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 6: of grief, of all of these things. He had an

536
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 6: involuntary commitment for ten days in the behavioral health hospital.

537
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 6: They released him to a residential program in our town,

538
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 6: and by that night he left because it was voluntary,

539
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 6: so he packed up in the.

540
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 4: Middle of the night.

541
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 6: He said, you know, he didn't like the place. He

542
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 6: didn't feel comfortable. He doesn't need any help. He's not

543
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 6: an addict. He said all of these things, and he said,

544
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 6: you know, I'm going to just get a job, and

545
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 6: I don't want to be there, and so he is

546
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 6: not open to get in help.

547
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: When did you become aware that he was engaged in

548
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 1: substance abuse? How old was he?

549
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 6: So I became aware twenty twenty twenty one, So he

550
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 6: was nineteen. I became aware. This would have been two

551
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 6: almost three, thanksgivens Ago. I became aware it was on

552
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 6: a thanksgiven it was twenty twenty one.

553
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: You know that age, that eighteen nineteen year old age.

554
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: Identity versus identity confusion. The question that comes up in

555
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: the soul to be answered is who am I? Where

556
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: am I going? So unfortunately the divorce happened at that

557
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: time when he's asking, okay, who am I? And where

558
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 1: am I going? Am I going to my father? Am

559
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 1: I going to my mother? I would also, I could

560
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: be very wrong. I'm always willing to be wrong that

561
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 1: in your role in the family was to keep everything together.

562
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: You made sure everybody got everything, everything was done. You

563
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: had a very profound organizing role in the family. Would

564
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: that be accurate? You were the dominant voice in the family.

565
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: So when the divorce came, the question on your son's

566
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: mind is why can't you fix this? You donet fixed

567
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 1: everything else, fix this, you know. So Kevin talked to her.

568
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shut up because you shared it. If you're

569
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: open to it, talk about your drinking, what drove you there,

570
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 1: What was going on in your mind to help this

571
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,400
Speaker 1: mother understand? You know, all the talking, all the beaten

572
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 1: pleading in the world is not going to help him

573
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: until he gets to where you got.

574
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 2: I was depressed. I was.

575
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 5: I was in the middle of a deep depression for

576
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 5: about four or five years, uh not coincidentally a Yana

577
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 5: and call her it paralleled when tupacin Biggie got killed

578
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 5: and I was doing all right. I was at Vibe magazine,

579
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 5: as you said, during that time of Yana, but I

580
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 5: was going through it. And what started off is just

581
00:32:26,840 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 5: casual drinking turned into drinking, waking up, drinking, going to sleep,

582
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 5: drinking in the middle of the day, drinking, drinking, drinking.

583
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 5: It was bad, you know, it was very bad at times,

584
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 5: and I just didn't feel good about myself. And it

585
00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 5: was the only thing that helped me to cope at

586
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:51,560
Speaker 5: times from day to day. You know, my relationship with

587
00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 5: my mother wasn't great at that time.

588
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: Definitely.

589
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 5: My father didn't know my father was dying at the time,

590
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 5: you know, at all. He was just not there in

591
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 5: my life. Unhealthy relationships. I felt very alone. I felt

592
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,480
Speaker 5: very alone in the bottle the liquor. That addiction is

593
00:33:09,520 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 5: all I had, honestly that I thought I had. I'm

594
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:17,200
Speaker 5: not sure I didn't go to treatment. By the grace

595
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 5: of God, I went cold turkey and was able to stop.

596
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: But what got you there? What got you to that

597
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 1: moment when you said, I've got to stop this? What

598
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: got you there?

599
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:27,520
Speaker 2: Wow?

600
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 5: Well, my doctor, for some reason, I still had the

601
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 5: wordithal to go get physicals. My doctor said to me,

602
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 5: the pace that you're on, you're going to destroy your

603
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 5: liver one day, You're going to destroy yourself. And it

604
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 5: made me think back to some elders I had met

605
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 5: who told me that they had paid a price. One

606
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 5: elder in particular, that he had paid a price for

607
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 5: the excesses of his youth, and that blew my mind.

608
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 5: You know, I think I was scared that I was

609
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 5: drinking myself toward early death.

610
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 2: Caller mother and Yanna. I felt worthless. I hear you,

611
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:03,959
Speaker 2: I hear you.

612
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 5: I had to find a reason to live again. And

613
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 5: I'm quite sure what it was. It was a combination

614
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 5: of things and I had to find some joy in

615
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 5: my life, you know, and call it I think, you know,

616
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 5: I think, not just treatment for the addiction, but you

617
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 5: know one thing going back to therapy that helped me.

618
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 5: The therapist asked me, said to me, therapist ahead at

619
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 5: the time, said what were the things that made you

620
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 5: happy in your life? And I would say something like

621
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 5: sports and music, whatever it was. And they the person

622
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 5: said to me, I need you to bring those things

623
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 5: center to your life. I need you to start centering

624
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 5: joy war than you centers sadness. You know, you can't

625
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 5: just sit in this. I mean, it was so bad.

626
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 5: Even the music that I listened to was the most

627
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 5: depressing music.

628
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 2: It was. Everything was just depressing. It was bad.

629
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: Mama. I have a solution for you, and you are

630
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 1: probably not going to like it. Are you ready? Okay,

631
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: we'll do it right after this break. Welcome back to

632
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: the R spot. Let's get back to the conversation. Hear me, mama,

633
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: and as a mama, he is gonna be mad at you.

634
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: It's all the shit is always gonna end up in

635
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: your lap because his heartstrings are tied to your being.

636
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: You are his god with a small g You are

637
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 1: his God. You gotta understand that. And so many mothers

638
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: don't understand that because he lived in your body. I

639
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: want you to hear this, Mama. He is gonna blame you.

640
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: He is because you are his heart. Your son does

641
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 1: not feel good about himself. Your son is sad. Your

642
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: son is an overwhelmed. That's what depression is is trying

643
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: to convince yourself that you are something or can do

644
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: something that you don't believe you are or can do.

645
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: That's the definition of overwhelm. Your son feels alone, your

646
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,960
Speaker 1: son feels worthless. And hear me, Mama, clutch your pearls

647
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,399
Speaker 1: right now. There is nothing you can do about it

648
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 1: until he chooses. So, Ma, you gotta let him go.

649
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: You gotta let him fall. He's got to hit rock bottom,

650
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,359
Speaker 1: and remember that God made the rock. You gotta let

651
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 1: him go. I know, cry, weep your heart out, weep

652
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 1: it out, MA, let that fear out. But the prayers

653
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: of a mother never go unanswered. You let him go. Physically,

654
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,399
Speaker 1: but you pray every day, you wake up thanking God

655
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,680
Speaker 1: for his recovery. You go to bed thanking God for

656
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: his recovery. Let him fall. If you keep breaking the fall,

657
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 1: he will never fall low enough for God to lift

658
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: him up. There's nothing you can say that's going to

659
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: make him feel good about himself because he's mad at you.

660
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: You are the object of his up. There's nothing you

661
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 1: can do that's gonna lift his sadness. He feels worthless mind.

662
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: There's nothing you can do about that. And you didn't

663
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: do anything wrong. This is his journey, his spiritual curriculum.

664
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: Look at Kevin, Look at him. Kevin Powell talking to you,

665
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: wrote a book and honoring and an album honoring his

666
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: mother because he chose to do the work to get

667
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:23,320
Speaker 1: it together.

668
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,439
Speaker 6: I hear you saying that this is his journey and

669
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:32,120
Speaker 6: that it's not in my hands physically, but I can pray.

670
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 1: Yes, one of the worst things that a son can do,

671
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: My son told me this. His greatest fear in life

672
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: was disappointing me. So every time I voiced my disappointment,

673
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 1: it crushed his soul. And that's why he stayed away

674
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: from me. When he was selling drugs when he was

675
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: stealing cars. He stayed away from me because he didn't

676
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: want to experience my disappointment. Be glad he's staying. He's

677
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,359
Speaker 1: trying to save his soul.

678
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 6: MA.

679
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, let yourself weep, let yourself cry. You know

680
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,760
Speaker 1: I'm you know, I'm a hardcore healer. So I allowed

681
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:31,839
Speaker 1: myself to see my daughter laying in her casket three

682
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 1: years before she died, because that fear of that happening

683
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 1: to her made me pound her. You gotta do this,

684
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: you gotta do that, You better do this, you better

685
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:47,399
Speaker 1: do that, And that was crushing her right. So once

686
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: I got through that, I could be go ahead.

687
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,439
Speaker 6: I was gonna say so recently, like the substance thing

688
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 6: is one thing, but it's like a perfect storm. Like

689
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 6: I said, so, he was born with the condition. He

690
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 6: has tumors in his brain, in his heart, but he

691
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 6: never had any symptoms. And just recently, the time before

692
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 6: the last that he was hospitalized, he had a major

693
00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,879
Speaker 6: seizure and that it was triggered. I don't know what

694
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 6: triggered it, but he always had like the tumors that

695
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 6: could trigger it. So I'm thinking the combination of like lifestyle,

696
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 6: the drugs, not eat and not taking care of itself.

697
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 6: So he had the seizure and his kidneys were failing,

698
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:37,399
Speaker 6: and then they released him from the hospital. So it

699
00:39:37,440 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 6: was like almost not that I had accepted that he

700
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:42,320
Speaker 6: was using the substance, but I had sort of come

701
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 6: to the grips that like I can't do anything about that,

702
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 6: Like he has to turn around for that. But recently

703
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 6: now it has been like, have you gone into neprologist?

704
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 6: Have you done this? Have you done that? Because it's

705
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 6: just so many things.

706
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, Kevin, what did you need your mom to say

707
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: to you? Yeah? Yeah you do, Kevin. What did you

708
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: need your mother to say to you when you were drinking?

709
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: How could she have supported you when you were drinking?

710
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: If I could have gotten anything, it was what I

711
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: said earlier. I wish I could have.

712
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,359
Speaker 5: Just known that if I wanted to come home, I

713
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,239
Speaker 5: could that. If I needed just a hug, I could

714
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 5: get it. If I needed a place to get help,

715
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:28,879
Speaker 5: I could have gotten that.

716
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 2: You know what I mean. I felt very very alone

717
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:35,000
Speaker 2: and afraid.

718
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 1: So, Ma, let me hear your prayer for your son.

719
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: What is your prayer for your son? I want to

720
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 1: hear it.

721
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, God, I just ask you.

722
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 3: Color Nicholas.

723
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 6: I asked you to meet him in the places.

724
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 4: He has needs.

725
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 6: Ask you to prop him up, just remind him of

726
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 6: who he is, where he's come from. I actually to

727
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 6: touch his heart, to let him know that he has loved.

728
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:27,240
Speaker 6: He's smart, he's funny, he's.

729
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 3: A big brother, he's an amazing son. I just ask

730
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 3: you to bring those things back to his awareness. I

731
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 3: ask you to keep him if he ends up in

732
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 3: dark places, and I just ask you to allow him

733
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 3: to walk his journey and fulfill his destiny and just

734
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 3: find what he needs to love, the compassion, the purpose,

735
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 3: to ask you to walk alongside of him and just

736
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,760
Speaker 3: keep him. That's my prayer.

737
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: Okay, So that's a frightened mother's prayer. That's a nice prayer.

738
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: But I'm going to tell you how to pray like

739
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: a mother who has a connection to God. Okay, I'm

740
00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: going to speak this into your spirit, and knowing that

741
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 1: because Nicholas lived in your body, it's also speaking into

742
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: his spirit, the precious Lord of the universe, that whom

743
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: we call God, Source Creator. By all the names you

744
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: are known, I know that you know Nicholas. He was

745
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 1: your son before he was my son. I know that

746
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: when you're shaped and formed Nicholas in my wound, that

747
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,960
Speaker 1: you had a plan for him. You had a vision

748
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: for him, you had a purpose for his life. And

749
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,839
Speaker 1: I know that, no matter what it looks like right now, God,

750
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: that plan is unfolded. Now God, I confess it looks

751
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: a little strange to me. But because I know you

752
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: are in charge, and I know you are with Nicholas,

753
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: and I know you are in Nicholas, I know that plan,

754
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 1: your plan for his peace, for his safety, for his health,

755
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: for his strength, is unfolding. So God, quiet my spirit,

756
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: quiet my mind, open my eyes so that I can

757
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,920
Speaker 1: see you working in as and through Nicholas according to

758
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: your purpose and your plan. I know that right where

759
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: Nicholas is, the fullness of You is. God. I know

760
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 1: that your wisdom is there. I know that your wholeness

761
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: is there. I know that your truth is there, and

762
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: I know that you are waking it up in every

763
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:40,879
Speaker 1: cell in Nicholas's body. Even though it looks a little

764
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: strange to me, because it looks strange to me, God,

765
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 1: it looks strange to me, I confess that. So I

766
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: ask you, I ask you, God, to strengthen me. Strengthen

767
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,880
Speaker 1: me so that I can see your outworking in Nicholas's life.

768
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: Quiet me, God, so that my fear, my worry, my

769
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 1: disbelief doesn't get in your way. Hold me, God, so

770
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:15,040
Speaker 1: that when you bring Nicholas falling into my arms, I

771
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,759
Speaker 1: can be for him who you would have me be.

772
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 1: Now I speak these words God, believing that as I

773
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 1: ask and believe, it is done. So I'm going to

774
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 1: say thank you right now, thank you, thank you, thank you.

775
00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: As strange as it looks, as weird as it looks,

776
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:37,120
Speaker 1: as frightened as I am in my mothering worry, I'm

777
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 1: going to say thank you right now God that your

778
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:44,840
Speaker 1: plan is unfolding according to your will, and Nicholas is

779
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 1: safe in your arms. I am so grateful. I let

780
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: it be. And Amen, Amen? How about that?

781
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 6: Yeah, you don't have.

782
00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 1: To ask God, you have to remind yourself.

783
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 6: I think.

784
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,320
Speaker 1: Strength to you, Mama. Keep praying from a place of knowing,

785
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,799
Speaker 1: be open to all possibilities, and just to know that

786
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:11,799
Speaker 1: God is in charge.

787
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 5: Yes, thank you, Okay, thank you, thank you, thank you.

788
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 1: Woo. One of them ways that a man learns his

789
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: strength is by falling and picking himself up. I could

790
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: be wrong. My brother was cross addicted to drugs and alcohol,

791
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: and very often I served as his mother, and he

792
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 1: called me when he needed I say, you know what,

793
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,400
Speaker 1: you are a grown man. You need to handle your basics.

794
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,759
Speaker 1: Don't call me for rent money. Don't call me for

795
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 1: light bill money, don't call me for corfee to get

796
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 1: to work. You're man. You got to handle that. Now

797
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 1: you want some soda or some cigarettes, call me. I'll

798
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: give you some soda money. I'm not handling your base.

799
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: You handle that. Because I didn't see him as deficient

800
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: and defective. I saw him as challenged and having some difficulty,

801
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 1: but he had to make the choice for that. I'll

802
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: take care of the frills. You handle the basics. I

803
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: ain't paying your rent. You grown ass man. Now, maybe

804
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 1: that was wrong, but that's how I handled it.

805
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 5: My mama practiced that kind of love, and you know,

806
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 5: I was resentful of it at the time, but it

807
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 5: actually helped me to figure out some things because I

808
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 5: had to figure out how to get.

809
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: Up on my own. And I would include even when

810
00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: I was abusing alcohol.

811
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,759
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, because if you hadn't figured it out

812
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: on your own, you would be both co dependent on

813
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: her and resentful of her.

814
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 4: Yeah.

815
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: A man has to be able to fall and pick

816
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,640
Speaker 1: himself up. Otherwise he will never trust his own strength.

817
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: He won't. Yeah, on behalf of your mother and the

818
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: mothers out there, Kevin, I want to say to you,

819
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: forgive us, forgive me, forgive me for not recognizing and

820
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:16,919
Speaker 1: I say this to you. I say this to my son.

821
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:19,239
Speaker 1: I say this to my grandsons and now my great

822
00:47:19,280 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: grandsons for not recognizing how my mouth, my voice is

823
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: attached to the strings of your heart because the mother's

824
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: heartbeat was the first sound that you heard. The second

825
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 1: sound was a voice, and not understanding that every word

826
00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: that issued forth from my mouth makes an impression and imprint,

827
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 1: sometimes a cut in your heart, which then affects your

828
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:50,320
Speaker 1: emotional being, which then affects how you interact with women.

829
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: Forgive me, forgive us for being ignorant to the power

830
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: that we have as mother's. Forgive us, Kevin, and I

831
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 1: hear you.

832
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do. What's profound about what you're saying.

833
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,440
Speaker 5: I have long one to say publicly two black women,

834
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 5: I apologize, and I've done it in different ways. I've

835
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 5: done it privately because, as Malcolm X once said, famously.

836
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 5: It becomes a very vicious cycle because I know what

837
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 5: my mother's daddy did to her and her four girls

838
00:48:21,719 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 5: and a boy, and what they went out into the

839
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 5: world and put out there because of what happened to them.

840
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 5: But I feel like, you know, and this is for

841
00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 5: all human beings, but you're right when you talk about

842
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 5: black people specifically, a black and brown people specifically, we

843
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 5: don't have these kind of conversations enough. And that's why,

844
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 5: like a yella, when I watched that, I've been watching

845
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 5: reading you for a long time.

846
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 2: Sister, But for some reason that DMX interview.

847
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: That's what he did, That's what Tupac did, That's what

848
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 1: Biggie did, That's what a public enemy did. They could

849
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,879
Speaker 1: craft it into a form of artistry that hip hop

850
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: became because they didn't have the emotional vocabulary to do

851
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:06,560
Speaker 1: it one on one like this. And the other thing is,

852
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: and I'm saying this to mothers, is very often what

853
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 1: we projected onto our sons. Our fear, our doubt, our

854
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 1: disappointment caused them to doubt themselves, and hip hop gave

855
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: them a way to express and experience themselves in a

856
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,239
Speaker 1: much stronger, more powerful way. Because of the doubt that

857
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: was cast on them, because of the fear that was

858
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 1: cast on them. And again, moms, or you moms out there,

859
00:49:39,920 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: you didn't do anything wrong. We did what we did.

860
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 1: Do what we thought was best, doesn't mean it was best.

861
00:49:48,560 --> 00:49:51,319
Speaker 1: We did what we thought was best based on the

862
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: ways that we were wounded. Thank you, Kevin Powell. I

863
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: love you, I appreciate you. Good luck to you. I'm

864
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: your Yeay, your mama and your auntie called me anytime.

865
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Speaker 2: I love you, and I appreciate you for having me here.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: And to the R Spot is listening, I say to you,

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Speaker 1: stay in peace, not in pieces. Fine. The R Spot

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Speaker 1: is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shondaland Audio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.