1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. We're continuing on with our 2 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: countdown of the top ten most listened to and downloaded 3 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: episodes of Bodybacks over this past year, and it has 4 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: been an absolute thrill to bring you all of these 5 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,479 Speaker 1: cases and to reveal some of the insight into the 6 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: forensics behind the deaths of everyone that we talk about. 7 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: But without further ado, let's get on to episode six. 8 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:49,680 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks, Dave. I 9 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,519 Speaker 1: got to tell you, out of all of these cases 10 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: that are contained within our top ten cases that we'll 11 00:00:57,160 --> 00:01:04,319 Speaker 1: be commenting on, this is the one that I feel 12 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: the most grief over. It's the one that I take. 13 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: I don't know. If I could sit around, I think 14 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: in ashes and sackcloth and scream to the heavens in grief, 15 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 1: it would probably be over this particular case. And it's 16 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: because of an innocent a truly purely innocent and defenseless 17 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: child was murdered. And it's not just about her murder. 18 00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: It's also the fact that her little precious body was 19 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: defiled in the way that it was defiled. And of course, 20 00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: you know you have to know I'm talking about Harmony Montgomery. 21 00:01:56,680 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: And if there is a name that I don't cuss 22 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: a lot, I don't use a lot of bad language. 23 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: I try not to. However, this is this person's name 24 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: is up there with the most vile words that I 25 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: could ever sum up, and that's Adam Montgomery. I think 26 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:19,799 Speaker 1: that he is just evil, pure evil, that he would 27 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: have done this to this precious baby. And you know, 28 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: and our friends responded to this episode, I think like 29 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,120 Speaker 1: none other because we've been covering it for so long 30 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: in the news and with Nancy and and I just felt, 31 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: I felt compelled that we needed to say something. And 32 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: boy did we. 33 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: You know, when the case of Harmony Montgomery was first 34 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: brought to our attention, she was missing, it was and 35 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: that's how it came to my desk. It was would 36 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 2: you check into to see what's going on? Because if 37 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 2: you can imagine, on a daily basis, there are stories, 38 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 2: crime stories that we look covering and determine, you know, 39 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 2: where we're going to invest our time today in a 40 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: particular story. And whenever there's a child, and you know 41 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 2: how Nancy is about this. Sometimes you know, the only 42 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 2: voice a child has sticking up for them is hers 43 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 2: and her voice. That's why when it gets really frustrating 44 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 2: when people mock or make fun of or pick at 45 00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 2: her because she is at the top of the totem 46 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: pole when it comes to coverage. But you know, we 47 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 2: cover a lot of these people get attention because of 48 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: Nancy Grace, pure and simple. She is passionate, she's very 49 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 2: honest in how she deals with this, and she wants 50 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 2: to know what happened because nobody is standing up for 51 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 2: this child. And we have found this out many times, 52 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: whether it's a five year old or a fifteen year old, 53 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,880 Speaker 2: many of these young people who end up dead didn't 54 00:03:52,880 --> 00:03:57,760 Speaker 2: have anybody standing in the standing up for them, defending them. 55 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: And I will tell you that a child needs an 56 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: adult that actually cares about them as a as a child, 57 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 2: not somebody who sees them as a as a battering 58 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 2: ram to hurt their ex spouse. Too often children become 59 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 2: pawns in a battle over what it's called custody and 60 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 2: has nothing to do with custody. It has to do 61 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 2: with hurting your ex. 62 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, let me let me take that a step further, 63 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: and I will say this, and I don't care who 64 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: gets offended by it. You know, you talk about how 65 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: sometimes abusers, many times abusers will use the child as 66 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 1: a battering ram. Let me tell you who else uses children. 67 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 1: That's the Department of Family and Children's Services, because they 68 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: dehumanize by just looking and regarding children as merely a number. 69 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,839 Speaker 1: And David, I don't I don't know if any case 70 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: that we have covered that ascends to that level of 71 00:05:04,040 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 1: where you could actually see how broken the system is. 72 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,279 Speaker 1: You know, I try to tell people all the time 73 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: based upon what I saw work in a medical examiner's office. 74 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: You know, I'd work cases involving small children that had 75 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: died of neglecting a home, and there might be four 76 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: other siblings in that same home, and guess what, they 77 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:31,760 Speaker 1: all had different caseworkers, and so you didn't have a 78 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 1: central person that was held to task for the welfare 79 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 1: of that family. And I know that it's the parent's responsibility, 80 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: but look, there's a practical aspect of this. The parents 81 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 1: don't care many times, and so who's your fallback position, Well, 82 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: it's going to be the state. And they fled, They 83 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: failed Harmony Montgomery miserably and. 84 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 2: So bad in fact, that as we dig into this 85 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,839 Speaker 2: very quickly, there are changes being made to the laws 86 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 2: where they're dealing with this in New Hampshire. But every 87 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,400 Speaker 2: time a case like this happens, there's a lot of 88 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 2: public speeches made about what needs to be changed and 89 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: how did this happen and blah blah blah, and ultimately, 90 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 2: unless you get something done quickly, it fades, it goes away. 91 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 2: You know it's something else. But in this particular case, 92 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 2: Harmony Montgomery, when we first came to the case, Harmony 93 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:31,919 Speaker 2: Montgomery is a five year old special needs child. 94 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:32,559 Speaker 1: Blind. 95 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, now the pictures she has glasses on, Joe. 96 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 2: Did she have some vision? 97 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, she did have some vision, but one eye she 98 00:06:41,279 --> 00:06:45,480 Speaker 1: was completely sightless in Okay, And so she's look, Dave, 99 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: I mean, we see this precious little face. Still, I'll 100 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 1: never It's a face that is always burned into my 101 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: memory now. And I was a kid that grew up 102 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: with glasses, had them since I was very young, still 103 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,760 Speaker 1: wear them day, And I know how hard it was 104 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: for me, even as a ten year old, keeping up 105 00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: with glasses. Can you imagine you're blind since birth and 106 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: you have to keep up She's five days, right, she's five, 107 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: and she has to keep up with a pair of glasses. 108 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's just one little thing there where we're 109 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: talking about how she is so dependent on those in 110 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: her little environment. 111 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:32,280 Speaker 2: The Department of Children, Youth and Families, the DCYF and 112 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 2: police go to the last known address. They don't live 113 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,600 Speaker 2: there anymore. The family, the Montgomery family, does not live 114 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 2: at this address. They call DCYF, Hey, you know what's 115 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 2: going on with this child? And that's how we got 116 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 2: this story missing child in New Hampshire and it was 117 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: because the mom hadn't talked to her. You know, at 118 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: that point it was almost two years and you're going, 119 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 2: why did you wait two years to call? Why did 120 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: it take this long? And again I mentioned there were 121 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: plenty of excuses going on here. I'm not blaming or 122 00:08:04,080 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 2: letting anybody loose, but the bottom line is she was 123 00:08:07,040 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: missing two years before anybody said anything. 124 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, this is one of those cases, Dave, 125 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: where I lose hope pretty quickly because I'm so jaded 126 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: in such a cynic. When we have cases that come 127 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 1: up with missing, missing kids, missing anybody, anybody that's missing, 128 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 1: and you hear it and people are coming on the news, 129 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: I'll be one of the first ones to say they're dead. Okay. 130 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: For some reason, with the Harmony of Montgomery case, I 131 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: continue to hold out hope. I was hoping that they 132 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: would find her somewhere and that I wouldn't have to comment, 133 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: because you know, the only time, like I'm brought onto 134 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: these shows that I deal with Nancy is most of 135 00:08:52,880 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: the time somebody is going to be deceased. And I 136 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: kept hoping that I was not going to have to 137 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: be further involved in this case. But when it came out, 138 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: just the pathological findings relative to harmony and what she 139 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: had endured, and you've got things everything from they're living 140 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: in a car dave in New Hampshire, a sea ring 141 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: by the way, which is a convertible. I'm thinking exposure, 142 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: all right, and this has been a long term thing. 143 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: You know, how do you stay warm in this thing? Secondly, 144 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: there is this kind of reactionary abuse that occurs when 145 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: she soils herself. Now, this child is a special needs 146 00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: child and they're all cramped together. You've got a person, 147 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: two people that have a drug dependency issue, and so 148 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: many times you can have frustration over an absence of 149 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: drugs that you need, and that reactive response is if 150 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:58,679 Speaker 1: the child does anything they're going to get slapped or 151 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: knocked around, and that's the case with Harmony. She soiled 152 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: herself in the back of this raggedy old car in 153 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: freezing New Hampshire, and Adam Montgomery struck her and probably 154 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: struck her multiple times over the course of her little 155 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: life because he didn't have the ability to show restraint 156 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: in any way and certainly didn't have the ability. He 157 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: was absent of mercy and compassion when it came to 158 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 1: this baby. And you know, and then you think that 159 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: she just she just kind of drifts to sleep. 160 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 2: Well, Joe, Yeah, the affidavit. The affidavit says this Caylen 161 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 2: Montgomery was Adam Montgomery's wife at the time that they're 162 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:47,560 Speaker 2: in the seabring and Kaylea is in the back seat, 163 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 2: I mean Harmony is in the backseat. Caylen Montgomery described 164 00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: what took place, and this is what she said. She 165 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: described that Harmony was in the rear seat of the 166 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 2: passenger side and while Adam was driving, he turned his 167 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 2: body and delivered sets of three to four blows with 168 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 2: a closed fist to Harmony's face and head on three 169 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 2: separate occasions over the course of a few minutes. Kayles 170 00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: stated that after the final blow, Adam said words to 171 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 2: the effect that he felt something or heard something when 172 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 2: he hit Harmony and said, quote, I think I really 173 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: hurt her this time. I think I did something. 174 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 1: Yeah. What could he have felt? Well, he probably felt 175 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,719 Speaker 1: her body no longer having the rigidity, that kind of 176 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: rigid response that you get when you hit somebody. Finally, 177 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: she's collapsing. She has no reactive response to these strikes, 178 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: probably the last one that blow he dealt her. And 179 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: of course we'll never know, now, will we, Dave, Because 180 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: we can't go back to look at Harmony's body, because, 181 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 1: as it turned out, he had been literally inserting southernism here, 182 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: toting her body around. They had as a familial group, 183 00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: been toting her body around in a gym. 184 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:16,680 Speaker 2: Bag and. 185 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and he had placed her in the trunk 186 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 1: for a while. So finally, you know, in this this 187 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: bizarre I don't I don't really know how to frame 188 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: it or describe it. Uh, you know, thinking about how 189 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: he treated Harmony, Adam Montgomery, that is, let's say his name. 190 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 2: I have. 191 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: I know specifically people that treat their dead dogs with 192 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: more honor and respect than he treated this precious little baby. 193 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: He drug her body around. Not only did he hide 194 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: her in a vent inside of the apartment that they 195 00:12:59,840 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: were living in, he actually took her remains to work 196 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: with him, Dave, and took them and placed them inside 197 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: of a walking cooler. And he was seen with this back. 198 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: And the last thing we know of her and Rife 199 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: with Irony, of course, is the fact that he was seen, 200 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: according to this woman that he's involved with, she's being 201 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: placed into or what remained of her. We think after 202 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: he probably made some kind of feeble attempt to dismember 203 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 1: those decomposing remains, of placing her in a maternity bag 204 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: gift bag from a local hospital. Rife with Irony, right, 205 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: and he's the last last thing we know is that 206 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: he's in a van and he's headed southbound out of 207 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: New Hampshire into Massachusetts where he winds up they I 208 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: think the van wound up adjacent to a large kind 209 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: of swampy area that, of course, that swamp area leads 210 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: out into the Atlantic Ocean. We're talking in Revere, Massachusetts, 211 00:14:12,480 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: And to this day we have no idea where Harmony's 212 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,360 Speaker 1: remains are, but we do know this, We do know 213 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: that evil visited this innocent little girl, and her life 214 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:49,479 Speaker 1: was a pure hell on earth. August tenth of twenty nineteen. 215 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: That's an interesting date. It's an interesting date I think 216 00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 1: in not just probably crime history, but perhaps just perhaps 217 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: in American history. It certainly has come to denote a 218 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 1: moment in time where I think things were revealed and 219 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: things are still yet to be revealed. And of course 220 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 1: I'm referring to our number five case for the previous year, 221 00:15:27,080 --> 00:15:33,600 Speaker 1: entitled murder or Suicide the death of Jeffrey Epstein Dave. 222 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: The scene is so politically charged. I got to tell you. 223 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: I remember coming to you for counsel on this and saying, 224 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 1: should I say anything? Should I talk about it on 225 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: body Backs, trying to be completely absent of any kind 226 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: of political implications or conspiratorial implications or anything like that. 227 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: We tried to stick with the science on this case 228 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: to break it down, because I'd already talked about it 229 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,239 Speaker 1: on a national place, on a variety of news programming 230 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing. However, I felt as though 231 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: I felt compelled to do an episode of body Bags 232 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: about this and about his death, because it was one 233 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: of these things that so many people had questions about. 234 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 1: Because it was so odd. It was so very odd 235 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: relative to the circumstances leading up to those final moments 236 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: or what we think were his final moments, and the 237 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:42,200 Speaker 1: mechanism by which he died, and secondly by what was 238 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,560 Speaker 1: found at autopsy, which to this day we still don't 239 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,640 Speaker 1: have an autopsy report, and I can't say I'm necessarily shocked, 240 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 1: but what we do have is what my buddy Michael 241 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: Biden said, and because he was literally in attendance at 242 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: the autopsy representing Epstein's family, the. 243 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,720 Speaker 2: Sixth month downloaded episode of the last year has been 244 00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein. And when we started covering this case, he 245 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 2: was not dead. He was in jail and we were 246 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:21,719 Speaker 2: covering it on Nancy Grace. And I think you were 247 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: involved in some of these episodes, the coverage before he 248 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 2: was dead, because of the possible forensic links that could 249 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 2: have tied him to the stories being told by victims, 250 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:37,439 Speaker 2: you know, twenty years after the fact. 251 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: But can I interject something right there? And this is 252 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,640 Speaker 1: just the way my mind works, which is a scary 253 00:17:47,680 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 1: thing to think about anyway, but it wasn't you know. 254 00:17:54,160 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: The abuse is obviously horrible that he's subject because we 255 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: can say he's subjected. He was found you know, guilty 256 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: on at least a couple of counts. I think my 257 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: biggest question with Epstein Dave was not so much about 258 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: his death. What I have been very curious about over 259 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 1: all these years is that it has been alleged that 260 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: there were underage girls, many of which were being brought 261 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: in from Eastern Europe. Now, they had said that early on, 262 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, Okay, he's got residences all about. Obviously, 263 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 1: there's the place in Paris that he had, there's you know, 264 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: the place in Manhattan, Mexico, massive ranch in New Mexico, 265 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:59,920 Speaker 1: and of course the you know what they refer to, 266 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 1: who is you know, Epstein Island, Little Saint James. But 267 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 1: my question always was what happened to these underage girls? 268 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 1: Do you? My thought had always been, well, if you're 269 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:23,680 Speaker 1: bringing in this many are you? Are you then taking 270 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,439 Speaker 1: them and flying them back from there to their points 271 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: of origin and depositing them back in these little towns 272 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: in Eastern Europe? Or is it something more sinister? Or 273 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 1: do you just take them randomly and just dump them 274 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: out on the streets and they're wandering around, they can't 275 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: speak the language, they to the best of my knowledge, 276 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 1: they probably don't have passports. Maybe they do. I have 277 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: no idea, But my question has always been what happened 278 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 1: to the girls? Yeah, and again that's I know that 279 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: that's horribly sinister on my part, but I think that 280 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: it factors into this and. 281 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: It's gonna make the claim you better have the proof. 282 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i'd agree, And so I don't know that 283 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: that had always been my question. But you know, back 284 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: to the case, the case at hand here relative to 285 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: his death, you and I both, you know, felt as though, 286 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: I think I can speak for you, my friend, we 287 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: felt as though that, you know, there was something that 288 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 1: was certainly untoward about the way he was handled as 289 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:33,920 Speaker 1: a prisoner. 290 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: Yep. 291 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: Then you couple that with what these findings are that 292 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: he has at autopsy, which was quite striking to me, Dave. 293 00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 2: You know, the biggest interesting factor into the Epstein case 294 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 2: was the Little Black Book. You know, who else was involved? 295 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: And I remember, and I actually went back and checked 296 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 2: my notes from an old radio show that I was 297 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: doing back to two thousand and two, three four in 298 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:06,119 Speaker 2: that area, and I remember talking then about the Lolita Express, 299 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 2: believe it or not, that long ago, talking about this 300 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein financier who is connected to all these politicians 301 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 2: and business leaders and whatever, and that they would take 302 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 2: the Lolita Express with lots of teenage girls apparently, and 303 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 2: they would go to have escapades on his island or whatever. 304 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: So it was public knowledge enough then in the early 305 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 2: two thousands, and Bill Clinton's name was mentioned. And Bill 306 00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 2: Clinton's name has always been mentioned in this but from 307 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 2: the media perspective being very one sided, you very rarely 308 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 2: got coverage of Clinton being mentioned, even though he was 309 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: mentioned a lot early on. In the political climate we 310 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 2: live in today, every time it was mentioned Donald Trump 311 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 2: picture of him with Jeffrey Epstein taken in nineteen ninety nine, 312 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 2: two thousand or whatever. And it just is it's fascinating 313 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 2: to see what has happened to the only business that 314 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 2: actually is protected by the Constitution of the United States 315 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 2: of America, where you can actually tell the truth without 316 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 2: fear of being sent to the American version of Siberia. 317 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: And yet they failed to do the job and use 318 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: it rather as a political bullwhip. And here we are 319 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 2: where a man Jeffrey Epstein is accused of some of 320 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:32,360 Speaker 2: the most heinous things doing to young people, although there 321 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 2: is some argument that can be made that these young 322 00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 2: women were procured for him by Maxwell and then later 323 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 2: on procured for him by some of the girls that 324 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 2: were allegit originally gotten by Gilaine Maxwell. They were brought 325 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: in and they went back to school and recruited more so, 326 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:54,639 Speaker 2: there's a whole tangled web. 327 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, there are and if and of course she's convicted 328 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 1: now and she's you know, time And I think that 329 00:23:01,520 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: one of the questions I would have uh for Ms 330 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:12,880 Speaker 1: Maxwell would certainly be not so much as to who 331 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 1: was on the list, but what happened to the girls? 332 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: What happened that one they didn't? Yeah, you know these 333 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 1: if you're you know, if you're acquiring them from these 334 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: you know, these places out in eastern Europe. And that's 335 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 1: what I keep referring to here. I'm not just talking 336 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 1: about the girls that came in off the street. You 337 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,160 Speaker 1: know that we're down in in the Palm Beach area 338 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,200 Speaker 1: and that sort of thing that they they went out 339 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: and you know, apparently recruited according to some of these 340 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: uh legal documents that are out there where these these 341 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: cases have been filed. I'm very curious about these kind 342 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 1: of voiceless, voiceless young women and I think children. Maybe 343 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 1: we we might could say that perhaps that they had 344 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: not reached the level of adulthood, because no one really 345 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: knows their ages and they're kind of faceless. But we 346 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: do have people saying that they heard girls that were 347 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:16,680 Speaker 1: there that were speaking in you know, in foreign languages 348 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: and know nothing, you know, nothing could be understood. So 349 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: that that's a big thing that that I would want 350 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: to know. Being a death investigator, I'd like to know 351 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: what happened to these girls? Where are they and they're killed? 352 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know, but it would seem 353 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: to me that they would certainly be Let's see, how 354 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 1: could I put this? They would certain they would certainly 355 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: be a liability if you were to release them back 356 00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:53,080 Speaker 1: out into back out into the public, because you know, 357 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 1: I don't know that anyone would have believed them. But 358 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: if they come forward and you've got some girl that's 359 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 1: speaking some slavic lanth wage you know, this's wandering up 360 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 1: and down the streets aimlessly, Yeah, and they somehow she 361 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,320 Speaker 1: gets her story out there, Yeah, that could be a 362 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: real liability. So I think that that would be one 363 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: of the big questions. 364 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 2: Okay, but what about his death, Joe. When he comes 365 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 2: right down to it, the man is left alone in jail. 366 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 2: He has not been tried yet. They're still gaining evidence, 367 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: putting things together. It's a daily news break update. It 368 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 2: seems we were getting so much news. A lot of 369 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 2: them's in you into him about what might be mentioned? 370 00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 2: What does he really have? I kept waiting for them 371 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 2: to announce that he was a Bernie Madoff clone. I 372 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 2: kept waiting to hear that it was all smoking mirrors, 373 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:41,760 Speaker 2: that he really didn't have any money. I kept waiting 374 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,359 Speaker 2: to hear that it was a Ponzi scheme, but that 375 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 2: never happened, and apparently he did have the money. So 376 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 2: he's in jail, and there are a lot of people 377 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 2: worried about their name popping up. And so the two 378 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 2: people who are supposed to be watching him in jail 379 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 2: are both sleep or online on the internet and Facebook 380 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 2: or whatever. And he is found in his cell where 381 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: he has apparently killed himself by hanging himself in his 382 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 2: cell or to his bunk bed. Is that correct? 383 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, that's the way it rolls out. And also, 384 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: don't forget the CCTV was down. Oh I forget that. Yeah, no, no, 385 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: that's what that's what's being said. 386 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 2: I looked at our notes and there was a thing 387 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 2: I had in there about when you and I were 388 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: yammering with Nancy about this and how the cameras were 389 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: off and that you know, the guy had been on 390 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 2: suicide Watch and then he was taken off suicide Watch 391 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 2: just in time for him to commit suicide where no 392 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: cameras were watching. Nobody's eyes are not on Jeffrey Epstein 393 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:49,920 Speaker 2: at all. 394 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: What sets apart this hanging relative to Epstein found in 395 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 1: his cell are some of the comments that Michael Biden made, who, 396 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: by the way, was in attendance at at autopsy. The 397 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:18,919 Speaker 1: fact that there were multiple injuries, internal injuries to the 398 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: structures with within within his neck. Uh. We've got the 399 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: cartilage uh that is fractured in two specific locations. We've 400 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: got a fracturing of hyoid bone, which you know we've 401 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: talked about before on the show. It's one of the 402 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 1: big telltale things that you look for in manual strangulations. 403 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: It's rare, i'd say, for there to be a hyoid fracture, 404 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: uh in a hanging, because it takes a certain amount 405 00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:00,640 Speaker 1: of applied force to a very specific area. And if 406 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: I recall, I had reflected upon the fact that that 407 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: many times in the past when you had judicial hangings 408 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: and the bodies would drop with such force, that's when 409 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, you generally see a hyoid fracture with hanging. 410 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: And those hangings, Dave are were different than say a 411 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: suicidal individual that is hanging themselves because hanging, most of 412 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: the time in a suicidal context, the person does not 413 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: set out to break their neck. Okay, judicial hangings were 414 00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: done for that specific reason, to break the neck of 415 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: the of the offender. 416 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 2: Uh. 417 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: And it was supposed to be quick, right, so most people, 418 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: you know, even I think it was Peer Point that 419 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: wrote the book. He was the executioner to the Queen 420 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,040 Speaker 1: to for years. It was a generational thing and it's 421 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: fascinating read, by the way, if you ever get a 422 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: chance to read it. And talked about the art of 423 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: judicial hanging. He wanted it to be quick and painless, 424 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: and where you would fracture the neck and the structure, 425 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: the structures of the neck, the cervical vertebra, in order 426 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,160 Speaker 1: to bring about a quick death. It's not what you've 427 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: got here. Uh, there's no fracturing of the vertebra here, 428 00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: the vertebral bodies that is, and you've got all of 429 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: this stuff is anti which means on the front, this 430 00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: is like a slow asphixial death with ligature. But it 431 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: was with enough force using what was believed to be 432 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 1: bed sheets in order to facilitate this this fracturing, this 433 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: traumatic fracturing. And he didn't fall from a great height day. 434 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, the claim that when his 435 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 1: body was found he was suspended with I think there 436 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: was like a clearance of about an inch to about 437 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: half an inch of his buttocks to floor, which is 438 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: a measurement that we take at autopsy. And there's no photos. 439 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: There's no photos of him in this suspended position, you know, 440 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: in the cell. And I'm sure they rushed over and 441 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: you know, whoever it was, it was, you know, trying 442 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 1: to do life saving duties. But he had been dead, 443 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: they estimated probably for at least two hours, you know, 444 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 1: before anybody got their hands on him. Wait a minute, Yeah, 445 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: you're in a jail cell. The cameras are turned off, 446 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: the guards are asleep, there's nobody else. He doesn't have 447 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: a cell mate, so he's by himself. 448 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 2: In his cell. He uses an orange bed sheet and 449 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 2: somehow ties a ligature. Is that okay, And he uses 450 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 2: his weight then to strangle himself and is dead for 451 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,640 Speaker 2: two hours before anybody finds him. 452 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, and. 453 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,160 Speaker 2: That's pretty much the setup. That's that's what we're saying. 454 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: And then and then they've got these you've got these 455 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 1: uncommon insults to to the neck or what. 456 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:21,520 Speaker 2: The uncommon insults show, well, the. 457 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: Fracturing of the cartilage uh in you know in the 458 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 1: upper structures here you're talking about like the laynix in 459 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: this area. 460 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: Religive, Like if I'm reaching out of that. 461 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,240 Speaker 1: Superior to your superior or above your Adam's apple, And 462 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,160 Speaker 1: that's an atypical spot for a hanging. Most of the time 463 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: you've got hangings that are most hangings are generally that 464 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: that point of contact where the most weight is suspended. 465 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 1: It's generally going to be at that. If you think 466 00:31:56,840 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 1: of a noose and you think about the six o'clock 467 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,920 Speaker 1: position being at the Adams apple, it's going to be 468 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 1: in that area inferior to it. This is superior. This 469 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: is up really really high because the highwaid is very 470 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: very high in the neck. That's why highwaid fractures are 471 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 1: commonly associated with manual strangulation DAVE because you have to 472 00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: position your hand in such a way to get it 473 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: high up on the neck. Most of the time a 474 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: noose won't do that. And here's the other thing. I've 475 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: seen photos of Epstein's remains, and there is a striking 476 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: photo of him where he has got two ligature marks 477 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: on his neck. And they are those kind of dry, 478 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,800 Speaker 1: abraided areas that you see that are consistent. You know, 479 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: when a ligature is removed, you see these things there 480 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: and the skin draws out. It's abraided because it's been 481 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: rough to buy something that that was. You know, why 482 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 1: are there? Two? And two are like really pronounced. It's 483 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: not like one's kind of passive or anything like that. 484 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: These two are very pronounced. It's almost like there was 485 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: a readjustment, if you will, of ligature. To me, that's 486 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 1: just you know what I'm saying. So, is it possible 487 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: to ligature strangle somebody and produce these insults to the 488 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: hyoid high up in the neck? I don't know. When 489 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm looking at the saying, of course, all these things 490 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: are running through my mind. I'm thinking staging you know, 491 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 1: just you know, I'm thinking that this is this? Is 492 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: it a possibility? Is it? We just have to entertain 493 00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: is it? You know, I can't say definitely. Is it 494 00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:58,280 Speaker 1: possible that this could have been staged? Perhaps, you know, 495 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: because we've covered other case, Dave, I know that we have, 496 00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 1: if memory serves me correctly, where people have been hung 497 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 1: after they've been strangled. So that's kind of interesting. He 498 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: did have a CEPAT machine in the LEL element. Yeah, 499 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,560 Speaker 1: all right, so he's got the two marks. So let's 500 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 1: just say, for the sake of argument, that somebody strangled him. 501 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: And then they're like, wait a minute, I got to 502 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 1: make this look like he did it. So I tie 503 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,400 Speaker 1: this off and tie it to the butt and it 504 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: leaves another mark. Yeah that makes sense. Yeah, and look, 505 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 1: there's not enough the thing about like, and I keep 506 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: I don't want to beat a dead horse. But you 507 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: go back to judicial hangings as a form of capital 508 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:56,839 Speaker 1: punishment with those height and the weight of the individual. 509 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:58,840 Speaker 1: The height of the fall and the weight of the 510 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: individual plays in to this. And going back to pierpoints 511 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: book where you know, he talks about these detailed measurements 512 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: that he did on he did he executed a lot 513 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 1: of the guys from the the Nuremberg trials. He'd fly 514 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: back and forth daily, sometimes from London to Nuremberg where 515 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: he would carry out sentence. And what's crucial is he 516 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 1: would do these detailed measurements of the weight of the 517 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,680 Speaker 1: individual he was hanging and trying to get an idea 518 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: how far the drop would have to be to attain 519 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: the necessary velocity in order to break the neck. Well, 520 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:45,520 Speaker 1: if you look at this jail cell, even if even 521 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: if Epstein had tied off one of these torn bits 522 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: of cloth from these blankets, there was not enough height 523 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,640 Speaker 1: to gain that much velocity to do this kind of trauma. 524 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 1: This is what it comes down to. The other thing 525 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: that was troubling. And you know, you always think about 526 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: jail cells, always envision them to be rather spartan. His 527 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: thing looks like a pig pin. When you see the 528 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: interior from sixty minutes in particular, and there's pills everywhere. 529 00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: You know, you've got all of these medications. There's a 530 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,279 Speaker 1: shelf of medications, and you have a seapap machine which 531 00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 1: requires electricity that you have to plug into the wall. 532 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 2: There there's electric things I associate with being in a 533 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 2: jail cell. 534 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:41,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's not necessarily spartan. It's nasty, Yeah, it 535 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:47,359 Speaker 1: really is. It looked, it looked horrible. And so you've 536 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: got this electra a rather robust electric cord for anybody 537 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: that's ever seen a seapap machine. It's not some cheap 538 00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 1: cord that you might go down to a box store 539 00:36:56,080 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: and purchase. This thing is robust. It's got a large 540 00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 1: outside sheath, you know, covering the wires. Rather robust. I've 541 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,320 Speaker 1: had I've had people that have hung themselves with electrical cords. 542 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: So I don't know. There's certainly more questions than there 543 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: are answers with Epstein case. But I'm just glad that 544 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: we had an opportunity to cover it at least, and 545 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,240 Speaker 1: we could put our two cents in, because I think 546 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:30,279 Speaker 1: that as time goes by, more and more is going 547 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: to reveal about not only his death, but also the 548 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:40,279 Speaker 1: other individuals involved in this bizarre world in which he inhabited. 549 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:59,279 Speaker 1: I guess probably for me, Dave, we talk a lot 550 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: about our family in our childhood and that sort of thing, 551 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 1: and you know, our lives are marked I think by locations. 552 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: Would you agree with that statement, yes, And for me 553 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 1: I always associate time with locations and remembrances of that location. 554 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:27,880 Speaker 1: And for our number four on our list of the 555 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 1: top ten most downloaded for this past year for bodybacks 556 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:39,280 Speaker 1: is one entitled the House is Gone the Idaho's Student Murders. 557 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: When that happened, I think that myself, as a professional 558 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: forensic scientist and you as a layman, were both equally shot, 559 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: probably for different reasons, but we were certainly compelled to 560 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 1: make comment about it. I remember, I remember feeling furious 561 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:15,200 Speaker 1: about it, and this is why we had seen this 562 00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,920 Speaker 1: house for so long. It had been thrown up on 563 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:23,359 Speaker 1: the screen. And not to say that everything that the 564 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:27,799 Speaker 1: media puts in front of us necessarily has value. However, 565 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 1: in this case, that structure did have value, and it 566 00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: really rubbed me the wrong way when it was stated 567 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: that the structure was coming down, because it just seemed 568 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,239 Speaker 1: to me it just seemed like a major mistake on 569 00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: the part of the authorities that allowed this to happen. 570 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,719 Speaker 2: Whenever I see a building torn down after a crime 571 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 2: before it's been adjudicated, my first thought is cover up. 572 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 2: Why are you getting read of the big piece of 573 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 2: evidence we have. I don't care if it's an eyesore. 574 00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 2: I don't care if it's got tourists coming by, you 575 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 2: know what, until there is justice there is then this 576 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 2: needs to remain. And I even made notes on this 577 00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,200 Speaker 2: for a couple of reasons. One in particular that hit 578 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,759 Speaker 2: me really hard, and it was when I was a 579 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 2: young man in my teens and the trial of Jeffrey 580 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 2: McDonald was taking place in Raleigh, North Carolina. He was 581 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: accused of murdering his wife and children at Fort Bragg 582 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,160 Speaker 2: and staging it to look like a Manson type of 583 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 2: a murder. And they they being the military police. This 584 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 2: place where this occurred was military housing there on the 585 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,799 Speaker 2: base at Fort Bragg and Favl, North Carolina, and they 586 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:49,399 Speaker 2: kept it that way as it was that night when 587 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,760 Speaker 2: they left after you know that it was in place 588 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 2: so that the jurors could then go to that location 589 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:01,880 Speaker 2: and with the evidence they'd been given, these testimony they 590 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 2: had heard about the location of what took place, they 591 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 2: were able to look and see for themselves the actual 592 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:11,759 Speaker 2: area where this allegedly occurred, how many people would have 593 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 2: been in there, and what was taking place so they 594 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:17,720 Speaker 2: could judge for themselves. And Joe, that was years after. 595 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 2: We're not talking months. We're not talking two or three years. 596 00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:24,120 Speaker 2: We're talking nine years after the murders. And it was 597 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 2: kept in that shape so much so that actually in 598 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,719 Speaker 2: the book that Joe McGinness wrote called Fatal Vision, he 599 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,840 Speaker 2: actually described shutting the door and how some Valentine cards 600 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,400 Speaker 2: that were sitting on top of a mantle when the 601 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 2: door was shut, they tipped over, and he made a 602 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 2: big deal out of it in the book. You know 603 00:41:42,680 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 2: how it's like this, how could those have been standing 604 00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 2: up saying it was staged? How could they possibly be 605 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,239 Speaker 2: standing up of just shutting the door now knocks them over? 606 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 2: And like, wait a minute, okay, just to give you 607 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,319 Speaker 2: an idea. My first thought I was like, you're right, 608 00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,880 Speaker 2: that's amazing evidence. I went, wait a minute, you're going 609 00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 2: to tell me that you had fifteen twenty police officers 610 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 2: and paramedics taking the family out on gurneys to the 611 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 2: hospital to see if any lives and those cards stayed 612 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 2: up the whole time. Yeah, I mean, your big evidence, 613 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 2: mister McGinnis just fell by the wayside for me. But 614 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 2: that told me the importance and in this particular case 615 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 2: in Idaho, Joe, I need to see this. You can 616 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 2: do all the digital stuff you want. I can look 617 00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,080 Speaker 2: at it on a screen, but I want to know 618 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,880 Speaker 2: how the alleged killer here was able to move freely 619 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:41,120 Speaker 2: about this place where there's some but two other people 620 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 2: in the building alive downstairs who claim they didn't hear 621 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:47,600 Speaker 2: anything that was going on upstairs. I want to see 622 00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,879 Speaker 2: the distance. I need to feel the distance going from 623 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:53,399 Speaker 2: room to room upstairs, downstairs. Whatever I'm doing, I need 624 00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 2: to feel that and see it to know what really happened. 625 00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 2: You cannot get that sense on a three D rendering 626 00:42:58,680 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 2: on a computer screen. 627 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 1: No, it suddenly becomes an abstraction for those that will 628 00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: be charged with making this decision in this case, and 629 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,239 Speaker 1: it's coming. It's going to be staring at us. Right now, 630 00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,479 Speaker 1: we're looking at that pinpoint of light in the middle 631 00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:19,880 Speaker 1: of the train tracks, and that light is growing larger 632 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:24,799 Speaker 1: and larger because as of this recording that we're doing 633 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,200 Speaker 1: right now, right now, I think the trial date has 634 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: been set for August the eleventh, which is fascinating to 635 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: me because the judge has bracketed time. Now get this 636 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,440 Speaker 1: from August the eleventh until the first week of November. 637 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 1: I think that's when the trial is going to take place. 638 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:51,239 Speaker 1: So we're talking about just tons and tons of information 639 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: that's going to be sorted through. It's going to be 640 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,080 Speaker 1: talked about. And I agree with you man, the biggest 641 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:02,720 Speaker 1: piece of evidence in this case, to my way of thinking, 642 00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:07,719 Speaker 1: as far as physical evidence that we have, is that 643 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: that home and I in my estimation, it's a complex 644 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: it's a complex structure because you've got these weird staircases 645 00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 1: that are running, you know, these twisting turns, and this 646 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:27,160 Speaker 1: weird uh floor plan that's laid out. This thing has 647 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,160 Speaker 1: been added on to over the years. That third floor 648 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:35,520 Speaker 1: did not exist, and yet it's where uh, it's where 649 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: you know, two people were were brutally murdered, and when 650 00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,360 Speaker 1: you're trying to contextualize it relatives of the rest of 651 00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,799 Speaker 1: the structure that's gone. You know, you were talking about 652 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: the McDonald's case, and one things that came to mind 653 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:58,360 Speaker 1: for me talking about preservation is Parkland shooting. Oh my gosh. 654 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: They held on to uh, you know, to the Parkland 655 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,520 Speaker 1: shooting uh location for I don't know, years and years, 656 00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: and they threw up barriers. Interestingly enough, dovetailing with what 657 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:19,360 Speaker 1: you had mentioned about uh McDonald you know, Parkland shooting 658 00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: was a Valentine's Day event where you had, you know, 659 00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: when they went in. After all those years, I'll never 660 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:31,800 Speaker 1: forget the reporting on that. Uh, the stuffed teddy bears 661 00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,239 Speaker 1: were still laid on the floor. There were there were 662 00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: old dried up roses that were crushed beneath feet that 663 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,120 Speaker 1: were still laying there. But they had put a fence 664 00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:44,440 Speaker 1: up around the entire place and secured it and locked 665 00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: it down. How much trouble would that have been in 666 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,319 Speaker 1: order to facilitate that. I don't I don't understand it. 667 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 1: And again I'm not the one making the decision. I mean, 668 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,239 Speaker 1: God bless them, godspeed, go in peace. I hope that 669 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 1: it works out for you. But I just hope, I 670 00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: just hope that this is not a critical error, you know, 671 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,760 Speaker 1: on the part because I you know, apparently the parties 672 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: came to the agreement that it could that you know, 673 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:16,320 Speaker 1: they're cool with with tearing the thing down. 674 00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 2: But Joe, is there any is there any downside leaving 675 00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:19,879 Speaker 2: it up? 676 00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: No? I don't think there is other than people's feelings 677 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: getting hurt. And you know, I got to tell you 678 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 1: that if memory serves me correctly, and I don't want 679 00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,200 Speaker 1: to speak for the families, But the families were not 680 00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:39,000 Speaker 1: happy about this decision, Dave. And so when you factor 681 00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: that in, if they don't have a problem with it, 682 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:47,800 Speaker 1: and it's just because somebody is going to get triggered 683 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: by it when they drive by, or it brings up 684 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,800 Speaker 1: bad memories, you know, sometimes bad memories are good because 685 00:46:54,880 --> 00:47:00,600 Speaker 1: it reminds you of the evil that inhabits the world. 686 00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,440 Speaker 1: Many times you don't want to return to it over 687 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:07,760 Speaker 1: and over again. But what would have been the harm, 688 00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:11,160 Speaker 1: what would have been the actual harm of kind of 689 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:15,920 Speaker 1: freezing that place, if you will in place and you know, 690 00:47:16,320 --> 00:47:20,000 Speaker 1: holding it until this thing is over with, if there 691 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,319 Speaker 1: is an outside opportunity for this jury, which now the 692 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:28,360 Speaker 1: thing has been moved to Boise, they're not going to 693 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:34,440 Speaker 1: have it there in Moscow, So the chances of a 694 00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:38,000 Speaker 1: day trip now are gone, I think for the jurors 695 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:40,160 Speaker 1: that will be impaneled there and Boise, and they're going 696 00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:42,200 Speaker 1: to choose from that pool. 697 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:42,439 Speaker 2: Now. 698 00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:45,160 Speaker 1: I believe up there because they say it's more robust, 699 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: and I guess they're factory in the idea that I 700 00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,680 Speaker 1: guess they assume that no one has heard about this 701 00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:54,960 Speaker 1: case in Boison. They have a pre Yeah, they haven't 702 00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,399 Speaker 1: made a decision about it yet, but yeah, I mean, 703 00:47:58,520 --> 00:47:59,880 Speaker 1: they have to do what they have to do. But 704 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:06,200 Speaker 1: I still don't understand. I still don't understand the destruction 705 00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: of the structure. 706 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:09,759 Speaker 2: I know that the family of Kali Gonzalvez, one of 707 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 2: the victims, they were very outspoken about not wanting the 708 00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,640 Speaker 2: house torn down. And again I just wonder upside downside? 709 00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:22,479 Speaker 2: Is there any upside or any Yeah, is there any 710 00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:25,880 Speaker 2: downside to, you know, leaving it up? And there really isn't. 711 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,440 Speaker 2: So no, the only negatives you find are if you 712 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 2: tear it up and ruin it. But they say, oh, 713 00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 2: we got all the evidence. No you didn't, because the 714 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,920 Speaker 2: evidence is the building. The number of steps. Like if 715 00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:39,760 Speaker 2: you picture in your mind a quarter of a mile, okay, 716 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 2: a lap around the track, depending on how many times 717 00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:45,359 Speaker 2: you have made this run, you might look at that 718 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:47,239 Speaker 2: and in your head thing, that's not really not that far. 719 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,799 Speaker 2: I could sprint that far. Well, you realize if you 720 00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,600 Speaker 2: could run that quarter of a mile in fifty eight seconds, 721 00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 2: you're on a pretty fast clip in your head. One 722 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,919 Speaker 2: lap around you I could do that in a minute. 723 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,600 Speaker 2: You know, it just seems like it's not that easy. 724 00:49:00,640 --> 00:49:03,239 Speaker 2: You couldn't do it in a minute, you know, no. 725 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:07,640 Speaker 1: And I have a distinct memory of when they arrested 726 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,520 Speaker 1: the accused Coburger and he acquired some level of a 727 00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:14,680 Speaker 1: defense team. I think that may have still been in 728 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:20,920 Speaker 1: in until at the time. Remember what they we're going 729 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,719 Speaker 1: to do that day. They had the cleaning crew that 730 00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,839 Speaker 1: was there at the at the structure, and they'd even 731 00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:31,520 Speaker 1: put up the the plastic covering so that these people 732 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,680 Speaker 1: could go in, and all of a sudden, his team said, whoa, wha, wha, 733 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,360 Speaker 1: wha what what put the brakes on here? Texts uh, 734 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,640 Speaker 1: we want to take a look and bring our own 735 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:43,640 Speaker 1: people in and have them document the end here. And look, 736 00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,560 Speaker 1: I'm all for that. I think that it's important for 737 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,279 Speaker 1: because if you don't allow him to do it, it's 738 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:53,040 Speaker 1: something that can say that was not done. And if 739 00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:58,680 Speaker 1: you extend that out to say, having a jury that 740 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 1: has access to this structure where they can walk through it, 741 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,880 Speaker 1: hear the echoes of the footfalls inside of this place, 742 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,040 Speaker 1: understand lighting, understand how long does it take to move 743 00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:17,680 Speaker 1: from this location to this location that's gone? I don't 744 00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:22,480 Speaker 1: care how many three D Hologram Holi deck Star Trek 745 00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,480 Speaker 1: kind of things you can create and bring into the courtroom. 746 00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:28,759 Speaker 1: It ain't the same as having the physical structure and 747 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: at least have the opportunity to have access to it. Brother, 748 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:39,080 Speaker 1: that's gone. It's gone with the wind. And again, I 749 00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:44,080 Speaker 1: think I understand why this particular episode of body Bags 750 00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,240 Speaker 1: came in at such a high download level, because people 751 00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,560 Speaker 1: are curious about this. I don't know that we've had 752 00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:55,640 Speaker 1: a case where a structure like this was torn down 753 00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: prior to this thing finally being adjudicated, but as time 754 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,960 Speaker 1: goes by, we'll certainly learn more, particularly starting in August 755 00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:12,320 Speaker 1: of twenty twenty five. Well, friends, that concludes our breakdown 756 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:18,319 Speaker 1: for today of episodes six, five and four. Please come 757 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:22,959 Speaker 1: back and join us tomorrow for the top three downloads 758 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,480 Speaker 1: of Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan for this previous year. 759 00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.