1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuct to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:17,239 Speaker 1: Your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. 4 00:00:17,320 --> 00:00:20,320 Speaker 1: And to uh introduce today's episode, I thought maybe we 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: should begin by reading a poem. Robert or you game, 6 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: I'm game for a little little poetry. In fact, it's 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: not just poetry, it's moetry. I did not make that 8 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: joke in my head yet, but maybe because I'm not 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: as perverse as you. This is by the New Zealand 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: poet Alan kernw This was originally published in nineteen and 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: it's called The Skeleton of the Great Moa in Canterbury Museum, 12 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: christ Church. The Skeleton of the Moa, on iron crutches, 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: broods over no great waste. Deprivate swamp was where this 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: tree grew feathers. Once that hatches, it's dusty clutch and 15 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: guards them from the damp. Interesting failure to adapt on 16 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 1: islands taller but not more fallen than I, who come 17 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: bone to his bone. Peculiarly New Zealand's the eyes of 18 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: children flicker around this tomb under the skylights. Wonder at 19 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:17,760 Speaker 1: the huge egg found in a thousand pieces piece together, 20 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: but with less patients than the bones that dug in 21 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,759 Speaker 1: time deep shelter against the ocean weather. Not I some 22 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: child born in a marvelous year will learn the trick 23 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: of standing upright here. You can find that poem, by 24 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 1: the way, in the nineteen seventy nine anthology and Anthology 25 00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: of twentieth century New Zealand Poetry. And Yeah, I really 26 00:01:39,360 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: love the cadence of that poem, and also I feel 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,039 Speaker 1: like it effectively captures the weird beauty of these reassembled 28 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: skeleton remains one sees of the mighty moa. You know, 29 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: we just did Marianne Moore in the paper Nautilus. This 30 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: is another poem like that. I love a good poem 31 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: that genuinely ponders biology like this deals with the evolutionary 32 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: reputation of the moa, the flightless birds of New Zealand, 33 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: uh and and the idea of learning the trick of 34 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 1: standing upright. Yeah. Now, this is gonna be a fun 35 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: couple of episodes. I'm really excited about these episodes. I 36 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: think the moa is one of the things that's really 37 00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: keeping me going right now. You're getting to research read 38 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: about the moa and envision the moa. Uh No, no 39 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: matter what where I don't know where you are out there, 40 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: if you're listening to this, where you are in your 41 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: previous understanding of of the moa and other flightless birds. 42 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: But this is a this is a wonderful and weird 43 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: story that has as a number of number of connections 44 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: to things we've talked about in the past, but but 45 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: also some new angles. We're gonna be talking about evolution, 46 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: We're gonna be talking about first contact between man and beast. 47 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: It's a it's gonna be a fun ride. And there's 48 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 1: no better place to start a fun ride than in 49 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: New Zealand, the land of avian decadence, that's right, And 50 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: and the place where the mammal is truly debased. That's 51 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 1: right because you I knowbviously, the rise of mammals is 52 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: one of evolutions most celebrated victory stories, right because in 53 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: part because we are, of course mammals ourselves, and there's 54 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: perhaps a sense of of the gods and the primordial 55 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 1: titans when we consider the age of the dinosaurs that 56 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: came before us in our own mammalian age that we 57 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: have you know, ascended uh in now, well, yeah, I mean, 58 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: there's very much a case of when you look at 59 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: the Cretaceous paleogy and extinction event that caused the demise 60 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 1: of the non avian dinosaurs. Uh, it's quite clear that 61 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: their loss was our gain, yes, but it was wasn't 62 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: only our gain. It was also the gain of of birds. 63 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: And we often neglect the just the exceptional dominance of 64 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: birds for theirs is the the the legacy of the 65 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,960 Speaker 1: of the dinosaur, and then they remain highly successful and 66 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: widespread to this day. They remain masters of the air, 67 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: frequent masters of the water, and sometimes masters of the 68 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: land as well. Now, why would birds be the masters 69 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: of the land, Like they've got the air that seems 70 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: so much better than the land, why even bother with 71 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,119 Speaker 1: the land? Well, of course that the obvious answer there 72 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: is that is that to be a master of the 73 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: of the air requires a great deal of energy, and 74 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: if you don't have to fly around, you quickly find 75 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: reasons not to Evolutionarily speaking, of course, Well, so if 76 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: we're talking about mammals and avian dinosaurs or birds, why 77 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:22,359 Speaker 1: exactly was it that the loss of the dinosaurs was 78 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,279 Speaker 1: the gain of these other clades? Well, because suddenly you 79 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: have all of these uh, these niches in the in 80 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: the in the in the in the environment that open up. Uh. 81 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,799 Speaker 1: That's suddenly a bird can can occupy, or various creatures 82 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: have the ability to occupy mammals included. But this is 83 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: where we see the emergence of a number of these 84 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: different flightless birds. This is where we see the emergence 85 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:47,320 Speaker 1: of the terror birds and the demon ducks. Uh. And 86 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 1: we'll get into some more examples of flightless birds as 87 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: we go. Uh. But yeah, to be sure, we still 88 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 1: have some amazing flightless land birds with us today, and 89 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: some of them are are quite enormous. The largest, of course, 90 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: is the ostrich. There are two species remaining. There was 91 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: a third, the Asian ostrich, that went extinct roughly six 92 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: thousand years ago. Yeah. The two extant species are the 93 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,919 Speaker 1: common ostrich and the Somali ostrich, and they're both native 94 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: to Africa. Yeah. And I sometimes I feel like we 95 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: sometimes overlook how cool ostriches are. I find that it's zoos. 96 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 1: They you know, the one thing, it's a zoo habitat, 97 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 1: and and you know it's it's you're seeing an ostrich 98 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 1: in a fenced in area. But then sometimes the Ostrich 99 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: is in there with a giraffe, which seems particularly unfair 100 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 1: because the giraffe, of course, is the is the tallest 101 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: um extant mammal that we have. And it feels kind 102 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: of like a dirty trick to showcase the world's to 103 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: the world's tallest extant bird with the tallest mammal which 104 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: towers over it. Right, It's like I'm trying to show 105 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: off my muscles, but then you put me next to 106 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 1: a gorilla. But but we have some other wonderful examples 107 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: of flightless birds, uh elsewhere. For instance, we have EMUs, 108 00:05:56,200 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 1: which are very fascinating. You get a chance to just 109 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: look at an emu, just watching emu as it goes 110 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: about its business. It's it's remarkable. The cassowary is one 111 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: of my favorites mine too. There's a cassowary here at 112 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: the Atlanta Zoo, Cecil Cecil the cast wary, who we 113 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: we've talked on the show before with with a friend 114 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:18,840 Speaker 1: Jason Ward here in town about Cecil the cassowary, who 115 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 1: remember Jason telling us that it's dung is very like 116 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: fragrant and kind of smells of fruit, even though it 117 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,520 Speaker 1: is the I mean not to demonize animals, but when 118 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 1: you get up close to it, it is a horrifying beast. 119 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: Like it's beautiful. Its colors are beautiful. It has the 120 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: blue and the red and the black feathers. It's a 121 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: gorgeous animal. But also if you look at its foot, 122 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: it's foot looks like a puppet from a monster movie. 123 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: You know it is. It is just a killing thing. 124 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 1: It's got these claws and this scaly, scabby skin. Uh 125 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: that's a tongue twister. But yeah, look at a cassowary 126 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: up close sometime if you just want to be terrified 127 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 1: and audit nature. And yeah, they they can. They can 128 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,120 Speaker 1: prove quite deadly if you know, the human comes into 129 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 1: close contact with them and there they begin engaging in 130 00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: the defensive behavior. Yeah, don't try to look at their 131 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,239 Speaker 1: feet up close if there is not a like barrier 132 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: between you. Yeah. Of course, we have other flightless birds 133 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: who consider one of the more amazing ones. Of course, 134 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:23,680 Speaker 1: it's the key we of New Zealand um the nocturnal 135 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: ground bird. All of these birds are what we call rattites, 136 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: a diverse group of flightless birds that were widespread across 137 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: the scattered fragments of the supercontinent don Dwana UH and 138 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: the and their dominance is waned over time, certainly with 139 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: the rise of Homo sapiens. We still have all these 140 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: various examples that still remain today. Yeah, and you find 141 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: you find large flightless birds, well actually large and small 142 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: flightless birds everywhere from New Zealand to South America. Yeah, 143 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: you know, and that's without even getting into the the 144 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 1: the obvious example of just other flightless birds. There's also 145 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: the penguin, of course. But well, this raises the question 146 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: why do we have flightless birds all over the place 147 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: like this? Well? Uh. In the nineteen nineties there was 148 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 1: a wonderfully titled theory MOA's arc which would assume that 149 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: all of these ratites descended from a common ancestor. So, 150 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: in other words, that the idea here is that a 151 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:24,200 Speaker 1: a flighted ancestor became flightless on god Dwana, and then 152 00:08:24,240 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: as the supercontinent split, this one flightless ancestor UH diverged 153 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: into all these different flightless species. Okay, so you get 154 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: one instance of these birds descending from an ancestor and 155 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: becoming flightless, and then the flightless one goes all over 156 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: the place, and then there's continental drift, the supercontinent splits up, 157 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: and the flightless descendants of that one ancestor all go 158 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 1: off into different places and evolve in different directions, and 159 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: they become everything from the Ostrich to the key We 160 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: to the moa. Right. But one of the issues with this, UH, 161 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: this idea is that this would mean we'd expect something 162 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:04,679 Speaker 1: we'd expect, say in New Zealand, we'd expect the moa 163 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: and the kiwi to be closely related to each other. 164 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: We'd expect that any any of these ratites that live 165 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: close together would also be closely related, but subsequent DNA 166 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: studies have revealed that this was not the case. Instead 167 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: of MOA's ark, the model seems to be one of 168 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: numerous cases of flighted to flightless evolution around the world. 169 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: So again, convergent evolution. UH. This repeated instance of a 170 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 1: flighted bird evolving into a bird that doesn't fly, which 171 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: seems so strange of a of a choice for evolution 172 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:39,439 Speaker 1: to make. I mean not to personify it too much, 173 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: but but what is the advantage there? I think we 174 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: alluded to this earlier. One of the main theories about 175 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: this is that it's an energy advantage. If a bird 176 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: doesn't need to fly, then it doesn't need to make 177 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,680 Speaker 1: huge pectoral muscles capable flapping wings that can get it 178 00:09:56,720 --> 00:09:58,719 Speaker 1: into the air. And if it doesn't need to make 179 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: those big muscles, it spend that energy on something else, 180 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:05,679 Speaker 1: or it can just survive on less food. Yeah, and uh, 181 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: and it can have just like a smaller it can 182 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: have less of a basal metabolic rate. And we we've 183 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 1: talked on the show pretty recently about birds having a 184 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,840 Speaker 1: pretty high BMR. So so yeah, this is basically the 185 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: reason why we see the rise of these various flightless 186 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:22,160 Speaker 1: birds and in you know, all corners of the world 187 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 1: really But then of course a number of them end 188 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: up falling away. And of course we'll get into the 189 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: details of of of the fall of the moa in 190 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: these episodes. Uh, in the case of the moa and 191 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: in the case of the elephant bird, it's it's the 192 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: encountering human beings that did the trick. Yes, once again, 193 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: human beings seem to be a sort of anomaly in 194 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: the fossil record in the evolutionary story. Once we enter 195 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: the picture, things tend to go haywire. But another question is, 196 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: coming back to what we were just talking about like 197 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: the energy considerations in losing flight. So it is clear 198 00:10:57,640 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: that you can save a lot of energy by not 199 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: being a flying bird if you don't need to fly. 200 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: But in what case would a bird not need to fly? 201 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: Shouldn't flying always help a bird to survive? Well, basically 202 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: it comes down to, like like we said earlier, the 203 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: death of the dinosaurs creating these these holes for it, 204 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: these niches for it in the environment. You need a 205 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: place where I mean to use a very simple even 206 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: tacki metaphor here for birds they need a place to land, uh, 207 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,720 Speaker 1: in a place it's not already occupied by say a 208 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,320 Speaker 1: highly successful dinosaur or highly highly successful mammal. And so 209 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,800 Speaker 1: there there are corners of the world, uh, you know, 210 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: other shards of Gondwana where the the the idea of 211 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: a kingdom of the birds remained at least partially unchallenged 212 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: by mammalian usurpers. Like nothing came nothing was already there 213 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,439 Speaker 1: to keep the bird from landing, and nothing came up 214 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 1: to U to erase it from the ecosystem. Um. For instance, 215 00:11:54,880 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: there's the island of Madagascar, which enjoyed something like eighty 216 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: eight million years of isolate Asian during which it fostered 217 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: various forms of lemur as well as the massive elephant 218 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: bird uh not only a rattite but often considered the 219 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: largest known rattite to ever walk the earth. But then 220 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: there's also far flung New Zealand, which enjoyed an amazing 221 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:21,440 Speaker 1: degree of freedom as well from the mammalian revolution, well 222 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: until roughly umred c e with the arrival of human beings. 223 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: Now that's not to say they were completely free of 224 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: mammals that believe they're too extinct, primitive mammals known only 225 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: as the Saint Bathans mammal that are present in the 226 00:12:38,600 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: in the fossil record from the Miocene. Otherwise, the only 227 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: way for a mammal to get to New Zealand was 228 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: to fly there or to swim there. So you'd have 229 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: this huge island that's got birds on it, but does 230 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: not have any large mammalian predators. It doesn't have any lions, 231 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't have any wolves, it doesn't have any foxes, 232 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: anything for a bird to need to fly and escape from. 233 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: So if you don't have a predator you have to 234 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: fly and escape from, why even keep making wings Exactly? 235 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,559 Speaker 1: You just you land and you start filling those niches. 236 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: There's no buffalo there, no horses again, no wolves. And 237 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: then the as far as the other mammals, the ones 238 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:22,520 Speaker 1: that have swam there. I mean, we're talking about seals, 239 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: sea lions, whales out in the waters around New Zealand. 240 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: And they they're they're they're not gonna invade the forest 241 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,200 Speaker 1: anytime soon. Uh, they're doing just fine. And then other 242 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,360 Speaker 1: than that, we have bats. Bats flew to New Zealand, 243 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: where we do see you do see an interest in 244 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,440 Speaker 1: case where where the bats that come to New Zealand 245 00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: end up spending more time on the ground than you 246 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: see elsewhere in the world, particular the New Zealand lesser 247 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 1: short tailed bat, which spends a lot of its time 248 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: foraging on the forest floor, crawling around, um, basically taking 249 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: on a far more terrestrial a role than bat's employee elsewhere. Again, 250 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: this would make sense as an evolutionary adaptation if there's 251 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: just not a lot of stuff to worry about on 252 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: the ground like there is everywhere else. Yeah, Like we 253 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: mentioned the kiwi earlier, Like the kiwi is an example 254 00:14:13,920 --> 00:14:17,559 Speaker 1: of a ground dwelling bird. Uh, you know, it goes 255 00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: around at night, it eats things like worms, but there's nothing. 256 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: There's nothing like a mole. There there are no moles 257 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: to fill that niche in the environment. Uh, therefore the 258 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: kiwi is is taking that role on even though it 259 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: is a bird. Now you do see some cases where 260 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: reptiles or gastropods are also you know, filling in these 261 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: these niches in the environment in New Zealand. But for 262 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: the most part, the birds are the real stars here. Um, 263 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: we mentioned the kiwi and there are there are numerous 264 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: other examples of flightless birds in New Zealand. There's a 265 00:14:48,640 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: there are various extant species that we still find, such 266 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: as the South Island tacky heat and then there's also 267 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: a flightless bird known as the Weka. But the most 268 00:14:57,040 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: amazing examples are the nine now extinct species of moa, 269 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: including the giant moa that used to uh To to 270 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: exert their dominance over New Zealand. Well, maybe we should 271 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: take a break and then when we come back we 272 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: can talk about this giant bird. Thank alright, we're back. 273 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: So we just introduced the character of the moa. This, 274 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: I guess we alluded to a little bit earlier. But 275 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: this giant flightless bird that used to inhabit New Zealand. 276 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: That's right. Yeah, there were nine different nine different species 277 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: are known to exist. There's the upland moa, the little 278 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: bush moa, and I have to stress the little bush 279 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: moa was still one point three meters or four point 280 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 1: three ft tall, so it's still a sizeable bird. Wait 281 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: is it now? Is it the little bush moa or 282 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: the little bush moa? Uh? The little bush moa sometimes 283 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: just referred to as the bush moa. I'm just trying 284 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: to think. I mean, is it like a bush moa 285 00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: that's little or is it being compared to a little 286 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:58,560 Speaker 1: bush or something? Oh? I think it basically lived in 287 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: the bush bushma would have would have lived more in 288 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: the rainforest. So essentially the moa is so successful. You 289 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: have all you have like nine different varieties and different 290 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: parts of New Zealand. Uh, different sizes. By the two 291 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:16,080 Speaker 1: largest were dinormous Robustus which means robust, strange bird, and 292 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: dinornous novels Olndia. So we're largely gonna be talking about 293 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: those two because they were the biggest. We're talking about 294 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: moa that reached the heights of three point six meters 295 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: or twelve feet tall. That's with the neck outstretched and 296 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: there with with estimated weights of two or five and 297 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: ten pounds. So these were these were sizeable critters. They 298 00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: looked rather like an enormous emu. So if you've seen 299 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 1: an emu in in person, you have like a good 300 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: starting point for imagining them. Like a wide, kind of 301 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: shaggy feathery body on long uh you know, lethal looking 302 00:16:56,800 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: legs with these great claws at the end, and a 303 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: long snaking neck you know, almost like a like a 304 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:06,159 Speaker 1: like an like an elephant's trunk, at least a too 305 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,199 Speaker 1: comparatively small head, yes, and the skeletons. It's almost like 306 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: a comically small looking head compared to the gigantic nous 307 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 1: of its body. But so another one thing I would 308 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: wonder about, of course, is okay, well we know it's 309 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,199 Speaker 1: probably flightless, but what does it do with its wings? 310 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 1: Does have a little a little like t rex arm 311 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,239 Speaker 1: talons up there or what's happening with the wings? Well, 312 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: that's that's typically what you expect, right. Flightless birds typically 313 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: have at least vestigial wings, a little shrunken remnants of 314 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 1: their long neglected flying limbs. Uh. Sometimes, as with an ostrich, 315 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: there's still some sort of a use for these wings. 316 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: The ostrich uses it's it's so it's little wings there 317 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: to stabilize them when they run and to aid in 318 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: courtship displays, even though they're you know, they do not 319 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: produce flight at all. Right, Well, I mean you can see, uh, 320 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: some birds that are thought to be flightless actually do 321 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: kind of glide near to the ground. Some I'm like 322 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: chickens can use their wings to kind of glide around 323 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 1: near the ground. Right. But but even failing that, like, 324 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 1: sometimes there's some purpose, even if it's a display, right, U. 325 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: And even if there's not a purpose, you might expect 326 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: to find, as with other flight was birds, to find 327 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,880 Speaker 1: some vestigial remain of that limb, you know, like little 328 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 1: bones or something. But the moa doesn't even have vestigial wings. 329 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: There are no little not like even like shrunken bones 330 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: that are left over. There is no trace of their 331 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,159 Speaker 1: wings at all. They have simply been erased through their evolution. 332 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: That's creepy. It's yeah, it's amazing. It's it's it's one 333 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 1: of the very few known creatures to possess only two limbs. 334 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 1: The only other creatures that I could run across that 335 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: were in a similar situation at all are the Mexican 336 00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: moble lizard and the Serenada salamanders. Both of these are 337 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: cases where creature has lost its hind legs and retains 338 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,080 Speaker 1: it's its front limbs. But you won't find any mammals 339 00:18:57,080 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: that are like this. Even the hind legs of the 340 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: great whales remain in this stigital form um. No, you 341 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: find no other birds, no dinosaurs, just these nine species 342 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: of giant land birds. Even the t rex w it's 343 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: you know, famously small, um you know, four limbs. So 344 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: we've we've discussed the various theories for why they kept 345 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,280 Speaker 1: even those those tiny limbs on the show before. But 346 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: even the t rex still has little little arms. The 347 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: moa has no arms, no, no wings at all. It's 348 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: just such a strange creature. The other day I was 349 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:35,399 Speaker 1: imagining it as a kind of biological unicycle. Yeah, yeah, 350 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,639 Speaker 1: it's it's so weird. It's it's like some of the 351 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 1: illustrations look oddly huggable, but it has no arms, it 352 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: has no wings, like there's nothing. I kept thinking like, 353 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: why does this, why does this amaze me so? And 354 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: I think part of it is that when we think 355 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:55,439 Speaker 1: about animals so I've noticed when when children think about animals, 356 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 1: they often embody the animal, you know, they have to 357 00:19:57,960 --> 00:20:01,359 Speaker 1: like act like the animal, uh, you know, pandomiment and 358 00:20:01,400 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: so forth, which is a fascinating tendency. By the way, 359 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:06,920 Speaker 1: why do they naturally do that? But I think even 360 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: if we're not like actually moving our bodies around, when 361 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: we look at animal, there's part of us that like 362 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: puts ourselves in its body, and we imagine our limbs 363 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: as its limbs. And this creature has has no uh, 364 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: nothing like arms at all. So if you're trying to 365 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: get this in your head, just you know, stop, if 366 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: you have a chance, look up some images of the moa, 367 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: of its skeletal remains, and also reconstructions of what it 368 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: would have looked like, and just focus on the fact 369 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 1: that it has no vestigial wings. It's just so wonderfully weird. Now. 370 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: I know you said it it looks huggable, and I 371 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,360 Speaker 1: sort of agree, but I do want to stress if 372 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 1: they actually recreate these things and bring them back from extinction, 373 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:50,480 Speaker 1: do not try to hug them. No, that's a very 374 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,679 Speaker 1: bad idea. Right. Yeah, we discussed how potentially lethal the 375 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: castle areas and the same can be said of the 376 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: ostrich So I think without a doubt the moa could 377 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: do some areous damage. You are still around to kick you. 378 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: Oh and by the way, if you if you want 379 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: to look up some images of the moa or just 380 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,640 Speaker 1: get additional information about them, I highly recommend checking out 381 00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: New Zealand Birds Online, created by ornithologists Colin ms Kelly. 382 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: It's a great Uh, it's it's great. It's one of 383 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: the sources we use for these three episodes. Uh. And 384 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: you'll find you find it an in z birds online 385 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: dot org dot in z and if you go to 386 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,880 Speaker 1: the search bar and you type in moa, you'll get 387 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: pictures of all nine varieties illustrations of all nine varieties 388 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: of moa. Now, one thing that's kind of interesting about 389 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: the moa is we often tend to think, okay, where 390 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: there are large land dwelling animals, they often tend to 391 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: be few in number. Right. But the but for a 392 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: long time, New Zealand was kind of the land of 393 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: the moa, right yeah, Yeah, The moa where New Zealand's 394 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: dominant land vertebrates and dominant herbivores. So they basically we 395 00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 1: went around consuming twigs, leaves, flowers, seeds, and berries from 396 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 1: a wide variety of trees, shrubs, and vines. They also 397 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: ate um mushrooms, which we'll get into a little later. Uh. 398 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: They were able to process a highly fibrous diet due 399 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: in part to large gizzard stones and a tough beak. 400 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: So I met those gizzard stones were involved in some 401 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: great curses probably so excellent magical items. Um. But yeah, 402 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: so they're they're basically every again, nine different varieties, like 403 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: basically adapting over time to the different environments of New Zealand. 404 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,159 Speaker 1: And Uh. They laid enormous eggs and are suspected to 405 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 1: have produced I think one or two per breeding season, 406 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: and the incubation period was likely longer than two months. 407 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: So big birds, big eggs, um more of a time 408 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: investment in a limited number of eggs, and the male 409 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: likely incubated the eggs, as this is what is seen 410 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: in extant ratites. I don't think I knew that. Now. 411 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: Just because it was the dominant land organism doesn't mean 412 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 1: it was completely unopposed, that it was off the predation hook, 413 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: because again, this is the world of birds, and and 414 00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: when you think of birds, you probably think of a 415 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 1: number of different flesh eating varieties, and so the moa 416 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: too had to contend with a mighty avian predator, and 417 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: that predator is the largest eagle to ever live. Right, 418 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 1: So at this point, I want to briefly come to 419 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: one of our favorite subjects, which is monsters. Why are 420 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: there so many monster movies about giant spiders but not 421 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 1: about giant lions? Uh? Well, a lion is already large enough, right, Yeah, exactly. 422 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: So I've got a hypothesis here. I think humans, whether 423 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: through instinct or learning or combination of both, do a 424 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: lot of intuitive phylogenetic sorting of predatory threat imagery. So 425 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: the idea of a large cat that kills and eats 426 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: you is in fact terrifying, but it's not especially unusual 427 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: in the terms we've talked about on the show before, 428 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,479 Speaker 1: in the terms of cognitive science of religion. It's not 429 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,959 Speaker 1: even minimally counterintuitive. It's just sort of a fact of nature. 430 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: So it would be terrifying if you were really faced 431 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: with it. But it's also not a particularly arresting image 432 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: in the memory, and that it doesn't stand out. I mean, 433 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,520 Speaker 1: I'm sure it would be a memory if it actually 434 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: happened to you, but probably not in terms of fictional storytelling. 435 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: Compared to something like a giant spider, A large man 436 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: eating spider is definitely counterintuitive. It's not something found in nature, 437 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 1: and because the image is unusual, it sticks in the 438 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: mind and captivates our fear. And I have to think 439 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:33,879 Speaker 1: about this for a while. Like the idea of a 440 00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,080 Speaker 1: human being eaten by an invertebrate like an insect or 441 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 1: an arachnid, not only feels scary, it feels perverse. It 442 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: violates the natural order. In Biblical terms, I think this 443 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:48,159 Speaker 1: is what would be called an abomination, and so I 444 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: think our brains do this kind of unconscious threat math 445 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: a lot. We sort potential threats from animals or organisms 446 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: more generally by morphology or body shape, which is a 447 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: simple way of sorting them along evolutionary relationships. Large carnivorous 448 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,040 Speaker 1: mammal shapes are natural predators. They are genuinely threatening in reality, 449 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: but less captivating of the terrified imagination. I think the 450 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: same goes for large reptilian shapes like crocodiles or sharks 451 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: or whatever. But here's another phylogenetic or morphological branch of 452 00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: potential threats. How about birds. I think we intuitively sort 453 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: birds into the non predator pile, right, Like we prey 454 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: on birds, they don't prey on us, right, Yeah, for 455 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: the most part. I mean now to come back to 456 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: the cassowary and the ostrich, Like, clearly these are both 457 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: potentially dangerous animals that they're encountered in the wild, but 458 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: they are you know, they're kind of exceptions from the rule. 459 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: They are a rather different rate of bird than the 460 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 1: the sort of bird that most of us are going 461 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: to encounter on a daily basis, right, And they wouldn't 462 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,159 Speaker 1: be trying to hunt us. Like, if we encountered one, 463 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 1: you know, a cassowary in the wild and it was 464 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: being aggressive, that would probably be it. You know, from 465 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: its point of view, it's acting in defense. Right now, 466 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: if we were to travel in time back to the 467 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: age of the terror birds and the demon ducks, and 468 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:09,680 Speaker 1: that would be a little it would be a different scenario. Yeah, 469 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: but I would say that that age might go a lot, 470 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 1: It might come a lot more recently into history than 471 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: we would think. Uh So, maybe this, this intuitive sorting 472 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: about birds is one of the main reasons movies that 473 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:26,120 Speaker 1: use dinosaurs as monsters resist putting feathers on them, right, 474 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: even though many predatory dinosaurs probably had feathers, we associate 475 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: feathers with birds, and birds are generally not thought of 476 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: as scary, right, Yeah, when, for instance, when we think 477 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: of all the times featheries are used for comedic effect, right, 478 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: like a feather pillow feathers, uh, you know, stuck to 479 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,240 Speaker 1: a person after you know, something sticky has has has 480 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: gotten on them, that sort of thing. Yeah, And so 481 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 1: there's that. But then on the other hand, and pretty 482 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: much in exactly the opposite direction of what I just said, 483 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 1: we want to think again about the counterintuitive thing. A 484 00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: lot of times monsters are great because they violate these categories. Know, 485 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: no spider actually praise on us in the wild, but 486 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,639 Speaker 1: we love the giant killer spider idea that sticks in 487 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: the memory. There are a lot of stories about it, 488 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: and there are stories of giant predatory birds that do 489 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: show up in monster mythology all around the world. There's 490 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: the rock, the cock a trice, the winged on zoo 491 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: from Sumerian and Babylonian myth like do you remember how 492 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,880 Speaker 1: in Bandersnatch it says that the demon packs is the 493 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: thief of destiny. The humanoid bird monster on Zoo is 494 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: the original thief of destiny. Do you know about the story? 495 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: And so in this uh, there's this ancient Akkadian epic 496 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: where on Zoo the bird the humanoid bird monster, steals 497 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: something called the Tablet of Destiny from the King of 498 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,439 Speaker 1: the Gods. And the Tablet of Destiny is kind of 499 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,719 Speaker 1: like this great law book that's sort of a like 500 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: the permanent record of everybody. It's got like all of 501 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: their you know, the I don't know, all their lawbreaking 502 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 1: or whatever written down in it. And possessing this document, 503 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: this tablet gives you the power to rule the world. 504 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 1: And so when on Zoo the bird monster steals it, 505 00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: he has to be destroyed I think by Marduke. Well 506 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: that's what Marduk's for rights, that's pretty much his job. 507 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean, Marduke. It's funny Marduk is the hero of 508 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: the story, but in in my feeling, Marduke's also he's 509 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: often kind of the party pooper, Like there's a great 510 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: monster getting up to no good and then Marduke comes 511 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: in and just puts a lid on everything. Yeah, he's 512 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: the humanoid figure that that gets rid of the interesting characters. 513 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,359 Speaker 1: He's like the assistant principle that comes in and stops 514 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: the party. Um. But so I think the bird as 515 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: man eater story. It does pass the minimally counterintuitive test 516 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: for mythological resilience. If a giant hawk could swoop down 517 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: from the sky and bite your head off, that image 518 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: that makes a good story that would stick in your memory. Um. So, 519 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: I'm not sure how exactly that goes in conflict with 520 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,080 Speaker 1: the fact that, like people won't put feathers on dinosaurs 521 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: and movies because they're not scary enough. Maybe maybe these 522 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: things two things are just both true and in competition 523 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: with each other. Like the feathered monster has a cognitive 524 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 1: advantage because it's more counterintuitive stands out in memory, but 525 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: the scaly monster has a cognitive advantage because it's physical 526 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,719 Speaker 1: features are more naturally prone to activate our threat responses. 527 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what you think is going on there, 528 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: but as we we love to think about monsters, and 529 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: I think that that tension is interesting. Yeah, and and 530 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: again we're talking about the idea of monstrous birds here, 531 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,080 Speaker 1: not just birds perceived as a threat, because certainly there 532 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: are people that are afraid of birds or a little 533 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: wigged out by birds when they're close to them. Certainly 534 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 1: Hitchcock's the birds managed to strike a nerve with people. 535 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, the idea of a a bird being large 536 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: enough to do not just like pester you or two 537 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: uh or too certainly in a large number attack you, 538 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: but like a single handedly take you out and consume you, 539 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 1: to prey on you, to to hunt you as if 540 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: you were its dinner. Yeah. Uh. Now I want to 541 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,080 Speaker 1: talk for a moment about a very important fossil in 542 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: physical anthropology, which is a fossil skull that is between 543 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: two and three million years old. I think last time 544 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 1: I saw the dating it was like two point eight 545 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: million years old. They thought it was unearthed from a 546 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: quarry in South Africa in nineteen four in a place 547 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: called Tongue. And it is the skull of a young 548 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: hominid now known to be from the extinct human relative 549 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: Australopithecus africanus. And note that this is a different species 550 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,960 Speaker 1: from australi Epithecus afarensis, which is the species to which 551 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: the famous Lucy skeleton belonged. Uh So, this Africanus skull 552 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:32,479 Speaker 1: is known as the Tongue child, and evidence indicates that 553 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: this hominid died when it was about three years old, 554 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: and we actually have a lot of evidence now indicating 555 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: exactly what happened when it died, how its death came about. 556 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: Just a warning. This is a kind of sad and 557 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: grizzly story, but also biologically fascinating. So the tongue child 558 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: skull has puncture marks in the bone at the bottom 559 00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: of the eye sockets, and these puncture marks are similar 560 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: to the marks made on other man mammals like monkeys 561 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: when eagles attack them today. Also, the skull was found 562 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: in a soil bed along with eggshell fragments, as well 563 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: as the bones of many other small animals, including rodents, lizards, 564 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: juvenile antelopes, and baboons, and a lot of these other 565 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: bones also show damage that looks like it could have 566 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,720 Speaker 1: been caused by the beaks and talents of a large eagle. 567 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: The South African paleontologist Lee Burger has argued that it 568 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: was an eagle that killed this child. He argued for 569 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,360 Speaker 1: the eagle predation hypothesis. For example, in in a short 570 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: communication I was reading to the journal the American Journal 571 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: of Physical Anthropology in two thousands six, writing that quote 572 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 1: re examination of the tongue juvenile hominin specimen, the type 573 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: specimen of Australia Epithecus africanus reveals previously undescribed damage to 574 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,960 Speaker 1: the orbital floors that is nearly identical to that scene 575 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: in the crania of monkeys preyed upon by crowned hawk Eagles. 576 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: And Burger argued that this evidence, along with the strange 577 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: collection of other animal bones at the side of the 578 00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: tongue child's discovery quote, strongly supports the hypothesis that a 579 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: bird of prey was an accumulating agent at tongue and 580 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 1: that the tongue child itself was a victim of a 581 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,400 Speaker 1: bird of prey. I think this is an example of 582 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: how scientific writing so often has a way of stating 583 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: things that is like facially abstract, bordering on euphemistic, but 584 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: so much so that it actually sounds more horrifying. So 585 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: this bird of prey millions of years ago was not 586 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,880 Speaker 1: a bone collector but an accumulating agent. Well, that makes 587 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: it look it sounds like it was working for some dark, 588 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: other force. Right now, if this hypothesis about the town 589 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 1: child is correct, uh, and from what I read, I 590 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: think it probably is. Uh. We don't know for sure 591 00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:58,480 Speaker 1: exactly what kind of bird killed the child, but the 592 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,480 Speaker 1: paper I was just quoting from raws attention to the 593 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: similarities between the marks on the fossil skull and the 594 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: wounds left by a modern bird of prey. It still 595 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: exists today, called the crowned hawk eagle or stefan Oidas coronatus, 596 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 1: also just known as the crowned eagle. This is a 597 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: truly frightening and magnificent bird, so it lives throughout central, 598 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:27,880 Speaker 1: southern and eastern Africa, mostly inhabiting like mountains and forests. 599 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:32,360 Speaker 1: Rainforest places with tall trees also sometimes found in the savannahs. 600 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,640 Speaker 1: These eagles can weigh up to ten pounds or about 601 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 1: five kilograms, with a wingspan of up to six feet 602 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 1: or about a hundred and eighty centimeters. They're large, they're 603 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 1: not the largest eagle. The females are generally larger than 604 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,720 Speaker 1: the males, and the crowned eagle gets its name from 605 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: a crest of feathers on the head. Sometimes it's got 606 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 1: feathers sticking straight up, but sometimes it looks just like 607 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:55,400 Speaker 1: a bulging of the feathers towards the back of the 608 00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,440 Speaker 1: head and looks a little bit like Gary Oldman's weird 609 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,200 Speaker 1: vampire bun head from the Francis Ford Coppola Dracula. It 610 00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:04,160 Speaker 1: does really Yeah, do do you see what I'm saying? 611 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: And plush? The spirit of of the two are closely 612 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 1: linked here. Yes, I imagine this eagle also loves the 613 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,640 Speaker 1: children of the night because like Dracula, this bird is 614 00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: an astonishingly strong hunter. They've been known to kill prey 615 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,239 Speaker 1: more than four times their size. And I think this 616 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: is this is key too, because certainly, even in an 617 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: urban environment like in Atlanta, we see vultures and hawks 618 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,120 Speaker 1: fairly common. Hawks especially, you see them around a lot 619 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: because there's a lot of a lot of creatures for 620 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:37,759 Speaker 1: them to prey on. We went into the the urban 621 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: advantages of the hawk in our one of our previous episodes, 622 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 1: Oh Yeah. We talked with Jason Warred about the about 623 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: the peregrine falcon and it's urban hunting methods where it'll 624 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: sit up on top of a building and wait for 625 00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: its prey birds to fly underneath and then it die 626 00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: of bombs them from above. But generally you think about 627 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: a bird like this grabbing a bird of this nature, 628 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: grabbing something like man maybe a sad and maybe it 629 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,440 Speaker 1: grabs a squirrel. Uh, maybe maybe it even gets a 630 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: small dog. But you don't think about them grabbing something 631 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,280 Speaker 1: four times their size right now. If they grab something 632 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,479 Speaker 1: four times their size, they're not going to be able 633 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: to carry it away. But they can totally kill this 634 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: thing and either eat it where it falls, or take 635 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: it apart and take pieces with them. So when attacking 636 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: large prey, the predatory strategy of the crowned eagle often involves. 637 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: It'll it'll involve swooping down from above and then using 638 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: their meaty legs and fearsome hind talents to break the 639 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,719 Speaker 1: prey animals spine when they make contact. Uh. They hunt 640 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: a diverse range of prey, including monkeys, antelopes, and other 641 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,960 Speaker 1: small mammals and lizards. Uh. And they, like I was saying, 642 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,959 Speaker 1: two basically feasting strategies. Once they've got a prey animal dead, 643 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,520 Speaker 1: if it's small enough, they'll try to carry it with 644 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:53,560 Speaker 1: them up to a safe tree top to eat at 645 00:35:53,560 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: their leisure. If the prey is too large to carry, 646 00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:58,640 Speaker 1: they will either eat it where they have killed it, 647 00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: or sometimes they'll they'll they'll tear you know, chunks of 648 00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 1: it off. They'll tear off ahead or tear off an 649 00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: arm or something and take it away with them, one 650 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: piece at a time. Another interesting fact about them, the 651 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,799 Speaker 1: crowned hawk eagle sometimes uh. Well, so, they generally lay 652 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 1: one or two eggs per nest brood, and if there 653 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,200 Speaker 1: are two eggs, when the eggs hatch, the larger of 654 00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: the two chicks usually kills its sibling. The parents are 655 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: known to guard their newborn chicks very ferociously. You know, 656 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: they violently repel encroaching animals. And so you might have 657 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: a question, well, would these powerful hunters that can kill 658 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 1: animals much larger than themselves, would they be able to 659 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: attack humans today? Uh? Possibly, but if so, it is rare. 660 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,920 Speaker 1: I don't wanna, you know, get you in the idea 661 00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 1: that you should be afraid of or demonize these birds. 662 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: But there are a few accounts of crowned eagles attacking children. 663 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: The accounts are mostly older. It was kind of hard 664 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:55,759 Speaker 1: for me to tell how much stock we should put 665 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,320 Speaker 1: in them. But such a claim of crowned eagle attacks 666 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: on humans does not at all seemed to be unheard of, 667 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 1: and they do regularly attack monkeys, which of course are 668 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: shaped a lot like us, and small human children would 669 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: be within the size range of their prey. Remember, they 670 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 1: can attack prey more than four times their size, so 671 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: they can attack animals that are maybe like forty five pounds, 672 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 1: or again be in awe of their predatory strings. I 673 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: don't mean to demonize these animals, because I know their 674 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,279 Speaker 1: habitats are threatened now and their numbers are declining, and 675 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: but in general, a smile child is likely to to 676 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 1: flip certain switches in a in a sizeable predator that 677 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: might normally not not switch on when they see a 678 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: fully grown human. Oh well, yeah, I don't know if 679 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: you ever looked up those videos on the internet of 680 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: small children against the glass and like lying enclosures at 681 00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,239 Speaker 1: a zoo. Oh, I mean, I've I've taken my son 682 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,320 Speaker 1: when he was smaller. I remember taking him to uh 683 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 1: some sort of a zoo like uh place somewhere else 684 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:00,800 Speaker 1: in Arizona. I think maybe it was Arizona even But 685 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,400 Speaker 1: but when we were there, it's like there was a 686 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 1: one part. We're walking out there are these cages, and 687 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: they had some large predatory cats, and you can just 688 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: see them like there's a change in the way they 689 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 1: are viewing their surroundings. There's a change in their body language. 690 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: You can you can tell that they're you know, even 691 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 1: if they're not actively hunting your child, they're reacting to 692 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,600 Speaker 1: it as if it is potential food. Yes, I mean 693 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: the same way that the human instinct is activated by 694 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: a small child. You know, most adult humans would see 695 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,000 Speaker 1: a small child and want to say, is that child okay? 696 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,839 Speaker 1: You know you want to take care of them delicious. Yes, 697 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 1: the looks very small, very weak, easy, easy kill. Not 698 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: to shame any of these predators, that's just that's just 699 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,680 Speaker 1: the coating. That's the basic UH way of the tooth 700 00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:47,359 Speaker 1: and claw. They're right. So you've got these claims of 701 00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 1: modern eagle attacks on on human children. But if these 702 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: claims are generally correct, even then it does appear to 703 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: be a kind of unusual thing to happen, you know, 704 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,080 Speaker 1: something that just happens here. And there was there for 705 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,280 Speaker 1: a predatory bird that would have had humans more firmly 706 00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 1: within its prey buffet, but you know, even larger, even 707 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: more diverse in the kinds of prey it would seek out. 708 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:13,239 Speaker 1: And that brings us back to New Zealand. UH in 709 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: the age of the Moa and the MOA's primary enemy. 710 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: It's it's primary predator, the has eagle. So the Maori 711 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 1: people of New Zealand have had legends of gigantic birds. 712 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: Apparently there are several different legends of gigantic birds that 713 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: have been linked somewhat too real bird species. The two 714 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: different legendary bird monsters that I was reading about from 715 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,759 Speaker 1: the Maori where the ta Hokioi or the Pua Kai. 716 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,279 Speaker 1: But there may be other legends that sort of fit 717 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 1: into this mix as well. And uh and in real quick, 718 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,239 Speaker 1: I want to again reminder that the Maori came to 719 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: New Zealand less than a thousand years ago, so we're 720 00:39:54,640 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 1: talking um roughly. Eh. Well, we'll get more into into 721 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 1: the history of the Maori and they're they're coming to 722 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,360 Speaker 1: New Zealand and their eventual interaction with other human beings 723 00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,879 Speaker 1: uh in our in our second episode. But just remind 724 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,640 Speaker 1: everybody about the time frame we're talking here. So this 725 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:16,160 Speaker 1: this giant bird monster of Maori legend. It's a huge 726 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,720 Speaker 1: bird with black and white feathers. It's got a red 727 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:22,040 Speaker 1: crest and yellow green coloring on the tips of its wings. 728 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: It was believed in some legends to have raised the 729 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: hawk to the heavens and was known in other some 730 00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,360 Speaker 1: legends as a man eater. It's not only a feature 731 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: of Maori oral tradition, but it's it's terrifying frame appears 732 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 1: in archaic rock carvings of the area, and many paleontologists 733 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: now believe that the this animal, the ta hokioi or 734 00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: the Puakai, is not purely fictional mythical as a monster 735 00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: like the on Zoo. It may be the cultural memory 736 00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: of this real giant predatory bird of New Zealand, known 737 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,520 Speaker 1: as the Hosts eagle or Harpagurnus mori, which again would 738 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,719 Speaker 1: have been the predator that preyed on the moa because 739 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,840 Speaker 1: again less than a thousand years ago when the Maori arrived, 740 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: when the archaic mallory arrived in New Zealand, they would 741 00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:16,120 Speaker 1: have encountered, uh the nine species of moa. They would 742 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 1: have encountered Hosts eagle in its predation of the moa. 743 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 1: Like all this was the world, this unique environment was 744 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,600 Speaker 1: in full swing when they first arrived. Hosts eagle was 745 00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,240 Speaker 1: a beast. I think if we saw it we would 746 00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,480 Speaker 1: be in awe It could weigh up to fifteen kilograms, 747 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,560 Speaker 1: which is about thirty three pounds. The female might have 748 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: had a wingspan of up to three meters or almost 749 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:43,800 Speaker 1: ten feet. Like other birds of prey, often the female 750 00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,920 Speaker 1: was larger than the male. Remember that the most powerful 751 00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: predatory bird in the world today not the largest, but 752 00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: the most powerful hunter, the crowned eagle, weighs up to 753 00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 1: only about ten pounds or about five kilograms. This is 754 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: like three times bigger, and with their size and hunting power, 755 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:04,600 Speaker 1: hosts eagle could and did regularly take down moa as prey. 756 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,240 Speaker 1: To think about how amazing this is given the size 757 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: of the moa. What were we saying about the size 758 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: of the moa earlier? Oh, we talked about ten to 759 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 1: twelve feet with their with their head stretched out. I 760 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: mean even the even the bush moa was like four 761 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:20,080 Speaker 1: and a half feet tall, you know, like, yeah, the 762 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 1: little bushma. Yeah, I'm sure they were. They were really 763 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,719 Speaker 1: at a loss here. So a predatory encounter might have 764 00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: involved waiting at say a tree top near a water source, 765 00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: and then waiting for a moa to come out and 766 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:33,960 Speaker 1: take a drink, and the hosts eagle could then swoop 767 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 1: down at the moa at eighty kilometers per hour about 768 00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 1: fifty miles per hour. And again, think of something that 769 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,120 Speaker 1: weighs forty pounds hitting you at about fifty miles per hour. 770 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,160 Speaker 1: Some forensic analysis of the bones of the hosts eagle, 771 00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: I know there was some analysis done through cat scans 772 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: and things. Uh. This shows that the eagle's body was 773 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,280 Speaker 1: by design able to absorb shocks from high impact speed. 774 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: Um So at the impact the predator comes in, talents 775 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,279 Speaker 1: out and it has talents that could penetrate bone. So 776 00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 1: after killing the moa or the other large prey bird, 777 00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: the eagle could usually take its time eating the kill 778 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,200 Speaker 1: in the spot because they were not large mammalian predators 779 00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: to worry about coming along. Because this is New Zealand, Yeah, yeah, 780 00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:19,839 Speaker 1: I've I've also heard it. Heard it described that the 781 00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: talents of Hassi eagle were about the size of a 782 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,880 Speaker 1: tiger's clause. That's how big they were. Yes, So I 783 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,640 Speaker 1: was reading an article in The Independent that interviewed Paul Scofield, 784 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: curator of vertebrate zoology at the Canterbury Museum. This was 785 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,360 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine and Schofield is also the author 786 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:38,960 Speaker 1: of one of the papers that was doing the forensic 787 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,399 Speaker 1: analysis of the hostiagle skeleton. And also, by the way, 788 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 1: the Canterbury Museum is the same place where Alan Curnow 789 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:48,200 Speaker 1: saw the Moa skeleton that he writes the poem about. 790 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: But so Schofield says, quote, it was certainly capable of 791 00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:56,280 Speaker 1: swooping down and taking a child. They had the ability 792 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,880 Speaker 1: to not only strike with their talents, but to close 793 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,600 Speaker 1: the talents and put them through quite solid objects such 794 00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: as a pelvis. It was designed as a killing machine. 795 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,680 Speaker 1: So think about So it comes in with the claws extended, 796 00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:11,920 Speaker 1: can hit you at high speed with amazing force and 797 00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: then latch on with the claws to cut through flesh. 798 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: And this would of course leave you bleeding and all 799 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 1: of that. And Schofield said, has eagle wasn't just the 800 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,719 Speaker 1: equivalent of a giant predatory bird, It was the equivalent 801 00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,759 Speaker 1: of a lion. Wow, Yeah, a lion of the air. Again, 802 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,280 Speaker 1: it's just a it's like an order of magnitude beyond 803 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: any kind of flying predatory bird that we have we've 804 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: become accustomed to in our our world today. Yeah, I mean, 805 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:40,480 Speaker 1: I guess I think like a like a griffin, you know, 806 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,840 Speaker 1: like this this is a flying it's like a flying 807 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: big cat if a leopard could fly. So again the 808 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,239 Speaker 1: Maori arrived, they encounter this world and uh, you know, 809 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:53,560 Speaker 1: and we'll discuss the details of this later, but basically 810 00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: the moment would last scarcely more than a century after 811 00:44:57,120 --> 00:45:00,799 Speaker 1: that they were they were rather swiftly a adicated by 812 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: human beings, and therefore hoss eagle. Since it depended on 813 00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: the moa for food, it went away as well. But 814 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 1: there would have been time there, so there was. There was, 815 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,440 Speaker 1: There was a period of time and Mallory history for 816 00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,760 Speaker 1: their for the archaic mallory and for the moa hunting mallory, 817 00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 1: for for them to have their children picked off by 818 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,600 Speaker 1: this terrifying bird, this terrifying predator of the sky. It's 819 00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: hard to imagine, but I just did. Well. I mean, 820 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: they're terrifying predators of the land. Are bad enough when 821 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:32,239 Speaker 1: they can come from above. I don't know what. That 822 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: just seems like that would that would entail a whole 823 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: reordering of the way you view, you know, danger and 824 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,879 Speaker 1: safety in the world, because you generally think the sky 825 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:45,879 Speaker 1: at least is safe. I don't need to look that way. 826 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,439 Speaker 1: All right, We're gonna take a quick break, but we'll 827 00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:56,840 Speaker 1: be right back and for more discussions of the mighty moa. Alright, 828 00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,840 Speaker 1: we're back. So one question that comes up. We're in 829 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 1: man eationing this this clash between these enormous moa and 830 00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: this enormous eagle clash of the giant birds, and so 831 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,000 Speaker 1: I was wondering, well, how does how would a giant 832 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,479 Speaker 1: moa defend itself? And like what kind of fight could 833 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: it put up? So we already mentioned how if we 834 00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: look to extent to ratites, we looked to the Austrians, 835 00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:20,480 Speaker 1: we looked at the Castle Wary, we see excellent examples 836 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:23,440 Speaker 1: of just how ferocious a kick from one of these 837 00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:27,040 Speaker 1: creatures would be. But then you start image. So if 838 00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:31,319 Speaker 1: you're imagining, say, say an unarmed human uh coming up 839 00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:34,120 Speaker 1: and trying to start uh sort of fight with say 840 00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,880 Speaker 1: an Austria's or Castlewary or perhaps a moa, that's not 841 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,040 Speaker 1: a good idea. You can imagine how that's gonna go 842 00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: kick wise, um, you know, or or any type of 843 00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 1: land predator trying to mess with one of these these creatures. 844 00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,960 Speaker 1: But if something is coming from above like it does seem, 845 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:52,920 Speaker 1: and I couldn't find a lot of sources on this 846 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,040 Speaker 1: about like what the MOA's defensive capabilities would have would 847 00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,320 Speaker 1: have been But if it certainly have it had trouble 848 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:01,600 Speaker 1: kicking that high. What could it do if something was 849 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,080 Speaker 1: attacking its back? You know, it could it could peck 850 00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,600 Speaker 1: at it. It could use its beak certainly, Um maybe, 851 00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 1: and this is just me guessing. I'm thinking maybe it 852 00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: could whip it with its neck a little bit. That is, 853 00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: that is the strategy we see with giraffes. You know, 854 00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: there's there's footage of giraffes fighting each other with using 855 00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,520 Speaker 1: them next as these broad whips, and certainly the cat. 856 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: Certainly the MOA's neck was was long and tough, but 857 00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:29,279 Speaker 1: I don't know if it could actually have used it effectively, 858 00:47:29,600 --> 00:47:33,400 Speaker 1: certainly against host eagle, which again is this this lion 859 00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:36,920 Speaker 1: of the sky attacking it with enormous talents and perhaps 860 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: making pretty short work of it if it got the drop. Well, yeah, 861 00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,080 Speaker 1: if you're coming out a large bird like the moa 862 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,880 Speaker 1: from below, I mean obviously that that's not the place 863 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 1: you want to be. But what does it do on 864 00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,520 Speaker 1: its back? I mean, it seems like the perfect place 865 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:50,840 Speaker 1: to pray on it, and you can make wounds on 866 00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 1: the back of a large bird. Like this, that is 867 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 1: it's exposed and you know, if you can get the 868 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 1: talents in there and get out, even if you don't 869 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:01,200 Speaker 1: break its back when you first hit it. Uh, probably 870 00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: just like what bleeds to death, it's it's there and 871 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: drowns in its own blood. Yeah. So it seems like 872 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:10,239 Speaker 1: a case where the moa was just particularly vulnerable to 873 00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:13,120 Speaker 1: hass Siegel. But at the same time, it means hoss 874 00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:17,439 Speaker 1: Eagle was particularly dependent upon the moa like they were. 875 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,960 Speaker 1: They were locked in this. In this you can say 876 00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: eternal struggle. I guess you want to get be dramatic 877 00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,759 Speaker 1: about it, but really an eternal balance until until this 878 00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: new force, this new terror, came to unbalance that that equation. Yeah. 879 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:35,279 Speaker 1: Well it's um. I mean, it's weird to think about 880 00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,240 Speaker 1: because like when you see a predator chasing prey in nature, 881 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,279 Speaker 1: I think naturally most of our sympathies are with the 882 00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,520 Speaker 1: prey animal, and that makes sense. Like you know, if 883 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,320 Speaker 1: you were to see one person trying to hurt another person, 884 00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,360 Speaker 1: your sympathies are with the victim. But in in nature 885 00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:52,120 Speaker 1: you could think about it as a as a kind 886 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,200 Speaker 1: of balanced thing because the predator is also trying it's 887 00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,920 Speaker 1: just trying to survive. It is fighting starvation every every 888 00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,360 Speaker 1: day in this same way that the prey animal is 889 00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:03,640 Speaker 1: fighting the predator that's trying to kill it. Right, And 890 00:49:03,680 --> 00:49:05,360 Speaker 1: again we we already mentioned We'll get into some of 891 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 1: the genetic data on this in the next episode. But 892 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,919 Speaker 1: the MoMA was highly successful and it was spread all 893 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,840 Speaker 1: over New Zealand, so you know, it was a situation 894 00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,440 Speaker 1: where it could support a dominant predator like this. Their 895 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: numbers were such that the predator was ultimately playing an 896 00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 1: important role in supporting a healthy moa population. Yeah, totally. 897 00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,000 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing I've read is that the hostiegel 898 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: probably would have been very few in number, right, like 899 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,000 Speaker 1: most apex predators are, right, you know, they tend to 900 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,799 Speaker 1: be their needs to be many fewer of them than 901 00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,000 Speaker 1: there are of the prey animals or the or the 902 00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:44,680 Speaker 1: ecosystem can't sustain itself. Now, it's it's easy to grasp 903 00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: only the extinction of the moa came hand in hand 904 00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 1: with the extinction of of the great hass eagle, But 905 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,719 Speaker 1: extinction impacts a wide variety of species, and when you 906 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,880 Speaker 1: have such an established creature as the nine moa species, 907 00:49:58,160 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: you have a lot of organisms that come to depend 908 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: upon them. So you know, you're talking about bacteria, parasites, 909 00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 1: fist scavengers, predators, but also whatever plants and fungi have 910 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,880 Speaker 1: come to depend on their feeding habits to propagate. And 911 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,760 Speaker 1: so I ran across an interesting study that got into 912 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,360 Speaker 1: some of this. In two thousand eighteen, researchers from the 913 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,800 Speaker 1: University of Adelaide's Australian Center for Ancient DNA or a 914 00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,560 Speaker 1: c a D published a study in the journal the 915 00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:30,160 Speaker 1: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences about the contents 916 00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:34,680 Speaker 1: of dried dung from four varieties of giant moa. Thank god, 917 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: we're getting into some copper lights. Yeah, I mean we can. 918 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,080 Speaker 1: You can learn a lot from copper copper lights. You know, 919 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,959 Speaker 1: they're highly useful and uncovering the especially in this case 920 00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:47,320 Speaker 1: the genetic records of diet pathogens and even the behavior 921 00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:51,240 Speaker 1: of the creatures in question. So the researchers here found 922 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,600 Speaker 1: that the moa consumed a wide variety of mushrooms and 923 00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,799 Speaker 1: fung gui, including species that are critical for New Zealand's 924 00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:01,800 Speaker 1: beach for us, and they were they were very interested. 925 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:05,560 Speaker 1: The researchers were very interested in exploring the prior but 926 00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:10,080 Speaker 1: unproven hypothesis that many New Zealand fungi with bright colored 927 00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:15,560 Speaker 1: fruiting bodies are adapted for dispersal by native ground dwelling birds. 928 00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,680 Speaker 1: Now this couldn't really be tested because all the moa 929 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,600 Speaker 1: are extinct, But but this gave them a chance to 930 00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 1: sort of to explore it a little bit, right, Okay, 931 00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,759 Speaker 1: So in general they found confirmation regarding diet in a 932 00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 1: few moa species. So they found that the little bush moa, 933 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,879 Speaker 1: for instance, which would have resided in the rainforest, fed 934 00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:40,560 Speaker 1: mostly on fibrous forest vegetation. Upland moa and giant moa 935 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:46,799 Speaker 1: were widespread dietary generalist, with upland moa populating the higher altitudes, 936 00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:49,080 Speaker 1: so they would have eaten a wider variety of things. 937 00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,840 Speaker 1: But the mushroom contents of the moa dung uh certainly 938 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:58,000 Speaker 1: contained plant symbiotic fungi that the wide ranging moa would 939 00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:02,799 Speaker 1: have spread as they ranged, grazed, and pooped. According to 940 00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:09,600 Speaker 1: lead author Alex Boast, then PhD student at Land Care Research, quote, worryingly, 941 00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:13,640 Speaker 1: introduced mammals which consume these mushrooms don't appear to produce 942 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:18,240 Speaker 1: fertile spores. So this critical ecosystem function of the giant 943 00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:22,320 Speaker 1: birds has been lost, with serious implications for the long 944 00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:26,080 Speaker 1: term health of New Zealand's beach forest. So what does 945 00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:30,400 Speaker 1: that mean that? Um, the mushrooms passing through the digestive 946 00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,600 Speaker 1: system of the birds would have still been reproductively viable. 947 00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,520 Speaker 1: But going through mammal digestive systems, they're not. Right. The 948 00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,440 Speaker 1: mammals that have come in to fill that ecological niche 949 00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:43,480 Speaker 1: that was left by the by the now extinct moa 950 00:52:43,800 --> 00:52:46,879 Speaker 1: like there, they'll eat the same mushrooms. Perhaps they'll even 951 00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,520 Speaker 1: spread them, uh even you know, travel you know, to 952 00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:54,240 Speaker 1: decent distances. But the spores they leave behind are not viable. 953 00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,880 Speaker 1: They're not able to actually uh fulfill the role that 954 00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:01,879 Speaker 1: the moa fulfilled in spreading those spores. And again, those 955 00:53:02,120 --> 00:53:06,799 Speaker 1: the mushrooms uh have this crucial relationship with with the 956 00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:10,520 Speaker 1: trees of the beach forest. So um, this is again 957 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,560 Speaker 1: I think it's just a it's a wonderful example of 958 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,800 Speaker 1: of the cascading effects of extinction. They also found evidence 959 00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,920 Speaker 1: of parasites in those copper lights. They found a quote 960 00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:26,000 Speaker 1: surprising diversity of parasites, many completely new to science. Oh boy, 961 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,520 Speaker 1: and these are these are largely parasites that would have 962 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,600 Speaker 1: been exclusive to the Moa uh and or the Moa 963 00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,800 Speaker 1: species in question that just went extinct with their hosts. 964 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:39,520 Speaker 1: And these included, for instance, various types of nematodes uh. 965 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,520 Speaker 1: So you know again, you you you can't take a 966 00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:45,839 Speaker 1: species out of the out of the game without impacting 967 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,800 Speaker 1: numerous other species as well. And it's certainly going to 968 00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,080 Speaker 1: be the case when you have such a firmly established 969 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,759 Speaker 1: and dominant species as the Moa of New Zealand. I'm 970 00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:59,799 Speaker 1: mourned for the Moa. Yeah, it's hard not to, you know, 971 00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,920 Speaker 1: I mean, I do want to stress that that, and 972 00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:06,680 Speaker 1: we'll get more into the relationship between the Moa and 973 00:54:06,719 --> 00:54:09,080 Speaker 1: the Maori people in our next episode. But it is 974 00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,680 Speaker 1: crucial not to not to feel a special amount of 975 00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:16,720 Speaker 1: shame over over the Maori in this situation, because again, 976 00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:20,880 Speaker 1: any time human beings have come into contact with new ecosystems, 977 00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,960 Speaker 1: they have brought extinction with them. We change everywhere we go. Yeah, 978 00:54:25,000 --> 00:54:27,160 Speaker 1: and that's that is just that is the nature of 979 00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:30,799 Speaker 1: human beings. Um, you know, no, no matter where they go, 980 00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:34,120 Speaker 1: no matter what the time period. We did a previous 981 00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,040 Speaker 1: episode where we talked about Roman extinctions just brought on 982 00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:40,719 Speaker 1: by the spread of Roman civilization. Um, and we previously 983 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:45,840 Speaker 1: mentioned the elephant bird of Madagascar, similar situation. Uh it was, 984 00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,360 Speaker 1: it was doing really well than humans came, and that 985 00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,640 Speaker 1: spelled its doom. Now, the story of that doom in 986 00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,160 Speaker 1: the case of the moa is something we're going to 987 00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,520 Speaker 1: get more into in our next episode. Though. You know, 988 00:54:56,600 --> 00:54:59,640 Speaker 1: I just thought of another thing from Madagascar. I believe 989 00:54:59,719 --> 00:55:02,960 Speaker 1: I was just reading earlier today that a an extinct 990 00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:07,359 Speaker 1: relative of the crowned eagle of Africa was the Madagascar 991 00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,919 Speaker 1: crowned eagle. But it's gone because when humans came to Madagascar, 992 00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:15,840 Speaker 1: they hunted its primary prey animal, the giant lemur, to extinction, 993 00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,520 Speaker 1: and then it had no prey anymore. There you go, 994 00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,400 Speaker 1: all right, So we just keep doing it, and we 995 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:26,480 Speaker 1: just keep doing it, and yes, some some amazing creatures 996 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,400 Speaker 1: have been lost along the way. But I tell you, 997 00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:31,480 Speaker 1: the moa. It I'm just really impressed with this animal. 998 00:55:31,520 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: I think it is my It is my my new 999 00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:37,240 Speaker 1: spirit animal for these trying times we live in. Uh 1000 00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:41,000 Speaker 1: I will I will ease myself into the imagined arms 1001 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,520 Speaker 1: of the moa. It has no arms, It has no wings, 1002 00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:46,560 Speaker 1: but there's something about its nature that I can I 1003 00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,360 Speaker 1: can cuddle up with and uh and find comfort in. 1004 00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:51,640 Speaker 1: You're gonna become the lower ax of the rat eye. 1005 00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: It's you're gonna go on a quest where you want 1006 00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,480 Speaker 1: people to stop using the ostrich as the example animal 1007 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,880 Speaker 1: of like cowardice and ignorance. I'm gonna have to I 1008 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:02,359 Speaker 1: need to get out of the house and go look 1009 00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:05,160 Speaker 1: at some rattites this uh, this weekend. There is there's 1010 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,040 Speaker 1: an email that lives fairly close to my house. Yeah, 1011 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:12,200 Speaker 1: what's its name? Big Glue? Biglue the email. I don't 1012 00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,600 Speaker 1: think I may have to go feed Big Glue this weekend. Okay, 1013 00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:16,480 Speaker 1: I don't think I know about Big Glue. Oh well, 1014 00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,239 Speaker 1: I'll tell you about it when we go at the air. 1015 00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:22,120 Speaker 1: You can find Big Lu for yourself alright. In the meantime, 1016 00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:24,680 Speaker 1: go and check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow 1017 00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:26,520 Speaker 1: your Mind. They're a bunch of them. You can find 1018 00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,160 Speaker 1: them wherever you get your podcasts, and you can also 1019 00:56:30,200 --> 00:56:32,319 Speaker 1: find us by going to special Blow your Mind dot 1020 00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,560 Speaker 1: com that will shoot you over to the I heart 1021 00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,000 Speaker 1: listing for this show wherever you get the show. Just 1022 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:40,440 Speaker 1: make sure you rate review and subscribe. Huge thanks as 1023 00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,960 Speaker 1: always to our excellent audio producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. 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