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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. As time goes by you,

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Speaker 1: if you're all alone, you long for companionship. Many of

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Speaker 1: us do, I think, And it's tough. It's tough to

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Speaker 1: try to discern who you're gonna let into your little bubble.

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Speaker 1: You don't know, you know, particularly in the world that

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Speaker 1: we live in nowadays, you don't know who's gonna show

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Speaker 1: up at your door. You don't know who's on the

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Speaker 1: motherland line, you don't know who you're texting with. Today

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Speaker 1: on body Bags, I want to talk about a young

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Speaker 1: lady Hammy Joe Blant. I want to talk about her murder.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bags joining

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Speaker 1: me Jackie Howard, executive producer of Crime Stories. Would Nancy

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Speaker 1: Grace scary world out there, Jackie? When it comes to dating,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't you agree? Oh? Absolutely, Joe Tammy. Joe Blanton was

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Speaker 1: dating forty one year old Joseph ober Hansley and it

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Speaker 1: was a very volatile relationship and she broke up with him.

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Speaker 1: She was so afraid of ober Hansley that she had

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Speaker 1: the locks changed on her home. And here is an

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Speaker 1: example of why. The day before Tammy Joe Blanton was

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Speaker 1: found murdered. She had made a call to nine one

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Speaker 1: at two fifty two a m. She made the call

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Speaker 1: reporting that her ex boyfriend Joseph ober Hansley was outside

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Speaker 1: her home and wouldn't leave. When officers arrived, Joseph was

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Speaker 1: still outside. He said that his key would not work.

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Speaker 1: When police asked to see ober Hensley's identification, it listed

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Speaker 1: a different address than Tammy Joe Blanton's home. Tammy Joe

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Speaker 1: Blunton explained to police that she had ended her relationship

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Speaker 1: with ober Hensley, had her locks changed again, and that

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Speaker 1: she wanted him to leave. He did, but the next morning,

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Speaker 1: officers came back to Tammy Joe Blanton's house. That's because

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Speaker 1: her friend and colleague, Sabrina Hall, had called police to

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Speaker 1: ask them to do a welfare check on Tammy Joe Blanton.

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Speaker 1: Tammy worked with Sabrina and was supposed to work that day,

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Speaker 1: but when she didn't arrive to the office, Sabrina called

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Speaker 1: her phone and a man answered. The man told Sabrina

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Speaker 1: that he was Tammy's brother and that she was caring

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Speaker 1: for their ill father. Sabrina Hall did not believe the

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Speaker 1: man and made the phone call for police to check

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Speaker 1: on Tammy. At that point, when the officers showed up

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Speaker 1: at Blanton's home and knocked on the door, ober Hansley

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Speaker 1: answered the door. The detectives noticed a cut on ober

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Speaker 1: Hensley's hand and they searched him and at that point

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Speaker 1: they found a brass knuckle knife in his pocket that

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Speaker 1: appeared to have hair and blood on it. At that point,

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Speaker 1: instigators obtained a warrant for the home and inside it's

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Speaker 1: where they found the body of Tammy Joe Blanton in

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Speaker 1: the bathroom, and police at that point described it this

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Speaker 1: is their words, not mine, A big bloody mound of

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Speaker 1: something in the bathtub. That phrase right there tells me

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Speaker 1: that this poor woman's body has just been mutilated terribly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a big indication there, because you know you should

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Speaker 1: not just if you're a young police officer that shows up.

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Speaker 1: And these are what we refer to as beat cops.

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Speaker 1: They're the folks that are out riding around their car,

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Speaker 1: they're patrolling, they're responding to a call. It's always amazed

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Speaker 1: me with these cases that I've worked and I've covered

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Speaker 1: now in the media for a number of years, where

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Speaker 1: you're a beat cop, and you've maybe you've you've gone

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Speaker 1: out to a noise disturbance or police officers. My friends

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Speaker 1: that are police officers, one of the biggest annoyances that

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Speaker 1: they have are responding to alarm on buildings. You hear

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Speaker 1: it all the time on police radios and it turns

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Speaker 1: out to be nothing most of the time. The winds

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Speaker 1: blowing the door. You imagine coming off of a call

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Speaker 1: like that, and you're summoned to this location and you've

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Speaker 1: just been doing something that seems so innocuous in your

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Speaker 1: standard workaday world. And we're not talking about a place

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Speaker 1: that's we're not talking about a place that's huge urban

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Speaker 1: center here. We're just talking about suburban America. And you'll

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Speaker 1: walk in to an environment that is bathed in blood

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Speaker 1: and you're thinking, what planet am I own? All of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, And that's the world that cops live in,

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Speaker 1: where they just kind of have to throw the brakes

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Speaker 1: on and readjust very quickly, and they begin to assist.

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Speaker 1: When they showed up at the door and he wouldn't

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Speaker 1: show the hands, that's that's a big indication for them.

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Speaker 1: They call it putting the bracelets on. Bracelets are going

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Speaker 1: to come out the handcuffs and you're going into custody

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Speaker 1: at that moment time. You're going to be arrested at

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Speaker 1: that moment time because you're compliant with a lawful order.

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Speaker 1: And I gotta tell you thank God that they did,

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Speaker 1: because as was mentioned, he had these I've heard people

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Speaker 1: refer to them as a knucklebuster knife, which is it's

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Speaker 1: kind of a if you think of what a brass

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Speaker 1: knuckle looks like, it's something you can have your fingers

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Speaker 1: going through, and there's a contact edge where you can

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Speaker 1: strike an individual with his metallic surface. But in addition

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Speaker 1: to the brass knuckle, you've actually got a sharp edged

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Speaker 1: instrument on the other end of it. And this is

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Speaker 1: a highly lethal weapon. He could have at that moment

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Speaker 1: time with these police officers. He could have attacked them.

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Speaker 1: He could have ripped them to shreds or done great

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Speaker 1: bodily harm and thank God that they weren't hurt. I

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Speaker 1: can't say the same Tammy Joe Blant. As investigators are

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Speaker 1: starting to look at what had happened to Tammy Joe Blanton,

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Speaker 1: they discovered that she had been stabbed repeatedly. So is

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Speaker 1: this her cause of death? Absolutely? Her cause of death

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Speaker 1: is sharp force injuries. That is this knife being driven

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Speaker 1: into her body. Not just once or twice three times.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking multiple times. She had multiple stab wounds all

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Speaker 1: over her body. And it is absolutely horrific. And I've

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Speaker 1: said this over and over again and I'll never tire

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Speaker 1: of saying it, But out of all of the causes

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Speaker 1: of death that are out there, sharp force injuries, when

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Speaker 1: you take that in a homicide, in the context of

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Speaker 1: a homicide, is the manner of death. It is the

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Speaker 1: most personal. It is the most personal thing that can happen,

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Speaker 1: with maybe the exception of strangulation, but there's there's a

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Speaker 1: level of violence that goes in to sharp force injury,

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Speaker 1: particularly stab wounds, because you're it's an action where and

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Speaker 1: particularly in this case, and you begin to think about

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Speaker 1: the how this weapon is set up where your fingers

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Speaker 1: are threaded through this thing and you've got this blade,

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Speaker 1: so you've created a fist where you're you're gripping this

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Speaker 1: blade with this brass knuckle handle and you're driving it

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Speaker 1: over and over and over. There's a tremendous amount of force.

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Speaker 1: Here's here's the key though. With stab wounds, it's not

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Speaker 1: like you're one and done in many of these cases,

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Speaker 1: this is a frenzied event. You're withdrawing the blade and

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Speaker 1: then you make a conscious effort. That's important to emphasize

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Speaker 1: you you're making a conscious effort to now reinsert this

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Speaker 1: weapon into someone's body. It's not like you strike them

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Speaker 1: a single time on the head with a club or

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Speaker 1: something like that. It's not like you shoot them a

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Speaker 1: single time. This is withdrawing an edged weapon and then

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Speaker 1: reinserting it, withdrawing, reinserting it, and there's a pain response.

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Speaker 1: If you're face to face with this victim, that is

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Speaker 1: should should potentially register with you. You're witnessing their life

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Speaker 1: just kind of face eating away before you. Maybe they're gasping,

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Speaker 1: maybe they're fighting you, because in a normal primal response,

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Speaker 1: you're going to try to fend this person off. But

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Speaker 1: yet that knife is being plunged into this individual every

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Speaker 1: single time, and lots of times with sharp force injury victims.

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Speaker 1: We examine the palms of their hands very carefully, and

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Speaker 1: this is absolutely horrific, but it's reality. The individual, in

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Speaker 1: order to fend off the subject, will grasp the blade

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Speaker 1: and the perpetrator again will withdraw the blade from the

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Speaker 1: individual's hand. And you'll have these large slice marks that

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Speaker 1: you can appreciate on the palms of the hands in

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Speaker 1: between the fingers. Particularly, one of the biggest area is

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Speaker 1: the webbing between the thumb and the index finger. You'll

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Speaker 1: see that slice down to the bone many times, and

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Speaker 1: that's the individual trying in at that primal level to

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Speaker 1: try to fend off this attacker. I've seen blades actually

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Speaker 1: pass through hands, all the way through hands and then

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Speaker 1: into bodies because the person is putting their hand up

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Speaker 1: in response. But this amount of force, and it's I

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Speaker 1: think that it's interesting in this case because of the

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Speaker 1: structure of this weapon that he could generate a lot

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Speaker 1: of force. As he's driving this into her body, he's

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Speaker 1: in a dominant position over her. My assumption is that

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Speaker 1: she would be essentially in a supine position, which means

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Speaker 1: face up. He's face to face with her. He's on

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Speaker 1: top of her all right, and straddling her perhaps, and

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Speaker 1: he's plunging this knife over and over and over again.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing she can do to escape this event. But

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Speaker 1: from a forensic standpoint, every time this occurs, this event

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Speaker 1: there's a transference of evidence. You have her bodily fluids,

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Speaker 1: the blood transferring onto him, perhaps her hair we talked

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Speaker 1: about there was actually hair that was found on the

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Speaker 1: surface of the knife. And many times the perpetrators will

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Speaker 1: in fact cut themselves. This is not like shooting where

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Speaker 1: you're at a distance, you pop off around at somebody.

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Speaker 1: Now you're up close and personal, and as they're fighting,

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Speaker 1: you're fighting, and many times the perpetrator will cut themselves

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Speaker 1: and so that blood leaches onto the body of the

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Speaker 1: victim and also all of the surrounding area, on the floor,

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Speaker 1: the surfaces of any kind of furniture that happens to

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Speaker 1: be there, seek a toilet or a sofa, even you'll

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Speaker 1: find what's referred to, and this is an important word,

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Speaker 1: a co mingling. A co mingling, a blood that occurs.

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Speaker 1: And so we have to kind of separate that out.

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Speaker 1: And you begin to look at that, and suddenly a

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Speaker 1: narrative develops scientifically, at least because we're not there to

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Speaker 1: witness this event, but we can understand this narrative as

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Speaker 1: it's being played out of what the dynamics of this

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Speaker 1: event were. The dynamics I want to talk about that

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Speaker 1: a little bit, Joe, because I don't understand and you

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Speaker 1: and I have talked about blood force sharp force injuries often,

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Speaker 1: but when you are stabbed like this so many times,

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Speaker 1: is it a process of you bleeding out over time

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Speaker 1: or did they actually hit the heart in your heart

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Speaker 1: stopped immediately? I mean, is there ever a way to

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Speaker 1: know which incident actually caused the death? Knoll? I absolutely

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Speaker 1: love this question, and this is why when and I

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Speaker 1: urge anybody that's truly interested in medical legal death investigation,

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Speaker 1: find an autopsy report that involves multiple stab wounds. And

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Speaker 1: one of the little caveats that is always contained in

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Speaker 1: these autopsy reports is that the pathologists will say something like,

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Speaker 1: even though these injuries are enumerated, you know one through

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Speaker 1: I don't know twenty six or one through one hundred,

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Speaker 1: this does not imply sequencing. There's no way to tell.

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Speaker 1: The only dividing line that you have and these kind

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Speaker 1: of cases is is there hemorrhage associated with this injury

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Speaker 1: or is there no hemorrhage? And again that's our big

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Speaker 1: demarcation there between life and death. That means that if

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Speaker 1: there is hemorrhage present, we know that the individual was

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Speaker 1: insulted prior to death. That means their heart is still

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Speaker 1: beating and you've got blood coursing through the body, and

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Speaker 1: you have this kind of hemorrhage that's into the soft tissues.

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Speaker 1: And then we look at it from the other perspective,

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Speaker 1: where we have injuries where there is no hemorrhage whatsoever,

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Speaker 1: And so you have to divide way. Wait, so how

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Speaker 1: can that be? How can you have an injury and

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Speaker 1: there not be a hemorrhage. Well, you can have a

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Speaker 1: post mortem injury. You can have post mortem injury. You

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Speaker 1: made a good point just a second ago when you

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Speaker 1: talk about you plunge the knife into the heart and suddenly,

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Speaker 1: because there's mechanical damage to the heart at that point

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Speaker 1: in time, the individual is going to go into arrest.

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Speaker 1: They're going to die, all right, and it will be

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Speaker 1: immediate in that case anything that might follow after that.

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Speaker 1: And I know some people will argue with this because

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Speaker 1: there's this kind of agonal thing that goes on. But

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Speaker 1: if the heart mechanically is damaged to the point where

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Speaker 1: the individual goes into rest, the logical assumption is is

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Speaker 1: that there's no longer blood coursing through the body. So

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Speaker 1: you're not necessarily going to present with hemorrhage in any

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Speaker 1: kind of post mortem wound. Because you're not going to

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Speaker 1: have no longer the physical facility to hemorrhage into that

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Speaker 1: specific area. And that's very important because it goes into

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Speaker 1: when you begin to look at this from the perspective

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Speaker 1: of not just the forensics, but also kind of the

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Speaker 1: mindset of the individual that was perpetrating this crime, because

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Speaker 1: these are going to be questions that you're going to

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Speaker 1: be asked on the stand if you're forensic pathologist or

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Speaker 1: forensic specialist, they're going to ask you, well, you know,

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Speaker 1: in your opinion, how many of these injuries were anti

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Speaker 1: mortem before death and how many were after Well, if

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Speaker 1: you've got an anti mortem, which means before death, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about bringing about the death. But then from a

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Speaker 1: lawyer's perspective, if they can demonstrate a prosecratorial perspective, they

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Speaker 1: can demonstrate that there's all these post mortem injuries. Suddenly,

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Speaker 1: suddenly the accused becomes such a bigger monster at that

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Speaker 1: point in time, because now you weren't you weren't satisfied

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Speaker 1: with killing or ending this person's life. You went to ribalm,

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Speaker 1: to shreds and destroy what was left of their body.

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Speaker 1: When you walk onto a scene involving sharp force injuries,

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Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, out of all the cases I've worked,

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Speaker 1: when you're in this environment where there's so much blood,

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Speaker 1: it's very perplexing. It's a daunting task because you're sitting

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Speaker 1: there and you're saying, oh, my Lord, where do I begin?

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Speaker 1: Where do I begin? Because everything is literally and I

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Speaker 1: mean this in the literal sense. Our friends in Great

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Speaker 1: Britain use this term all the time, but in the

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Speaker 1: literal sense, everything is a bloody mess. I don't even

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Speaker 1: think that begins to cover what went on in this case. Joe,

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Speaker 1: this is going to be so disturbing, and I want

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Speaker 1: to warn people now what we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: is truly disturbing. If you have children in the room.

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine anybody would listen to us with children

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Speaker 1: in the room, But if there are children in the room,

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Speaker 1: you might want to put on some headphones because this

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Speaker 1: is truly disturbing. Tammy, Joe Blanton's body had been heavily mutilated.

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Speaker 1: Not only was she stabbed in the head, chest, and neck,

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Speaker 1: the front portion of her skull had been opened, a

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Speaker 1: portion of her brain, lung, and most of her heart

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Speaker 1: had been damaged or removed. Joe, I really don't even

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Speaker 1: know what kind of a question to ask you about this,

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Speaker 1: because how can somebody do that? And what kind of

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Speaker 1: force would it take to crack open somebody's skull to

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Speaker 1: remove the brain. It's important that you and it's easy.

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Speaker 1: This is easier said than done. Trust me, we're not

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Speaker 1: the people that go out on these scenes. We're not

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Speaker 1: super people, all right, We're not We're not immune to

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Speaker 1: the things that we're seeing, all right, because that's at

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Speaker 1: that point in time. You've checked your humanity out a

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Speaker 1: long time ago. We're still impacted by this. But you

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Speaker 1: have to be focused on the scientifically and to try

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Speaker 1: to understand what you're seeing relative to the findings, the

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Speaker 1: physical findings that's seen. Okay, you can't just check out

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Speaker 1: and say I'm not going to do this. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have to do this. You have to to understand

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Speaker 1: what's going on. You mentioned that, yes, the frontal portion

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Speaker 1: of her or skull is missing at this point in

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Speaker 1: time when they observed her, but also we have to

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Speaker 1: explain that her chest was open to the point where

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Speaker 1: the majority of her heart was absent, as well as

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Speaker 1: a segment of her long I believe it's probably the

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Speaker 1: left lung probably the upper lobe of the left lung,

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Speaker 1: because it's immediately adjacent to the heart, and so you

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Speaker 1: have a large gaping area there. Because it's not easy

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Speaker 1: to get to. I mean, it's you might think that

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Speaker 1: it would be. You see movies and all that stuff.

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Speaker 1: Forget all that nonsense. It's not an easy undertaking. This

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Speaker 1: takes work. It takes a determined person in order to

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Speaker 1: do this, particularly if you're not equipped with the tools, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, that you know you might find in surgery

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Speaker 1: or in the autopsy suite. Remember when when they're doing surgery,

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Speaker 1: they actually have an instrument that's referred to as a

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Speaker 1: rib spreader, all right, And these things have been developed

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Speaker 1: for this particular type of event as it applies to

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Speaker 1: therapeutic surgeries that take place. Not in this sense, though,

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Speaker 1: this is this is a mutilation. I'm hesitant to refer

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Speaker 1: to this as a dismemberment, where the body is taken

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Speaker 1: apart in segments. Necessarily, this is an attempt to remove

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Speaker 1: specific parts of the body, all right. And when I

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Speaker 1: think of dismemberment, I think about essentially taking apart at

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Speaker 1: the joints, the risks, the elbows, shoulders, those sorts of

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Speaker 1: that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: a mutilation at this point. We're talking about a mutilation.

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Speaker 1: And to your point, it's you would have to sit

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Speaker 1: there and think, well, what in the world am I

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Speaker 1: looking at here? Because you know, with a dismemberment, for instance,

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Speaker 1: you're thinking, if there is obviously i'm side that's been committed, well,

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Speaker 1: why would somebody dismember somebody? Most of the time, people

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Speaker 1: dismember bodies in order to make it easier to transport

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Speaker 1: individual pieces so that they can dispose of them in

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Speaker 1: a manner in which they put as much distance between

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Speaker 1: themselves and the bodies they can make it easily transportable

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Speaker 1: those sorts of things. You've entered into a different sphere

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Speaker 1: here when you begin to think about mutilation and you're

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Speaker 1: facilitating this to get someone's skull open. And when I

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Speaker 1: use the term daunting task, it's something that I worked

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Speaker 1: for many years as an autopsy assistant path assistant and

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Speaker 1: participated in roughly seven thousand autopsies during that period of time.

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Speaker 1: And if you do a complete autopsy, you open them

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Speaker 1: would be very frankly, you open the skull. That's what

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Speaker 1: you do. But we have a very specific instrument that

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Speaker 1: we use for that. It's called a bone saw, and

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Speaker 1: it's an agitating saw. So you hear in the movies

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Speaker 1: they use this high pitched buzzing sound that'll simulate one

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Speaker 1: of these saws being used on bodies and that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing, and it agitates. It's if people have ever

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Speaker 1: had a cast removed. Okay, if you've ever had a

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Speaker 1: cast remove, you had a broken bone, that's very very

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Speaker 1: similar to this agitating saw. So just think about that

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Speaker 1: for a second. That's not what was utilized here. Got

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Speaker 1: kind of a reveal here is the fact that they

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Speaker 1: found a jigsaw a jigsaw president scene, and this is

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Speaker 1: not something with a big, robust blade, and it's something

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Speaker 1: that's normally placed on a flat surface. You think about

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Speaker 1: the shape of the skull, and the shape of the

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Speaker 1: skull is around it. So if you're using a jigsaw,

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Speaker 1: say to cut a piece of plywood or something like that,

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Speaker 1: you place it on the edge and you move forward

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Speaker 1: with it and you can cut out that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: But you've got that under control to utilize a jigsaw

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Speaker 1: in this particular case in order to open save this

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Speaker 1: frontal bone, which is arguably the most robust bone in

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Speaker 1: the human skull. You just tap your forehead that sort

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Speaker 1: of area, very thick, very hard to get an edge

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Speaker 1: on it. You've got this this saw blade that is

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Speaker 1: going up and down kind of like the only thing

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Speaker 1: I can really equate it to is almost like the

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Speaker 1: needle on a sewing machine that's going up and down

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Speaker 1: like that, as opposed to the agitating saw that you

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Speaker 1: used to remove a cast or a bone. Saw it

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Speaker 1: kind of goes backwards and forth like that, and then

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Speaker 1: the blades are round it. It's easy to use. In

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Speaker 1: this case, this would have taken so much time. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it would have taken a protracted period of time. And

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Speaker 1: again there's a certain amount of soft tissue dissection that

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Speaker 1: would probably have to go on. That means you have

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Speaker 1: to remove most of the time any kind of soft

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Speaker 1: tissue that would impede that blade's ability to cut through

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Speaker 1: that bony surface. And then once you have at least

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Speaker 1: made a single entrance into that bony surface, how how

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Speaker 1: exactly what direction are you going to go? Now? Are

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Speaker 1: you going to take the tip of this You know,

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Speaker 1: remember it's acting like a sewing machine, going up and down,

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Speaker 1: up and down, up and down, do you insert it

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Speaker 1: into this little defect that you've created and then kind

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Speaker 1: of buzz it out along that area. If this is

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Speaker 1: something that you have no experience within less face it,

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine there's a lot of people out there

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Speaker 1: that have experience with mutilation of human remains. What do

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Speaker 1: you do as you're sitting there in this world that

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Speaker 1: you have painted with another human being's blood and you're

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Speaker 1: holding this individual's head in your lap as you're doing this,

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Speaker 1: do you have it braced in some way? When she

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Speaker 1: was found, she was actually found in the tub covered

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Speaker 1: with what turned up to be a tarp, and so

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Speaker 1: the workings of the scene are going to be very

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Speaker 1: complicated from a forensic standpoint to understand what was physically

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Speaker 1: done there, what the position of her body was at

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Speaker 1: that particular time, what the position of the perpetrator's body

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Speaker 1: was relative to her body, and the rest of the environment.

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Speaker 1: You're going to have a lot of transfer of blood

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Speaker 1: evidence and trace evidence and everything else. It would be

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Speaker 1: an absolute nightmare to figure yourself in my wild streams.

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Speaker 1: I can't even begin to kind of understand how you

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Speaker 1: prepare yourself if you're the perpetrator of a of the mutilation.

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Speaker 1: How do you prepare yourself? But you know, how do

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Speaker 1: you determine what tools to show up with? How do

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Speaker 1: you how do you figure out the logistics of it?

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Speaker 1: Is this just something that is done at the spur

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Speaker 1: of the moment and you grab whatever is handy or

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Speaker 1: is this something that you're pre prepared to do at

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Speaker 1: that given time. I don't know. It boggles the mind,

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Speaker 1: it does, and I think the jury and the judge

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Speaker 1: when Oberhansley was charged in Dammy job Letton's death, it

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Speaker 1: was something they truly had to consider because ober Hansley

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Speaker 1: claimed to be incompetent, and in fact was deemed incompetent

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Speaker 1: to stand trial. So there were claims that ober Hansley

396
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Speaker 1: was schizophrenic. He had in the past, Joe, you can

397
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Speaker 1: kind of wig in on this here in just a second.

398
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Speaker 1: He had been accused and convicted of shooting his high

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Speaker 1: school girlfriend. She died. He had also shot his mother,

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Speaker 1: so he had been convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to

401
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Speaker 1: twelve years where he had killed the mother of his child.

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Speaker 1: He said he was in a meth rage. He also

403
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Speaker 1: shot his mother and ultimately, though ober Hansley was deemed

404
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Speaker 1: sane at the time of Tammy Joe Blnton's murder. But

405
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Speaker 1: here's the truly horrendous As if we have not talked

406
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Speaker 1: about a terrible crime here, Joe Joseph Oberhandsley was a cannibal.

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Speaker 1: He ate Jimmy Joe Blanton's brain, parts of her heart,

408
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Speaker 1: and parts of her lung. I'm really truly at a

409
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Speaker 1: loss for words. Joe, Yeah, talk about plumbing the depths

410
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Speaker 1: of depravity. You begin to think about this and you say, well,

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Speaker 1: you've got a mutilation. Now we've got an individual that

412
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Speaker 1: has taken organs from somebody that they were involved in

413
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Speaker 1: a relationship with. And not only had he eviscerated her,

414
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Speaker 1: which means removal of organs, but he had prepared to organs.

415
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Speaker 1: He essentially prepared them on stove and then he ingested again.

416
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Speaker 1: I think our default position here has to be the

417
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Speaker 1: science behind this, because I don't know that it is

418
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Speaker 1: even possible to explain the rationale for having done this.

419
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Speaker 1: But what we do know is that these elements were

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Speaker 1: in fact consumed. And there's one part of this is

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Speaker 1: kind of kind of fascinating to me. I guess as

422
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: fascinating as it could possibly be, was the fact that

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Speaker 1: he had claimed at one point in time that the

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Speaker 1: removal of the brain essentially was his attempt to find

425
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Speaker 1: her third eye. And this is a very metaphysical thing,

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Speaker 1: and it's not something I fully grasp, but the at

427
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: a base level, the third eye is this metaphysical presence

428
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,800
Speaker 1: that's within the brain and can see things on a

429
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: different plane in these sorts of things. I do know

430
00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: that some of the items that were found at the

431
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 1: scene included tongs and they were covered with blood, and

432
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: I think these are tongs very similar to maybe salad

433
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: tongs or tongs that you would use when preparing a

434
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 1: meal on a grill, this sort of thing. And if

435
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: you have to understand with human anatomy, if you're opening

436
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: up just one portion of the skull and removing that

437
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: and then going into that, there is an attempt on

438
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 1: the part of the person because you can't remove it

439
00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 1: the way we do at autopsy. There is a process

440
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: where you would literally have to dig out the brain

441
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 1: or scoop out the brain in order to make this happen,

442
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: and then purpose to prepare the brain so that you

443
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: can ingest it. One point that we need to go

444
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 1: back to here is that at a very early age,

445
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:34,479
Speaker 1: when he was still in Utah, he had demonstrated a

446
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: very violent behavior. If you're to the point where you

447
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 1: can shoot the mother of your own child and she's

448
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 1: just a teenager, and she's just a teenager, he cold

449
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: bloodedly shot her and then shot his own mother. And

450
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,400
Speaker 1: then I guess when he began to assess that at

451
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: that particular time, decided that he was going to take

452
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: his own life and shot himself as well. So that

453
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: gives you an indication as to mindset, you know, because

454
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: people I hate the word why it's don't I don't

455
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: particularly like it because it's not very scientific most of

456
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 1: the time, because you know, why is there are many

457
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 1: degrees to why. We'll just say that it's hard to

458
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: quantify why. But you sit there and you begin to think,

459
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: well why. I think that we have to fall back

460
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,159
Speaker 1: to how how was this done? Or how could he

461
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,680
Speaker 1: have done this? And we have indications that he was

462
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: very violent in the past, But yet here he is,

463
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: he's out, he's out of incarceration, he's made his way

464
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: to Indiana, and when his trial was going on, and

465
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: when he was initially charged, there was some indication that

466
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: he was perfectly lucid. He had attempted to have a

467
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: spontaneous news conference at one point in time as he's

468
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 1: shackled walking around. I can only think, can you image

469
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: being the deputies that are having to escort this guy around?

470
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: You think he's in shackles there and what he's perpetrated,

471
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: and you're conveying this guy from one area to another.

472
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: And again it goes back to the people that initially

473
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 1: showed up at the scene of Tammy Joe's homicide. I

474
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: think that that would transfer over to these individuals too

475
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: that are having to deal with him on a regular basis.

476
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: And he seemed perfectly lucid. He's saying that he is

477
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 1: not in fact in saying that there are other people

478
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: to blame. He even stated that he gave them an

479
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: alternative reason for what happened, that he was knocked out

480
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: at the scene, and there were two people that entered

481
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: her home and did this horrible deed to Tammy Joe,

482
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: but yet they let him survive. Okay, so you're going

483
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: to have to teach me here, Joe, because I'm hearing

484
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: everything that you're saying, but I can't get past the

485
00:29:54,880 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: part of the word eat Okay, he ate her organs,

486
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 1: So hannibalism? Why I get Well, I can't ask you

487
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 1: why because you don't like the word. Why tell me

488
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 1: about cannibalism? Is it just you? People who do this

489
00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: have a desire to taste the flesh? Do they have

490
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 1: a desire to know? I understand in some other cultures

491
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: in ancient times, the idea was if you killed someone

492
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,400
Speaker 1: a warrior and you ate their organs, that it gave

493
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: you power. I mean, what is it with cannibalism? Yeah,

494
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 1: it's from an anthropological standpoint, when these people are studied,

495
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: you have what's referred to as kind of a ritualized cannibalism,

496
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: like you had mentioned, you know where you're gonna eat

497
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 1: a portion of your enemy's body and gives you strength

498
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 1: and all the sorts of things. I think, if I'm

499
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: not mistaken, I think that there's one tribe that still

500
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: participates in cannibalism in New Guinea, a very isolated group

501
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: of people. And again it's a form of ritualized ingestion

502
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: of human remains. You have a separate section that is survival.

503
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:11,479
Speaker 1: You have people that are depended upon another human being's

504
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: body as sustenance. We think back to the dinner party.

505
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: That's many people for them, that's their their default position.

506
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: Back in the eighteen hundreds, when they were trying to

507
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: get across the pass and they were frozen in and

508
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 1: they had they had nothing to nourish themselves with. There's

509
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: a number of people that have been at sea. I

510
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,080
Speaker 1: think that had to resort to cannibalism. And of course

511
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 1: famously we've we've got the athletic team that crash in

512
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: the andies back in the seventies. The book was written

513
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: about them alive, I think. But that's where survival All right,

514
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: what's the really curious group? Here are these homicidal cannibals,

515
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 1: And how do you study this? Because yeah, there are

516
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: there are stories of this. There are certainly cases, you know,

517
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: I guess famously the most obvious one is Damer that

518
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: comes to mind, you know, in the last forty years,

519
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: and he again he was the reason he made the

520
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 1: news like he did, I think is because it was

521
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: it was so shocking, so and the public couldn't get

522
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: enough of it. They were watching this day after day.

523
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: I had friends that were involved in the investigation up

524
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: in Milwaukee in in this case, and yeah, it was

525
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: absolutely horrific, and but he was very systematic about this.

526
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 1: He would choose victims and this sort of thing, and

527
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of psychopathology that went on with him.

528
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: But still he was deemed sane. He was deemed sane.

529
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 1: He wasn't he wasn't a raving maniac. He was very

530
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: much in control. It's very difficult, I think for us

531
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: to get past this as well, it should be past

532
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: this idea of consumption of another person's body. Again, back

533
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: to the why question. I don't know that we will

534
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 1: ever have an answer to why. That is purely definitive.

535
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,959
Speaker 1: I would think at least there's some kind of power

536
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 1: thing that's going on. Not only am I going to

537
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 1: stab you to death? Not only am I going to

538
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 1: sexually assault you? And again that's another piece to Tammy

539
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: Joe's case. There's also evidence that he sexually assaulted her.

540
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: And again we don't know if that was anti mortem

541
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: before death or if it was post mortem where you

542
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: have a necrophiliac event that's going on, and again that's

543
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: something that Dahmer did. He was a necrophile, which means

544
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: he had a sexual orientation toward the dead. We don't

545
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 1: know what the status was. With that again, power control

546
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: and then total dominance. Maybe in these individuals' minds is

547
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 1: the consumption of the remains. They've dominated this individual in

548
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 1: every other way possible, and I'll show you. I'll even

549
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: bring it down to the point where I'm going to

550
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: ingest your mortal remains. I don't know that there's any

551
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: any kind of peace anybody could have over this, but

552
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 1: just know this, Joseph Overhandsley was convicted. He was convicted,

553
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 1: and he's been sentenced to life in prison without the

554
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: possibility of parole. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

555
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: Bodybacks