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Speaker 2: I miss a green for example, I'm already upset when
Speaker 2: I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 2: And when I find my ball.
Speaker 1: In Frida eggad Frida Egg.
Speaker 2: Frida Egg, Frida Egg Bride egg, Lie, I'm about ready
Speaker 2: to run off of the hump.
Speaker 1: Today's episode of the Frida Egg Podcast is with the
Speaker 1: legendary golf course architect Bill Coore. So this is the
Speaker 1: third time that I've talked to Bill, and uh we
Speaker 1: we caught up on a recent trip to Scottsdale and
Speaker 1: just kind of talked with him. This is the first
Speaker 1: time we've talked post COVID. So, you know, the industry
Speaker 1: is buzzing, lots of things going on, and uh never
Speaker 1: a shortage of stuff to discuss with mister Krer. So
Speaker 1: thank you to Bill for taking the time, and now
Speaker 1: here is our interview.
Speaker 2: It's so good to see you again.
Speaker 1: And it's been a while before COVID. It was like
Speaker 1: a month or months before COVID.
Speaker 2: Where was the talking?
Speaker 1: Yeah, do you listen to music?
Speaker 2: Do I listen to music? Yes?
Speaker 1: What kind of music do you listen to?
Speaker 2: Sounds like one of those questions. I'm just curious.
Speaker 1: I never I never asked you. I don't know, you know,
Speaker 1: I figured, you know.
Speaker 2: It's interesting. I listened to quite a broad spectrum. I
Speaker 2: like everything from classical music to country western. So I
Speaker 2: guess if I if I if you had to say,
Speaker 2: what do you listen to more often? It would be
Speaker 2: so like people my age, oldies, rock and roll type stuff.
Speaker 2: But but no, I if I'm driving in a rental
Speaker 2: car or something quite often listening to classical music.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of young shapers or younger, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think a lot of them are young. Now, Yeah,
Speaker 1: so a lot of shapers listen to music when they shape.
Speaker 1: Do you ever listen to music when you're doing work?
Speaker 2: On?
Speaker 1: Of course?
Speaker 2: No? No, and by work you mean just walking out around.
Speaker 1: The course walking or if you're on the sand pro.
Speaker 2: Or no, I don't any I may. I may think
Speaker 2: of a song sometimes, like like I guess almost all
Speaker 2: of us. Sometimes you think of a song, then you
Speaker 2: can't get it out of your head, the lyrics or something,
Speaker 2: and then and then it just keep repeating over and over.
Speaker 2: But it's not like I try to listen to music
Speaker 2: for a calming effect or now if I'm driving, yes,
Speaker 2: but not out walking on the site.
Speaker 1: Now, what's your process for like building a green? How
Speaker 1: does that work? How do you guys build a green?
Speaker 1: You know and come up with green concepts?
Speaker 2: Well, we start with concepts based on what we've seen
Speaker 2: on the ground. I mean, green's no different than entire
Speaker 2: golf holes. If there's some natural feature, and by that
Speaker 2: it's generally a land form, a contour of some sort
Speaker 2: that just conjures up a mental image of how a
Speaker 2: green might fit at that site. And then obviously with
Speaker 2: the awareness of what type of shots going to be
Speaker 2: played into that green, how long the hole is, what
Speaker 2: the angle is, all that sort of thing. But for us,
Speaker 2: it's very often just seeing what the contours are on
Speaker 2: the ground, not just for the entire hole, but even
Speaker 2: at the green areas. And sometimes you just see areas that, well,
Speaker 2: this is a green, this is a gift that's already here.
Speaker 2: You know, we have to do almost nothing to this
Speaker 2: or very little. And obviously there's the reverse of that.
Speaker 2: There are times that you have to link holes together
Speaker 2: and you have to build a green in an area
Speaker 2: that you know to help the sequence of the holes
Speaker 2: or the linkage of the holes, and there's nothing to
Speaker 2: work with at that green site. So then then you
Speaker 2: you create a concept from you know mentally that you
Speaker 2: think fits into the again, the concept of the entire course.
Speaker 2: But now if we can find if we can find
Speaker 2: natural sites that just feel like interesting green contours. We're
Speaker 2: going to gravitate toward those whenever possible.
Speaker 1: When you have to create what's kind of you know,
Speaker 1: is it just really site specific with like what you're
Speaker 1: having to do, whether it be get out of a
Speaker 1: tough corner or you know, a severe piece of land,
Speaker 1: or if it's you know, kind of a connector hole,
Speaker 1: say over the least interesting where you have to spruce
Speaker 1: something up. How do you Is it all just kind
Speaker 1: of specific on what the you know, situation is and
Speaker 1: the holes sequenced around it.
Speaker 2: I think for the most part it's correct. Yes, I
Speaker 2: mean you obviously we start out studying the sites, and
Speaker 2: we've talked about this, you know, at length in the past.
Speaker 2: But we start studying the sites trying to get a
Speaker 2: sense of how we would travel around through each individual
Speaker 2: site and see the interesting features natural features of that
Speaker 2: site and incorporate them in some manner into the golf course.
Speaker 2: But then we proceed into breaking sort of that circulation
Speaker 2: pattern down into individual into a routing for a golf course,
Speaker 2: into individual holes that of course go to combine together
Speaker 2: to create the golf course, whether it's nine holes or
Speaker 2: eighteen or in the case of some part three courses
Speaker 2: thirteen or seventeen or different numbers. But so, you know,
Speaker 2: as we've talked about before, we get the circulation pattern
Speaker 2: first to showcase the site, and we start to break
Speaker 2: it and then into the individual holes based on the
Speaker 2: landforms and how we might play golf on that site.
Speaker 2: And then from there, once we have a routing that
Speaker 2: we're quite comfortable with, we start saying what type of
Speaker 2: golf concepts would we like to see on this site
Speaker 2: that would be you know, very interesting in terms of
Speaker 2: playing golf, but would be complementary to the site and
Speaker 2: help showcase the interesting aspects of the site while hopefully
Speaker 2: providing entertaining and you know, again to use the word
Speaker 2: interesting so often, but interesting golf.
Speaker 1: In the process, you got to get those synonyms, synonyms
Speaker 1: like you know, compelling. I've run into this all the
Speaker 1: time whenever I write It's like I want to say
Speaker 1: interesting so many times I.
Speaker 2: Know I abandoned. I both get we we so over
Speaker 2: overuse that combination of fun and interesting. You know, we've
Speaker 2: done it for decades now, I guess so.
Speaker 1: Uh but yeah, with uh your site, I think like
Speaker 1: you obviously have worked at a lot of spectacular sites
Speaker 1: that people can easily recognize it as spectacular Sandhills Friars
Speaker 1: had you know, the new course at Tari. What's the
Speaker 1: site that people might not know was spectacular that actually
Speaker 1: when you guys got to see that might be more
Speaker 1: subtly spectacular. What would you say, is the site that
Speaker 1: you've worked at that was really underratedly beautiful and great
Speaker 1: for golf that you never hear listed as like your
Speaker 1: spectacular site.
Speaker 2: G Andy. You know this site that was so good
Speaker 2: for golf, and you don't hear a great deal about it,
Speaker 2: although it does show up in those lists of you know,
Speaker 2: considered special courses. A bit old Sandwich.
Speaker 1: I kind of thought. I was thinking that because whenever
Speaker 1: I see a picture of that golf course, I'm just like, God,
Speaker 1: that looks just so beautiful.
Speaker 2: Well, it's so it so reflects the character of New England,
Speaker 2: and particularly that the greater Boston area, in the Cape
Speaker 2: Cod area there. The it's it's got everything from sand
Speaker 2: to some giant boulders, glacial boulders and uh it's but
Speaker 2: the contours for the most part are reasonably subtle. It's
Speaker 2: not flat by any means, but it's just the combination
Speaker 2: of the the landforms, the vegetation, and then the part
Speaker 2: of it has to be too. Just the area and
Speaker 2: the and the heritage of golf in that area. It
Speaker 2: all goes together to make it, uh, pretty pretty special place.
Speaker 2: I was there not too long ago and hadn't been
Speaker 2: there in several years, and I just walked around and felt,
Speaker 2: you know, we try to be really understated about stuff
Speaker 2: we do, but this is pretty good. And uh in
Speaker 2: one of the amazing things any because I know you've
Speaker 2: done interviews and and uh, you know, focused pieces about
Speaker 2: golf course superintendents, you know, the man and the women
Speaker 2: who take care of these courses. And from Ben's in
Speaker 2: my perspective, the design side, there's nothing can be better
Speaker 2: than to try than to create a golf course with
Speaker 2: an intended you know, a certain design intent and then
Speaker 2: see that golf course get better and better and better
Speaker 2: through the years and progress in a very positive way.
Speaker 2: To attain that design intent. And what John McCormick, who
Speaker 2: actually just retired at the end of this year but
Speaker 2: has done for all these years at Old Sandwich since
Speaker 2: we built it with he knew exactly what we were
Speaker 2: trying to do with the golf course. He knew even
Speaker 2: though it wasn't in its earliest years. He knew that
Speaker 2: concept was was there and was close, but wasn't totally fulfilled,
Speaker 2: and he made it happen. He's it's just gotten better
Speaker 2: each time you go. And there's just simply nothing from
Speaker 2: our perspective that could be more rewarding than that to
Speaker 2: just go. You do something you think has potential, and
Speaker 2: you watch other people then make that potential realized.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's a neat thing when you see when
Speaker 1: you go back somewhere after a couple of years and
Speaker 1: you see it significantly you know, it plays significantly better
Speaker 1: because of small little tweaks. It's not huge things. And
Speaker 1: I think something that's you know, odd with what you
Speaker 1: guys do. You know, a house architect and builder, they
Speaker 1: hand over a pristine product. In a way, you guys
Speaker 1: hand over a product that's that's young and almost fragile
Speaker 1: because it's you know, you you grow it in and
Speaker 1: it's gonna mature and be playing its best maybe two
Speaker 1: years after you guys are done with your work, so
Speaker 1: you kind of hand it over to to owners and
Speaker 1: superintendents and from there the potential has kind of realized.
Speaker 1: A couple of years after where you know and potentially
Speaker 1: you know a decade later it keeps getting better. But
Speaker 1: you don't hand over a product like a car or
Speaker 1: house where the best you know it's going to be
Speaker 1: is the day you move in or the day you
Speaker 1: turn on the ignition if it's a brand new car.
Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely correct. Years ago, it used to be thought
Speaker 2: of that when you opened the golf course, it would
Speaker 2: be about five years until you felt like it had
Speaker 2: it had gotten to the point you hoped it would be.
Speaker 2: Then in particularly with the influx of well financing and development,
Speaker 2: and with the the advance of equipment and all these things,
Speaker 2: we went through a period there where was almost instant gratification.
Speaker 2: With enough money, we can make these golf courses almost
Speaker 2: perfect on day one. We can side the golf course,
Speaker 2: we can transplant trees, you can do this, you can
Speaker 2: do that. It was it was almost to the point
Speaker 2: that you didn't you didn't think of it in terms
Speaker 2: of that longer term process to get to attain the goals.
Speaker 2: It was again instant gratification. We want it now, and
Speaker 2: you know that's that's okay in its way, and that
Speaker 2: was done for quite a long time, particularly big very
Speaker 2: well funded developments, but we kind of still prefer the
Speaker 2: old fashioned way. As you described, let it evolve. The
Speaker 2: design evolves when you're when you're under the process of
Speaker 2: creating the golf course, but then let the maturity evolve too,
Speaker 2: as long as it's hopefully within the framework of the
Speaker 2: direction you wanted to go and again the original design intent.
Speaker 2: So it's it's kind of neat to watch. I mean,
Speaker 2: it's it doesn't happen too much that way anymore. But
Speaker 2: you mentioned earlier about being at Brambles in Lake County
Speaker 2: in California. That is very much the old world way
Speaker 2: of constructing a golf course, both in terms of having
Speaker 2: very few people out there building it, but then also
Speaker 2: also this process of starting to grass it and allowing
Speaker 2: that process to happen and then grasp some more and
Speaker 2: allow that to happen. Just this very old world slow
Speaker 2: evolution from concept to reality. And it's it's kind of
Speaker 2: neat to say too.
Speaker 1: Brambles is something I wanted to talk about, So I'm
Speaker 1: glad you just you know, brought me over there. You
Speaker 1: did all the heavy lifting for me. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a cool project. I'm really excited to see it continue
Speaker 1: to grow in and involve and be finished product. One
Speaker 1: of the unique things out there is the sheep. They're
Speaker 1: they're going to use sheep. I mean, is that one
Speaker 1: of the most unique maintenance I mean, you know in
Speaker 1: terms of it's the years twenty twenty two and you're
Speaker 1: going to and they're going to do, you know, really
Speaker 1: maintain the rough in the native area with with sheep
Speaker 1: and the sheep are going to roam around. It's got
Speaker 1: to be one of the more unique situations you've come
Speaker 1: across with maintenance. As we're kind of talking about maintenance, well, as.
Speaker 2: We said, Andy, it's Brambles is a complete throwback to
Speaker 2: bygone years and by gone centuries now almost in the
Speaker 2: way that it's evolving, very much like golf evolved in
Speaker 2: the UK and other places. But that is so to
Speaker 2: the credit of James Duncan, who's the inspiration and basically
Speaker 2: the well, the managing partner, but also I shouldn't say founder,
Speaker 2: I guess not because because of very Barriage and Chris
Speaker 2: Halsworth and other people who are out there who have
Speaker 2: been so supportive of James's concept. But it's been James's
Speaker 2: dream really for many years to try to create a
Speaker 2: golf course in America that was created and operated along
Speaker 2: the lines of the UK model, which was, yes, they
Speaker 2: have memberships, but it would be open to the you know,
Speaker 2: the public on certain days. And it was very very
Speaker 2: understated and low key. And of course James grew up
Speaker 2: in Scotland and Denmark, so he's been around sheep all
Speaker 2: his life. So when he got out there and realized
Speaker 2: that there was actually sheep herding and going on in
Speaker 2: northern California, he's like, oh, this is this is the
Speaker 2: perfect combination. So James is the one really who said,
Speaker 2: I think we should do this. I think we should
Speaker 2: sheep should be an integral part of the concept for Brambles,
Speaker 2: and it's it's not a foreign thing that's been brought here.
Speaker 2: It's it exists in this area and listen, but let's
Speaker 2: incorporate into the site. And so it's it's pretty neat
Speaker 2: to see. And through the whole construction of the course,
Speaker 2: we'd be out there wandering around just starting to you know, again,
Speaker 2: do minimal work in terms of earthworks and things on
Speaker 2: the site, but the sheep would be grazing. Literally, we'd
Speaker 2: walk through the sheep, you know, along the way going
Speaker 2: down the hole. So it is going to be neat.
Speaker 2: And it's the fact that it's it's not a foreign
Speaker 2: or one of these idealistic concepts that some marketing person
Speaker 2: might think of and say, Oh, wouldn't it be neat
Speaker 2: to have sheep on the golf course. That would be neat.
Speaker 2: Let's get some sheep. That's happened before people said oh,
Speaker 2: let's have some sheep on the golf course. The kyodies
Speaker 2: love that idea. They think that's a fabulous idea. Let's
Speaker 2: bring some food out onto the golf course. If you're
Speaker 2: not prepared to operationally manage the sheep, it's a really
Speaker 2: bad idea, particularly for the sheep. But in this case,
Speaker 2: because there you know, there are sheep herders there and
Speaker 2: there are people who know how to manage those flocks
Speaker 2: and uh, and they're doing that in conjunction with the
Speaker 2: creation of the golf course. So it's it's working.
Speaker 1: I think the guy with the hardest job, neither guy,
Speaker 1: the person, or the thing with the hardest job out
Speaker 1: there is zeus. Oh yeah, great Pyrenees. My wife has
Speaker 1: like recurring coyote nightmares, and that was the first thing
Speaker 1: I thought of when I saw the sheep is like,
Speaker 1: you're surrounded by these mountains and you're like this, this
Speaker 1: is coyote central, this is you know, mountain lion bobcats, Like,
Speaker 1: how do you protect the sheep? And they're oh, Zeus,
Speaker 1: the one Great Pyrenees. A dog protects eighty sheep or
Speaker 1: something like that.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, they're way more than eighty out there at times,
Speaker 2: and at times there are two of them. There's a
Speaker 2: Zeus has a twin and I don't know the twins name,
Speaker 2: but there I truthfully, I can't tell them apart. But yeah,
Speaker 2: it is. It is interesting to watch. It's in a way,
Speaker 2: it's got like going back centuries in time to see
Speaker 2: how that that process happens.
Speaker 1: I mean, we've been talking about agronomics, and I think
Speaker 1: like something that you know, the advances in agronomy that
Speaker 1: can open courses faster, provide playing conditions better, or you know,
Speaker 1: quicker better. There's a lot of benefits. But you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things that the sheep at Brambles is
Speaker 1: going to bring is is a real unpredictability. It's going
Speaker 1: to lead to different you know, you're gonna get a
Speaker 1: lot of different types of lies. There's gonna be a
Speaker 1: lot of different, you know, conditions throughout the course, Like
Speaker 1: are you excited about having out of play areas be
Speaker 1: you know, you don't know what you're gonna get over there,
Speaker 1: not out of play, but on the edges, you know,
Speaker 1: you're not sure really what you're gonna get versus like
Speaker 1: I think one of the kind of trends is this
Speaker 1: mono stand of like this is this rough is all
Speaker 1: maintained the same way across the golf course.
Speaker 2: Well, again, this is the old world concept of your
Speaker 2: playing golf in nature. We're not playing golf in a
Speaker 2: botanical garden, you know, or a laboratory or a turf
Speaker 2: grass nursery. We're playing golf in nature. And in that regard,
Speaker 2: the sheep fit in perfectly there because yes, the more
Speaker 2: centralized parts of the fairways and things, they're very broad fairways,
Speaker 2: as you know, but you know the majority of the
Speaker 2: area and the fairways will be very good, the turf
Speaker 2: conditions very good, but as you get closer to the edges,
Speaker 2: it's going to most likely become less good. And then
Speaker 2: as you get off into the manage rough, I guess
Speaker 2: you'd say some of that being mode, some of it
Speaker 2: being as you're alluding to mode by the sheep, it
Speaker 2: becomes a bit more of a well, you're not sure
Speaker 2: what it's going to be. You're certainly not likely to
Speaker 2: lose your ball, but you may have a pretty good line.
Speaker 2: You may just have a horrible lie. And sheep and
Speaker 2: a lot of ways no different than people. They love
Speaker 2: to eat, but they don't love to eat everything. So
Speaker 2: sheep will you know, Sheep will munch and eat all
Speaker 2: the stuff they want, and they'll leave tufts of things
Speaker 2: just sticking up. If they don't, you know, I guess
Speaker 2: they're desperate enough they might eat it. But that's how
Speaker 2: you see that sort of eating down and then a
Speaker 2: little tough sticking up here and there. And it's what
Speaker 2: it is. It's the connection to the history of golf.
Speaker 2: I mean, golf began, as you know, five hundred plus
Speaker 2: years ago and on the areas that were grazed by sheep.
Speaker 2: So it's brambles in that sense, is a connection through centuries.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it brings one of like the really
Speaker 1: neat things with golf is like you know, I always
Speaker 1: think of one shot. I always think of with this
Speaker 1: as like the Fisher's Island into the punch bowl over
Speaker 1: the blind shot into the punch bowl, and how you
Speaker 1: like feel like you're just like running up over this
Speaker 1: hill to see where your ball is because you don't know.
Speaker 1: And the same thing happens when you hit a shot
Speaker 1: and it's going to an area and you just have
Speaker 1: you have no clue what you're gonna get. You might
Speaker 1: get a perfect lie over there, you might be able
Speaker 1: to hit, you might end up in a great spot,
Speaker 1: but you also might end up and the whole way
Speaker 1: up that that thought in the back of your head
Speaker 1: is gonna be like, how is it?
Speaker 2: How I wonder?
Speaker 1: I hope I get a good lie. I hope I
Speaker 1: get a good lie. And and then you get there
Speaker 1: and you get to see it. It's like it adds
Speaker 1: a layer of suspense when it's not predictable.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: The last time we talked, it was a very different time.
Speaker 1: You know, it was before COVID. It was just months
Speaker 1: weeks before COVID kind of hit. Uh, and golf was
Speaker 1: in a lot different space. What how how have you
Speaker 1: seen the industry?
Speaker 2: Uh?
Speaker 1: And just the interest in building new golf courses changed
Speaker 1: over the last two years.
Speaker 2: Oh gee, and it's it's uh. You know, it sounds
Speaker 2: so horribly insensitive to say, but as as tragic as
Speaker 2: COVID has been, for so many people around the world,
Speaker 2: it's for golf. How do you say it without just
Speaker 2: sounding horribly insensitive. It's it's been a very positive thing.
Speaker 2: I mean, people have found themselves traveling less, you know,
Speaker 2: even to work, working from home, having perhaps more time
Speaker 2: to spend and going out to their you know, being outside,
Speaker 2: which was you know, the safest place I guess you
Speaker 2: could be. And I think in so many cases people
Speaker 2: have started to say, hey, there's a golf course down
Speaker 2: the street here, a little public golf course. I'm going
Speaker 2: to go out there. I played golf years ago. I
Speaker 2: haven't played much. I've been too busy this, that and
Speaker 2: the other. I've got time now I'm working from home.
Speaker 2: I can do at different times. And and they they've
Speaker 2: reconnected those who had who had had some connection with golf,
Speaker 2: you know, in their earlier years. And and then for
Speaker 2: other people and just who had never played, just to
Speaker 2: be able to be outside and enjoy some sort of activity,
Speaker 2: particularly with family and friends, and and and still feel comfortable.
Speaker 2: It's just incredible. The numbers of potential projects of being
Speaker 2: the people are calling about and considering and and uh
Speaker 2: those go they run, you know, across the spectrum, from
Speaker 2: restorations of old courses, remodeling of courses, expansion of courses,
Speaker 2: and still although not nearly as much, but still the
Speaker 2: the interest in creating new golf facilities.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask, how are you know, having
Speaker 1: worked when it was like the heyday, you know, nineties,
Speaker 1: two thousands, how does this period feel similar and how
Speaker 1: does it feel different than that period?
Speaker 2: Well, although you obviously, just because of what you just
Speaker 2: asked and we were talking about, you cannot take COVID
Speaker 2: out of the question. But let's set COVID aside, yeah,
Speaker 2: and say, given where we are now in the in
Speaker 2: the the the interest in the expansion of golf is
Speaker 2: so And I'm very prejudiced about this, so I don't
Speaker 2: speak for anyone else, not being not anyone else about this,
Speaker 2: just me personally, but I think it's so far and away,
Speaker 2: far and away better and more positive for golf than
Speaker 2: what it was in the eighties, nineties seventies, when my
Speaker 2: perspective was golf was being used for other purposes, most
Speaker 2: often to sell real estate. It was considered amenity for
Speaker 2: real estate in and so sites were almost universally demographically driven.
Speaker 2: Here's a population center, we want to build a development,
Speaker 2: we need golf to help sell it as open space
Speaker 2: and that sort of thing. Not that that was entirely wrong.
Speaker 2: It wasn't. There's some wonderful projects came out of that.
Speaker 2: But today I actually think this research is the boom
Speaker 2: and whatever you want to call it of golf has
Speaker 2: more to do with golf than it does big developments
Speaker 2: and other things. Not that those aren't still happening, but
Speaker 2: people really, at least the people we talk to, they
Speaker 2: are really interested in doing golf for the sake of golf,
Speaker 2: for people who are who are coming to play golf
Speaker 2: and want to play. And yes, of course they're the
Speaker 2: very high end private, you know, membership type clubs that
Speaker 2: are that are either wanting to expand or or someone
Speaker 2: wants to create that new type membership club. Those exist,
Speaker 2: but so much of the other is just about, Hey,
Speaker 2: people are enjoying golf, let's let's give them products, interesting products.
Speaker 2: And the fact that it's been proven now that people
Speaker 2: are willing to travel. Obviously with COVID that's very restricted,
Speaker 2: but I think the anticipation. The expectation is that people
Speaker 2: will travel to play interesting golf. So you're seeing more
Speaker 2: sites and courses that are very much site driven. They're appealing,
Speaker 2: they're naturally gifted for golf, and they're not being driven.
Speaker 2: The sites aren't being driven by the demographics. The sites
Speaker 2: are being driven by the potential for really good golf
Speaker 2: and then the people come. Now, you can't do that
Speaker 2: obviously everywhere, but that's what you're seeing a lot of today,
Speaker 2: and with a huge number of I should say huge,
Speaker 2: but with a significant number of really really talented young designers.
Speaker 1: It seems like it's kind of a I AM opportunity
Speaker 1: for a younger architect to get their break because of
Speaker 1: the interest in redesign new development and you know, some
Speaker 1: contraction in the industry over the tough times of the
Speaker 1: you know, the late two thousands and into the last
Speaker 1: couple of years where there's only a handful of new
Speaker 1: builds every year.
Speaker 2: I think there's again some of the younger men and
Speaker 2: women in this profession may disagree with this, but it
Speaker 2: seems to me, at least, there's never been a better
Speaker 2: time to be a young designer because I think there's
Speaker 2: more willingness. Now because of potential owners in clients looking
Speaker 2: at doing courses for the sake of golf, that they're
Speaker 2: more willing I think to step out a little bit
Speaker 2: and say, may not be the biggest name designer or
Speaker 2: the most well known, but I really like what this
Speaker 2: person's doing. I think they have the talent they need.
Speaker 2: I think they'll do something really good here, and that's
Speaker 2: a good thing. Whereas back again, you go back to
Speaker 2: the nineties, let's say or something, it was extremely difficult
Speaker 2: for an unknown design person to get a commission for
Speaker 2: a major project because it was about selling real estate,
Speaker 2: and to sell real estate you need name recognition, and
Speaker 2: so it was. Whereas one potential client who wasn't one
Speaker 2: of ours, but one potential client, and long, long, long ago,
Speaker 2: tell me, he said, Bill, He said, you do really
Speaker 2: nice golf courses. He said, but you have to understand
Speaker 2: the profession you're in is not about who can do
Speaker 2: the best golf course. It's about who can do the
Speaker 2: golf course that's the best amenity for real estate. He said,
Speaker 2: you have to understand this. You're looking at it in
Speaker 2: the very naive fashion. He was right, I was, but
Speaker 2: that was long ago. In the period you were talking
Speaker 2: about today, it's at least from my perspective, that philosophy
Speaker 2: doesn't hold true.
Speaker 1: I think it's completely shift shifted, you know. I think
Speaker 1: it's the complete opposite. Now, it's I think it's part
Speaker 1: of society. I think a lot of it, you know,
Speaker 1: matches society, and I think that's you know, bearing true
Speaker 1: with restaurants and coffee shops and everything, where if you
Speaker 1: make the best product wins. You know, if you have
Speaker 1: the best product, you're gonna you're gonna win. And that's
Speaker 1: a great thing for golf.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh, it's absolutely fantastic because in those years again
Speaker 2: that you were you were describing, it was so extraordinary
Speaker 2: difficult to break into the design business because it's one
Speaker 2: another developer told me once, he said, so, Bill, what
Speaker 2: have you done? And I said, well, I did this
Speaker 2: is but yeah, but you worked that was on Pete
Speaker 2: Dye projects. What have you done? And then you're sitting
Speaker 2: there and you go, well, well, this would be my
Speaker 2: first you know, you just see the whole thing change
Speaker 2: right there. You tell the Okay. Fortunately, I do think
Speaker 2: there's more opportunity now and I'm so happy to see it.
Speaker 1: I want to talk about a project that I've been
Speaker 1: to a couple times now since since we last talked
Speaker 1: Abandoned Trails. I'm quite spitting about that place. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think it's at the resort. It's got its cult
Speaker 1: following there among a lot of golf courses that are
Speaker 1: right on the and I would love to hear a
Speaker 1: little bit about the constructing the golf course and connecting
Speaker 1: those very distinct different areas of the course, the different ecosystems,
Speaker 1: if you would say, you could say the ocean, the
Speaker 1: dunescape ocean holes with the meadow holes, with the forest holes,
Speaker 1: and kind of how you guys creatively weave that journey together.
Speaker 2: Well, Andy, it was abandon Trails began when Mike Kaiser
Speaker 2: called and I remember quite well the conversation telephone conversation.
Speaker 2: He said, Bill, I'm thinking about doing a third golf
Speaker 2: course abandoned Dudes. He said, it will not be on
Speaker 2: the ocean, so you and Ben may not be interested,
Speaker 2: he said, but I would just like to have the
Speaker 2: conversation to see if you if you might be, and
Speaker 2: if you are, did you come and take a look
Speaker 2: at the site. And I remember then, Andy, I mean
Speaker 2: just said Mike. Yeah, absolutely, we would love to come sit.
Speaker 2: I've seen Bandon Dunes, I've seen Pacific Dunes. It's just fantastic.
Speaker 2: We'd love to do that. And it's not like the
Speaker 2: site has to be on the ocean. It's not like
Speaker 2: we have to say, oh, we've got to have the
Speaker 2: best site. If we can do something that's that you
Speaker 2: and we and hopefully others will thank complimentary to the
Speaker 2: whole goth experience there, then let's take a look at it.
Speaker 2: And he said, okay, come on, let's go. And so
Speaker 2: went out and did look at the site at that
Speaker 2: particular time, Andy, Mike and Howard McKee, you know McKee's Pub.
Speaker 2: Howard McKee who since passed on, but did all the
Speaker 2: planning and permitting and everything for Bandon Dunes and for Mike,
Speaker 2: and it was a fabulous architect to guy. But they
Speaker 2: had thought that abandoned trails would be all east of
Speaker 2: the big Dune Ridge back in the forest.
Speaker 1: And that dune ridge is the dune ridge that runs
Speaker 1: through from the hotel really the lodge, all the way across,
Speaker 1: you know, like two at Bandon Dunes plays into it,
Speaker 1: and then eighteen at Pacific Dunes plays along it, and
Speaker 1: Old mac plays over it on the third hole. So
Speaker 1: that's the dunes ridge, and it'd be east inland of that.
Speaker 2: Yes, the and the You're exactly right, it's the same
Speaker 2: dune ridge. It is to the right of thirteen for example,
Speaker 2: at Pacific Dunes, and then you play over it on
Speaker 2: the second hole. I guess it is at Old McDonald.
Speaker 2: But it it extends down the coast. It's just a
Speaker 2: giant dune ridge there. And so originally Howard and Mike's
Speaker 2: at let's build it back in the forest. It'll be
Speaker 2: more protected from the wind. And I went out there
Speaker 2: with that understanding, and I went back and I wandered
Speaker 2: back there as best you could. It was very hard
Speaker 2: to get through because of the trees and the gorse
Speaker 2: and things. There were trails though, there were both animal
Speaker 2: trails and a couple of hiking trails that went back
Speaker 2: through there, and I would just look at it. I
Speaker 2: went out for a number of days, but each time
Speaker 2: I was staying in the lodge, there abandoned dunes and
Speaker 2: I would walk out, and each day I would walk
Speaker 2: out and I looked at the dunes. What's now number
Speaker 2: one and eighteen abandoned trails, and there was a trail
Speaker 2: that I walked on through those dunes, and I walked
Speaker 2: out through what's now number five and number seventeen, the
Speaker 2: two part threes there what we call the meadow area.
Speaker 2: And then I'd walk and get and go around the
Speaker 2: bottom end of the big dune and back into the forest.
Speaker 2: And each day andy i'd come back, I go, I
Speaker 2: could see, I guess putting it all over here in
Speaker 2: the forest. And then one day Mike Causer was out
Speaker 2: there an hour and I just remember looking at both
Speaker 2: of them and I go, you know, guys, this is,
Speaker 2: after all called abandoned dunes. What if we start in
Speaker 2: the dunes and work our way to the forest. And
Speaker 2: Mike was going, well, I kind of like that, how
Speaker 2: are you going to do that? Though? And I's go, well,
Speaker 2: I don't know, but it might be interesting that the
Speaker 2: more I've walked out, there's three distinctly different environments. Dunes
Speaker 2: again what we call the meadow with the beautiful but
Speaker 2: the beautiful trees and the connect and neck and the
Speaker 2: ground vegetation and sand, and then of course in the
Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest forest. And so I'm not quite sure, but
Speaker 2: I think maybe there could be a way, and Mike said, well,
Speaker 2: how are you going to get over the big the
Speaker 2: big ridge? And I'm not sure about that either, Mike,
Speaker 2: I said, I know, we can go at the bottom
Speaker 2: end of it where it's it's much smaller, which is
Speaker 2: down where six Green is seventy.
Speaker 1: So that was a big lynch panters that you.
Speaker 2: Could get around that way. It's just how you were
Speaker 2: going to get back across. And but the more just
Speaker 2: wandered out there and wondered out, and Ben came out
Speaker 2: and we just kind of, you know, we looked at it,
Speaker 2: and it just it just seemed certainly to me, and
Speaker 2: Ben was in agreement about this. It could be interesting
Speaker 2: to tie those three elements environments together, and and Mike
Speaker 2: was so as he's always been so supportive, and even
Speaker 2: though it didn't fit what he was thinking of in
Speaker 2: the beginning, he was open to it. And Howard McKee,
Speaker 2: who had permitted everything there, and Howard was Howard whom
Speaker 2: I just absolutely told one of the most amazing human
Speaker 2: beings I've ever met, and talented people. But I would
Speaker 2: have dinner with Howard quite often, and he go, Bill,
Speaker 2: I don't know, I just don't know, he said, he said.
Speaker 2: First of all, he said, we're getting ready to dedicate
Speaker 2: a lot of this dunes area and to preserve. And
Speaker 2: he said secondly, he said, that area where you go
Speaker 2: through you call the meadow. He said, that may be
Speaker 2: the prettiest property on this entire all abandoned dune's site.
Speaker 2: You know, he said, I just don't know how you're
Speaker 2: going to do golf out there. He goes, but maybe
Speaker 2: you could convince me. And Howard too was open minded.
Speaker 2: And the more we looked at it, and the more
Speaker 2: he was tried to piece some holes together in the routing,
Speaker 2: he said, all right, all right. I remember distinctly him
Speaker 2: calling me. They were met me out there where the
Speaker 2: old road used to go in to the main road
Speaker 2: in the abandoned dunes. You hit over now on the
Speaker 2: third T and the eighteenth T. And Howard and Mike
Speaker 2: are both going, you're gonna play over the main entry road.
Speaker 2: Well we did. We've all seen places you do it
Speaker 2: a lot, and they go, okay, that's okay. But Howard
Speaker 2: came out there and then he just said, Bill, you
Speaker 2: have one thousand feet one thousand feet from this road
Speaker 2: towards the ocean. He said, that's it. You can't go
Speaker 2: one inch more. He said, I've talked to the you know,
Speaker 2: all the agencies, the state agencies, the county agencies. We
Speaker 2: can get you that much that strip of dunes which
Speaker 2: is exactly where one and the two and eighteen or
Speaker 2: he said, So you've got that nothing more. And then
Speaker 2: he looked at me and he said, and if you
Speaker 2: mess this up in this meadow out here, I'm just
Speaker 2: gonna kill you. He said, this is my favorite place
Speaker 2: in the entire resort. And I said, Howard, look at this,
Speaker 2: because what's now the fifth hole, the little part three?
Speaker 2: The green was there you were telling earlier about greens.
Speaker 2: It was there, the big trough in the middle of it.
Speaker 2: It just graded it off enough to put some pins
Speaker 2: on it. The green at seventeen was more or less there,
Speaker 2: and all the stuff in between. So it was it
Speaker 2: was like, Howard, we're gonna build two part thre's in
Speaker 2: your meadal here, one going this way, one gone that
Speaker 2: we will do very little disturbance. And he goes, okay.
Speaker 2: So anyway, that's when it linked together. And people say, well,
Speaker 2: where did the name trails come from? It came from
Speaker 2: trails because there were hiking trails out there, particularly through
Speaker 2: the meadow part the dunes and the meadow, but then
Speaker 2: the animal trails over at the Big Dune Ridge and
Speaker 2: back into the east. So I used to literally walk
Speaker 2: around all of those trails. And so when Mike and
Speaker 2: everybody was talking about what what should the name be
Speaker 2: and just go well, there's a lot of trails out there.
Speaker 2: So they said, all right, banda Trails. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think you know, when you hit over the road
Speaker 1: on that third T shot, there's just once you cross
Speaker 1: that road, there's this feel of like it's a departure
Speaker 1: from the place that you're in. And I think that's
Speaker 1: part of what makes it such a you know, it's
Speaker 1: such an endearing golf course because you're at this place
Speaker 1: and it's a resort. It's a resort. Like I think,
Speaker 1: like you're at this resort, you're you know, and it's
Speaker 1: it's you're part of this society at this resort, and
Speaker 1: when you play trails, you just feel like you get away.
Speaker 2: It's interesting, Andy, right, the exact spots you're talking about.
Speaker 2: The T shot on number three is one of my
Speaker 2: favorite personal stories with Mike Kaiser because we used to
Speaker 2: walk out and we would the holes had been staked,
Speaker 2: and we would walk the first hole. Mike could be
Speaker 2: all excited. The second hole in the dunes, he'd be
Speaker 2: all excited. We'd get to where the third tea is
Speaker 2: right there by the second green, and of course we're
Speaker 2: looking at a forest of trees and the road, and
Speaker 2: Mike would always look to the ocean, you know where
Speaker 2: the big dunes aren't there? He goes, He'd stand there, going, Bill,
Speaker 2: why on earth would we go that way? Meaning the
Speaker 2: way the whole The third o goes, Why wouldn't we
Speaker 2: go that way toward the ocean? And I remember looking anything, Mike,
Speaker 2: I've been that way. The dues are giant, and the
Speaker 2: wind blows really hard. I said, we could deal with that, probably,
Speaker 2: I said, but the primary reason we're not going that way.
Speaker 2: You don't own that property. It's the state land. And
Speaker 2: he goes, oh, he owned so much as he didn't
Speaker 2: know where to and I didn't know where the property
Speaker 2: boundary was until it was pointed out to me. But
Speaker 2: I said, we're going this way. He goes, why on
Speaker 2: earth would I want to go that way? So the
Speaker 2: third hole, the third hole was cleared and the guys
Speaker 2: worked on it, David's zinc In whom you've met. David
Speaker 2: did most of the work on the third hole, and
Speaker 2: other guys did too, but David did so much of
Speaker 2: that hole and once it was all roughed in, and
Speaker 2: of course once it was grown in and you're now playing.
Speaker 2: I have yet to ever play or walk that golf
Speaker 2: course with Mike Kaiser that we didn't go one to
Speaker 2: We get to the third t and he would look
Speaker 2: at me and he'd smile and go, why on earth
Speaker 2: would I want to go this way? And it's one
Speaker 2: I think it's truly one of his favorite holes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I you know, when I think about that golf course,
Speaker 1: the first thing I always think about is those metal holes.
Speaker 1: I really like hiking, and it reminds me of I
Speaker 1: think that's one of the things that I have such
Speaker 1: an affinity for the course because it feels like you're
Speaker 1: going on hike, like you go on a hike for
Speaker 1: the journey and the different things that you see along
Speaker 1: the way and the different you know, vistas, but also
Speaker 1: the different landscapes that you go through. The most interesting
Speaker 1: hike that I can ever remember is up in the
Speaker 1: northern Michigan and you walk through this Northern Michigan forest
Speaker 1: and then you get out and it's down Lake Superior,
Speaker 1: and you get out and it's like you're on a
Speaker 1: Caribbean beach after three miles and you get out to
Speaker 1: this wonderful place and you sit there for a while
Speaker 1: and then you hike back. But it's about the places
Speaker 1: you go and you see and pass and then you
Speaker 1: come back eventually to the starting point.
Speaker 2: As we were talking about earlier about routing golf courses,
Speaker 2: that's the way we perceive routing that a golf course
Speaker 2: should be. How do you how would you lay out
Speaker 2: a course in such a way that if you were
Speaker 2: going out there to hike or go for just a
Speaker 2: morning walk or something, how would you want to walk
Speaker 2: that property? If to see the most interesting elements of
Speaker 2: that property and it be invigorating, but not like so
Speaker 2: taxing that you just it's not fun, you know, And
Speaker 2: so how would you do it? So we kind of
Speaker 2: look at how you lay out of golf courses. How
Speaker 2: would I if I weren't playing golf and I just
Speaker 2: came out to walk around, where would I want to go?
Speaker 2: And how would I do it? And you you know,
Speaker 2: sure times you want to go up on the hills
Speaker 2: and look out over things. But you don't want to
Speaker 2: do it time after time after time. So you know
Speaker 2: you do, but you want to just travel around the property.
Speaker 2: And in our case, we're trying to get you to
Speaker 2: walk around the property, see interesting things, beautiful things, and oh,
Speaker 2: by the way, you're playing golf.
Speaker 1: And of course I revisited uh recently. I hadn't been
Speaker 1: there criminally. It's not far away from where I live,
Speaker 1: and I had I played a junior tournament in the
Speaker 1: early two thousands at Warren Golf Course and I hadn't
Speaker 1: been back since. And I distinctly remembered holes because I
Speaker 1: remember as a as a sixteen seventeen year old kid,
Speaker 1: I'd never seen greens quite like you know, some of
Speaker 1: the greens out there. I remember the short part three
Speaker 1: what was it, the fourth or fifth hole, and you know,
Speaker 1: I just that was my vivid memory as a kid.
Speaker 1: And you know, I went back and I you know,
Speaker 1: I'm how much is maintenance over time? And then you know,
Speaker 1: do you think, like you know, I walked away. You
Speaker 1: know some of those greens out there are some of it.
Speaker 1: I feel like some of your most eccentric greens. How
Speaker 1: is your you know, the greens shifted as your career
Speaker 1: has progressed, you know, and you know, was that more
Speaker 1: of a gen rating interest on a less you know?
Speaker 1: You know, you know, we just talked about abandoned trails.
Speaker 1: Is you know the greens out there to be I
Speaker 1: love wild greens. So I was out there and I
Speaker 1: was like, God, I should be coming out here at
Speaker 1: least once every year.
Speaker 2: Well, I think, yeah, if you have a site, for instance,
Speaker 2: a Notre Dame there, it's a worn course, it's basically
Speaker 2: a flat site. It's got a couple you know, spots
Speaker 2: back there that go up and down the hills. But
Speaker 2: it was it was well and it was a dumping
Speaker 2: ground for the university to be perfectly canted. It was
Speaker 2: full of junk back there. It was in the trees,
Speaker 2: but there was there were automobiles, scoreboards, it was. It
Speaker 2: was just a mass back there. And so once they
Speaker 2: cleaned all that up and then they you know, we
Speaker 2: cleared the trees. But it's just it's not very compelling
Speaker 2: site in the sense of the landforms, although you do
Speaker 2: have some things to work with. In Judey Creek it
Speaker 2: goes through it's really pretty, but we just felt like
Speaker 2: the interest here is going to be more on the greens.
Speaker 2: And to your point, if the site's more subtle or
Speaker 2: the landforms are not so dramatic, then we try to
Speaker 2: make the golf interest, you know, particularly leading into and
Speaker 2: around and on the greens on the putting service. If
Speaker 2: you have a site that's very dramatic in the landforms
Speaker 2: for the big parts of the golf course, we try
Speaker 2: to tone down the greens. So and for example the
Speaker 2: sand tills, let's say, because of all the natural contours
Speaker 2: in the fairways and particularly because of the wind element,
Speaker 2: we just knew we've got to be pretty subtle with
Speaker 2: these greens. If we go build wild greens here, it's
Speaker 2: going to be unplayable, it will not be any fun.
Speaker 2: And so that was toning down green to be hopefully
Speaker 2: a bit of a balance with all the wild contours
Speaker 2: in the fairways Notre Dame a little bit to reverse.
Speaker 2: Not much wild stuff in the fairways, so a little more.
Speaker 2: Although it's not not hugely unnulating grains by any means,
Speaker 2: but they are quite intricate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're super cool. I really liked that golf course.
Speaker 1: One of the best, one of the very best values
Speaker 1: in all of golf. I mean, I think it was
Speaker 1: sixty or fifty bucks an hour and a half drive
Speaker 1: from Chicago. And anybody in Chicago, whether you're a member
Speaker 1: at Chicago Golf Club or Short Acres, whether you're you know,
Speaker 1: whether you play public golf at you know, Ravslow or
Speaker 1: the city courses. It's worth getting in your car in
Speaker 1: summer when the students aren't around and going out there
Speaker 1: because you get great hours with it on the East
Speaker 1: Coast or Eastern time zone, it stays light really late,
Speaker 1: and go out there and play. It's worth a stop.
Speaker 2: It's While you're on that subject, though about the Warne
Speaker 2: course in Notre Dame. Back to our earlier conversation about
Speaker 2: seeing a golf course evolved in a very positive fashion.
Speaker 2: Notre Dame may be the most extreme example of that
Speaker 2: of any course that we've done. When it was first done,
Speaker 2: it was very rough, very rough. And then when the
Speaker 2: decision was made to put golf carts out there when
Speaker 2: there were no card pass at the time, after it
Speaker 2: opened it got even more rough, and so it had
Speaker 2: its it had its growing pains at the beginning. And
Speaker 2: yet what numerous people who have been there, who've worked
Speaker 2: on it have done, but particularly a guy named Matt
Speaker 2: Sealin who was a superintendent there. He just he just
Speaker 2: left there this past year. But Matt Sealand was there,
Speaker 2: I guess for a dozen or more years. He took
Speaker 2: that thing beyond anything we could have hoped for. He
Speaker 2: made it better and better and better and better, and
Speaker 2: he did it with a very very small crew, very
Speaker 2: limited budget, and for public golf. And it was just
Speaker 2: fascinating to see John Foster, who's the golf director there
Speaker 2: for so many years. He just recently retired to But
Speaker 2: what they did is so maybe the best example at
Speaker 2: any place that we've worked of how it's the people
Speaker 2: who care for it can sew can more influence it,
Speaker 2: even more so than some of these places that have
Speaker 2: that have progressed steadily in a positive fashion, like Old
Speaker 2: Sandwich or Friar's Hit or stream Song or all these
Speaker 2: places that, but Notre Dame. It went from a real
Speaker 2: struggle to a to something really special because of people
Speaker 2: like John Foster and Matt Sealing. And when the USGA
Speaker 2: was there, when they played the US Senior Open, they
Speaker 2: just thought it was fabulous.
Speaker 1: Last question here before we get you out of here.
Speaker 1: I'm curious. You know, something that always interests me about
Speaker 1: about your profession is, you know, people people retire and stuff.
Speaker 1: I what, after all you've accomplished, what keeps you really
Speaker 1: interested in the job?
Speaker 2: Oh? God, man? And I mean to me may be
Speaker 2: the easiest question of any it's it's uh, if you
Speaker 2: have a dream when you're a kid, and one day
Speaker 2: you wake up and it's it's real, It's actually happening
Speaker 2: and has happened. I mean, do you want the dream band?
Speaker 2: It's it's yeah, it's a business, of course, it's a business.
Speaker 2: But oh lord, I just love it. I just love it.
Speaker 2: And it's as long as you know, as long as
Speaker 2: people are interested in their involvement and their their projects,
Speaker 2: as long as I don't think that's going anywhere, you know,
Speaker 2: as long as the guys that work with us are
Speaker 2: willing to go again for another year or two. As
Speaker 2: long as you know, as long as been and our
Speaker 2: physically you know able to do it. I just I
Speaker 2: love nothing more probably than just walking like you're talking
Speaker 2: about hike, walking out on the property and trying to
Speaker 2: envision golf and how a course might come to life
Speaker 2: there and then and then obviously own through that process,
Speaker 2: and so yeah, I don't know. I mean I remember
Speaker 2: talking to Ben just very recently and I said, Ben,
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I guess the train is kind
Speaker 2: of pulling into the station, but I think there's still
Speaker 2: I hope there's still some track down the way before
Speaker 2: we kind of come to a complete hall put again.
Speaker 2: I mean, people think I make this stuff up, I guess,
Speaker 2: but it's it's absolutely true, Andy. I mean, I can
Speaker 2: see it right now and pinch myself because I I
Speaker 2: could be going, really, is this really happening? Did this happen?
Speaker 2: And I go, I'm not sure this is real? And
Speaker 2: so if I'm in the midst of the dream or
Speaker 2: a dream, I'm hoping it continues for a bit. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Doing what you love is it makes it not feel
Speaker 1: like work. So all right, thank you so much.
Speaker 2: I get it.
Speaker 1: Always always such a fun time talking. And and we'll
Speaker 1: we'll see you hopefully down the road sooner than later,
Speaker 1: sooner than the last time we saw you.
Speaker 2: Well, let's hope, so Andy, let's hope for good times
Speaker 2: ahead and hopefully our pazz will cross.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to another edition of the Friday Podcast.
Speaker 1: A big thanks to Meg Atkins who edited the podcast,
Speaker 1: as well as Garrett Morrison who did some work on
Speaker 1: the audio as well as a quick reminder, we have
Speaker 1: a new event releasing next week. It's The Banker, which
Speaker 1: will be hosted at Perry Maxwell's first design, his home course,
Speaker 1: Dornic Hills. This golf course was restored last year by
Speaker 1: Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf Design. They brought back a
Speaker 1: lot of the features that were missing, some of the
Speaker 1: Maxwell greens, and you know it is an exceptional place
Speaker 1: to play golf. It is in Oklahoma. It is only
Speaker 1: an hour and a half from the Dallas airport though,
Speaker 1: so it's an easy place to get to Dallas and
Speaker 1: Oklahoma City hour and a half from each of those airports,
Speaker 1: and a really neat spot that you should want to see.
Speaker 1: Obviously important design in the history of golf architecture, and
Speaker 1: of course that has got a fresh look, fresh restoration
Speaker 1: from Tom dok and runs down his golf design that
Speaker 1: comes out next Monday, February seventh. So thank you very much,
Speaker 1: and we'll see you later this week with another edition
Speaker 1: of the Friday Podcast that will center on what you
Speaker 1: need to know about Perry Maxwell.