WEBVTT - Catching Up with Bill Coore 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:04.880 Today's episode of the Frida Egg Podcast is brought to 0:00:04.920 --> 0:00:08.880 you by Golf Genius. This is a new partner. We 0:00:09.680 --> 0:00:12.799 decided to partner with golf Genius because we saw their 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:16.320 software out in the wild at are events. They are 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:20.840 now the official I Guess tournament software provider of the 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:24.439 Fried Egg. Obviously, they are most known for their tournament 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:27.560 management software, which is you know, it gives you live 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.200 scoring if you're playing in the event. 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And now to our podcast. 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.800 I miss a green for example, I'm already upset when 0:01:03.840 --> 0:01:05.920 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:07.280 And when I find my ball. 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.160 In Frida eggad Frida Egg. 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.600 Frida Egg, Frida Egg Bride egg, Lie, I'm about ready 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:14.680 to run off of the hump. 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.160 Today's episode of the Frida Egg Podcast is with the 0:01:40.280 --> 0:01:44.880 legendary golf course architect Bill Coore. So this is the 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:47.520 third time that I've talked to Bill, and uh we 0:01:47.840 --> 0:01:50.960 we caught up on a recent trip to Scottsdale and 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.600 just kind of talked with him. This is the first 0:01:53.600 --> 0:01:56.360 time we've talked post COVID. So, you know, the industry 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.360 is buzzing, lots of things going on, and uh never 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.800 a shortage of stuff to discuss with mister Krer. So 0:02:02.920 --> 0:02:05.960 thank you to Bill for taking the time, and now 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:10.080 here is our interview. 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:15.840 It's so good to see you again. 0:02:15.919 --> 0:02:21.040 And it's been a while before COVID. It was like 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:23.560 a month or months before COVID. 0:02:24.840 --> 0:02:26.480 Where was the talking? 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:29.600 Yeah, do you listen to music? 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:32.360 Do I listen to music? Yes? 0:02:33.040 --> 0:02:34.520 What kind of music do you listen to? 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:40.880 Sounds like one of those questions. I'm just curious. 0:02:41.000 --> 0:02:43.760 I never I never asked you. I don't know, you know, 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:44.799 I figured, you know. 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.960 It's interesting. I listened to quite a broad spectrum. I 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:54.640 like everything from classical music to country western. So I 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.639 guess if I if I if you had to say, 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:01.320 what do you listen to more often? It would be 0:03:02.639 --> 0:03:10.400 so like people my age, oldies, rock and roll type stuff. 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:14.280 But but no, I if I'm driving in a rental 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:18.519 car or something quite often listening to classical music. 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.480 It's a lot of young shapers or younger, you know, 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.040 I don't think a lot of them are young. Now, Yeah, 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:29.440 so a lot of shapers listen to music when they shape. 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:32.000 Do you ever listen to music when you're doing work? 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:32.120 On? 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:32.600 Of course? 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:38.520 No? No, and by work you mean just walking out around. 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:41.280 The course walking or if you're on the sand pro. 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:48.600 Or no, I don't any I may. I may think 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:52.119 of a song sometimes, like like I guess almost all 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.400 of us. Sometimes you think of a song, then you 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:58.320 can't get it out of your head, the lyrics or something, 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:02.160 and then and then it just keep repeating over and over. 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.920 But it's not like I try to listen to music 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.640 for a calming effect or now if I'm driving, yes, 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.200 but not out walking on the site. 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:15.480 Now, what's your process for like building a green? How 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.160 does that work? How do you guys build a green? 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:20.600 You know and come up with green concepts? 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:26.240 Well, we start with concepts based on what we've seen 0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:30.160 on the ground. I mean, green's no different than entire 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:34.800 golf holes. If there's some natural feature, and by that 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:38.240 it's generally a land form, a contour of some sort 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:45.159 that just conjures up a mental image of how a 0:04:45.240 --> 0:04:48.960 green might fit at that site. And then obviously with 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.200 the awareness of what type of shots going to be 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:54.520 played into that green, how long the hole is, what 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:58.080 the angle is, all that sort of thing. But for us, 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:00.839 it's very often just seeing what the contours are on 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.920 the ground, not just for the entire hole, but even 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:08.840 at the green areas. And sometimes you just see areas that, well, 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:11.359 this is a green, this is a gift that's already here. 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:13.680 You know, we have to do almost nothing to this 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.720 or very little. And obviously there's the reverse of that. 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:20.800 There are times that you have to link holes together 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:23.480 and you have to build a green in an area 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:28.120 that you know to help the sequence of the holes 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.039 or the linkage of the holes, and there's nothing to 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:35.119 work with at that green site. So then then you 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:39.560 you create a concept from you know mentally that you 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:44.120 think fits into the again, the concept of the entire course. 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:48.360 But now if we can find if we can find 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:55.719 natural sites that just feel like interesting green contours. We're 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.080 going to gravitate toward those whenever possible. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.359 When you have to create what's kind of you know, 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.160 is it just really site specific with like what you're 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:08.159 having to do, whether it be get out of a 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.880 tough corner or you know, a severe piece of land, 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.560 or if it's you know, kind of a connector hole, 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:16.960 say over the least interesting where you have to spruce 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:19.960 something up. How do you Is it all just kind 0:06:20.000 --> 0:06:24.159 of specific on what the you know, situation is and 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:25.720 the holes sequenced around it. 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:29.800 I think for the most part it's correct. Yes, I 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:35.680 mean you obviously we start out studying the sites, and 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.440 we've talked about this, you know, at length in the past. 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.560 But we start studying the sites trying to get a 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:45.760 sense of how we would travel around through each individual 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:51.400 site and see the interesting features natural features of that 0:06:51.520 --> 0:06:55.680 site and incorporate them in some manner into the golf course. 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:02.520 But then we proceed into breaking sort of that circulation 0:07:02.720 --> 0:07:07.839 pattern down into individual into a routing for a golf course, 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.679 into individual holes that of course go to combine together 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:17.120 to create the golf course, whether it's nine holes or 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:21.120 eighteen or in the case of some part three courses 0:07:21.240 --> 0:07:25.760 thirteen or seventeen or different numbers. But so, you know, 0:07:26.440 --> 0:07:30.640 as we've talked about before, we get the circulation pattern 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:34.880 first to showcase the site, and we start to break 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:38.080 it and then into the individual holes based on the 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:45.360 landforms and how we might play golf on that site. 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:49.200 And then from there, once we have a routing that 0:07:49.280 --> 0:07:53.640 we're quite comfortable with, we start saying what type of 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.560 golf concepts would we like to see on this site 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:03.120 that would be you know, very interesting in terms of 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:07.320 playing golf, but would be complementary to the site and 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:14.440 help showcase the interesting aspects of the site while hopefully 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:18.880 providing entertaining and you know, again to use the word 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.560 interesting so often, but interesting golf. 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:25.600 In the process, you got to get those synonyms, synonyms 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:28.240 like you know, compelling. I've run into this all the 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:30.280 time whenever I write It's like I want to say 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:31.600 interesting so many times I. 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.480 Know I abandoned. I both get we we so over 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:41.040 overuse that combination of fun and interesting. You know, we've 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:43.240 done it for decades now, I guess so. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:48.600 Uh but yeah, with uh your site, I think like 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.680 you obviously have worked at a lot of spectacular sites 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:55.800 that people can easily recognize it as spectacular Sandhills Friars 0:08:55.840 --> 0:09:01.520 had you know, the new course at Tari. What's the 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:06.720 site that people might not know was spectacular that actually 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.880 when you guys got to see that might be more 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:13.760 subtly spectacular. What would you say, is the site that 0:09:13.800 --> 0:09:17.720 you've worked at that was really underratedly beautiful and great 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:21.000 for golf that you never hear listed as like your 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:24.960 spectacular site. 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:31.880 G Andy. You know this site that was so good 0:09:31.920 --> 0:09:35.520 for golf, and you don't hear a great deal about it, 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.000 although it does show up in those lists of you know, 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.440 considered special courses. A bit old Sandwich. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:46.120 I kind of thought. I was thinking that because whenever 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:48.800 I see a picture of that golf course, I'm just like, God, 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:50.800 that looks just so beautiful. 0:09:51.240 --> 0:09:56.760 Well, it's so it so reflects the character of New England, 0:09:57.440 --> 0:10:01.240 and particularly that the greater Boston area, in the Cape 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:05.680 Cod area there. The it's it's got everything from sand 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:10.400 to some giant boulders, glacial boulders and uh it's but 0:10:10.520 --> 0:10:14.760 the contours for the most part are reasonably subtle. It's 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:18.559 not flat by any means, but it's just the combination 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:25.960 of the the landforms, the vegetation, and then the part 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.720 of it has to be too. Just the area and 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:32.200 the and the heritage of golf in that area. It 0:10:32.240 --> 0:10:37.000 all goes together to make it, uh, pretty pretty special place. 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.200 I was there not too long ago and hadn't been 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:44.040 there in several years, and I just walked around and felt, 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:48.360 you know, we try to be really understated about stuff 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.400 we do, but this is pretty good. And uh in 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:55.840 one of the amazing things any because I know you've 0:10:55.880 --> 0:11:02.160 done interviews and and uh, you know, focused pieces about 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.439 golf course superintendents, you know, the man and the women 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:10.440 who take care of these courses. And from Ben's in 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:16.080 my perspective, the design side, there's nothing can be better 0:11:16.640 --> 0:11:20.120 than to try than to create a golf course with 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:27.240 an intended you know, a certain design intent and then 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:31.600 see that golf course get better and better and better 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:35.160 through the years and progress in a very positive way. 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:42.800 To attain that design intent. And what John McCormick, who 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:45.360 actually just retired at the end of this year but 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:48.240 has done for all these years at Old Sandwich since 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:52.839 we built it with he knew exactly what we were 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.880 trying to do with the golf course. He knew even 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.760 though it wasn't in its earliest years. He knew that 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:04.640 concept was was there and was close, but wasn't totally fulfilled, 0:12:05.120 --> 0:12:08.640 and he made it happen. He's it's just gotten better 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.880 each time you go. And there's just simply nothing from 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.760 our perspective that could be more rewarding than that to 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.439 just go. You do something you think has potential, and 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:24.359 you watch other people then make that potential realized. 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:28.679 Yeah, it's it's a neat thing when you see when 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.000 you go back somewhere after a couple of years and 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:35.360 you see it significantly you know, it plays significantly better 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:38.520 because of small little tweaks. It's not huge things. And 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.960 I think something that's you know, odd with what you 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.760 guys do. You know, a house architect and builder, they 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:50.800 hand over a pristine product. In a way, you guys 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:55.360 hand over a product that's that's young and almost fragile 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.280 because it's you know, you you grow it in and 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:03.199 it's gonna mature and be playing its best maybe two 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:06.000 years after you guys are done with your work, so 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:10.360 you kind of hand it over to to owners and 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:15.480 superintendents and from there the potential has kind of realized. 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.760 A couple of years after where you know and potentially 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:22.480 you know a decade later it keeps getting better. But 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.439 you don't hand over a product like a car or 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:28.320 house where the best you know it's going to be 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.720 is the day you move in or the day you 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:32.760 turn on the ignition if it's a brand new car. 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:38.960 Absolutely absolutely correct. Years ago, it used to be thought 0:13:39.000 --> 0:13:43.800 of that when you opened the golf course, it would 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:48.400 be about five years until you felt like it had 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:50.960 it had gotten to the point you hoped it would be. 0:13:52.880 --> 0:14:01.040 Then in particularly with the influx of well financing and development, 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:09.360 and with the the advance of equipment and all these things, 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:13.120 we went through a period there where was almost instant gratification. 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:17.400 With enough money, we can make these golf courses almost 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:21.640 perfect on day one. We can side the golf course, 0:14:21.760 --> 0:14:24.160 we can transplant trees, you can do this, you can 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:26.840 do that. It was it was almost to the point 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:32.080 that you didn't you didn't think of it in terms 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:38.120 of that longer term process to get to attain the goals. 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:44.000 It was again instant gratification. We want it now, and 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:49.320 you know that's that's okay in its way, and that 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:54.120 was done for quite a long time, particularly big very 0:14:54.160 --> 0:14:59.240 well funded developments, but we kind of still prefer the 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:03.800 old fashioned way. As you described, let it evolve. The 0:15:03.880 --> 0:15:07.000 design evolves when you're when you're under the process of 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:12.400 creating the golf course, but then let the maturity evolve too, 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:15.920 as long as it's hopefully within the framework of the 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:20.120 direction you wanted to go and again the original design intent. 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:26.320 So it's it's kind of neat to watch. I mean, 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:29.040 it's it doesn't happen too much that way anymore. But 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:36.120 you mentioned earlier about being at Brambles in Lake County 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:40.520 in California. That is very much the old world way 0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:44.800 of constructing a golf course, both in terms of having 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:48.760 very few people out there building it, but then also 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:54.160 also this process of starting to grass it and allowing 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:56.760 that process to happen and then grasp some more and 0:15:56.800 --> 0:16:01.800 allow that to happen. Just this very old world slow 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:09.720 evolution from concept to reality. And it's it's kind of 0:16:09.760 --> 0:16:10.560 neat to say too. 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:13.800 Brambles is something I wanted to talk about, So I'm 0:16:13.840 --> 0:16:16.200 glad you just you know, brought me over there. You 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.680 did all the heavy lifting for me. You know, it's 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:24.720 a cool project. I'm really excited to see it continue 0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:29.480 to grow in and involve and be finished product. One 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.960 of the unique things out there is the sheep. They're 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:35.840 they're going to use sheep. I mean, is that one 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.880 of the most unique maintenance I mean, you know in 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:42.200 terms of it's the years twenty twenty two and you're 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:45.200 going to and they're going to do, you know, really 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.400 maintain the rough in the native area with with sheep 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.440 and the sheep are going to roam around. It's got 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:53.320 to be one of the more unique situations you've come 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:57.320 across with maintenance. As we're kind of talking about maintenance, well, as. 0:16:57.160 --> 0:17:02.840 We said, Andy, it's Brambles is a complete throwback to 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:09.359 bygone years and by gone centuries now almost in the 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:15.560 way that it's evolving, very much like golf evolved in 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:20.679 the UK and other places. But that is so to 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:27.480 the credit of James Duncan, who's the inspiration and basically 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:33.320 the well, the managing partner, but also I shouldn't say founder, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:36.720 I guess not because because of very Barriage and Chris 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:38.840 Halsworth and other people who are out there who have 0:17:39.320 --> 0:17:45.240 been so supportive of James's concept. But it's been James's 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:49.399 dream really for many years to try to create a 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:57.200 golf course in America that was created and operated along 0:17:57.240 --> 0:18:01.080 the lines of the UK model, which was, yes, they 0:18:01.080 --> 0:18:04.040 have memberships, but it would be open to the you know, 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.440 the public on certain days. And it was very very 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.960 understated and low key. And of course James grew up 0:18:11.000 --> 0:18:14.040 in Scotland and Denmark, so he's been around sheep all 0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.920 his life. So when he got out there and realized 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:22.000 that there was actually sheep herding and going on in 0:18:22.040 --> 0:18:26.040 northern California, he's like, oh, this is this is the 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:30.040 perfect combination. So James is the one really who said, 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.879 I think we should do this. I think we should 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:37.639 sheep should be an integral part of the concept for Brambles, 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.160 and it's it's not a foreign thing that's been brought here. 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:45.160 It's it exists in this area and listen, but let's 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.520 incorporate into the site. And so it's it's pretty neat 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:52.040 to see. And through the whole construction of the course, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.480 we'd be out there wandering around just starting to you know, again, 0:18:56.680 --> 0:19:00.320 do minimal work in terms of earthworks and things on 0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:04.119 the site, but the sheep would be grazing. Literally, we'd 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:07.760 walk through the sheep, you know, along the way going 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:12.000 down the hole. So it is going to be neat. 0:19:12.119 --> 0:19:17.520 And it's the fact that it's it's not a foreign 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:26.240 or one of these idealistic concepts that some marketing person 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:28.720 might think of and say, Oh, wouldn't it be neat 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.800 to have sheep on the golf course. That would be neat. 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.600 Let's get some sheep. That's happened before people said oh, 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.440 let's have some sheep on the golf course. The kyodies 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:41.920 love that idea. They think that's a fabulous idea. Let's 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:45.120 bring some food out onto the golf course. If you're 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:52.200 not prepared to operationally manage the sheep, it's a really 0:19:52.240 --> 0:19:55.720 bad idea, particularly for the sheep. But in this case, 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.719 because there you know, there are sheep herders there and 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.960 there are people who know how to manage those flocks 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.280 and uh, and they're doing that in conjunction with the 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.040 creation of the golf course. So it's it's working. 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:12.680 I think the guy with the hardest job, neither guy, 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.680 the person, or the thing with the hardest job out 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:21.479 there is zeus. Oh yeah, great Pyrenees. My wife has 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.400 like recurring coyote nightmares, and that was the first thing 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:27.239 I thought of when I saw the sheep is like, 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.640 you're surrounded by these mountains and you're like this, this 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.520 is coyote central, this is you know, mountain lion bobcats, Like, 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:38.040 how do you protect the sheep? And they're oh, Zeus, 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:42.840 the one Great Pyrenees. A dog protects eighty sheep or 0:20:42.880 --> 0:20:43.600 something like that. 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.720 Oh yeah, they're way more than eighty out there at times, 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:49.800 and at times there are two of them. There's a 0:20:49.880 --> 0:20:53.200 Zeus has a twin and I don't know the twins name, 0:20:53.359 --> 0:20:57.800 but there I truthfully, I can't tell them apart. But yeah, 0:20:57.840 --> 0:21:02.879 it is. It is interesting to watch. It's in a way, 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:07.720 it's got like going back centuries in time to see 0:21:07.760 --> 0:21:10.080 how that that process happens. 0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.920 I mean, we've been talking about agronomics, and I think 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:16.280 like something that you know, the advances in agronomy that 0:21:16.480 --> 0:21:20.679 can open courses faster, provide playing conditions better, or you know, 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:23.600 quicker better. There's a lot of benefits. But you know, 0:21:23.680 --> 0:21:26.960 one of the things that the sheep at Brambles is 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.399 going to bring is is a real unpredictability. It's going 0:21:30.480 --> 0:21:33.280 to lead to different you know, you're gonna get a 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:35.480 lot of different types of lies. There's gonna be a 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.240 lot of different, you know, conditions throughout the course, Like 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.720 are you excited about having out of play areas be 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:45.800 you know, you don't know what you're gonna get over there, 0:21:46.920 --> 0:21:48.919 not out of play, but on the edges, you know, 0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:51.159 you're not sure really what you're gonna get versus like 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:53.280 I think one of the kind of trends is this 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.920 mono stand of like this is this rough is all 0:21:57.560 --> 0:21:59.920 maintained the same way across the golf course. 0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:04.840 Well, again, this is the old world concept of your 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:08.679 playing golf in nature. We're not playing golf in a 0:22:08.720 --> 0:22:12.800 botanical garden, you know, or a laboratory or a turf 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:20.000 grass nursery. We're playing golf in nature. And in that regard, 0:22:20.040 --> 0:22:26.280 the sheep fit in perfectly there because yes, the more 0:22:27.480 --> 0:22:31.920 centralized parts of the fairways and things, they're very broad fairways, 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:36.040 as you know, but you know the majority of the 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:39.600 area and the fairways will be very good, the turf 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.399 conditions very good, but as you get closer to the edges, 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:46.760 it's going to most likely become less good. And then 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:53.720 as you get off into the manage rough, I guess 0:22:53.720 --> 0:22:57.000 you'd say some of that being mode, some of it 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:00.560 being as you're alluding to mode by the sheep, it 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:06.040 becomes a bit more of a well, you're not sure 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:09.199 what it's going to be. You're certainly not likely to 0:23:09.280 --> 0:23:13.160 lose your ball, but you may have a pretty good line. 0:23:13.280 --> 0:23:15.920 You may just have a horrible lie. And sheep and 0:23:16.000 --> 0:23:19.200 a lot of ways no different than people. They love 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:22.639 to eat, but they don't love to eat everything. So 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:27.760 sheep will you know, Sheep will munch and eat all 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:30.240 the stuff they want, and they'll leave tufts of things 0:23:30.280 --> 0:23:32.840 just sticking up. If they don't, you know, I guess 0:23:32.920 --> 0:23:35.640 they're desperate enough they might eat it. But that's how 0:23:35.680 --> 0:23:38.960 you see that sort of eating down and then a 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:45.600 little tough sticking up here and there. And it's what 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.359 it is. It's the connection to the history of golf. 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:53.000 I mean, golf began, as you know, five hundred plus 0:23:53.080 --> 0:23:56.760 years ago and on the areas that were grazed by sheep. 0:23:57.359 --> 0:24:03.960 So it's brambles in that sense, is a connection through centuries. 0:24:04.880 --> 0:24:07.280 Yeah, I think it brings one of like the really 0:24:07.320 --> 0:24:09.919 neat things with golf is like you know, I always 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:12.040 think of one shot. I always think of with this 0:24:12.160 --> 0:24:15.639 as like the Fisher's Island into the punch bowl over 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:18.560 the blind shot into the punch bowl, and how you 0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:20.720 like feel like you're just like running up over this 0:24:20.840 --> 0:24:23.000 hill to see where your ball is because you don't know. 0:24:23.520 --> 0:24:26.080 And the same thing happens when you hit a shot 0:24:26.240 --> 0:24:28.240 and it's going to an area and you just have 0:24:28.760 --> 0:24:30.880 you have no clue what you're gonna get. You might 0:24:30.880 --> 0:24:33.320 get a perfect lie over there, you might be able 0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:35.119 to hit, you might end up in a great spot, 0:24:35.119 --> 0:24:37.560 but you also might end up and the whole way 0:24:37.640 --> 0:24:39.520 up that that thought in the back of your head 0:24:39.560 --> 0:24:40.520 is gonna be like, how is it? 0:24:40.560 --> 0:24:41.399 How I wonder? 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:42.800 I hope I get a good lie. I hope I 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:45.120 get a good lie. And and then you get there 0:24:45.160 --> 0:24:46.800 and you get to see it. It's like it adds 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:49.080 a layer of suspense when it's not predictable. 0:24:49.520 --> 0:24:49.679 You know. 0:24:49.760 --> 0:24:53.680 The last time we talked, it was a very different time. 0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:57.760 You know, it was before COVID. It was just months 0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:01.560 weeks before COVID kind of hit. Uh, and golf was 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:04.480 in a lot different space. What how how have you 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:05.960 seen the industry? 0:25:06.480 --> 0:25:07.080 Uh? 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:10.760 And just the interest in building new golf courses changed 0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:12.359 over the last two years. 0:25:13.240 --> 0:25:20.359 Oh gee, and it's it's uh. You know, it sounds 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:28.360 so horribly insensitive to say, but as as tragic as 0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:33.199 COVID has been, for so many people around the world, 0:25:33.640 --> 0:25:39.639 it's for golf. How do you say it without just 0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:44.280 sounding horribly insensitive. It's it's been a very positive thing. 0:25:44.800 --> 0:25:50.280 I mean, people have found themselves traveling less, you know, 0:25:50.760 --> 0:25:54.560 even to work, working from home, having perhaps more time 0:25:54.640 --> 0:25:59.240 to spend and going out to their you know, being outside, 0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:02.119 which was you know, the safest place I guess you 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:08.520 could be. And I think in so many cases people 0:26:08.680 --> 0:26:11.160 have started to say, hey, there's a golf course down 0:26:11.200 --> 0:26:13.359 the street here, a little public golf course. I'm going 0:26:13.440 --> 0:26:15.480 to go out there. I played golf years ago. I 0:26:15.480 --> 0:26:17.720 haven't played much. I've been too busy this, that and 0:26:17.800 --> 0:26:20.720 the other. I've got time now I'm working from home. 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:24.200 I can do at different times. And and they they've 0:26:24.240 --> 0:26:28.320 reconnected those who had who had had some connection with golf, 0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:32.359 you know, in their earlier years. And and then for 0:26:32.720 --> 0:26:36.719 other people and just who had never played, just to 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:40.199 be able to be outside and enjoy some sort of activity, 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:44.600 particularly with family and friends, and and and still feel comfortable. 0:26:46.440 --> 0:26:52.120 It's just incredible. The numbers of potential projects of being 0:26:53.080 --> 0:26:58.840 the people are calling about and considering and and uh 0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:04.840 those go they run, you know, across the spectrum, from 0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:10.600 restorations of old courses, remodeling of courses, expansion of courses, 0:27:10.720 --> 0:27:15.960 and still although not nearly as much, but still the 0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:19.560 the interest in creating new golf facilities. 0:27:20.119 --> 0:27:23.000 I was going to ask, how are you know, having 0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:27.200 worked when it was like the heyday, you know, nineties, 0:27:27.680 --> 0:27:32.879 two thousands, how does this period feel similar and how 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:35.360 does it feel different than that period? 0:27:36.960 --> 0:27:40.480 Well, although you obviously, just because of what you just 0:27:40.600 --> 0:27:43.639 asked and we were talking about, you cannot take COVID 0:27:43.720 --> 0:27:47.200 out of the question. But let's set COVID aside, yeah, 0:27:48.640 --> 0:27:52.639 and say, given where we are now in the in 0:27:52.760 --> 0:27:58.800 the the the interest in the expansion of golf is 0:27:58.920 --> 0:28:02.359 so And I'm very prejudiced about this, so I don't 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:05.960 speak for anyone else, not being not anyone else about this, 0:28:06.240 --> 0:28:10.919 just me personally, but I think it's so far and away, 0:28:11.600 --> 0:28:15.920 far and away better and more positive for golf than 0:28:15.960 --> 0:28:22.639 what it was in the eighties, nineties seventies, when my 0:28:22.880 --> 0:28:29.840 perspective was golf was being used for other purposes, most 0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:35.199 often to sell real estate. It was considered amenity for 0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:45.719 real estate in and so sites were almost universally demographically driven. 0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:50.160 Here's a population center, we want to build a development, 0:28:50.720 --> 0:28:54.280 we need golf to help sell it as open space 0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:58.520 and that sort of thing. Not that that was entirely wrong. 0:28:58.720 --> 0:29:02.760 It wasn't. There's some wonderful projects came out of that. 0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:12.080 But today I actually think this research is the boom 0:29:12.120 --> 0:29:16.280 and whatever you want to call it of golf has 0:29:16.320 --> 0:29:20.480 more to do with golf than it does big developments 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:24.240 and other things. Not that those aren't still happening, but 0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:27.840 people really, at least the people we talk to, they 0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:31.160 are really interested in doing golf for the sake of golf, 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:34.520 for people who are who are coming to play golf 0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:38.360 and want to play. And yes, of course they're the 0:29:38.520 --> 0:29:43.239 very high end private, you know, membership type clubs that 0:29:43.280 --> 0:29:47.560 are that are either wanting to expand or or someone 0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:51.920 wants to create that new type membership club. Those exist, 0:29:52.080 --> 0:29:57.600 but so much of the other is just about, Hey, 0:29:57.640 --> 0:30:01.880 people are enjoying golf, let's let's give them products, interesting products. 0:30:02.360 --> 0:30:07.880 And the fact that it's been proven now that people 0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:11.840 are willing to travel. Obviously with COVID that's very restricted, 0:30:12.600 --> 0:30:16.160 but I think the anticipation. The expectation is that people 0:30:16.200 --> 0:30:20.600 will travel to play interesting golf. So you're seeing more 0:30:21.920 --> 0:30:26.560 sites and courses that are very much site driven. They're appealing, 0:30:26.680 --> 0:30:31.080 they're naturally gifted for golf, and they're not being driven. 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:34.560 The sites aren't being driven by the demographics. The sites 0:30:34.600 --> 0:30:37.360 are being driven by the potential for really good golf 0:30:38.120 --> 0:30:40.880 and then the people come. Now, you can't do that 0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:45.040 obviously everywhere, but that's what you're seeing a lot of today, 0:30:45.360 --> 0:30:49.560 and with a huge number of I should say huge, 0:30:49.600 --> 0:30:56.200 but with a significant number of really really talented young designers. 0:30:56.800 --> 0:31:01.040 It seems like it's kind of a I AM opportunity 0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:07.320 for a younger architect to get their break because of 0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:13.320 the interest in redesign new development and you know, some 0:31:13.360 --> 0:31:16.880 contraction in the industry over the tough times of the 0:31:17.080 --> 0:31:20.080 you know, the late two thousands and into the last 0:31:20.120 --> 0:31:22.720 couple of years where there's only a handful of new 0:31:22.760 --> 0:31:23.760 builds every year. 0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:30.920 I think there's again some of the younger men and 0:31:31.040 --> 0:31:34.440 women in this profession may disagree with this, but it 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:37.600 seems to me, at least, there's never been a better 0:31:37.640 --> 0:31:42.640 time to be a young designer because I think there's 0:31:42.680 --> 0:31:49.120 more willingness. Now because of potential owners in clients looking 0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:55.360 at doing courses for the sake of golf, that they're 0:31:55.440 --> 0:31:58.640 more willing I think to step out a little bit 0:31:58.680 --> 0:32:03.520 and say, may not be the biggest name designer or 0:32:03.600 --> 0:32:06.720 the most well known, but I really like what this 0:32:06.800 --> 0:32:10.480 person's doing. I think they have the talent they need. 0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:13.240 I think they'll do something really good here, and that's 0:32:13.240 --> 0:32:16.400 a good thing. Whereas back again, you go back to 0:32:16.440 --> 0:32:21.120 the nineties, let's say or something, it was extremely difficult 0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:27.800 for an unknown design person to get a commission for 0:32:27.880 --> 0:32:32.479 a major project because it was about selling real estate, 0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:38.720 and to sell real estate you need name recognition, and 0:32:38.840 --> 0:32:45.960 so it was. Whereas one potential client who wasn't one 0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:50.000 of ours, but one potential client, and long, long, long ago, 0:32:50.120 --> 0:32:54.040 tell me, he said, Bill, He said, you do really 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:58.160 nice golf courses. He said, but you have to understand 0:32:58.680 --> 0:33:01.000 the profession you're in is not about who can do 0:33:01.040 --> 0:33:05.120 the best golf course. It's about who can do the 0:33:05.160 --> 0:33:10.080 golf course that's the best amenity for real estate. He said, 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:12.440 you have to understand this. You're looking at it in 0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:16.520 the very naive fashion. He was right, I was, but 0:33:16.640 --> 0:33:19.440 that was long ago. In the period you were talking 0:33:19.440 --> 0:33:25.960 about today, it's at least from my perspective, that philosophy 0:33:26.040 --> 0:33:27.520 doesn't hold true. 0:33:27.840 --> 0:33:31.400 I think it's completely shift shifted, you know. I think 0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:35.680 it's the complete opposite. Now, it's I think it's part 0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:37.640 of society. I think a lot of it, you know, 0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:42.400 matches society, and I think that's you know, bearing true 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:47.000 with restaurants and coffee shops and everything, where if you 0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:49.480 make the best product wins. You know, if you have 0:33:49.520 --> 0:33:52.520 the best product, you're gonna you're gonna win. And that's 0:33:52.560 --> 0:33:53.720 a great thing for golf. 0:33:53.880 --> 0:33:57.840 Yeah. Oh, it's absolutely fantastic because in those years again 0:33:57.920 --> 0:34:02.600 that you were you were describing, it was so extraordinary 0:34:02.640 --> 0:34:08.759 difficult to break into the design business because it's one 0:34:08.920 --> 0:34:12.840 another developer told me once, he said, so, Bill, what 0:34:12.880 --> 0:34:15.839 have you done? And I said, well, I did this 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:19.560 is but yeah, but you worked that was on Pete 0:34:19.600 --> 0:34:23.040 Dye projects. What have you done? And then you're sitting 0:34:23.080 --> 0:34:25.080 there and you go, well, well, this would be my 0:34:25.239 --> 0:34:28.080 first you know, you just see the whole thing change 0:34:28.480 --> 0:34:35.239 right there. You tell the Okay. Fortunately, I do think 0:34:35.280 --> 0:34:38.440 there's more opportunity now and I'm so happy to see it. 0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:41.279 I want to talk about a project that I've been 0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:45.160 to a couple times now since since we last talked 0:34:46.400 --> 0:34:52.239 Abandoned Trails. I'm quite spitting about that place. And you know, 0:34:52.560 --> 0:34:56.280 I think it's at the resort. It's got its cult 0:34:56.320 --> 0:34:59.360 following there among a lot of golf courses that are 0:34:59.440 --> 0:35:03.799 right on the and I would love to hear a 0:35:03.840 --> 0:35:09.560 little bit about the constructing the golf course and connecting 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:15.440 those very distinct different areas of the course, the different ecosystems, 0:35:15.480 --> 0:35:19.000 if you would say, you could say the ocean, the 0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:23.360 dunescape ocean holes with the meadow holes, with the forest holes, 0:35:23.800 --> 0:35:29.240 and kind of how you guys creatively weave that journey together. 0:35:31.000 --> 0:35:35.240 Well, Andy, it was abandon Trails began when Mike Kaiser 0:35:35.360 --> 0:35:42.759 called and I remember quite well the conversation telephone conversation. 0:35:42.880 --> 0:35:45.879 He said, Bill, I'm thinking about doing a third golf 0:35:45.920 --> 0:35:48.759 course abandoned Dudes. He said, it will not be on 0:35:48.800 --> 0:35:51.000 the ocean, so you and Ben may not be interested, 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:54.279 he said, but I would just like to have the 0:35:54.320 --> 0:35:58.160 conversation to see if you if you might be, and 0:35:58.960 --> 0:36:01.879 if you are, did you come and take a look 0:36:01.920 --> 0:36:05.880 at the site. And I remember then, Andy, I mean 0:36:08.960 --> 0:36:13.480 just said Mike. Yeah, absolutely, we would love to come sit. 0:36:13.600 --> 0:36:17.879 I've seen Bandon Dunes, I've seen Pacific Dunes. It's just fantastic. 0:36:17.960 --> 0:36:19.680 We'd love to do that. And it's not like the 0:36:19.760 --> 0:36:22.000 site has to be on the ocean. It's not like 0:36:22.080 --> 0:36:23.920 we have to say, oh, we've got to have the 0:36:23.960 --> 0:36:28.839 best site. If we can do something that's that you 0:36:29.080 --> 0:36:32.520 and we and hopefully others will thank complimentary to the 0:36:32.560 --> 0:36:35.920 whole goth experience there, then let's take a look at it. 0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:39.319 And he said, okay, come on, let's go. And so 0:36:39.640 --> 0:36:43.120 went out and did look at the site at that 0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:49.600 particular time, Andy, Mike and Howard McKee, you know McKee's Pub. 0:36:49.719 --> 0:36:53.960 Howard McKee who since passed on, but did all the 0:36:54.040 --> 0:36:57.399 planning and permitting and everything for Bandon Dunes and for Mike, 0:36:57.480 --> 0:37:03.160 and it was a fabulous architect to guy. But they 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:09.000 had thought that abandoned trails would be all east of 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:12.240 the big Dune Ridge back in the forest. 0:37:12.640 --> 0:37:15.560 And that dune ridge is the dune ridge that runs 0:37:15.880 --> 0:37:21.160 through from the hotel really the lodge, all the way across, 0:37:21.360 --> 0:37:24.120 you know, like two at Bandon Dunes plays into it, 0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:28.600 and then eighteen at Pacific Dunes plays along it, and 0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.000 Old mac plays over it on the third hole. So 0:37:32.080 --> 0:37:35.440 that's the dunes ridge, and it'd be east inland of that. 0:37:35.760 --> 0:37:39.640 Yes, the and the You're exactly right, it's the same 0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:42.800 dune ridge. It is to the right of thirteen for example, 0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:46.040 at Pacific Dunes, and then you play over it on 0:37:46.080 --> 0:37:49.520 the second hole. I guess it is at Old McDonald. 0:37:51.640 --> 0:37:54.239 But it it extends down the coast. It's just a 0:37:54.320 --> 0:37:59.680 giant dune ridge there. And so originally Howard and Mike's 0:37:59.680 --> 0:38:02.360 at let's build it back in the forest. It'll be 0:38:02.440 --> 0:38:07.480 more protected from the wind. And I went out there 0:38:07.600 --> 0:38:12.160 with that understanding, and I went back and I wandered 0:38:12.200 --> 0:38:14.200 back there as best you could. It was very hard 0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:16.840 to get through because of the trees and the gorse 0:38:16.880 --> 0:38:21.400 and things. There were trails though, there were both animal 0:38:21.480 --> 0:38:25.120 trails and a couple of hiking trails that went back 0:38:25.200 --> 0:38:31.360 through there, and I would just look at it. I 0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:35.640 went out for a number of days, but each time 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:39.440 I was staying in the lodge, there abandoned dunes and 0:38:39.520 --> 0:38:43.680 I would walk out, and each day I would walk 0:38:43.719 --> 0:38:46.000 out and I looked at the dunes. What's now number 0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:50.160 one and eighteen abandoned trails, and there was a trail 0:38:50.560 --> 0:38:53.120 that I walked on through those dunes, and I walked 0:38:53.160 --> 0:38:56.440 out through what's now number five and number seventeen, the 0:38:56.480 --> 0:39:01.320 two part threes there what we call the meadow area. 0:39:02.480 --> 0:39:05.920 And then I'd walk and get and go around the 0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:09.640 bottom end of the big dune and back into the forest. 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:15.319 And each day andy i'd come back, I go, I 0:39:15.360 --> 0:39:17.319 could see, I guess putting it all over here in 0:39:17.360 --> 0:39:21.480 the forest. And then one day Mike Causer was out 0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:24.200 there an hour and I just remember looking at both 0:39:24.239 --> 0:39:28.640 of them and I go, you know, guys, this is, 0:39:28.719 --> 0:39:34.239 after all called abandoned dunes. What if we start in 0:39:34.400 --> 0:39:39.960 the dunes and work our way to the forest. And 0:39:40.560 --> 0:39:43.239 Mike was going, well, I kind of like that, how 0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:46.160 are you going to do that? Though? And I's go, well, 0:39:46.200 --> 0:39:48.640 I don't know, but it might be interesting that the 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:52.680 more I've walked out, there's three distinctly different environments. Dunes 0:39:53.440 --> 0:39:55.920 again what we call the meadow with the beautiful but 0:39:56.000 --> 0:39:58.720 the beautiful trees and the connect and neck and the 0:39:58.719 --> 0:40:02.520 ground vegetation and sand, and then of course in the 0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:07.000 Pacific Northwest forest. And so I'm not quite sure, but 0:40:07.080 --> 0:40:09.840 I think maybe there could be a way, and Mike said, well, 0:40:09.880 --> 0:40:11.840 how are you going to get over the big the 0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:14.799 big ridge? And I'm not sure about that either, Mike, 0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:16.400 I said, I know, we can go at the bottom 0:40:16.480 --> 0:40:19.120 end of it where it's it's much smaller, which is 0:40:19.160 --> 0:40:21.200 down where six Green is seventy. 0:40:21.719 --> 0:40:24.160 So that was a big lynch panters that you. 0:40:24.120 --> 0:40:26.000 Could get around that way. It's just how you were 0:40:26.040 --> 0:40:29.839 going to get back across. And but the more just 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:32.480 wandered out there and wondered out, and Ben came out 0:40:32.560 --> 0:40:34.880 and we just kind of, you know, we looked at it, 0:40:34.920 --> 0:40:40.840 and it just it just seemed certainly to me, and 0:40:41.040 --> 0:40:43.680 Ben was in agreement about this. It could be interesting 0:40:43.719 --> 0:40:51.000 to tie those three elements environments together, and and Mike 0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:56.719 was so as he's always been so supportive, and even 0:40:56.760 --> 0:40:58.759 though it didn't fit what he was thinking of in 0:40:58.800 --> 0:41:02.440 the beginning, he was open to it. And Howard McKee, 0:41:02.520 --> 0:41:08.439 who had permitted everything there, and Howard was Howard whom 0:41:08.480 --> 0:41:12.640 I just absolutely told one of the most amazing human 0:41:12.680 --> 0:41:15.759 beings I've ever met, and talented people. But I would 0:41:15.800 --> 0:41:18.560 have dinner with Howard quite often, and he go, Bill, 0:41:18.880 --> 0:41:23.520 I don't know, I just don't know, he said, he said. 0:41:23.560 --> 0:41:26.040 First of all, he said, we're getting ready to dedicate 0:41:26.080 --> 0:41:29.279 a lot of this dunes area and to preserve. And 0:41:30.480 --> 0:41:33.799 he said secondly, he said, that area where you go 0:41:33.880 --> 0:41:37.360 through you call the meadow. He said, that may be 0:41:37.560 --> 0:41:43.120 the prettiest property on this entire all abandoned dune's site. 0:41:43.480 --> 0:41:45.759 You know, he said, I just don't know how you're 0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:48.480 going to do golf out there. He goes, but maybe 0:41:48.520 --> 0:41:53.160 you could convince me. And Howard too was open minded. 0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:54.839 And the more we looked at it, and the more 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:57.360 he was tried to piece some holes together in the routing, 0:41:58.840 --> 0:42:02.439 he said, all right, all right. I remember distinctly him 0:42:02.480 --> 0:42:05.600 calling me. They were met me out there where the 0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:08.959 old road used to go in to the main road 0:42:09.000 --> 0:42:12.080 in the abandoned dunes. You hit over now on the 0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:16.520 third T and the eighteenth T. And Howard and Mike 0:42:16.560 --> 0:42:19.399 are both going, you're gonna play over the main entry road. 0:42:20.360 --> 0:42:23.360 Well we did. We've all seen places you do it 0:42:23.400 --> 0:42:27.320 a lot, and they go, okay, that's okay. But Howard 0:42:27.360 --> 0:42:30.520 came out there and then he just said, Bill, you 0:42:30.600 --> 0:42:36.680 have one thousand feet one thousand feet from this road 0:42:36.880 --> 0:42:41.440 towards the ocean. He said, that's it. You can't go 0:42:41.560 --> 0:42:45.440 one inch more. He said, I've talked to the you know, 0:42:45.600 --> 0:42:50.160 all the agencies, the state agencies, the county agencies. We 0:42:50.200 --> 0:42:52.799 can get you that much that strip of dunes which 0:42:52.840 --> 0:42:56.319 is exactly where one and the two and eighteen or 0:42:56.760 --> 0:43:00.680 he said, So you've got that nothing more. And then 0:43:00.719 --> 0:43:02.080 he looked at me and he said, and if you 0:43:02.239 --> 0:43:06.000 mess this up in this meadow out here, I'm just 0:43:06.000 --> 0:43:09.200 gonna kill you. He said, this is my favorite place 0:43:09.239 --> 0:43:13.920 in the entire resort. And I said, Howard, look at this, 0:43:14.480 --> 0:43:17.160 because what's now the fifth hole, the little part three? 0:43:17.600 --> 0:43:19.960 The green was there you were telling earlier about greens. 0:43:20.000 --> 0:43:22.000 It was there, the big trough in the middle of it. 0:43:22.000 --> 0:43:24.760 It just graded it off enough to put some pins 0:43:24.800 --> 0:43:29.200 on it. The green at seventeen was more or less there, 0:43:29.760 --> 0:43:32.960 and all the stuff in between. So it was it 0:43:33.000 --> 0:43:35.480 was like, Howard, we're gonna build two part thre's in 0:43:35.520 --> 0:43:38.080 your meadal here, one going this way, one gone that 0:43:38.200 --> 0:43:41.799 we will do very little disturbance. And he goes, okay. 0:43:43.040 --> 0:43:48.399 So anyway, that's when it linked together. And people say, well, 0:43:48.440 --> 0:43:51.520 where did the name trails come from? It came from 0:43:51.560 --> 0:43:55.799 trails because there were hiking trails out there, particularly through 0:43:56.280 --> 0:43:59.640 the meadow part the dunes and the meadow, but then 0:43:59.680 --> 0:44:02.719 the animal trails over at the Big Dune Ridge and 0:44:02.800 --> 0:44:06.120 back into the east. So I used to literally walk 0:44:06.160 --> 0:44:08.920 around all of those trails. And so when Mike and 0:44:09.320 --> 0:44:11.880 everybody was talking about what what should the name be 0:44:12.280 --> 0:44:15.400 and just go well, there's a lot of trails out there. 0:44:15.800 --> 0:44:18.440 So they said, all right, banda Trails. Yeah. 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:21.759 I think you know, when you hit over the road 0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:25.000 on that third T shot, there's just once you cross 0:44:25.040 --> 0:44:28.400 that road, there's this feel of like it's a departure 0:44:29.160 --> 0:44:31.759 from the place that you're in. And I think that's 0:44:32.080 --> 0:44:35.480 part of what makes it such a you know, it's 0:44:35.840 --> 0:44:40.520 such an endearing golf course because you're at this place 0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:42.920 and it's a resort. It's a resort. Like I think, 0:44:43.640 --> 0:44:46.560 like you're at this resort, you're you know, and it's 0:44:46.719 --> 0:44:49.239 it's you're part of this society at this resort, and 0:44:49.280 --> 0:44:52.040 when you play trails, you just feel like you get away. 0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:55.640 It's interesting, Andy, right, the exact spots you're talking about. 0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:58.719 The T shot on number three is one of my 0:44:59.040 --> 0:45:05.000 favorite personal stories with Mike Kaiser because we used to 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:08.320 walk out and we would the holes had been staked, 0:45:09.520 --> 0:45:14.040 and we would walk the first hole. Mike could be 0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:17.279 all excited. The second hole in the dunes, he'd be 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:21.040 all excited. We'd get to where the third tea is 0:45:21.239 --> 0:45:23.759 right there by the second green, and of course we're 0:45:23.760 --> 0:45:28.400 looking at a forest of trees and the road, and 0:45:28.560 --> 0:45:30.960 Mike would always look to the ocean, you know where 0:45:31.000 --> 0:45:34.479 the big dunes aren't there? He goes, He'd stand there, going, Bill, 0:45:36.200 --> 0:45:39.080 why on earth would we go that way? Meaning the 0:45:39.080 --> 0:45:42.319 way the whole The third o goes, Why wouldn't we 0:45:42.360 --> 0:45:47.120 go that way toward the ocean? And I remember looking anything, Mike, 0:45:47.719 --> 0:45:51.160 I've been that way. The dues are giant, and the 0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:55.440 wind blows really hard. I said, we could deal with that, probably, 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:57.919 I said, but the primary reason we're not going that way. 0:45:58.640 --> 0:46:04.920 You don't own that property. It's the state land. And 0:46:05.080 --> 0:46:10.279 he goes, oh, he owned so much as he didn't 0:46:10.280 --> 0:46:12.240 know where to and I didn't know where the property 0:46:12.239 --> 0:46:14.520 boundary was until it was pointed out to me. But 0:46:14.960 --> 0:46:18.040 I said, we're going this way. He goes, why on 0:46:18.200 --> 0:46:21.120 earth would I want to go that way? So the 0:46:21.200 --> 0:46:26.000 third hole, the third hole was cleared and the guys 0:46:26.080 --> 0:46:29.360 worked on it, David's zinc In whom you've met. David 0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:32.640 did most of the work on the third hole, and 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:35.880 other guys did too, but David did so much of 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:38.879 that hole and once it was all roughed in, and 0:46:39.080 --> 0:46:41.680 of course once it was grown in and you're now playing. 0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:47.000 I have yet to ever play or walk that golf 0:46:47.040 --> 0:46:49.560 course with Mike Kaiser that we didn't go one to 0:46:49.960 --> 0:46:52.080 We get to the third t and he would look 0:46:52.120 --> 0:46:54.880 at me and he'd smile and go, why on earth 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:57.200 would I want to go this way? And it's one 0:46:57.280 --> 0:46:59.480 I think it's truly one of his favorite holes. 0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:02.680 Yeah, I you know, when I think about that golf course, 0:47:02.760 --> 0:47:05.759 the first thing I always think about is those metal holes. 0:47:06.160 --> 0:47:08.719 I really like hiking, and it reminds me of I 0:47:08.800 --> 0:47:10.560 think that's one of the things that I have such 0:47:10.560 --> 0:47:13.120 an affinity for the course because it feels like you're 0:47:13.120 --> 0:47:15.400 going on hike, like you go on a hike for 0:47:15.440 --> 0:47:17.520 the journey and the different things that you see along 0:47:17.560 --> 0:47:20.680 the way and the different you know, vistas, but also 0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.520 the different landscapes that you go through. The most interesting 0:47:23.600 --> 0:47:25.880 hike that I can ever remember is up in the 0:47:25.880 --> 0:47:29.600 northern Michigan and you walk through this Northern Michigan forest 0:47:29.680 --> 0:47:32.120 and then you get out and it's down Lake Superior, 0:47:32.160 --> 0:47:34.040 and you get out and it's like you're on a 0:47:34.120 --> 0:47:38.000 Caribbean beach after three miles and you get out to 0:47:38.080 --> 0:47:41.319 this wonderful place and you sit there for a while 0:47:41.320 --> 0:47:44.000 and then you hike back. But it's about the places 0:47:44.040 --> 0:47:45.960 you go and you see and pass and then you 0:47:46.000 --> 0:47:47.919 come back eventually to the starting point. 0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:52.040 As we were talking about earlier about routing golf courses, 0:47:52.440 --> 0:47:56.160 that's the way we perceive routing that a golf course 0:47:56.160 --> 0:47:58.839 should be. How do you how would you lay out 0:47:58.840 --> 0:48:00.640 a course in such a way that if you were 0:48:00.719 --> 0:48:04.759 going out there to hike or go for just a 0:48:05.880 --> 0:48:09.239 morning walk or something, how would you want to walk 0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:12.839 that property? If to see the most interesting elements of 0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:18.640 that property and it be invigorating, but not like so 0:48:18.960 --> 0:48:22.480 taxing that you just it's not fun, you know, And 0:48:22.880 --> 0:48:24.560 so how would you do it? So we kind of 0:48:24.600 --> 0:48:26.600 look at how you lay out of golf courses. How 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:28.640 would I if I weren't playing golf and I just 0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:31.040 came out to walk around, where would I want to go? 0:48:31.520 --> 0:48:34.160 And how would I do it? And you you know, 0:48:34.719 --> 0:48:36.800 sure times you want to go up on the hills 0:48:36.840 --> 0:48:39.319 and look out over things. But you don't want to 0:48:39.320 --> 0:48:43.040 do it time after time after time. So you know 0:48:43.120 --> 0:48:45.600 you do, but you want to just travel around the property. 0:48:46.080 --> 0:48:48.040 And in our case, we're trying to get you to 0:48:48.080 --> 0:48:54.000 walk around the property, see interesting things, beautiful things, and oh, 0:48:54.120 --> 0:48:55.319 by the way, you're playing golf. 0:48:57.000 --> 0:49:00.160 And of course I revisited uh recently. I hadn't been 0:49:00.239 --> 0:49:03.319 there criminally. It's not far away from where I live, 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:08.279 and I had I played a junior tournament in the 0:49:08.320 --> 0:49:12.040 early two thousands at Warren Golf Course and I hadn't 0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:16.040 been back since. And I distinctly remembered holes because I 0:49:16.080 --> 0:49:20.440 remember as a as a sixteen seventeen year old kid, 0:49:20.520 --> 0:49:24.400 I'd never seen greens quite like you know, some of 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:26.359 the greens out there. I remember the short part three 0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:30.200 what was it, the fourth or fifth hole, and you know, 0:49:30.360 --> 0:49:33.279 I just that was my vivid memory as a kid. 0:49:33.280 --> 0:49:36.440 And you know, I went back and I you know, 0:49:37.680 --> 0:49:42.239 I'm how much is maintenance over time? And then you know, 0:49:42.320 --> 0:49:45.279 do you think, like you know, I walked away. You 0:49:45.320 --> 0:49:47.520 know some of those greens out there are some of it. 0:49:47.640 --> 0:49:51.399 I feel like some of your most eccentric greens. How 0:49:51.520 --> 0:49:55.600 is your you know, the greens shifted as your career 0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:59.439 has progressed, you know, and you know, was that more 0:49:59.480 --> 0:50:02.520 of a gen rating interest on a less you know? 0:50:03.400 --> 0:50:06.320 You know, you know, we just talked about abandoned trails. 0:50:06.480 --> 0:50:09.120 Is you know the greens out there to be I 0:50:09.560 --> 0:50:12.319 love wild greens. So I was out there and I 0:50:12.360 --> 0:50:13.920 was like, God, I should be coming out here at 0:50:13.960 --> 0:50:14.959 least once every year. 0:50:16.160 --> 0:50:19.200 Well, I think, yeah, if you have a site, for instance, 0:50:19.239 --> 0:50:22.320 a Notre Dame there, it's a worn course, it's basically 0:50:22.360 --> 0:50:25.640 a flat site. It's got a couple you know, spots 0:50:26.000 --> 0:50:28.200 back there that go up and down the hills. But 0:50:29.800 --> 0:50:32.840 it was it was well and it was a dumping 0:50:32.840 --> 0:50:35.600 ground for the university to be perfectly canted. It was 0:50:35.680 --> 0:50:38.440 full of junk back there. It was in the trees, 0:50:38.600 --> 0:50:42.640 but there was there were automobiles, scoreboards, it was. It 0:50:42.680 --> 0:50:46.480 was just a mass back there. And so once they 0:50:46.920 --> 0:50:50.200 cleaned all that up and then they you know, we 0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:56.319 cleared the trees. But it's just it's not very compelling 0:50:56.520 --> 0:50:59.560 site in the sense of the landforms, although you do 0:50:59.600 --> 0:51:02.200 have some things to work with. In Judey Creek it 0:51:02.239 --> 0:51:05.839 goes through it's really pretty, but we just felt like 0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:09.239 the interest here is going to be more on the greens. 0:51:09.960 --> 0:51:14.920 And to your point, if the site's more subtle or 0:51:16.120 --> 0:51:20.719 the landforms are not so dramatic, then we try to 0:51:20.760 --> 0:51:25.680 make the golf interest, you know, particularly leading into and 0:51:25.719 --> 0:51:28.480 around and on the greens on the putting service. If 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:31.920 you have a site that's very dramatic in the landforms 0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:35.799 for the big parts of the golf course, we try 0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:39.920 to tone down the greens. So and for example the 0:51:39.960 --> 0:51:43.680 sand tills, let's say, because of all the natural contours 0:51:43.680 --> 0:51:47.800 in the fairways and particularly because of the wind element, 0:51:48.400 --> 0:51:51.040 we just knew we've got to be pretty subtle with 0:51:51.160 --> 0:51:53.839 these greens. If we go build wild greens here, it's 0:51:53.840 --> 0:51:56.279 going to be unplayable, it will not be any fun. 0:51:57.120 --> 0:52:02.719 And so that was toning down green to be hopefully 0:52:02.760 --> 0:52:06.200 a bit of a balance with all the wild contours 0:52:06.239 --> 0:52:09.280 in the fairways Notre Dame a little bit to reverse. 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:13.239 Not much wild stuff in the fairways, so a little more. 0:52:13.320 --> 0:52:20.160 Although it's not not hugely unnulating grains by any means, 0:52:20.200 --> 0:52:21.600 but they are quite intricate. 0:52:21.840 --> 0:52:26.920 Yeah, they're super cool. I really liked that golf course. 0:52:27.040 --> 0:52:29.880 One of the best, one of the very best values 0:52:29.920 --> 0:52:32.520 in all of golf. I mean, I think it was 0:52:33.000 --> 0:52:36.040 sixty or fifty bucks an hour and a half drive 0:52:36.040 --> 0:52:39.840 from Chicago. And anybody in Chicago, whether you're a member 0:52:39.840 --> 0:52:43.359 at Chicago Golf Club or Short Acres, whether you're you know, 0:52:43.440 --> 0:52:46.960 whether you play public golf at you know, Ravslow or 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:50.200 the city courses. It's worth getting in your car in 0:52:50.320 --> 0:52:52.839 summer when the students aren't around and going out there 0:52:52.920 --> 0:52:55.360 because you get great hours with it on the East 0:52:55.360 --> 0:52:59.520 Coast or Eastern time zone, it stays light really late, 0:52:59.560 --> 0:53:02.840 and go out there and play. It's worth a stop. 0:53:03.200 --> 0:53:06.720 It's While you're on that subject, though about the Warne 0:53:06.800 --> 0:53:11.160 course in Notre Dame. Back to our earlier conversation about 0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:14.640 seeing a golf course evolved in a very positive fashion. 0:53:15.560 --> 0:53:20.880 Notre Dame may be the most extreme example of that 0:53:21.320 --> 0:53:25.600 of any course that we've done. When it was first done, 0:53:25.640 --> 0:53:29.840 it was very rough, very rough. And then when the 0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:32.480 decision was made to put golf carts out there when 0:53:32.480 --> 0:53:34.680 there were no card pass at the time, after it 0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:38.480 opened it got even more rough, and so it had 0:53:38.520 --> 0:53:43.879 its it had its growing pains at the beginning. And 0:53:43.960 --> 0:53:47.760 yet what numerous people who have been there, who've worked 0:53:47.800 --> 0:53:52.200 on it have done, but particularly a guy named Matt 0:53:52.320 --> 0:53:57.160 Sealin who was a superintendent there. He just he just 0:53:57.360 --> 0:54:01.359 left there this past year. But Matt Sealand was there, 0:54:01.360 --> 0:54:05.399 I guess for a dozen or more years. He took 0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:10.360 that thing beyond anything we could have hoped for. He 0:54:10.600 --> 0:54:14.000 made it better and better and better and better, and 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:17.919 he did it with a very very small crew, very 0:54:18.000 --> 0:54:22.799 limited budget, and for public golf. And it was just 0:54:23.040 --> 0:54:26.640 fascinating to see John Foster, who's the golf director there 0:54:26.680 --> 0:54:31.200 for so many years. He just recently retired to But 0:54:32.719 --> 0:54:38.040 what they did is so maybe the best example at 0:54:38.080 --> 0:54:42.280 any place that we've worked of how it's the people 0:54:42.320 --> 0:54:46.440 who care for it can sew can more influence it, 0:54:46.719 --> 0:54:50.279 even more so than some of these places that have 0:54:50.800 --> 0:54:55.359 that have progressed steadily in a positive fashion, like Old 0:54:55.400 --> 0:54:58.279 Sandwich or Friar's Hit or stream Song or all these 0:54:58.320 --> 0:55:03.040 places that, but Notre Dame. It went from a real 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:08.960 struggle to a to something really special because of people 0:55:09.040 --> 0:55:13.040 like John Foster and Matt Sealing. And when the USGA 0:55:13.280 --> 0:55:17.440 was there, when they played the US Senior Open, they 0:55:17.520 --> 0:55:19.000 just thought it was fabulous. 0:55:19.320 --> 0:55:22.200 Last question here before we get you out of here. 0:55:23.239 --> 0:55:27.040 I'm curious. You know, something that always interests me about 0:55:27.239 --> 0:55:32.200 about your profession is, you know, people people retire and stuff. 0:55:32.239 --> 0:55:37.680 I what, after all you've accomplished, what keeps you really 0:55:37.719 --> 0:55:38.799 interested in the job? 0:55:40.239 --> 0:55:43.960 Oh? God, man? And I mean to me may be 0:55:44.000 --> 0:55:49.560 the easiest question of any it's it's uh, if you 0:55:49.600 --> 0:55:53.000 have a dream when you're a kid, and one day 0:55:53.000 --> 0:55:57.440 you wake up and it's it's real, It's actually happening 0:55:58.000 --> 0:56:01.880 and has happened. I mean, do you want the dream band? 0:56:02.440 --> 0:56:06.760 It's it's yeah, it's a business, of course, it's a business. 0:56:06.800 --> 0:56:11.239 But oh lord, I just love it. I just love it. 0:56:11.280 --> 0:56:16.239 And it's as long as you know, as long as 0:56:16.280 --> 0:56:20.799 people are interested in their involvement and their their projects, 0:56:20.840 --> 0:56:23.319 as long as I don't think that's going anywhere, you know, 0:56:23.880 --> 0:56:28.439 as long as the guys that work with us are 0:56:28.480 --> 0:56:32.399 willing to go again for another year or two. As 0:56:32.480 --> 0:56:34.879 long as you know, as long as been and our 0:56:35.280 --> 0:56:39.000 physically you know able to do it. I just I 0:56:39.040 --> 0:56:44.279 love nothing more probably than just walking like you're talking 0:56:44.280 --> 0:56:47.520 about hike, walking out on the property and trying to 0:56:47.719 --> 0:56:52.080 envision golf and how a course might come to life 0:56:52.160 --> 0:56:56.239 there and then and then obviously own through that process, 0:56:56.400 --> 0:57:01.960 and so yeah, I don't know. I mean I remember 0:57:02.320 --> 0:57:05.120 talking to Ben just very recently and I said, Ben, 0:57:06.239 --> 0:57:09.719 I said, you know, I guess the train is kind 0:57:09.760 --> 0:57:12.800 of pulling into the station, but I think there's still 0:57:12.880 --> 0:57:15.280 I hope there's still some track down the way before 0:57:15.320 --> 0:57:18.280 we kind of come to a complete hall put again. 0:57:18.400 --> 0:57:23.000 I mean, people think I make this stuff up, I guess, 0:57:23.040 --> 0:57:27.720 but it's it's absolutely true, Andy. I mean, I can 0:57:27.720 --> 0:57:30.560 see it right now and pinch myself because I I 0:57:30.640 --> 0:57:35.160 could be going, really, is this really happening? Did this happen? 0:57:35.960 --> 0:57:39.560 And I go, I'm not sure this is real? And 0:57:40.680 --> 0:57:42.840 so if I'm in the midst of the dream or 0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:47.000 a dream, I'm hoping it continues for a bit. Yeah. 0:57:47.240 --> 0:57:50.520 Doing what you love is it makes it not feel 0:57:50.600 --> 0:57:53.960 like work. So all right, thank you so much. 0:57:54.000 --> 0:57:54.440 I get it. 0:57:54.600 --> 0:57:58.280 Always always such a fun time talking. And and we'll 0:57:58.920 --> 0:58:01.600 we'll see you hopefully down the road sooner than later, 0:58:02.000 --> 0:58:04.400 sooner than the last time we saw you. 0:58:05.240 --> 0:58:08.560 Well, let's hope, so Andy, let's hope for good times 0:58:08.560 --> 0:58:11.720 ahead and hopefully our pazz will cross. 0:58:22.560 --> 0:58:26.480 Thank you for listening to another edition of the Friday Podcast. 0:58:26.960 --> 0:58:30.440 A big thanks to Meg Atkins who edited the podcast, 0:58:30.480 --> 0:58:32.640 as well as Garrett Morrison who did some work on 0:58:32.680 --> 0:58:35.640 the audio as well as a quick reminder, we have 0:58:36.200 --> 0:58:39.840 a new event releasing next week. It's The Banker, which 0:58:39.880 --> 0:58:44.040 will be hosted at Perry Maxwell's first design, his home course, 0:58:44.320 --> 0:58:48.040 Dornic Hills. This golf course was restored last year by 0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:52.520 Tom Doak and Renaissance Golf Design. They brought back a 0:58:52.560 --> 0:58:54.920 lot of the features that were missing, some of the 0:58:54.960 --> 0:58:59.560 Maxwell greens, and you know it is an exceptional place 0:58:59.560 --> 0:59:02.560 to play golf. It is in Oklahoma. It is only 0:59:02.560 --> 0:59:04.680 an hour and a half from the Dallas airport though, 0:59:04.880 --> 0:59:07.400 so it's an easy place to get to Dallas and 0:59:07.480 --> 0:59:10.400 Oklahoma City hour and a half from each of those airports, 0:59:10.560 --> 0:59:14.280 and a really neat spot that you should want to see. 0:59:14.760 --> 0:59:18.840 Obviously important design in the history of golf architecture, and 0:59:19.480 --> 0:59:22.640 of course that has got a fresh look, fresh restoration 0:59:23.040 --> 0:59:25.640 from Tom dok and runs down his golf design that 0:59:25.760 --> 0:59:30.840 comes out next Monday, February seventh. So thank you very much, 0:59:31.040 --> 0:59:34.959 and we'll see you later this week with another edition 0:59:35.040 --> 0:59:37.680 of the Friday Podcast that will center on what you 0:59:37.720 --> 0:59:39.200 need to know about Perry Maxwell.