1
00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,920
Speaker 1: What does recovery look like when it's not designed for you?

2
00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,879
Speaker 1: I'm doctor and Zanga Harrison, and in season four of

3
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,480
Speaker 1: Unaddictioned podcast, we're featuring black and brown guests sharing their

4
00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,000
Speaker 1: journeys through the unique barriers to recovery shaped by their identities.

5
00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:22,040
Speaker 1: These guests have not only defined recovery on their terms,

6
00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 1: but they're also creating pathways and communities that can help

7
00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 1: you or a loved one find recovery too. This week,

8
00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,840
Speaker 1: we're airing an interview between myself and Casey Maguire Davidson,

9
00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,000
Speaker 1: host of Hello Someday, a podcast for sober curious women.

10
00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,360
Speaker 1: I break down the learned and inherited risk factors that

11
00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,440
Speaker 1: can lead to addiction, scripts for talking about substance use,

12
00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 1: and important definitions that impact the stigma that people with

13
00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,840
Speaker 1: substance use disorders face. I hope you enjoy this conversation

14
00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 1: and if you're a sober curious woman, definitely go check

15
00:00:58,600 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 1: out Casey's podcast.

16
00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,280
Speaker 2: I also previously talked to in Zinga in episode one

17
00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:08,240
Speaker 2: hundred and thirty three. It was an amazing conversation about

18
00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,080
Speaker 2: how what you need to know about the risk factors

19
00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,000
Speaker 2: for alcohol use disorder and We're going to take that

20
00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:18,800
Speaker 2: conversation further today and so much more. If you're listening

21
00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:22,320
Speaker 2: to this podcast, I know you love podcast. So In

22
00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:26,560
Speaker 2: Zinga also has a podcast called an Addiction that I

23
00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,560
Speaker 2: will ask her all about. But in the meantime, welcome.

24
00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:30,880
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you're here again.

25
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:32,800
Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

26
00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,319
Speaker 1: And I can't believe that was episode one hundred and

27
00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:37,520
Speaker 1: thirty three, Like, how many since then?

28
00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 3: Right?

29
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I am around two hundred and you

30
00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 2: know by the it'll be around two hundred and thirty

31
00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:46,119
Speaker 2: three by the time it goes live.

32
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:47,360
Speaker 3: So incredible.

33
00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,240
Speaker 2: I know, it's been crazy. It's been over four years now.

34
00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:53,960
Speaker 3: Wow, I love it so much. That's so cool.

35
00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I do too, It's like my favorite part of

36
00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:01,320
Speaker 2: the job. Well, so, I this book. I was telling you,

37
00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 2: I've been reading through it and I've got all the

38
00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,760
Speaker 2: notes on it and just to start, tell me about

39
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 2: why you wrote this book.

40
00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you mentioned that I've been practicing medicine for

41
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,680
Speaker 1: twenty years and I have always been an addiction psychiatrist.

42
00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:21,160
Speaker 3: Like my passion is people who.

43
00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,920
Speaker 1: Are drinking or using other drugs or substances in a

44
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,600
Speaker 1: way that they're questioning is this how I want to

45
00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:30,400
Speaker 1: be using this or do I think this is helping

46
00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,680
Speaker 1: me the way it used to type of thing and

47
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:38,320
Speaker 1: really kind of like being a supportive, empowering doc to

48
00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,280
Speaker 1: help people define what they want out of their lives

49
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,120
Speaker 1: and you know, mark out a pathway for how to

50
00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:48,280
Speaker 1: get there. And so I had a previous podcast, thank

51
00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 1: You for Mentioning un Addictioned, which is the current podcast.

52
00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:53,600
Speaker 3: It was called in Recovery with Doctor.

53
00:02:53,280 --> 00:02:57,360
Speaker 1: Harrison and Jen Keene was a listener and she reached

54
00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,440
Speaker 1: out through my website and was like, I'm sure you

55
00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,079
Speaker 1: already have a book agent, but if not, can we chat?

56
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,040
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, why would you be sure

57
00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 1: I have a book agent because I'm never, ever, ever,

58
00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:08,359
Speaker 1: ever going to write a book.

59
00:03:09,800 --> 00:03:12,600
Speaker 3: And then it's clear who won who won that argument?

60
00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:16,760
Speaker 1: Right two years later, Jen was like, you're obviously passionate

61
00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:22,000
Speaker 1: about people with addiction or people who wonder if they

62
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,240
Speaker 1: have it or don't. You know, we don't have to

63
00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,080
Speaker 1: use the word addiction, just like want a different way.

64
00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:31,959
Speaker 1: And she was like, this will get your message out,

65
00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:33,800
Speaker 1: and that's all she had to say and the rest

66
00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:34,320
Speaker 1: is history.

67
00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:39,520
Speaker 2: Oh that's fantastic. So getting the message out That's something

68
00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,560
Speaker 2: that I'm really passionate about too, and I love talking

69
00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 2: to people like you who are experts about it. So

70
00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,760
Speaker 2: much to go through in this book, But one of

71
00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,720
Speaker 2: the first things that I think will surprise people listening

72
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,480
Speaker 2: to this podcast but everyone else as well as you

73
00:03:55,560 --> 00:04:00,080
Speaker 2: talk about the seventy five percent success rate in the

74
00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,800
Speaker 2: context of the impact of long term treatment options for addiction,

75
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:06,280
Speaker 2: Can you tell me about that.

76
00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:10,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I'll start with the name of the book

77
00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,920
Speaker 1: is a word that we made up on addiction, and

78
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,080
Speaker 1: kind of how we came up with it was like, Okay,

79
00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:19,040
Speaker 1: what are the things we need.

80
00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:21,960
Speaker 3: To unlearn that we think we know about addiction?

81
00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 1: That is like actually one wrong to not helpful? Two,

82
00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:30,120
Speaker 1: what are the things what are the stigma that we

83
00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,440
Speaker 1: need to undo that's like keeping people from getting support

84
00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:36,920
Speaker 1: or keeping people from getting better. And then number three,

85
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 1: what are the conversations we need to uncover? And that's

86
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,400
Speaker 1: like the tagline for the book, six mind changing conversations

87
00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:47,200
Speaker 1: that could save a life. And so the first thing

88
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 1: we have to unlearn is that people don't recover. Yes, right,

89
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,880
Speaker 1: Seventy five percent of people who have struggled with a

90
00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:04,360
Speaker 1: substance in whatever way consider themselves recovered or in recovery.

91
00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 3: That is three out of four.

92
00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is more than one out of four, and

93
00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,200
Speaker 1: one out of four is very important because you know,

94
00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:15,520
Speaker 1: one out of four is still too high. And if

95
00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 1: we can unlearn other things that we need to unlearn

96
00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,360
Speaker 1: and undo stigma and talk about it, we could get

97
00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,799
Speaker 1: that one to four even lower. But the medical literature

98
00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:29,280
Speaker 1: tells us for any condition that we're dealing with, when

99
00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 1: you believe there is a chance for you to recover,

100
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,560
Speaker 1: there is a better chance for you to recover. And

101
00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:40,640
Speaker 1: so we can't only talk about devastation and people who

102
00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 1: are dying and the people that don't recover, we have

103
00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,600
Speaker 1: to talk about them, but we cannot only talk about them.

104
00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:53,480
Speaker 1: Can we start from a place of hope and possibility? Yeah,

105
00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,680
Speaker 1: then figure out how we get there for some balloons

106
00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:57,520
Speaker 1: for more people.

107
00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that so much because because a couple

108
00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,279
Speaker 2: thoughts I had when you were talking about this. I

109
00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:07,640
Speaker 2: remember being back in my office in my corporate job,

110
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:12,480
Speaker 2: and one of my friends, who by the way, I

111
00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,279
Speaker 2: loved wine as much as I did. You know, whatever

112
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 2: it was, was like hungover on Monday after some Bunco

113
00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,359
Speaker 2: game with her girlfriends was talking to me about the

114
00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:25,000
Speaker 2: fact I don't drink, and it kind of cracked me up.

115
00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:29,360
Speaker 2: She was like, yeah, but you decided to stop. You

116
00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:32,839
Speaker 2: didn't have a problem with alcohol. Actually, I think she

117
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,680
Speaker 2: put it in the present tense. She was like, you

118
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:39,560
Speaker 2: don't have a problem with alcohol. And that cracked me

119
00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,800
Speaker 2: up in a few ways. One because why was it

120
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,120
Speaker 2: so important to her to make sure I was in

121
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,920
Speaker 2: ex category versus why category? And be what I said

122
00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,480
Speaker 2: to her, I was like, well, yes, I chose to stop,

123
00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:57,159
Speaker 2: but alcohol is addictive, and you know it is designed

124
00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:00,560
Speaker 2: to take you down the path and becoming more on it.

125
00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: But be in my mind, I'm eight and a half

126
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,320
Speaker 2: year sober now, I was like four years sober at

127
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,640
Speaker 2: the time. I was like, I haven't had a drink

128
00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,320
Speaker 2: it four years. I am zero problem with alcohol. And

129
00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,400
Speaker 2: Craig Ferguson at one point said like, I didn't get

130
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 2: one really quick, right. But what I loved about that

131
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,480
Speaker 2: is in my mind, I'm like, you were hungover on Lunday.

132
00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:25,880
Speaker 2: I haven't had a thing to drink in X number

133
00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 2: of years. Like it cracks me up that you're like, oh,

134
00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,200
Speaker 2: but you don't have a prom Like as if if

135
00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,440
Speaker 2: I had, it would be a lifelong thing. Anyway. I

136
00:07:37,520 --> 00:07:40,440
Speaker 2: just I thought that was interesting because now I haven't

137
00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:41,920
Speaker 2: had a drink at eight and a half years, and

138
00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:46,240
Speaker 2: I don't consider myself to be struggling with alcohol at all.

139
00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:47,960
Speaker 2: I just don't touch that.

140
00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 1: That's right, No, you know, I think it's it's this

141
00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,680
Speaker 1: this human phenomenon of needing to protect ourselves from the scary.

142
00:07:56,360 --> 00:08:01,280
Speaker 1: So you are colleagues working in the same job, coming

143
00:08:01,320 --> 00:08:04,480
Speaker 1: in on Monday morning, kind of with a life that

144
00:08:04,640 --> 00:08:08,320
Speaker 1: is similar in that way, and so it's probably very

145
00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:12,120
Speaker 1: scary for her to see you as a person who

146
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:16,720
Speaker 1: had a problem with alcohol, because maybe that means I

147
00:08:16,760 --> 00:08:20,800
Speaker 1: could also have a problem with alcohol. And this is

148
00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:25,680
Speaker 1: getting to like undoing the stigma. Yeah, I think the

149
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,360
Speaker 1: concept that we have of people that quote have a

150
00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:35,920
Speaker 1: problem with alcohol is homeless, drinking out of a paper bag,

151
00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 1: has lost everything, is begging for money on the street.

152
00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:44,640
Speaker 1: And if you think about the whole spectrum of what

153
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,760
Speaker 1: quote a problem with alcohol means, it goes all the

154
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,120
Speaker 1: way from when I have a glass of wine, I

155
00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:57,960
Speaker 1: wake up with a migraine, but I keep having a

156
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,320
Speaker 1: glass of wine all the way to that very severe

157
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,479
Speaker 1: that I just described, but we've made it so scary

158
00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:10,240
Speaker 1: and so dangerous to say out loud, like I don't

159
00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,760
Speaker 1: think alcohol is doing for me what I wanted to

160
00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 1: be doing. So I'm gonna stop, Like, can we just

161
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,480
Speaker 1: make that easy? Yeah, I don't drink alcohol, that's awesome,

162
00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:22,120
Speaker 1: what's next? Yeah, but it's like, oh, you don't drink alcohol.

163
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,440
Speaker 2: Yes, there must be summer And I want to be

164
00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:31,119
Speaker 2: like back in the day when I was fully immersed

165
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,120
Speaker 2: in like wine culture and very you know, all of

166
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:37,679
Speaker 2: my friends drank and everything else. I seriously believed that

167
00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:42,880
Speaker 2: the only people who didn't drink were like pregnant, yeah,

168
00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:48,160
Speaker 2: had an issue with addiction, aka like they can't drink

169
00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,160
Speaker 2: or were super bored. And now it cracks up because like,

170
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,199
Speaker 2: I know so many people who don't drink who are incredible.

171
00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,560
Speaker 2: But it is interesting to me. The other thing I

172
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,200
Speaker 2: loved that you wrote and I wanted to ask you

173
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,600
Speaker 2: about is so we have this seventy five percent success

174
00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 2: rate in terms of the context of long term treatment

175
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,520
Speaker 2: for addiction and recovery, and I want to dive into

176
00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 2: like all every single word and piece it apart. But

177
00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,680
Speaker 2: those are people who have sought treatment and help and

178
00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:28,760
Speaker 2: support for addiction. Now, there are so many people in

179
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,199
Speaker 2: this world, including women who contact me every day and

180
00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:36,360
Speaker 2: they're already on the path to getting support and resources,

181
00:10:36,840 --> 00:10:41,280
Speaker 2: but who really struggle with this every day and don't

182
00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,520
Speaker 2: seek support, probably because they see it as this futile

183
00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,240
Speaker 2: I'll never stop anyway, what's the point? My life will

184
00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,960
Speaker 2: be over, it won't work. But also it is positioned

185
00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:58,440
Speaker 2: as this life sentence of deprivation and isolation, and you

186
00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 2: know their ness from everyone they know. So I wish

187
00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:09,240
Speaker 2: that more people who struggled with addiction, drinking, whatever it

188
00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 2: is would seek treatment. Because of seventy five percent recover,

189
00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,280
Speaker 2: that's pretty fucking awesome, right, I mean, you don't have

190
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:18,640
Speaker 2: to feel that way anymore.

191
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,720
Speaker 1: So true, so true, And these are the conversations that

192
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,480
Speaker 1: we have on the Unaddictioned podcast, Like what was the

193
00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:30,840
Speaker 1: scariest thing for you about thinking about stopping or changing?

194
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:31,200
Speaker 2: Right?

195
00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 1: Because I think that's also important is that the definition

196
00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:37,400
Speaker 1: of recovery is not abstinence for everyone. For some people

197
00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:40,360
Speaker 1: the definition is for apps is abstinence. For other people

198
00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:42,480
Speaker 1: the definition is different.

199
00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,360
Speaker 3: But like, what was what was the scariest thing?

200
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 1: And what I hear over and over is like, I

201
00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,040
Speaker 1: had no idea how was going to have fun if

202
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,199
Speaker 1: I stopped using Excellent. I had no idea how was

203
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:58,240
Speaker 1: gonna socialize at work when that happens at happy hour

204
00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 1: in a bar, No idea how it was going to

205
00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:06,080
Speaker 1: go on a girl's trip with my friends and not drink, right, Like,

206
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:10,160
Speaker 1: it is those things that are very, very very important

207
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,720
Speaker 1: to us, and culturally, at least here in the US,

208
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,680
Speaker 1: definitely other countries as well. We see alcohol as a connector,

209
00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:20,520
Speaker 1: and other drugs also act as a connector for people.

210
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 1: And so yes, I wish more people. I wish it

211
00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:29,439
Speaker 1: was safer for me, more people to even say, I'm

212
00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,280
Speaker 1: not even sure this is a problem, but I think

213
00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,600
Speaker 1: it might be early intervention, early right, And you don't

214
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:38,800
Speaker 1: necessarily have to like sign up for the life sentence

215
00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:42,840
Speaker 1: of committing to never drink another drop ever again. You

216
00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 1: might get to the point where you're like, you know what,

217
00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,360
Speaker 1: I don't need to drink another drop ever again. But like,

218
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:54,120
Speaker 1: let's just start with making it safe for people to wonder,

219
00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:57,200
Speaker 1: like be curious, I wonder if I made a change

220
00:12:57,200 --> 00:12:59,600
Speaker 1: what I feel differently in XX way that I want

221
00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,280
Speaker 1: to feel differently, and then just try it. Just try it,

222
00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:06,560
Speaker 1: and that doesn't have to be treatment for everybody. Sometimes,

223
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:11,079
Speaker 1: I mean I talk about connection more than I talk

224
00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,280
Speaker 1: about treatment, and so I think about this the same

225
00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,079
Speaker 1: way I think about diabetes. The doctor tells you, like

226
00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:21,199
Speaker 1: h you know, diabetes runs in your family. Your blood

227
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:23,000
Speaker 1: sugar is a little higher than I want it to be,

228
00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,040
Speaker 1: even though you don't have diabetes yet.

229
00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:26,840
Speaker 3: Maybe go join the gym.

230
00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,080
Speaker 1: The gem is not treatment, but it's a source of

231
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,920
Speaker 1: connection and changing a choice that can help prevent an

232
00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:41,160
Speaker 1: illness from developing. Right. You know, alcohol use disorder runs

233
00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:43,680
Speaker 1: in your family. And I know you're only drinking two

234
00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 1: glasses of wine a night, but you're telling me your

235
00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,120
Speaker 1: mood feels a little crunchy. Why don't we just try

236
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,240
Speaker 1: a month with no alcohol and see if your mood

237
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:54,320
Speaker 1: feels less crunchy.

238
00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:56,720
Speaker 3: I wish we could just get.

239
00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:02,120
Speaker 1: To investing in people's curiosity. Yeah, and just trying different things.

240
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,440
Speaker 1: That doesn't equal. You have to go see doctor Harrison.

241
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,920
Speaker 1: She's an addiction specialist and she's going to make you

242
00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,600
Speaker 1: vow to never do X ever again in your life, which.

243
00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:14,679
Speaker 2: We're like, diagnose yourself with something, nurse you do.

244
00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:17,880
Speaker 3: You have to get diagnosed. You don't have to get diagnosed.

245
00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:19,479
Speaker 3: You don't need a label.

246
00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,400
Speaker 1: All you need to know is you're like, I wonder

247
00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,320
Speaker 1: if you wonder, we have an opportunity.

248
00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that, And that's the reason that this

249
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,160
Speaker 2: podcast is called, you know, the Hello Sunday Podcast for

250
00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:37,080
Speaker 2: Sober Curious Women because I love the whole sober curious movement.

251
00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:39,800
Speaker 2: I mean, and it's everywhere right like New York Times,

252
00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,560
Speaker 2: Good Morning America. Everybody's talking about it. Yeah, But also

253
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:48,960
Speaker 2: the idea is that to make it more approachable, but

254
00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,040
Speaker 2: also like try try to see like longer period of

255
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,920
Speaker 2: time alcohol free. I recommend one hundred days, That's what

256
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,560
Speaker 2: I started with, and then like see because that way

257
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,960
Speaker 2: you'll see that you can socialize and you can go

258
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 2: on vacation and you can watch TV, and after a

259
00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 2: hard day of work you can try a different coping

260
00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:12,880
Speaker 2: mechanism and like at the end of that time, you

261
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,040
Speaker 2: feel better. One you know, I have a group of

262
00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,800
Speaker 2: women who are all, you know, in the process of

263
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,120
Speaker 2: going out call free and just the fact that you know,

264
00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,280
Speaker 2: one of them said, oh my god, I woke up

265
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,320
Speaker 2: with like a cold, the flu of migraine. I didn't sleep,

266
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,720
Speaker 2: I can't believe I used to feel this way every day.

267
00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,120
Speaker 2: I can't believe how shitty I felt, and like I'm

268
00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:38,840
Speaker 2: having one day of it and I'm just like, now

269
00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,320
Speaker 2: I know what healthy feels like.

270
00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that so so so much. And this

271
00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:48,840
Speaker 1: is like you said, you recommend one hundred days, which

272
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,400
Speaker 1: I love one hundred days because I didn't think I'd

273
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,040
Speaker 1: be able to go on the girls trip or live

274
00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: and all this kind of stuff. The book is called

275
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,320
Speaker 1: six Mind Changing Conversations, and there are actually scripts in

276
00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,560
Speaker 1: the book like how to have this conversation, And one

277
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,200
Speaker 1: of them is like, Okay, we're going on a girl's

278
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:08,200
Speaker 1: trip and either I'm choosing not to drink or I

279
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,200
Speaker 1: have a friend who's drinking. I'm worried about. How do

280
00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,640
Speaker 1: we talk about it before we go? Like, what is

281
00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,960
Speaker 1: your plan for when you find yourself in a situation

282
00:16:18,080 --> 00:16:20,960
Speaker 1: you're in a hundred days not drinking, what's your plan

283
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,720
Speaker 1: for when you go out to dinner? Yeah, and the

284
00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 1: server has great intentions and has been instructed by their

285
00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:31,120
Speaker 1: boss to offer everyone a drink.

286
00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:32,480
Speaker 3: And you're gonna say, that's.

287
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,640
Speaker 2: Where they make their profit margin, right, That's where they

288
00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:35,520
Speaker 2: make their profit.

289
00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 1: Margin, Right, I was at a business dinner and it

290
00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,120
Speaker 1: started out with drinks, and so the server came around

291
00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,640
Speaker 1: and was taking everybody's drink and everybody was ordering an

292
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,760
Speaker 1: alcohol drink. And that was back when I was still drinking.

293
00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:50,920
Speaker 1: But me and my husband decided to stop drinking. It's

294
00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:51,800
Speaker 1: been like a year now.

295
00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:55,120
Speaker 2: Oh my god. The last time we talked, you were like,

296
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,760
Speaker 2: I don't drink a lot, but I do barely.

297
00:16:57,920 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 1: I barely drink. And then I was like, why am

298
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:01,120
Speaker 1: I been spending money?

299
00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,440
Speaker 2: But that's amazing.

300
00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, So he was actually the one. He was like,

301
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:07,960
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop drinking. I was like, okay, I'll stop drinking.

302
00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:10,639
Speaker 1: So we haven't drunk for like a year. We're like

303
00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,120
Speaker 1: totally into non alcoholic cocktails. That's oh my god, me too,

304
00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:14,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

305
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,240
Speaker 2: I love non alcoholic beer. That's my jam.

306
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:20,440
Speaker 1: Ooh, I hate beer, so I love non alcoholic beer

307
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,439
Speaker 1: for other people. But for like the book launch, we

308
00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 1: did a total non alcoholic spread. So we had non

309
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:31,880
Speaker 1: alcoholic Heineken, non alcoholic Corona, non alcoholic sparkling wine, which,

310
00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 1: like sparkling wine was my jam.

311
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 3: So now non alcoholic sparkling wine is my jam. I

312
00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:36,359
Speaker 3: love it.

313
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,480
Speaker 1: And cocktails. Anyway, before that, I was at this business dinner.

314
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,680
Speaker 1: Everybody's ordering a drink, so I was gonna get a prosecco.

315
00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:45,879
Speaker 3: That's what I used to drink.

316
00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,200
Speaker 1: But the person before me, so it's like twelve of

317
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,200
Speaker 1: us we're on like person number seven, I'm like number

318
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:58,000
Speaker 1: eight six people order alcohol drink. Person number seven says,

319
00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:01,120
Speaker 1: do you have anything non alcoholics?

320
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:05,080
Speaker 2: Like damn, and the.

321
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,600
Speaker 1: Bar happened to have non alcoholic cocktail and they're like, yeah,

322
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 1: we can do a blah blah blah.

323
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,119
Speaker 3: And he was like I'll take that.

324
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,679
Speaker 1: And I was like, I was planning on ordering a prosecco,

325
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,720
Speaker 1: but I'm gonna go for the non alcoholic drink he disordered,

326
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,960
Speaker 1: And do you know, of the next five people, three

327
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 1: people chose to do a non alcoholic drink and two

328
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:28,159
Speaker 1: other people changed their order they did from alcoholic to

329
00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:34,680
Speaker 1: non alcoholic. Like he just unwillingly made it okay.

330
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,479
Speaker 2: When we were all like whispering about, like bring me this,

331
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,200
Speaker 2: so people think I'm still drinking or.

332
00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:43,320
Speaker 3: None of that, just as like do you have anything

333
00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:43,960
Speaker 3: not alcoholic?

334
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,520
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, I'm just seeing you role

335
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,399
Speaker 1: model how I plan to be going forward it was incredible.

336
00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:57,000
Speaker 1: So back to Sober Curious as like you Hello Someday podcast,

337
00:18:57,920 --> 00:18:59,800
Speaker 1: all of the people in New York Times, all of

338
00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:02,600
Speaker 1: the people on the web that are like, yeah, I.

339
00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:04,000
Speaker 3: Just decided to stop drinking.

340
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 1: You're making it safe for somebody else to say, I'm

341
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 1: gonna try it, like I love it so much.

342
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 2: I mean, I love it too, And it's become such

343
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:17,040
Speaker 2: a thing with like dry January, dry July like this,

344
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,600
Speaker 2: the younger generation not drinking as much. Like there's a

345
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 2: zero proof cocktail menu or a non acolic beer that's

346
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,840
Speaker 2: actually good, that's not crap right on almost every single menu.

347
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,080
Speaker 2: And I mean when I quit drinking eight years ago,

348
00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:34,840
Speaker 2: I actually tried for the first time eleven years ago.

349
00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:35,880
Speaker 2: That was not a thing.

350
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:39,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was not a thing. It was not a thing.

351
00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 3: And it's so good.

352
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:40,439
Speaker 2: I mean.

353
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 1: I talk about the cultural pressures, yes, right, I love

354
00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 1: the face, and this is one of them. I mean,

355
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:55,159
Speaker 1: we basically you and I are the same age. We

356
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:57,000
Speaker 1: were just talking about that.

357
00:19:58,480 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 3: We're the same age.

358
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 1: And when we we grew up, I think we pretty

359
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,440
Speaker 1: much started getting programmed with just wait until you can

360
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 1: get smashed when you turn, when you get to high school,

361
00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,439
Speaker 1: in elementary school, we're seeing that on TV, right, And

362
00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,320
Speaker 1: so you just grow up with this concept that there

363
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 1: is no life without alcohol, and there's amazing life yeah,

364
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 1: without alcohol. And for some people there's amazing life with

365
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 1: alcohol before a lot of people there's not amazing life

366
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 1: with alcohol.

367
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:29,880
Speaker 3: So how do we create space?

368
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,119
Speaker 2: Yeah? And the way it works too, from my experiences,

369
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 2: it starts very innocuous, and it starts because of your culture.

370
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,119
Speaker 2: And you know, although the first time I got drunk,

371
00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:46,800
Speaker 2: I like blacked out in this stuff, but that I

372
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,359
Speaker 2: was doing that on purpose for summer. I mean, I

373
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 2: didn't want to blackout, but I wanted to get super

374
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,959
Speaker 2: drunk because you know, opportunity. But you know, when I

375
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 2: was growing up, it was like there was a bottle

376
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,320
Speaker 2: of wine on the dinner table night because that's what

377
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 2: adult strength. My grandparents had like happy hour before dinner.

378
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,240
Speaker 2: And we're going to talk about all the risk factors.

379
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 2: Nobody in my immediate family meaning like parents, grandparents, sibling, whatever,

380
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:19,000
Speaker 2: struggles with alcohol. I definitely did, but you know, the

381
00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: underlying stuff of like anxiety or you know, you various

382
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 2: things were going to talk about. But also when I

383
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 2: went to college, I joined the women's rugby team, and

384
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:35,600
Speaker 2: I had a very big keg college culture. And the

385
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,399
Speaker 2: rugby team was like a four year crash course on

386
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 2: problematic binge drinking and blacking out and throwing up and

387
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 2: like that was like I was like, oh, this is

388
00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 2: what we do, right, that's where you talk about culture

389
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: to everyone. I knew bene strength, you know, all the

390
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,399
Speaker 2: time it was like the purpose of drinking was to

391
00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:05,960
Speaker 2: get so drunk that anything could happen. And you know it,

392
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,320
Speaker 2: it does skew the way your brain works. You know

393
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:08,879
Speaker 2: it does.

394
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 3: It does.

395
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,360
Speaker 1: And you mentioned nobody else in your family has struggled

396
00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 1: with alcohol. I imagine someone else in your family has

397
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:25,560
Speaker 1: struggled with anxiety or digression, or cigarettes or other thoughts

398
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 1: or suicidal thoughts, or food addiction or work addiction. Right, Like,

399
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,960
Speaker 1: all of these are running through the same pathways in

400
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: our brains. And so that you experienced anxiety yourself made

401
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: you particularly vulnerable to that keg culture in college.

402
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: Right. Okay, I want to dive into the conversations and

403
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,359
Speaker 2: the factors. But the one thing I also wanted to

404
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 2: ask when we talk about that seventy five percent recovery rate,

405
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 2: is everyone talks about relapse, and I absolutely love that

406
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:03,199
Speaker 2: you talk about that. Relapse is not a part of

407
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 2: the IT film. God throw it in of people with

408
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 2: substance use disorder recover and return to use in the

409
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 2: first couple months, in the first year, where's the tipping point?

410
00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 2: Can you like teach us all of that stuff?

411
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 3: Totally?

412
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,199
Speaker 1: So I'm going to go a little medical here, and

413
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: what i want people to know about the book is, yes,

414
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 1: I'm a doctor.

415
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 3: This is not a textbook.

416
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: I wrote this book lack a conversation, or at least

417
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: that was my goal, right, But I'm gonna get a

418
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: little textbooky doctor it here for.

419
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 3: Just a minute.

420
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: Facts, right, that's what you talk about on versus Reality totally.

421
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: And so in medicine, when we talk about chronic conditions,

422
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: we talk about relapse and remission. When you get diagnosed,

423
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: that is because you meet diagnostic criteria for fill in

424
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 1: the blank, diabetes, high blood pressure, alcohol use disorder, if

425
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 1: we're talking about alcohol addiction. When you go into remission,

426
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: that means your symptoms have come down below the threshold

427
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 1: that meets diagnostic criteria for active illness. When you have

428
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 1: a relapse, that means symptoms of the illness have come

429
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: back above that threshold. We talk about, like that person relapsed.

430
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,359
Speaker 1: People do not relapse illnesses relapse. We talk about, you

431
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: had one drink, that's a relapse. One drink does not

432
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 1: meet diagnostic criteria. That is not a relapse, right, And

433
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: so what is so critically important when people say relapse

434
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: is part of the disease.

435
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 3: I hate it. Throw it in the trash.

436
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 2: Because that like plants that seat when you talk about

437
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 2: planting the.

438
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,239
Speaker 3: Seed, like there's no other totally.

439
00:24:57,280 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 2: And you're just like, like it's inevitable.

440
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:02,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, like it's inevitable.

441
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: That would be like if I diagnosed you with breast

442
00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 1: cancer and I said, I'm diagnosing you with breast cancer.

443
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 1: We're gonna do everything we can do to get you

444
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 1: in remission, seventy five percent chance that you're gonna recover.

445
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,199
Speaker 1: But relapses part of the disease. I just told you, Like,

446
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,880
Speaker 1: no matter what you do, cancer is coming back. That

447
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 1: is awful and it's not even true, right, And it's

448
00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 1: not even true. Okay, So what we have to say

449
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: instead is, you know what, I'm really concerned about your

450
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: alcohol use. It meets diagnostic criteria for alcohol use disorder

451
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: mild moderate or severe. Right, you have seventy five percent

452
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 1: chance of recovery from this illness, and based on my

453
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: medical knowledge, these are the things we can do to

454
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 1: give you the best chance to be in that seventy

455
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: five percent. Now, there is a chance of relapse with

456
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: this illness, and what relapse means is these are the

457
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: diagnostic criteria and the risk factors that drive your risk

458
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 1: for relapse are xxxx and X.

459
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 3: So we're going to make a plan for XXX and

460
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 3: X so that hopefully relapse does not become part of

461
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 3: your illness process. Yeah, that's the way to have the conversation.

462
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And so let's first talk about what are

463
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 2: the things that will say you've stopped drinking, say that

464
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: previously you met the diagnostic criteria, or you didn't, or

465
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: you did. Curious like fuck, that's right, but like you've

466
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 2: stopped drinking, your intention is to not go back to

467
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 2: it because you feel like shit and it you pick

468
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: up all your thoughts and whatever it is. What are

469
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,679
Speaker 2: the things that you would do to make sure that

470
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 2: you're in that seventy five percent.

471
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,199
Speaker 3: The first thing is understanding your risk, right, and so

472
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 3: this book is divided into six chapters, and each one

473
00:26:56,560 --> 00:27:01,280
Speaker 3: of the chapters is dedicated to a certain type of risk.

474
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 3: So you can think of this framework in the first

475
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:11,400
Speaker 3: bucket for any chronic condition. There are biological reasons why

476
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 3: you develop it. There are.

477
00:27:15,320 --> 00:27:18,680
Speaker 1: Ecological reasons why you develop it. There are environmental reasons,

478
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 1: and the environment splits into two. That's the cultural environment

479
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 1: as well as the physical environment.

480
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,880
Speaker 3: You're born into a biological set of risk factors. That's

481
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:28,479
Speaker 3: your DNA.

482
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: Right, So people don't know forty to sixty percent of

483
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,879
Speaker 1: your risk of developing addiction is coded in your DNA

484
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: the day you're born.

485
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:40,000
Speaker 2: Is that because of family history or because people in

486
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 2: your family have also had those biological things? Like it's

487
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 2: is it passed down or you happy to have smilary?

488
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: Okay, It is DNA that has passed down to you,

489
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 1: just like DNA for a high blood pressures passed down

490
00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: to you.

491
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 3: DNA for cholesterol has passed down to you.

492
00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:58,920
Speaker 2: Okay, So got it.

493
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: Of your risk for developing an addiction coded in your DNA,

494
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: higher than diabetes, higher than an asthma, higher than high

495
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: blood pressure. Okay, born with it. But that means sixty

496
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: to forty percent because we add up to one hundred

497
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 1: is psychological and environmental. You are also born into early

498
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: childhood experiences psychological risk factors. You are also born into

499
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: a cultural and physical environment. So I call that inherited

500
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: biological risk factors. That's your DNA, inherited psychological risk factors,

501
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: that's your childhood inherited environmental risk factors. That's the culture

502
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: and physical environment you grow up in. That's one, two, three,

503
00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: Repeat those three again as you become an adolescent, young adult,

504
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: older adult, whatever's in the middle, just adult.

505
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: I think me and you right now are just adults.

506
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: Right when you grow into that, you start to acquire things,

507
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: things start to happen to you in life that can

508
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: also be risk factor. So Biologically, maybe you get a

509
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 1: car accident and break a bunch of bones, that's a

510
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: biological risk factor. Maybe a doctor writes you a prescription

511
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: for opioids, that's a biological Respector for people who are

512
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: alcohol sober curious, maybe a doctor writes you a prescription

513
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: for xanax. Yeah, and xanax is alcohol and pill form

514
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: works on the exact same receptor in the brain. Right,

515
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 1: that's a biological risk factor. Psychologically, you develop the.

516
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 3: Stress of.

517
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: Racism, the stress of discrimination, the stress of gender discrimination,

518
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 1: the stress of being the only woman in the workplace,

519
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: the stress of being the only mom who's not a

520
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: stay at home mom, or the only mom who is

521
00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: a stay at home mom in your needs kids or

522
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: high kids are divorced, right whatever, use of relationships, all

523
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 1: of those things. Environmentally, cultural environment. You go to a

524
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: school and join the rugby team, and it's the keg

525
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: culture physical environment. You live in a place where all

526
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: your kneedes are not being met, right, and so that biological, psychological,

527
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 1: environmental repeats. Again, these are the six buckets. So your

528
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: question was, how do you know what to look for?

529
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: First is knowing what you have in each bucket. So inherited, biological,

530
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: do your addiction family tree have the conversations. There's a

531
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: script in the book to help you have the conversation.

532
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: Inherited psychological, you're aces adverse childhood experiences, know what they are,

533
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: put a plan in place to start dealing with the

534
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 1: impact they are still having on you.

535
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 3: Environment.

536
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: Can you give it just a couple example of aces

537
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: in case someone doesn't know what those are totally?

538
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 1: And also you can google aces adverse childhood experiences and

539
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: you'll find it. I do not recommend that you just

540
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 1: google it and take it without having a support system

541
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 1: in place for yourself. And the book goes through this,

542
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: but ACES are for example, did you experience emotional abuse

543
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 1: as a child, did you experience physical abuse as a child.

544
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: Did you have a parent who had a mental health

545
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: condition or addiction? Did you have a parent who left

546
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 1: the house because of divorce. Did you have a parent

547
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: who was incarcerated?

548
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: Right?

549
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: And so there are ten there are ten questions and

550
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 1: if you get a one for every yes question, and

551
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: if you have a score four, higher your risk for

552
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: developing all sorts of chronic conditions adulthood, including addiction, premature birth, obesity,

553
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 1: cigarette smoking, premature I mean, asthma, HIV cancer, like literally

554
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: all kinds of things are associated with this.

555
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 3: My ACES score is five.

556
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: My inherited biological risk is probably closer to that sixty

557
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 1: percent because I have addiction both on my mom's side

558
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: and on my dad's side to different substances.

559
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: Right.

560
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: That allows me to understand my risk, but also allows

561
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: me to start having a conversation with my kids about

562
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 1: their risk. And then same thing biological, psychological, environmental when

563
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: you grow up.

564
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 3: So, Casey, what is your biological risk.

565
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: If you've decided you don't want to drink again, then

566
00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,880
Speaker 1: I need to look at how much biological risk we

567
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: have because that means I have to do even more

568
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 1: with your environment to try to undermine that risk. What's

569
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: your ASIS score? We need to address all those experiences

570
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: that you have. What environment are you currently in? What

571
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: are the people places, emotions, physical sensations.

572
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 3: How are you going to talk to your friends? What

573
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 3: are you going to say at work when your boss

574
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: says come to happy hour?

575
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:47,760
Speaker 2: Right?

576
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: Like we have to make a plan for all those

577
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: risk factors to increase the chance that you're in the

578
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: seventy five percent.

579
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 2: Yeah.

580
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was the longest answer, and I love it.

581
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 2: It's so important. And that, like that last piece, other

582
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: than the hope and the curiosity, is a lot of

583
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 2: the work that I do is Okay, you want to

584
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,239
Speaker 2: stop drinking, but you keep going back to it, Like

585
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 2: what is your home environment? Like what conversations have you had?

586
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: How can you have them without it being scary or

587
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: getting pushed back? Like how do you go to dinner

588
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 2: with your spouse? What do you say it happier? How

589
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: do you go on a business trip? All of those

590
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 2: things because for me, it was one the fear that

591
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: life would suck and everything that goes. How will I relax?

592
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 2: How will I have fun? But it's my favorite thing

593
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: in the world, but it's my only reward, YadA, YadA, YadA.

594
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: But then how literally, how do I go on a

595
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: double date with another couple to celebrate something and tell

596
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: them I'm not drinking or not dive over the table

597
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: and like grab the un right, yeah, And like just

598
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 2: that block and tackling in a really practical way is

599
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 2: like another step that is you have to do.

600
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 3: You know, I have to do it.

601
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,320
Speaker 1: And we literally go through scenarios in the book for

602
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: how to do this, And what I say is, do

603
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,480
Speaker 1: you know why a race car driver can take that

604
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,439
Speaker 1: curve at two hundred miles per hour?

605
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 3: It's because they've practiced. Yeah, you know.

606
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: Why they can safely get out of a crash, It's

607
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 1: because they've been in a simulator. Why Captain Sully could

608
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: land that plane on the Hudson River is because he

609
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: had practiced, right. And so you don't want to be

610
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: in a situation and have to figure it out. You

611
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: conjure up those situations in your brain in advance, and

612
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: you practice, Okay, this is what I'm gonna do. If,

613
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: this is what I'm gonna do if, and then you

614
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: also practice if I find myself in a situation that

615
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: I haven't practiced, this is my go to, Yeah, that

616
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do. And the more you do those reps,

617
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: it gets easier and easier and easier to say I'm

618
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: not drinking and people are like what, and you're like, oh,

619
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 1: you think that's weird. I'm getting the best sleep I

620
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: was ever getting when I was drinking.

621
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,160
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, I love that.

622
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: You already have your one liner queued up right, Oh yeah.

623
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:23,879
Speaker 2: And you know what you're going to order, and you've

624
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 2: told someone in advance you're not drinking when you ask

625
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: someone with you for support, and that's a right, all

626
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 2: all the things, all the thing. So you talk about

627
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: the seventy five percent success rate, which, by the way,

628
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: I'm just going to keep saying so people.

629
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 3: Over and over over, thirty more times before we finish.

630
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 2: Yes, but you talk about it in the context of

631
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: the impact of long term treatment for addiction, and obviously

632
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: that doesn't only mean inpatient rehab. That's right, So tell

633
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 2: me what the different factors are in terms of what

634
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: you think of when you think of long term treatment

635
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: for it, because for some people that's scary, right, Like,

636
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: I'm going to attend twelve step meetings for the rest

637
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: of my life and talk about what a horrible person

638
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 2: I am, but also surround myself with people who are

639
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 2: not drinking and label myself. So what are the sort

640
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 2: of tears or options or any of that.

641
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, So I want to think broader. I want the

642
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 3: word treatment to people to mean like your broader action plan.

643
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 3: And so I'm going to talk about diabetes because I

644
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 3: always do, because I think it's easy for people to

645
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 3: grasp and by the way, the stigma about that, and

646
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 3: there's no stigma. That's exactly what I talk about it.

647
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,320
Speaker 2: It's like nobody's like, oh my god, yeah right, it's

648
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 2: just a condition you treat. It's like like I take

649
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,839
Speaker 2: medication for anxiety and I also try to work out,

650
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 2: and I also.

651
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 3: Totally all the things right, totally right.

652
00:36:56,560 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: And so what if we thought the treatment for diabet

653
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: for a person that had diabetes so severe their blood

654
00:37:03,480 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 1: sugar got so high they went into a coma and

655
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: they had to go on the ICU. They went in

656
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: the ICU for five days and we were like, all right,

657
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: that's it. That's kind of like the concept of detox, Like,

658
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: that's it.

659
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 3: No, if we just.

660
00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,439
Speaker 1: Get them out of the coma and send them right

661
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 1: back out to the exact same set of circumstances with

662
00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 1: no medication, no support, no understanding of the illness, they're

663
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: gonna be back in a coma.

664
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 3: Right.

665
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:29,880
Speaker 1: What if we said, Okay, we got you out of

666
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: the coma, we took you out of ICU, we put

667
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: you on the impatient floor for a week, got your

668
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 1: blood sugar totally normal, then we discharged you. Good luck

669
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: living with diabetes. Nothing else, Right, diabetes is coming back.

670
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: What if we said, for.

671
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 3: The rest of your life, every single day you have

672
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,880
Speaker 3: to come to the doctor and get an insolent shot.

673
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 3: That would be like diabetes.

674
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: Is coming back, because nobody can come back to the

675
00:37:58,400 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 1: doctor every single day.

676
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not how we think about it.

677
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: We think about it like, you go in, you get stabilized,

678
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: you come out, You get connected to some doctor that

679
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: you can meet with in the beginning frequently until you

680
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 1: figure out.

681
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 3: What's going on. And then as you stabilize and figure it.

682
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: Out, you know what your warning signs are for when

683
00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,439
Speaker 1: you need to get back. That's the way I want

684
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: people to think about this, So sober curious, try it.

685
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 3: Stop drinking. Whoa felt the best you ever felt in

686
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 3: your life? Make the des decision.

687
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 1: I'm not going to go back to drinking, either at

688
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 1: all or definitely not to the level where I was

689
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 1: drinking before.

690
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 3: Get your support in place, Get.

691
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: Your medication if you need it, Get your therapy to

692
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: address those adverse childhood experiences. Get your stress your support

693
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,279
Speaker 1: system to get those stressors down. Get a new job,

694
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: find a new spouse, on my wader, whatever you have

695
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,799
Speaker 1: to do right, do all of those things. Know what

696
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:03,359
Speaker 1: your early warning sign. I am doing great. I don't

697
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: need to see you every month. I'll see you every

698
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: two months. I don't need to see you every two months.

699
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: I'll see you every three months. I don't need to

700
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: schedule an appointment with you. But if I notice XX

701
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 1: and X, I'll reach out to you. And so that's

702
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: what I mean by long term treatment. The same way

703
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 1: you have your primary care doctor, you should have your

704
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,200
Speaker 1: person whatever role that is that you know your early

705
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 1: warning signs. They know your early warning signs. You can

706
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: get in with them before your symptoms cross that threshold.

707
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 3: To you'll a relapse.

708
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: Now. I love that, and that is so true in

709
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: my experience, not just for myself, but for so many

710
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: of my coaching clients. When I stopped drinking, I had

711
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: an online group that everybody was sort of on the

712
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 2: path to not drinking, so helpful. A lot of people

713
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,840
Speaker 2: were three and four years on who were giving support

714
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 2: and encouragement and tips. And I had a sober coach

715
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: that I worked with. I emailed her like every single day,

716
00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 2: we had phone calls every once in a while. And

717
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 2: then when I was sixty days so where I joined

718
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: Hip Sobriety School, which was like this online core slash

719
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: group slash whatever with Holly Whittaker who wrote quit like

720
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 2: a woman, Yes a day, And so that was reinforcement.

721
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: And then I started seeing a therapist once a week

722
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: and I got on some medication for anxiety or mood disorder,

723
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 2: and like that was my first year and it wasn't

724
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: like a horrible thing. It was like, oh my god,

725
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,759
Speaker 2: I'm finally getting healthy. I'm finally not waking up with

726
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 2: a hangover, hating myself, feeling strung out with anxiety, craving alcohol,

727
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 2: worrying about it like this was I worked out, you know,

728
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: all the things. And then after I didn't need to

729
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: see my therapist anymore. And after you know, after a year,

730
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: I stopped emailing my coach five days a week. But

731
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: I had also everybody knew I didn't drink. It had

732
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: become part of my identity. I felt good about myself.

733
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 2: I had my sober friends, like good good friends, and

734
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: I also stayed in touch with my group. I knew

735
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: that if I felt really anxious or panicked or whatever,

736
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,040
Speaker 2: I needed to deal with it right away, you know,

737
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: like and trust me. In eight years, I've gone back

738
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 2: to my therapist who knows that I don't drink, and

739
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 2: I keep myself in a good mental health place so

740
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,960
Speaker 2: that I don't go back to drinking or something else, right,

741
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 2: but don't. I haven't seen my therapist in two years

742
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 2: because I'm good.

743
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 3: That's right, That's right, And you know, so I love

744
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 3: so much.

745
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: We talk about this in the book The Magic Formula,

746
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: and I say, what I love about the Magic Formula.

747
00:41:58,680 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: Is that it's not magic.

748
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: It is just your collection of things, yes, that keep

749
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: you healthy as you are defining healthy. And I love

750
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: that journey you just share with us Casey, because that

751
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 1: collection of things has to change over time, because your

752
00:42:17,160 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 1: life is changing over time. And the idea is like,

753
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: match your magic formula to what's happening for you right now.

754
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 3: And so I would say people think of treatment and.

755
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:29,319
Speaker 1: They're like, oh god, I gotta be in AA every

756
00:42:29,360 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: day for the rest of my life, or I'm going

757
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: to be in a halfway house, or i gotta live

758
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: in residential treatment.

759
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 3: I would wager to say, Casey, that part of your

760
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 3: treatment is this Hello Someday podcast.

761
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: Oh god, yes, I mean one of your early warning

762
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: signs would be like if you could not bring yourself

763
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 1: for I'm just gonna say three weeks is probably shorter

764
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: to not make this podcast. You would be like, this

765
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: is a warning sign and I need to bring in supports.

766
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean I tell people that all the time.

767
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 2: They were like, do you think it would be easier

768
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 2: for you to go back to drinking if you weren't

769
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: talking to people every day in a group that you're

770
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 2: running doing the podcast? And I'm like, hell yes, because

771
00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: first of all, helping people in early sobriety reminds me

772
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 2: how much it sucks, Like how much drinking is not

773
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 2: what we see on TV and you talk about that too.

774
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 2: It's how glamorized it is and how harmless it is

775
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 2: and all those stuff. But like, also I get free therapy.

776
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 2: Like i'm talking to you, I talk to other people.

777
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 2: I reach out to people about the shit that I need.

778
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: Like I'm like, okay, talk to me about marriage, talk

779
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 2: to me about like perfectionism. I'm talking to me about

780
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 2: your Foster syndrome. But like that's the ongoing work and

781
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 2: it's great, it makes me happy. Okay, I'm going to

782
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 2: ask you a totally off topic question, okay, because I'm

783
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 2: just curious, and then we're going to go back to it.

784
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 2: So this is good to sound so stupid, but I

785
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 2: just want to know. So I went to my doctor recently, right,

786
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 2: and I looked through you know, they give you the

787
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,319
Speaker 2: report on all your numbers and blah blah blah blah

788
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 2: blah and on there. I forget what there was, but

789
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: it was like anxiety blah blah blah blah blah. And

790
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:22,760
Speaker 2: they then they said alcohol use disorder severe and maybe

791
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 2: they said in remission. I don't even remember, but I

792
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 2: read that and I was like, can I get that downgraded?

793
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: A bottle? Like I was kind of pissed that was

794
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: there because I was like, dude, do you know how

795
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 2: many of your clients patients drink a fuck load?

796
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: I haven't had a drink at eight and a half years.

797
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 3: Was a shit on my chart? Is that terrible? Is

798
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 3: your reaction terrible? Is it terrible that you're in that

799
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 3: it's in your chart? Well, reaction is not too me.

800
00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:54,799
Speaker 3: I'm wondering about my reaction. I actually told my girlfriend's

801
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 3: wheats over. I'm like, first, why does this bother me?

802
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 3: Because the anxiety thing doesn't bother me? So like, clearly

803
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 3: that although I still struggle with anxiety and I don't

804
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 3: struggle with alcohol anymore. But b I was like, it's inaccurate.

805
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: Well yeah, it seemed to me to be a present tense.

806
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it is legitimately an inaccurate diagnosis.

807
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: Okay, tell me about that, because I seriously it was like,

808
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: I want to go back to my doctor and be like,

809
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,759
Speaker 2: I'd like you to change that you can, and I'll

810
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: give you exactly what you can ask them to. Oh please, okays,

811
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 2: tell me why it'scurate.

812
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 1: So, yeah, it's inaccurate because we diagnose alcohol use disorder mild, moderates,

813
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: severe in early remission, or in sustained remission. Those are

814
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: five mutually exclusive diagnoses. So we have ten diagnostic criteria

815
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: for alcohol use disorder. If you only meet one, you

816
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:57,160
Speaker 1: do not have alcohol use disorder. You have risky alcohol use.

817
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 1: We should be trying to prevent you from transitioning. If

818
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,719
Speaker 1: you have two to three of those ten criteria, you

819
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 1: have alcohol use disorder mild. If you have four to five,

820
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:11,279
Speaker 1: you have moderate. If you have six plus you have severe.

821
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,799
Speaker 1: If you have not met diagnostic criteria for three months,

822
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 1: you have alcohol use disorder in early remission. If you

823
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: have not met diagnostic criteria, and remember this is not

824
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: just taking a drink, this is meeting yeah, those ten

825
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 1: diagnostic criteria.

826
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:32,200
Speaker 3: For twelve months, you have alcohol use.

827
00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:37,919
Speaker 1: Disorder in full sustained remission. And so what happens, this

828
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: is like everybody's charge that I always ever see you

829
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 1: come in eight years ago. You have alcohol use disorder severe,

830
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: You get three months, nobody updates the diagnosis to early, right,

831
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: you get a year, nobody updates the diagnosis to full

832
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: sustained remission. And he's correct to keep that alcohol use

833
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: disorder diagnosis on your chart because we should be practicing

834
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 1: prevention right now, right, Like, I know, if your anxiety

835
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 1: is not controlled, that's giving me risk. I know, if

836
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: you're blood sugar and goes low, that's giving me risk,

837
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But it should update it to

838
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: alcohol use disorder in full sustained remission. I think your

839
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: reaction part of it feels like undermining all the hard

840
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 1: work you've done for eight years.

841
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:29,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is true.

842
00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 1: Second, it's communicating something about you diagnostically that's not true.

843
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:35,760
Speaker 3: That never feels good.

844
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

845
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: Third, I think about it like cancer. If you had

846
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: cancer and then your cancer went into remission. When you

847
00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 1: read your chart, you want to be reminded that your

848
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: cancer is in remission.

849
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

850
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 3: So I'm totally validating your reaction.

851
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 1: And when you can go back to the doctor and

852
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,280
Speaker 1: say so, I'm actually gonna give.

853
00:47:57,120 --> 00:47:57,680
Speaker 3: You the code.

854
00:47:57,760 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: Okay, do it.

855
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: Because alcohol use disorder ICD ten we use numbers to

856
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: give the code is ten dot two. That's where your

857
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: doctor currently hasn't your chart, okay, and your doctor just

858
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: needs to choose ten dot two one all right, disorder

859
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 1: in remission.

860
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 2: All right. I'm totally going to do that the next yeah, and.

861
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:24,239
Speaker 1: Have a conversation about why it matters, Like I'm eight

862
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:25,280
Speaker 1: years not drinking.

863
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 3: It's important to communicate that.

864
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, I'm with you, all right, I love it. Okay, see,

865
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: I'm glad I asked I get all the good information,

866
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: so I loved. I have to tell you. When I

867
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: read the title of your book, six mind changing Conversations

868
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 2: that could Save a life, I thought it was going

869
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 2: to be like I've seen in some other books, like

870
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:59,360
Speaker 2: among you know, like a compilation of a client story, right, like, okay,

871
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 2: this is is you know, Sophie and she x y

872
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:06,400
Speaker 2: Z and you know what I mean, because I've seen

873
00:49:06,440 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 2: that before and I love those too. But what I

874
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 2: loved about this was it was like scripts for conversations

875
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: you can have not only about yourself, not only about

876
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 2: how people can support you, but like, how do you

877
00:49:24,480 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: bring it up with your kids? How do you have

878
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 2: the if they are like so good, like elementary school,

879
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 2: middle school, higher I mean, tell us what the conversations

880
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,080
Speaker 2: are so people can kind of dive in, because this

881
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 2: is the practical shit that people need.

882
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 3: That's right, right, that's right.

883
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:48,600
Speaker 1: I tried to write a super practical book that everybody

884
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 1: could see themselves in whether they feel like addiction has

885
00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 1: never been part of their lives in somebody else's life,

886
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: whether they're curious this sort of thing. So the first

887
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:03,160
Speaker 1: the conversations follow that framework that I told you inherited biological, psychological, environmental,

888
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:07,520
Speaker 1: and acquired. So in inherited biological, it's how to have

889
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:12,840
Speaker 1: the conversation with your family about how addiction has affected

890
00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: our family and it helps you in making that addiction tree.

891
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: And that's not easy, right, Like a lot of families,

892
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,840
Speaker 1: this is a taboo subject that nobody is going to

893
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 1: bring up, and so like, how do you have that

894
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,760
Speaker 1: conversation with your family about what our risk is DNA

895
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 1: wise as a family. Inherited psychological is how do you

896
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: have one understand your own ass score?

897
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 3: Adverse childhood experiences?

898
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: How do you have that conversation with someone to support

899
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 1: you in thinking about all those harmful experiences that you

900
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:53,239
Speaker 1: had as a child and how they are still affecting

901
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 1: you today. Inherited environmental is how do you have the

902
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: conversation around how the culture you grew up in and

903
00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: the physical environment you grew up in is still affecting

904
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: your choices today, Yeah, affecting your life experience today and

905
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: then when you come into acquired biological, you had an

906
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 1: injury or developed an illness, or a doctor wrote a prescription,

907
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: how do you have a conversation with your doctor about

908
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: your risk for addiction and the risk of the prescription

909
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:28,879
Speaker 1: they're writing you, and how you put a safety plan

910
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:34,120
Speaker 1: around that prescription. Yeah, inherited psychological is about positive childhood

911
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:41,280
Speaker 1: experiences which nobody ever talks about, but which totally negate.

912
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 3: Adverse childhood experiences. And so it's like, how do you

913
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 3: have one?

914
00:51:45,040 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: How do you have the conversation with yourself to understand

915
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 1: your own emotions, and then how do you talk about

916
00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: those and have conversations with friends?

917
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 3: And then.

918
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: Also how do you talk about the discrimination you've experienced

919
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: and how that drives your risk? And then inherited environmentalist,

920
00:52:06,120 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: how do you have the conversation about what my physical

921
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:10,840
Speaker 1: environment is today.

922
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 3: And how and why I need to change that?

923
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: And so it just go, oh, I'm sorry, I didn't

924
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 1: I think I didn't mention the script with your kids,

925
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: which you mentioned, which is every single age. Yeah, Like

926
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: I started talking to my kids when they were three,

927
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: and now they know how to talk about addiction with

928
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:27,959
Speaker 1: their friends.

929
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, like my kids totally know because my

930
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,880
Speaker 2: son was eight when I quit, yeah, and my daughter

931
00:52:35,120 --> 00:52:39,040
Speaker 2: was two, And of course in the beginning I didn't

932
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,400
Speaker 2: talk about a ton of stuff with them. I was

933
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, I haven't had a I don't. My son,

934
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,640
Speaker 2: of course, I had a bad day, he say, you know,

935
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 2: he was like, oh, Mom, want me to get you

936
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:54,080
Speaker 2: a glass of wide. I was like, fuck, But they know, right,

937
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 2: that's mom. I mean, I can't tell you how many

938
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: women have said that. The kids go in and tell

939
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 2: me about your mom and like what's her favorite drink

940
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:05,360
Speaker 2: and it's like gin and tonic, and they're right, but

941
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 2: you know, knew that. And then of course, because when

942
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 2: I had gone further, like my son and my husband

943
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 2: got me for my thousand days alcohol free. I still

944
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 2: have it in my office right behind me. They got

945
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 2: me a big glass jar and put one thousand like

946
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: little marbles in it, and it just made me so

947
00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: happy and just frout and it was amazing. It makes

948
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 2: me a cake every year on my soberversary with like

949
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,600
Speaker 2: I remember they did the number five with all strawberries

950
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 2: and blueberries, so they're pretty great. But like I've had

951
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,440
Speaker 2: my daughter on my podcast when she was nine, talking

952
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 2: about like how we talk about alcohol, what she knows

953
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:53,399
Speaker 2: about it, and you know, so I love that you

954
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 2: did that because so many women they're like, what do

955
00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:01,280
Speaker 2: I say in a way that's helpful and they understand,

956
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 2: but not like, oh my god, Bob, what's a you know,

957
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: drunk or whatever it is, because you know, it's not that.

958
00:54:08,520 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: It's mom decided not to drink, and that's super awesome.

959
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 1: And that is super awesome, right, Yeah, And it's super awesome.

960
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: And you also can make the decision not to drink

961
00:54:18,440 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: if you choose to make that decision at some point. Yeah,

962
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: you have a role model that you've seen lives an

963
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:25,879
Speaker 1: amazing life that way.

964
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 2: Right.

965
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: So people often talk about addiction as a family illness,

966
00:54:30,719 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 1: community illness, which is absolutely true.

967
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 3: So is recovery. Like when you think.

968
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: About those positive childhood experiences, and what we talk about

969
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 1: in the book is that all of these work as

970
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: adults also, so even if you didn't have them as

971
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 1: a child, you can put them in place as an adult.

972
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: Part of that is were you able to talk about

973
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: your emotions?

974
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 3: Yep? Did you have community traditions, did you have somebody

975
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 3: you knew would stand up for you and so like

976
00:54:56,840 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 3: your husband and your son giving you a jar of

977
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 3: a thousand marble on the thousand to day. You already

978
00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 3: know when you go to a restaurant and the service says,

979
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 3: can I get you a drink? And you're like, I

980
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 3: don't drink, and they're like what your husband and your

981
00:55:10,920 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 3: son are going to.

982
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 2: Be like listen, yeah right, yeah, they're just like yeah, no.

983
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 2: And my husband still drinks, you know, and it's not

984
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 2: a thing. But he's super proud of me for not drinking.

985
00:55:25,040 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 2: And you know, in the beginning, he didn't want me

986
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 2: to stop drinking, right, He wanted me not to like

987
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 2: pass out on the couch. You know, it was like

988
00:55:33,960 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 2: part of our thing. But like that's the evolution that

989
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 2: you go through and you have a new normal. And

990
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 2: the new normal is great because mom never passes out

991
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: on the couch and Dad can't wake her up and

992
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,959
Speaker 2: she's not hungover and pissed off and whatever it is.

993
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 3: Right right, right, So.

994
00:55:51,960 --> 00:55:55,840
Speaker 2: All right, I love this so much. You go through

995
00:55:56,000 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 2: like the coping mechanisms and mental health and policy and

996
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 2: personal like all the good stuff that you need to know.

997
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 2: I just have we not touched on any misconceptions or

998
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 2: myths that you've addressed in your book, Like I just

999
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 2: want to be like, we're not going to go through

1000
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: them all. But here's the things you think you know

1001
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:19,960
Speaker 2: that are not true.

1002
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:23,720
Speaker 3: The things you think you know that are not true.

1003
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: One, people don't get better because seventy five percent of

1004
00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,280
Speaker 1: people recover. We said, we're gonna keep saying it. Two,

1005
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:34,480
Speaker 1: it's everybody else, it's all of us.

1006
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1007
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: Three you have to be drunk in the gutter. Yeah,

1008
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:44,400
Speaker 1: or to be a problem, there is I would love

1009
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,040
Speaker 1: to talk about the cage question.

1010
00:56:46,480 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 3: Do that please? Second?

1011
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 2: Please please?

1012
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:52,040
Speaker 1: So what I'm really, really, really advocating for is the

1013
00:56:52,080 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: same way for breast cancer. We want everybody to do

1014
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: their monthly breast exam because the earlier you catch a lump,

1015
00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:03,480
Speaker 1: the better chance we have for sustained remission no relapse.

1016
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 3: The same is true.

1017
00:57:05,520 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: So I tell people, if you ask yourself, either about

1018
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,480
Speaker 1: yourself or about somebody you care about, should I be worried?

1019
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 3: The answer is yes.

1020
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:14,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1021
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean you have a diagnosis. I don't care

1022
00:57:16,840 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 1: if you get a diagnosis or not. But if you

1023
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 1: say should I, the answer is yes. And so here's

1024
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: a scale that I can give you what's called the cage. See,

1025
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:28,960
Speaker 1: have you ever thought you should cut back? If yes,

1026
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 1: give yourself one point. Hey, have you ever been annoyed

1027
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: when somebody else mentioned you're drinking to you?

1028
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 3: Give yourself a point.

1029
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: Have you ever felt guilty because drinking prevented you from

1030
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: doing something you plan to do? Or you said I'm

1031
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 1: not going to drink today and you still drunk? Like

1032
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:49,600
Speaker 1: if you ever felt guilty over alcohol? And E is

1033
00:57:49,640 --> 00:57:53,960
Speaker 1: for eyeopener, have you ever needed to drink first thing

1034
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 1: in the morning or thought about drinking like it's the

1035
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,959
Speaker 1: first thing on your mind when you wake up. Those

1036
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:04,600
Speaker 1: four questions are called the cage. If you answer yes

1037
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: to one of those questions, there is seventy seven percent

1038
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 1: chance that you have an alcohol use disorder, whether that's mild, moderate,

1039
00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 1: or severe. Even the twenty three percent that don't have

1040
00:58:17,760 --> 00:58:24,000
Speaker 1: an alcohol use disorder have an opportunity to not develop an.

1041
00:58:23,880 --> 00:58:28,920
Speaker 3: Alcohol use disorder. So ask yourself those questions.

1042
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 1: And this is the other myth that I want to bust,

1043
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 1: is that it's dangerous to ask for support. It's not

1044
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,520
Speaker 1: dangerous to ask for support, it's dangerous not to ask

1045
00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: for support.

1046
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 3: There are so many ways, so if.

1047
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 1: You're thinking to yourself, I wonder give yourself the cage

1048
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: or give you know, take the cage on behalf of

1049
00:58:53,760 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 1: somebody you're concerned about, and ask for support. It is

1050
00:58:58,280 --> 00:58:59,320
Speaker 1: the safest way.

1051
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 2: Don't ignore the lump, don't don't. And you know there

1052
00:59:03,760 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 2: are different ways to get support, and we can talk

1053
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 2: about all that, and I've talked about it in previous episodes,

1054
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: but it doesn't mean you have to make a huge

1055
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 2: declaration to anyone. There is support available that is, you know,

1056
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 2: completely private, completely confidential, whatever it is. Yeah, I was

1057
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,520
Speaker 2: the first three out of those four. Yeah, and like

1058
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,320
Speaker 2: drink first thing in the morning, No, unless you go

1059
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 2: out to brunch, right right. I love how we like

1060
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 2: switch what we did.

1061
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

1062
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 2: I mean a mimosa bloody berry, Like that's just totally

1063
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 2: run straight, right totally.

1064
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,080
Speaker 1: I mean I was on the plane the other day,

1065
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 1: because I think I'm on the plane every other day,

1066
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: but I was on the plane the other day and

1067
00:59:50,880 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 1: I was on a six am flight and we were

1068
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: leaving on time, so it was five forty five am,

1069
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,120
Speaker 1: and the flight attendant came around and said, can I

1070
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,080
Speaker 1: get you anything to drink before we take off? And

1071
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 1: this person said, I'll take a red wine at five

1072
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: forty five am. And I don't jump in strangers businesses

1073
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,120
Speaker 1: that are seated across the aisle from me. But I

1074
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 1: thought to myself, Man, I wish it was safe for

1075
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: me to jump across the aisle and just say. I'm

1076
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 1: just saying if you need any support here in some ways,

1077
01:00:24,040 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: like if you're worried about yourself. Yeah, because at five

1078
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:28,920
Speaker 1: forty five am, that's an eye opener.

1079
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. And I always say to people because

1080
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 2: they're like, oh my god, all my friends drink, but

1081
01:00:35,240 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 2: like nobody else is worried about it, blah blah blah.

1082
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 2: And I was like, dude, anyone who is drinking with

1083
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:43,880
Speaker 2: you the way you're drinking, they wake up at three

1084
01:00:43,920 --> 01:00:47,840
Speaker 2: am worried about their alcohol consumption. There is zero chance,

1085
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:51,400
Speaker 2: Like it just doesn't happen. You guys are just not

1086
01:00:51,560 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 2: talking about it.

1087
01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, we got to make it safe to have the conversation.

1088
01:00:55,760 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Okay. One thing we talked about before we

1089
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,360
Speaker 2: jumped on here, and I know I gotta let you go,

1090
01:01:02,640 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 2: is we both said that we don't love the term alcoholic.

1091
01:01:05,880 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 2: Can you tell me why?

1092
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,400
Speaker 3: Yeah? I hate the term it for anything.

1093
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: So I hate diabetic, I hate schizophrenic, I hate alcoholic,

1094
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 1: I hate asthmatic. And the reason is because that is

1095
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 1: not who you are. You are not an alcoholic. You

1096
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 1: may be a person that struggles with alcohol use, you

1097
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:29,920
Speaker 1: may be a person that has a diagnosis of alcohol

1098
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:33,120
Speaker 1: use disorder, you may be a person that just doesn't

1099
01:01:33,160 --> 01:01:37,720
Speaker 1: want to drink. But the struggle you have with alcohol

1100
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,080
Speaker 1: will never ever be the most important thing about you.

1101
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: It will never ever be the thing that defines you.

1102
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: It's one thing that you're going through. And so I

1103
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 1: just always start with the person first to remind us

1104
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: that first and foremost, you are a person. And then

1105
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 1: second we can use you know, words to say what

1106
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:07,040
Speaker 1: your current life experience is. But don't take on that definition.

1107
01:02:08,320 --> 01:02:13,600
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and don't force that definition on somebody.

1108
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 2: Else, on anybody else. Like people use it so casually

1109
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:19,840
Speaker 2: be like hey, oh my god, her dad was such

1110
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 2: an alcoholic and I'm like, it also pisses me up. Well,

1111
01:02:24,080 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 2: mostly unless they are in a twelve step program and

1112
01:02:28,640 --> 01:02:32,880
Speaker 2: they self identifying that as fantastic whatever helps, But like,

1113
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 2: especially for people who have never struggled with addiction, when

1114
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:42,320
Speaker 2: they are casually labeling somebody else and I'm just like, wtf,

1115
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 2: liketfu how about that? Yes, yes, yes, I believe. I

1116
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 2: have like occasionally said that in a much chicer way,

1117
01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 2: be like, dude, uncool, uncool, and you don't know what

1118
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 2: the fuck you're talking.

1119
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, so uncool.

1120
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, one more, last one. It's like rapid fire.

1121
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 2: When the hell are the medical directives information going to change?

1122
01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I know there's huge lobbying stuff, but like

1123
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 2: the American Cancer Society finally said what three four years

1124
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:24,400
Speaker 2: ago that no amount of alcohol is zero risk factor

1125
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 2: for cancer, which they had known for fucking ever. But

1126
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 2: like Ireland is putting labels on every single wine bottle

1127
01:03:34,120 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 2: and beer bottle saying like alcohol causes liver, you know,

1128
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 2: severe liver disease. Alcohol causes cancer, same way as tobacco.

1129
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 2: US I'm not hearing shit.

1130
01:03:46,160 --> 01:03:47,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's two things.

1131
01:03:47,920 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 1: So one, I forget what the statistic is, but something

1132
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: like it takes twenty two years for medical practice to change,

1133
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 1: which is crazy.

1134
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:59,439
Speaker 3: So we're in the midst of it, but it's very

1135
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:00,160
Speaker 3: slow too.

1136
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: Money talks, and the alcohol lobby is so rich and

1137
01:04:05,320 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 1: it is so ingrained in our culture, which I talk

1138
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:11,480
Speaker 1: about in the book, and that's the reason why it's

1139
01:04:11,480 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 1: so slow. But listen, young people are the future. Young

1140
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: people are like totally our hope because they're like, it's

1141
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 1: cool to not drink, yeah, and drinking, you know, and

1142
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:26,200
Speaker 1: so it will come, but it is going to be

1143
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 1: so slow. So that's why we can't depend on the

1144
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:31,880
Speaker 1: external forces. We have to start with these conversations, just

1145
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,160
Speaker 1: like this and this book and just let it broadcast

1146
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 1: into people's individual minds.

1147
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:39,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is so slow.

1148
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 2: All right. I love talking to you. I love your book.

1149
01:04:42,120 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 2: It's called an addiction. You guys should totally pick it up.

1150
01:04:45,040 --> 01:04:49,840
Speaker 2: Your podcast is called an addiction. And tell us where

1151
01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 2: else people should look for you find you anything?

1152
01:04:53,080 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram, Facebook formerly

1153
01:04:57,520 --> 01:05:01,600
Speaker 1: known as Twitter, now called x Threads and LinkedIn at

1154
01:05:01,640 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 1: in Zinga MD or in Zinga Harrison, MD. I co

1155
01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 1: founded this company, Eleanor Health, which I'm so proud of,

1156
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 1: So please check out eleanorhealth dot com. And then the

1157
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 1: book is in print, audio and digital everywhere in stores online.

1158
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 2: Do you do you read the audio?

1159
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:19,200
Speaker 3: I read the audio.

1160
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 2: I love it. When the author I had an audition,

1161
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 2: I had an audition to.

1162
01:05:26,680 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 3: You're good, but.

1163
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:30,479
Speaker 2: I liked You're like other fucking podcast or I could

1164
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:30,919
Speaker 2: do this.

1165
01:05:32,440 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 3: And it was so it was awesome. I had.

1166
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 1: I had so much fun narrating the book. But yeah,

1167
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: So if you want to hear more of this voice,

1168
01:05:39,240 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: get the audible perfect.

1169
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

1170
01:05:42,280 --> 01:05:44,960
Speaker 3: Thank you Kasey, Thank you so much for tuning in.

1171
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: And if you liked this episode, please check out my

1172
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 1: book on Addiction, Six mind Changing Conversations that Could Save

1173
01:05:52,720 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 1: a Life, available at Barnes and Noble, Bookshop, dot org,

1174
01:05:56,760 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 1: Union Squaring Company, Amazon, and wherever books are sold.

1175
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 3: We want to hear from you.

1176
01:06:03,640 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 1: If you identify as black or brown and have a

1177
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 1: recovery story to share, something you've learned, a stigma that

1178
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:14,080
Speaker 1: you've undone, or a conversation that you've had about addiction.

1179
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:18,920
Speaker 1: Send us a voicemail at speakpipe dot com, slash you

1180
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: apod that's speak pipe dot com, slash u a pod