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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to Coast AM on iHeartRadio,

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Speaker 1: and we are back with anthropologists Brian Fagan as we

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Speaker 1: talk about ice ages. Brian, a little ice age or

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Speaker 1: a big ice age? How long does it take from

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Speaker 1: its beginning to its end to complete the big ice age? Well,

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Speaker 1: what typically happens is when it cools, it cools slowly,

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Speaker 1: but when it warms up, it warms rapidly. And over

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Speaker 1: the last million and a half years, the cool rounds

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Speaker 1: have been slow. We don't know how long, maybe a

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand years in many cases. But the warm up

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Speaker 1: of the last ace age, which ended around fifteen thousand

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Speaker 1: years ago, was if you really simplified, about three thousand years.

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Speaker 1: And that's pretty short, okay, four thousand years, So it's

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Speaker 1: not like it's going to take two years to do

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Speaker 1: or anything like that. No, No, it's much stronger than that.

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Speaker 1: Geological time slowly. Human time tends today, certainly to move

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Speaker 1: much faster. What happened in Siberia when they found that

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Speaker 1: wily mammoth frozen flash frozen with food still in its mouth,

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Speaker 1: something tremendous must find when you get I mean basically

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Speaker 1: what it was was deep frozen. And when you get that,

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Speaker 1: the issue is how to preserve it, because you've got

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Speaker 1: to basically keep the thing frozen solid, and those things

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Speaker 1: are big until you can get it to facilities where

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Speaker 1: you can store it and study it at leisure. And

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Speaker 1: the very early mammoths were found they had great difficulty

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Speaker 1: with this and did a lot of research up in Siberia. Today,

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Speaker 1: of course, they are much more sophisticated about it, I

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Speaker 1: mean know a great deal about what were very remarkable animals.

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Speaker 1: The most famous deep frozen find is of course Otzi

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Speaker 1: the Iceman, who was a Bronze Age man found in

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Speaker 1: the Alps in clear about twenty years ago, and he

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Speaker 1: was deep frozen in the glacier and was taken to

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Speaker 1: a bridge a deep frieze and is being studied systematically

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Speaker 1: and has been for years. And they now know that,

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Speaker 1: for example, he dies in the fight, They know the

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Speaker 1: diseases they have. We fact, we know more about his

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Speaker 1: health than he did. So there is a lot you

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Speaker 1: can do now when when the ice age starts, kind

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Speaker 1: of take us through it. Let's assume we're living in

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Speaker 1: that time period. What's happening now? Which one are you

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Speaker 1: talking about? The little a little ice age, which well,

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Speaker 1: which ones happened more often? The little ones? The little ones. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what you get are a series of much colder winters.

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Speaker 1: The growing season shortens, you get ice and I certainly

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Speaker 1: with big ones, you get ice sheets in Scandinavia and

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Speaker 1: North America expanding. You get sea levels falling, and then

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Speaker 1: as things warm up, the ice eats shrink, like say

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Speaker 1: on the Alps, and sea levels wise, it maybe news

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Speaker 1: to know that fifteen thousand years ago the global sea

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Speaker 1: level was three hundred feet lower than it is today,

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Speaker 1: and Siberia and Alaska were joined by a low landuage.

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Speaker 1: You could walk from Siberia to America. The England was

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Speaker 1: joined to the channel to the continent. There was a

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Speaker 1: huge continental shelf off Southeast Asia, so the open amount

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Speaker 1: of open water between Australia and Asia was only about

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Speaker 1: fifty miles. So the world was very different. You talk

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Speaker 1: about how the monsoons, these incredible torrential rainstorms were important

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Speaker 1: during the Little ice Age, how calm, Well what happened

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Speaker 1: was that ice ages, sorry, monsoons basically are tostally tied

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Speaker 1: to El Nino, which is this condition in the Southwest Pacific,

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Speaker 1: which causes sea devils see temperatures to warm, and you

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Speaker 1: get a very complex atmosphere ocean relationship working. And one

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Speaker 1: of the effects of this is to cause monsoon rains

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Speaker 1: to dry up, so you have years when the monsoon

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Speaker 1: rains are practically non existent. The most famous one of

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Speaker 1: this was in eighteen seventy seven where the monsoon failed

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Speaker 1: so badly that a million and a half Indians who

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Speaker 1: depended on monsoon rain for their farms starved and died.

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Speaker 1: And in northern China the same happened that people were

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Speaker 1: selling their children in the streets for food. I mean,

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Speaker 1: these things can be catastrophic. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: about today, of course, is that infrastructures are much more

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Speaker 1: sophisticated and these sort of things are much where. But

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Speaker 1: you still at major famines in areas like Somalia and

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Speaker 1: Ethiopia which are very much affected by monsoons. So monsoons

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Speaker 1: are a major major factor in global climate. And let

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Speaker 1: me ask you, when you said they were selling their

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Speaker 1: children for food, were they selling them for money to

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Speaker 1: buy food or were they selling them as food? No,

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Speaker 1: they were selling them for money to buy Okay, oh

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Speaker 1: my god. Yeah, Because people when famine happens, prices of

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Speaker 1: grain obviously rise, and the people who get affected the

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Speaker 1: most of the plot, and if they live at a

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Speaker 1: subsistence level out in the country, the classic way of

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Speaker 1: doing this is to move in search of food. And

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Speaker 1: what we've got today are severe droughts. We've got shortages

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Speaker 1: to food and so on, and the result is you

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Speaker 1: get migrations of people on a large scale, because today

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Speaker 1: there are many more people in the world, and this

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Speaker 1: makes which might call ecological refugees, into a much bigger problem.

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Speaker 1: You spend a lot of time writing about fishing. Tell

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Speaker 1: me why fishing is a fun subject. I'm not a fisherman,

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Speaker 1: loudly enough. I got into this because I worked in

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Speaker 1: Africa many years ago, as you said earlier, and one

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Speaker 1: of the things we found with a lot of fishbones,

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Speaker 1: and fishbones are extremely difficult to identify, and we had

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Speaker 1: in this collection and I had to learn how to

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Speaker 1: do it, a lot of catfish or bottom fish we

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Speaker 1: have them in America, of course, and we were able

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Speaker 1: to establish that these people were eating large numbers of catfish,

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Speaker 1: and this got me into a study of the history

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Speaker 1: of fishing, and fishing has been enormously important in human history.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the earliest people to catch fish were humans

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Speaker 1: about two million years ago. What they probably did was

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Speaker 1: to catch catfish in shallow water when lakes dry. They

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Speaker 1: literally just picked them up, yep. But later on the

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Speaker 1: traditional measures of fishing, which are nets and hooks and

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Speaker 1: things like that, were developed very early on, as was

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Speaker 1: the the technolonique of drying fish and salting them, which

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Speaker 1: our old technologies. One of the most remarkable things about

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Speaker 1: fishing that I discovered is that the technology, the basic

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Speaker 1: technology of fishing until the modern era with its trawlers

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Speaker 1: and diesel engines and industrial scale fishing, really was remarkably

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Speaker 1: similar to that of the Middle Ages. The Atlantic codfishing

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Speaker 1: used very very simple technology. And really what's happened is

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Speaker 1: that the well thing about fishing has been the intensification

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Speaker 1: of it, because when you started getting civilizations, you had

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Speaker 1: to supply urban markets, and therefore you've got village is

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Speaker 1: organized to catch fish, dry and salt them and sell

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Speaker 1: them in markets and cities. Because many of the world's

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Speaker 1: civilizations depended very heavily on fishing, Brian, aren't we today

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Speaker 1: fishing too much? Where we're pulling out so much fish?

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Speaker 1: They don't have a chance for a producing There is

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Speaker 1: a major crisis of fishing in the ocean. Overfishing has

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Speaker 1: been a problem, oddly enough in the North Atlantic with

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Speaker 1: God for two or three hundred years. Even in Victorian

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Speaker 1: times in England there were complaints about trawlers taking fish

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Speaker 1: from the seabed and destroying the habitat of the fish.

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Speaker 1: And today the problem is a major crisis because you've

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Speaker 1: got extremely efficient trawling technology, you've got extremely efficient electronic

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Speaker 1: technology for locating fish, and you've got the remarkable technology

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Speaker 1: now for refrigerating and deep freezing fish and processing them

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Speaker 1: in the ships out in the ocean. Oh, when they

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Speaker 1: throw those nets out, they get a lot of fish.

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Speaker 1: They stay, I've know a lot of fish and they

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Speaker 1: go out in the remote air is like Antarctica and

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Speaker 1: cash fish like crazy. Because the other thing is we're

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Speaker 1: eating more and more fish, to which the responsors being

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Speaker 1: to farm fish, which is a partial solution, but that

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Speaker 1: the whole set of other can of worms, pollution and

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Speaker 1: so on the circle. So there was no easy answer.

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Speaker 1: And also the GMO what they call frankenfish. I'm opposed

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Speaker 1: to that. That could be a disaster. It could indeed. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I don't know much about modern fishing. I know about

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Speaker 1: Asian but I know that over fishing was a problem

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Speaker 1: at least one hundred years ago. Why the confities of

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Speaker 1: the North Atlantica with a disaster. You talk about anchovies

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Speaker 1: being important to the Peruvians. Tell me about that. Well,

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Speaker 1: yes they were, and it's a very interesting indirect story.

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Speaker 1: Anchovies are the staple diet of seabirds on the Peruvian coast.

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Speaker 1: But every time there's an El Nino, the anchovies move

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Speaker 1: and so do the seabirds. So the anchery fishery, which

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Speaker 1: was enormous, was decimated and that resulted in serious problems

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Speaker 1: for early Peruvian civilizations. Of saying two thousand years ago

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Speaker 1: depended heavily on him. But there's another side to anchovies,

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Speaker 1: which came up in the nineteenth century. If you get

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Speaker 1: anchovie a waste, it is in niddens. It is enormously

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Speaker 1: effective fertilizer with a very high natural nitrogen content, and

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Speaker 1: a huge export industry developed from Peru to Europe in

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Speaker 1: the nineteenth century because at the time there were no

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Speaker 1: artificial fertilizers, that's right, So it really became a huge

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Speaker 1: industry and even today is important and its resulted entirely

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Speaker 1: from the guano dropped by seabirds who'd be meeting anchovies,

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Speaker 1: and the seabirds go and the anchovies go, and there's

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Speaker 1: no guano. It was a huge industry, is it still.

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Speaker 1: It's still there, but it's not nearly as big as

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Speaker 1: it used to be, largely because of artificial fertilizers. Anchovie

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Speaker 1: fishery as such is still very, very important because a

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Speaker 1: lot of it's used for fish meal and animal feed.

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Speaker 1: Brian kind of paint us a picture of what you

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Speaker 1: think things will look like on this planet a hundred

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Speaker 1: years from now, just a hundred years. Well, the first

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Speaker 1: thing is, thank goodness, I shall be pushing up daisies.

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Speaker 1: I will be gone. It's going to be very grim.

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Speaker 1: You've got a number of things going on. You've got

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Speaker 1: the Declaration of the Environment, you've got very intense global

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Speaker 1: warming which is accelerating, and all we've all heard these

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Speaker 1: oh it's going to be dreadful armageddon stories. But the

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Speaker 1: fact of the matter is that it is going to be.

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Speaker 1: For example, just the rising of sea levels from warming

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Speaker 1: is going to indunbate cities where millions of people live.

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Speaker 1: Think of Shanghai, think of Bombay or Mumbai, think of Florida.

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Speaker 1: All you need is a few categorified hurricanes going into Florida,

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Speaker 1: into Miami Beach, and you may lose a city. So

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Speaker 1: you've got a lot of things like that going on.

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Speaker 1: Not only that, but we're threatened with a mass extinction

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Speaker 1: of animals. Has been a lot of public stay lately

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Speaker 1: on this, and the whole situation really depends on us

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Speaker 1: humans taking very proactive steps to try and counter this.

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Speaker 1: And a number of people who are not given to

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Speaker 1: graduation have said, at this impending an emergency, and believe me,

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Speaker 1: it's an emergency. Is probably the next World war equivalent

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Speaker 1: to it. It's going to acquire massive investment, massive effort,

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Speaker 1: and most importantly all massive changes in our social attitudes

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Speaker 1: to diet, then to the environment. It is a very

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Speaker 1: very frightening future. It's grim for those people one hundred

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Speaker 1: years from our isn't it it is? And for our

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Speaker 1: children and great child? Is it fixable, Brian? Is it

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Speaker 1: fixable if who is the political will and people realize

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Speaker 1: how servis of me is? Yes, we have enough time,

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Speaker 1: and people like David Attenborg are the vague aeroes because

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Speaker 1: they been saying this for years. In history, the lesson is,

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Speaker 1: and I spend my life looking back at long periods

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Speaker 1: of history almost in verity, the only time people really

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Speaker 1: do things is if they have a catastrophic situation evolving

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Speaker 1: always after the fact. Die and you have crisis. The

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Speaker 1: question is are we smart enough to recognize the crisis

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Speaker 1: ahead of time and do something about it. That tsunami

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Speaker 1: that hit Indonesia several years ago that killed over two

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand people. Could that have been avoided that disaster? No,

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Speaker 1: probably not. They could have had more effective warning systems.

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Speaker 1: They could have had evacuation procedures in place. But the

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Speaker 1: trouble with those things is you don't get a lot

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Speaker 1: of warning, and it's very difficult. It's like, no, you

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Speaker 1: just got to watch the animals head for the hill.

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Speaker 1: I guess yep. And what very interesting is that you do.

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Speaker 1: One of the things we neglect, which Barry Lopez, the

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Speaker 1: famous environmental author, has just recently written about, is that

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Speaker 1: we tend to ignore traditional knowledge about the environment, and

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Speaker 1: some of that stuff is quite amazing. I remember walking

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Speaker 1: in a African farmer's fields in Africa and he told

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Speaker 1: me the use of every type of plant in his property,

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Speaker 1: for medicine, for food, for emergencies, for animals. It was

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Speaker 1: very sobering. We don't have that sort of information today. No,

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Speaker 1: but boy did they know their plants in those days,

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Speaker 1: didn't they? They had to. Yeah, I mean that's that's

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Speaker 1: how big farmer. Big Farmer has taken plants and has

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Speaker 1: synthesized them. Yeah they have how much? Yeah? I don't

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Speaker 1: know much about that, but certainly the medicinal knowledge of

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Speaker 1: traditional people was, and wasn't men in unkies stories absolutely amazing.

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Speaker 1: Listen to more Coast to Coast AM every weeknight at

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