Speaker 1: Where do you go when they want to build a
Speaker 1: mine in your backyard and both Republicans and Democrats support it, Well,
Speaker 1: you go to court, of course. On today's podcast, we
Speaker 1: talk about the proposed lithium mind that everyone seems to support.
Speaker 1: That is, everyone except the folks who live nearby. Hello,
Speaker 1: and welcome back once again to Parts per Billion, the
Speaker 1: environmental podcast from Bloomberg Law. I'm your host, David Schultz. So,
Speaker 1: of the two major political tribes in our country, the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party is the one that's generally seen as more
Speaker 1: environmentally minded, and that means Democrats often clash with heavily
Speaker 1: polluting industries think chemicals, manufacturing, power generation, and most certainly mining.
Speaker 1: So then why are Democrats from the State House all
Speaker 1: the way up to the White House so bullish on
Speaker 1: a proposed mega mine in remote northern Nevada. That's because
Speaker 1: it's a lithium mine, and lithium is well different, and
Speaker 1: we'll get to that in a second. The company Lithium
Speaker 1: America's wants to build a one billion dollar open pit
Speaker 1: mine near an area called Backer Pass, and the Biden
Speaker 1: administration is backing it one but an unusual coalition of
Speaker 1: environmentalist tribes and ranchers are taking the administration to court
Speaker 1: to try to block construction of this mine. Bloomberg Law
Speaker 1: reporter Daniel Moore went out to Thacker Pass to find
Speaker 1: more about what's going on and to speak to the
Speaker 1: people on the ground who would be most affected. And
Speaker 1: I started off my discussion with Daniel by asking him, well,
Speaker 1: where exactly is Backer Pass? Yeah, this is the far
Speaker 1: northern reaches of Nevada, near the border of Oregon. It
Speaker 1: is far away from populated areas, um from cities. It's
Speaker 1: about an hour north of the nearest town, win Amacca.
Speaker 1: It's very, very dry. It's high desert scrub land with
Speaker 1: lots of lots of sage brush. It's a lot of
Speaker 1: cattle ranches, alfalfa fields, um and and it's a pretty
Speaker 1: desolate area to drive through. Just to give the listeners
Speaker 1: a sense of how isolated this is, I wanna hear
Speaker 1: how you actually got there, Like where did you fly
Speaker 1: into and then where did you you know, I'm assuming
Speaker 1: you had to fly into somewhere and then rent a car.
Speaker 1: How did you do it? Yeah? I was actually at
Speaker 1: a conference beforehand, So I was in Colorado at an
Speaker 1: energy conference and I drove from Colorado through Nevada and
Speaker 1: it was about a twelve hour drive total. Uh. And
Speaker 1: it's in part on the loneliest Road in America, which
Speaker 1: is called that because there's not a whole lot there. Uh.
Speaker 1: Nevada has hundreds of ghost towns within the state, and
Speaker 1: so you know, it's a it's a pretty desolate long drive,
Speaker 1: but strikingly beautiful given all the mountain ranges and valleys
Speaker 1: that you go through. One thing you just said that
Speaker 1: caught my ear was ghost towns. I'm assuming those are
Speaker 1: towns that were set up to do, you know, mining
Speaker 1: of silver and other minerals back in in the day. However,
Speaker 1: now we're talking about mining of a different element, and
Speaker 1: that would be lithium. Let's get into lithium it's self.
Speaker 1: It went up fo last year's insane. What's going on here?
Speaker 1: Why is lithium so valuable? Yeah, Lithium is the lightest
Speaker 1: metal in the world and the universe on the periodic table,
Speaker 1: and as such, it's a it's a key ingredient in
Speaker 1: batteries for consumer electronics and crucially electric vehicles, and so
Speaker 1: because it's very light, it can be used in these
Speaker 1: batteries that can be transportable. And what's happened over the
Speaker 1: last few years is you have electric vehicle manufacturers demanding
Speaker 1: lithium to use in batteries to make electric vehicles. Um
Speaker 1: At the same time as as manufacturers are driving that demand,
Speaker 1: you have policymakers saying, we need to find a secure
Speaker 1: supply of this stuff. We don't want to import it
Speaker 1: from other countries. We want to develop supplies of lithium
Speaker 1: and other critical minerals to like graphite and cobalt and
Speaker 1: other other minerals that go into batteries. We want to
Speaker 1: develop these supplies in our own country. And so those
Speaker 1: two things kind of converge to create this huge demand
Speaker 1: for lithium globally but also in the US. So let's
Speaker 1: specifically talk about this proposed mind near Thacker Pass in
Speaker 1: northern Davata where you visited. How much lithium are the
Speaker 1: companies saying they think they can get there, because I
Speaker 1: get the sense it's not just like a little bit,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of lithium. Yeah, that deposit is the
Speaker 1: largest known lithium deposit in the US, and Lithium America's
Speaker 1: at its mind, which is just a small part of
Speaker 1: the deposit says it can produce eighty thousand tons a
Speaker 1: year at full capacity for forty one years. Now listeners
Speaker 1: can do the math on that um. But what that
Speaker 1: means is that annual amount is roughly what was produced
Speaker 1: across the world in so it's it's a lot of lithium,
Speaker 1: simply put. Uh. And there's a lot of lithium in
Speaker 1: deposit even beyond the Lothian America's mine. But now let's
Speaker 1: get into the environmental issues here. And one of the
Speaker 1: things I really loved about your story is that it
Speaker 1: seems like everyone is of two minds here. You know,
Speaker 1: it seems like everyone can really, you know, see the
Speaker 1: benefits but also see the downsides. For example, environmentalists, obviously
Speaker 1: you'd think that they would be on the one hand,
Speaker 1: in favor of this, because we need lithium to make
Speaker 1: electric batteries, uh, and that can help decarbonize our economy.
Speaker 1: But also this is a huge mind and mining is
Speaker 1: one of the most polluting industries out there. Can you
Speaker 1: give me a sense of where environmentalists are coming down
Speaker 1: on this? Yeah, you're exactly right. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: a classic example of national and global views on climate
Speaker 1: change and the local impacts that building this clean energy
Speaker 1: supply chain will cause. UM. So locally, people some people
Speaker 1: really support this mind UM support this project. They support
Speaker 1: the jobs and that can mac benefit that will come
Speaker 1: UM and certainly environmental groups see benefit from mining lithium
Speaker 1: and producing these batteries as a key climate policy. People
Speaker 1: near the mind they'll have these concerns about well, mining
Speaker 1: is destructed to the land. I mean, first of all,
Speaker 1: it's scooping up earth and it's destroying, you know, impacting
Speaker 1: certain habitats. Uh. There's a concern, a big concern about
Speaker 1: water about UM, what happens if the water gets contaminated.
Speaker 1: There's not a whole lot of water in this area. UM,
Speaker 1: A lot of it is already allocated for agriculture and
Speaker 1: is drinking water. There's a concern about the water table
Speaker 1: possibly dropping as a result of this and and killing
Speaker 1: off some wild rye that cattle depend on. And then
Speaker 1: there's a concern about just the whole processing side of it.
Speaker 1: Bringing in sulfur, which is key to their process of
Speaker 1: actually extracting the lithium. They bring in sulfur, they truck
Speaker 1: it in, They produce sulfuric acid and use that acid
Speaker 1: to separate the lethium from clay um and all of this,
Speaker 1: you know, all of the effect that would have on air,
Speaker 1: on water, on just the environment is a big concern
Speaker 1: for people who um. Again, this is pretty sparsely populated.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful mountain pass people. A lot of people
Speaker 1: don't want to see that um turn into a mine.
Speaker 1: And specifically I want to focus on cattle because one
Speaker 1: of the plaintiffs who is suing to block this mind
Speaker 1: is a guy by the name of Edward Bartel. He
Speaker 1: is a rancher in this area that you spoke to.
Speaker 1: And another one of his co plaintiffs is a group
Speaker 1: called Great Basin Resource Watch, which is an environmentalist group.
Speaker 1: So we have ranchers and environmentalists on the same side
Speaker 1: of a lawsuit. That's pretty unusual. Tell me about Bartel, who,
Speaker 1: who is he and what are his arguments? Why? Why
Speaker 1: is he involved in the suit? Yeah? So every Bartel
Speaker 1: has been a cattle rancher, rancher in that area, uh
Speaker 1: since two thousand eight, and he's been his family has
Speaker 1: been ranching for generations in that in that part of
Speaker 1: the country, and he's concerned about impacts the water and
Speaker 1: air in that area. And specifically with the water. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's very familiar with what it takes to raise cattle.
Speaker 1: He has about five dred cows um that he puts
Speaker 1: up on blm land above the Mind and then and
Speaker 1: then he brings them down onto his ranch, which is
Speaker 1: a little bit below the Mind, but very close to it.
Speaker 1: And he's concerned about um the water quality and the
Speaker 1: water table potentially dropping as the Mind withdraws water, which
Speaker 1: again is already allocated the minus purchased water rights from
Speaker 1: a neighboring ranch. But he's still concerned that even though
Speaker 1: they're using the same amount of water that's what the
Speaker 1: company says they're going to do, that that could affect
Speaker 1: his water supply, which then affects the rye that just
Speaker 1: naturally grows on his property, which then could affect his
Speaker 1: cattle that that feed us. So it's a very um
Speaker 1: he see it as a threat. Yeah, you spoke to
Speaker 1: Bartel and one of his neighbors, Gen williams Uh, and
Speaker 1: he talked about, you know what happens if the projections
Speaker 1: on the water here are wrong. Let's hear from him.
Speaker 1: And so if we get this wrong, if we have
Speaker 1: a four hundred foot tall mountain a waste here, and
Speaker 1: that starts leaching into the groundwater. What do you do
Speaker 1: at that point? It's not like you can instantly move
Speaker 1: that mountain a waste And everybody says, oh, this is wonderful.
Speaker 1: We're going to give three hundred jobs. What about our
Speaker 1: three hundred jobs and our private property and all the
Speaker 1: farmers and their families and the employees that benefit out here.
Speaker 1: I bet we got more than three hundred, all right.
Speaker 1: And then let's get to another stakeholder here, which are
Speaker 1: the nearby tribal lands. And this is where things get
Speaker 1: really ambiguous. Um, can you talk about the tribes and
Speaker 1: their interests here and who among them are opposing this mine? Sure? So?
Speaker 1: About fifty miles north of the proposed mind the for
Speaker 1: the Fort McDermott tribe um is a relatively small reservation.
Speaker 1: It's about five people who lived there. Um. Their main
Speaker 1: concern is, um that they weren't consulted about this mind
Speaker 1: quite frankly. I mean that the Trump administration had approved
Speaker 1: it in January one, just days before leaving office, and
Speaker 1: the Biden administration has defended the project and backed backed
Speaker 1: up that approval. But they're concerned about again impacts the
Speaker 1: water air. They see this um Mountain Pass where the
Speaker 1: mind would go as sacred to their ancestors. They also
Speaker 1: are concerned about this massacre that took place in eighteen
Speaker 1: sixty five that they say happened on the mountain Pass
Speaker 1: or near the mountain Pass, and and they see a
Speaker 1: long history of mining in this area, contaminate, eating the
Speaker 1: water and the land, and they they don't believe the
Speaker 1: promises that the lithium company UM has made about being
Speaker 1: a good steward of the land. Yeah, and one of
Speaker 1: the people that you spoke with is Deronda Hinckley, who's
Speaker 1: twenty four year old tribal activist, and you know, speaking
Speaker 1: of water, she's very, very concerned about how this will
Speaker 1: impact water. Let's hear from her. But yeah, the environmental
Speaker 1: impacts of water, we're really concerning, just because you know,
Speaker 1: this is a high desert ecosystem. If you look at it,
Speaker 1: there's not much water already. And if there is water,
Speaker 1: it's mostly groundwater. And we all know the story of groundwater.
Speaker 1: It's gonna get polluted, you know, it gets in those aquifers,
Speaker 1: that's it. You could like really damage it for that
Speaker 1: years and years and years and so that was like
Speaker 1: a big one. And like in our ceremonies and stuff,
Speaker 1: we pray to water, we pray with water, and so
Speaker 1: like that was one of my core like values. Just
Speaker 1: the overlap between the cultural and environmental I mean absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1: I tell people that your environmental concerns are cultural concern us.
Speaker 1: Like there is a like, I don't see the line.
Speaker 1: There are also people in the you know, tribal administration
Speaker 1: who are concerned about what happens if the mind doesn't
Speaker 1: get built. Uh, can you tell me a little bit
Speaker 1: about that. You spoke with one person, Maxine red Star,
Speaker 1: the cheerwoman of the four McDermott put shone tribal council. Um,
Speaker 1: she's really worried about, you know, the other side of
Speaker 1: this coin. What's what's what are her concerns? Yeah, Maxine
Speaker 1: came into office, by the way, just a few weeks
Speaker 1: before this mine was approved and said she found out
Speaker 1: about it a few weeks after was approved from an
Speaker 1: angry tribal member and claims that she didn't really fully
Speaker 1: understand the scope of the project. But you know, she
Speaker 1: said she she took um a collaborative approach with the
Speaker 1: Bureau of Land management and wanted to sit down with
Speaker 1: officials and understand it. And she said she gained assurances
Speaker 1: that this mine would be well regulated, would not impact
Speaker 1: the environment unlike previous mining in the area. And to her,
Speaker 1: you know, she wants to create economic opportunity for the
Speaker 1: next generation of tribal members who live on that reservation.
Speaker 1: There's not a whole lot around aside from a few
Speaker 1: rest stops, gas stations. There's a small casino nearby, and
Speaker 1: there's just you know, she says that she's gotten calls
Speaker 1: from people who live across the country, members who had
Speaker 1: to leave the reservation who now want to come back
Speaker 1: and work at work at this mine, and she thinks
Speaker 1: that it can be done in a sustainable way and
Speaker 1: with about three hundred jobs full time jobs and a
Speaker 1: thousand construction jobs that the company has promised. You know,
Speaker 1: she sees this as an opportunity that could work for
Speaker 1: people who live in that area and don't you know,
Speaker 1: really have a comparable job that they can go take. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you spoke with Maxine, of course, because this is Nevada.
Speaker 1: You spoke with her in a casino and here's her
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, the tension between the environment and
Speaker 1: the economy. You know that one of my my councilman
Speaker 1: mentioned one time. You know, we're all focused on the histories,
Speaker 1: were all focused on right now, what about these young kids?
Speaker 1: What about the people that are in school? We have
Speaker 1: not heard what they have to say? Are yet our
Speaker 1: young people are young adults, our youth, We're not We're
Speaker 1: not hearing them. Those are our future. What are we
Speaker 1: going to leave them? Are we going to leave them
Speaker 1: with this desolate land and do nothing with that and
Speaker 1: fight you know this this corporate giant, or are gonna
Speaker 1: work with that corporation and provide benefits to our young people?
Speaker 1: That's going to carry us into the future, because, like
Speaker 1: I said, this is where it's at. Okay, Well, there's
Speaker 1: one other stakeholder here who we haven't talked about yet,
Speaker 1: and that's Lithium America's, which is the company that wants
Speaker 1: to build this mine. Um, what do they say? I
Speaker 1: get the sense that their their argument, in their line
Speaker 1: of thinking is just because promises were broken in the
Speaker 1: past doesn't mean the promises will be broken in the future.
Speaker 1: Is that a fair characterization of their you know their line? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. I mean, they don't shy away from talking
Speaker 1: about the concerns that people have locally, and they've in fact,
Speaker 1: they've said they've engaged with all the tribes in the area.
Speaker 1: They've engaged with the ranching community, the people who live
Speaker 1: on either side of this mountain pass, and they've been
Speaker 1: engaging for years and years. They see this as a
Speaker 1: mind that can be operated sustainably, as kind of a
Speaker 1: new breed of mine. UM. They mind for for about
Speaker 1: four decades and then they restore the land to what
Speaker 1: it was UM. And of course they also portray this
Speaker 1: as as meeting the call of the Biden administration of
Speaker 1: of demand for this lithium which has increased in value.
Speaker 1: And they've been they've been working on this for more
Speaker 1: than ten years UM in different you know, they've been
Speaker 1: doing exploration, they've been developing it. They've been developing this
Speaker 1: um extraction process UM. They've opened a new laboratory and
Speaker 1: reno where they can bring people in and show them
Speaker 1: how it's done. And so, you know, they would say
Speaker 1: that they've they've developed this safe process UM and they've
Speaker 1: put a lot of time and investment into it. They
Speaker 1: point to people in the community who really support this.
Speaker 1: I mean there are a lot of supporters of this
Speaker 1: mind and see this as you know, necessary for local
Speaker 1: economic development and also you know, the global fight against
Speaker 1: climate change. Yeah, and it's worth noting here that it
Speaker 1: does seem like the environmentalists and the other people who
Speaker 1: opposing this mind from a political standpoint are kind of
Speaker 1: out on their own because Republicans, of course, are very
Speaker 1: you know, in favor of this. But so we're Democrats,
Speaker 1: not just in the Biden administration, but you talked about
Speaker 1: how the Democratic governor of Nevada is also very much
Speaker 1: in favor of building this mind. Both parties seem to
Speaker 1: be united on this. Oh that's right. Yeah, this is
Speaker 1: securing battery minerals is a bipartisan goal in Washington, and
Speaker 1: that goes down to Nevada. And Nevada is a very
Speaker 1: mining friendly state too. I mean, I think the Silver State,
Speaker 1: the Silver state exactly. I mean, there's there's a long
Speaker 1: history there of mining and permitting mining and regulating it. Um.
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think I think that the Nevada officials
Speaker 1: and local officials in the state see this as being
Speaker 1: another boom akin to gold and silver in the past. Okay, finally,
Speaker 1: let's talk about the suit Um, you know, and what
Speaker 1: the status is there. It sounds like if and when
Speaker 1: a judge makes a ruling on this case, mining could
Speaker 1: start very very soon after that, maybe almost immediately. Um,
Speaker 1: what's the status of the lawsuit? And you know, what
Speaker 1: are the potential outcomes here? Yeah, so briefing in the
Speaker 1: suit has finished and both parties, all parties are are
Speaker 1: waiting for arguments to be scheduled, So there could be
Speaker 1: some arguments coming up. Um, the judge could rule at
Speaker 1: any time. And whenever the judge rules, if they rule
Speaker 1: against Bartel and the tribes and the environmental groups, um,
Speaker 1: mining yeah, could begin pretty immediately and Lithium America's has
Speaker 1: said they fully intend to start construction, you know, whenever
Speaker 1: this legal issue is resolved, and if the judge extends
Speaker 1: the case in any way, I mean, the legal fight
Speaker 1: could continue. Um, it's been going on for more than
Speaker 1: eighteen months right now. M Bartel filed is lasted in February,
Speaker 1: so it's been a lengthy legal process and it would
Speaker 1: be even longer until the judge makes a ruling either way.
Speaker 1: All right. Well, that was Daniel Moore speaking with us
Speaker 1: about his recent voyage to northern Nevada, Daniel, Thank you
Speaker 1: so much for talking. Yeah, thanks for having me. And
Speaker 1: that's it for today's episode of Parts per Billion. If
Speaker 1: you want more environmental news, check us out on Twitter.
Speaker 1: We used the handle at environment just that at environment.
Speaker 1: I'm at David B. Schultz if you want to chat
Speaker 1: with me. Today's episode of Parts for billions produced by myself,
Speaker 1: David Schultz. Parts per Billion was created by Jessica Combs
Speaker 1: and Rachel Daglan. Is edited by Zach Shrwood and Chuck McCutcheon.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Josh Block. Thanks everyone for listening
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