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Speaker 1: This is me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely

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Speaker 1: bog bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by on X. Hunt creators are

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Speaker 1: the most comprehensive digital mapping system for hunters. Download the

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Speaker 1: Hunt app from the iTunes or Google play store. Nor

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Speaker 1: where you stand with on X All right, everybody, not

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Speaker 1: not that we have guests, not that we ever have

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Speaker 1: unspecial guests, Like I don't want former guests who are

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Speaker 1: listening to to feel broken hearted and beaten down when

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Speaker 1: I say that we have a special guest, because they right,

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Speaker 1: no one wants to hear that. But but it's it's

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Speaker 1: like in the specialness of all our guests, there's there's

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Speaker 1: one that is rising up a little special right now

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Speaker 1: where we have on author Mark Kurlansky. And I'm sure

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Speaker 1: like everybody out there is familiar with some of his books.

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Speaker 1: Um in my world for sure, UM being familiar with

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Speaker 1: Mark's book cod and his book Salt, which seemed to

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Speaker 1: make its way, you know, onto every coffee table and

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Speaker 1: bookshelf from the country. Also the author of The Big Oyster,

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Speaker 1: A World Without Fish, And we're here today to talk

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Speaker 1: about Mark's new book Salmon and about salmon in general. So, uh,

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Speaker 1: welcome Mark, Thank thanks for joining us. And we're still

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Speaker 1: in like our COVID nineteen recording situation where much too

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Speaker 1: you know much to my shore grin, we are not

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Speaker 1: in the same room together. Mark is is hold up

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Speaker 1: in Manhattan. But thanks for joining us. Mark. It's my pleasure.

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Speaker 1: Be nice to be in Montana right now. But what

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Speaker 1: can I do? No, I think relative to many other

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Speaker 1: places in the country, we have it pretty good right now,

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Speaker 1: even though we are still under you know, stay at

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Speaker 1: home orders by the government. But um, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty good place to pretty decent place to do that. Ah.

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Speaker 1: I caught this. This is one on one of my

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Speaker 1: top questions and were we already talked about it. This

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Speaker 1: is what we're setting up our equipment. Uh, you're a fisherman.

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Speaker 1: Explain your Explain your fishing life a little bit to people. Well, um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've I've always been a fisherman. Uh for small time.

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Speaker 1: When I was young, I was a commercial fisherman. Oh

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Speaker 1: oh really okay, Yeah, Well I'm from New England and um,

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Speaker 1: when I was getting out of high school, I thought

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Speaker 1: what could be better than too? You know chish on

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Speaker 1: commercial boats and uh and and I actually did love it,

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Speaker 1: but I was young. It gets to be just to

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Speaker 1: be less by as you get older. But I've also

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Speaker 1: always been a sports fisherman. I I I started off

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Speaker 1: like most New England kids who don't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. Um, serf casting for stripers and blues, which

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Speaker 1: you know, if you ever serf cast, and what what

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Speaker 1: that does is it it gets you obsessed with the

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Speaker 1: art of casting. And once you become obsessed with the

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Speaker 1: art of casting, you inevitably go to fly fishing. It.

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Speaker 1: Nowadays fly fishing is most of the time, is the

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Speaker 1: only fishing I do. Every once in a while, I

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Speaker 1: go to the ocean. Your book on on salm and um,

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Speaker 1: I hate. I don't want to say this. I hope

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Speaker 1: people listen to the whole interview because I don't want

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Speaker 1: to start out on a sour note. But your your

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Speaker 1: your book Hunt Salmon One's up. You provide a pretty

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Speaker 1: doom view on what the future of these creatures is. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And you you catalog this centuries long collapse that's that's

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Speaker 1: ongoing today, that this collapse of salmon stocks and salmon fisheries.

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Speaker 1: You know, around the world where salmon can be found.

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Speaker 1: But I find that right away, and starting to go

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Speaker 1: through your book, I noticed that you would now and

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Speaker 1: then speak fondly or empathetically of commercial fishermen, and you

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Speaker 1: even give some recipes and talk about cooking salmon and

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Speaker 1: eating salmon. And I got to wonder if you were

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Speaker 1: writing a book about the collapse of the elephant somehow,

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Speaker 1: it seems that you would not put elephant recipes in

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Speaker 1: that book. Well, can you explain how those things can coexist? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because there there there isn't a sustainable um elephant hunting system. Uh,

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Speaker 1: there is, your say, emmen um. Salmon is actually uh

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Speaker 1: one of the easier fish to regulate a fishery for

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Speaker 1: because they're very predictable and we know what they're doing

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Speaker 1: and when they're doing it um. And really all you

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Speaker 1: have to do is count the number of fish that

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Speaker 1: go up a river to spawn, which you can do

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Speaker 1: from a tower or from an airplane. I mean you

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Speaker 1: can just see them. And when enough fish have spawned,

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Speaker 1: then you tell the fisherman okay for a certain about

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Speaker 1: number of hours, now you can fish. And this works

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Speaker 1: quite well in a few places where there's still a

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Speaker 1: healthy salmon runs. But you know, the reason I decided

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Speaker 1: to do this book was because in n seven I

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Speaker 1: came out with my book on cob and this was

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Speaker 1: as the northern stock in the Grand Banks was collapsing

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Speaker 1: and people were really the first time seriously thinking about

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Speaker 1: the problems of overfishing and regulating commercial fisheries. Um I

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Speaker 1: mean the general public, use fishermen. I mean, when I

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Speaker 1: was on commercial boats in the nineteen sixties, it was

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Speaker 1: all fishermen talked about. But now by the end of

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Speaker 1: the people who were thinking about it. And that's what

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Speaker 1: my book was about. And since then I've been monitoring

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Speaker 1: fisheries and what's going on, and it's become clear to

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Speaker 1: me that over fishing and regulating fisheries is a minor problem.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the smaller problems. In fact, if you

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Speaker 1: could find a fishery where that was the only problem,

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Speaker 1: it would be wonderful, it would be so relatively easy

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Speaker 1: to fix. But the problems are far more complex than that.

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Speaker 1: And I thought that salmon was the perfect way to

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Speaker 1: make that point, because being an anadromous fish living both

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Speaker 1: in freshwater and in the ocean, it gets hit by

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Speaker 1: everything that we do wrong. So the problem is not

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Speaker 1: that we're eating fish or fishing them commercially. Um, the

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Speaker 1: fact is there's places like most of the areas of

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Speaker 1: Atlantic salmon, there is no commercial fishery anymore, and the

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Speaker 1: fish are still becoming rarer and rare. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what's going on? You know, there's deforestation, there's building dams,

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Speaker 1: there's pollution, there's bad farming practices, there's urban sprawl, and

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Speaker 1: there's climate change, and climate change and climate change huge problem.

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Speaker 1: And so basically, if you want to save the salmon,

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Speaker 1: all you really have to do is save the earth

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Speaker 1: and then it'll be saved. Yeah. And the intro at

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Speaker 1: the end of the book as a prologue that starts

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Speaker 1: out with a couple uh you know, biography biographies or

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Speaker 1: more like character portrait of a couple of different commercial

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Speaker 1: salmon fisherman and then you you end the prologue by remarking,

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Speaker 1: how you know there still live It's remarkable that we

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Speaker 1: still have a commercial fishery for salmon. And you say

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Speaker 1: that this isn't a book about over fishing. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like a like a very it feels like an

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Speaker 1: very important and a very important point you want to

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Speaker 1: make UM. But you go into like what it would

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Speaker 1: take to save salmon, and you list some things that

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Speaker 1: seems so uh impossible that it left me wondering, um,

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Speaker 1: if we had some wiggle room in there, because the

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Speaker 1: things that we would need to do, frankly are very

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Speaker 1: very hard to picture us pulling that together. And so

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Speaker 1: it left me wondering, is there a plan B that

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Speaker 1: we can be open to and maybe maybe we can

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Speaker 1: return into that or you can tackle that one now,

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Speaker 1: or we can get to it as our conversation moves on. Well, look,

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Speaker 1: if we can all pull together because we're being attacked

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Speaker 1: by a pandemic and close down the economy and start

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Speaker 1: from zero and rebuild, UM, then we could do that

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Speaker 1: because of climate change. Also, climate change is a far

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Speaker 1: greater threat than a pandemic. In fact, a pandemic is

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Speaker 1: just one of the threats of climate change. UM. I

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Speaker 1: sometimes wonder why we have failed to get that message across.

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Speaker 1: But we really have to do drastic things. But when

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Speaker 1: I look at the whole history of salmon, and you know,

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Speaker 1: going back to ancient times, and there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of talks about UM blocking rivers. Blocking rivers is one

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Speaker 1: of the huge issues and even in the Middle Ages

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Speaker 1: there were ordinances against blocking rivers, and the Magna Carta

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Speaker 1: specifies that the King of England cannot block a salmon river.

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Speaker 1: Um and the problem of overnetting and and damning we're

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Speaker 1: huge problems. But in the nineteenth century, uh, along came

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Speaker 1: the Industrial Revolution, and I mean, if you look at Britain,

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Speaker 1: I mean they built all of these uh mills which

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Speaker 1: they powered by dams that blocked rivers, and then the

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Speaker 1: mills dumped their pollution into the rivers, and soon the

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Speaker 1: rivers of Britain were completely dead. And then in New England, people,

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Speaker 1: uh many of British origin, did the exact same thing.

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Speaker 1: And then you know, it was largely New Englanders who

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Speaker 1: went out west and got this great idea of how

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Speaker 1: to build this Pacific Northwest by blocking the rivers and

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Speaker 1: having hydroelectric dams and producing more energy than anybody else

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Speaker 1: had to build this economic powerhouse. So I was researching

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Speaker 1: all of this, and I was thinking, why isn't anybody

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Speaker 1: learning anything? And then I realized, because they're not trying

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Speaker 1: to learn anything. Uh. They regarded these things that they

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Speaker 1: did as tremendous successes. They did make Britain the greatest

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Speaker 1: industrial power in the world. They did make New England

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Speaker 1: the greatest industrial force in North America, and they did

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Speaker 1: take the Pacific Northwest, which had very little economic activity,

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Speaker 1: and build a huge economy based on electricity from hydro

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Speaker 1: electric games. These are great successes um that are destroying

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Speaker 1: the planet. And so what's really happening here is that

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Speaker 1: we need to rethink our whole idea of economic development.

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Speaker 1: To develop in a eonomy does not necessarily mean that

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Speaker 1: you have to destroy the earth. Uh. You have to

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Speaker 1: look for ways of developing that are not destructive, um,

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Speaker 1: and we need to do that fairly quickly. I mean

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Speaker 1: the the Europeans who came to America and looked at

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Speaker 1: the Native Americans whose lives depended on salmon, uh, wondered

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Speaker 1: why they're salmon stocks weren't getting depleted like the white

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Speaker 1: people's were. And they came up with a couple of

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Speaker 1: ideas that they didn't have enough fishing skills over fish,

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Speaker 1: and that they only used this for you know, sustainable

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Speaker 1: ability for food, they didn't use it for commerce. And

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Speaker 1: this was completely wrong. They had economies, they they have

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Speaker 1: built villages, they traded between them salmon was an important

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Speaker 1: commodity of trade, and they were brilliant salmon fisherman. If

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Speaker 1: you read the journals of Lewis and Clark and Mackenzie

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Speaker 1: and any of the early explorers, you know if they

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Speaker 1: if they wanted salmon, they had to find an Indian

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Speaker 1: because the Indians were the ones who knew how to

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Speaker 1: catch them. So it was such a flourishing salmon industry. Why, um,

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Speaker 1: why didn't they destroy the salmon stocks like we did,

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Speaker 1: Because the founding principle of developing their economy was that

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Speaker 1: you can't destroy the habitat. You have to maintain the river.

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Speaker 1: You have to treat the river respectfully, you have to

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Speaker 1: treat the salmon respectfully. And I submit that we need

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Speaker 1: to change their thinking. I know you make that well.

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Speaker 1: I want to return to that, manx. I actually have

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Speaker 1: a question about that coming up down the list here,

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Speaker 1: But first I want to lay a little more groundwork

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Speaker 1: for people, um and touch on something you already touched

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Speaker 1: on where you I want to connect to thoughts of

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Speaker 1: years one about that the survival of salmon is absolutely

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Speaker 1: tied to the survival of the planet. And also can

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Speaker 1: you touch more on anagrem like explain to people what

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Speaker 1: that means, why that makes the fish special, and why

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Speaker 1: it makes them all that much more vulnerable. And you

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Speaker 1: talked to you in your book about the cost the

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Speaker 1: anagremy uh entails like why it's a risky life strategy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know. I said in the book that the purpose

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Speaker 1: of the book was not to say, you know that

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Speaker 1: this is an incredible animal and it would be really

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Speaker 1: sad if we lost it. However, it is an incredible animal,

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Speaker 1: and it would be really sad if we lost it.

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Speaker 1: I think salmon is one of the most remarkable animals

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Speaker 1: in the animal kingdom. Um a fish that can jump

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Speaker 1: eleven feet in the air. I mean think about that.

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Speaker 1: That would be like a human being jumping fifty ft.

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Speaker 1: It can accelerate as fast as an automobile. Um. They

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Speaker 1: they born in rivers, and they get to the size

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Speaker 1: of herring, and they go out to sea and they

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Speaker 1: eat so much, they hunt so much that they increase

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Speaker 1: their size by there's thousands of miles away now and

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Speaker 1: at a certain point, UM, it's like a bell goes off,

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Speaker 1: time to spawn, time to reproduce the species, and they

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Speaker 1: find the river in which they were born, which is

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Speaker 1: now thousands of miles away, and not only that, but

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Speaker 1: in that river they find the exact spot in the

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Speaker 1: river where they were born. And Hey, Mark, I want

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Speaker 1: to just interject. Can you speak just a little sidebar

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Speaker 1: about how like all the different ideas of how they

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Speaker 1: think that salmon are able to do that. Yeah, they're

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Speaker 1: not absolutely certain how they find them of it. Um.

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Speaker 1: There is a lot of theories, and they're pretty sure

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Speaker 1: that once they get in the river, they find the

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Speaker 1: right spot through smell, and they can identify that it's

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Speaker 1: the right river by the smell. But they can't smell

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Speaker 1: the river from thousands of miles at sea. So how

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Speaker 1: do they get there? Um? Some theorize that they use uh,

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Speaker 1: stellar solar navigation. Some think that they they're able to

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Speaker 1: lock into electric electro magnetic fields. They seem to have

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Speaker 1: some magnetic materials along the stripe in the center of

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Speaker 1: their body, the lateral stripe there. And uh, it's not

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Speaker 1: completely certain they're they're they're still trying to figure it out. Um,

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Speaker 1: but it's uh, it's an ability that all salmon have.

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Speaker 1: And occasionally salmon won't go back to the river. It's

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Speaker 1: earth will spawn somewhere else. And this is a good

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Speaker 1: thing because it they find new rivers and they developed

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Speaker 1: new rivers. At the moment, they're developing some rivers in

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Speaker 1: the north slope of Alaska that are not no longer

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Speaker 1: iced over because of climate change. UM. The one of

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Speaker 1: the remarkable features of salmon is that they completely adapt

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Speaker 1: to the river they come from, so that UM their

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Speaker 1: DNA is completely focused on that particular river, which is

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Speaker 1: why hatcheries, if they try to do eggs from a

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Speaker 1: different river, it won't do well in that river because

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a specific subspecies UM. And if you

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Speaker 1: look at two salmon of the same species and two

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Speaker 1: different rivers, they would look the same. But the DNA

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Speaker 1: is actually more different than yours and mine UM. And

259
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Speaker 1: when it becomes it's not clear to me at what

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Speaker 1: point this is or how this has decided, but when

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Speaker 1: the DNA becomes too much different than they are a

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Speaker 1: different species. So there's seven species in the Pacific and

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Speaker 1: which is one genus, and there's only one species in

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Speaker 1: the Atlantic, which is a separate genus UM. But river

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Speaker 1: to river, they're all they're all different, and they have

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Speaker 1: different skills. You know, if you're from a river that

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Speaker 1: has big waterfalls. You're a great jumper, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're stronger, if you have faster currents. I mean, I've

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Speaker 1: seen I've seen salmon making their way in rivers that

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Speaker 1: are so where the current is so strong that they're

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Speaker 1: really just gaining a centimeter at a time. But they're unstoppable.

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Speaker 1: They never give up. I've seen them jump waterfalls and

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Speaker 1: not make it over the top, all down on the

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Speaker 1: rocks and kind of shake it off and jump up

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Speaker 1: again and keep trying until they get it. Um incredible determination.

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Speaker 1: And once they enter the river they stop eating. And

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Speaker 1: this is nature solving a problem because you know, salmon

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Speaker 1: eats so much at sea, then if it goes back

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Speaker 1: in the river and continues eating like that, the river

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Speaker 1: will be destroyed. They'll eat out the whole river, they'll

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Speaker 1: eat out the baby salmon, they'll eat out everything there

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Speaker 1: is to eat. And so instead they just stop eating

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Speaker 1: when they arrived in the river, which raises all kinds

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Speaker 1: of interesting questions for people who fly fish for salmon

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Speaker 1: and rivers. Why do they take the fly the whole

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Speaker 1: other subject of debate because they're not eating um, which

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Speaker 1: is why salmon flies don't look like food. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you if you're fishing for a trout, use a

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00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,600
Speaker 1: fly that looks like something that they eat. But you

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00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 1: can do all sorts of weird, crazy things for salmon

291
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,840
Speaker 1: flies because they're not looking for food. Um. They completely

292
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 1: changed their bodies. They changed from a silver skin. They

293
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 1: developed a spawning look. The males, Uh, they become bright

294
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Speaker 1: red and get humps on their backs and hook noses

295
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 1: and all sorts of weird things. Become this very strange

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Speaker 1: looking animal. Um. And it takes a tremendous amount of

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00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 1: energy to do that. The the red and the skin

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Speaker 1: is the pigment from the flesh when salmon. After salmon

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Speaker 1: has spawned, they're like an Albano. There's no pigment in

300
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Speaker 1: the flesh is white. Um. So they use everything they've

301
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Speaker 1: got to get there, and their last energy is spawning

302
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Speaker 1: and then they've done what they had to do when

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Speaker 1: they roll over and die. Yeah, it's it's like the

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00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: story was written by um. You know what what we're

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00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 1: talking about. How salmon are all are uh all created equal?

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Speaker 1: You make this interesting point where you know, looking at him,

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Speaker 1: if you're just like a passive observer, a casual observer,

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Speaker 1: you look at salmon from two different river systems, and

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Speaker 1: and think like, oh, you know, it's a soak I

310
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Speaker 1: or it's a king what the hell's the difference? But

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Speaker 1: you point out how Bristol Bay. I think you're talking

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Speaker 1: about fairly recent market trends were you're talking about commercial

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Speaker 1: fishermen in Bristol Bay, they'll sell their soaki salmon for

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Speaker 1: about a dollar a pound, and they'll sell their king

315
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:46,199
Speaker 1: salmon for about fifty cents a pound Copper River. The

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Speaker 1: sakis sold the same species of fish, but asaki that's

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Speaker 1: gonna head up the Copper River might go for two

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00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: dollars and fifty cents a pound as opposed to a

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Speaker 1: dollar a pound in Bristol Bay. And then a salmon

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Speaker 1: headed up the Copper might fetch around two fifty pound

321
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Speaker 1: as opposed to fifty cents a pound in Bristol Bay.

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Speaker 1: And you point out that at those rates, it's plausible

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Speaker 1: to catch a king salmon that is worth to that

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Speaker 1: fisherman about two bucks. How do you begin to explain, like, like,

325
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Speaker 1: how do you explain those priced discrepancies? Um? Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: And also another question is how do you explain the

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Speaker 1: discrepancy between what the fisherman is being paid and what

328
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,240
Speaker 1: you're paying, what they're paying at the pike market. Yeah,

329
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Speaker 1: that's definitely another that's that's true of a lot of

330
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: a lot of fish. What do you hear what they're

331
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Speaker 1: getting for it and what what people are paying for

332
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,160
Speaker 1: it in restaurants, you realize that someone's making an awful

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00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 1: lot of money somewhere, right. But the reason why I

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00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:58,560
Speaker 1: chose these two particular fisheries to go out on, I mean,

335
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Speaker 1: I can't help myself. I just said, any excuse to

336
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,679
Speaker 1: go out in a commercial fishery, I go. But the

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00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 1: one that I did in Bristol bay Um was a

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Speaker 1: you know, there were set dators there. They're guild letters

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00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: in both cases, but set Ators is a very low

340
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,919
Speaker 1: investment kind of fishery. They go out in these aluminum

341
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: skips and they hauling the fish. They they don't take

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Speaker 1: good care of. And the guy I went with, Allie

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Speaker 1: Olsen uh using Montana sheep share. I don't know. You've

344
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 1: probably seen these guys at work. It's a it's a

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00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,919
Speaker 1: tough it's a tough job in itself. They discovered that

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00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,120
Speaker 1: in the off season there was money to be made

347
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Speaker 1: in Bristol Bay. So he gets a bunch of young

348
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Speaker 1: guys from around Montana to go up with him. And

349
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Speaker 1: these guys have never been on a boat before, and

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00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: they're they're lost that they don't know what a bo is,

351
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Speaker 1: what a stirred is. Um they call a line or

352
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 1: rope um. But they earned a few thousand dollars, which

353
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Speaker 1: you know, they earned enough money for a down payment

354
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: and a simple home in Montana, which they could never

355
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,919
Speaker 1: do with what they were doing in Montana. But they

356
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,239
Speaker 1: go out, and you go out for like fifteen hours. Uh,

357
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Speaker 1: I mean, the the regulators will say, you know there's

358
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: an opening in it's fifteen hours or it's twenty hours,

359
00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 1: whatever it is. You fish the whole time. Um. And

360
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: it's Alaska in the summertime, so there's no nighttime. And

361
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: you know, they're yanking these things out of the nets

362
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Speaker 1: and throwing them on the deck and they're stepping on

363
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: him and kicking him and stuff, and take him over

364
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: to the tender and throw them into these canvas bags

365
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 1: and they take them away. Completely different from the fishery

366
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Speaker 1: that I went to. The drift net fishery I went

367
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Speaker 1: to in uh Cortinville, Alaska, which is the Copper River

368
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Speaker 1: salmon which they catch out in open ocean in the

369
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 1: Gulf of Alaska. UM. When the regulators have found that

370
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Speaker 1: enough salmon have made it into the Copper River to spawn,

371
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Speaker 1: you know, they'll get an opener for fifteen hours or something. Um.

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Speaker 1: But these are like real um. Well they're small ships,

373
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Speaker 1: you know, they're they're one person operations about thirty ft

374
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:33,959
Speaker 1: spooling and spoiling the front and um. They fish these

375
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: things with great care. They take them out of the

376
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Speaker 1: net and they bleed them and the gills as they

377
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Speaker 1: take them out, and they slide them into an ice hold.

378
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Speaker 1: Nowadays some are using holds with a slush instead of

379
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: ice because it's surrounds it better and they take really

380
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Speaker 1: good care of it. And that's the difference in price.

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Speaker 1: And there's also an issue that you spoke about about

382
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Speaker 1: the condition of the fish that's entering the river. Yeah. Yeah, well,

383
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: I mean as I said that fishing different rivers are different.

384
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Speaker 1: And a river like the Copper River, which is a big,

385
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: tough long river, uh, it has big tough fish. Um.

386
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Speaker 1: The more the fish has to go through to get

387
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: to the spawning ground, the higher quality of fishing is

388
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: a lot of the Bristol Bay rivers are are fairly

389
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: small rivers and uh don't have to go through a

390
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 1: lot once they get into Bristol Bay to get up

391
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: to their spawning grounds, and so they're not they're not

392
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: as big or as strong as fat and uh, I

393
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: mean there's a there's different quality of fish in different rivers.

394
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Speaker 1: Did you, Mark, did you taste test those two fish?

395
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Speaker 1: Could you tell? You don't have to? I did, but

396
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: you don't. You could look at them until you like that. Um,

397
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: but just like the amount of fat coming off them. Yeah,

398
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: just you know the whole way that they look. You

399
00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: know that. I mean, Copper River salmon are beautiful. Um.

400
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: Also you know, I have to say in fairness that

401
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 1: the Copper River people are brilliant marketers. Um. And you know,

402
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: I remember I I got nowhere on this, but I

403
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: I have roots in Gloucester, Massachusetts, and I was trying

404
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: to convince Gloucester fishermen to go out to Cordova and

405
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: just check out how the Copper River fishery has done,

406
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: how they market their fish. You know, they've managed to

407
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,920
Speaker 1: create in people's heads the idea that that's a species

408
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:51,359
Speaker 1: of fish. Yes, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it has a

409
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: little to do with the fact that it's the first

410
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: round in Alaska, so it opens the season. But it's

411
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: also and it also has to do the fact that

412
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: they guarantee the quality that is fished really carefully. Um.

413
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: But it's also just plain old marketing. Yeah. You know,

414
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of American readers, you know, when

415
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: when they're gonna tuck into a book about salmon, I

416
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: think they're expecting, um to see a bunch of stuff

417
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: about Alaska, Right, But you also spend time discussing salmon

418
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: fisheries and the history of salmon in Japan, the history

419
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 1: of salmon in Europe. Uh, can you give a snapshot

420
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: of of of salmon as a global resource, like like

421
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: who has them? Who don't? Yeah, it's a it's a

422
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 1: northern fish, and they're also in the Southern hemisphere. But

423
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be. They're fake. They were planted

424
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 1: in the places like New Zealand and Australia and Chile.

425
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: Um not there by nature. By nature, they're a northern

426
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: they're uniquely all salmon are uniquely Northern hemisphere. Um. A

427
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: salmon cannot live in water that is over sixty eight degrees.

428
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: You can't live in it and can't reproduce in it,

429
00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: So that dictates uh going rivers that are fairly far

430
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: north UM. And also it's one of the problems about

431
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: climate change. UM. The Pacific salmon are um from California

432
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 1: to Alaska and uh uh in northern Japan, Kaida and

433
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: uh in Pacific Russia, the kom Chaka, the com Chaca Peninsula,

434
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: the kom Chaca Peninsula and Alaska are the two healthiest

435
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: salmon runs in the world. And the reason for that

436
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: one of these two places have in common. They're hardly

437
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 1: any people. Uh, short growing seasons, so there's almost no

438
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: agricult here UM. So the rivers are just undisturbed and wild. UM.

439
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: That's interesting is you know the thing we've talked about,

440
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: an observation I've had about wildlife conservation UM. That and

441
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: if you go back in American history a bit, you

442
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 1: see that we had wilderness and wild things sort of

443
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: in spite of our best efforts to get rid of it,

444
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: Like we just it took us a while of conquered all, right,

445
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 1: Like we sort of had the appetite and intention to

446
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: go get it all, we just hadn't gotten around to

447
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: it and eventually got around to it, and now we

448
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: have oftentimes the wild things that we have and the

449
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: wildlife that we have is now because we've made a

450
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: very conscious decision to have and we understand that it's

451
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: costly to have it, but we insist on having it

452
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 1: and we make sacrifices to have it. Is Russia, you

453
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: hear about the salmon in the brown bears and in

454
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: in Russia and Siberia. Are they still in the phase

455
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: of they just have it because they haven't gotten around

456
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: to killing it off yet, or are they sacrificing for

457
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: it now? The um and there is serious commercial fishing

458
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: going on in the Kumbchotka and other parts of Russia.

459
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: And also the area is very rich in oil, and

460
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: so far they've stayed away from the Kumbchatka, but there

461
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: are some areas near there that we're very good salmon

462
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: places but have been damaged by oil and mineral exploration. UM.

463
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: The Yeah, it's just it's a remote you know. It's like,

464
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: why don't we all move to Alaska? I don't know,

465
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 1: we don't. That's what saves Alaska. I think they like

466
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 1: it that way. How are the runs in Japan are

467
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 1: there good salmon runs in Japan. There are so there

468
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: are some good in the in in the north, mainly

469
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: in Hakaida, which is the northernmost island. Like you can

470
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: walk out and stand on the bank and look out,

471
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: and there's a bunch of salmon spawning there in the

472
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: in the in the uh uh in cities, you can

473
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: see the salmon spawning in the rivers there. Uh And

474
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: they have a unique species called messiou or sometimes in

475
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 1: English called cherry salmon, because it runs around the time

476
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: of cherry blossoms. What's it most what? What's what's it

477
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: most closely related to of our specific salmon? Oh? I

478
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: don't know. It's um maybe like a saki or something.

479
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's a it's a very um. It's

480
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: a very good eating salmon um and um uh kind

481
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: of a unique species. It shows up a little bit

482
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: in other places in Asia, a little bit in the

483
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: com Chotka and a little bit in Korea, but it's

484
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: mainly a Japanese species. Um. There's uh. There's a lot

485
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: of problems in the Japanese salmon fishery, like something like

486
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: of the wild salmon in Japan have some hatchery DNA

487
00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: in them. That's not good. When you were when you

488
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: were mapping your book out and trying to think of

489
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 1: what areas to write about and what salmon to pay

490
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: attention to. I'm asking this as just a person that

491
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,920
Speaker 1: grew up as a kid in the Great Lakes. Did

492
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: you have what were your considerations around talking about your

493
00:33:53,760 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: reluctancies or ambitions to talk about the make believe salmon? Like,

494
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: you know, we have several species of salmon and the

495
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 1: Great Lakes that wemoved there. Do you do you feel

496
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: that it's it's irrelevant to the conversation. Does it inform

497
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: I do? I do feel that it's irrelevant. It doesn't.

498
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: Um it doesn't speak to the preservation of wild runs.

499
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: It's like it's like farm salmon. I mean, there's a

500
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: lot of things you can say pro and con about

501
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: farm salmon, but one thing that's clear is it has

502
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,760
Speaker 1: nothing to do with whether salmon while salmon will survive.

503
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a completely different thing. Um well,

504
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: except that it does have something to do with while

505
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: salmon surviving because it could possibly make them not survived.

506
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: Correct the part the part, Yeah, Okay, we're getting into that.

507
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: An hour later, let's wait a second. That's wait because

508
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: what I didn't talk I do have that question here

509
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: and answer your original question about places. Um, I didn't

510
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: get around to talking about Atlantic salmon um, which is

511
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 1: uh New England and Maritime Canada and Newfoundland and uh

512
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: Iceland and Britain and Ireland and Norway and part of

513
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: Russia used to be a lot more. You know, it

514
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 1: used to be Poland and France. And that's what I

515
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: couldn't believe that Spain used to have salmon. Yeah, northern,

516
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: northern they were in Spain, um Alicia um. Yeah. Franco um,

517
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: who I absolutely loathed because I'm showing my age, but

518
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,200
Speaker 1: I actually covered Franco as a reporter and he was

519
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: a monster. He's a dedicated fly fisherman. Oh he was. Yeah. Yeah,

520
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: this is this is a good way of disproving the claim.

521
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: You know, the fly fisherman, good people, really good people,

522
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:18,359
Speaker 1: fly fisherman. Franka was a fly fisherman, and you know,

523
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: the way he ran Spain. He could do whatever he

524
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: wanted and so he uh he tried to preserve northern rivers,

525
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: which is where the salmon were, because he wanted to

526
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 1: fish in them. Um. Well to be honest, that's a

527
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 1: lot of UM, that's a strong conservation incentive for a

528
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: lot of people. Yes, And I don't, I don't, I

529
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 1: don't discount it right right, Well it um, you know

530
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 1: it is uh, it's what's made a lot of fishermen

531
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: and hunters, um, environmentalists. It's good that works. Yeah, I'll

532
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: take it. I'll take it right right. Um. But the

533
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 1: thing that struck me with Atlantic salmon A few things struck.

534
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,439
Speaker 1: But first of all, Atlantic salmon, and if you've never

535
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: fished for it is really something else, something spectacular. It's um,

536
00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,759
Speaker 1: it's just this furious wild animal on your line there,

537
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,880
Speaker 1: leaping and charging from one side of the river to

538
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: the other, and just an unbelievable fish. Um. And so

539
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, sports fishing for wild salmon has always been

540
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: extremely popular and really at the roots of fly fishing. Um.

541
00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 1: But New England has almost no salmon. You know. I

542
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:55,160
Speaker 1: was I was born and raised in Hartford by the

543
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 1: Connecticut River. The Connecticut River used to be one of

544
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 1: the great salmon was of North America. And nobody mentioned

545
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 1: that when I was growing up. I had no idea.

546
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: Seven was never talked about, seven was never eaten. You

547
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,960
Speaker 1: know in New England. Now you get it, but you

548
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: know it used to be if you went into a

549
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: fish market in New England or a famous seafood restaurant

550
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: or something, there was no salmon. Um because salmon wasn't

551
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,120
Speaker 1: a local fish. But salmon was a local fish in

552
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: the eighteenth and seventeenth century. Um. And the only place

553
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:34,320
Speaker 1: where it's left now is in Maine. Um. They're trying

554
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,959
Speaker 1: to bring back the panob Scott River. Um. They tried

555
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:44,680
Speaker 1: to bring me back the Connecticut River and failed. And Um.

556
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: What's been happening in New England, which I have also

557
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: found in Ireland and Scotland and Norway and all the

558
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: Atlantic salmon places. There's almost no commercial fishing anymore. Um.

559
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,880
Speaker 1: And yet the stock keeps declining. And they tell me

560
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 1: they're all going to see and just not many are

561
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 1: coming back, and fewer and fewer returns every year. And

562
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:15,160
Speaker 1: the reason for this is climate change. The reason is

563
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: carbon dioxide, which it turns out loves water. So about

564
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: a third of the carbon dioxide that's produced on land

565
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: ends up in the ocean, and it impacts on the

566
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: hydrogen content of the ocean, and that impacts on the

567
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: ability of certain small animals to grow like zooplankton and

568
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 1: capelin little fish that salmon and cod feed on and um,

569
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: so they're smaller, so there's less to eat. So the

570
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: Atlantic Ocean uh is having less and less carrying capacity.

571
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: It's losing it's a ability to feed the animals that

572
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: live in the ocean. That is the scariest thing I've

573
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: ever learned. I mean, my god, if if the ocean

574
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 1: can no longer provide enough food for fish, we're sunk. Uh.

575
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 1: And that's climate change. When you can you sketch for

576
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,279
Speaker 1: people a little bit, Well, let me approach this a

577
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,040
Speaker 1: different way. If you're doing a book about the demise

578
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: of something, you have an obligation to show where it

579
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: began and how things looked when it began, because you

580
00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 1: can't understand. Yeah, like any movie about the fall of

581
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: someone needs to show someone at their height or else.

582
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: The whole story it's kind of pointless. Um. And I

583
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: think that like when you get into something like um,

584
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 1: you know, like Buffalo, there's all these stories that that

585
00:40:56,280 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: were still familiar with of herds that took days to pass,

586
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 1: and you know, the clouds of them that look like

587
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: shadows from clouds moving across the landscape and no, no, no, no,

588
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,279
Speaker 1: what are how good was it with salmon? I mean

589
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: you could you could just pick a spot that you

590
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: happen to take a shine to during your research. But

591
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: is there a way to show people like how good

592
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: it was somewhere? Well, yeah, and a lot of places,

593
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: I mean in in uh the Columbia River in northern

594
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: California and New England, um, and all over Europe, I

595
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 1: mean all over Europe, the Rhine River. Um. You know,

596
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 1: salmon were so prevalent that you just saw them. You

597
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 1: people in Paris in the sixteenth century you could see

598
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: salmon leaping in the scent um. That's how they got

599
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: their name is Roman soldiers marching through France. Uh would

600
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,720
Speaker 1: see these fish that were always leaping out of the water.

601
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:07,400
Speaker 1: And uh that's what samo means is leaper. Huh. So

602
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: they were, they were just they were a common site

603
00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 1: in in rivers. To what to what extent did indigenous

604
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:23,439
Speaker 1: peoples rely on on salmon in in North America? Who

605
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: were the salmon cultures, Well, the the cultures of New

606
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: England and Maritime Canada and um, you know, Alaska and

607
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 1: British Columbia. Uh, Idaho and Washington and um Oregon in

608
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: northern California. These were all cultures that were centered on

609
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 1: salmon um and you you can still see what that

610
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: means if you visit Indigenous people in Alaska in the summertime,

611
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:01,839
Speaker 1: when they're at their summer camp, uh, putting up their

612
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:04,920
Speaker 1: food supply for the rest of the year, you know,

613
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: smoking catching salmon and smoking it, having a supply for

614
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: the year. I mean to a Native American, Uh, I'm

615
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: not sure what seems dumber the idea of fly fishing. Generally,

616
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,960
Speaker 1: they don't think much of or worse than that catching release.

617
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: You know, I'm not knocking catching release. I think it's

618
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: a good idea, But to to to a Native American,

619
00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 1: you know, if you're gonna release it, why catch it?

620
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,960
Speaker 1: It's a it's a it's a good argument. Why why

621
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 1: why messled it? Right? The purpose of fishing is to

622
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,520
Speaker 1: catch a fish. I mean, that's that's the odd thing

623
00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: about fly fishing. The purpose of fly fishing is to

624
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: make it as impossible as you can to catch a

625
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:56,319
Speaker 1: fish so that you can feel really good about it

626
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: when you get it. Can you talk about the first

627
00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:03,439
Speaker 1: caught saying that the first caught salmon ceremonies, Like what

628
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: what that is? Yeah, And it's an interesting thing that

629
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: almost actually every salmon culture, I mean in in in Pacific, Russia,

630
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: and the original indigenous people in Japan and all the

631
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:24,279
Speaker 1: indigenous North Americans, all these people had a ceremony for

632
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:29,320
Speaker 1: the first salmon of the season that was caught. Um.

633
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: And the idea of this uh ceremony was to thank

634
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: them for coming back. Um. Because in in their culture, um,

635
00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: you know, in our modern scientific culture, you know, the

636
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: fish are born in the river and they get to

637
00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: a bigger size and they go out to the ocean,

638
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: then they come back to spawn. But in their in

639
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 1: their culture, the salmon come in. Why did they come in?

640
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,279
Speaker 1: They come in so that we can have a few

641
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,400
Speaker 1: to eat, and then they go back out again, and

642
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: then next year they come in again, and we have

643
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: to thank them for that. Um. Now, in fact, we

644
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 1: know that it's actually not the same salmon coming in,

645
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 1: that there are different generations, but that was the original

646
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:19,759
Speaker 1: way of looking at it. And you have to thank

647
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: them for coming back. If you don't thank them for

648
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 1: coming back next year, they won't come. Can you, uh

649
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 1: explain what a stock is of salmon. Like in your

650
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: book you say that of salmon stocks are headed towards extinction.

651
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,799
Speaker 1: You don't mean you don't mean of the salmon species.

652
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 1: What is the stock? It's a subspecies. As I was

653
00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,359
Speaker 1: saying before, there's the salmon are slightly different in every river.

654
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,720
Speaker 1: So that's uh. You know, like Copper River is a stock.

655
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: They're saki or kings, but they're they're a stock. Um

656
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: it's uh. I mean this is true of other fish too,

657
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 1: but with with salmon, it's I identified usually by river.

658
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: How many stocks have we lost so far? Uh? I

659
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: mean can you even say? No? I I can't accept that. Uh.

660
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: And it depends where you're talking about. I mean in

661
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 1: in the Pacific Northwest we've we've lost over half. In

662
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: in New England. In New England we've lost most. But

663
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: it globally? Was it fair to say that have we

664
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:42,759
Speaker 1: globally lost hundreds of stocks of salmon? Probably? But um,

665
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: look some good news some of us coming back um

666
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: as rivers are getting cleaned up. Uh. Uh. Famine has

667
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: come back into a lot of rivers, especially in Europe. Uh.

668
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 1: It's they've out at it in the Thames. Um and

669
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 1: a lot of British rivers that were thought of as

670
00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:12,240
Speaker 1: dead are almost dead have come back. Rivers and France

671
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 1: are coming back. Um you know. But part of the

672
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 1: problem is what scientists called shifting baselines. So you have

673
00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: a you have a stock and it's in real it's

674
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: and it's in really bad shape, and you sound the alarm,

675
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: and you struggle for years and years, and you get

676
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,840
Speaker 1: the river cleaned up, maybe you take down some dams,

677
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,560
Speaker 1: you get the river working again, and now you have

678
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,919
Speaker 1: like maybe a quarter as many fish as you had

679
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 1: before all of this trouble started. And it's pronounced the success,

680
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 1: but it's really not a success, you know. I mean,

681
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:58,239
Speaker 1: we really need to do is to get back to

682
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: uh centuries ago. And so the problem is that our

683
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: goal needs to be things that we no longer remember,

684
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 1: things that we only know from stories and myths, that

685
00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:16,320
Speaker 1: no one's ever seen. You you describe yourself as an

686
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 1: environmental writer. Have you always looked at have you as

687
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 1: regarded yourself as an environmental writer? Or is that a

688
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: new way of describing yourself? Uh? Well, I do a

689
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: lot of things, but I have always, from time to time,

690
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: uh done environmental writing, starting when I was a newspaper

691
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: Record Reporter, and I covered nuclear energy issues opposition to

692
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 1: nuclear energy, and um, I've always uh covered environmental issues

693
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:54,759
Speaker 1: from from time to time. Somebody an interview went to

694
00:48:54,960 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: and somebody said, uh so, uh you think that the

695
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: uh the the environment is really uh um, it's it's

696
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: something that you really like. Huh, Yes I do, I said.

697
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, you know, I like air. Uh. I

698
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 1: was gonna ask you more about, um, sort of what

699
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:28,239
Speaker 1: your obligations if you're an environmental writer. I was going

700
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: to ask you about your obligations. But you just brought

701
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: up something that I want to distract ourselves with for

702
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 1: a second. Uh used to write an opposition to nuclear power.

703
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: It's to me, it's becoming um. To me, it's again

704
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:53,800
Speaker 1: becoming increasingly seductive. Uh huh. But you know, here's here's

705
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,800
Speaker 1: the thing. Oh god, I'm talking like Joe Biden. Here's

706
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,720
Speaker 1: the thing. Well, then you'll have to you'll have to

707
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: say something that doesn't make any sense after um. The

708
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 1: the hydroelectric industry, damns. Their whole argument is, well, this

709
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: is better than fossil fuel or nuclear energy. And I

710
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:27,280
Speaker 1: think that's a false argument. Um damns are destroying rivers

711
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 1: destroying rivers is going to unravel the natural order and

712
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: unravel the planet. So it's it's not an option either.

713
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 1: So why do we pretend you know that you can't

714
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: produce energy without being destructive. I mean, there are alternative

715
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: energies and they're becoming, um bigger and bigger, more successful.

716
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:54,960
Speaker 1: I think have you ever seen it? Have you ever

717
00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 1: been visited a big wind farm? You think that? I mean,

718
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:02,359
Speaker 1: come on, it's horrible. Oh you mean that if they're

719
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 1: not a nice thing. No, No, they're horrible. They're horrible

720
00:51:04,960 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: for a while, they're horrible for wildlife. Yeah, it's a

721
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 1: massive development. I think you have to cover all of

722
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 1: England with solar to power England, or seventy of the

723
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: landscape or some staggering statistic I can't remember what it is. Um. Yeah,

724
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:25,800
Speaker 1: I mean you you do a combination of these things.

725
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: And you know the lesson there with wind power is

726
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:36,319
Speaker 1: that you try not to do um large installations. Um.

727
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: That's good, you keep it, keep the scale down. Yeah,

728
00:51:39,480 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 1: I don't. We'll have to have you on again today

729
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: because I want someone to convince me that I kind

730
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 1: of want someone to convince me that nuclear doesn't need

731
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,439
Speaker 1: to be revisited. But it's it's like I said, it's

732
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,560
Speaker 1: to me, it's increasingly seductive. Listen, this is this is

733
00:51:53,640 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: my My whole attitude about environmentalism is that I think

734
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: that environmentalist spend too much time talking about stopping things

735
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 1: instead of fixing things. That. Yeah, um, that's a good point.

736
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:18,480
Speaker 1: They get, they get a reputation. So there are some

737
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 1: real problems with nuclear energy. If you want to have

738
00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 1: nuclear energy, you have to solve those problems. It's just

739
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: like the same thing with fish farming. I don't I

740
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: don't say that there should not be farm fish. I

741
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 1: did say that at one point actually in my COG book,

742
00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: but I've changed my mind on that. I've spent a

743
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: lot of time talking at fish farmers. I do believe

744
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:44,240
Speaker 1: that they are sincerely interested in finding solutions to these problems,

745
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: and you have to fix it because it's a worthwhile

746
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: contribution if you fix it. Um. I sometimes wonder, you

747
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: know the pebble mine, you know, with the pebble mine.

748
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:55,640
Speaker 1: I got a whole question coming up about that. I

749
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: just had a conversation about that with the last two

750
00:52:58,040 --> 00:53:01,720
Speaker 1: days with surprising individuals. But yes, well aware of pebble

751
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 1: mind Okay, So I've been opposing the pebble mind for years.

752
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:09,279
Speaker 1: But you know, it occurs to me that we may

753
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,520
Speaker 1: have the wrong approach here. Maybe we shouldn't say you

754
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 1: can't have this mind. Maybe we should say, if you're

755
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: going to have this mind, you have to do it

756
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: in a way that you don't put Bristol Bay at risk.

757
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:25,319
Speaker 1: You have to fix your way of doing things. Well,

758
00:53:25,360 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 1: they would just come and tell you that they already

759
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: have and that there is no risk. Well you know

760
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: that that's now you're talking about the problem of reality. Yeah, yeah,

761
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 1: but um, yeah, and all the things that happened when

762
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 1: you try to be reasonable people who don't want to

763
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: be reasonable, and it uh, fish farmers actually do want

764
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 1: to be reasonable. But I think it's always I think

765
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: it's always worth a try. I think, Um. The guy

766
00:53:55,960 --> 00:54:01,839
Speaker 1: I dedicate this book too or I Are Slender, came

767
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 1: from a commercial fishing family and it was a brilliant fundraiser,

768
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: and he went around the world raising money for fund

769
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: and then he would go to commercial salmon fishing fisherman

770
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 1: and he didn't say, you know, you're doing something terrible,

771
00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 1: You're destroying things. You gotta stop. He said, how are

772
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: you fishing? Let me see your gnats, let me And

773
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 1: he took a real interest in what they were doing

774
00:54:28,080 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 1: because he was interested in commercial fishing. It was his background.

775
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,480
Speaker 1: And then he would talk to them and then at

776
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:35,960
Speaker 1: some point he'd say, okay, how much money? Did want

777
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:41,880
Speaker 1: to stop fishing? And it mostly worked a few there

778
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,360
Speaker 1: were a few people already never talked out of fishing,

779
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 1: but it it mostly worked. And this guy, I loved

780
00:54:49,080 --> 00:54:52,080
Speaker 1: this man and he was to me, he was a model.

781
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: Or he died while I was working on the book.

782
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: He was a model of what an environmentalist should be.

783
00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 1: I would like to take you know, young environmentalists and

784
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 1: introduced them to Worry and have them talk to them about,

785
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: you know, how you get things done, because you don't

786
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:12,319
Speaker 1: always get things done by antagonizing everybody. And you know,

787
00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,960
Speaker 1: the CEO of Marine Harvest in Scotland, one of the

788
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 1: big fishing fish farming outfits, said to me, you know

789
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 1: I talked to environmentalists and I hear them out. And

790
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 1: I know he did, because I know I know a

791
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:29,160
Speaker 1: number of environmentalists that he's talked to. But he said,

792
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:31,640
Speaker 1: you know, if I talked to somebody and they say

793
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 1: fish farming has to be stopped. They don't have anything

794
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: to say to them. And you know that's the problem.

795
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 1: It's a real dialogue stopper. You're evil. You have to go.

796
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: Where does the dialogue go from there? The reason earlier

797
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,800
Speaker 1: before I got off on asked you about nuclear energy,

798
00:55:56,239 --> 00:55:59,920
Speaker 1: I was asking about self identifying. By the way, for

799
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 1: the record, I did not necessarily a pose nuclear energy.

800
00:56:03,280 --> 00:56:06,359
Speaker 1: I wrote about people who opposed nuclear Okay, that's that's

801
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 1: a that's an important distinction. Um. The reason I brought

802
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,920
Speaker 1: up being an environmental writer is I if there's a

803
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,200
Speaker 1: I don't mean this, I'm not directing this at you.

804
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,800
Speaker 1: But if someone identifies first and foremost as an environmental

805
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,279
Speaker 1: writer and then they write about a subject like let's say,

806
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: I don't know they're writing about wild horses, or they're

807
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: writing about predators that they're writing about salmon um, I'll

808
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 1: often wonder is their subject is the subject they've chosen

809
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: to focus in on, is it a is it a

810
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:43,839
Speaker 1: sort of proxy for something else that they're getting at,

811
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: or is the interest really on the thing they're focused on.

812
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 1: Because I'll often find some writers will no matter what

813
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,239
Speaker 1: subject they're taking, I know where they'll fall on it,

814
00:56:58,520 --> 00:57:01,880
Speaker 1: and I know what parts of it I'll accentuate because

815
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 1: I know that they're not actually talking about the thing

816
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 1: they're talking about. They're talking about the other thing, and

817
00:57:07,239 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 1: they're using the thing as a tool to raise a

818
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 1: broader point. I I usually do that. I'm almost never

819
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 1: talking about the thing I seem to be talking about,

820
00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:21,640
Speaker 1: and you're open about it. Yeah. Yeah, I wrote a

821
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:26,720
Speaker 1: book about baseball in the Dominican Republic and uh, both

822
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: the Eastern Stars, and it really wasn't about baseball at all.

823
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: It was about the US relationship with the Dominican Republican. Yeah,

824
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:39,720
Speaker 1: I got you. Yeah. Do you do you feel that

825
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 1: when you if you if you care, if you're a writer,

826
00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:44,480
Speaker 1: like you have a certain amount of power as a writer,

827
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:46,680
Speaker 1: especially when you have an audience, and you have an audience,

828
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:53,240
Speaker 1: UM and your purpose driven writer? Right, you want to

829
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:55,960
Speaker 1: like like you want to affect change, you'd like to

830
00:57:56,000 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 1: affect change. Do you feel that you need to be um?

831
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:06,160
Speaker 1: Do you ever feel a poll about being hyperbolic and

832
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:12,680
Speaker 1: when you're sounding the alarm because of overselling a problem,

833
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 1: because it's more likely to create and to drive an

834
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: impetus for change, Or do its party. You feel that, Man,

835
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: I need to be absolutely frank and truthful because I

836
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: have to deliver truth or you trying to drive action.

837
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 1: And if you need to fudge truth to drive action,

838
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: that's okay. No, I'm not into fudging truth. I think

839
00:58:36,280 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 1: that you know, if you do that, you know, you

840
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: can rally a lot of people. But you know at

841
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: a certain point they're gonna say, wait a minute, this

842
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: guy's I don't no nonsense. I can't believe anything he says. Um.

843
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 1: I I so the best I can. I try. I

844
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: try to be truthful and I and I try to

845
00:58:55,560 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: be reasonable. And this book, uh, probably more than any

846
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 1: other book, is making some fairly bold statements. And to

847
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:09,920
Speaker 1: be honest, it is because I am absolutely panicked about

848
00:59:09,960 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: what climate change is doing. Uh. It's uh the impact

849
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:19,480
Speaker 1: it's going to have, what it's going to do to

850
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 1: our lives and to our children's lives is just so huge. Um.

851
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: And you know, we're confronted with people who are not

852
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: facing up to that, and so you know, sometimes you

853
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: just have to scream, yeah, you say, I think that,

854
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:40,200
Speaker 1: like you acknowledge some things. I guess you don't do

855
00:59:40,240 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 1: what I was asking if you ever feel necessary to

856
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 1: do because you acknowledge some things where you talk about

857
00:59:45,520 --> 00:59:49,440
Speaker 1: how you cite these years in the in the past

858
00:59:49,480 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 1: decade where there were record runs of sacks like these

859
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 1: phenomenal sac I runs, and that those phenomenal ski runs

860
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: insided with the hottest years we had on record. And

861
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,919
Speaker 1: I think other people might look and say, well, how

862
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: could salmon in Alaska suffer from warming temperatures if we

863
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:18,360
Speaker 1: used to have these massive salmon runs in California the

864
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,520
Speaker 1: Sunshine State. Um. I think that people can look at

865
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 1: all this and probably talk themselves out of there seeming

866
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 1: to be a problem we're having, like king salmon runs

867
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 1: go down, but we're having these records pink salmon runs

868
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: in some areas, Like like how can you know? How

869
01:00:36,440 --> 01:00:38,000
Speaker 1: can it all? How does it fit together in a

870
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 1: way where people can't look at it and think that

871
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:44,080
Speaker 1: we're okay after all? You know, if you if you

872
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 1: talk to scientists, I mean real scientists, which I love

873
01:00:48,520 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: to do and politicians and government people hate to do.

874
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,320
Speaker 1: The thing about real scientists is that they give you

875
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 1: no absolute I mean, try talking to some epidemiologists about

876
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: the coronavirus. For example. You know that there's things we know,

877
01:01:07,280 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: there's things we don't know this, you know, I mean

878
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 1: the most common answer you ever get from a scientist

879
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 1: is maybe you know yeah. Yeah. My brothers, my brothers

880
01:01:19,480 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: are both scientists, and I'll often ask them, like about

881
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: their research. I'll ask him, what do you hope happens? Yeah? Right.

882
01:01:29,400 --> 01:01:32,000
Speaker 1: They take that as an insulting question, what do you

883
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:38,840
Speaker 1: what do I hope happens? Right? Right, So it's it's uh,

884
01:01:39,000 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 1: it's it's very uh, it's very complicated. And um. You

885
01:01:46,560 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: know one thing I can tell you though about you know,

886
01:01:50,360 --> 01:01:53,640
Speaker 1: warm years and good Alaskan salmon runs is last year

887
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 1: there was a great Alaskan salmon run and it was

888
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,439
Speaker 1: about the warmest year on record that Alaska ever had,

889
01:02:00,040 --> 01:02:04,800
Speaker 1: and you know what, a lot of those salmon died. Yeah,

890
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 1: so there was a good return, but a lot of fatality, right, yeah,

891
01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 1: fatality before spawning. Yeah, if if the if the water

892
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:19,240
Speaker 1: temperature goes above sixty eight degrees, they will not spawn.

893
01:02:19,320 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: They can't spawn, they can't live, which the salmon species

894
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:30,480
Speaker 1: seems to be the most dire you mean, in the

895
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:34,040
Speaker 1: most difficulty. Yeah, like like is it like our king's

896
01:02:34,200 --> 01:02:36,400
Speaker 1: kind of the most screwed right now in the Pacific.

897
01:02:36,760 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 1: Not not I was. I was gonna say Atlantic salmon,

898
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: there's about a million and a half Atlantic salmon left

899
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,200
Speaker 1: in the world. How can that be true? Man? And

900
01:02:46,760 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 1: you know when you think about sixty sixty million running

901
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: into Bristol Bay every June July, uh, one and a

902
01:02:55,400 --> 01:03:01,919
Speaker 1: half million total Atlantic salmon, it's there's are people. There's

903
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: more people in the Pugets you know, there's more people

904
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,240
Speaker 1: around Puget Sound in their Atlantic salmon left in the world.

905
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,920
Speaker 1: There were more farm salmon in a good farm uh

906
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 1: salmon farming operation than there are wild salmon in the

907
01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:23,400
Speaker 1: in the world Atlantic man, thus depressing that part of

908
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 1: So they're they're the ones that are really in the

909
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: in in the deepest trouble. Uh. As for other ones.

910
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 1: It depends where you're talking about. But by and large,

911
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:38,640
Speaker 1: king are not doing well. You know, chinook? Is it?

912
01:03:38,720 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 1: Is it well understood? Um? You know, I know there's

913
01:03:44,040 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 1: probably like there's like as you mentioned it as a

914
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:51,080
Speaker 1: litany of factors, But is it well understood where where

915
01:03:51,120 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: someone's gonna say, yeah, yeah, there's a dozen things. But

916
01:03:54,800 --> 01:03:58,360
Speaker 1: here's the real killer on King salmon, Like, here's the

917
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: real problem with kings am and are kind of the

918
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: main problem, like like what is it? Well, it depends

919
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: where you're talking about. I mean in the Columbia River

920
01:04:07,600 --> 01:04:14,040
Speaker 1: it's damns um. You know, the Columbia River system used

921
01:04:14,080 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 1: to be a great um king habitat and most of

922
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:27,920
Speaker 1: it is blocked now. And then northern California also, I've

923
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,240
Speaker 1: actually got a question about that. Mark Um. I grew

924
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 1: up on the banks of the Columbia in Vancouver. This

925
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:36,000
Speaker 1: is still the engineer. Ladies, gentlemen, he's quiet so far.

926
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:40,320
Speaker 1: The engineers better pay attention. He's been diligently. He's been

927
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 1: diligently engineering till now. He's been saving, saving it up.

928
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,520
Speaker 1: I I grew up on the Glombia River and we

929
01:04:47,560 --> 01:04:50,840
Speaker 1: took multiple field trips growing up to Bonneville, dam Um.

930
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:53,280
Speaker 1: I didn't learn anything about hydro electric power. But one

931
01:04:53,280 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 1: thing they were always super excited to show us was

932
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,400
Speaker 1: the fish ladders. And they've got big windows you can

933
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 1: look through at the ladders, and they they were always

934
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 1: trying to convince us everything's fine. Look at all these

935
01:05:03,760 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 1: uh these salmon are are doing great. So I fish ladders,

936
01:05:07,200 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 1: what's the deal. I'm guessing they're not very effective based

937
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: on what you're saying here. Well, Um, you know, some

938
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 1: fish ladders are are better than others. Um, some don't

939
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 1: work at all, and some work pretty well. It also

940
01:05:22,040 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: depends on the damn. Um. Uh, I mean getting over

941
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:30,800
Speaker 1: the Bonneville Is that the one you said you were on. Yeah, yeah,

942
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:36,120
Speaker 1: it's pretty tough getting over talent these uh, these gravity

943
01:05:36,240 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 1: damns you know in the Pacific Northwest, which are you know,

944
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 1: these are the largest hunks of concrete in the world. Um,

945
01:05:46,200 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 1: it's pretty tough getting over them. They some of them

946
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 1: work to a certain degree. Uh, some of them are

947
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 1: getting better. Some of them don't have them. A lot

948
01:05:55,800 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 1: of damns don't have any ladders at all. Um. And

949
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 1: then you know, nature has a kind of a nasty

950
01:06:02,280 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: way of adopting to our inventions. So uh, most fish

951
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:12,000
Speaker 1: ladders you'll find lots of marine mammals hanging out there

952
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:16,400
Speaker 1: because that's a good place to get fish to eat. Uh,

953
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 1: And they're just you know, they're just being set up

954
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 1: for the slaughter there. It's surprised me in your in

955
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 1: your book, it surprised me how you left the how

956
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 1: you seem to leave the door open a little bit too.

957
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:41,760
Speaker 1: Two doing some control on marine mammals, lethal control on

958
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 1: marine mammals. Yeah, you know, look, the thing is, now

959
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 1: that we've thoroughly screwed up the natural order, we're trying

960
01:06:54,200 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 1: to make it work again. You have to. And it

961
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 1: turns out it's really complex case. You know that everything

962
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 1: has unintended consequences and um uh it's just very hard

963
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:15,439
Speaker 1: to figure these things. Um. As someone who has been

964
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: I mean I read about it this in my book,

965
01:07:17,200 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: I know it. It's like, uh to be fishing for

966
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 1: salmon commercially and and watch. You know, in one case

967
01:07:24,840 --> 01:07:31,360
Speaker 1: it was like four seals just eat our entire net. Um.

968
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 1: So you know, you have to you have to find

969
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:43,000
Speaker 1: a balance. But in the balance, um, you know, everybody

970
01:07:43,040 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 1: loses a little and and wins a little. I I

971
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:53,240
Speaker 1: I did some writing about uh wolves, the reintroduction of

972
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: wolves m mainly in Idaho, and I did um. And

973
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 1: I have a lot of friends who are cheap ranchers

974
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:08,920
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, so they hate these wolves and

975
01:08:08,920 --> 01:08:12,480
Speaker 1: they're they're furious about this. But what I say to

976
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: them shortly before they take away my drink and asked

977
01:08:16,080 --> 01:08:20,280
Speaker 1: me to leave, is you know they're supposed to be there.

978
01:08:21,640 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: You know, if you want to raise sheep in Idaho,

979
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:28,120
Speaker 1: you have to accept the fact that there is going

980
01:08:28,160 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 1: to be a certain amount of fredation. What happened in

981
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 1: this country, UM. You see it most in the West,

982
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:37,720
Speaker 1: but it was all over the country is that they

983
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,439
Speaker 1: just had this idea, let's identify the predators and kill

984
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 1: them and then we'll be fine. And they did this

985
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 1: at the request of the ranchers and the farmers, and

986
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 1: they killed everything that was a predator, and it completely

987
01:08:52,120 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 1: destroyed the balance of nature. Uh. And a lot of

988
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: cases in the West. Uh, the idea is, can't we

989
01:08:59,520 --> 01:09:02,519
Speaker 1: just be the predator, you know, so you know, you

990
01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 1: get rid of everything that prays on unlets and then

991
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:08,040
Speaker 1: you know, hunters can go out and they can shoot

992
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:12,720
Speaker 1: deer and elk for their hearts content. Um. But actually,

993
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:17,680
Speaker 1: you know, those herds are supposed to be controlled by

994
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: wolves and bears and mountain lions. It's the way the

995
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 1: thing is supposed to work. And you know, certain types

996
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:31,400
Speaker 1: of um, you know, like willows uh can't survive if

997
01:09:31,439 --> 01:09:33,680
Speaker 1: there's if there's too many alkin, then the birds that

998
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:36,200
Speaker 1: live in the willows can't survive. So, you know, nature

999
01:09:36,320 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: is a very complicated thing, and uh you have to

1000
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 1: do it very very carefully. I think that in some

1001
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 1: cases you can make arguments for some killing of marine mammals. Um,

1002
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,559
Speaker 1: these arguments have to be made pretty pretty carefully, though.

1003
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 1: I was surprised to see that you have. I haven't

1004
01:10:09,520 --> 01:10:13,280
Speaker 1: found where you you double down on this, but you

1005
01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:20,600
Speaker 1: suggest that saving salmon would involve stopping the killing of bears.

1006
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:24,960
Speaker 1: And I was curious, are in coastal areas that have

1007
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:30,400
Speaker 1: salmon runs, have you seen evidence of over harvest of

1008
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:37,720
Speaker 1: bears somehow impacting? No? I haven't even even in the

1009
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:40,960
Speaker 1: So that was just like an add on thought. Yeah,

1010
01:10:40,960 --> 01:10:47,280
Speaker 1: they come chodka. Um statistically has the the largest brown

1011
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:52,120
Speaker 1: bear population uh per square mile of any place in

1012
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 1: the world. I mean, it's just loaded with bears and

1013
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:58,439
Speaker 1: you were out fishing and there they all are. Uh. Aldo,

1014
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:00,680
Speaker 1: When I say over harvest you made shouldn't that we

1015
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:05,040
Speaker 1: need to stop killing bears in order to save sam

1016
01:11:05,080 --> 01:11:09,400
Speaker 1: over harvesting the bears like our humans over harvesting bears

1017
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:12,000
Speaker 1: to the detriment of salmon. Like, I don't understand that.

1018
01:11:12,080 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 1: I don't understand what what? What backs that up? Um?

1019
01:11:17,240 --> 01:11:22,480
Speaker 1: I say that, yeah, really, and the prologue and the prologue.

1020
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:25,640
Speaker 1: I was just curious what that what the what the

1021
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:30,479
Speaker 1: meant by that? Um? Well, I mean the the the

1022
01:11:30,680 --> 01:11:35,720
Speaker 1: the primary cause of the killing of bears is the

1023
01:11:35,800 --> 01:11:40,479
Speaker 1: destruction of their habitat. Um. Oh no, I got you.

1024
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:45,320
Speaker 1: I don't think the bear hunting. So killing bears through

1025
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,320
Speaker 1: habitat destruction, yea, eliminating them, because then that mean that

1026
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:53,840
Speaker 1: that trickles down. Obviously, the sentence was about stopping the

1027
01:11:53,960 --> 01:12:01,439
Speaker 1: killing of many animals, including beavers, wolves, bears. Yeah, well,

1028
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:08,479
Speaker 1: you know, um these are all different cases. Beavers would

1029
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:11,560
Speaker 1: be the most drastic. I mean, beavers were were slaughtered

1030
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,880
Speaker 1: for their pelts at one time. Yeah, we almost ran

1031
01:12:14,920 --> 01:12:18,280
Speaker 1: out of them, right right, which is not the case

1032
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:24,879
Speaker 1: with bears. But you, you, you have to be extremely careful.

1033
01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:30,160
Speaker 1: I mean, I have to admit that I don't understand

1034
01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:32,479
Speaker 1: bear hunting. I don't know why anybody wants to shoot

1035
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 1: a bear. I could explain it to you someday. You

1036
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:41,800
Speaker 1: I mean, do you do you eat it? Oh? Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1037
01:12:42,800 --> 01:12:45,080
Speaker 1: you like it? I do, well, I like it depends

1038
01:12:45,120 --> 01:12:48,080
Speaker 1: what they've been eating. I don't like them. You don't

1039
01:12:48,120 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 1: like the brown bears because they taste fishing because they've

1040
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:53,679
Speaker 1: been eating salmon. I've never eaten one. Yeah you're talking

1041
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 1: about black bears. Yeah, well they're they're they're better because

1042
01:12:56,960 --> 01:12:59,599
Speaker 1: they eat berries. The ones that are eating berries are

1043
01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:02,840
Speaker 1: quite good. The ones on the coastal areas where they've

1044
01:13:02,840 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: been feeding on some you know, dead sea lion they

1045
01:13:05,400 --> 01:13:08,680
Speaker 1: found for a month, are a little bit touchy. So

1046
01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:11,479
Speaker 1: I I much prefer to go find the ones up

1047
01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:15,040
Speaker 1: in the higher elevations. But we don't need to. I

1048
01:13:15,040 --> 01:13:16,640
Speaker 1: don't want to spend too much time on that. But

1049
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:20,479
Speaker 1: but this this whole thing about beavers and bears and wolves,

1050
01:13:21,000 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 1: um it was I was really talking about a historic thing. Uh.

1051
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:31,599
Speaker 1: None of those are are huge practices now, um ah,

1052
01:13:31,640 --> 01:13:35,360
Speaker 1: the wolves would be if you let them. Yeah, there's

1053
01:13:35,720 --> 01:13:38,240
Speaker 1: You have a chapter called the Problem with Solutions. I

1054
01:13:38,240 --> 01:13:41,880
Speaker 1: think I think that's right. The problem solutions tell me,

1055
01:13:42,160 --> 01:13:48,519
Speaker 1: Like I I could see someone saying, um, well, if

1056
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:50,720
Speaker 1: we can produce them at hatcheries, why don't we just

1057
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 1: make millions and millions of salmon and turn them loose?

1058
01:13:55,280 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 1: And who the hell cares? That's what was said originally?

1059
01:13:58,920 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: Where does that fall part? In France when they first

1060
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:06,000
Speaker 1: started doing hatcheries that's exactly what they did. They they

1061
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 1: petitioned the government. They said, look, we found this huge solution.

1062
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:12,559
Speaker 1: You know how the salmon are all dying because of

1063
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:15,479
Speaker 1: all these nets across the river and everything. Don't worry

1064
01:14:15,479 --> 01:14:19,360
Speaker 1: about it anymore. We can make more. Um, can you

1065
01:14:19,479 --> 01:14:22,200
Speaker 1: date that mark? Because that's what I like, really struck

1066
01:14:22,320 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 1: me is how long we've been at this hatchery thing.

1067
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:27,479
Speaker 1: Not off the top of my head it stated in

1068
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:34,200
Speaker 1: the book it's eighteenth century. They're trying they're early nineteenth century.

1069
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:39,920
Speaker 1: I think they're trying to propagate salmon in the early Yes, yeah,

1070
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 1: why does it not? Like why is it not? What's

1071
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:46,120
Speaker 1: wrong with that? There? Is it? Is it effective? Or

1072
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 1: is it not effective? And if it's not, why is

1073
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:55,400
Speaker 1: it not effective? Okay, complicated question? Um. I kind of

1074
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:58,559
Speaker 1: fought with my publisher, Patagony about this because they were

1075
01:14:58,640 --> 01:15:05,360
Speaker 1: much more anti hatchery than I am. Um. The the

1076
01:15:05,439 --> 01:15:08,680
Speaker 1: problem with hatcheries there there's several problems. I mean, the

1077
01:15:09,439 --> 01:15:13,479
Speaker 1: problem the original problem was that the fish don't live,

1078
01:15:14,240 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 1: and that was because the the eggs didn't come from

1079
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:19,519
Speaker 1: the river that the fish were being released it, so

1080
01:15:19,600 --> 01:15:24,160
Speaker 1: they weren't suited for that habitat but a bigger problem

1081
01:15:24,400 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 1: is that if you take a river like the Columbia

1082
01:15:27,800 --> 01:15:33,640
Speaker 1: or some of the polluted industrial rivers of England and Uh,

1083
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:36,479
Speaker 1: you make a bunch of hatchery fish and you release

1084
01:15:36,560 --> 01:15:41,600
Speaker 1: them in those rivers, you will get nothing because the

1085
01:15:41,840 --> 01:15:46,559
Speaker 1: same things that destroyed the wild fish will destroy the

1086
01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:49,360
Speaker 1: hatchery fish. So you have to fix the habitat before

1087
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:54,320
Speaker 1: you can before a hatchery can do any good. Another

1088
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:59,400
Speaker 1: problem is that hatchery fish seems to me, and there's

1089
01:15:59,479 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 1: summer for debate about this, but they seem to be

1090
01:16:02,120 --> 01:16:07,800
Speaker 1: somewhat inferior fish and less survival skills, so when they

1091
01:16:09,040 --> 01:16:13,040
Speaker 1: mix with wild fish, they're sort of dumming down the species.

1092
01:16:13,080 --> 01:16:20,799
Speaker 1: That's why having of the Japanese wildfish have some hatchery

1093
01:16:20,880 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 1: DNA and it is caused for concern. There's a lot

1094
01:16:24,920 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 1: of hatchery, you know. You'll often see these stories about

1095
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 1: somebody who went to some salmon, some fish store, a

1096
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 1: bunch of fish stores, took a bunch of fish that

1097
01:16:35,240 --> 01:16:39,439
Speaker 1: were being sold as wild wild salmon, tested their DNA

1098
01:16:39,560 --> 01:16:42,360
Speaker 1: and found out they weren't wild. And then everybody says, oh, well,

1099
01:16:42,360 --> 01:16:46,200
Speaker 1: these guys are a bunch of crooks. Not necessarily a

1100
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:49,400
Speaker 1: lot of fish that is a lot of salmon that

1101
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 1: is supposed to be wild has a lot of hatchery

1102
01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 1: DNA in it because it's crossed with it with with

1103
01:16:55,439 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 1: hatchery fish. Um. That's why they they invent to this

1104
01:17:00,439 --> 01:17:05,600
Speaker 1: new phrase, um, wild cot. They're not going out on

1105
01:17:05,640 --> 01:17:07,479
Speaker 1: a limb. They're saying it was caught in the wild

1106
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 1: like a wildfish. We don't know what its DNA is

1107
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:15,479
Speaker 1: because you know fish, commercial fisheries can't be testing the

1108
01:17:15,560 --> 01:17:20,759
Speaker 1: DNA of all the fish. You mentioned habitat and what's

1109
01:17:20,840 --> 01:17:23,480
Speaker 1: the like, what is it? Why is it the reluctance

1110
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:27,320
Speaker 1: of people to over these centuries now to to not

1111
01:17:27,439 --> 01:17:32,760
Speaker 1: accept the habitat. It's probably the main problem because it's

1112
01:17:32,800 --> 01:17:39,600
Speaker 1: costly to fix, and it sometimes means changing your economic activities.

1113
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:42,840
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're if the habitat is being destroyed

1114
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:46,280
Speaker 1: by a dam that's providing your electricity, or its being

1115
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:49,960
Speaker 1: destroyed by a factory that's uh, you know, creating wealth

1116
01:17:50,000 --> 01:17:56,000
Speaker 1: and jobs. Um, people aren't gonna want to mess with it. Um.

1117
01:17:56,080 --> 01:17:59,800
Speaker 1: That's getting back to my idea that you just have

1118
01:18:00,040 --> 01:18:04,160
Speaker 1: to change your whole concept of economic development. What was

1119
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:06,960
Speaker 1: the what was the heyday of damn building? Like what

1120
01:18:07,120 --> 01:18:12,559
Speaker 1: years the depression that the New Deal. You know, Rosell

1121
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:15,200
Speaker 1: put this out as a wonderful thing. And what he

1122
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:19,120
Speaker 1: got three sang a song to the you know, the

1123
01:18:19,200 --> 01:18:21,599
Speaker 1: damn building on the Columbia. I mean, would he got

1124
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 1: three the man of the people, Wasn't this great? They're

1125
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,040
Speaker 1: building damaged to block the Columbia. Man, it would have

1126
01:18:27,080 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 1: seemed that he would have been a pro samon guy.

1127
01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:34,200
Speaker 1: But so he probably would be today. Well, the reason

1128
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:36,000
Speaker 1: I'm asking that question is I thing I've always been

1129
01:18:36,000 --> 01:18:39,040
Speaker 1: curious about. Um, A lot of things that happened in

1130
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:45,439
Speaker 1: history we now like to sit and look and think about, Oh,

1131
01:18:45,520 --> 01:18:50,479
Speaker 1: they were so stupid, right, they were so rapacious and horrible, right,

1132
01:18:50,520 --> 01:18:52,400
Speaker 1: But it was the people that were doing these things

1133
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:56,200
Speaker 1: were it was us, right, it was awesome. It was

1134
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:59,000
Speaker 1: us in earlier form when they were getting there, when

1135
01:18:59,000 --> 01:19:02,160
Speaker 1: they were building those day ms. Do you know, was

1136
01:19:02,200 --> 01:19:06,679
Speaker 1: it well understood what this would do? What was someone saying,

1137
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 1: you know, um, I'm all for it. Let's let's generate

1138
01:19:13,000 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 1: tons of electricity, Let's become a dominant power, will come

1139
01:19:16,439 --> 01:19:19,880
Speaker 1: a dominant military power because we can smell aluminum and

1140
01:19:20,280 --> 01:19:24,080
Speaker 1: build an air force and on and on. But this

1141
01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:28,160
Speaker 1: means salmon or screwed. Did someone say that? Wasn't known?

1142
01:19:29,479 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 1: Someone said that, and those are the people that we

1143
01:19:32,520 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 1: call Indians. The native tribe said that a lot like

1144
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:40,160
Speaker 1: they looked and said, I just have a feeling that

1145
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:44,320
Speaker 1: when you block this river off, it will mean that

1146
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 1: these fish can't go up there anymore. This is this

1147
01:19:47,680 --> 01:19:50,680
Speaker 1: is not you know, high tech science to realize that

1148
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:53,000
Speaker 1: if you have a fish that has to run the

1149
01:19:53,120 --> 01:19:55,679
Speaker 1: river and you block the river, you're going to destroy

1150
01:19:55,720 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: the fish. Right, Yeah, but what was the conversation, Well,

1151
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 1: you know it, it's going back to what I was

1152
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:05,360
Speaker 1: saying before that. The conversation was, we're developing the economy.

1153
01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:08,439
Speaker 1: It's the depression and we're creating jobs, you know, and

1154
01:20:08,760 --> 01:20:11,880
Speaker 1: like tough ship. It was like tough shot to the right.

1155
01:20:11,920 --> 01:20:16,000
Speaker 1: We're making we're we're making New England a prosperous place,

1156
01:20:16,240 --> 01:20:19,800
Speaker 1: you know, where we're Britain is going to dominate the

1157
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:24,840
Speaker 1: industrial revolution. But it was but you feel I mean,

1158
01:20:24,960 --> 01:20:27,760
Speaker 1: came like saying the same thing. But you feel that

1159
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:31,080
Speaker 1: someone that it was in the it was it was

1160
01:20:31,160 --> 01:20:36,559
Speaker 1: part of the calculus. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's

1161
01:20:36,720 --> 01:20:40,200
Speaker 1: uh like when someone starts smoking, right, I don't. I

1162
01:20:40,200 --> 01:20:42,760
Speaker 1: don't think they say like I'm gonna start. I don't

1163
01:20:42,800 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 1: think they really conceptualize that. They're not like I'm gonna

1164
01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 1: take up smoking. I do realize that this will mean

1165
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:50,240
Speaker 1: i will die younger of lung cancer, but I'm committed.

1166
01:20:51,439 --> 01:20:53,439
Speaker 1: Do you think they're not doing it that way? But

1167
01:20:53,720 --> 01:20:55,439
Speaker 1: how could people have not have done it that way

1168
01:20:55,439 --> 01:20:58,240
Speaker 1: with salmon? Do you know there's a Republican congressman in

1169
01:20:58,240 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 1: Indiana I can't think of his name who said that,

1170
01:21:01,160 --> 01:21:05,000
Speaker 1: you know, people are going to have to um uh

1171
01:21:05,920 --> 01:21:09,360
Speaker 1: die from the Corona virus and that's just you know,

1172
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: that's just what we have to do to get the

1173
01:21:11,040 --> 01:21:15,200
Speaker 1: economy moving. It doesn't surprise me that someone would say that,

1174
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:18,600
Speaker 1: because I think people have similar conversations about you know,

1175
01:21:18,720 --> 01:21:20,559
Speaker 1: I think you could say the same thing, like people

1176
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:24,720
Speaker 1: have an appetite for alcohol, um and people want to

1177
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:29,240
Speaker 1: be able to drink alcohol, but we lose I don't

1178
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:34,439
Speaker 1: know what it is fifty people to alcohol related deaths

1179
01:21:34,479 --> 01:21:37,519
Speaker 1: every year, and we accept that because some of us

1180
01:21:37,840 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 1: it's really important for us to have a beer at night,

1181
01:21:41,120 --> 01:21:43,120
Speaker 1: or it's really important for us to go out and

1182
01:21:43,120 --> 01:21:45,920
Speaker 1: have a glass of wine. So we will take the

1183
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 1: fact that we will have massive amounts of highway fatalities

1184
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:53,639
Speaker 1: from alcohol, we will have massive amounts of domestic violence

1185
01:21:53,640 --> 01:21:57,519
Speaker 1: from alcohol. Uh, and we will have child neglect because

1186
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:01,680
Speaker 1: of alcohol and financial destitute for people because of alcohol.

1187
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:03,920
Speaker 1: Because when I go home at night, I like to

1188
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:08,320
Speaker 1: have a cold beer. So sure we do that all

1189
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:14,080
Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, it's no different. Well, it is kind

1190
01:22:14,080 --> 01:22:16,360
Speaker 1: of explain how it's explain to me how it's different

1191
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:18,760
Speaker 1: when you go home and have your beer. That's really

1192
01:22:18,800 --> 01:22:23,960
Speaker 1: not causing somebody to beat the wife. No, but we're

1193
01:22:24,000 --> 01:22:27,120
Speaker 1: taking a thing that we know, like I have alcohol,

1194
01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:29,320
Speaker 1: and you have to deal with you have to deal

1195
01:22:29,360 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 1: with you have to deal with alcohol and people's ability

1196
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:36,240
Speaker 1: to use it in a better way. Yeah. I think

1197
01:22:36,280 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 1: we've pretty successfully proven that banning alcohol doesn't work. Uh,

1198
01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:44,920
Speaker 1: you know, and I don't know that banning travel works. Um,

1199
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:49,200
Speaker 1: it works, but I think that banning cards. Think how

1200
01:22:49,280 --> 01:22:53,080
Speaker 1: many lives who would say exactly exactly, But I can't

1201
01:22:53,080 --> 01:22:55,200
Speaker 1: get behind it. Let's go, let's get back to salmon.

1202
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:58,280
Speaker 1: At the at the end of your book, this is

1203
01:22:58,439 --> 01:23:01,280
Speaker 1: a buddy mine who he guy work with, Sam Longren.

1204
01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:05,080
Speaker 1: He knew we're gonna be talking and and he had

1205
01:23:06,000 --> 01:23:08,479
Speaker 1: there's a sentence you talked, you used in your book

1206
01:23:08,560 --> 01:23:10,720
Speaker 1: cod that he wanted me to ask you about where

1207
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:16,280
Speaker 1: he says that you wrote about how most fishermen cannot

1208
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:22,000
Speaker 1: stop fishing, like acknowledging that it's like this, it's a compulsion.

1209
01:23:22,360 --> 01:23:28,080
Speaker 1: It's like a compulsive behavior. Yeah, it's because if you

1210
01:23:28,160 --> 01:23:32,800
Speaker 1: are a commercial fisherman, um, that is a life that

1211
01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:35,639
Speaker 1: you love and there's no substitute for it. There's nothing

1212
01:23:35,680 --> 01:23:38,559
Speaker 1: else you can do. What does a commercial fisherman do

1213
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:43,840
Speaker 1: instead of fishing? There's there's there's there's nothing else like it,

1214
01:23:45,320 --> 01:23:50,120
Speaker 1: um and and and it's a it's a fisherman's entire identity.

1215
01:23:51,360 --> 01:23:54,040
Speaker 1: Do you think that that identity? I mean so much so,

1216
01:23:54,439 --> 01:23:56,600
Speaker 1: so much so. The fisherman you know, had they have

1217
01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:59,600
Speaker 1: trouble relating to people who who who don't fish. I

1218
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:03,200
Speaker 1: mean that I tell you you know how it has

1219
01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:06,519
Speaker 1: changed my whole relationship as a journalist with fisheries. The

1220
01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:09,960
Speaker 1: fact that they know that I've actually worked on commercial boats,

1221
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:12,640
Speaker 1: they accepted they'll be more likely to talk to you.

1222
01:24:14,520 --> 01:24:19,280
Speaker 1: Right when my Cord book came out, it came out

1223
01:24:19,439 --> 01:24:25,679
Speaker 1: at the same time as Sebastian Younger is a perfect storm.

1224
01:24:25,800 --> 01:24:28,599
Speaker 1: And we did a TV show together in Rhode Island,

1225
01:24:28,680 --> 01:24:30,160
Speaker 1: and then we were kind of walking out to the

1226
01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:34,000
Speaker 1: parking lot and and he was saying to me, you know,

1227
01:24:34,080 --> 01:24:35,719
Speaker 1: when I saw her in the book, I just couldn't

1228
01:24:35,760 --> 01:24:39,240
Speaker 1: get anybody to take me on their boats. Well, how

1229
01:24:39,240 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 1: did you get people to take him on their boats?

1230
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:45,519
Speaker 1: And um, you know, he just he's a nice guy.

1231
01:24:45,600 --> 01:24:47,960
Speaker 1: You know, he looked like a rich guy in this

1232
01:24:48,160 --> 01:24:53,920
Speaker 1: very fancy car. What could I say to him? Yeah,

1233
01:24:56,040 --> 01:25:00,600
Speaker 1: I guess yeah, that's true, man, um a way that

1234
01:25:00,920 --> 01:25:04,679
Speaker 1: and I think we all do it where like even

1235
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:07,240
Speaker 1: if you imagine as a writer, when you're talking to

1236
01:25:07,360 --> 01:25:11,000
Speaker 1: someone who might get your antenna might be up. You know,

1237
01:25:12,240 --> 01:25:15,360
Speaker 1: you're not sure about them, what their motivations are. But

1238
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:20,040
Speaker 1: then they say some little thing that reveals some intimacy

1239
01:25:20,160 --> 01:25:25,880
Speaker 1: with your industry, some intimacy with your craft, right, you do,

1240
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:32,880
Speaker 1: your guard goes down, right, But it's it's also I mean,

1241
01:25:32,920 --> 01:25:36,080
Speaker 1: I I think it's true that I do have an

1242
01:25:36,160 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: understanding and an empathy for commercial fishermen that a lot

1243
01:25:39,200 --> 01:25:41,920
Speaker 1: of writers don't have. I mean, I think that this,

1244
01:25:42,439 --> 01:25:45,400
Speaker 1: I think that over fishing is sometimes a problem, but

1245
01:25:46,720 --> 01:25:49,280
Speaker 1: it is it is pounced on much more than it

1246
01:25:49,320 --> 01:25:55,439
Speaker 1: should be because these are marginalized blue collar workers. Uh,

1247
01:25:55,960 --> 01:25:58,800
Speaker 1: and people don't really understand them or what they're doing.

1248
01:25:59,120 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 1: And it's so easy to say, oh, you know, here's

1249
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:04,960
Speaker 1: the problem these guys, and and you know, to call

1250
01:26:05,040 --> 01:26:08,559
Speaker 1: a fisherman greedy is so absurd. I mean, take a

1251
01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:13,520
Speaker 1: look at what they have. How greedy could they be? Yeah,

1252
01:26:13,960 --> 01:26:16,880
Speaker 1: you're so greedy? You want to just work your ass

1253
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:20,320
Speaker 1: off all the time to every year, worry about whether

1254
01:26:20,400 --> 01:26:22,400
Speaker 1: or not you're gonna make a living, right, and the

1255
01:26:22,520 --> 01:26:24,160
Speaker 1: next thing you know, you're gonna want to have a

1256
01:26:24,200 --> 01:26:29,000
Speaker 1: house to live in, you know, all while you're covered

1257
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:32,720
Speaker 1: in fish line, right. I think that people think of

1258
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:36,679
Speaker 1: like hatcheries and fish farming often in the same sentence.

1259
01:26:36,960 --> 01:26:38,519
Speaker 1: You know, I imagine a lot of people don't even

1260
01:26:38,520 --> 01:26:44,479
Speaker 1: really understand what the difference is. But explain for people

1261
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:48,960
Speaker 1: like what fish farming is and the term that people

1262
01:26:49,040 --> 01:26:54,120
Speaker 1: use like sea cattle or sea grazing. I can't remember

1263
01:26:54,120 --> 01:26:58,160
Speaker 1: what would expression and and and how fish farming impacts salmon.

1264
01:26:58,720 --> 01:27:05,639
Speaker 1: I said sea cattle, but I'm they have made that up. Okay, Um, yeah,

1265
01:27:05,680 --> 01:27:09,120
Speaker 1: I mean the difference between farming and and hatcheries that

1266
01:27:09,160 --> 01:27:14,679
Speaker 1: hatcheries are trying to work with the wild stocks. Farming

1267
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 1: is something completely separate. Farming is a way of producing

1268
01:27:18,360 --> 01:27:24,200
Speaker 1: an alternative UH product. That's I mean the the It

1269
01:27:24,280 --> 01:27:27,000
Speaker 1: was started in the nineties seventies in Norway by guys

1270
01:27:27,040 --> 01:27:30,160
Speaker 1: who thought they were coming up with a UM low

1271
01:27:30,240 --> 01:27:37,480
Speaker 1: cost sustainable product UM. And the first problem with it

1272
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:41,759
Speaker 1: is that it's not so sustainable if you're feeding them wildfish.

1273
01:27:41,920 --> 01:27:45,519
Speaker 1: So you know, they take factory trawlers worse kind of fishing.

1274
01:27:45,560 --> 01:27:47,880
Speaker 1: They scoop up all the stuff grinded up into meal

1275
01:27:47,960 --> 01:27:51,400
Speaker 1: to feed the salmon and the farm. Then when you

1276
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:54,000
Speaker 1: eat a farm salmon, you're killing more wildfish than if

1277
01:27:54,000 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 1: you just stayed a wildfish. UM. Fish farmers have have

1278
01:27:58,880 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 1: been trying to deal with They they they they've lowered

1279
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:05,200
Speaker 1: the percentage of fish in the food. It's down to

1280
01:28:05,240 --> 01:28:09,719
Speaker 1: about and there's all kinds of really kind of high

1281
01:28:09,720 --> 01:28:13,760
Speaker 1: tech experiments soldier fly and all sorts of ways of

1282
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:17,519
Speaker 1: trying to get other protein to do this differently. UM.

1283
01:28:18,400 --> 01:28:22,000
Speaker 1: The problem is that the consumer UH tends to find

1284
01:28:22,040 --> 01:28:25,080
Speaker 1: that the more actual fishes in the feed, the better

1285
01:28:25,160 --> 01:28:28,360
Speaker 1: they like. To fish. Uh. So this is something they're

1286
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:31,080
Speaker 1: working on that that they've improved, but they've got a

1287
01:28:31,120 --> 01:28:34,519
Speaker 1: ways to go. That's an interesting thing about fish farming.

1288
01:28:34,640 --> 01:28:37,000
Speaker 1: I don't know that I haven't given a lot of

1289
01:28:37,040 --> 01:28:40,600
Speaker 1: thought to it until recently around an issue around Manhattan.

1290
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:44,880
Speaker 1: Um like just like bait, like fishing bait and fish

1291
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:47,680
Speaker 1: feed that you think, if it's farmed, it must not

1292
01:28:47,760 --> 01:28:51,520
Speaker 1: be killing fish, right, But to hear about the quantities

1293
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:54,760
Speaker 1: of fish it takes to feed the fish, that's right. Uh,

1294
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:59,040
Speaker 1: that's right. So they're they're trying to lower that. And

1295
01:28:59,080 --> 01:29:06,840
Speaker 1: then they have the problem of escapes. Um. And you

1296
01:29:06,880 --> 01:29:10,320
Speaker 1: know that's just the problem that uh, some of the

1297
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:13,080
Speaker 1: farm salmon get out of the nets, either by accident

1298
01:29:13,160 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 1: or sometimes they'll just hop out. I've been a fish farms.

1299
01:29:16,520 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 1: A salmon just leaps out and somebody says, oh, grabs

1300
01:29:19,280 --> 01:29:24,320
Speaker 1: the net and throws him back in. But um, almost

1301
01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:29,519
Speaker 1: all farm fishes atlantic salmon. So if if atlantic salmon

1302
01:29:29,720 --> 01:29:33,679
Speaker 1: escape in the Atlantic, they will cross breed with wild

1303
01:29:33,720 --> 01:29:37,879
Speaker 1: Atlantic salmon. This is very bad because you know, in farming,

1304
01:29:38,560 --> 01:29:44,439
Speaker 1: you eliminate, um, a natural selection, you replace it with

1305
01:29:44,560 --> 01:29:47,920
Speaker 1: a human selection. It's like cows. You know, cows don't

1306
01:29:47,920 --> 01:29:52,200
Speaker 1: have anything natural about them. Everything's been chosen by by

1307
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:56,320
Speaker 1: by farmers and biologists. You know, they're talking about don't

1308
01:29:56,360 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 1: feed the cow GMO food the cows gmo menetically modified

1309
01:30:01,080 --> 01:30:05,400
Speaker 1: cow um. And same thing with salmon. So you know,

1310
01:30:05,640 --> 01:30:08,880
Speaker 1: they have chosen their genes that they have bread these

1311
01:30:08,920 --> 01:30:13,200
Speaker 1: salmon um for one thing, one thing, only to to

1312
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:17,559
Speaker 1: grow very quickly so that it just you know, less

1313
01:30:17,600 --> 01:30:22,120
Speaker 1: expense raising them to market size. They have no skills,

1314
01:30:22,200 --> 01:30:25,639
Speaker 1: they have no you know, they can't find the river

1315
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:28,240
Speaker 1: the earth. They have no river their birth, but couldn't

1316
01:30:28,720 --> 01:30:33,960
Speaker 1: if they did. They have you know, no, none of

1317
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:37,040
Speaker 1: all these extraordinary abilities of wild salmon has They are

1318
01:30:37,160 --> 01:30:40,960
Speaker 1: They are are just a fast growing moron. You know.

1319
01:30:41,360 --> 01:30:44,160
Speaker 1: So now they're getting out and they're breeding. How do

1320
01:30:44,600 --> 01:30:53,759
Speaker 1: how does the breeding happen if they can't find the river? Uh, well,

1321
01:30:54,360 --> 01:30:56,120
Speaker 1: they can find a river, it's just not the river

1322
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:59,000
Speaker 1: of their birth. They'll just go up a river and

1323
01:30:59,040 --> 01:31:01,360
Speaker 1: if there's a female there, you know, if there's a

1324
01:31:01,360 --> 01:31:04,800
Speaker 1: male and there's a female they're digging a red, they'll

1325
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:09,960
Speaker 1: deposit their milt on it, or if it's a female

1326
01:31:09,960 --> 01:31:13,439
Speaker 1: will dig a red and a wild male will you know,

1327
01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:16,200
Speaker 1: they salmon. If they see a nest, they go for it.

1328
01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:19,120
Speaker 1: So they still do have the urge to run up

1329
01:31:19,120 --> 01:31:23,280
Speaker 1: a river at some point. Yeah, but it's just any river.

1330
01:31:24,320 --> 01:31:30,879
Speaker 1: And uh so this is going to dumb down wild

1331
01:31:31,080 --> 01:31:34,280
Speaker 1: Atlantic salmon. Now in the Pacific, most of the farm

1332
01:31:34,320 --> 01:31:37,200
Speaker 1: salmon are also Atlantic and it's a hard rule of

1333
01:31:37,240 --> 01:31:42,959
Speaker 1: biology that different genera don't cross breed. So an Atlantic

1334
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:47,800
Speaker 1: salmon and a Pacific salmon are two separate genera, so

1335
01:31:47,840 --> 01:31:51,120
Speaker 1: they won't breed. So it's not really as big a

1336
01:31:51,200 --> 01:31:54,040
Speaker 1: risk as people get very excited when there's escapes of

1337
01:31:54,120 --> 01:31:57,479
Speaker 1: farm salmon in the Pacific, but um, most of the

1338
01:31:57,560 --> 01:32:01,480
Speaker 1: time they just disappear because it's gonna happen there. They're

1339
01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:04,200
Speaker 1: not going to cross breed with the wild. All they

1340
01:32:04,240 --> 01:32:07,840
Speaker 1: can do is set up their own Atlantic salmon. But

1341
01:32:07,920 --> 01:32:10,640
Speaker 1: since they're all dumb fish, uh, they're not going to

1342
01:32:10,760 --> 01:32:15,519
Speaker 1: compete with the wild populations and and they'll probably die out.

1343
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:19,680
Speaker 1: But it's a huge problem in the Atlantic. Um. And

1344
01:32:19,720 --> 01:32:23,920
Speaker 1: then there's the problem of sea lice. Um. Sea lice

1345
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:30,680
Speaker 1: is a crustacean that attacks salmon, and um, you know,

1346
01:32:31,080 --> 01:32:33,519
Speaker 1: these lights are traveling all over the ocean, they'll find

1347
01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:35,600
Speaker 1: a salmon or two. But then when you have this

1348
01:32:35,680 --> 01:32:40,519
Speaker 1: fish farm with a million salmon in one cage, you know,

1349
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:44,479
Speaker 1: it's it's like leaving honey out for the bears, you know,

1350
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:48,800
Speaker 1: just all the lights will just gravitate to the farm

1351
01:32:49,000 --> 01:32:51,719
Speaker 1: and they won't limit themselves to the farm of Carson.

1352
01:32:51,840 --> 01:32:55,360
Speaker 1: There's any wild salmon there, they'll attack them also, so

1353
01:32:55,400 --> 01:33:02,519
Speaker 1: that there's a huge sea lice problem. Um, and you know,

1354
01:33:02,600 --> 01:33:06,000
Speaker 1: fish farmers are trying to deal with this. They found

1355
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:10,000
Speaker 1: certain species of fish that eat sea lice and they've

1356
01:33:10,080 --> 01:33:14,320
Speaker 1: used them, but you know, they they used so many

1357
01:33:14,360 --> 01:33:16,519
Speaker 1: of them that they started over fishing them. They started

1358
01:33:16,560 --> 01:33:19,799
Speaker 1: to disappear. So what do they do, their fish farmers,

1359
01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:25,720
Speaker 1: They started farming these other species to eat. Really, yeah,

1360
01:33:26,160 --> 01:33:30,120
Speaker 1: the fish they're using to eat lice off salmon are

1361
01:33:30,240 --> 01:33:32,800
Speaker 1: a fish that they were going out and catching. They

1362
01:33:32,840 --> 01:33:36,160
Speaker 1: were depleted the resource. They depleted it, and then they

1363
01:33:36,160 --> 01:33:40,360
Speaker 1: started farming him. But they don't see if we'll be

1364
01:33:40,360 --> 01:33:42,080
Speaker 1: able to come up with enough of them. They handle

1365
01:33:42,160 --> 01:33:46,559
Speaker 1: the lights just like some never end to it, man, right,

1366
01:33:46,640 --> 01:33:49,200
Speaker 1: So there's a lot of problems and and you know

1367
01:33:49,479 --> 01:33:53,920
Speaker 1: a lot of people like this idea of moving the

1368
01:33:53,920 --> 01:34:00,080
Speaker 1: fish farms inland, in in enclosed UH spaces so that

1369
01:34:00,200 --> 01:34:03,040
Speaker 1: there's no escaping and no sea lice can get into them,

1370
01:34:03,560 --> 01:34:09,160
Speaker 1: basically making a hatchery for well, it's more it's more

1371
01:34:09,160 --> 01:34:11,960
Speaker 1: confined than a hatchery in there there, you know, when

1372
01:34:11,960 --> 01:34:15,439
Speaker 1: they're raising them to full size. So what this means

1373
01:34:15,640 --> 01:34:20,000
Speaker 1: is it means tremendously increasing their carbon footprint because the

1374
01:34:20,000 --> 01:34:23,439
Speaker 1: original idea of farm salmon was that they used the

1375
01:34:23,600 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 1: energy of the current in the ocean. They didn't use

1376
01:34:26,360 --> 01:34:31,160
Speaker 1: any energy. Um. Now they're getting into all of the

1377
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:37,280
Speaker 1: problems that environmentalists oppose in UH cattle farming, you know,

1378
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:42,120
Speaker 1: the nutrient and yeah, oh that I found it funny

1379
01:34:42,160 --> 01:34:45,800
Speaker 1: that there's environmentalists who opposed cattle farming but want to

1380
01:34:45,840 --> 01:34:51,120
Speaker 1: bring UH salmon farming on land. UM. So I don't

1381
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:54,639
Speaker 1: think that that's the solution. UM. Most fish farmers don't

1382
01:34:54,680 --> 01:34:57,360
Speaker 1: think that's the solution either, But you know, maybe there's

1383
01:34:57,360 --> 01:35:01,120
Speaker 1: some ideas in there that that work. I don't understand

1384
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:04,479
Speaker 1: why they can't stop escapes. I mean just I don't know,

1385
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:08,160
Speaker 1: make it higher walls on the on the pens or something.

1386
01:35:08,200 --> 01:35:10,240
Speaker 1: You know, there was a big there was a big escapement.

1387
01:35:10,400 --> 01:35:14,240
Speaker 1: And remember in Puget Sound when I was living there

1388
01:35:14,320 --> 01:35:17,120
Speaker 1: and it was it was I think it was storm related, yes,

1389
01:35:18,240 --> 01:35:22,200
Speaker 1: and they tried to get all the fishermen fired up

1390
01:35:22,240 --> 01:35:25,679
Speaker 1: to go catch them, and people were catching them like crazy. Yeah.

1391
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:28,559
Speaker 1: But you know when people got very excited, I heard

1392
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:31,960
Speaker 1: people comparing it to the Exxon, Valdi's oil spell and

1393
01:35:32,160 --> 01:35:35,679
Speaker 1: all these things. But um, what happened to those fish?

1394
01:35:36,000 --> 01:35:38,320
Speaker 1: I mean the ones they didn't catch, they're gone. Nobody

1395
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:43,639
Speaker 1: knows they died off. They just they can't farm salmon,

1396
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:47,120
Speaker 1: can't make it. The only way they can make it

1397
01:35:47,200 --> 01:35:49,599
Speaker 1: is to reproduce with wild salmon, which they can't do

1398
01:35:49,640 --> 01:35:55,240
Speaker 1: in the Pacific. When when you were finishing your book?

1399
01:35:55,840 --> 01:35:57,920
Speaker 1: When when what was the pup date? What's the pup

1400
01:35:58,000 --> 01:36:01,120
Speaker 1: date of your book? It was Archer this year, so

1401
01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:03,560
Speaker 1: I just came out. So you finished it probably a

1402
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:10,000
Speaker 1: year ago, maybe maybe more. Yeah, I don't remember when,

1403
01:36:10,120 --> 01:36:13,200
Speaker 1: uh when you got it done, did you? I'm sure

1404
01:36:13,240 --> 01:36:17,160
Speaker 1: you were happy to have finished a book, just because

1405
01:36:17,160 --> 01:36:19,760
Speaker 1: it's like as a writer and making a book, regardless

1406
01:36:19,760 --> 01:36:24,519
Speaker 1: of the subject and how you might impact that subject. Um,

1407
01:36:24,600 --> 01:36:26,640
Speaker 1: it just feels good to finish them, right, to get

1408
01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:30,000
Speaker 1: them out, But did you Actually it's actually my thirty

1409
01:36:30,040 --> 01:36:36,360
Speaker 1: third book. Um, and you know, my my response to

1410
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:39,000
Speaker 1: finishing it was to start working on my thirty fourth board.

1411
01:36:40,040 --> 01:36:44,879
Speaker 1: But it when you finished it, were you just, um,

1412
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:48,519
Speaker 1: knowing the enormity of the problem. You know, if you

1413
01:36:48,560 --> 01:36:52,920
Speaker 1: imagine ahead a hundred years, it just looks really bad

1414
01:36:53,400 --> 01:36:56,559
Speaker 1: for salmon, especially as you lay it out. When you

1415
01:36:56,640 --> 01:37:00,640
Speaker 1: finished it, did did you were you you know, like

1416
01:37:01,160 --> 01:37:06,880
Speaker 1: catatonic from the depression of it all or where you know,

1417
01:37:07,000 --> 01:37:12,440
Speaker 1: because I'm just not I'm not like that. I just, um,

1418
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,960
Speaker 1: I I can't believe that we're just going to sit

1419
01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:21,760
Speaker 1: around and let the earth parish. I think that, um,

1420
01:37:21,880 --> 01:37:25,639
Speaker 1: we will get together and do things to fix these things.

1421
01:37:25,680 --> 01:37:27,639
Speaker 1: And that's why I write a book like this too,

1422
01:37:28,360 --> 01:37:31,200
Speaker 1: you know, promote this happening. And I think it can happen.

1423
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:33,720
Speaker 1: And I you know, I have a daughter who's nineteen

1424
01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:39,320
Speaker 1: in college, and those kids are fantastic. Uh, they're so

1425
01:37:39,439 --> 01:37:44,400
Speaker 1: aware of environmental problems and and so so piste off.

1426
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:48,800
Speaker 1: We've handled things and determined to do it better. And um,

1427
01:37:48,840 --> 01:37:50,760
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's hope for the world, and there

1428
01:37:50,760 --> 01:37:54,120
Speaker 1: are you know, programs that are taking down damns, and

1429
01:37:54,160 --> 01:37:57,200
Speaker 1: there's a tremendous number of rivers whose pollution has been

1430
01:37:57,240 --> 01:38:03,240
Speaker 1: cleaned up, and um now there is. We aren't without hope,

1431
01:38:04,040 --> 01:38:09,040
Speaker 1: you know. We just can't sit around and say, oh,

1432
01:38:09,120 --> 01:38:12,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure it'll be fine, you know, we have to

1433
01:38:12,040 --> 01:38:17,280
Speaker 1: make it happen. Yeah, the things that we've restored we

1434
01:38:17,400 --> 01:38:20,799
Speaker 1: restored at great cost. Well, that's one of the problems

1435
01:38:20,840 --> 01:38:24,640
Speaker 1: is that tearing down damns, it turns out, is incredibly

1436
01:38:24,720 --> 01:38:28,960
Speaker 1: expensive and it comes with its own risks. Yes, and

1437
01:38:29,040 --> 01:38:32,920
Speaker 1: you really have to kind of rebuild the river after

1438
01:38:33,400 --> 01:38:36,800
Speaker 1: the dam comes down. It's not like, you know, you're

1439
01:38:36,840 --> 01:38:38,640
Speaker 1: kind of think in your mind. You take down the

1440
01:38:38,720 --> 01:38:40,840
Speaker 1: dam and then the water rushes out and you're back

1441
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:44,040
Speaker 1: to what you had before, but so much changed because

1442
01:38:44,080 --> 01:38:46,720
Speaker 1: of the dam that you know you have to you

1443
01:38:46,760 --> 01:38:49,759
Speaker 1: have to get a gravel bottom on the river again,

1444
01:38:49,800 --> 01:38:52,760
Speaker 1: because salmona won't live on a river that doesn't have

1445
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:56,360
Speaker 1: a gravel bottom if it all gets silted over because

1446
01:38:56,400 --> 01:38:59,439
Speaker 1: of this release from tearing down the dam, you have

1447
01:38:59,600 --> 01:39:04,960
Speaker 1: to do so think to fix the bottom. Ice live

1448
01:39:05,000 --> 01:39:07,400
Speaker 1: in a community, and I'd lived there for quite a

1449
01:39:07,439 --> 01:39:10,800
Speaker 1: while while there was a long a statewide and also

1450
01:39:10,960 --> 01:39:15,000
Speaker 1: very local you know, dialogue around removing a dam in

1451
01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:21,640
Speaker 1: town and um some of the people most adamantly opposed

1452
01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:27,840
Speaker 1: to removing the dam were the fisherman because there had

1453
01:39:27,880 --> 01:39:32,519
Speaker 1: been a lot of um mining upstream on this river

1454
01:39:33,360 --> 01:39:36,280
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of heavy metal and toxic

1455
01:39:36,360 --> 01:39:39,200
Speaker 1: sediment they had built up behind that damn where the

1456
01:39:39,280 --> 01:39:41,240
Speaker 1: dam was kind of an extinct damn. It was just

1457
01:39:41,360 --> 01:39:45,200
Speaker 1: the whole reservoir had filled in with toxic sediment and

1458
01:39:45,320 --> 01:39:49,840
Speaker 1: there was a bitter pill of the dam should come down,

1459
01:39:50,479 --> 01:39:53,639
Speaker 1: but we need to know that you're gonna stir this

1460
01:39:53,720 --> 01:39:56,200
Speaker 1: stuff up and a lot of this ship is gonna

1461
01:39:56,200 --> 01:39:58,960
Speaker 1: get sent down river. Well that's going back to what

1462
01:39:59,000 --> 01:40:00,840
Speaker 1: I was saying about Hatch. He's the first thing you

1463
01:40:00,880 --> 01:40:03,080
Speaker 1: have to do is restore the habitat of the river

1464
01:40:03,760 --> 01:40:06,120
Speaker 1: or all of us No good. I mean, you know,

1465
01:40:06,280 --> 01:40:09,320
Speaker 1: you take down the dam and then the the the

1466
01:40:09,360 --> 01:40:11,880
Speaker 1: salmon are going to swim up stream and spawn in

1467
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:16,040
Speaker 1: the toxic area. No, that's not going to happen either. Uh.

1468
01:40:17,880 --> 01:40:24,559
Speaker 1: Every decision, every decision has a painful part to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Mark,

1469
01:40:24,640 --> 01:40:27,920
Speaker 1: what's your like favorite bright spot that gives you hope

1470
01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:31,439
Speaker 1: after working on this project and knowing all so much

1471
01:40:31,479 --> 01:40:34,240
Speaker 1: about it, Like what what stands out as a success

1472
01:40:34,360 --> 01:40:38,840
Speaker 1: or a win right now? That give you a little hope? Well,

1473
01:40:38,920 --> 01:40:41,800
Speaker 1: and a number of things. I mean, these these projects

1474
01:40:41,880 --> 01:40:45,559
Speaker 1: taking down dams. There's a big one in California. There

1475
01:40:45,760 --> 01:40:49,120
Speaker 1: was the l Y in Washington, the penam Scott in Maine.

1476
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:53,360
Speaker 1: These are huge things that are being done um and

1477
01:40:54,240 --> 01:40:56,240
Speaker 1: you know, the way in which they were done is

1478
01:40:56,320 --> 01:40:59,320
Speaker 1: very impressive. I mean, the Panamscott happened because a whole

1479
01:41:00,080 --> 01:41:07,280
Speaker 1: coalition of environmentalists and fishing people and state government and

1480
01:41:07,400 --> 01:41:12,559
Speaker 1: federal government and Native Americans and all these different groups

1481
01:41:12,560 --> 01:41:14,639
Speaker 1: got together to make this happen. And when I see

1482
01:41:14,680 --> 01:41:17,640
Speaker 1: something like that happened, I think, wow, you know we

1483
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:22,080
Speaker 1: can do it. You know. Also there, you know, there

1484
01:41:22,120 --> 01:41:24,320
Speaker 1: was a pole. I love this. There was a poland

1485
01:41:24,520 --> 01:41:27,800
Speaker 1: you know, the Oregonian, the newspaper in Portland. So the

1486
01:41:27,840 --> 01:41:31,839
Speaker 1: Oregonian did this pole in which an overwhelming majority of

1487
01:41:32,400 --> 01:41:38,479
Speaker 1: people that they asked in Oregon said that they considered, um,

1488
01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:42,559
Speaker 1: saving salmon in the Columbia River more important than any

1489
01:41:42,600 --> 01:41:50,080
Speaker 1: economic activity for the river. That's interesting. I wonder if

1490
01:41:50,120 --> 01:41:52,439
Speaker 1: you had run that pole in other parts of that state.

1491
01:41:52,479 --> 01:41:57,200
Speaker 1: I think you'd have seen dramatically different results. Perhaps well yeah, yeah, yeah,

1492
01:41:57,240 --> 01:42:00,640
Speaker 1: you know you like you getting nowhere. Get nowhere in

1493
01:42:00,840 --> 01:42:05,040
Speaker 1: in Idaho because they've built their whole economy on being

1494
01:42:05,040 --> 01:42:09,080
Speaker 1: a seaport for grain um, which was made possible by

1495
01:42:09,160 --> 01:42:14,439
Speaker 1: damns Um, and so many people are economically hitched to

1496
01:42:14,520 --> 01:42:18,519
Speaker 1: that system that you know, it's basically when it comes

1497
01:42:18,560 --> 01:42:20,840
Speaker 1: down to, is them and some fly fishermen. You know,

1498
01:42:22,600 --> 01:42:24,160
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want people to think they can

1499
01:42:24,200 --> 01:42:27,920
Speaker 1: skip reading the book because of this conversation. So I

1500
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:29,920
Speaker 1: need to point out to people that we have not

1501
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:37,519
Speaker 1: covered the saber tooth salmon. Yes, but don't don't cover

1502
01:42:37,560 --> 01:42:42,680
Speaker 1: it an extinct bygone fish called the sabertooth salmon, And

1503
01:42:42,760 --> 01:42:45,000
Speaker 1: I'm not telling you if it's coming to your neighborhood

1504
01:42:45,080 --> 01:42:49,720
Speaker 1: or not. Hit people. Hit people with another thing or

1505
01:42:49,760 --> 01:42:54,280
Speaker 1: two that, uh, another titillating item or two that they'll

1506
01:42:54,360 --> 01:42:56,040
Speaker 1: encounter in your book when they go read the thing

1507
01:42:56,080 --> 01:43:07,040
Speaker 1: for real. Um, I mean the the the whole um saga,

1508
01:43:07,240 --> 01:43:10,559
Speaker 1: the Connecticut River, which I guess I'm partial too because

1509
01:43:10,600 --> 01:43:12,800
Speaker 1: I was born at it, but you know, the one

1510
01:43:12,840 --> 01:43:15,559
Speaker 1: of the greatest salmon rivers in North America. And they've

1511
01:43:15,560 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 1: spent billions trying to make it come back, and um,

1512
01:43:21,560 --> 01:43:25,680
Speaker 1: they cannot. They can. They can get the fish in

1513
01:43:25,720 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 1: the river, they can get them to spawn, and they

1514
01:43:28,360 --> 01:43:30,080
Speaker 1: can get the young to go out to sea, but

1515
01:43:30,120 --> 01:43:34,360
Speaker 1: then they don't return. And yet every once in a

1516
01:43:34,360 --> 01:43:37,160
Speaker 1: while somebody will be in some little tributary and find

1517
01:43:37,280 --> 01:43:41,800
Speaker 1: find a salmon. Really yeah, just wand and around. He's like,

1518
01:43:41,800 --> 01:43:48,040
Speaker 1: where is everybody? You know, I mentioned earlier going up

1519
01:43:48,080 --> 01:43:50,000
Speaker 1: the Great Lakes and we had our you know, are

1520
01:43:50,080 --> 01:43:54,840
Speaker 1: kind of make believe salmon there, but the you are

1521
01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 1: now and then catch one up in a farmer's drainage ditch.

1522
01:44:01,439 --> 01:44:03,240
Speaker 1: And when you kind of like looked at a map,

1523
01:44:04,080 --> 01:44:07,880
Speaker 1: you'd realize the number of wrong turns that that fish

1524
01:44:07,920 --> 01:44:12,599
Speaker 1: had made. It just kept getting just kept getting worse

1525
01:44:12,600 --> 01:44:18,120
Speaker 1: and worse. Well, you know, it's like, you know, biology

1526
01:44:18,200 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 1: got off there because they weren't supposed to be there

1527
01:44:20,160 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 1: in the first place. But you can hardly blame him.

1528
01:44:22,120 --> 01:44:24,479
Speaker 1: He's like, dude, I'm a stranger around here. Man, I

1529
01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:28,559
Speaker 1: don't know what's going on. You can get a lot

1530
01:44:28,560 --> 01:44:31,439
Speaker 1: of recipes from the book, and you can get a

1531
01:44:31,439 --> 01:44:36,080
Speaker 1: lot of Native American recipes from Alaska that will absolutely

1532
01:44:36,120 --> 01:44:40,479
Speaker 1: horrify you. Yeah. But also on that is um, it's

1533
01:44:40,560 --> 01:44:45,280
Speaker 1: it's it's it's exhaustive, not exhausting, but exhaustive in that

1534
01:44:46,400 --> 01:44:52,680
Speaker 1: um just like how Native Americans caught fish, how they

1535
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:56,479
Speaker 1: mechanics of it, so many did with it, you know.

1536
01:44:56,479 --> 01:45:01,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's a really it's it's there's a

1537
01:45:01,960 --> 01:45:04,200
Speaker 1: lot there. It's it's well worth to read. We kind

1538
01:45:04,200 --> 01:45:08,479
Speaker 1: of focused here in this conversation on an element of

1539
01:45:08,520 --> 01:45:10,880
Speaker 1: the book, and it's a big element, and it's the

1540
01:45:10,960 --> 01:45:14,719
Speaker 1: driving force of what's there. But everything is very richly

1541
01:45:15,120 --> 01:45:20,479
Speaker 1: contextualized and every um, every part of this is poked

1542
01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:24,120
Speaker 1: and prodded and explained. And it's not just meant to

1543
01:45:25,439 --> 01:45:27,519
Speaker 1: It's not a book that's just meant to deliver this

1544
01:45:27,600 --> 01:45:31,519
Speaker 1: awful news to you, but it's meant to, uh paint

1545
01:45:31,600 --> 01:45:38,799
Speaker 1: this really like lush, elaborate portrait of a beautiful collection

1546
01:45:38,840 --> 01:45:40,840
Speaker 1: of animals. And so I would urge people to go

1547
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:46,680
Speaker 1: out and check out the book Against Salmon by Mark Kurlanski,

1548
01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:51,160
Speaker 1: made available by Patagonia Books, which I which I it

1549
01:45:51,320 --> 01:45:54,240
Speaker 1: is not your that's not been your publisher in the past,

1550
01:45:54,479 --> 01:45:58,920
Speaker 1: So no, no, you can since we're all buying things

1551
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:01,480
Speaker 1: online these days. So you can get it from Patagonia,

1552
01:46:02,200 --> 01:46:03,960
Speaker 1: or you can get it you know, you can get

1553
01:46:03,960 --> 01:46:05,479
Speaker 1: it from the Amazon, but you can get it from

1554
01:46:05,479 --> 01:46:09,400
Speaker 1: your local bookstore to people don't realize that most uh

1555
01:46:09,680 --> 01:46:14,519
Speaker 1: independent bookstores have their own online service that's pretty efficient

1556
01:46:14,640 --> 01:46:17,559
Speaker 1: and you know you can go online, take the bookstore

1557
01:46:17,600 --> 01:46:19,880
Speaker 1: you like and they'll horder and ship it to you.

1558
01:46:20,320 --> 01:46:24,400
Speaker 1: All right, Mark, thanks for coming on. Um, we'll plan

1559
01:46:24,479 --> 01:46:26,479
Speaker 1: one in the future. When your next book comes out.

1560
01:46:27,560 --> 01:46:29,080
Speaker 1: I'll tell people what your next book is. I don't

1561
01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:31,000
Speaker 1: want to blow it for you, but when that goes out,

1562
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:33,599
Speaker 1: will okay if it's a lot, we can talk about

1563
01:46:33,640 --> 01:46:35,679
Speaker 1: in that to have it back on. Thank you very much.

1564
01:46:36,280 --> 01:47:00,800
Speaker 1: Thanks great talking to you guys. One