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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. To lose someone whom

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Speaker 1: you love is one of the toughest things that a

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Speaker 1: human being will ever endure. I know that for a

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Speaker 1: fact because I've had loved ones that have passed on,

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Speaker 1: and I've also been present when I have had to

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Speaker 1: tell people that their loved ones have passed on. But

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Speaker 1: you know, some say that next to a death of

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Speaker 1: a loved one, that a divorce is one of the

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Speaker 1: most brutal things a human being can go through. You

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Speaker 1: tie a lot of emotion up in it because you

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Speaker 1: see perhaps a failure, you see an end to things

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Speaker 1: that you thought had great possibilities, and there it just

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Speaker 1: crumbles right before you. And of course the really sad

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Speaker 1: part is not necessarily going your own way from the

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Speaker 1: person that you thought you were going to spend the

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Speaker 1: rest of your life with. But if you have children,

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Speaker 1: they're left in the wake many times to be battered

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Speaker 1: up against the metaphorical rocks of life. Today, we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about one such child. And this case is

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Speaker 1: special to me because it's a case that I covered

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Speaker 1: early on in my media and it impacted me, I

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Speaker 1: think probably like no other. Today we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the murder of Dylan red Wine. I'm Joseph Scott

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Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Packers, Dave. You know when

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Speaker 1: you're when you're a little boy, and you and I

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Speaker 1: used to be little boys. We spend our time playing

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Speaker 1: and having adventures, getting together with our friends, tossing the

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Speaker 1: ball around, some of the coolest times that you can experience.

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Speaker 1: But I know that for myself, I'm I am a

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Speaker 1: child of divorce. And you, yeah, and you pay a

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Speaker 1: price for it, don't you. I mean, it's not just

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Speaker 1: mom and dad that might pay a price, you know,

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Speaker 1: us kids that have been through it pay a price

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Speaker 1: as well. And sometimes those things go unseen for years

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Speaker 1: and years, and they sometimes manifest themselves later on in life.

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Speaker 2: It's interesting how most children that grow up in a

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Speaker 2: nuclear home where divorce is not president. You just have mom,

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Speaker 2: dad and the kids, and all the children have different

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Speaker 2: stories to tell about their own upbringing based on the

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Speaker 2: when they were born, whether they're first born, middle last.

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Speaker 2: And it's the same thing happens when if you're a

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Speaker 2: child of divorce, except now you extend it out because

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Speaker 2: whereas in a family that is just mom, dad and

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Speaker 2: the kids, they argue about the attention they got, or

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Speaker 2: mom loved you more, Dad loved liked you more, of

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Speaker 2: that whole thing. Well, now it's expanded because now you've

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Speaker 2: got mom and dad, plus oftentimes they're extended spouses and

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Speaker 2: other half brothers and half sisters. That it becomes a

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Speaker 2: big fray. And some kids have a way of maneuvering

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Speaker 2: through it better than others.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, i'd agree you. And it's like a race

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Speaker 1: you're you're jocking for. I never know what validation actually means.

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Speaker 1: People use that term all the time. I never really

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Speaker 1: know what it is, oh jockey. Yeah, approval Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 3: I've always thought of that.

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Speaker 2: We all want to approval. We want it from our

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Speaker 2: we want it from our mom and dad first and foremost.

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Speaker 2: And the fact, you know what I wondered, Joe in

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Speaker 2: this particular case, because I've covered it too, when when

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Speaker 2: it first began as a missing person, what happened to

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Speaker 2: this thirteen year old kid, A thirteen year old boy,

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Speaker 2: Dylan red Wine goes to visit his dad. Now his

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Speaker 2: mom and dad were divorced and Dylan did not want

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Speaker 2: to go. That was made pretty public fairly early in

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Speaker 2: this whole case, but it was Thanksgiving. He had to

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Speaker 2: go there to be with his dad for Thanksgiving. It

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Speaker 2: was court ordered, So Dylan red Wine went. He arrivees

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Speaker 2: at the airport in Colorado. Dad picks him up. We

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Speaker 2: have CCTV coverage. That's how intense this case got. We

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Speaker 2: saw him at Walmart, we saw them at McDonald's. You

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Speaker 2: don't see them being overly warm with one another. There

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Speaker 2: was a little distance while they were walking, but you

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Speaker 2: couldn't really see a whole lot. But the bottom line,

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Speaker 2: always being the bottom line. Dylan RedWine did reach out

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Speaker 2: to a friend and was going to meet him the

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Speaker 2: next morning. Now he's at dad's house. And one thing

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Speaker 2: to point out, Mark RedWine, the father. His home had

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Speaker 2: burned about six months earlier, and it had recently been remodeled,

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Speaker 2: and this was the first time that Dylan had really

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Speaker 2: been there since it had been remodeled. And that means something,

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Speaker 2: by the way, as we go further into this case,

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Speaker 2: forensically speaking, So Dylan RedWine is at this house. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't unfamiliar territory. He did have friends there and he

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Speaker 2: called a friend. He reached out to a friend in

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Speaker 2: the evening and they made plans for the next morning

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Speaker 2: at six thirty am. They were going to get to

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Speaker 2: get now something thirteen year old boys. Do you know

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Speaker 2: when you're thirteen and you've got the woods open area,

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Speaker 2: you can get out there and just I know I

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Speaker 2: did it. But oh that's an age, you know what

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Speaker 2: as a man now, I want to make sure. I

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Speaker 2: wanted to make sure my boys got it, and I

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Speaker 2: want to make sure my grandson gets it. But there

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Speaker 2: is something beautiful like going out in the woods at

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Speaker 2: thirteen and challenging yourself to you know, what can you do.

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Speaker 1: I'm in a tree trying trying to get back without

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Speaker 1: uh an open wound, bleeding.

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Speaker 3: Right in trouble. But you have usually you have a

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Speaker 3: knife though, just in case.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you have a knife. You're gonna you know,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna chop wood or yeah, uh you know, do

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Speaker 1: some whittling, or you're going to play army.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Just an adventure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. It is a grand adventure. And you

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Speaker 1: you look at that and you think and and for

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Speaker 1: kids of divorce, that's uh, that's the ultimate. Uh, that's

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Speaker 1: the ultimate fantasy world, isn't it Because you can get

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Speaker 1: out there and you can.

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Speaker 3: I never put that together Joe and you.

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Speaker 1: Can Yeah, you can escape. You can escape from the

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Speaker 1: tension that's in the house. And interesting just kind of

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Speaker 1: a little here.

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Speaker 3: I used to be.

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Speaker 1: I used to watch the show Inside the Actors Studio

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Speaker 1: where the guy would interview that James Lipton. He's passed

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Speaker 1: on now, but he would interview these actors and there

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Speaker 1: was one thing that he would always start off with

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Speaker 1: in these interviews, and he would say, we're going to

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Speaker 1: come to a common theme now that that is a

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Speaker 1: thread that runs through all of our guests. Here. You

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Speaker 1: are a child of divorce, and I would think about

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Speaker 1: that and I thought, wow, you know, where where does

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Speaker 1: some of this you know, because I don't really know

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Speaker 1: that many actors. I've got some friends that are but

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Speaker 1: not close friends, but you know, you think about where

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Speaker 1: do they get all this raw emotion from and all

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Speaker 1: these things? And I know as a divorce kid, there

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Speaker 1: is a lot of raw emotion. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: stuff that you have to work out, work through in

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Speaker 1: your mind. And I don't know. Maybe some are you know,

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Speaker 1: are drawn toward the toward the theater because just for

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Speaker 1: a moment, you can escape whatever your perception of your

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Speaker 1: reality is at that moment and at Thanksgiving, imagine Dylan

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Speaker 1: having to be away from the safety of his home

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Speaker 1: with his mother where he wanted to be, where he

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Speaker 1: wanted to be.

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Speaker 2: And it's joe interesting to point out not only did

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Speaker 2: he not want to be with his dad, the last

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Speaker 2: few times they had been together had been very tension filled,

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Speaker 2: to the point where Dylan no longer felt comfortable around

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Speaker 2: his dad. Plus, Dylan and Corey Corey is Dylan's brother,

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Speaker 2: they had found pictures on a computer of their dad. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: this divorce was already ugly. Okay, just throwing it out.

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Speaker 2: It was already ugly, and apparently Dylan and Corey both

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Speaker 2: had seen some legal documents that painted a very direct

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Speaker 2: picture of what was being claimed by their dad by

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Speaker 2: their mom. But it was the pictures they saw on

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Speaker 2: this computer that actually made them realize, this is not

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Speaker 2: a guy we want to be around. And Dylan did

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Speaker 2: not want to be there, and he had this in

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Speaker 2: the back of his head the way Mark knew it.

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Speaker 3: He knew it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the father had a complete and total awareness. And

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Speaker 1: I just so you know, you know, I made reference

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Speaker 1: to how and I don't want to make this about me,

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Speaker 1: but just to kind of give you the background when

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Speaker 1: I was asked to cover this case, and I was actually,

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Speaker 1: you know, I cover cases on Court TV. I cover

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Speaker 1: cases on a Long Crime network. And I have friends

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Speaker 1: at both places whom I care for deeply, and I'll

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Speaker 1: be friends with many of them for life. They asked

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Speaker 1: me Long Crime asked me to cover this case, and

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Speaker 1: they send you this kind of this big packet. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you're going through it and when you begin to

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Speaker 1: look at the notes of what you're going to cover,

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Speaker 1: and I begin to read through the scene, and I'm thinking, okay,

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Speaker 1: missing young boy remains have been found in you know,

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Speaker 1: two separate locations. They're skeletonized, he's missing for a time.

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Speaker 1: Oh and then there's these pictures and I'm thinking, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: well what are the pictures? And then I had to

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Speaker 1: do a double take when I began to read about them,

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Speaker 1: because you know, these pictures. When you're thinking about forensic psychology,

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Speaker 1: there are certain roles that people think about from a

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Speaker 1: sexual standpoint. People have I don't want to call them

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Speaker 1: call them predispositions. That's not necessarily what they do, but

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Speaker 1: they are what are referred to as paraphilias, and there

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Speaker 1: is a particular paraphilia that is out there that's actually

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Speaker 1: called corporophilia, and it is a fascination. I hate to

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Speaker 1: say this on my own show, but it's a fascination

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Speaker 1: with feces, and particular human feces. And if you can imagine,

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Speaker 1: you're a divorced kid, you're scared, You've got tension between

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Speaker 1: your parents, and you travel along with your brother Corey

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Speaker 1: to your father's house months prior to your disappearance, and

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Speaker 1: you're digging through your dad's computer, as you had mentioned,

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Speaker 1: and you come across a file and you look at

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Speaker 1: that file. You're in the bathroom where your brother. The

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Speaker 1: door is locked, and you click on it and there

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Speaker 1: are images of your father dressed in women's lingerie with

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Speaker 1: makeup on and human feces spread all over his face, eating.

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Speaker 2: From a diaper.

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Speaker 1: Dave, have you ever heard of someone saying I almost

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Speaker 1: died of embarrassment? You ever heard that phrase before?

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Speaker 3: I've used it before. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I actually you're talking about theater and actors a minute ago,

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Speaker 2: and I was thinking, okay, now your name in my life?

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Speaker 3: Did you get my bio as?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And it was during one of those times where I

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Speaker 2: thought I was going to be so embarrassed. I was

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Speaker 2: going to die.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it does happen. And look there, we commit

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Speaker 1: any number of faux pause in life. You know, things

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Speaker 1: we say things we shouldn't do, or we exit the

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Speaker 1: bathroom and toilet paper is hanging out of the backside

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Speaker 1: of our pants, are stuck to our shoe, or we've

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Speaker 1: got spinach in our teeth, or you know, or in

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Speaker 1: my case, when I saw a friend of mine I

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Speaker 1: hadn't seen in years and years, this lady that I

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Speaker 1: was dear friends with when I was a child, and

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Speaker 1: she she I saw her and she said, oh, I'm pregnant.

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Speaker 1: I said, I know, and she said, I just found

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Speaker 1: out yesterday. And so the meaning is is that she

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Speaker 1: had physically changed greatly and I hadn't seen her in years.

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Speaker 3: So oh she was that. Okay, I got she had.

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Speaker 1: Increased in size, and I felt, you know, I turned

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Speaker 1: fifty shades of red. And it was very embarrassed for

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Speaker 1: having said that, And you know, I followed it up

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Speaker 1: with telling her that I love that I thought that

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Speaker 1: she looked lovely, and of course i'm I'm I'm tripping

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Speaker 1: over my tongue the entire time. But when you get

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Speaker 1: when you get to the degree that Dylan's father was at,

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Speaker 1: particularly with these this paraphilia that he engaged in, and

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Speaker 1: you document it photographically, you save it, You save these

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Speaker 1: images so that I guess that you can live out

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Speaker 1: this kind of fantastical life when it's not going on,

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Speaker 1: and then suddenly your children find out about it. I

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Speaker 1: would think that that would be, I don't know, an

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Speaker 1: impetus for a rage field event.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps there was an interesting twist on this that the

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Speaker 2: boys Corey and Mark our Dylan. Rather Corey and Dylan

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Speaker 2: are the boys. They kept it to themselves at first.

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Speaker 2: They didn't immediately challenge Dad. They didn't immediately go to

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Speaker 2: him and say what are you doing?

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Speaker 3: Who are you in it? They held it. They didn't

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Speaker 3: know what to do. I mean their kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how's a kid going to know what?

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Speaker 2: So imagine here's Dylan. And by the way, Dylan and

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Speaker 2: his father were together on a trip to Boston to

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Speaker 2: play baseball. It was a little league thing that Dylan

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Speaker 2: was a part of. And it was on this trip

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Speaker 2: when Mark, Dylan, and Corey both had been talking about

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Speaker 2: confronting their father about these pictures, and Dylan apparently had

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Speaker 2: decided he was going to use this trip to Boston

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Speaker 2: to confront him. He texted, Corey, send me the pictures.

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Speaker 2: Corey didn't send him the pictures. I don't know whether

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Speaker 2: he decided I'm not going to let Dylan do it.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna do it. Corey didn't send the pictures Dylan.

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Speaker 2: He sent these pictures to their dad on this trip

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Speaker 2: and he wrote some pretty they were from an insulting standpoint,

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Speaker 2: they were pretty awesome. I don't realize I don't remember

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Speaker 2: how old Corey is. Dylan was thirteen, but Corey wrote

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Speaker 2: you are what you eat to his dad with these

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Speaker 2: pictures that he showed him. So now on this trip

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Speaker 2: to Boston, Mark RedWine realizes that both of his sons,

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Speaker 2: or at least Corey, knows about the pictures because Corey

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Speaker 2: sent them to him. All I could think of is

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Speaker 2: that at some point in time you mentioned that it's

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Speaker 2: an actual issue. It's a I didn't realize that, Joe.

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Speaker 2: I thought, you know, there's all kinds of perversions and

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Speaker 2: things that people get into. But apparently, you know, he

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Speaker 2: was in the closet with this, didn't want anybody to

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Speaker 2: know about it. And you've got pictures of him wearing

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Speaker 2: a red bra makeup and a diaper filled with Indian food,

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Speaker 2: you know, eaten by a child burst. Yeah, and I

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Speaker 2: just it boggles my mind.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's actually horrible. I've seen not just the

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Speaker 1: crime scene photos, but I've seen these seen these images

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Speaker 1: that are you know that that are essentially the little

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Speaker 1: spark that created the flame for everything. And here's an

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Speaker 1: interesting bit of forensic data that arose because there's a

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Speaker 1: whole line of texting messages that went through that kind

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Speaker 1: of ran up the spine of this whole case. When Corey,

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Speaker 1: the older brother, sent that text to his father, Interestingly enough,

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Speaker 1: Mark wrote back and responded to Corey and yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he said, uh, you know, and this is after, uh,

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Speaker 1: after Corey had told him that he's a coward, that

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Speaker 1: he was nothing more than a sperm donor. And then

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Speaker 1: Mark actually texts back to Corey the father and says, uh,

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Speaker 1: telling him not to hurt his brother. Now he's telling

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Speaker 1: the older brother not to hurt the younger brother. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess he's he's he's saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: don't show him or you know, don't show him these photos,

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Speaker 1: thinking that Corey's only wont to see him. But you know,

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Speaker 1: going to what you had said earlier, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: kind of disconnecting these these follow up visits that he

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Speaker 1: was having. Dylan had already seen him, right, This child

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Speaker 1: already had these images, you know, in his mind.

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Speaker 2: And that's why I ask you, Jo, because you've covered

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Speaker 2: this more. I thought I had covered it a lot

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Speaker 2: until I looked at what you've done with this case.

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Speaker 2: And I hate it for you because I've had nightmares

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Speaker 2: about this one. But when I saw this, and again,

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Speaker 2: my brother and I were he's two years older than

294
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Speaker 2: I am when my parents were going through divorce. And

295
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Speaker 2: it's not just the divorce, it's the things that happened

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Speaker 2: after the divorce. And that's what we're dealing with here,

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Speaker 2: is the aftermath. Even though mom and dad didn't seem

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Speaker 2: to do a good job of keeping the boys uninvolved

299
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Speaker 2: in the divorce, they were very involved. They knew everything

300
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Speaker 2: that was going on. They're old enough to know.

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Speaker 3: I guess.

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Speaker 2: But when I believe, based on what I have seen,

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Speaker 2: that Mark red Wine actually believed, Yes, Corey has these,

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Speaker 2: don't share them with your little brother, Don't hurt him.

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Speaker 2: Let's keep this between you and me and we'll deal

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Speaker 2: with it. He was trying to save face. I thought

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Speaker 2: all the while, he doesn't know that Dylan has seen

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Speaker 2: these pictures and actually wants to confront him about them.

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Speaker 3: But they had.

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Speaker 2: Already been having a bad time together, as you mentioned.

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Speaker 2: So was do you think that their relationship was so

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Speaker 2: off kilter that Mark RedWine the father didn't realize that

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Speaker 2: Dylan red Wine not only saw the pictures but had

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Speaker 2: formulated his own opinion and that was what was causing

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Speaker 2: the friction in the relationship. Was he so deluded as

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Speaker 2: to think I can turn Dylan to be back on

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Speaker 2: my side in this divorce and you know, we'll just

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Speaker 2: fight it that way.

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Speaker 1: No. I think that at this point in Tom you know,

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Speaker 1: probably Mark RedWine realized that he had crossed the rubicon

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Speaker 1: with this, and I think that more than likely he's

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Speaker 1: trying to understand and figure out what he should do next.

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Speaker 1: I think that along with this comes this this level

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Speaker 1: of humiliation and concurrently anger, and he's going to strike out.

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Speaker 1: Remember that, you know he had been texting you had

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Speaker 1: mentioned the Boston going to Boston for baseball. That was

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Speaker 1: back on August the fifth, twenty twelve. It's November the eighteenth.

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Speaker 1: Remember you talked about Thanksgiving. It's November the eighteenth. He's

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Speaker 1: had to make a trip to his dad. This is

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Speaker 1: Dylan by himself, and he arrives at his dad. The

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Speaker 1: last time he's known to be alive is November the eighteenth,

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Speaker 1: twenty twelve. So you've got all of this time August

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Speaker 1: to November for all of the stuff to bubble up,

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Speaker 1: and who knows what's going on from a communication standpoint

335
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Speaker 1: during that period of time. Is communication becoming less frequent?

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Speaker 1: Do you have you know, angry messages flying back and forth,

337
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Speaker 1: what's being set on the phone for one another? And

338
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Speaker 1: so all of this plays into trying to determine where

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Speaker 1: Dylan is at this point in time. You know, once

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Speaker 1: he goes missing on November the eighteenth, and he's under

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Speaker 1: the care of his father, you know, the dad, Mark RedWine,

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Speaker 1: says he had left to go out and run errands

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Speaker 1: and in fact, you know, when he got home he

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Speaker 1: said that, well, you know, Dylan wasn't there. He wasn't

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Speaker 1: he wasn't there, couldn't find him anywhere, And so that's

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Speaker 1: that's troubling. There was some activity on Dylan's phone. I

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Speaker 1: think probably the last phone activity was about nine pm

348
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Speaker 1: on November the eighteenth, and you know, who knows who

349
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Speaker 1: was actually using the phone at that point in time

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Speaker 1: to communicate with his friend. You know, Dylan was supposed

351
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Speaker 1: to go meet up with his buddy, and of course

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Speaker 1: that that never happened.

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Speaker 2: I would like to point out Cory RedWine is actually

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Speaker 2: several years older than Dylan. Uh, Cory red Wine actually

355
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Speaker 2: was twenty years old give or take when when this

356
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Speaker 2: was going on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he reached that age of emancipation where he if

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Speaker 1: he doesn't want to go to dad's house, he mightn't

359
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Speaker 1: have to go.

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Speaker 2: Well, I looked at it because I was wondering why,

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Speaker 2: you know, why is it? Because that that had always

362
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Speaker 2: troubled me? And I was like, wait a minute. He

363
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 2: was considerably older, and that's that's also why he was

364
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Speaker 2: so confrontational with his dad. And it also makes sense

365
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Speaker 2: as to why Mark would address him almost as as

366
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Speaker 2: a peer, as an adult, saying, don't hurt your little brother,

367
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Speaker 2: but you know, seeing him as much younger, not realizing

368
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Speaker 2: that Dylan's the one that found the photos to start

369
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Speaker 2: with and told Corey about them. But now you've got

370
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Speaker 2: the conference, the discussion where he's we've got the text

371
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Speaker 2: messages from Dylan to his friend the evening before the

372
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Speaker 2: next morning, Mark claims he goes out to run errands

373
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Speaker 2: and when he got home, Dylan was gone. That's the

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Speaker 2: scenario that he played out and stayed with. This is

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Speaker 2: where the world of forensics foggles my mind, Joe, It

376
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Speaker 2: really does, because I had no idea. I had no

377
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Speaker 2: idea of what you guys are capable of figuring out,

378
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Speaker 2: not just the next day, the next week, the next month,

379
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Speaker 2: but months and months. I mean, what can still be

380
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Speaker 2: found out, what's left behind? There is no perfect crime.

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Speaker 1: No, no, there's not. There is no perfect crime. You

382
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Speaker 1: can't do anything in a vacuum. And I, you know,

383
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Speaker 1: I always reflect back. I know of references before you

384
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Speaker 1: know where the in the Book of Genesis where you know,

385
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 1: you know, God calls out the cane and says, you know,

386
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 1: tells Caine, you know, your brother's blood cries out to

387
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,520
Speaker 1: me from the ground. And in this particular case, you've

388
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 1: got Dylan's blood is actually found within the home and

389
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 1: it's not. Later reports forensically indicate that it is. It

390
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 1: is apparently not to the level or volume that would

391
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 1: necessarily be an event that is consistent with incompatibility with life.

392
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: You know, where you've just got a tremendous amount of

393
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Speaker 1: blood that's there that maybe there was an attempt to

394
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: clean up, but they found They found some on a

395
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: coffee table, they found some on on on on a sofa,

396
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: there was actually some beneath the carpet. And interestingly enough,

397
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: it was a dog that found the blood, you know,

398
00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: with in the home, and dogs are so fascinating. You know,

399
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,359
Speaker 1: you talk about us as forensic investigators, but you know

400
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 1: when you have an animal at your disposal that has

401
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 1: this incredible all factory I call it an all factory spectrum.

402
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:18,680
Speaker 1: I know that people that are working optimology will probably

403
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,679
Speaker 1: laugh about that, but that's what I refer to it

404
00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 1: as it's a spectrum of smell that they have that

405
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: we we as humans can't even begin to touch. And

406
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: they are especially trained and on a side that folks

407
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 1: might not know. When I worked worked with a medical examiner,

408
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: we would have a lady that would come by periodically

409
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,600
Speaker 1: and she would go back into our decomp area and

410
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: she had rags that she would soak up decomp fluid

411
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,960
Speaker 1: out of the trays where the body sat and seal them,

412
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: and then take take those rags out into the woods

413
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,880
Speaker 1: and smear the trees with decomp fluid to train her

414
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: dogs with so that they would know what decomposing human

415
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:07,200
Speaker 1: remnant smelt like. And so these dogs are trained. You've

416
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 1: got two separate groups of them. You've got them that

417
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: will track the living. Okay, you think bloodhounds and those

418
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 1: sorts of things, and then you have couldaver dogs. And

419
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 1: so what's considered to be a cadaver dog, Well, postmortem,

420
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 1: there has to be some level of decay that's there

421
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 1: because it's on a different all factory spectrum, if you will.

422
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 1: And they hit on these things. They can even pick

423
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: up on the smell. Blood actually has has a foul

424
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 1: odor in and of itself even as it decomposes, and

425
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: so they'll hit along that spectrum and they'll be able

426
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: to track. But just within the house alone, they found

427
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,919
Speaker 1: Dylan's Dylan's blood. And here's the thing we're talking about.

428
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: This is not like this would have been necessarily old,

429
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,720
Speaker 1: old blood, because what did you say, in the beginning day,

430
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: this man's house had burned, it had been renovated. So

431
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,280
Speaker 1: this sample that would have been in there, would have

432
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 1: been something that probably would have been placed down in

433
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 1: that area or would have been introduced into that environment

434
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:12,600
Speaker 1: post renovation, post fire. So that narrows it down. Because

435
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: the fire, if I remember, took place like back in

436
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 1: March of twenty twelve, and Dylan goes missing November the twelfth,

437
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: and left you're left wondering, well, why would you have

438
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: multiple spots of this child's blood in this home that

439
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 1: you know he does it. He's not domiciled there, he

440
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 1: doesn't live there all the time, so you know, you

441
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: can explain it. I mean, I've had a spontaneous bloody

442
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,360
Speaker 1: nose over the course of my life. Heck, I've I've

443
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:46,880
Speaker 1: busted my head on different things, and you know, had

444
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: an open bleeding wound. Yet that does happen, and certainly,

445
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: you know, being a qualified former little boy, I know

446
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 1: that I have spouted blood any number of ways. But

447
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:03,479
Speaker 1: you know it from an investigative standpoint, how.

448
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 3: Do you get past that?

449
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 1: This is one of those moments in time where you

450
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: have to ask bigger questions. And one of the things

451
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 1: that we do know this little boy was nowhere in

452
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: that house. But something tells me the dogs are going

453
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: to play a key role in discovering diligily.

454
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:40,360
Speaker 3: Dave.

455
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: I think if I ever do a podcast, maybe as

456
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,439
Speaker 1: an adjunct to two Body Bags, where we just do

457
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 1: a little separate one, I think I might use the

458
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: title corpus DELECTI. I've always liked that term. It comes

459
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: from the Latin and it means the body of the crime,

460
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: but many times it is it is in fact the body.

461
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of people that have said,

462
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:15,959
Speaker 1: you can't prosecute a homicide without a body. And I

463
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: think that for investigators in the Dylan RedWine case, they

464
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: were wondering if I think that they suspected something was up,

465
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: but they knew that they had to find this child's

466
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: body if they were ever going to move forward with

467
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 1: a case, and certainly moving forward with out a body

468
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:32,920
Speaker 1: is a problem.

469
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 2: So Dylan goes missing November nineteenth, twenty twelve, they don't

470
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 2: find him. There was wather situations to deal with with

471
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 2: regard to being able to put out a search for him.

472
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 2: It wasn't until the following year, in twenty thirteen, when

473
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: and it was the femur, but it was both femurs, right, yes, yeah, Now,

474
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 2: what are the odds of finding that, you know, something

475
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 2: so specific legbones. Yeah, without finding everything, it just seems odd.

476
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of does to me too, But.

477
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 3: That's what they found in twenty thirteen.

478
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was actually in June. So this is going

479
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: to be after everything is thought. Remember we're in a

480
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: higher elevation in Colorado. It's to say that that Colorado

481
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: winners are brutal is certainly an understatement. It's terrifying that weather,

482
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, during those periods of time, right, and you

483
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: know when Dylan went missing, they were right on the

484
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: cusp of that moment in time. I think that they

485
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 1: had already had some snowfall when Dylan had missed, had

486
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: gone missing back in twelve. But moving forward, you know,

487
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: you have to get out beyond that period the thaw

488
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 1: before you're going to find anything. And what did occur

489
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 1: is that I think it was roughly ten miles away

490
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: from Mark Redwine's home that the left and the right

491
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: femurs are actually found.

492
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,600
Speaker 2: So if you and never found on a road, Joe, Yeah,

493
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: that was odd. They found it eight miles from his house.

494
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 2: Eight miles from his house they find the bones, but

495
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: they're on a road. Why would they find bones on

496
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: a road in June.

497
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so that to me, many times, if temperature drops, okay,

498
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: you'll have the body that will go into it won't

499
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: stop decomposing, but it will slow the decompositional process down

500
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: a bit, particularly if temperatures at a high elevation really

501
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: start to dip. And so they could have been deposited

502
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: off of the road some distance, say on an ATV trail,

503
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: And we do know that Mark or red Wine had

504
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 1: an ATV and they're deposited there and then once an animal,

505
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 1: once an animal begins to smell these these decomposing remains.

506
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 1: Remember they're actually found in June. There's nothing to say

507
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: that an animal would not have come by grabbed this

508
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: lower portion of the body. And it's not just the

509
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: lower portion in the body. When they found the left

510
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: and the right femurs, they actually found the right clavical

511
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: So if you will touch, if you will, if you're

512
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: listening to my voice right now, it's your collarbone, and

513
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,480
Speaker 1: it's your right collarbone. That's what they found of Dylan's.

514
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: And in addition to that, they found the tibia, which

515
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: is one of the lower leg bones.

516
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 3: There's two.

517
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: You have the tibia, and the fibula that are in

518
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: the lower leg. Well, they found the right tibia, so

519
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: you've got two and it's an odd combination in it, Dave,

520
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: You've got the left and the right femur, which are

521
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 1: the large robust bones in the legs. You've got the

522
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: right clavical which is the collarbone, and then you've got

523
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: this right tibia. So you know, as forensic forensic scientists,

524
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that you're thinking about

525
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: once this has been identified as human remains, you can't

526
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: necessarily say that it belongs to a specific person at

527
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: that point in time. But when you begin to examine

528
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 1: these and you're thinking, well, why do I only have

529
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: these items? Well, am I looking at a case where

530
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 1: we've got an animal that has torn a body apart?

531
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: Or do I have a case where another animal, a

532
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: human has torn a body apart and deposited the parts

533
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: in various areas, And so, you know, you begin to

534
00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: think about this. If it's a human, then one of

535
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 1: the things that you're going to look for on the

536
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: surface of the bones are going to be tool marks,

537
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: because that's how that's what we do. We've got opposable

538
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: thumbs and we work with tools, and so if you're

539
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: going to take a part of human body, you're going

540
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: to need the tools to do that. And it's very

541
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: I don't know of any possible way that you could

542
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:52,200
Speaker 1: dismember a human remain without utilizing some kind of metal

543
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 1: tool in order to do that. So these bones would

544
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: have to be carefully examined to you know, kind of

545
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: either rule that in or rule it out.

546
00:32:59,200 --> 00:32:59,360
Speaker 3: Now.

547
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 2: One thing they did is after they found the bones

548
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 2: in June of twenty thirteen, it took a couple of weeks,

549
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,840
Speaker 2: but in August, about eight weeks after they find those bones,

550
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 2: they're able to search the house and the truck. That's

551
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 2: when they find they bring in the cadaver dogs. A

552
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: human cadaver dog is brought into Mark Redwine's home and

553
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 2: that's where the dogs were hitting on saying that there

554
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:29,200
Speaker 2: had been the corpse of a deceased person had been present.

555
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: That's the actual the way they wrote it out. It

556
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: had been present in that home, also in the uh

557
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: the bed of his truck. And this was after they'd

558
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 2: found those bones, but they didn't find all of them.

559
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 2: And one comment Mark RedWine made to a friend of

560
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 2: his that really came back to haunt him before they

561
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: found anything. Mark RedWine made the comment, I guess they

562
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: were talking about, how do you charge anybody, you know,

563
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 2: if he was killed, if he you know, just I'm

564
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,720
Speaker 2: trying to picture a conversation you would have with somebody

565
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:08,440
Speaker 2: that would include the term blunt force trauma from a

566
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 2: dad talking about his son when he doesn't know what

567
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 2: has happened to his son. Why, for the life of me,

568
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 2: I can can't figure out, Joe. That's just not a

569
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: term I would want to use about a loved one,

570
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 2: much less would even think about using.

571
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 3: But he did.

572
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 2: Mark RedWine talked about blunt force trauma and well, they

573
00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 2: need to find his head. Talking about police in order

574
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: to determine that his son had been murdered by blunt

575
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 2: force trauma, Well, they'd need to find his head.

576
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. How is it that you're you're comfortable enough to

577
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: make that comment and it's so very specific, you know,

578
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: you can reformulate that to talk about well, you know, gee,

579
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: I hope they find my son's body and maybe there'll

580
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,400
Speaker 1: be information can tained on it that'll let us know

581
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: what happened. Okay, that's that's kind of the sympathetic view.

582
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,799
Speaker 1: But then you begin to look at this from the

583
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: perspective of, well, you're being very specific here, very specific,

584
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: because blunt force is something that we normally talk about

585
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: in the realm of forensics and specifically forensic pathology, and

586
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: it's it's so, it's so, it has such a fine

587
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 1: point on it, and not just fine point when you're

588
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: talking about method that is used, but also Dave, when

589
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,760
Speaker 1: you begin to think about anatomical location, because he states,

590
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: you know that you'd have to find the skull and

591
00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: and you know, I'm sure, much to his chagrin, Dylan

592
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: skull was actually found, Well, what turned out to be

593
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: Dylan skull. Hikers actually found the skull on November the third,

594
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: two thousand and five, fifteen, and it took them all

595
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: the way to May the twenty fifth of twenty sixteen

596
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: to get the skull positively identified. At that point in time, why.

597
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: Would it take so long? But I do want to

598
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,840
Speaker 2: add something to this too, Joe, Yeah, all right, they

599
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 2: made a note where his the first the partial remains

600
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 2: were found in June twenty thirteen. They go and how

601
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: it discover the cadaver dogs hitting in the house and

602
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 2: in the truck bed and then the hikers almost three

603
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,840
Speaker 2: years nearly, I mean November third, twenty fifteen, is just

604
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 2: about three years after he goes missing. They find his skull,

605
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: and it's now further away. It's two miles, it's about

606
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 2: ten miles from the house. And the one thing that

607
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 2: Mark RedWine had said out loud is he believed wild

608
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 2: animals had attacked and had drug him. And one of

609
00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 2: the experts of wildlife expert actually is determined that quote

610
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: no animal known to be in the area would transport

611
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: a body up the mountain from mister Redwine's residence to

612
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 2: the first recovery site, or would transport the skull an

613
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: additional one point five miles through the terrain where the

614
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 2: skull was found. Yes, there's mony indictment.

615
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:19,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're not going to do that. And I

616
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: concur with with the with the expert in this case

617
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,319
Speaker 1: and in my experience with where you have what are

618
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: referred to as a surface deposition of human remains, which

619
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: means these are non these are non buried remains. These

620
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: are these are remains that are left on top of

621
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:41,879
Speaker 1: the ground. Now, I'm not saying that at some point

622
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 1: in time the remains could not have been buried and

623
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: then kind of dug up.

624
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 3: But the surface deposition.

625
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, surface deposition. And essentially what that means is that

626
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: if you think about Okay, I'll give you a good example,

627
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 1: think about Brian Laundry. Okay, they found him in the swamps. Well,

628
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,240
Speaker 1: when Brian Laundry's remains were found out in the swamp,

629
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 1: his body was not buried. That's a surface deposition of

630
00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: the body. In total. Now with with these remains, it's

631
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: over such a massive area. And David, it's not like

632
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: it's not like, you know, here in the in the

633
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 1: Deep South, we're gonna walk down a dirt road together

634
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 1: carrying something in our hand and throw out one item

635
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 1: here and throw another. You're talking about undulating, uneven terrain

636
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: that rises and falls at pitches. We can't even fathom,

637
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: particularly those of us that live that are flat landers,

638
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: that live in these in these areas around here, the

639
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,319
Speaker 1: terrain varies so much. Most animals when they scavenge. And

640
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 1: this is one other thing before I forget it, I

641
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 1: wanted to mention when Dylan died or was turned up missing.

642
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 1: It was shortly after that that I think that Mark

643
00:38:55,080 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: RedWine had had, you know, put forth this idea that

644
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: perhaps a bear had gotten it, but the experts, and

645
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 1: this gives you an idea of the temperatures at this time.

646
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: The experts said that by the time that Dylan had

647
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 1: gone missing in November twelve, the bears would have gone

648
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: into hibernation by that time, so they're not out and about.

649
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: And you compare this to the Morphew case. What did

650
00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 1: Barry Morphew say about his wife? Well, Mountain lion.

651
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 3: Got mountainline guy.

652
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's only three. They're very territorial, and three

653
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 2: in the area, and that one was nowhere near where

654
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: he was.

655
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

656
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,759
Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting how people blame animals for these sorts

657
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: of things. And with most surface depositions of skeletal remains,

658
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: where you have bodies, let's just put it this way,

659
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: where you have bodies that are you have bodies that

660
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: are intact, okay, that means that nothing has been done

661
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: with them. As they decay on the ground, animals will

662
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: come and they'll generally start in areas that they can

663
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,080
Speaker 1: get access to. So if you've got a closed body,

664
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: they're going to go for the face, They're going to

665
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 1: go for the fingers, all right, And they start to pull,

666
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: and as the body begins to deteriorate, things are more

667
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: easily pulled apart till they begin to tear at the clothing. Now,

668
00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: some of Dylan's clothing was found. There were remnants of

669
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 1: clothing out there, including I think shoes as well. But

670
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: here here's the thing. You're not going to have them

671
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: spreading remains over this vast, uneven terrain, and I think

672
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: the skull what what was okay? So the lower remains

673
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 1: this this deposition of the femurs eight miles away, along

674
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: with the clavicle and the tibia. That's eight miles away.

675
00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: You've got to go another mile and a half up,

676
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: you know, increasing in elevation where you're gonna find his head.

677
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 1: It just it, you know, as they say down here

678
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: in the South, that dog don't hunt, and so it's

679
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: just it's just one of those things that it just

680
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 1: it defies all logic. Animals are not going to drag.

681
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: If they're in a particular area kind of scavenging. They're

682
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 1: gonna grab whatever they can grab. They're gonna take it back.

683
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: And the smaller animals, you know, you can forget about

684
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: that because if you're talking about coyotes, these are not huge,

685
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: robust animals where they're gonna walk miles and miles and

686
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 1: it's not like the savannahs of Africa or a lion

687
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: or something. They're not gonna walk miles and miles and

688
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,399
Speaker 1: miles with something that they're gonna they're gonna eat. They're

689
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: going to go very short distances, sit down, and they're

690
00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:25,520
Speaker 1: going to begin to ingest their food.

691
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 2: So if that is what happened, this makes no sense.

692
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 2: But what does make sense is you've got body parts,

693
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 2: You've got his remains found at eight miles away than

694
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 2: a mile and a half up the mountain, you find

695
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,400
Speaker 2: his skull. But what did they find on the skull, Joe,

696
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 2: Because we remember Mark RedWine made the comment, well, they

697
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: can't do anything without finding, you know, without the head

698
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: because and he mentioned that's where the blunt force trauma

699
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 2: came in. By the way, still an unexplainable comment that

700
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:57,839
Speaker 2: he made, and it has been brought up at court.

701
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 2: It was brought up in each stage of along this way,

702
00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 2: because who would say that other than somebody guilty of

703
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: doing such a thing. But what did that skull tell investigators?

704
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: Well? Other you know, well, baseline, they were finally able

705
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: to get Dylan's remains identified off.

706
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: Of Oh yeah, yeah, Okay, back to that you said, Okay,

707
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 2: they found the skull in November, but it was May

708
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 2: of the next year before they could even identify it.

709
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the images that I've seen of the skull

710
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 1: seems like that it would make dental id very very

711
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: difficult on him. And by the time you're Dylan's age

712
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: in life, you will have had some type of dentistry performed.

713
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: And many people might not know this. I'm sure that

714
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: DNA came into play in Dylan's case, but did you

715
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: know that there are certain cases where we're trying to

716
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: identify bodies if we don't have teeth. Well, actually, forensic

717
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: codentologists who look at the dental X rays, well, we've

718
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 1: I've been involved in cases where we use the sinuses

719
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 1: to identify people. So you can do a comparison between

720
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: sinuses of anti mortem X rays with post mortem X

721
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: rays of the skull. So if you've got you know,

722
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 1: you've got sinuses throughout your head. They're not just anterior,

723
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: you have some posterior as well.

724
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 3: They are these little.

725
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 1: Chambers in your body and they have certain patterns when

726
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 1: you look at them. On radiographs X rays. You can

727
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: actually compare antimortem with post mortem images and you can

728
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 1: get X rays. You can use that as a starting

729
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: point to get the identification done, and then a forensic

730
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 1: anthropologist will take the skull and they'll begin to do

731
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: measurements in a very broad sense. So when you're a

732
00:43:39,200 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: thirteen year old, your skull has not fully matured at

733
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 1: that point to the same size that it's going to

734
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: be when you're a full grown adult. So there are

735
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:53,279
Speaker 1: certain measurements that forensic anthropologists will make in order to

736
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: determine does this individual fit it within this demographic that

737
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,600
Speaker 1: we're looking for. We're talking about thirteen year old white male.

738
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: Does this skull that we have even begin to marginally

739
00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: fit into that? And so you begin to narrow down

740
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:11,919
Speaker 1: from there. But further examination by the forensic anthropologies found

741
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: found four items that are of significance. First off, they

742
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: found evidence of these kind of what we refer to

743
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: as curvelinear fractures on the skull. And when I say curvelinear,

744
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 1: it's a fancy way of saying that you've got these

745
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: fractures that are kind of in a line, but they

746
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 1: also slightly curve, and that gives you an idea that

747
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 1: and they're separate, they're not communicating, which means that they

748
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:45,280
Speaker 1: do not touch one another. Those are two specific areas

749
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 1: of blunt force trauma that Delan would have sustained, and

750
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: these were located in the back of the head. The

751
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: skull fractures do not appear to be depressed skull fractures

752
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: where the plug of bone has been knocked down in there.

753
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: But it's enough potentially of a concussive four that it

754
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,879
Speaker 1: could kill him. And here's the other thing that will

755
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: send a chill up your spine about this. Remember how

756
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: we were going on about how these remains were separated, Well, Dave,

757
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:19,120
Speaker 1: one of the things that the forensic anthropologists found on

758
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:25,640
Speaker 1: Dylan's skull were two tiny linear tool marks that are

759
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: consistent with a knife blade.

760
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 3: So what does that tell us?

761
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 1: Why would this child have knife blade marks on the

762
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: external table of his skull. Now, one of the defense

763
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:43,320
Speaker 1: experts at Mark Redwine's trial actually put forth the idea, well,

764
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: that's probably from an animal. The teeth marks of an

765
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: animal look completely different than a milled edge of a blade,

766
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 1: and these things are very uniformed. You can tell that

767
00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: this was generated.

768
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 3: By a tool.

769
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 1: So the big question you have to ask, after Mark

770
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:06,680
Speaker 1: Redwin was put to shame as a result of what

771
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: his boys had discovered, after he thinks about it for

772
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: some time about what he's going to do, did he

773
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 1: allow that colonel to be planted within his brain that

774
00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,719
Speaker 1: drove him into such a fit of rage that he

775
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:25,280
Speaker 1: would get his son by himself on a Thanksgiving holiday,

776
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: get him in that house alone, beat.

777
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 3: Him to death.

778
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: And destroy his mobile remains. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

779
00:46:38,160 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 1: this his body backs