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Speaker 1: There's only one you, and there will only ever be

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Speaker 1: one you. I always say that because think about the

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Speaker 1: chances of you even existing. The fact that you exist

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Speaker 1: is so rare. I don't even know what the number is.

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Speaker 1: It's so small. So you're here for a reason. So

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Speaker 1: everyone should take the time to understand what is the

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Speaker 1: science of your happiness? And when I say that, how

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Speaker 1: can you become happy if you don't know what's making

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Speaker 1: you unhappy? So try to understand where you're losing your

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Speaker 1: points of joy every day so then you can be

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Speaker 1: strategic about adding it back.

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Speaker 2: Hey, ba Fam, welcome back to Brown Ambition. It's your

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Speaker 2: girl Mandy Money, and I first of all just want

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Speaker 2: to say thank you so much for the incredible support

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Speaker 2: y'all have been showing Brown Ambition lately. I am getting

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Speaker 2: so many comments on Spotify. You can comment on episodes

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Speaker 2: on Spotify and my YouTube. Fam, I have yet to

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Speaker 2: find the toxic side of YouTube where people are acting

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Speaker 2: out in the comments and spreading vile hate. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I think, ba Fam, y'all just bring so much positivity

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Speaker 2: and I just want to say thank you and acknowledge

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Speaker 2: that y'all spend time pouring your hearts out to me

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Speaker 2: and leaving me feedback. I read every single review, every

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Speaker 2: single comment, every single email. In fact, I got an

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Speaker 2: email from a listener a couple days ago in response

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Speaker 2: to my interview with Tiffany the Budgetista last week and

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Speaker 2: if you haven't listened to that episode, what do you wait?

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Speaker 2: Just go do it now? And it was such a

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Speaker 2: heartfelt message. I screenshoted it, I shared it with Tiffany.

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Speaker 2: I'm putting it on my wall of feedback fame. I

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Speaker 2: actually have this as a tool when I'm feeling a

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Speaker 2: little down some days or I'm starting to doubt myself,

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Speaker 2: I will open up this file on my computer where

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Speaker 2: I just kind of get screenshots of comments and feedback.

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Speaker 2: So that's exactly where that is going. And I thank

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Speaker 2: y'all so much for all the love. Today's show is

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Speaker 2: a truly on me along awaited one. Honestly, I couldn't

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Speaker 2: believe when today's guest slid into my DMS because she's

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Speaker 2: been on my dream list of guests for a long time,

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Speaker 2: and she even had the audacity to introduce herself as

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Speaker 2: if I did not already know who doctor Judith Joseph is.

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Speaker 2: I have been such a fan ever since. I was

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Speaker 2: actually at iHeart waiting in the green room to be

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Speaker 2: a guest on a show, and they had a shelf

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Speaker 2: of books, and I'm greedy and I love to read,

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Speaker 2: and I know that they were up for grabs, so

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Speaker 2: I'm looking to see what's there, and the title high

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Speaker 2: Functioning sort of jumped out at me, and I picked

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Speaker 2: up the book, and sure enough, it was the best

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Speaker 2: selling book by doctor Judith Joseph, all about how we

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Speaker 2: can overcome high functioning depression and start living a more

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Speaker 2: joyful life. And that book really put words and a

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Speaker 2: framework and really gave me insight into how I have

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Speaker 2: been sort of high functioning for so many years. And

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Speaker 2: there's a reason it's a bedseller because I am not alone.

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Speaker 2: And in her work as a psychiatrist, doctor Joseph has

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Speaker 2: really been able to not even like this high functioning

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Speaker 2: is not even really a diagnosis right now, high functioning depression.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Judith has made it so. She has raised awareness

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Speaker 2: to it. She's given us all sort of a spotlight

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Speaker 2: and words that we can use to describe the way

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Speaker 2: that we are going through the motions. So if you're

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Speaker 2: someone who is on this like path of this path

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Speaker 2: to pathological productivity, which doctor Judith talks about. If you

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Speaker 2: are constantly grinding and you're getting results, right, like you're

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Speaker 2: making your coins, you're stacking them, you are building that wealth,

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Speaker 2: you're Brown Ambition personified. But if it feels like at

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Speaker 2: the end of the day, you're not really like able

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Speaker 2: to tap into a sense of peace and joy, enjoyment

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Speaker 2: like happiness, if those things seem a little bit far

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Speaker 2: removed from where you're at in your life, Doctor Judith,

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Speaker 2: and all the work that she does is researching into

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Speaker 2: why is that? And how can we overcome this? How

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Speaker 2: can we sort of like bring together our journey toward more,

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Speaker 2: earning more, having that career of our dreams, getting the

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Speaker 2: partner of our dreams, having the family of our dreams,

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Speaker 2: retiring early, whatever those goals are, How can we sort

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Speaker 2: of align that so that when we end up at

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Speaker 2: that destiny, because we're grinding so hard, we're going to

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Speaker 2: get there, But when we finally get there, that we

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Speaker 2: actually feel that joy and feel that sense of happiness

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Speaker 2: at the end of the day. Isn't that all what

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Speaker 2: we're chasing and looking for? If you've listened to Brown

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Speaker 2: Ambition for a while, y'all know that I have also

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Speaker 2: talked about my personal journey with depression and anxiety and

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Speaker 2: all the things, especially after becoming a mom and sort

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Speaker 2: of being you know, all of life just happening all

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Speaker 2: at once all the time, and the pressure feeling so

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Speaker 2: real and at the same time building it. You know,

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Speaker 2: y'all know understand very well all the things that I

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Speaker 2: do and all the things that y'all are doing day

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Speaker 2: to day that's causing you to sometimes just feel like

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Speaker 2: it's an act of survival, just kind of getting through

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Speaker 2: every day. And I'm really excited to have Doctor Judith

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Speaker 2: on this show because it's not just about me and

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Speaker 2: what I'm going through. I really want to talk to

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Speaker 2: her about how we can all, using her framework, tap

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Speaker 2: into more enjoyment, more joy day to day, find that

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Speaker 2: sparkle back in our lives, not sacrificing our goals, but

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Speaker 2: finding a way, like I said, to tie them both together.

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Speaker 2: She's going to talk about her five VISE framework Validation, Vulnerability, Values, Vision, Vitality,

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Speaker 2: which offers a really beautiful roadmap that we can use

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Speaker 2: for healing and redefining success beyond just busyness and burnout.

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Speaker 2: And today we're going to dive into what it really

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Speaker 2: means to protect your peace while pursuing your purpose, Doctor Judith.

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Speaker 2: I am so excited to welcome her to Brown Ambition.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna stop yapping now and get into my conversation

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Speaker 2: with the wonderful doctor Judith, and make sure you check

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Speaker 2: the show notes. I'll have links to her social media

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Speaker 2: handles to where you can pick up your copy of

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Speaker 2: High Functioning. And I'm going to let y'all enjoy the

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Speaker 2: interview now, Aliva, fam here is my conversation with the

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Speaker 2: doctor Judith. Joseph enjoy all right, Doctor Judith, welcome to

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Speaker 2: Brown Ambition.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's such a long time coming. At

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Speaker 2: the same time, your book High Functioning is still a baby.

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Speaker 2: It's only been out for less than a year now. Yes,

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Speaker 2: how has it been? I mean congratulations. First of all,

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Speaker 2: I feel like it's been a huge hit thing. It's

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Speaker 2: been the book that we all needed. What has it

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Speaker 2: been like, you know, in the world, taking this message

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Speaker 2: of high functioning depression to the masses.

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Speaker 1: Well, I did not think. I didn't anticipate that it

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Speaker 1: would cross continents. I did not anticipate it, you know,

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Speaker 1: having a book in over twenty countries in over seventeen languages.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: When I wrote about this book, it was about my

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Speaker 1: personal experience dealing with high function depression, being a perfectionist,

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Speaker 1: having what it looks like everything, but still feeling a

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Speaker 1: lack of joy. So it surprised me a bit. But

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Speaker 1: it shouldn't have because I know that joy is universal

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Speaker 1: and a lack of joy is also a universal experience.

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Speaker 3: Right, We're all built with a.

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Speaker 1: Day for joy, Right, We're all built with it in

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Speaker 1: our DNA, and we forget how to claim it. We're

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Speaker 1: all human beings and the experience of joy as a

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Speaker 1: human is something that keeps us getting up every day,

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Speaker 1: moving forward, getting through struggles.

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Speaker 3: It shouldn't have surprised me, but it did.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm really I mean, I just think that sometimes

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Speaker 2: there are those books that are specific, but because they're specific,

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Speaker 2: like they're just so universal. I'm not surprised at all

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Speaker 2: that many different countries and different cultures all have some

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Speaker 2: version of this. Can you start from the beginning, like

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Speaker 2: where did the book come from, how did it come

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Speaker 2: to be, and what actually is high functioning depression? For

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Speaker 2: listeners who maybe haven't read it.

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Speaker 1: Yet, Well, you and I were chatting about how my

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Speaker 1: lab is a couple of blocks from here in midtown,

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Speaker 1: and I have this research lab where I do a

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Speaker 1: lot of really I think cool stuff. We do psychedelic

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Speaker 1: research where we enroll patients into these studies where normally

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Speaker 1: you can't get these medications anywhere. They're FDA regulated, the

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Speaker 1: government has to oversee these studies. But we try to

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Speaker 1: come up with new medications to treat things that are

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Speaker 1: really tough to treat, like PTSD, postpartum depression, treatment resistant depression,

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Speaker 1: and some of the newer drugs for some of those

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Speaker 1: were developed from studies in our lab. So we do

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Speaker 1: a lot of groundbreaking things. But you know, one of

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Speaker 1: the things that I think was lacking in my life

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Speaker 1: as a researcher was joy. And I thought, well, I

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Speaker 1: have this lab, I have this great team, all these

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Speaker 1: fancy degrees. Everything looks put together, but I'm still really

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Speaker 1: lacking joy.

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Speaker 3: I'm joyless.

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Speaker 1: Why don't we study how to reclaim joy in mental health?

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Speaker 1: Why are we always trying to fix a problem? Right,

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Speaker 1: We're trying to fix someone who's broken down. We're trying

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Speaker 1: to cure something. But there are a lot of us

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Speaker 1: who walk around every day and we don't break down.

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Speaker 1: We're not in distress.

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Speaker 3: We have all these symptoms of.

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Speaker 1: Depression, but we're lacking joy and we're lacking the tools,

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Speaker 1: and we do the opposite of breaking down. Like myself,

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Speaker 1: we overwork where the mom were the rock, where the

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Speaker 1: sister or the sibling we're the go to at work,

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Speaker 1: but we're lacking joy. We're not breaking down. We're coping

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Speaker 1: with our symptoms by being busy. So why don't I

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Speaker 1: write a protocol and study this and try to figure

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Speaker 1: out what is it that makes some people break down

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Speaker 1: but others overwork to cope with their distress.

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Speaker 2: And you almost, well, let me the concept of high

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Speaker 2: functioning depression. That's not even like in the DSM, right,

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Speaker 2: which is the bible of mental health. Right, it's like

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Speaker 2: how you define and diagnose certain things. So are our

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Speaker 2: therapists psychiatrists today, are they even able to assess someone

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Speaker 2: and say like, oh, I think that you are depressed,

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Speaker 2: but you are so accomplished and you're doing everything like

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Speaker 2: maybe we should talk about that.

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Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you years ago when I started talking

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Speaker 1: about it, a lot of my colleagues were saying, why

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Speaker 1: are you so focused? On people who are not broken down.

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Speaker 1: We should be focusing on people we need to save.

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Speaker 1: And I think a lot of healthcare professionals have a

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Speaker 1: savior complex, like they want to feel I think that

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Speaker 1: they're doing something and they're fixing a problem. But I

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Speaker 1: think that we miss out on a lot of folks,

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Speaker 1: the majority of folks who are struggling, but they don't

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Speaker 1: have a word or even a box to fit themselves

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Speaker 1: into to get the help they need. I think it's

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Speaker 1: a part of medicine where we code things you have

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Speaker 1: to meet neatly into a little box and then we

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Speaker 1: do something. So it's a part of the culture of

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Speaker 1: the healthcare system in medicine in general. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of people get missed. And I've had so many people

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Speaker 1: in my community who follow me saying, I went to

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Speaker 1: the doctor, I had all these symptoms and they told

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Speaker 1: me to come back when I break down, and I

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Speaker 1: just literally, lord of.

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Speaker 3: Because you can't code for it, right. Yeah, And so

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Speaker 3: I feel like there.

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Speaker 1: Was this need to create resources, to create answers for

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Speaker 1: people who were just like me, who on the outside

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Speaker 1: were pathologically productive but on the inside we're lacking joy

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Speaker 1: so that we don't break.

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Speaker 2: Down pathologically Okay, tell me the expert definition of pathological, Like,

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Speaker 2: what does that mean? Pathologically productive? Because in my mind,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, that's me, it's so many of us. What

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Speaker 2: does it actually mean.

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Speaker 1: When people think of patho logical, they think of pathological liar,

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Speaker 1: But patho from I think it's the Greek or Latin.

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Speaker 1: I get the two mixed up. But it means disease,

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Speaker 1: like as in like a condition, right, So pathological doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean good. It means that it's something to fix. But

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Speaker 1: when you think of productivity, that's like the opposite of pathology.

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Speaker 1: Productivity is a good thing in our society. We're in

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Speaker 1: a capitalist world where it's like, yeah, you should be moving.

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Speaker 1: As long as you're producing, you're okay. And I think

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Speaker 1: that the healthcare industry or the profession we look at

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Speaker 1: people who are moving and doing and we're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we don't have to worry about you. But when we're

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Speaker 1: not moving and doing, then we jump in to save you.

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Speaker 1: But I think that's not the right model to follow

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Speaker 1: because we're just literally waiting for people to break down

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Speaker 1: when we can be preventing a breakdown. And I was

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Speaker 1: seeing all these other areas of medicine. Some of my

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Speaker 1: friends from medical school, they won't have to be cardiologists

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Speaker 1: and they won't have to be cancer doctors. And they're

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Speaker 1: trying to prevent a heart attack. They're trying to prevent

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Speaker 1: a cancer. They're not saying come back when you're stage four.

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Speaker 1: They're not saying come back when your heart self speeding.

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Speaker 1: They're saying, let's prevent it. So why were we in

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Speaker 1: mental health waiting for people to break down? So we

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Speaker 1: should be thinking that way too. We should be having

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Speaker 1: this renaissance of let's not wait for people to check

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Speaker 1: that box of you're no longer functioning if we see

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Speaker 1: all these symptos of depression, let's try to prevent that

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Speaker 1: breakdown by helping you to reclaim your joy.

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Speaker 2: It's a little scary as someone who and I don't

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Speaker 2: think I even told you this. I was here like

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Speaker 2: over this in the spring. Your book must have just

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Speaker 2: come out. I was here at iHeart. I was about

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Speaker 2: to be a guest on another show, and I was

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Speaker 2: in the green room and looking at the shelf and

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Speaker 2: your book was on the shelf of like freebies, and

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Speaker 2: I'm selfish and greedy and I love books, so I'd

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Speaker 2: grab like a stack of books. Yours was among the books.

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Speaker 2: I think you even signed it. I was like, she

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Speaker 2: signed it to me, and I read it in one night,

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Speaker 2: in one sitting, and part of me was like, well, damn,

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Speaker 2: I wish I had this five years ago, because what

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Speaker 2: you know, we're going to get into the frame where

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Speaker 2: of how you can sort of reclaim that joy if

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Speaker 2: you are teetering on the edge of or you're in

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Speaker 2: a state of high functioning depression. Unfortunately at the time,

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Speaker 2: I was teetering into that low functioning depression. But at

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Speaker 2: the same time, on a personal level, thank you for

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Speaker 2: the book, because I've read it in one night and

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Speaker 2: it did give me a glimmer of hope. More than

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Speaker 2: a glimmer, sort of gave me, like I said, like

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Speaker 2: the vocabulary I could use to describe what I was

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Speaker 2: going through in just a sense that Okay, this is

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Speaker 2: something that I can claw my way back out from.

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Speaker 2: So thank you.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that book was for you. I was laughing,

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Speaker 1: not at your story, but I was laughing because after

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Speaker 1: I think I was on the Breakfast club that day

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Speaker 1: and I came into the green room and Neo was

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Speaker 1: sitting there, like the singer.

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Speaker 3: I was like, oh, wait, should I give this book

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Speaker 3: to Neo WI? Should I leave it here? I was like, no,

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Speaker 3: he's gonna get the right idea.

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Speaker 1: So I like stuffed it into the bookshelp and I

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Speaker 1: was like, someone's going to get this book who needs it?

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Speaker 3: And that was you.

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Speaker 2: I was me, Oh my god, not me. I get

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Speaker 2: a little emotion. Doesn't take much make me cry these days.

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Speaker 2: Ever since having kid, I am like an open wound.

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Speaker 2: I just feel like I'm just yeah all the time,

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Speaker 2: on the edge of crying.

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Speaker 3: How old are your kids?

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Speaker 2: There's six and almost three?

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Speaker 3: Ah? Yeah, it was a tender ages, very.

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Speaker 2: Tender and brutal. You know, not because they're brutal, but yeah,

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Speaker 2: just it adds to It's part of that picture of

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Speaker 2: you know, the picture of the dream, right. I didn't

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Speaker 2: know I wanted to be a mom, but then once

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Speaker 2: I became a mom, I was like, oh, I'm really

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Speaker 2: good at this and I really love this and it's

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Speaker 2: such a source of joy. But as someone who is

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Speaker 2: also pathologically productive, I didn't for a long time know

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Speaker 2: how to like marry those two things, which I know

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Speaker 2: as I'm saying that, anyone who's listening is like yeah,

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Speaker 2: no work luck balance moms, like we all go through it,

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Speaker 2: but really struggled with how do I turn off one

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Speaker 2: or the other? And how can I still be that

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Speaker 2: version of myself that I tied up so much of

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Speaker 2: my value in, you know, being productive and putting out

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Speaker 2: brown ambition while having you know, a full time job

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Speaker 2: and by the way, being a host of brown ambition

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Speaker 2: and being perfect with money and making all the best choices.

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Speaker 2: And then you have these kids who comment and it's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's like pretty bad money choice just to begin with,

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Speaker 2: because of the expense of it. And yeah, I think

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Speaker 2: part of my you know, my struggle with depression. I

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Speaker 2: think a lot of us in this messy middle phase

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Speaker 2: of life where you're managing family and career, it starts

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Speaker 2: to play with my sense of self and I had

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Speaker 2: I am in the process of like redefining my own value.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense at all? Like redefining what makes

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Speaker 2: me excellent and successful and accomplished. Doesn't look like it

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Speaker 2: used to.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people with who identify with high

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Speaker 1: functioning depression, they kind of get derived their self worth

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Speaker 1: from their role, right, So your role or you know,

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Speaker 1: could be that at one point you're the entrepreneur and

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Speaker 1: the leader, the thought leader. But then when your roles

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Speaker 1: shift and you include motherhood and you know, being a partner,

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Speaker 1: you really a lot of people start to question themselves.

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Speaker 1: I know I did when I was I went from

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Speaker 1: research or leader to wife, mother, then single parent, divorce.

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Speaker 3: It just it questions. You question yourself.

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Speaker 1: And I think that, at least for me, I let

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Speaker 1: my self worth get so tied to who I was

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Speaker 1: to others that I forgot who I was. I forgot

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Speaker 1: that I was silly, that I was creative, that you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't like to work all the time. But over time,

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Speaker 1: if you're so accustomed to being, you know, a human

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Speaker 1: doing and not a human being, you lose joy. And

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of mothers, especially young mothers, new mothers,

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Speaker 1: they don't recognize the biological component of it. One of

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Speaker 1: the things we study in the lab postpartum depression. And

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Speaker 1: when I and next to my desk, I have this

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Speaker 1: brain and I show people the brain and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: your brain has this significant drop in progesterone, like in

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Speaker 1: your third trimester and then after you give birth, so

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Speaker 1: you're not supposed to feel like yourself. You're supposed to

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Speaker 1: be tired. You're supposed to be weepy, you're supposed to

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Speaker 1: be down, and you're supposed to experience an headonia. There's

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Speaker 1: nothing wrong with you. You know, two things can be true.

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Speaker 1: You're happy that you're a mother, but also you're sad

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Speaker 1: and tired, and that's okay, that's actually biological. So having

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Speaker 1: that kind of explanation is validating, because you know, people

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Speaker 1: feel guilty about not being the perfect role that they

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Speaker 1: once played.

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Speaker 2: It's validating to hear that. And I went through postpartum

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Speaker 2: depression and anxiety pretty bad with my first This was

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Speaker 2: I mean, I gave birth to ten two months before

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Speaker 2: the pandemic hit, so it's like a recipe for just

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Speaker 2: heightened anxiety and depression at the same time. While I

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Speaker 2: was going through that, I mean, I know that was

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Speaker 2: a point in your career where you are, you know,

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Speaker 2: you are becoming the America's therapist and you were on

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Speaker 2: all the big like TV shows and being quoted. And

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Speaker 2: that was also the point right around that time when

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Speaker 2: you know you're giving a talk and you're realizing, wait,

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about depression and I actually might be tiny

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Speaker 2: bit baby depressed. So the parallel is interesting. But what

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Speaker 2: I was gonna say is validating it and saying like, oh,

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Speaker 2: you're supposed to feel this way. I hear that often,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes in my negative and my really negative thought spirals,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, fuck that. I don't want to feel this way.

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Speaker 2: It's annoying. I don't want to hear that you're supposed

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Speaker 2: to feel this way. I want to change it. I

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Speaker 2: want to fix it. You know, I'm looking for anything

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Speaker 2: that will make me not feel this way. And can

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Speaker 2: we talk about that. I know that in part of

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Speaker 2: my journey has been to ride those waves of feelings

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Speaker 2: and like just feel them, even if they're painful. But

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Speaker 2: there is that like what is it about? Like is

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Speaker 2: it an American thing? Like a New York thing? Like

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Speaker 2: I just want to run away from whatever doesn't feel

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Speaker 2: good and normal and social media nice.

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Speaker 1: You know, well, if you're accustomed to coping by doing,

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Speaker 1: and you're a pathologically productive person, sitting still and sitting

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Speaker 1: in your emotions and accepting it without judgment is very scary.

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Speaker 1: You know, our brains get so accustomed to the familiar.

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Speaker 1: And again, a lot of folks who identify with HFD,

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Speaker 1: they'll you know, when I say are.

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Speaker 3: You a human being or a human doing? They get it.

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Speaker 3: They're like, oh, I'm the doing, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so it is uncomfortable to not do. It is

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Speaker 1: uncomfortable to just feel, and it may feel like you're

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Speaker 1: a failure. It may feel you may feel like you're guilty,

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Speaker 1: that you're going to burden others. If you talk about it,

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Speaker 1: you got to go through those emotions. The only way

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Speaker 1: to combat this is to start feeling again. And I

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Speaker 1: often say if your coping mechanism is to push down

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Speaker 1: the pain, push down the discomfort, then you're also likely

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Speaker 1: pushing down the ability to feel the joy too. So

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Speaker 1: then you become numb and you experience something called anaedonia,

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Speaker 1: which people have never heard of, but it literally means

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Speaker 1: like lacking joy, lacking pleasure, lacking that feeling.

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Speaker 3: So they feel numb, they feel meh, they feel bluh.

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Speaker 1: And when I talk about this, people are like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my gosh, there's a term for that. I just thought

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Speaker 1: that was life. But no, we're built with the DNA

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Speaker 1: for joy. We're supposed to experience it. It's our birthright. So

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Speaker 1: if you're not feeling that joy, then know that that's

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Speaker 1: not how you're supposed to feel that there's something you

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Speaker 1: could do about it.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about what we can do about it. I've

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Speaker 2: definitely felt on Hadnia, and in my mind it's just

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Speaker 2: like she's like a Russian model or something like and

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Speaker 2: I just like that bitch on Hadnia is back again.

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Speaker 2: But there's things that we can do to reclaim that joy.

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Speaker 2: You break it down in the book for anyone who's

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Speaker 2: listening and feels like they're at the the bottom of

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Speaker 2: that pit and they're just like, I don't even know

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Speaker 2: when did I last feel happy or what actually can

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Speaker 2: bring me joy other than a fat check? Because we

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Speaker 2: love that. Can you talk about some ways we can

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Speaker 2: start to reclaim that joy.

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Speaker 1: Well, when people come to my lab, I explained that

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Speaker 1: there's happiness and then there's joy.

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Speaker 2: Okay, there's a bit, there's a difference.

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Speaker 3: There's a difference.

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Speaker 1: So often I have this lab and then I have

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Speaker 1: a practice where I see patients for therapy. I've had

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Speaker 1: my patients for years, some of them have grown up

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Speaker 1: with me, but whenever a new patient comes, they'll say

433
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,640
Speaker 1: things like, doctor Judus, I just want to be happy.

434
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,720
Speaker 1: So I'll ask them, well, what does happiness mean to you?

435
00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 1: And it's often something on the outside, something like when

436
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,119
Speaker 1: I finally pay off my debt, when I finally you know,

437
00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: have meet the love of my life, or I finally

438
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,160
Speaker 1: get the family or the big job. It's always something external.

439
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 1: But what the science shows us is that when you

440
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 1: have that idea of waiting for something big to happen

441
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,439
Speaker 1: and then you're happy, you're still unhappy even when that

442
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: thing happens. So that kind of delayed happiness model does

443
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:54,480
Speaker 1: not work versus joy, which is not external, it's internal.

444
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 1: It's something that you learn how to cultivate to harness

445
00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 1: from within. Joy is that internally experience that we all

446
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 1: have the capacity for because all humans have that you know,

447
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,800
Speaker 1: built in DNA for joy. So when we research whether

448
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,280
Speaker 1: or not people are becoming happier, we'll ask about points

449
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: of joy. So we'll ask people when you had your

450
00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 1: lunch today, did you savor? Was it yummy? When you

451
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: took a nap? Have lunch today right?

452
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 3: Or for HFD folks, did you even eat today?

453
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 2: Were you hungry?

454
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,679
Speaker 1: Yeah? And like you know, when you were lonely and

455
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 1: you reached out to someone, did you feel connected?

456
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 3: Do you feel seen?

457
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,120
Speaker 1: When you were tired and you took a nap, did

458
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: you wake up feeling refreshed? Those are all like the

459
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: little points of joy, and we add those up and

460
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: then we see whether or not people are becoming happier

461
00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: based on those points of joy. So the problem is

462
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: that a lot of people are holding their breath for

463
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,679
Speaker 1: this idea of happy, like these external things to happen,

464
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 1: but they're missing out on the internal points of joy. So,

465
00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 1: for example, I saw a patient the other day and

466
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: she is going through a postpartum period, right, And so

467
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 1: she kept on like saying, Okay, when I finally finished

468
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: and I go back to work, then I'll feel like

469
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,560
Speaker 1: myself again. Right, got back to work, doesn't feel like

470
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: herself again. Right, So we started to reach share.

471
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:13,240
Speaker 3: Just letting it out.

472
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: She's gone forever in a new version.

473
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,160
Speaker 1: Right, But she's waiting for this big thing, this big

474
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 1: moment of like, you know, I'll get back to myself

475
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,560
Speaker 1: and all that stuff, and it wasn't happening. So we

476
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,479
Speaker 1: started to work on these points of joy. So when

477
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: you're with your child, rather than being worried about this

478
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 1: meeting that you have tomorrow and not getting sleep because

479
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: the baby cries all night, let's focus on that point

480
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 1: of joy where you're looking at your child and you're

481
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 1: in the moment and you're really connecting with them. Right,

482
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: that's the point that you're getting that you wouldn't have

483
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: gotten it if you were so if you were really focused.

484
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 3: On the future stuff. Right.

485
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: The other thing is like when you're eating your meal

486
00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: at work, close the computer. You don't have to shove

487
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: it in while you're in between zooms like take out

488
00:23:57,040 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: like ten minutes and eat like a human being.

489
00:23:58,960 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 2: Right.

490
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: All of these little shifts really helped her. Did it

491
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: cure her sadness? No, But she's getting closer and she's

492
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: thinking differently. She's thinking, I'm getting a point here, I'm

493
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: getting a point closer, and that gives her a hope

494
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 1: versus everything has to be nicely buttoned up and perfect

495
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: for me to be happy.

496
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 2: Oh interesting, So like literally tracking points of joy, like

497
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 2: a point, like.

498
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 3: A little hashmark, like gamifying it.

499
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, sometimes I do think my kids are like a

500
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,640
Speaker 2: cheat code for joy. I don't know, And I wonder like, oh,

501
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 2: is there a problem with me just sucking so much

502
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: joy out of them? Like because you know, in the morning,

503
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 2: little dance party, I mean, yesterday, my point of joy

504
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,560
Speaker 2: was that I sent my son to a camp. Winter

505
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: break is this week and he doesn't go to school,

506
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 2: and he's so shy and he just wants to be

507
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: at home. But he walked into the camp like the

508
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: building and just said my mom, and there was no fighting,

509
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 2: there was no crying, and I was like, oh my god,

510
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 2: this is a real big win for me. And the

511
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 2: rest of the day was like very meh. But you know,

512
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,440
Speaker 2: I texted a friend and there's a lot of stressful

513
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: things happening. But I was like, but here's my I

514
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: didn't say point of joy, but here's my like wind

515
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,960
Speaker 2: for the day. How many points does one need to

516
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: like be joyful? And like, you know, is it a

517
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: is there a magic number? I feel like you're going

518
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: to say no, how long?

519
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 1: Well, technically, in the research, we do have these cutoffs

520
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,959
Speaker 1: for when we what we consider based on like the

521
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: general population. But what I say for my individuals that

522
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: I work with, I'll say, rather than focusing, because again

523
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 1: you're focusing on the goal that end point, let's focus

524
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: on the present. You know, did you get a point

525
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,359
Speaker 1: today that you didn't get yesterday? Did you you know

526
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,919
Speaker 1: when you walk through the park or you walked instead

527
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: of taking a uber you walked a little bit. Did

528
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: you get a point of satisfaction from that movement? You know,

529
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 1: think about it that way versus Okay, I have to

530
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 1: get to this number of points because when we think

531
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 1: about goals, we're again shifting from joy the internal experience

532
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: to happiness to external.

533
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 2: Pathologically, productivity. Is me trying to come up with the

534
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: point system. Okay, it's like, you know, getting points for

535
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: a reward at your favorite coffee shop. No, not like that, Okay,

536
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 2: fair enough. I you know the five v's that you

537
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 2: talk about. There's vitals, there's values. This is really stressful

538
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: because now I've started to do them, I have to

539
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:20,639
Speaker 2: get them all. What are what are the five v's?

540
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 2: You tell me?

541
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: There's validation, validation, okay, venting, values, vitals, and then vision.

542
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,320
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah. Yeah. This year was a big one for

543
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: vitals for me because sleep became an issue. I didn't

544
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,239
Speaker 2: know I had sleep apnea, and as soon as I

545
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 2: got my diagnosis and got my yeah, I gotta wear

546
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: that whole thing. It's the thing, the CPAP. It made

547
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: the other v's a lot more attainable. And because I

548
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 2: was struggling with that I mean, I mean it. When

549
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 2: your book came out, I was like, this is my

550
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 2: best friend. Now I'm going to go through this, and

551
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 2: vitals was the one that I was like, you know,

552
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: sleep was a big one. It's an obvious one, and

553
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: I just wasn't able to get it. It felt like

554
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,920
Speaker 2: I was going through the first three months of having

555
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 2: a newborn again, like the lack of sleep, and I

556
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 2: had to give myself a break for the other things

557
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 2: in my life, you know that I wanted to improve

558
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 2: because I felt like until I got the sleep under control,

559
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 2: it wasn't going to like I wasn't going to be

560
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: in a situation or like a headspace that I could

561
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: make the best choices. Oh yeah for the other ones.

562
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 2: So it's not I mean, can you talk about like

563
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: the time it can take to sort of tackle each

564
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 2: of these vs in the framework and it may not

565
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: be you know, all in one night.

566
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

567
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: Well, you know it sounds like you understand the science

568
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: of your happiness, right, So you talking about well, you know,

569
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: there's only one you and there will only ever be

570
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: one you. And I always say that because think about

571
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: the chances of you even existing. The fact that like

572
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: you exist is so rare. I don't even know what

573
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: the number is. It's so small. So you're here for

574
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: a reason. So everyone should take the time to understand,

575
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: you know, what is the science of your happiness? And

576
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,359
Speaker 1: when I say that, you know, how can you become

577
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 1: happy if you don't know what's making you unhappy? So

578
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: try to understand where you're losing your points of joy

579
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,840
Speaker 1: every day, so then you could be strategic about adding

580
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: it back. And so for you, it sounds like you

581
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,479
Speaker 1: understood that, okay, sleep was really something that was draining

582
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 1: all of the other parts of my happiness of my life.

583
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 1: And there's a diagram in my book called the biopsychosocial

584
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: It sounds super complex, but it's actually quite simple, and

585
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: it's imagine like three circles like a Venn diagram overlapping.

586
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 1: And we'll use you as an example because you offered sleep,

587
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 1: so biologically, you know, for you, sleep was a problem,

588
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: and you know you had to get to the bottom

589
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: line of like what was causing the sleep issue. It's

590
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: sleep abnea, which is something that you needed to address

591
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,440
Speaker 1: with your doctor, right, But other people could have other

592
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: biological things going on. Some people listening could be in

593
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: perimenopause or menopause and their hormones are the things that

594
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: are causing a lot of physical discomfort. But the other

595
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: part of that biopsychosocial is the psychopart So psycho is

596
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: the psychological factors. Some people may have ADHD, some people

597
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: maybe going through postpartums. Some people have trauma. Others have

598
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: attachment styles. Maybe they're attaching to the wrong person. Understand

599
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: where you're losing your points of joy psychologically, maybe that's

600
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 1: where you're draining yourself or you're being drained the most.

601
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: And then socially, what's happening in your life. This is

602
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: the external stuff like your job, the relationships you're in,

603
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: your habits, like what are you eating or is it

604
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: highly processed and sugary?

605
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,840
Speaker 3: Is it healthy and nutritious? How much are you moving?

606
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: Are you drinking too much or using too much substances?

607
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 1: All those are social factors. So for some people, biologically

608
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 1: they're okay, psychologically they're okay, but socially maybe their jobs

609
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: are just really toxic or their relationships are toxic. So

610
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: understand the science of your happiness. Where are you losing

611
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: the majority of your points of joy? Then be strategic

612
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: right rather than trying to do everything at once. Where

613
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: are you losing the most? That's where you need to

614
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: be focusing. And I put that in the book because

615
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: we're taught this in medical school. Every medical student out

616
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 1: there knows the biopsychosocial I thought, why don't patients know it?

617
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: Why don't Why doesn't everyone understand it? Because then they

618
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: see that happiness isn't just through one route. You can

619
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 1: get your points through different routes, and you can prioritize

620
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: which route is going to give you the most bang

621
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: for your buck.

622
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, as you're saying that, I'm thinking about like in

623
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: our day to day lives, when you encounter like medical

624
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: professionals like your PCP, your primary care, like, you don't

625
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 2: often get treated with that biopsychosocial lens. You know, I'll

626
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 2: get my blood work done and it's like, oh, there's

627
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 2: a little bit of inflammation here, let's talk about like

628
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: diet and exercise. But sleep was really the biggest contributor

629
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 2: to my inflammation. And once I got it under control,

630
00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 2: like the blood work started to help, it wasn't. It

631
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: was like on me to piece together my therapist feedback,

632
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: my primary care feedback, like my psychiatrist feedback can sort

633
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 2: of be like, I think this could be contributing, and

634
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: then there was you know, they were validating to be like,

635
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: oh yeah, that could be it is that just you know,

636
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 2: is that just like the symptom of how the medical

637
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 2: field is, like it's so like what's the word like siloed.

638
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 3: It's siloed.

639
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, it's up to the patient to do the

640
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,600
Speaker 1: detective work because when you think of how it's set up,

641
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: if your primary care doctor has fifteen minutes with you, right,

642
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,719
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes of that is charting, is checking like your

643
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: vitals is reviewing your old chart. That's not a lot

644
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 1: of time. And like you're ob you see them maybe

645
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 1: once or twice a year. So all of these people,

646
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: your therapists, you see a lot. But most people have

647
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: a therapist who's not a medical professional. They're more on

648
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: the psychology part. They're either a licensed clinical social worker

649
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: or a psychologist. They don't have a psychiatrist, you know,

650
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: who does a bit of both the medicine and the therapy.

651
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: So unfortunately it is up to the person to be

652
00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 1: the advocate to know their science. And I think there's

653
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:02,959
Speaker 1: power in that, but there's also a lot of downside

654
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: because you have a lot of people self diagnosing, you know,

655
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: but then you also have people saying, I think this

656
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: is what I have I read about it, and I

657
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: think you're wrong. So a lot of people are challenging

658
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: the healthcare system, which I think is a good thing

659
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: because you're learning your science and likely getting answers versus

660
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: getting a misdiagnosis. Had you not recognized the sleep issue,

661
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 1: you wouldn't have gotten better. You know, like sleep impacts ADHD,

662
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,520
Speaker 1: it impacts depression, it impacts your psycho part right everything,

663
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 1: it impacts social right, you don't want to get up

664
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: and do things you're probably less motivated to, like play

665
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: with your kids, or like travel and so forth. So

666
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: knowing that and advocating for yourself allowed you to get

667
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: the proper diagnosis and to get better the right treatment.

668
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've noticed, like I had a deep, deep, like

669
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: sort of depression this past summer. I hadn't gotten my

670
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: seapap yet and I fell into a bit of a

671
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 2: depression like a couple of weeks ago. But because I

672
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 2: was able to get my seven eight hours, I could

673
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 2: ride it so much better. I could like access the

674
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,440
Speaker 2: parts of my brain that knows okay, DBT group and

675
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 2: get your workbook and let's do some journaling and let's move.

676
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: And that just all that rationality of being able to

677
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: do the most simple things. Have a nice meal for

678
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: yourself even if you don't feel good, like just can't

679
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 2: access it when your brain is going on no sleep,

680
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 2: no oxygen.

681
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, sleep is I think the most underrated thing.

682
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: If you don't sleep while you're going to get sick

683
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 1: because your immune system is not recuperating.

684
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: If you don't sleep.

685
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: While, you know, over time, you have a higher risk

686
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 1: of dementia because sleep allows your brain to clean out

687
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,720
Speaker 1: all those like plaques and tangles that build up. That's

688
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 1: what's you know, thought to be the root biological correlation

689
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: with dementia. You know, if you don't sleep while you're

690
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: going to be snapping at your kids because your mood

691
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: is just regulated, because you need sleep to regulate your

692
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: mood and to be able to access those tools. So

693
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: sleep is like really important, but it's a lot. It's

694
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: one thing that people with HFD neglect, right because they're

695
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 1: humans doing, not humans being. So I prioritize sleep now

696
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: more than ever. I remember a couple of years ago,

697
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 1: I used to be like, oh, I only got five hours,

698
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: and now I'm like, uh huh, yeah, I have to

699
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: get my full eight hours, especially now that like I'm

700
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 1: in perimenopause.

701
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 3: When you need that sleep, you need to be able

702
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 3: to like refresh yourself.

703
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 2: Oh, Perry, my TikTok has been leaning my social my

704
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 2: algorithms have been leading me into the pery convo. I'm

705
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,400
Speaker 2: thirty eight. I hear that that's about like when you

706
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: should start thinking about it. Okay, so let's talk about it.

707
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 2: What is that? Is it more hormone bullshit? Because I

708
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,360
Speaker 2: am so sick of hormones at this point. They're always

709
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 2: coming for us. Yes, they're up there, down whatever it is,

710
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 2: they're effing up our day. So like, tell me what

711
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 2: I need to know, what to start expecting or noticing.

712
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: Well, you know, unfortunately, there's not a lot of research

713
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: because women were not included into clinical resource course right until.

714
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: Your lap you have to everything like the one.

715
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: We actively enroll women. But there was a time when

716
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: women were not included in clinical research. So a lot

717
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 1: of the science was geared or is geared towards men.

718
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: But what we're learning is that women of color in particular,

719
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 1: go into perimenopause menopause sooner than other groups, for longer

720
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 1: and with more severe symptoms. Yet they're the group that's

721
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: less likely the least likely to get the right support.

722
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 3: Right.

723
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: So that's why we do need social media. We need

724
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: platforms like yours to educate because most doctors only get

725
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,879
Speaker 1: one course in perimenopause and menopause, and most of them

726
00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,319
Speaker 1: have no idea with what the symptoms are when it's

727
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 1: right in front of them, like, they'll diagnose you as

728
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: having ADHD in midlife when you never had ADHD in childhood, right,

729
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: which is a problem because ADHD by definition, is a

730
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: childhood condition. It has to start before the age of twelve.

731
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: So if you're forgetful in your middle life, you're in

732
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:02,440
Speaker 1: your late thirties early forties and you're like, oh, I

733
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: can't remember what I was doing or I'm losing things,

734
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: check your hormones. The other thing is if you're having

735
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,040
Speaker 1: moodiness and you've never had a depression in your past,

736
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:13,959
Speaker 1: but all of a sudden everything.

737
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,239
Speaker 3: Irritates you, check your hormones.

738
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: You know, if you're having sleep issues in midlife and

739
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 1: you used to sleep well, you know, check your hormones.

740
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: That's why a lot.

741
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,399
Speaker 1: Of it is related to our hormones, but a lot

742
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: of the science doesn't have answers for us because we

743
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 1: were never really studied.

744
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: Okaba faan, I'm going to be right back with more

745
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:42,439
Speaker 2: of my conversation with doctor Judith Joseph stick around. What's

746
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: actually the need for perimenopause. It's a little pathway to menopause.

747
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 2: So is it like your body is I don't know,

748
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,760
Speaker 2: your reproductive years are sort of starting to wane, and

749
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 2: I don't know your body is like shriveling up. What's happening?

750
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,040
Speaker 3: What oparies are getting ready to no longer ovulate and

751
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,919
Speaker 3: you stop ovulating and you stop having your period, And

752
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 3: that part sounds.

753
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: Great to me, but it causes a lot of issues.

754
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: It does unfortunately many people. But when you've stopped having

755
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,399
Speaker 1: a period for at least a year, once that year

756
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: has gone, then you're in menopause. But leading up to

757
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: the ovaries no longer ovulating, there's a lot of hormonal fluctuations,

758
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: so things you know, because your hormones are going up

759
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,280
Speaker 1: and down, progesterone and estrone are having so many changes,

760
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: you have these symptoms.

761
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:31,800
Speaker 3: As a result.

762
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: So some people will have things like dry skin or

763
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,840
Speaker 1: like itchy ears, or they'll start to notice things that

764
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 1: they never had before, like joint stiffness.

765
00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 3: Right, and they think, oh, I'm just getting.

766
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,200
Speaker 1: Old, but it's like, oh, actually it's part of like

767
00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,440
Speaker 1: metopause or popse.

768
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 2: My hip work throbbed me. I'm like, what I did,

769
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: play a little dodgeball with my kids. I probably shouldn't have, okay, or.

770
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: Hair changes hair like your hair thinning or getting breakouts

771
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,479
Speaker 1: when you didn't have haven't had breakouts in theirs?

772
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:02,479
Speaker 3: Chin hairs?

773
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 2: Yeah?

774
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 3: So have those? They do good thing.

775
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 2: Group around. You can get a really cheap electric are.

776
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: Avval laser doesn't work once your hear it starts to

777
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: turn gray.

778
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 3: I'm like, yeah, you gotta do it.

779
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 2: I have not the pleasure of my first gray chin hair.

780
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: Yet I get a little some you know in the mix.

781
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 2: Now I have highlights, a little shade.

782
00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: I unfortunately, I have had grays since I was sixteen,

783
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: So wow.

784
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's like why you're so wide, I guess. So

785
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 2: is there hormone therapy for people going through perimenopause or like,

786
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,120
Speaker 2: what is there something to treat or is it just

787
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 2: more to be aware of it and give yourself some grace.

788
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: For some people, they will need treatment, right. So that's

789
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: why it has to be a conversation with your healthcare professional.

790
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: Because some people maybe have like a family history or

791
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,720
Speaker 1: more biologically prone to have severe symptoms, and in that case,

792
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 1: hormones may be, you know, helpful, But in other people,

793
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 1: you know, it's things like making sure that you're eating

794
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 1: foods are not too high in inflammation because that can

795
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: worsen a lot of symptoms, especially the mental health symptoms.

796
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: Making sure that you're eating the right foods you know

797
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: you can't. I remember it in my early twenties.

798
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 3: It was like salads and smoothies. Now it's like fiber noo.

799
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 2: I went to the coffee shop this week. It was

800
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: like protein latte, protein this. I'm like, I just got

801
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 2: a love regular coffee with like non dairy milk, like

802
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: almond milk. Used to be the big like oh my god,

803
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: you know you're so high maintenance. Yes, all these things.

804
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 1: Not drinking as much too, Like now if I have

805
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 1: a glass of wine, I'll pay for it the next

806
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,479
Speaker 1: day because I'll be like, uh, but you know, making

807
00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 1: sure that you're taking care of yourself in terms of sleep,

808
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: getting more sleep, rich sleep. A lot of these things

809
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,800
Speaker 1: are important in terms of lifestyle. Things you can control,

810
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: like not being around toxic people. I have cut people out,

811
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 1: you know, limit them. I'm from the Caribbean. We don't

812
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 1: cut you out completely, but we limit you. You stand from

813
00:39:58,360 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: a distance, you.

814
00:39:58,960 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 2: Know we're here a little your care Oh is your family?

815
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 2: Where are you from?

816
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: Trinidad?

817
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: Trinidad? Okay? So is it about boundaries and like setting

818
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:12,479
Speaker 2: those stronger boundaries? I think naturally, whether it's you know,

819
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 2: actually you know, creating those boundaries and cutting toxic people out.

820
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: I think we just all get better at that in

821
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 2: our thirties and forties. Also, life kind of makes it happen.

822
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 2: People get busier and family stuff gets more complex. But

823
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 2: also I hear, you know, especially when I in the

824
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 2: past few years, I've heard more and I do a

825
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 2: lot of career coaching as well, this sense of loneliness

826
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: and kind of like isolation. So like, what is that

827
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 2: balance between you know, creating these boundaries and you know,

828
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 2: keeping certain people out of your life and getting to

829
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: a place where like, oh I actually do need like

830
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 2: some social interaction. I know it's quality over quantity. But

831
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 2: I guess what I'm asking is, how do we like

832
00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 2: cultivate healthier, maybe newer relationships at this stage and how

833
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 2: important is that to our like mental health?

834
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:02,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely you could.

835
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: You could be in a room full of people with

836
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: like ten friends and still be lonely. Right, So I

837
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: think it's about having the right people in your life.

838
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: And I just had this conversation the other day with

839
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: someone where at one point in my life, I had

840
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: so many people around, so many friends, but I didn't

841
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: feel as if anyone knew what was going on at home.

842
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,920
Speaker 1: No one knew, no one knew that I was struggling.

843
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 1: They just thought everything was great. But when I was

844
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 1: very careful about keeping people in my life who actually

845
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 1: make me better, you know, like my partner now makes

846
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: me a better mother because I see the way he

847
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: cares for his.

848
00:41:37,960 --> 00:41:39,359
Speaker 3: Kids, and I'm like, I need to be a little

849
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 3: bit more patient with my daughter. And I'm a child

850
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 3: to catch as that's you know better.

851
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 1: But like have my you know, the siblings in my

852
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 1: life who will keep it real, like if I'm wrong,

853
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: you're wrong and strong, right, I have the friendships that

854
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: are there that are not jealous, that just love me

855
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 1: for me, don't care about everything else, and I have

856
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 1: a smaller circle like my team. But I'm not feeling alone.

857
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,920
Speaker 1: I'm not feeling lonely, and I have less people than

858
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,399
Speaker 1: I did five years ago. You know, So I think

859
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 1: it's about, you know, making sure that you're around people

860
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 1: who have the same values as you. Because you can

861
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,160
Speaker 1: be with people who all value like getting ahead and

862
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: like being in the who's who's, but then they don't

863
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:25,880
Speaker 1: have your back. You know they're not going to be

864
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: there when you're really struggling because they're so motivated to

865
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: get to the top. And so aligning yourself with the

866
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 1: people who have similar values. I talk about this heavily

867
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: in my book. You will never feel alone.

868
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:37,480
Speaker 2: You know.

869
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: If you have one or two people who have the

870
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: same mission, you know you won't feel alone. But when

871
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: you're around these groups, these crowds with values that don't

872
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:51,800
Speaker 1: align with yours, you may feel the loneliness you've ever felt.

873
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: But you're in a room full of people. You have

874
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: like a list of names, You have a lot of followers,

875
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 1: but you are alone.

876
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 2: Oh, don't talk about follow I know part of the VS.

877
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: Which VI is it that touches on social media and

878
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 2: like vitals. Oh, it's part of vitals. Okay, Yeah, I

879
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 2: think it's really difficult, and I think my experience is

880
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 2: skewed because a lot of my friends also are in

881
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: podcasting or like social media personalities or influencers or creators

882
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: of some kind, or they're doing a very real job

883
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 2: like psychiatry, and they also have a social media platform.

884
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: And I know that we're all talking about it in

885
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 2: the struggle to like not let it seep in in

886
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 2: like a negative way. And I know that you have

887
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 2: developed some sort of like what is it, like a

888
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: tool or like a rule that you follow? Can you

889
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,520
Speaker 2: talk about that for social media so it doesn't become

890
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 2: like toxic to you.

891
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,279
Speaker 1: We're actually studying that in our lab. There aren't a

892
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 1: lot of mental health resources for creators. But when you

893
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: pull gen Z, I think the number is like fifty

894
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: seven percent of people in gen Z want to be

895
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 1: a content creator, and the numbers higher for Jen Alpha, right,

896
00:44:03,239 --> 00:44:05,399
Speaker 1: so like my six year olds, yes.

897
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: He's like I want to be a YouTube Like, oh god, no,

898
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:09,760
Speaker 2: what have I done? I failed?

899
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, the younger ones Jen Alfa, I think

900
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 1: the number is like approaching like eighty percent, Like nobody

901
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: wants to be a doctor or lawyer anymore.

902
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 3: They want to be got.

903
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 2: I've got to introduce them to more doctors or something.

904
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 2: I don't know.

905
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 1: Well, the doctors are our influencers too, so this is true.

906
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 2: We all got to be out here shilling on these

907
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 2: social media streets.

908
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 1: I really believe that it's going to be either a

909
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: main career or a side career or part of like

910
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: the main career for most people one day. But the

911
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: numbers don't lie. But yet there are no mental health

912
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: resources or a standard of care for content creators. So

913
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: I wanted to make something for again people like me.

914
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: It's a little selfish because I create like high function

915
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 1: depression that heal people like me, but also that I

916
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: was experiencing some burnout too, And so I developed the

917
00:44:54,719 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: Reset method about two years ago, and children and adults

918
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: can use. It's very simple. The rs realize, how is

919
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: this impacting your life? How is being on the screen

920
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 1: impact in your life? You know, like for many of us,

921
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: we're looking at ourselves all day long, and it's creating

922
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 1: something called the autoscopic phenomenon where in mental health that

923
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: what that means is some people with some psychiatric conditions,

924
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 1: they'll hallucinate, they'll see themselves across the room, and they'll

925
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: freak out and they'll have breakdowns. Right because it's very

926
00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: a nerving like if you've ever walked into a room

927
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: with a mirror and you're like, oh, you got scared,

928
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,160
Speaker 1: because we're not designed to see ourselves that much. But

929
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: what we're doing is we're creating this false autoscopic phenomenon

930
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: where we're seeing our faces all the time and it's

931
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 1: creating a lot of distress. So realize how being on

932
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 1: screens is impacting for some of us. We're not getting

933
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: the sleep we need. For those of us who are neurodiversent,

934
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 1: we're not focusing the way we need to because we

935
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 1: already have challenges in place, but then being on screen

936
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: is making it even more difficult. So the R is

937
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: the realization what's happening, make a list. The E is

938
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: educate yourself. Try to learn the studies the data out

939
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: there that shows that these screens are harming you or

940
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 1: are they helping you. Are they making you feel more connected,

941
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 1: or are they causing you to be less productive, get

942
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 1: less sleep. There's a lot of education out there and

943
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,720
Speaker 1: resources about children, but the stuff about adults. Very small data,

944
00:46:18,760 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 1: so we're only starting to understand that. There's a recent

945
00:46:21,960 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: study out of the University of Texas school where they

946
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 1: took adults and they removed the smartphone capacity from their

947
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: phone and so they only had like a flip phone

948
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 1: for like a month, and what they found was that

949
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:35,879
Speaker 1: their happiness scores went up as if they were being

950
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:38,919
Speaker 1: given an antidepressant. So the researchers were like, what's going

951
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: on here right? What they found out when they interviewed them,

952
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,479
Speaker 1: it's sucking our joy. So what they found was that

953
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,239
Speaker 1: the people who were on these like flip phones, they

954
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: were now walking more, they were getting more exercise, they

955
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 1: were more in nature more, they were actually having conversations

956
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: with each other, they were getting better sleep. I remember

957
00:46:57,239 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: those points of joy talked about that we add up

958
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: in the research. They we're getting more of those, So

959
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: you know, try to educate yourself. Now the research is

960
00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: coming out monthly, and then the S and reset is

961
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: have a strategy. So what are you going to do

962
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: as a family. Are you going to be off your

963
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: devices after seven? Is everyone off devices after nine so

964
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: that their inner melatonin gets resets, they get reached sleep.

965
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: Are you only going to follow certain accounts that make

966
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 1: you feel good and unfollows that make you feel bad?

967
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:25,960
Speaker 2: Right?

968
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:27,399
Speaker 1: Are you only going to be on the phone at

969
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 1: certain times of the day? Like have a plan? The

970
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:33,719
Speaker 1: next e is expectation? So what are you hoping to

971
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: get out of this? Are you hoping to feel better?

972
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: Are you hoping to feel more focused? Are you hoping

973
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:38,920
Speaker 1: to get better sleep? Are you hoping to feel more connected?

974
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: And then the T is thoughtfulness? Did your plan work?

975
00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: So that's a reflection on it, like, Okay, was it

976
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 1: too rigid and I couldn't stick to it? Or was

977
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 1: it to relax and it didn't really help?

978
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: Right?

979
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 3: So the reset really helps.

980
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: Content creators, but it can also help kids who are

981
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: stuck on their devices and can help you busy working people.

982
00:47:58,200 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 3: Who are on Zoom all day.

983
00:47:59,560 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 2: Right.

984
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 1: There's a whole center called the Stanford Zoom Fatigue Center

985
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: where they study the impacts of being on virtual meetings

986
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: and how harmful it is. So you know there are

987
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 1: resources out there, but most people don't know about it

988
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 1: because it's so new.

989
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: You got to find that part on Zoom that lets

990
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 2: you hide yourself the image. When I found that, I

991
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 2: was like, oh, I can do this. This is why

992
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,000
Speaker 2: I like being in person with you too, because on

993
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: a screen, I could like kind of see myself out

994
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: of the corner of my eye. Now I don't know

995
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 2: what my bangs are doing, and if they're frizzy, it's like,

996
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: not my business.

997
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 1: You know. We weren't designed to look at ten people

998
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: at one time on a screen.

999
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 3: We're constantly performing.

1000
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: And the Stanford Zoom Fatigue Center found that when people

1001
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 1: have to be on camera, they notice that they're like this,

1002
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: and they're like thinking about, oh, how do I look,

1003
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,440
Speaker 1: Versus if you're off camera, you're like, oh, you can talk.

1004
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: You're not like we're about performing. It's unnatural. We're not

1005
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 1: supposed to see ten people at once. We're supposed to

1006
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: talk with each other. We're supposed to be able to

1007
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: move and turn and like, you know, have natural conversations.

1008
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 1: But we're doing all these unnatural things to our brain

1009
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:00,879
Speaker 1: and we just weren't designed that way.

1010
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: Such a necessary evil in some ways, though. I mean,

1011
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:08,240
Speaker 2: I think for me, I'm moving away from like visual

1012
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 2: content like video creation, and I'm experimenting, not experimenting. I

1013
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: asked myself, when was the last time I really felt joyful,

1014
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,720
Speaker 2: like creating stuff. And I've always been a blog girly,

1015
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 2: like I'm a writer. I'm working on my first book

1016
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: right now. I need all the good first book. I'm

1017
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 2: trying so this brain. Oh it's hard, but yeah. And

1018
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 2: I wrote a blog post like just words on you know,

1019
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 2: digitally on a substack, and I was like, this is nice.

1020
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 2: It's not my face. I don't have to be like

1021
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 2: Pithy or have that like you know, cadence of TikTokers.

1022
00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: And I can just say how I feel and people

1023
00:49:43,760 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 2: can have more of a people who care to read

1024
00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: it and have thoughtful, you know comments. It's been it's

1025
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 2: been nice. And I'm like and I and I thought

1026
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 2: to myself, why don't I do this? What is it

1027
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 2: makes me feel like I need to be showing up

1028
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,320
Speaker 2: and doing day in the life and you know five

1029
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 2: five personal finance tips or whatever while putting my makeup on,

1030
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 2: Like there's there's ways that if maybe it won't lead

1031
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: to I think it goes back to what you said,

1032
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,800
Speaker 2: like expectation. What's my expectation? And maybe we can stop

1033
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 2: like putting a lot of pressure to have this many followers.

1034
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: What does that even mean? And just think about what's

1035
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: my purpose and my value. My value is connecting and

1036
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,840
Speaker 2: inspiring through words, And if I can just measure it

1037
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,720
Speaker 2: by that, then I already feel a little bit better.

1038
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 2: It's becoming a point of joy.

1039
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, you under see, you're understanding the science of your happiness,

1040
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 1: and the science of your happiness changes over time. We

1041
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: are living, breathing, organic creatures. So at one point, maybe

1042
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 1: it was being in front of a camera and creating

1043
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 1: that way. But now your joy has changed. You're but

1044
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 1: you've changed. You're like, you're now a mother, you know,

1045
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: you're now in person. A lot of your life has changed,

1046
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 1: So your joy can change over time. And I think

1047
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: that understanding what connects you and what brings you closer

1048
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: to your values, and following that joy and not denying it,

1049
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,680
Speaker 1: not changing it, you bloom.

1050
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 3: At least I did. I noticed that when I started.

1051
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: To actually follow the joy, all of those fars they

1052
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: crept in. Oh, that's not going to make you successful.

1053
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,439
Speaker 1: People are going to say this, you know, like they're

1054
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: gonna say this about you. They're gonna judge, You're gonna

1055
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 1: lose your credibility. But had I listened to that, I

1056
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:31,879
Speaker 1: would have lost out on that joy.

1057
00:51:31,920 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 3: But follow the joy. Follow the joy, and you will thrive.

1058
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,960
Speaker 1: Because joyful people they do better at work, they have

1059
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: better health, they have better relationships, they're more likely to

1060
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 1: give to the world and make it a better place.

1061
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: So if you don't follow the joy, think about all

1062
00:51:46,040 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: the things you're missing out on.

1063
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, hey, ba fam, we got to take a quick break,

1064
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 2: pay some bills and we'll be right back. Can you

1065
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 2: talk a little bit more about your lab and the

1066
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 2: research that you're doing there. You mentioned psychedelics, you mentioned,

1067
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 2: like Perry, what is it postpartum research that you're doing?

1068
00:52:04,960 --> 00:52:07,440
Speaker 2: What like big picture? What is this lab that you

1069
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 2: have created and is this like what you do day

1070
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,719
Speaker 2: to day? You're doing this research and the hope of

1071
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 2: just helping us tap more into like the joy of life.

1072
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:15,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1073
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting when people meet me, they think that,

1074
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: like all I do is create content all day?

1075
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 2: No no, no, no no. But have you seen the letter

1076
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,760
Speaker 2: else that sweep after your name? Please, y'all doctor Judith.

1077
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: But yeah, if you passed me on the street on

1078
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: a normal day, you would not even recognize me because

1079
00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: I'm not glammed. I'm wearing scrubs and no makeup and

1080
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 1: my hair is pulled back into a type bun. But

1081
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: I have a lab where we enroll patients into double

1082
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,919
Speaker 1: blind PUSSIBO controlled studies. So what that means is that

1083
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: the patients don't know what drug they're on, and we

1084
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:49,799
Speaker 1: don't know what drugs, so like there's no bias that

1085
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: we're introducing, and then they can't introduce bias into the study.

1086
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: So at the end of the study, we don't know

1087
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: who is getting placebo, which is a sugar pillow not active,

1088
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,800
Speaker 1: and we don't know who was getting the study drug.

1089
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,759
Speaker 1: But we're treating everyone the same, So we're doing assessments

1090
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 1: for things like okay ad so we'll go through ADC checklists,

1091
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:09,319
Speaker 1: or if it's a PGSC city, we'll go through a

1092
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 1: PTSD checkless or depression postpartum And at the end of

1093
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,279
Speaker 1: the study, as set asision crunches the numbers of our

1094
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: site and all the sites around the world who are participating,

1095
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,279
Speaker 1: and then if the medication works, it's on the road

1096
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: to approval. So like when we see commercials on TV,

1097
00:53:26,080 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 1: we're like, oh, we did that study. We did that drug,

1098
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, the first postpartum depression drug in the world.

1099
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,200
Speaker 1: We were one of the sites in the country that

1100
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,759
Speaker 1: participated in that study, so we actually see things going

1101
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:41,400
Speaker 1: to market that change lives across the world. It's really gratifying.

1102
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:45,040
Speaker 1: And then I have the Happiness Lab, the Science of

1103
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: Your Happiness Lab, where I do my own creative research

1104
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: protocols that our team writes together and we carry out.

1105
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 1: So that's where we did the first study in the

1106
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:56,680
Speaker 1: world on high functioning depression. And we're working on studies

1107
00:53:56,680 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 1: now looking at gen z and happiness and then content

1108
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: creators and their happiness tools.

1109
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: That they can I'm excited for that.

1110
00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really fun because then my team gets to

1111
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,520
Speaker 1: do like the work for pharma, but then they also

1112
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 1: get to do the work that a lot of people

1113
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 1: don't study.

1114
00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 3: So we're getting the best of both worlds.

1115
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 2: We're just out here like looking at the little I

1116
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: don't know, the shadow pockets not necessarily being touched by research.

1117
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 2: I think that's just such important work. And do you

1118
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: feel I mean, it's been six years now. I think

1119
00:54:26,239 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 2: the pandemic feels like it should just be five. But

1120
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 2: it's been six years now from when you were feeling

1121
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:33,239
Speaker 2: like you were in that zoom doing that talk and

1122
00:54:33,280 --> 00:54:36,400
Speaker 2: feeling like, uh, oh, I'm I think I might be

1123
00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 2: a little depressed right now? How are you today? Like,

1124
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,719
Speaker 2: how would you compare the version of you sitting here

1125
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 2: to her six years ago?

1126
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:49,520
Speaker 1: That person is kind of hard to recognize because that

1127
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:55,440
Speaker 1: person was so joyless and just I think I look

1128
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: so put together, but I was really lost, right. I

1129
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 1: know who I I am now, And you know, when

1130
00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: I'm tired, I rest. I used to feel so guilty

1131
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: when I took a break, And it sounds so silly,

1132
00:55:09,080 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: but I just felt guilty. I was like, why am

1133
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,839
Speaker 1: Why am I not working? Now I intentionally rest. Uh.

1134
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 1: You know, when there's a holiday, I remember back then

1135
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 1: I used to like work through the holiday, and that

1136
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,879
Speaker 1: seems so like distant for me right now. Oh, I've

1137
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:28,360
Speaker 1: been there, and you know, I think now I appreciate

1138
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 1: those points, like if I can sit and watch a

1139
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 1: movie with my daughter, I'm like, wow, that's awesome. I

1140
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: like I did that, you know, we did. We watched

1141
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 1: we watched Anaconda recently because.

1142
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:45,000
Speaker 3: We saw that j and we saw the new the reboot.

1143
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I won't root it for you, but there's

1144
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:48,720
Speaker 1: some like nostalgia in the reboot.

1145
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 3: So I was like, I was like, sorry, we got

1146
00:55:50,560 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 3: to watch the original. So she watched it.

1147
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: She was like, that's Nate looks fake and I'm like,

1148
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,960
Speaker 1: but it was like fun because like we followed through right.

1149
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 2: It was like ninety eight different time all your daughter nine?

1150
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 2: Oh she's nine? Okay? Is she? I mean it adds

1151
00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:06,799
Speaker 2: a certain level of I honestly the kid My kids

1152
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 2: have inspired me to get it together because I want

1153
00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: to be a good model for them because they are

1154
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,840
Speaker 2: watching everything they do and right now it's like I

1155
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:16,919
Speaker 2: want to be a YouTuber like me, but it can

1156
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: do You find that it kind of adds a little

1157
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 2: bit of urgency to being that like together and like

1158
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:25,879
Speaker 2: getting tapping into the joy and how do you let

1159
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,960
Speaker 2: her into like the coping mechanisms that you're using and

1160
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,280
Speaker 2: like the tools that you're using to tap into that joy.

1161
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm in my own therapy, but I

1162
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,520
Speaker 1: think and I was in therapy for years and I

1163
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: never really accepted that, Okay, I have scarcy trauma and

1164
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:46,120
Speaker 1: it's driving a lot of my actions, you know. And

1165
00:56:46,120 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: scarcey trauma is when you either you personally have been

1166
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,960
Speaker 1: through having a lack of resources or maybe your parents

1167
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 1: or your grandparents, didn't it trickle down to you through

1168
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:54,800
Speaker 1: generational trauma.

1169
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: But it was.

1170
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: Always like if I stop, I'll run out. If I

1171
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: slow down someone else, we'll get it. And I didn't realize, Yeah,

1172
00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that that scarcity trauma was robbing me

1173
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 1: of my present joy. So I would do things like

1174
00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,800
Speaker 1: work till late and miss out on like really precious

1175
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: moments with my small daughter at the time. You know,

1176
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: And it's different than scarcity mindset, because mindset is just cognitive,

1177
00:57:19,440 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: it's just the way you think. Scarcely trauma it actually

1178
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,920
Speaker 1: moves every part of your being. It makes you restless,

1179
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 1: like the way that PTSDDA is where you can't slow

1180
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: down your own fight or flight, so you're never sitting still,

1181
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,800
Speaker 1: you can't sleep. It's like physiological And the moment I

1182
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: started to challenge that and to say that I can

1183
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: you know, nothing bad is going to happen if I

1184
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: take a break. That just shifted everything so I'm able

1185
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: to actually access these points of joy without this fear

1186
00:57:47,840 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: of like running out, And so what if I run out?

1187
00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: Like what's the worst thing that can happen?

1188
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 2: Nothing bad happens, And do you how do you find

1189
00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:57,200
Speaker 2: the words to like talk to you about it with

1190
00:57:57,240 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 2: your young daughter or does she not care or like

1191
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:01,680
Speaker 2: know the day to day things. Because I feel like

1192
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 2: I have one kid, I mean, he's six. The other

1193
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 2: one is really small, he's only less than less than

1194
00:58:05,880 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 2: three right now. By my six year old, I feel

1195
00:58:08,120 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 2: like I'm on high alert with him because I was

1196
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 2: such an anxious, undiagnosed, anxious, depressed kid. I went through

1197
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 2: a lot that he's not going to go through. But

1198
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,680
Speaker 2: I'm like, was that Mike a little bit of like

1199
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 2: are you comparing yourself? Are he's you know? Are you

1200
00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 2: getting too upset by losing that game with a friend?

1201
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 2: And like trying to I don't know, maybe like just

1202
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 2: be really really aware of what you know, figuring out

1203
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 2: who he is and how I can like support him,

1204
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 2: and then when it comes time to have a conversation

1205
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,480
Speaker 2: like I've I'll be I'm not gonna lie be using

1206
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 2: my little I don't use chat GPT, I use perplexity.

1207
00:58:45,400 --> 00:58:48,280
Speaker 2: But I'm like, he said this, so should I be worried?

1208
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 2: But is that okay? Like to like try to find

1209
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,440
Speaker 2: the language to like talk about the way he may

1210
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 2: be feeling and his anxiety as a young kid.

1211
00:58:58,480 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 1: Well, what I usually do is what I tell my

1212
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 1: patients to do. Like I'll say, get on the floor

1213
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 1: with your kid, your small child, because he's small, he's

1214
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 1: playing with toystom and play with them violently, but yes,

1215
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 1: but still play.

1216
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:11,919
Speaker 3: Let them take the lead.

1217
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 1: So with my daughter, she was really into lols for

1218
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: a long time. That's why some of my skits from

1219
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: like two three years ago have LOL dolls when I

1220
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 1: try to act like a little kid because she literally

1221
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: she had all the lols. But we'd sit and play

1222
00:59:23,120 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 1: with the lols and I'll let her take the lead.

1223
00:59:25,320 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 1: And then if a theme came up during the play,

1224
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: like two loo all dolls or fighting, I'll say, oh, like,

1225
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 1: I'll just go ahead and play with her and they

1226
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 1: act it out and see what happens, and then use

1227
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: that as kind of like an organic way to bring

1228
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: up these topics. So you know, with my patients who

1229
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: are parents, they have you know, small children who are

1230
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,400
Speaker 1: playing violently, I say, don't try to correct that, just

1231
00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:48,440
Speaker 1: go along with the play and see where it takes you,

1232
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:52,640
Speaker 1: and they can lead you into an organic conversation. Or

1233
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,240
Speaker 1: if you're watching something together and you're seeing a theme

1234
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 1: played out, you know, with the characters, ask them, be curious, Oh,

1235
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: why do you think that boy did that to that

1236
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,040
Speaker 1: you know, other little boy? Or what do you think

1237
01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: what's going on there? As long as you get into

1238
01:00:05,200 --> 01:00:07,680
Speaker 1: their world and it feels natural and it feels like

1239
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: you're bonding with them, you can learn a lot, and

1240
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: then you can have these conversations without feeling so stressed

1241
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 1: out or feeling.

1242
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 3: Like you have to be perfect.

1243
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's key. It's like getting at their level.

1244
01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:20,800
Speaker 2: I don't know what an LOL doll is, but I

1245
01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 2: know all about Blaize and the monster machines and like

1246
01:00:22,760 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 2: all this other boy stuff. But yeah, it's inconvenient to

1247
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 2: the pathological production person because it makes you slow down

1248
01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:33,160
Speaker 2: and it's a lot of time commitment, you know, sitting down.

1249
01:00:33,440 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: It's not just like if he's gonna be on the screen.

1250
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 2: I like to be nearby listening so I can stay

1251
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 2: in touch with what he's talking in the like, try

1252
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:42,920
Speaker 2: to talk to him. It's a commitment, though, and I

1253
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 2: think it's worthy. But I'm glad that that felt validating

1254
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: to hear that that could be something that could be beneficial. Obviously,

1255
01:00:51,240 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 2: the show is called brown ambition, right, and our audience

1256
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: is largely women of color, and I feel like the

1257
01:00:56,520 --> 01:01:00,120
Speaker 2: themes of high functioning are so universal, right, but especially

1258
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,160
Speaker 2: women of color, Like I just think that we're so

1259
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 2: much more prone to high function depression? Am I wrong?

1260
01:01:05,920 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 1: Like?

1261
01:01:06,080 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 2: Are Like why does it not seem like white dudes

1262
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 2: are out here like very successful? Whit d I don't thin.

1263
01:01:11,200 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 2: Jeff Bezos is like grappling with like, you know, anxiety

1264
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:16,920
Speaker 2: over is he doing a good job? And like what

1265
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:19,960
Speaker 2: is he doing to the you know, to journalism by

1266
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:22,240
Speaker 2: laying off people at the white Washington Post, Like it

1267
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,919
Speaker 2: just is it just uniquely our burden to to have

1268
01:01:26,040 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 2: this this like you know, this HFD, you know, plaguing

1269
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:32,800
Speaker 2: us as women of color, Like why us? I think

1270
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:33,560
Speaker 2: seems unfair.

1271
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: I think all people do experience high functioning depression. A

1272
01:01:37,720 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: lot of overachievers do. But also I think for black

1273
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 1: women in particular, we're less likely to talk about it

1274
01:01:45,480 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 1: because we're expected to perform, We're expected to push through,

1275
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 1: power through, and so I think we are prone to

1276
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:58,040
Speaker 1: high functioning depression. But clinical depression, it knows no discrimination,

1277
01:01:58,440 --> 01:02:01,400
Speaker 1: It's the most Depression is one the most common conditions

1278
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 1: but I think high functioning depression particularly impacts many women,

1279
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,040
Speaker 1: and in the study, we didn't find any difference between

1280
01:02:12,240 --> 01:02:15,560
Speaker 1: in terms of cultural demographics. I was looking for that too.

1281
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,880
Speaker 1: I was like, I wonder black women are more likely.

1282
01:02:18,080 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 1: But what we did find was that caregivers, so mothers,

1283
01:02:22,600 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 1: those who take care of their families, were more likely

1284
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:27,600
Speaker 1: to be prone to it, which makes sense because you're

1285
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:31,760
Speaker 1: so busy thinking about others that you losely forget your

1286
01:02:31,800 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 1: joy is not a priority. So we found that caregivers did.

1287
01:02:35,400 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: But we did include a lot of inventories specific to

1288
01:02:38,560 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 1: immigrants and people who are from underrepresented groups because we

1289
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,880
Speaker 1: wanted to tease out those type of traumas. We did

1290
01:02:45,960 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: find that people did not acknowledge traumas such as being

1291
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: treated differently because of.

1292
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 3: The way you look.

1293
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:53,160
Speaker 1: They were just like, well, that's just life, that's just

1294
01:02:53,200 --> 01:02:56,240
Speaker 1: being black. But we were finding all these traumas that

1295
01:02:56,400 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 1: contribute to you hiding your depression to the acknowledging it.

1296
01:03:02,240 --> 01:03:05,680
Speaker 1: It's the one study, but I'm hoping that there are more,

1297
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,640
Speaker 1: and I've gotten requests from other resourceers around the world

1298
01:03:08,640 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 1: to replicate the study because they want to know more

1299
01:03:12,160 --> 01:03:15,120
Speaker 1: about this. They're seeing it more in their patients. There's

1300
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:17,760
Speaker 1: more acknowledgment that depression doesn't just look like someone's sleeping

1301
01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 1: in bed. It looks like someone who's showing up every day,

1302
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 1: who'staking care of their family. You know, who's the rock.

1303
01:03:23,120 --> 01:03:25,800
Speaker 1: And so I think we do need more information about this.

1304
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: What I will say about Black women is that we

1305
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,960
Speaker 1: are the highest group of traumatized people. We are the

1306
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: highest rates of PTSD, We have the worst outcomes for

1307
01:03:35,240 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 1: postpartum depression. We have the highest rates of postpartum depression.

1308
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 1: So I think, you know, we are very vulnerable. We

1309
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 1: are the ones who are not getting the most resources,

1310
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 1: but we do need them the most. And so if

1311
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:51,720
Speaker 1: you're listening and this is you, you know you're worthy

1312
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 1: of joy. You're worthy of understanding the science of your happiness.

1313
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:59,479
Speaker 1: And unfortunately it does start with you, because no one's

1314
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: going to save Yes.

1315
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:02,760
Speaker 2: We have to be the ones to acknowledge it.

1316
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: We do.

1317
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 3: We have to lift each other the painful.

1318
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,320
Speaker 2: Truth to accept. First, I don't feel joy. I'm not happy.

1319
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 2: I don't feel sorry. I don't feel joyful. It's a

1320
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 2: little it's like what I had, you know, sometimes you

1321
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 2: feel like but I have these things I should I

1322
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:17,920
Speaker 2: should write, I should feel this, I should feel that,

1323
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 2: accepting it and then hopefully picking up a book like

1324
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,320
Speaker 2: High Functioning and just beginning to raise that awareness that

1325
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 2: not just that you can acknowledge that you're not feeling it.

1326
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 2: But again, I can't talk about it enough the way

1327
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 2: that your book sort of gives that framework to free

1328
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 2: claim that joy, you know, bit by bit, which is

1329
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:41,560
Speaker 2: so essential. And I'm just really grateful that, grateful you

1330
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:44,120
Speaker 2: wrote it, Grateful to be able to chat with you,

1331
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 2: really appreciate and value your time. Where can Brown Ambition family,

1332
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,320
Speaker 2: Where can we find you and support your work?

1333
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: Well, I'm grateful that you reached out and also grateful

1334
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:56,160
Speaker 1: that you took that book because it was for you.

1335
01:04:56,320 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 2: I thought it was me and not Neo. It's fine.

1336
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,120
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for having me. It was such a

1337
01:05:03,240 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 1: joy to be with you today. You can find me

1338
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 1: at doctor Judith Joseph. That's my website on socials. I'm

1339
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 1: doctor Judith Joseph and you can buy my book wherever

1340
01:05:12,360 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 1: books are sold.

1341
01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:15,440
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. All right, ba fam, you know

1342
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 2: what to do. Check the show notes, doctor Judah, thank

1343
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 2: you so much for joining me. I'm Brown Ambition, Oh,

1344
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 2: thank you so much. Fun and before I go, BA Fam,

1345
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:29,600
Speaker 2: I want to shout out the team that helps make

1346
01:05:29,640 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 2: Brown Ambition possible. Huge thanks to my fam at iHeartRadio,

1347
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 2: Katrina Norvel and Jenna Cagel, my worker Bees behind the scenes,

1348
01:05:37,840 --> 01:05:41,960
Speaker 2: booking Assistant Brittany Laier and virtual assistant Cameron McNair who

1349
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 2: keep organized, and of course my editor Courtney Dean. Thank

1350
01:05:45,960 --> 01:05:48,439
Speaker 2: y'all so much for supporting the show. If you love

1351
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:51,240
Speaker 2: Brown Ambition, share it with a friend, tag us on

1352
01:05:51,280 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 2: social and don't forget to leave a comment or review.

1353
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 2: Until next time. By BA Fam