1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. This week America the 2 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: Petro bully. In twenty twenty five, there was a growing 3 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: chorus of voices saying that the US was acting like 4 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: a petro state. In the opening days of twenty twenty six, 5 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: that has become undeniable. Over the weekend, President Donald Trump 6 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: authorized the capture and extraction of Venezuelan President Nicholas Maduro 7 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: from the country's capital, Caracas, and in the press conference 8 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 1: discussing the reasons for the action, Trump said, one of 9 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 1: America's main priorities in Venezuela was to get access to 10 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:51,840 Speaker 1: its vast oil reserves, the largest in the world. 11 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 2: We're going to have our very large United States oil companies, 12 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 2: the biggest anywhere in the world, go in, spend billions 13 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 2: of dollars, fix the badly broken infrastructure, the oil infrastructure, 14 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 2: and start making money for the country. 15 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:13,480 Speaker 1: If there was any doubt that America is doubling down 16 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: on oil, that doubt is now gone. 17 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:21,279 Speaker 2: We built Venezuela oil industry with American talent, drive, and skill, 18 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: and the socialist regime stole it from us during those 19 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: previous administrations, and they stole it through force this constituted 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 2: one of the largest thefts of American property in the 21 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 2: history of our country. 22 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: Back in November at COP thirty in Brazil, I was 23 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: able to sit down with the US Senator Sheldon Whitehouse 24 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: to ask how countries can stand up to America the Petrobulli. 25 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: White House has been the Senator of the state of 26 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: Rhode Island since two thousand and seven, and he has 27 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:56,559 Speaker 1: been an outspoken advocate for climate action. On that front, 28 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: He's been critical of both the Trump administration and Joe 29 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 1: Biden's administration before that. In this conversation, we didn't talk 30 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: about Venezuela, but you'll see how clearly he connects the 31 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: dots to explain why the US is taking these kinds 32 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: of actions. I also ask Senator white House how countries 33 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: can resist an increasingly aggressive Trump administration, why Democrats are 34 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:23,079 Speaker 1: shying away from the climate debate, and why he believes 35 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: we can't win the climate fight without carbon pricing. By 36 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 1: the way, if you have feedback for Zero or guest suggestions, 37 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: please write to Zero Pod at Bloomberg dot net. 38 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 3: Senator, welcome to the show. 39 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,120 Speaker 4: Thank you, wonderful to be with you. 40 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 3: So there are very few people with your ability to 41 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,800 Speaker 3: communicate climate issues and your experience of doing it for 42 00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 3: the length of time that you have done it. We 43 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:52,400 Speaker 3: will talk a lot about climate, but I want us 44 00:02:52,440 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 3: to start a little bit in history. If you look 45 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 3: at what the Trump administration is doing on all sorts 46 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 3: of policies domestically and abroad, not just climate, where would 47 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: you put Donald Trump in America's historical context and what 48 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 3: it's doing to the geopolitics. 49 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 4: I think he would probably consider himself a Jacksonian disruptor 50 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 4: in the great sweep of American history. I think he 51 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:29,639 Speaker 4: is actually the first great collapse into corruption of American democracy. 52 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 4: I think that the benchmark of essentially everything he does 53 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 4: is corruption. 54 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 3: And this is something that Americans, because of their history 55 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 3: of not having a corrupt government for very long, seems 56 00:03:43,480 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 3: an aberration. But for places where I come from, in 57 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 3: India or here where we are in Brazil, in developing countries, 58 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: corruption has been an issue. 59 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 4: So it also means that Americans aren't as attentive and prepared. 60 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 4: We have lived in a very happy pair of centuries 61 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 4: in which corruption really was not very significant national issue, 62 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 4: and now suddenly we're deep into corruption. 63 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: And then when it comes to climate policies itself. We've 64 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 3: seen the Trump administration have obviously attack domestic climate policies, 65 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 3: turn back the tide on the Inflation Reduction Act, go 66 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: after oil and gas drilling rights in all sorts of places, 67 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 3: including alaskam or recently, but globally, in the first Trumpet administration, 68 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 3: there hadn't been that much impact. This time around, they're 69 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:38,080 Speaker 3: way more effective. Why are they so effective. 70 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 4: This time They are more effective because the relationship between 71 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 4: them and the fossil fuel industry is now one that 72 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 4: has no boundary. The fossil fuel industry is essentially running 73 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 4: the United States government from the inside. It's a desperate industry. 74 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 4: They know that clean renewable energy is cheaper. They know 75 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 4: that they only compete by virtue of massive subsidies from 76 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 4: being allowed to pollute for free, which nobody should be 77 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 4: allowed to do. And they prop all of that up 78 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,680 Speaker 4: with enormous amounts of political corruption and leverage and a 79 00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,919 Speaker 4: huge climate denial fraud campaign. So for them to be 80 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 4: able to seize and capture the Trump administration and drive 81 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 4: their desperate agenda is essential. It's a survival thing for them. 82 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 4: So with Trump having handed them the keys, they're now 83 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 4: in survival mode and they're attacking everything that they can 84 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 4: that is a threat to the continued dominance of fossil fuel. 85 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 3: So we have seen an actor on the international stage 86 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 3: who has been very effective at being able to keep 87 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:48,040 Speaker 3: fossil fuel activities for longer, which is Saudi Arabia. They 88 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 3: train some of the best diplomats here at COBB, but 89 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 3: at many other multilateral forums. They know where to find 90 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 3: the loopholes to try and block progress. The US has 91 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 3: some very good diplomat too. If that is the level 92 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 3: of effectiveness we're going to see in year one of 93 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,480 Speaker 3: Donald Trump, there are three more years. How much damage 94 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: does that do to American credibility at the global stage, 95 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: and how do you get America back If there is 96 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,279 Speaker 3: a president who cares about climate change. 97 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 4: It could do a lot of damage. I think it 98 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 4: is important to see America pushing back against this regime 99 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 4: and its corrupt fossil fuel policies. So we get now 100 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 4: to the communications problem that you mentioned earlier. I think 101 00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 4: if America is just sitting around idly, you know, whistling 102 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 4: and looking at the ceiling while Trump does all this 103 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 4: damage and behaves really like a thug and serves his 104 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 4: big political donors in the fossil fuel industry exclusively, and 105 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 4: there's no quarrel with that. There'll be a lot more 106 00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 4: damage to America's if that kicks off a strong quarrel, 107 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 4: which it ought to, because he is not representing the 108 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,839 Speaker 4: American people. The American people are miles away from Trump 109 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 4: policies on all of this, then I think the recovery 110 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 4: of our reputation and standing will come much quicker now. 111 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:20,560 Speaker 3: Looking forward to trying to get people elected in America 112 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 3: who would act on climate action, they need to get 113 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: a message out that actually gets people voting for them. 114 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: And right now, if we look at the Democrats, one 115 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 3: strand of Democrats who are succeeding are succeeding because they 116 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 3: are not talking about climate change. Does that worry you No? 117 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 4: And I don't even know that that's true. I wouldn't 118 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 4: accept that premise. I see it differently. I think that 119 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 4: for a long time the Democratic Party has been way 120 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 4: too timid on climate stuff. President Obama walked away from 121 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 4: Nancy Pelosi's cap and trade bill when he had the 122 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 4: votes to pass it, but he just didn't want to 123 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 4: put the effort in and he didn't want to have 124 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 4: a fight, so he literally walked away from a winning position. 125 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 4: Joe Biden couldn't say a serious word about climate to 126 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 4: save his life. They wouldn't pick any fights with the 127 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 4: fossil fuel industry. They settled for an IRA bill that 128 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 4: was not an adequate solution to the climate crisis. It 129 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 4: was rare for him to mention climate except when he 130 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 4: was dealing with climate related advocates. We had no courage 131 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:40,079 Speaker 4: of our own convictions, and I think that communicates itself 132 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 4: to people. When you see a party that is half 133 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 4: hearted and hedging about an issue where you feel passionately, 134 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 4: where you know the science, where you see the urgency, 135 00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 4: it's hard to get very excited about that party. So 136 00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 4: I think what's been missing all along is a sense 137 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 4: of urgency. The American public is a head of the 138 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 4: Democratic Party on this, and we have multiple advantages. First, 139 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:09,119 Speaker 4: the public is ahead of us, but second, the Republican 140 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 4: Party is in the pockets of the fossil fuel industry. 141 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 4: Nobody would ever point that out. The Biden administration would 142 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 4: not talk about a villain under any circumstances. They thought 143 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 4: that being officer friendly and mister nice guy was going 144 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 4: to get them through the climate crisis. Meanwhile, on the 145 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,000 Speaker 4: other side of the table is this gang of fossil 146 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 4: fuel monsters running the biggest climate denial fraud campaign in history, 147 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 4: running a huge dark money corruption operation, trying to undermine 148 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 4: and destroy the clean energy industry. I mean, it's a 149 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 4: very very dangerous and malevolent group of people, and we 150 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 4: acted as if they were either not there or that 151 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 4: that was normal. So I think what people want is 152 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 4: for the Democratic Party to take a much more clear 153 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 4: fighting stance on this issue. And it's all going to 154 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 4: become a lot more real as it starts to land 155 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:11,199 Speaker 4: in people's homeowners insurance, electric bills, mortgage availability, the economic 156 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 4: side that is under a really immediate climate threat. 157 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 3: So if we look at the recent successes in the 158 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 3: Democratic Party, those are the issues that those successes came on. 159 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 3: Zoran Mandan in in New York City, in Virginia, in Georgia, 160 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 3: in New Jersey. It was price of energies, price of housing. 161 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 3: That is the stuff that won the Democrats, not climate change. 162 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 3: But yes, these things are connected to climate. 163 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 4: Issues, and one can connect them. But part of the 164 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 4: problem is that we haven't done a very good job 165 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 4: of it. I mean, I have sat in on high 166 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 4: level briefings to the Democratic Senate Caucus, where the polsters 167 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:54,199 Speaker 4: that were brought in to brief us on the issues 168 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,199 Speaker 4: hadn't bothered to ask a question about climate change, where 169 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 4: they hadn't bothered to ask a question about dark money corruption. 170 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 4: We have simply not been engaged in this in a 171 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 4: way that has allowed us to be confident about the 172 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 4: message that we can win with on this. 173 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 3: Where are the experiments happening in the Democratic Party to 174 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,360 Speaker 3: try and make those connections happen. Because the winning Democrats 175 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 3: right now are winning on the issues but not connecting 176 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 3: them to climate. 177 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 4: I think we are going to see this more in 178 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 4: the coming elections along the Gulf Coast. The first Democratic 179 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 4: candidate for governor in Florida is already talking a lot 180 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 4: about homeowners' insurance and what a catastrophe that is for Floridians, 181 00:11:40,760 --> 00:11:43,840 Speaker 4: and how Republicans can't be trusted on this subject because 182 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 4: they're completely in the pocket of the climate deniers. And 183 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:52,480 Speaker 4: that's the heart of the insurance problem. In Texas, we 184 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 4: just took a poll Ninety two percent of Texan voters 185 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 4: are concerned about homeowners insurance. Two thirds of them connect 186 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 4: that to climate change, weather. That's a big issue for 187 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 4: Democratic candidates down there. Ninety two percent was more than healthcare, 188 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 4: more than groceries, so this is an available, front of 189 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 4: mind issue for voters. The Democrats have misunderstood and ignored 190 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 4: and were only better than the Republicans because they're absolutely 191 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: awful on this and are on the payroll of the 192 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 4: fossil fuel industry. 193 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,680 Speaker 3: If you look at other communicators who are able to 194 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 3: get their climate message out, are there people that you 195 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 3: look up to, who are people who are making their 196 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 3: voices heard and actually connecting it to the issues that 197 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 3: people care about because you need those votes. 198 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 4: Well, I think the Australians have done a very very 199 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:45,199 Speaker 4: good job. They had the same thing we had. They 200 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,440 Speaker 4: had a right wing government that was in the pocket 201 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 4: of in its case, coal industry as much as oil 202 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 4: and gas. They were denying climate change. It was the 203 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 4: full fossil fuel nonsense package. And then the Labor government 204 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 4: came in and reversed their bad climate policies and started 205 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 4: to talk about climate in a different way and act 206 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 4: on climate in a different way. And now they've run 207 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 4: up to I think forty percent of Australian homes have 208 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 4: solar panels on the roof, and they're headed for seventy 209 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 4: eighty percent, and they're building behind that having domestic battery storage, 210 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 4: so you're off the grid on your own battery. They 211 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 4: are working on a plan to give Australians three free 212 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 4: hours of electricity a day because they've built so much 213 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 4: abundance of solar and wind that they can do that. 214 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 4: And they just got re elected with a big, big, big, 215 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 4: big margin and they had put climate at the front 216 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 4: of their policy agenda. So I think Australia is very 217 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 4: good proof of if you're actually doing things, if you're 218 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 4: not half hearted, and if you're bringing people along economically 219 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 4: with all of this, this can be a big win. 220 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,520 Speaker 3: It's very good at doing it cheaply. A soda panel 221 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 3: on the rooftop costs about eight hundred dollars a KILLO 222 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 3: vote in Australia, whereas it costs twenty five hundred dollars 223 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 3: a KILLO vote in America. But take a case of 224 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 3: the country I live in, the UK, which you know 225 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 3: just on numbers is a climate leader. Has cut the 226 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 3: most emissions among the G seven countries and the fastest, 227 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 3: and it doesn't have much of the fossil fuel industry left. 228 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 3: The Nazi oil and gas industry is has been declining. 229 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 4: For results of that is that both of your parties 230 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 4: are reasonable on climate. It was a Conservative government that 231 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 4: got into that aligned with the Seabam. 232 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 3: Indeed, but they are no longer. And that is what 233 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you, which is if you look 234 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 3: at the politics in the UK, now Labor government has 235 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 3: a clear majority and has three and a half years 236 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 3: left on the clock. But on the opposition that's Conservative 237 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 3: Party and now an upswing in Reform party. Both of 238 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 3: them want to get rid of net zero goals. The 239 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,880 Speaker 3: Conservative Party which brought in the NAZER now I wants 240 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 3: you to get rid of the Climate Change Act itself. 241 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 3: So it's not just fossil fuels. What else is driving 242 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 3: this backlash against climate. 243 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 4: I don't know. I'm not familiar with UK politics. In 244 00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 4: the US, it is fossil fuel, fossil fuel and fossil fuel. 245 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 4: In the EU, I think it is a little bit 246 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 4: of fossil fuel. I think a lot of it is 247 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 4: also Russia, Putin and his manipulation in European democracies. His 248 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 4: is a petro state. He is a petro dictator. My 249 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 4: friend in the Senate, John McCain, used to say that 250 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 4: Russia is a gas station run by gangsters that happens 251 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 4: to have an army, and you take away the gas 252 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 4: station and the whole game collapses. He can't pay off 253 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 4: his oligarchs any longer, so for him it's pretty existential. 254 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 4: Those to me have been the prime movers, and they've 255 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 4: been able to turn it into a bit of a 256 00:15:56,920 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 4: culture war phenomenon. 257 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 3: Also, and one way in which you think globally we 258 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 3: can start to actually get on pace with climate action 259 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 3: is through what is in the European jargon known as 260 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 3: the carbon border adjustment mechanism, which is really just a 261 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 3: SEABAM is a nice acronym but a fancy way of 262 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 3: saying a carbon tariff. That if you are going to 263 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 3: send in goods from India or China, which have typically 264 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 3: higher emissions intensity, but they come into Europe where if 265 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 3: the same good is made it will have lower emissions intensity. 266 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 3: The difference between the two is where you pay a 267 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 3: carbon tariff, and thus you protect domestic industry who are 268 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 3: doing the activities in a cleaner way. 269 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 4: Prevent cheating against proper environmental standards. 270 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 3: Right, And this is something you can do domestically. The 271 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 3: European Union has agreed to set it up, and it 272 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:56,840 Speaker 3: has extra territorial impacts. China's carbon pricing partly was driven 273 00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 3: because Europe was very clear that it's going to do 274 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 3: this at some point. Then comes the US and we 275 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 3: know that extra territoriality right now for the Trump administration 276 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 3: is an issue that they would bully other countries to 277 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 3: back down on. They are doing this not just on 278 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,880 Speaker 3: climate but on ESG issues like reporting on emissions. From 279 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 3: a corporate level, they're doing this on the tax that 280 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 3: EU and Canada wanted to put on tech companies, which 281 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 3: tend to be American. Extra territoriality from a climate perspective 282 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:36,119 Speaker 3: is great, but from a perspective of ensuring it lasts 283 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 3: for decades to come seems difficult. So how do you 284 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 3: make Ceman work when America is not interested? 285 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 4: First, a couple of things about SEABAM. It's already law 286 00:17:48,040 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: in the EU and to unwind it would take a 287 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 4: lot of parliamentary activity, so this is not just a proposal, 288 00:17:56,320 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 4: it's there. Second, the UK is in the final stage 289 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,160 Speaker 4: of joining. They're already in a place where they don't 290 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 4: have to pay tariffs, and they're working towards charging their 291 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,160 Speaker 4: own tariffs. Australia's right out there also, they're getting ready 292 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 4: to join as well. There's every reason to believe that 293 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 4: Canada should also join. And nobody understands the dangers to 294 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 4: the world economy from climate better than Prime Minister Mark Carney, 295 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 4: who was a leading voice when he ran the Bank 296 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 4: of England. So it's a growing, I hope, safety measure 297 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:34,119 Speaker 4: as well as a solid safety measure. The Trumpsters are 298 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 4: probably going to try to attack it. They recently launched 299 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 4: a really, really brutal and devilish attack against the International 300 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 4: Maritime Organization that was putting a shipping fee, an emissions 301 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 4: fee on shipping that its members agreed to. The major 302 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 4: shippers wanted this. There's no American ship involved because we 303 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 4: don't do container shipping. The price effect on American consumers 304 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 4: would be negligible, certainly compared to Trump's tariffs, and so 305 00:19:07,160 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 4: there was no real reason for the savagery of their attack, 306 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 4: which in diplomatic terms was unprecedented, and yet they did it. 307 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,960 Speaker 4: So why did they do it? They did it because 308 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 4: Trump is the face of fossil fuel, the real face 309 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 4: of fossil fuel, not the friendly smiling mask you get 310 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 4: here at cops and things like that. The real face 311 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 4: of fossil fuel is Trump and his activities. So what 312 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 4: the Sabaan folks need to do is to understand that 313 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 4: they're coming and be ready to steal themselves for that fight, 314 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 4: to be prepared, and to understand that they can't let 315 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 4: individual countries chicken out be picked off. One thing about Trump, 316 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 4: if you are resolute in standing up against him, and 317 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 4: if you're a group and you stand together and don't 318 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 4: back what way can't pick off individuals, He will move 319 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 4: on to something else. 320 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:07,400 Speaker 3: Give me an example. 321 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 4: The universities that told him to go shove it when 322 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 4: he tried to take over their internal policies. The law 323 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:18,160 Speaker 4: firms that told him to shove it when he tried 324 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:24,600 Speaker 4: to demand tribute from them. Those institutions have actually done 325 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 4: very well for doing that, and they found others and 326 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 4: they stuck together. The ones that gave in turned out 327 00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 4: to have been in a very difficult situation. In fact, 328 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 4: the law firms that gave in are having trouble hiring 329 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 4: because people don't want to work for a firm that 330 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 4: would cave in like that, and they're having trouble with 331 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 4: their clients. Because if you want a lawyer who is 332 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 4: going to cave in to political pressure from administration, what 333 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 4: happens if you need to sue the administration, you can't 334 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 4: have a lawyer who's proven they won't fight for you. 335 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 4: So I think those are some examples of where not 336 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 4: like being deliberately unpleasant, not putting a stick in the 337 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 4: eye of the administration, but just saying no, just standing 338 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 4: fast and refusing to be bullied. That works. But you 339 00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 4: will do better at standing fast and refusing to be 340 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 4: bullied if you appreciate that that's what's coming and you 341 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 4: need to be ready for it. 342 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 1: After the break, I ask Senator Whitehouse why climate advocates 343 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: seem to steer away from decisive action after they get 344 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: into power. And if you're enjoying zero, please take a 345 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,880 Speaker 1: moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 346 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,120 Speaker 1: and YouTube. It helps new listeners discover the show. 347 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 3: Thank you, you brought up Canada. You brought up McCartney. 348 00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 3: You're right, he's probably the only world leader in G 349 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 3: seven country who was a UN Climate Champion before he 350 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 3: took on that role. His first policy sign off after 351 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,919 Speaker 3: getting elected was to get rid of the consumer carbon tax. 352 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 3: His most recent policy update in the budget has been 353 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 3: to get rid of the oil and gas cap on 354 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 3: emissions that the that the previous administration under Justin Trudeau 355 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 3: was going to bring in. Claudia Scheinbaum, you know, an 356 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 3: environmental engineering graduate who knows this stuff really well, but 357 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,640 Speaker 3: her policies on climate are nowhere close to the level 358 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 3: of action that is needed. Say you were to run 359 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 3: for president and become president, you know the stuff in 360 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 3: and out. What we've seen from other world leaders is 361 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 3: that when they get into power, they change, even when 362 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,120 Speaker 3: they know the science, how do you stick with it? 363 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 4: I'm not in that position, so would you run for president? 364 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 4: But I'm not sure that. I haven't had a chance 365 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 4: to speak to Prime Minister Carney. I know that he 366 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,679 Speaker 4: knows as well. I know that he understands the dangers, 367 00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 4: and I don't know what his plan is as to 368 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:18,160 Speaker 4: how to go forward. Maybe his plan is to join 369 00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 4: this EVAM, in which case that's probably stronger. Consumer carbon 370 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,119 Speaker 4: taxes have never been effective, and they've never been good. 371 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 4: The carbon pricing measures that I have recommended have always 372 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 4: been at the extraction or importation level. And a lot 373 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 4: of that then goes away before it gets you through 374 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 4: multiple corporate layers and down ultimately to an oil pump 375 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 4: or a plastics product or whatever. And you don't have 376 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 4: to start very big to have a market effect as 377 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 4: long as the companies that are doing the polluting, that 378 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,159 Speaker 4: are buying these products know that here's where it's going 379 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 4: to be in five or ten years. So you can 380 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 4: plan a quite intelligent and very effective emissions reduction regime, 381 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 4: but you also have to be willing to communicate about it. 382 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 4: You've got to be willing to communicate that. You know, 383 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 4: people shouldn't be allowed to pollute for free. People get that. 384 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 4: I mean that's a huge. Seventy four to ten Americans 385 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 4: believe that people who pollute should pay the cost of 386 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 4: their pollution. That's a huge I mean, that's a wipeout 387 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,639 Speaker 4: of a majority. So we can step into that, we 388 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:26,840 Speaker 4: can take advantage of that. I think this is an 389 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 4: issue that the political class has misunderstood. 390 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 3: You have used the analogy that carbon pricing is a lifeboard, 391 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 3: that without this we don't have a chance of actually 392 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 3: tackling climate change. 393 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 4: Correct. There is a. 394 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 3: Danger with that message. Is the danger with the one 395 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 3: point five degree celsius message that, oh, if we can't 396 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 3: keep global warming below one point five degrees celsius, we 397 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:59,920 Speaker 3: are doomed. That message also doesn't go well with public 398 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 3: There's a clock on the UK pavilion that says, after 399 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: three years, two hundred and fifty nine days and seventy 400 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 3: two hours or whatever, you're going to have irreversible climate change. 401 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 3: And that's the kind of message that hasn't I. 402 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 4: Don't think it's sexually correct either. So there's a lot 403 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 4: of stupid stuff that is fed in the climate space. 404 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 4: So you can't just go chasing down the rabbit holes 405 00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 4: of every stupid thing that gets said in the climate space. 406 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:29,880 Speaker 4: You've got to focus on what counts, and what counts 407 00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 4: right now is that our chance that a pathway to 408 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 4: climate safety requires ending the economically wrongful and morally wrongful 409 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 4: freedom of the fossil fuel industry to pollute. That is 410 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 4: a violation of basic laws of economics. It is also 411 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 4: a violation of basic laws of decency and good manners. 412 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 4: So we shouldn't have a big fight about that. We 413 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,040 Speaker 4: also know, when you look at the twelve hundred climate 414 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 4: scenarios presented to the IPCC, the only eleven remain that 415 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,480 Speaker 4: get us a pathway to climate safety. All eleven require 416 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 4: there to be a price on carbon. Because we have 417 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 4: failed for so long on climate and satisfied ourselves with 418 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,639 Speaker 4: broad talk about ambition, we haven't focused on what we 419 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 4: actually need to do, and we now need to come 420 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,160 Speaker 4: into focus. What we actually need to do is end 421 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 4: the free to pollute business model. Even then all those 422 00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 4: eleven scenarios overshoot, we will go above one point five degrees. 423 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 4: So we also have to be able to have the 424 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 4: technology to pull that excess carbon dioxide back out of 425 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 4: the air to reduce the Earth's carbon concentration to a 426 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 4: livable level for humankind. These should not be complicated things 427 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:48,120 Speaker 4: to discuss, except for the fact that the fossil fuel 428 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 4: industry has this massive apparatus of lying and propaganda and 429 00:26:52,880 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 4: climate fraud, and they're bribing and corrupting administrations and governments 430 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 4: with the enormous amount of money that they get from 431 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 4: having it be free to pollute. So we just have 432 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 4: to steal ourselves for that fight and know that the 433 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 4: public will be with us because it's common sense. 434 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 3: But if we go with common pricing is the lifeboat, 435 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 3: and we end up in a place where the eve 436 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 3: you know, through years, because it might take years before 437 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 3: the votes to undo SEABAM happens. If that comes through. 438 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,280 Speaker 4: Then we're done. Then we've made an incredibly stupid and 439 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 4: irresponsible decision for our children and grandchildren, and the generation 440 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 4: that does that will be a generation that will be 441 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 4: last in shame through history. We have to stand up 442 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 4: to this problem, and we have to do it now, 443 00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 4: and we can. There is a winning path. 444 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 3: If you look at the damages done from climate change 445 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 3: insured non insured damages altogether last year. One assessment says 446 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 3: it was one point forllion dollars. 447 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:00,960 Speaker 4: Yep. 448 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 3: More than eight hundred billion dollars of that was in 449 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:04,800 Speaker 3: the United States. 450 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 4: Yep. 451 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,480 Speaker 3: This happened under a Joe Biden presidency. He was president 452 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 3: last year. 453 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't think the presidenc seems to blame for that. 454 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 3: No, but the message didn't get to if eight hundred 455 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:20,679 Speaker 3: billion dollars of American economy was wiped out because of 456 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 3: climate damages alone, why is the economic message not? 457 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 4: Really? Because name one time Joe Biden spoke about that 458 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 4: they were terrible about communicating the climate problem. They we 459 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 4: had to fight them to get a methane fee. They 460 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,320 Speaker 4: were trying to undermine the seamam. The fact that we 461 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 4: got the IRA through was something that they There's a 462 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,080 Speaker 4: lot of self laudatory noise about that, but basically, the 463 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 4: Biden administration was a climate failure. And you can't look 464 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 4: at a climate failure and say, you know, your messaging 465 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 4: didn't work. Of course it didn't work. You were a failure. 466 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 4: Had they done it correctly, had they talked about the danger, 467 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 4: had they talked about the damage, had they pointed out 468 00:29:05,640 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 4: what was already starting to happen in Florida to homeowners insurance, 469 00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 4: it would be a very different world. 470 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 3: Who are other people in the Democratic Party who you 471 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 3: look up to, who will form this alliance to try 472 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 3: and finally bring the climate message in the way it 473 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 3: needs to be brought to the American people. 474 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 4: Well, in the Senate, I have a little triumvirate that 475 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 4: has been working together, my climate trio at Senator Shots 476 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 4: who is likely to be the next Democratic whip the 477 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 4: number two position in the Senate. And Martin Heinrich, who 478 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 4: is a trained engineer, so he understands all this stuff. 479 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 4: And he's from New Mexico, which is an oil and 480 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 4: gas state, so he has to be really good about 481 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 4: messaging what he's doing. He just won big as a 482 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 4: huge climate advocate in an oil and gas state, so 483 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 4: I think people like him are a good messengers for us. 484 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 4: I also think that Catherine Cortes Masto has done a 485 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 4: good job politically with this issue. When the Biden administration 486 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 4: was panicked about gas prices and the huge apparatus of 487 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:22,959 Speaker 4: lies of the fossil fuel industry was calling this the 488 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 4: Biden gas price hike, she was running in Nevada, a 489 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 4: very purple state, and they were trying to come after 490 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 4: her with this. Most Democrats went and hid, tried to 491 00:30:34,880 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 4: change the subject. She seized that topic, and she went 492 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,080 Speaker 4: after her opponent and said, look at all of your 493 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 4: climate connections, look at who you've lobbied for, look at 494 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 4: what your party does. She went on offense, and by 495 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 4: the time that race was over, this was her issue 496 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 4: that she was beating her opponent down with, rather than 497 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 4: something where she was trying to hide and find shelter. 498 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 4: And when the Biden administration finally this up and took 499 00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,640 Speaker 4: the fight back to the fossil fuel industry and pointed 500 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,000 Speaker 4: out the grotesque profits that they had made during this period, 501 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 4: Suddenly the issue shifted in the public mind. So it 502 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,400 Speaker 4: proves that when you have a smart position and pursue 503 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 4: it aggressively, you can turn this around. Our problem is 504 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 4: isn't the climate messages can't win? Our problem is that 505 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 4: we haven't had smart climate messages that we have pursued aggressively. 506 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 4: They are there, we just didn't do it. And obviously, 507 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 4: if you've got polsters, it won't even pull the question. 508 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 4: You're a party that hasn't really got very good situational 509 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 4: awareness about this. 510 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 3: We just had a fifty four day shutdown in the 511 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 3: US and we saw how committed Donald Trump is not 512 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,400 Speaker 3: blinking first, So what is the lesson there for other 513 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,480 Speaker 3: countries such as the Europeans? 514 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 4: On CeMM, I think that the Trump administration responds very 515 00:31:55,240 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 4: poorly to provocation and insult. I think they respond very 516 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 4: respectfully to resolute firmness. They are bullies, it is their tactic, 517 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 4: and once a bully knows that he can push you around, 518 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,200 Speaker 4: he is going to continue to push you around because 519 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 4: he knows he can do it. So I think it 520 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 4: becomes very important that you not necessarily tease the bully, 521 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 4: but that you stand firm against the bully. The surprise 522 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 4: attack against the IMO came quite suddenly. I was at 523 00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 4: the Ocean's conference in June and met with the IMO 524 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 4: and said, how's this going to go. You're going to 525 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 4: be able to hang in on this because this is 526 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 4: a really important test for the future. This is an 527 00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,719 Speaker 4: actual price on carbon emissions and we need that to 528 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 4: succeed on climate. Oh no, we got this. This is fine. Yeah, 529 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 4: I know the Trump people don't like it, but we've 530 00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 4: really put a lot of effort into us. The companies 531 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,560 Speaker 4: that are the leading company all support us. We're good 532 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 4: to go. There's no danger of anything happening. Well, then 533 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 4: came the surprise attack and this unprecedented level of diplomatic bullying, 534 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 4: and the whole thing fell apart. So I hope that 535 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 4: that's a lesson for other international groups that you really 536 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 4: have to steel yourself and not allow yourself to be 537 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 4: panicked and picked off. They picked some of the weaker 538 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 4: members off first and began to take advantage of that. 539 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 4: I think if the IMO had seen that attack coming, 540 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 4: they might have been more resolute about standing up. 541 00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 3: But arguably you've already seen the Europeans compromising when they 542 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,719 Speaker 3: signed the trade deal and agreed to seven hundred and 543 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 3: fifty billion dollars worth of imports of natural gas and 544 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 3: oil from the US. So why do you think they 545 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 3: can stand up to Trump on SEABAM. 546 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 4: It's hard to figure that out. There's always back and 547 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 4: forth when tariffs are being negotiated. I do think when 548 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 4: it's as vital as the SEAVAM, when it is in 549 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 4: fact the last lifeboat, if we don't have that carbon 550 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:05,680 Speaker 4: pricing regime and we just cascade forward and do worse 551 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 4: and worse economic and financial disasters because of the climate threat, 552 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:14,919 Speaker 4: then we will regret that very very very deeply. So 553 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 4: and you know what the foss feel industry wants to target. 554 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,920 Speaker 4: They live on a seven hundred billion dollars subsidy in 555 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 4: the United States alone. The value of being allowed to 556 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,799 Speaker 4: pollute for free seven hundred billion dollars is a lot 557 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 4: of money. It motivates a lot of corruption. It makes 558 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 4: money available for enormous flotillas of front groups to operate 559 00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 4: the climate fraud operation that they run. It's a big, 560 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 4: big operation, and I think you've got to distinguish between 561 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,800 Speaker 4: when that operation comes after you using Trump administration officials 562 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,000 Speaker 4: and just the ordinary back and forth and give and 563 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 4: take of regular, sometimes difficult negotiations on the c BAM. 564 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,879 Speaker 4: They've got to be ready for that operation coming at 565 00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 4: them using Trump its tool right now. Our success or 566 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 4: failure on climate largely hangs on whether or not the 567 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 4: c BAM is protected and whether or not it grows, 568 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 4: whether or not the UK and Australia continue to come 569 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 4: on in, and that perhaps the most important thing that 570 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 4: the EU countries are doing for the future. A heroic 571 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 4: moment is to do this and to hold. But the 572 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 4: IMO ought to be a lesson to them that the 573 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 4: Phosphel administration is desperate and engaged in evil behavior constantly. 574 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 4: Unless you think climate denial, fraud and dark money corruption 575 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 4: are fine, it's pretty evil stuff. And they have the 576 00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:50,319 Speaker 4: United States government right now as their tool to bring 577 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 4: pressure to bear, so you really have to be prepared 578 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:57,720 Speaker 4: for unusual amounts of pressure. But the lesson of Trump 579 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,439 Speaker 4: is that if you do in fact stand up to him, 580 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 4: and if you don't break ranks and flee, then you 581 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 4: can prevail. 582 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:08,760 Speaker 3: One country that has stood up to Trump has been China, 583 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 3: and it has some Trump cards, like the critical minerals 584 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:18,000 Speaker 3: that it produces and refines the in a monopolistic way, 585 00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 3: almost and it has succeeded wildly in being able to 586 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 3: get its way with the Trump administration. But crucially, it's 587 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 3: also the place which is bringing energy prices down, bringing 588 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 3: electricity prices down, building the most amount of electricity infrastructure, 589 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 3: the form of energy that's the form of energy the 590 00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 3: twenty first century needs. Once at the same time, the 591 00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,920 Speaker 3: US is moving away from clean energy, but moving away 592 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 3: from electrification more importantly, How worried are you about the 593 00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:52,920 Speaker 3: competitiveness issues that will raise when Trump leaves office? 594 00:36:53,280 --> 00:37:01,320 Speaker 4: Very economic competition, technological innovation. Those are races and different 595 00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 4: economies compete to do the best in those races, and Trump, 596 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 4: for the benefit of his fossil fuel donors, corruptly is 597 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:18,960 Speaker 4: hobbling his own country in that competition. And you know, 598 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,280 Speaker 4: you can hope and believe that because of American innovation 599 00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,600 Speaker 4: and entrepreneurship is so great that if we have to 600 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 4: stop in a race and let other countries run past 601 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 4: us and away for years, we can get back in 602 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,919 Speaker 4: the race at some point and catch up. But how 603 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 4: stupid is it to step out of the race for 604 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 4: those years? And I think there's going to be a 605 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 4: significant economic price that the country will pay for that. 606 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,880 Speaker 4: You know, I've driven by the BYD dealerships here in Brazil, 607 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 4: and Brazil's a big market for vehicles. This would be 608 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 4: a nice place to have a lot of American cars 609 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 4: be sold. But the Chinese are mopping up in the 610 00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:01,839 Speaker 4: Brazilian market in our hemisphere, in a fellow democracy. All 611 00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 4: of that. So, I don't see the wisdom of kicking 612 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 4: our own automotive companies in the teeth and saying you've 613 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 4: got to build internal combustion engines when the future is 614 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 4: going a different way. Does anybody any good except his 615 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,439 Speaker 4: fossil fuel patrons. This is corruption, this is payback. You've 616 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 4: got to see it in those terms. 617 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,000 Speaker 3: The Bwady factory in Brazil was built on the same 618 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 3: site as the Ford factory. 619 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,240 Speaker 4: How about that for a metaphor? 620 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 1: Thank you, senator, good to be with you, and thank 621 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: you for listening to zero. Now for the sound of 622 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: the week. That is the sound of bees making honey 623 00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: inside their hive. Reporting from Bloomberg shows that honeybees are 624 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,600 Speaker 1: under threat in the US as grasslands are transformed to 625 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: grow corn for bio fuelds. Read the full article on 626 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: bloomberg dot Com forward slash screen. It's also linked in 627 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 1: the show notes. If you like this episode, please take 628 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: a moment to rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 629 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 1: and YouTube. This episode was produced by Oscar Boyd and 630 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:17,719 Speaker 1: our theme music is composed by Wonderly Special Thanks to 631 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,280 Speaker 1: Jennifer de Louis, Samersadi Moses Andim Laura Milan and Sharon 632 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: chen I am Akshatrati Back soon.