WEBVTT - Prenups Are For Lovers w/ Aaron Thomas #743 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:03.680 Welcome to Had to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt. 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.560 And today we're talking why prenups are for lovers with 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:07.400 Aaron Thomas. 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:27.200 Yeah. 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.280 So, I'm guessing that the title of this episode may 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.320 have come as a shock to a lot of folks 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:34.479 out there. If you've been listening to the show for 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.640 a while, you may have picked up on the fact 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:40.080 that Joel and I were not actually big fans of 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.640 the prenuptial agreement. But maybe our guest today can change 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.440 our minds. We are joined by Aaron Thomas. Aaron is 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:51.520 a graduate of Harvard Law who also happens to live 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.160 in our old neighborhood back in Atlanta. Little eav shout 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.880 out there. Aaron has decades of experience in his clients 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:03.600 range from NBA Hall of Famers to the little couple 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:05.880 that you know who lives down the street. He founded 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:08.760 prenups dot Com, and he's recently published a new book, 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.720 The Prenup Prescription, where he argues that a proper prenup 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:17.280 can not only protect, but actually improve your relationship. That's 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:18.920 what we're going to be talking about today, So Erin, 0:01:18.959 --> 0:01:21.280 thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:23.520 Thanks so much for having me really happy to be here. 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.959 Yeah, no, we're excited to have this conversation. Aaron, And 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:28.280 like Matt alluded to, it's been something that when we 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.560 get asked about it, we don't necessarily have the same take, 0:01:31.600 --> 0:01:33.960 but I will say I was convinced in many ways 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:36.959 reading your book and hearing what you your arguments. But 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:40.960 the first question we ask everyone who comes on this podcast, 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.720 we want to know what your craft beer equivalent is. 0:01:43.720 --> 0:01:46.000 Matt and I we like to splurge on tasty craft 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:47.880 beer that could be expensive, but we're also doing the 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.840 right thing. We're saving and investing simultaneously. So what's that 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:52.280 splurge look like in your life? 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.840 Yeah? Yeah, for me and my wife, our big splurge 0:01:56.080 --> 0:02:00.680 would definitely be travel. We set money aside for it 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:04.400 specifically every year, try to really make an effort to 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:06.640 take trips. And we you know, are frugal in a 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:08.760 lot over the ways we drive our cars until they're 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.280 dragging down the street. And you know, we're not big shopper, 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:14.200 but yeah, I'm a brown bagger you know when it 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.919 comes to lunch. But travel, Yeah, our that's our one 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:17.280 big thing. 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:19.600 Aaron, as a man after my own heart, taking those 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:20.560 left over still work. 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:21.680 That's right, Matt. 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.240 Literally, that's his number one money saving tip is each 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:25.040 your leftover. 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.359 Sy It's just such a there are so many unnecessary 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:30.040 expenses that occur, and maybe a little bit less as 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.120 more folks are working from home. But you go out 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.440 to the office, and then you are trading the most 0:02:34.440 --> 0:02:37.720 affordable way to enjoy lunch, which is eating the food 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.040 that you've already purchased and that's already been prepared for you, 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:42.639 to the most expensive way, which is going out to 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:43.359 lunch with folks. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.160 But I love it, Erin, thanks for sharing that. 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:49.680 And let's go ahead and just completely dive into talking 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:52.639 about prenups today. I'm actually not sure what this says 0:02:52.680 --> 0:02:56.440 about the romantic sensibilities of Americans, but there's a growing 0:02:56.480 --> 0:03:00.280 acceptance of prenups. I'm sure you probably saw and have 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.440 seen this data, but there is a Harris poll. They 0:03:02.520 --> 0:03:05.760 found that exactly fifty percent of Americans now say that 0:03:05.840 --> 0:03:09.160 they at least somewhat support the use of prenups, which 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:13.600 has risen quickly compared to previous years. Millennials are five 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:17.399 times more likely to get a prenup than twelve years ago. 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:21.399 Why do you think this perception is shifting so fast. 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.480 Why are folks just so much more open to the 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:24.280 idea of prenups. 0:03:24.360 --> 0:03:27.680 Yeah, I think there's probably a few things at play here. 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.760 One is for millennials and you know, kind of the 0:03:32.080 --> 0:03:35.560 cohort of people who are getting married today, they saw 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.640 their parents go through probably the biggest, you know, the 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:43.080 highest divorce rate period of the nineteen eighties here in 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:45.960 the US, and saw the strife that came from that, 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:49.120 all of the you know, money spent, you know, how 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.560 long the litigation lasted, and they're saying, you know, no 0:03:51.680 --> 0:03:54.200 way am I going to you know, end up in 0:03:54.200 --> 0:03:56.280 that kind of position that I saw, you know, my parents' 0:03:56.280 --> 0:03:59.280 older generations. And then I think there's also just kind 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:02.440 of like a difference in a generational difference in the 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:05.600 way that they look at marriage and that you know, 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:08.000 not that it's not romantic or not that they're you know, 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:12.840 expecting to get divorced, certainly, but that you know, practicality 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:14.960 kind of wins out, and that it's just kind of 0:04:14.960 --> 0:04:16.720 the smart thing to do. A lot of the stigma 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:19.200 has resided when it comes to prenups. 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:21.080 Part of that has to do with the fact that 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:24.400 young folks are getting married later and later in life, right, 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.200 and so they've built up more assets. So when you 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.640 get married at twenty six versus thirty six, there's a 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:32.360 big difference in kind of what you've been able to 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:34.719 achieve in your career. Maybe you've got a rental property 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.599 or two. You've certainly got more money, hopefully it sucked 0:04:37.640 --> 0:04:40.880 away in your retirement accounts. So does that kind of 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.800 change in stage life stage of when people are getting married, 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.280 does that impact kind of how I don't know how 0:04:48.279 --> 0:04:51.200 they feel about prenups and their willingness to partake in 0:04:51.279 --> 0:04:52.000 one totally. 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.080 That's that is a huge part of the difference. You know, 0:04:56.040 --> 0:04:59.120 when you look at kind of the difference of last 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:02.200 generation in this generation, like you said, it is right 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:05.960 about ten years difference in the age that we're getting 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.880 married in today's day and age than our parents, our grandparents' generation. 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:11.599 So you know, in the nineteen sixties, when a couple 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:14.560 got married, the average age of marriage was about twenty 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:18.560 one years old, and a couple back then had very 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:21.800 simple finances, so they were likely to have you know, 0:05:21.960 --> 0:05:24.679 zero maybe one bank account between the two of them. 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.920 Credit cards didn't really exist. Four to one k's hadn't 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.800 been invented yet. You could still work your way through school, 0:05:30.839 --> 0:05:33.040 so there wasn't kind of the six figures of student 0:05:33.040 --> 0:05:35.960 loans type situations. So, you know, the couple getting married 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:38.920 in you know, say the mid nineteen sixties or nineteen seventies, 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:40.960 it was like a startup you know, you're starting from 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:43.680 completely from scratch, and two people were coming together and 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.000 moving in together and building their life together. Whereas you 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:50.720 compare that to today's couples who get married on average 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:54.159 at age like thirty, and each spouse is likely to 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:57.080 have four or five bank accounts, three or four credit cards, 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.640 a retirement account or two, a car with an against it, 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.200 maybe a conda with some equity, maybe a small business, right, 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.000 and so it's so much more complex. You know, if 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.960 if the couple in the sixties was a startup company, 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.799 the couple getting married today is like a corporate and merger, right, 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.280 and you just you wouldn't do something of that magnitude 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.560 without taking little more seriously and putting some more thought 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:19.440 and planning into. 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.280 It, which I totally get, and I'll readily admit I 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:24.160 think that's a part of my own personal bias. The 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:26.320 fact that my wife and I we were she was 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:30.320 twenty one, we were very young, had basically nothing to 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.600 our names and everything that we have created, it's something 0:06:33.600 --> 0:06:36.120 that we did together. Let's we want to talk a 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:38.440 little bit about marriage. I guess that's what prenups are 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:42.200 all about to a certain extent. But marriage is generally speaking, 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:44.760 like you talk about just the legal realities of it. 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.720 And I'm curious if any part of you just thinks that, 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.760 like going through the legal marriage process, like, does any 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:54.719 part of you feel that that's kind of outdated or 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.160 that things are better off now that fewer folks are 0:06:59.160 --> 0:06:59.600 getting married. 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:01.040 I'm kind of us to hear your thoughts there. 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.520 Yeah, I think my I think my views on this 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.520 have evolved a little bit. You know, I always looked 0:07:07.560 --> 0:07:10.360 at marriage kind of you know, traditionally. My my parents 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:15.080 just celebrated fifty seven years together. My wife's parents are 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:19.200 still together, and so, you know, I've always, you know, personally, 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:22.840 looked as that marriage is like a lifelong commitment, as 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:27.440 a positive thing for society and for myself personally. I'll 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.920 tell you though, you know, being a divorce lawyer will 0:07:30.960 --> 0:07:34.600 scare you a little bit when it comes to marriage. 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:38.280 I mean, I started practicing family law, you know, many 0:07:38.280 --> 0:07:42.160 many years ago, and after a few years of watching 0:07:42.280 --> 0:07:45.520 what divorce really does to people and does to families, 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:48.920 I started warning friends and family and anybody who would 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:52.200 listen against marriage. You know, I not the commitment. You know, sure, 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:54.840 get committed, you know, have a have a big party, 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.920 wear a white dress, change your last name, move in together, 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:01.400 but don't go through the actual legal relationship, you know, 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.480 the legal step of getting married, because people don't know 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:06.440 what they're signing up for, you know what the legal 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:09.640 you know, aspect of it is. Obviously, I've you know, 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:12.000 changed my view on it. I'm now, you know, happily 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:17.280 married myself, and I think that there is a way 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:19.040 to do it correctly. I just think that it is 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:22.320 much more complex than it used to be. 0:08:22.560 --> 0:08:24.760 So what are people signing up for that they don't 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:27.240 know they're signing up for? Then, I guess, because I 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:30.160 think you're right. Like reading your book, thinking through all 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:31.840 this stuff, I was like, why do people get married 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:32.360 in the first place? 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:33.560 Then, and You're like, you're right. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.160 Part of me wants wants to say all these other 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.720 benefits of a lifelong partnership, but why does it have 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:43.080 to be marriage, at least in the state specific sense 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:44.559 of fact, you're signing up for all these kind of 0:08:44.600 --> 0:08:45.320 legal obligations. 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.640 Yeah. Yeah, So I mean what getting married is and 0:08:48.720 --> 0:08:52.080 I call it the biggest financial decision that you'll ever make. 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:53.800 You know, a lot of people think it's you know, 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:57.160 buying a house or starting a business, but getting married 0:08:57.280 --> 0:08:59.720 touches so many parts of your financial life. It really 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.760 is the biggest financial decision you'll ever make. And from 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:06.280 the day that you get married forward, every dollar that 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:09.640 you earn, that very first paycheck that you get after 0:09:09.679 --> 0:09:13.360 the day of marriage is considered marital property, and so 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.920 it no longer belongs just to you. Everything belongs to 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.000 you as a couple. And this it really doesn't matter 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.240 whose name is on a bank account, whose name is 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:22.840 on a piece of property, whose name is on a 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.200 retirement account or a credit card. It's all considered, you know, 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:29.800 one pile of finances from the day that you get married, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.320 and a lot of people don't figure that out until 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.439 they are in you know, unfortunately, a divorced lawyer's office 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:38.719 years down the road and they're saying, what do you 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.120 mean he wants half of my retirement? What do you 0:09:41.160 --> 0:09:43.360 mean she wants half of the house. I kept it 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.560 in my name only, and I paid the mortgage review month. 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:48.360 And I would have to explain to people that, well, 0:09:48.400 --> 0:09:51.240 once you were married, that was no longer just your money. 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:54.160 It was y'all's money. You can come from the South, 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.440 it was you know, that's money belonged to the two 0:09:56.480 --> 0:09:59.520 of you. And so there was a lot of unintended 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:03.680 consequence and things that people own prior to marriage getting 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:08.400 commingled accidentally, and so you know, people are really in 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.360 need of like some clarity in terms of what it 0:10:10.400 --> 0:10:12.120 is they're signing for, signing up for in. 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:14.400 Mind, Yeah, I think there probably does need a good 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.920 bit more counseling pre marital counseling, right where folks do 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.200 they are able to enter into those relationships with their 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.320 eyes wide open. And it's interesting too, though, how you've 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:24.880 sort of changed your tune a little bit. And I'm 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.439 curious if you if you're a fan of marriage now 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:29.120 that you are happily married, and you're like, well, I've 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.120 got you know, I got a root for the home team, right, 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.760 It's so there's that, But then I'm curious too, have 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:39.280 you seen the Melissa Kearney. She's an economist and a 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:42.400 lot of research has come out recently regarding just the 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:47.120 power the advantage that two parent households have in particular 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:50.760 when it comes to raising up children. Right, it's and 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.360 it's not only it's not only like a financial advantage, 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.199 it's also kids don't get in trouble at school, they're 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.720 less likely to be arrested, they're they're more likely to 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:02.080 actually complete school. So some of those behavioral issues kind 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:05.000 of melts away a little bit as well, because I 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:08.199 feel like that, you know, faced with this new research 0:11:08.240 --> 0:11:10.640 and data, which surprisingly there hasn't been a ton of 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.880 up until recently, it kind of, in my mind, puts 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.520 marriage in particular in a new light. What are your 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:17.400 Do you have any thoughts on that? 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:20.680 Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah, And I am familiar with Kearney's work, 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:23.480 the new book about the two parent household and all 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:25.439 the advantages that come from that. I mean, I think 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:29.120 a lot of this we know kind of anecdotally and 0:11:29.240 --> 0:11:33.520 intuitively how many advantages there are, but seeing the data, 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.160 it really is compelling. And you know, my kind of 0:11:38.400 --> 0:11:41.480 reluctance when it came to marriage didn't have anything to 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.320 do with you know, being scared of the lifelong commitment 0:11:44.480 --> 0:11:46.960 and all the advantages that come from an intact household. 0:11:47.000 --> 0:11:49.920 I wanted those things for myself. It was really fear 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:52.760 of messing it up. It was fear of ending up 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.640 in a divorce. And you know, in my view, a 0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:59.680 messy divorce was best avoided at pretty much any cost. 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:02.040 You know, I don't think that's that controversial for a 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:03.920 statement to say that you should do whatever you can 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.200 to avoid a messy divorce. And you know, there's two 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:08.560 ways to do it right. One is not to get married, 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:11.160 and two is trying to try very very hard to 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.120 keep your marriage together. And then you know a third 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:16.200 would be, you know, put yourself in a position so 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:18.560 that if your marriage does come to an end that 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.079 it is not kind of the expensive nightmare year and 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:25.400 a half of litigation in a very public courtroom that 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.400 I witnessed as you know, a divorce litigator. 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:28.920 Yeah. 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.240 Now, I mean the older I get, the more I've 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.880 seen couples that I thought I would have like bet 0:12:33.880 --> 0:12:36.840 money early on, there's no way that that marriage is 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.560 going to dissolve, and things happen right, and it's it's 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.360 really sad to watch as a friend but it's also 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:46.560 sobering right to say, like I'm doing my best here 0:12:46.600 --> 0:12:50.200 in my marriage, but and I'm hoping and praying right 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:51.599 that like we're able to stick it out for the 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:53.640 long run, just like that's what you want, Aaron, But 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.040 you also see the sad reality of kind of what 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:58.720 happens in our culture. And it's not half of divorces, 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:00.839 but it's somewhere close to half of marriage is to 0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:03.480 end in divorce. So I guess my question to you 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:05.880 is what do you do on the front end, right 0:13:05.920 --> 0:13:08.959 the getting financially naked sort of thing, at the very beginning, 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:13.360 What sort of things need to be discussed as you're dating, 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:16.520 as you're like working towards engagement, thinking about marriage, starting 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.320 to talk about that stuff. What needs to be put 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:19.920 on the table on the front end. 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:23.080 Yeah, yeah, great question, I am. And that's where you 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:25.000 have to start, is at the very beginning, you know, 0:13:25.160 --> 0:13:28.760 before you even get married. And I am an advocate 0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:32.640 of full disclosure. Due diligence is what a lawyer might 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:37.280 call it. Right where you get completely, you know, financially 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.040 naked with your spouse, which is sometimes more difficult than 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:46.360 getting physically naked with your partner. But by literally putting 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:50.000 everything on the table in writing in black and white. 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:53.960 That means creating a net worth statement for yourself and 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.200 for your spouse so that there are no surprises trading 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:01.000 that information. And I find that just that step alone, 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:02.840 you know, number one, it's something that a lot of 0:14:02.840 --> 0:14:05.720 couples haven't done because there's there's no kind of natural 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:08.319 time to say, hey, by the way, i've got twenty 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:10.280 grand a credit card debt, or you know, I haven't 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.040 saved as much for a retirement and as I wish 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:14.120 I had. But it's kind of you know, you get 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.080 a little bit of an amnesty because Okay, we're planning 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.920 our life together. We need to you know, be completely 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.200 transparent in terms of what we're bringing in. But it 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:25.640 will also spawn what I think are very necessary conversations 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:30.680 about your habits. You know, how you view money, what 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.040 your kind of relationship was money growing up in your household. 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:36.760 You know, do you like to carry debt on credit cards? 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:40.000 Do you pay everything off you know month to month? 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.360 What's your investment strategy? And you know, we talked about 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:46.880 how much more complex people's finances are when they get married, 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.280 because we're getting married older But the other aspect of 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.520 that is we're coming in with a decade or more 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:55.760 of financial habits that we've built up on our own 0:14:55.840 --> 0:14:58.840 since we left our parents' household, and sometimes that can 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:01.560 be the more tricky thing to combine than just the 0:15:01.560 --> 0:15:03.280 bank accounts and the credit cards. 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:04.800 Yeah, I mean kind of, I guess on that note, 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:06.800 this is kind of earlier on in your book, But 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:10.840 you say the financial dynamics within a marriage actually dictate 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.120 the personal dynamics of that marriage. 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:14.880 Can you talk about that for a little bit. 0:15:15.000 --> 0:15:18.480 Yes, The you know, how your your financial structure is 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.680 set up can say a lot about what your marriage 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:23.160 looks like. And so, you know, I'll give you an example. 0:15:24.120 --> 0:15:26.760 You know, I did a divorce for a couple where 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:30.400 the husband worked, had a good job, made you know, 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.760 two and a grand year, and his wife was home 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:38.640 helping raise their two children. And he made that kind 0:15:38.640 --> 0:15:40.080 of money, he made two hund a grand a year, 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:42.720 and he gave her an allowance of three hundred dollars 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:46.480 a month. And without knowing anything else about that couple, 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:51.840 you could probably intuit some other aspects of their relationship. 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.000 Yeah, allowance. 0:15:53.760 --> 0:15:56.480 When we're talking about a husband spouse relationship there right 0:15:57.000 --> 0:15:58.040 exactly exactly. 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:03.920 I mean, there was this really unequal power dynamic. She 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:07.520 felt powerless, she felt trapped. He was lording over her. 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:10.160 And you know, there's one thing that I've learned, it's, 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.880 you know, two spouses living in the same household but 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:17.480 in different socioeconomic classes is a recipe for disaster. That is, 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:18.840 that is not going to work. 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:21.360 It feels so weird, even just the way, I mean, 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:24.000 everything about what you said about that couple, yeah, felt bad. 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:29.120 The allowance, the actual amounts, the fact that there might 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:32.400 be a couple and they're in essentially different classes does 0:16:32.480 --> 0:16:34.560 not It's gonna breed resentment. Something about that doesn't seem 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:35.640 real quick for sure. 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:38.520 I know too that you talk about how different states 0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:40.480 have different rules when it comes to marriage and when 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.000 it comes to divorce. And one of the things actually 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:47.160 that brought me because I came into this conversation a 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:50.280 little more skeptical about prenups, But one of the things 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.119 that brought me around the most was that you basically 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:55.120 argue for the fact that we all have a prenup 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.240 even if we didn't sign one, and it's the divorce 0:16:57.320 --> 0:16:59.960 laws in our state. It's the default essentially that we're 0:17:00.000 --> 0:17:01.760 going to come up against no matter what. 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:02.960 So I don't know. 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.160 It seems to me that coming up with our own 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.080 bespoke prenup is just way to create a more set, 0:17:09.480 --> 0:17:13.000 fair set of rules than just kind of throwing caution 0:17:13.080 --> 0:17:15.639 to the wind whatever my state dictates or whatever. Like 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.399 talk to us two about this. In many states, it 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:20.199 can be like what the judge had for breakfast, how 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.680 they're feeling that day, how they determines, how they rule, 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:25.520 and how the assets get split out. 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:29.639 That's absolutely correct. And you know, if we define a 0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.280 prenup for a moment, you know, a prenup is really 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.920 just it's a set of rules that dictates how your 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.639 finances are treated, yes, in the event of divorce, but 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:41.879 also during the marriage itself. But when it comes to 0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.639 you know, the possible end of your marriage and the 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.760 division of assets, you are signing up for whatever your 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.240 state's laws happen to be, and if you move, your 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.920 contract has changed. And very few of us, if any 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:59.160 of us, read the quote unquote contract the default prenup 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.120 meaning the law because of your state as it pertains 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:06.800 to your assets. Prior to getting married. Almost everyone only 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.480 figured these things out in the context of a divorce, 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.960 and so I think that the real there is real 0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.040 power in deciding what works for you and your spouse 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:17.560 and your marriage based on where you are in your life, 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.439 rather than accepting this kind of one size fits all, 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.840 cookie cutter approach. And you are putting yourself in the hands, 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:29.119 potentially where of a judge who is randomly assigned to 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.360 your case, who could have views on life and marriage 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:36.040 and family and money very very different from yours. And 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.040 I have seen firsthand, you know, situations where you walk 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:41.560 into one courtroom and one judge looks at the situation 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:43.600 that says, well, you aren't all the money, and what 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:45.400 did you do? So, yeah, you're gonna get eighty percent 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:47.360 of the assets. And you go to the very next 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.560 courtroom down the hall and a judge says, I'm going 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:52.879 to split everything in this in this case fifty to fifty, 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:57.159 no matter what, and that that kind of uncertainty is 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:00.720 just unnecessary. When you can choose your your own rules 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.560 and kind of voluntary commit yourself to a situation that 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:05.720 you and your spouse personally agree. 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:07.320 To, it makes a lot of sense. I think you're 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:08.399 making a good case for it. 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.359 Aaron, you know, like the ability to have rules that 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:13.720 you know that you're playing by ahead of time. 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:15.000 I think that can always be helpful. 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:17.080 It makes me think of like sitting down and play 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:18.840 play one of the nerdy board games that we play, 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:20.000 and then like all of a sudden. 0:19:19.800 --> 0:19:21.800 Halfway through the game, the rules shift. 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.480 Well, that wouldn't be cool, yeah, But being able to 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:27.040 agree to a set list of rules, I guess it 0:19:27.080 --> 0:19:29.720