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Speaker 1: Welcome to Had to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt.

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Speaker 2: And today we're talking why prenups are for lovers with

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Speaker 2: Aaron Thomas.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So, I'm guessing that the title of this episode may

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Speaker 3: have come as a shock to a lot of folks

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Speaker 3: out there. If you've been listening to the show for

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Speaker 3: a while, you may have picked up on the fact

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Speaker 3: that Joel and I were not actually big fans of

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Speaker 3: the prenuptial agreement. But maybe our guest today can change

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Speaker 3: our minds. We are joined by Aaron Thomas. Aaron is

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Speaker 3: a graduate of Harvard Law who also happens to live

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Speaker 3: in our old neighborhood back in Atlanta. Little eav shout

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Speaker 3: out there. Aaron has decades of experience in his clients

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Speaker 3: range from NBA Hall of Famers to the little couple

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Speaker 3: that you know who lives down the street. He founded

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Speaker 3: prenups dot Com, and he's recently published a new book,

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Speaker 3: The Prenup Prescription, where he argues that a proper prenup

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Speaker 3: can not only protect, but actually improve your relationship. That's

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Speaker 3: what we're going to be talking about today, So Erin,

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Speaker 3: thank you so much for joining us on the podcast.

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Speaker 4: Thanks so much for having me really happy to be here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, we're excited to have this conversation. Aaron, And

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Speaker 2: like Matt alluded to, it's been something that when we

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Speaker 2: get asked about it, we don't necessarily have the same take,

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Speaker 2: but I will say I was convinced in many ways

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Speaker 2: reading your book and hearing what you your arguments. But

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Speaker 2: the first question we ask everyone who comes on this podcast,

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Speaker 2: we want to know what your craft beer equivalent is.

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Speaker 2: Matt and I we like to splurge on tasty craft

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Speaker 2: beer that could be expensive, but we're also doing the

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Speaker 2: right thing. We're saving and investing simultaneously. So what's that

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Speaker 2: splurge look like in your life?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, for me and my wife, our big splurge

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Speaker 4: would definitely be travel. We set money aside for it

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Speaker 4: specifically every year, try to really make an effort to

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Speaker 4: take trips. And we you know, are frugal in a

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Speaker 4: lot over the ways we drive our cars until they're

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Speaker 4: dragging down the street. And you know, we're not big shopper,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, I'm a brown bagger you know when it

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Speaker 4: comes to lunch. But travel, Yeah, our that's our one

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Speaker 4: big thing.

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Speaker 3: Aaron, as a man after my own heart, taking those

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Speaker 3: left over still work.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Matt.

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Speaker 2: Literally, that's his number one money saving tip is each

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Speaker 2: your leftover.

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Speaker 3: Sy It's just such a there are so many unnecessary

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Speaker 3: expenses that occur, and maybe a little bit less as

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Speaker 3: more folks are working from home. But you go out

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Speaker 3: to the office, and then you are trading the most

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Speaker 3: affordable way to enjoy lunch, which is eating the food

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Speaker 3: that you've already purchased and that's already been prepared for you,

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Speaker 3: to the most expensive way, which is going out to

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Speaker 3: lunch with folks.

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Speaker 1: But I love it, Erin, thanks for sharing that.

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Speaker 3: And let's go ahead and just completely dive into talking

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Speaker 3: about prenups today. I'm actually not sure what this says

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Speaker 3: about the romantic sensibilities of Americans, but there's a growing

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Speaker 3: acceptance of prenups. I'm sure you probably saw and have

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Speaker 3: seen this data, but there is a Harris poll. They

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Speaker 3: found that exactly fifty percent of Americans now say that

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Speaker 3: they at least somewhat support the use of prenups, which

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Speaker 3: has risen quickly compared to previous years. Millennials are five

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Speaker 3: times more likely to get a prenup than twelve years ago.

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Speaker 3: Why do you think this perception is shifting so fast.

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Speaker 3: Why are folks just so much more open to the

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Speaker 3: idea of prenups.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think there's probably a few things at play here.

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Speaker 4: One is for millennials and you know, kind of the

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Speaker 4: cohort of people who are getting married today, they saw

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Speaker 4: their parents go through probably the biggest, you know, the

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Speaker 4: highest divorce rate period of the nineteen eighties here in

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Speaker 4: the US, and saw the strife that came from that,

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Speaker 4: all of the you know, money spent, you know, how

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Speaker 4: long the litigation lasted, and they're saying, you know, no

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Speaker 4: way am I going to you know, end up in

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Speaker 4: that kind of position that I saw, you know, my parents'

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Speaker 4: older generations. And then I think there's also just kind

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Speaker 4: of like a difference in a generational difference in the

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Speaker 4: way that they look at marriage and that you know,

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Speaker 4: not that it's not romantic or not that they're you know,

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Speaker 4: expecting to get divorced, certainly, but that you know, practicality

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Speaker 4: kind of wins out, and that it's just kind of

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Speaker 4: the smart thing to do. A lot of the stigma

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Speaker 4: has resided when it comes to prenups.

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Speaker 2: Part of that has to do with the fact that

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Speaker 2: young folks are getting married later and later in life, right,

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Speaker 2: and so they've built up more assets. So when you

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Speaker 2: get married at twenty six versus thirty six, there's a

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Speaker 2: big difference in kind of what you've been able to

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Speaker 2: achieve in your career. Maybe you've got a rental property

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Speaker 2: or two. You've certainly got more money, hopefully it sucked

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Speaker 2: away in your retirement accounts. So does that kind of

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Speaker 2: change in stage life stage of when people are getting married,

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Speaker 2: does that impact kind of how I don't know how

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Speaker 2: they feel about prenups and their willingness to partake in

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Speaker 2: one totally.

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Speaker 4: That's that is a huge part of the difference. You know,

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Speaker 4: when you look at kind of the difference of last

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Speaker 4: generation in this generation, like you said, it is right

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Speaker 4: about ten years difference in the age that we're getting

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Speaker 4: married in today's day and age than our parents, our grandparents' generation.

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Speaker 4: So you know, in the nineteen sixties, when a couple

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Speaker 4: got married, the average age of marriage was about twenty

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Speaker 4: one years old, and a couple back then had very

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Speaker 4: simple finances, so they were likely to have you know,

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Speaker 4: zero maybe one bank account between the two of them.

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Speaker 4: Credit cards didn't really exist. Four to one k's hadn't

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Speaker 4: been invented yet. You could still work your way through school,

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Speaker 4: so there wasn't kind of the six figures of student

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Speaker 4: loans type situations. So, you know, the couple getting married

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Speaker 4: in you know, say the mid nineteen sixties or nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 4: it was like a startup you know, you're starting from

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Speaker 4: completely from scratch, and two people were coming together and

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Speaker 4: moving in together and building their life together. Whereas you

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Speaker 4: compare that to today's couples who get married on average

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Speaker 4: at age like thirty, and each spouse is likely to

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Speaker 4: have four or five bank accounts, three or four credit cards,

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Speaker 4: a retirement account or two, a car with an against it,

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Speaker 4: maybe a conda with some equity, maybe a small business, right,

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Speaker 4: and so it's so much more complex. You know, if

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Speaker 4: if the couple in the sixties was a startup company,

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Speaker 4: the couple getting married today is like a corporate and merger, right,

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Speaker 4: and you just you wouldn't do something of that magnitude

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Speaker 4: without taking little more seriously and putting some more thought

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Speaker 4: and planning into.

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Speaker 3: It, which I totally get, and I'll readily admit I

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Speaker 3: think that's a part of my own personal bias. The

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Speaker 3: fact that my wife and I we were she was

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Speaker 3: twenty one, we were very young, had basically nothing to

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Speaker 3: our names and everything that we have created, it's something

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Speaker 3: that we did together. Let's we want to talk a

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Speaker 3: little bit about marriage. I guess that's what prenups are

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Speaker 3: all about to a certain extent. But marriage is generally speaking,

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Speaker 3: like you talk about just the legal realities of it.

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Speaker 3: And I'm curious if any part of you just thinks that,

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Speaker 3: like going through the legal marriage process, like, does any

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Speaker 3: part of you feel that that's kind of outdated or

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Speaker 3: that things are better off now that fewer folks are

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Speaker 3: getting married.

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Speaker 1: I'm kind of us to hear your thoughts there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think my I think my views on this

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Speaker 4: have evolved a little bit. You know, I always looked

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Speaker 4: at marriage kind of you know, traditionally. My my parents

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Speaker 4: just celebrated fifty seven years together. My wife's parents are

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Speaker 4: still together, and so, you know, I've always, you know, personally,

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Speaker 4: looked as that marriage is like a lifelong commitment, as

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Speaker 4: a positive thing for society and for myself personally. I'll

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Speaker 4: tell you though, you know, being a divorce lawyer will

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Speaker 4: scare you a little bit when it comes to marriage.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I started practicing family law, you know, many

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Speaker 4: many years ago, and after a few years of watching

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Speaker 4: what divorce really does to people and does to families,

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Speaker 4: I started warning friends and family and anybody who would

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Speaker 4: listen against marriage. You know, I not the commitment. You know, sure,

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Speaker 4: get committed, you know, have a have a big party,

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Speaker 4: wear a white dress, change your last name, move in together,

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Speaker 4: but don't go through the actual legal relationship, you know,

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Speaker 4: the legal step of getting married, because people don't know

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Speaker 4: what they're signing up for, you know what the legal

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Speaker 4: you know, aspect of it is. Obviously, I've you know,

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Speaker 4: changed my view on it. I'm now, you know, happily

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Speaker 4: married myself, and I think that there is a way

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Speaker 4: to do it correctly. I just think that it is

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Speaker 4: much more complex than it used to be.

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Speaker 2: So what are people signing up for that they don't

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Speaker 2: know they're signing up for? Then, I guess, because I

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Speaker 2: think you're right. Like reading your book, thinking through all

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Speaker 2: this stuff, I was like, why do people get married

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Speaker 2: in the first place?

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Speaker 1: Then, and You're like, you're right.

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Speaker 2: Part of me wants wants to say all these other

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Speaker 2: benefits of a lifelong partnership, but why does it have

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Speaker 2: to be marriage, at least in the state specific sense

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Speaker 2: of fact, you're signing up for all these kind of

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Speaker 2: legal obligations.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, So I mean what getting married is and

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Speaker 4: I call it the biggest financial decision that you'll ever make.

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Speaker 4: You know, a lot of people think it's you know,

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Speaker 4: buying a house or starting a business, but getting married

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Speaker 4: touches so many parts of your financial life. It really

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Speaker 4: is the biggest financial decision you'll ever make. And from

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Speaker 4: the day that you get married forward, every dollar that

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Speaker 4: you earn, that very first paycheck that you get after

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Speaker 4: the day of marriage is considered marital property, and so

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Speaker 4: it no longer belongs just to you. Everything belongs to

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Speaker 4: you as a couple. And this it really doesn't matter

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Speaker 4: whose name is on a bank account, whose name is

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Speaker 4: on a piece of property, whose name is on a

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Speaker 4: retirement account or a credit card. It's all considered, you know,

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Speaker 4: one pile of finances from the day that you get married,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of people don't figure that out until

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Speaker 4: they are in you know, unfortunately, a divorced lawyer's office

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Speaker 4: years down the road and they're saying, what do you

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Speaker 4: mean he wants half of my retirement? What do you

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Speaker 4: mean she wants half of the house. I kept it

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Speaker 4: in my name only, and I paid the mortgage review month.

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Speaker 4: And I would have to explain to people that, well,

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Speaker 4: once you were married, that was no longer just your money.

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Speaker 4: It was y'all's money. You can come from the South,

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Speaker 4: it was you know, that's money belonged to the two

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Speaker 4: of you. And so there was a lot of unintended

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Speaker 4: consequence and things that people own prior to marriage getting

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Speaker 4: commingled accidentally, and so you know, people are really in

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Speaker 4: need of like some clarity in terms of what it

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Speaker 4: is they're signing for, signing up for in.

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Speaker 3: Mind, Yeah, I think there probably does need a good

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Speaker 3: bit more counseling pre marital counseling, right where folks do

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Speaker 3: they are able to enter into those relationships with their

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Speaker 3: eyes wide open. And it's interesting too, though, how you've

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Speaker 3: sort of changed your tune a little bit. And I'm

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Speaker 3: curious if you if you're a fan of marriage now

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Speaker 3: that you are happily married, and you're like, well, I've

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Speaker 3: got you know, I got a root for the home team, right,

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Speaker 3: It's so there's that, But then I'm curious too, have

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Speaker 3: you seen the Melissa Kearney. She's an economist and a

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Speaker 3: lot of research has come out recently regarding just the

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Speaker 3: power the advantage that two parent households have in particular

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Speaker 3: when it comes to raising up children. Right, it's and

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Speaker 3: it's not only it's not only like a financial advantage,

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Speaker 3: it's also kids don't get in trouble at school, they're

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Speaker 3: less likely to be arrested, they're they're more likely to

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Speaker 3: actually complete school. So some of those behavioral issues kind

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Speaker 3: of melts away a little bit as well, because I

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Speaker 3: feel like that, you know, faced with this new research

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Speaker 3: and data, which surprisingly there hasn't been a ton of

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Speaker 3: up until recently, it kind of, in my mind, puts

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Speaker 3: marriage in particular in a new light. What are your

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Speaker 3: Do you have any thoughts on that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Absolutely, Yeah, And I am familiar with Kearney's work,

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Speaker 4: the new book about the two parent household and all

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Speaker 4: the advantages that come from that. I mean, I think

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Speaker 4: a lot of this we know kind of anecdotally and

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Speaker 4: intuitively how many advantages there are, but seeing the data,

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Speaker 4: it really is compelling. And you know, my kind of

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Speaker 4: reluctance when it came to marriage didn't have anything to

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Speaker 4: do with you know, being scared of the lifelong commitment

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Speaker 4: and all the advantages that come from an intact household.

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Speaker 4: I wanted those things for myself. It was really fear

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Speaker 4: of messing it up. It was fear of ending up

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Speaker 4: in a divorce. And you know, in my view, a

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Speaker 4: messy divorce was best avoided at pretty much any cost.

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Speaker 4: You know, I don't think that's that controversial for a

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Speaker 4: statement to say that you should do whatever you can

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Speaker 4: to avoid a messy divorce. And you know, there's two

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Speaker 4: ways to do it right. One is not to get married,

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Speaker 4: and two is trying to try very very hard to

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Speaker 4: keep your marriage together. And then you know a third

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Speaker 4: would be, you know, put yourself in a position so

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Speaker 4: that if your marriage does come to an end that

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Speaker 4: it is not kind of the expensive nightmare year and

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Speaker 4: a half of litigation in a very public courtroom that

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Speaker 4: I witnessed as you know, a divorce litigator.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now, I mean the older I get, the more I've

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Speaker 2: seen couples that I thought I would have like bet

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Speaker 2: money early on, there's no way that that marriage is

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Speaker 2: going to dissolve, and things happen right, and it's it's

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Speaker 2: really sad to watch as a friend but it's also

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Speaker 2: sobering right to say, like I'm doing my best here

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Speaker 2: in my marriage, but and I'm hoping and praying right

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Speaker 2: that like we're able to stick it out for the

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Speaker 2: long run, just like that's what you want, Aaron, But

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Speaker 2: you also see the sad reality of kind of what

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Speaker 2: happens in our culture. And it's not half of divorces,

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Speaker 2: but it's somewhere close to half of marriage is to

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Speaker 2: end in divorce. So I guess my question to you

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Speaker 2: is what do you do on the front end, right

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Speaker 2: the getting financially naked sort of thing, at the very beginning,

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Speaker 2: What sort of things need to be discussed as you're dating,

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Speaker 2: as you're like working towards engagement, thinking about marriage, starting

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Speaker 2: to talk about that stuff. What needs to be put

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Speaker 2: on the table on the front end.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, great question, I am. And that's where you

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Speaker 4: have to start, is at the very beginning, you know,

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Speaker 4: before you even get married. And I am an advocate

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Speaker 4: of full disclosure. Due diligence is what a lawyer might

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Speaker 4: call it. Right where you get completely, you know, financially

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Speaker 4: naked with your spouse, which is sometimes more difficult than

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Speaker 4: getting physically naked with your partner. But by literally putting

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Speaker 4: everything on the table in writing in black and white.

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Speaker 4: That means creating a net worth statement for yourself and

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Speaker 4: for your spouse so that there are no surprises trading

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Speaker 4: that information. And I find that just that step alone,

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Speaker 4: you know, number one, it's something that a lot of

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Speaker 4: couples haven't done because there's there's no kind of natural

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Speaker 4: time to say, hey, by the way, i've got twenty

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Speaker 4: grand a credit card debt, or you know, I haven't

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Speaker 4: saved as much for a retirement and as I wish

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Speaker 4: I had. But it's kind of you know, you get

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Speaker 4: a little bit of an amnesty because Okay, we're planning

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Speaker 4: our life together. We need to you know, be completely

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Speaker 4: transparent in terms of what we're bringing in. But it

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Speaker 4: will also spawn what I think are very necessary conversations

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Speaker 4: about your habits. You know, how you view money, what

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Speaker 4: your kind of relationship was money growing up in your household.

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Speaker 4: You know, do you like to carry debt on credit cards?

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Speaker 4: Do you pay everything off you know month to month?

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Speaker 4: What's your investment strategy? And you know, we talked about

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Speaker 4: how much more complex people's finances are when they get married,

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Speaker 4: because we're getting married older But the other aspect of

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Speaker 4: that is we're coming in with a decade or more

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Speaker 4: of financial habits that we've built up on our own

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Speaker 4: since we left our parents' household, and sometimes that can

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Speaker 4: be the more tricky thing to combine than just the

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Speaker 4: bank accounts and the credit cards.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean kind of, I guess on that note,

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Speaker 3: this is kind of earlier on in your book, But

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Speaker 3: you say the financial dynamics within a marriage actually dictate

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Speaker 3: the personal dynamics of that marriage.

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Speaker 1: Can you talk about that for a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Yes, The you know, how your your financial structure is

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Speaker 4: set up can say a lot about what your marriage

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Speaker 4: looks like. And so, you know, I'll give you an example.

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Speaker 4: You know, I did a divorce for a couple where

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Speaker 4: the husband worked, had a good job, made you know,

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Speaker 4: two and a grand year, and his wife was home

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Speaker 4: helping raise their two children. And he made that kind

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Speaker 4: of money, he made two hund a grand a year,

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Speaker 4: and he gave her an allowance of three hundred dollars

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Speaker 4: a month. And without knowing anything else about that couple,

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Speaker 4: you could probably intuit some other aspects of their relationship.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, allowance.

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Speaker 2: When we're talking about a husband spouse relationship there right

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Speaker 2: exactly exactly.

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Speaker 4: I mean, there was this really unequal power dynamic. She

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Speaker 4: felt powerless, she felt trapped. He was lording over her.

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Speaker 4: And you know, there's one thing that I've learned, it's,

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Speaker 4: you know, two spouses living in the same household but

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Speaker 4: in different socioeconomic classes is a recipe for disaster. That is,

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Speaker 4: that is not going to work.

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Speaker 3: It feels so weird, even just the way, I mean,

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Speaker 3: everything about what you said about that couple, yeah, felt bad.

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Speaker 3: The allowance, the actual amounts, the fact that there might

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Speaker 3: be a couple and they're in essentially different classes does

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Speaker 3: not It's gonna breed resentment. Something about that doesn't seem

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Speaker 3: real quick for sure.

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Speaker 2: I know too that you talk about how different states

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Speaker 2: have different rules when it comes to marriage and when

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Speaker 2: it comes to divorce. And one of the things actually

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Speaker 2: that brought me because I came into this conversation a

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Speaker 2: little more skeptical about prenups, But one of the things

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Speaker 2: that brought me around the most was that you basically

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Speaker 2: argue for the fact that we all have a prenup

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Speaker 2: even if we didn't sign one, and it's the divorce

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Speaker 2: laws in our state. It's the default essentially that we're

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Speaker 2: going to come up against no matter what.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know.

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Speaker 2: It seems to me that coming up with our own

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Speaker 2: bespoke prenup is just way to create a more set,

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Speaker 2: fair set of rules than just kind of throwing caution

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Speaker 2: to the wind whatever my state dictates or whatever. Like

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Speaker 2: talk to us two about this. In many states, it

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Speaker 2: can be like what the judge had for breakfast, how

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Speaker 2: they're feeling that day, how they determines, how they rule,

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Speaker 2: and how the assets get split out.

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Speaker 4: That's absolutely correct. And you know, if we define a

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Speaker 4: prenup for a moment, you know, a prenup is really

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Speaker 4: just it's a set of rules that dictates how your

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Speaker 4: finances are treated, yes, in the event of divorce, but

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Speaker 4: also during the marriage itself. But when it comes to

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Speaker 4: you know, the possible end of your marriage and the

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Speaker 4: division of assets, you are signing up for whatever your

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Speaker 4: state's laws happen to be, and if you move, your

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Speaker 4: contract has changed. And very few of us, if any

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Speaker 4: of us, read the quote unquote contract the default prenup

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Speaker 4: meaning the law because of your state as it pertains

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Speaker 4: to your assets. Prior to getting married. Almost everyone only

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Speaker 4: figured these things out in the context of a divorce,

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Speaker 4: and so I think that the real there is real

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Speaker 4: power in deciding what works for you and your spouse

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Speaker 4: and your marriage based on where you are in your life,

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Speaker 4: rather than accepting this kind of one size fits all,

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Speaker 4: cookie cutter approach. And you are putting yourself in the hands,

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Speaker 4: potentially where of a judge who is randomly assigned to

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Speaker 4: your case, who could have views on life and marriage

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Speaker 4: and family and money very very different from yours. And

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Speaker 4: I have seen firsthand, you know, situations where you walk

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Speaker 4: into one courtroom and one judge looks at the situation

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Speaker 4: that says, well, you aren't all the money, and what

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Speaker 4: did you do? So, yeah, you're gonna get eighty percent

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Speaker 4: of the assets. And you go to the very next

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Speaker 4: courtroom down the hall and a judge says, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to split everything in this in this case fifty to fifty,

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Speaker 4: no matter what, and that that kind of uncertainty is

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Speaker 4: just unnecessary. When you can choose your your own rules

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Speaker 4: and kind of voluntary commit yourself to a situation that

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Speaker 4: you and your spouse personally agree.

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Speaker 1: To, it makes a lot of sense. I think you're

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Speaker 1: making a good case for it.

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Speaker 3: Aaron, you know, like the ability to have rules that

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Speaker 3: you know that you're playing by ahead of time.

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Speaker 1: I think that can always be helpful.

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Speaker 3: It makes me think of like sitting down and play

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Speaker 3: play one of the nerdy board games that we play,

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Speaker 3: and then like all of a sudden.

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Speaker 1: Halfway through the game, the rules shift.

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Speaker 3: Well, that wouldn't be cool, yeah, But being able to

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Speaker 3: agree to a set list of rules, I guess it

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Speaker 3: makes a whole lot of sense. And we're gonna continue

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Speaker 3: talking here right after the break. We're gonna ask you

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Speaker 3: some more specifics about pre nups, what it is that

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Speaker 3: they govern, how they work.

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Speaker 1: We'll get to all of that right after this.

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Speaker 3: All right, we're back from the break.

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Speaker 2: We're still talking about pre nups pre nuptial agreements, and

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Speaker 2: we've got expert Aaron Thomas with us here to dive

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Speaker 2: into the details.

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Speaker 1: And again.

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Speaker 2: Us something I've been a little skeptical, but man, I

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Speaker 2: really am kind of coming around, as you know, listening

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Speaker 2: to Aaron talking and just reading his book has really

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Speaker 2: kind of shone some light on the necessity of prenups

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Speaker 2: in so many cases.

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Speaker 1: But Aaron, I have this question for you.

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Speaker 2: Does the process of getting a prenup does it ever

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Speaker 2: come back to bite couples, right, because I guess part

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Speaker 2: of my reason for not loving prenups as a way

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Speaker 2: forward is, I don't know, maybe it starts off your

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Speaker 2: marriage in this adversarial process. Is that like you're trying

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Speaker 2: to protect what's yours, it could come across as selfish

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Speaker 2: or a road trust in that relationship. Does does just

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Speaker 2: the act of getting a prenup ever kind of result

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Speaker 2: in a failed relationship?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, great question. I think that a lot

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Speaker 4: of it comes down to your approach, right, And I

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Speaker 4: will be the first to concede that some of the

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Speaker 4: bad reputation that prenups have is deserved, right, because there

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Speaker 4: are a lot of people who have used pre nups

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Speaker 4: to kind of solidify a disparity in wealth, to solidify

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Speaker 4: a disparity in access to finances over the course of

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Speaker 4: the relationship. You know, prenup is really a contract like

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Speaker 4: any other contract. There can be good terms that are

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Speaker 4: you know, that are great for your relationship, or there

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Speaker 4: can be bad terms that are a huge red flag.

437
00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 4: So a lot of it is in your approach. I

438
00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:20,800
Speaker 4: think that you know, if if it is done as

439
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,119
Speaker 4: a collaborative process where you and your partner come together

440
00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 4: and sit down and talk about what do you want

441
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:29,960
Speaker 4: your financial marriage to look like? You know, should you

442
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,840
Speaker 4: be transparent on the front end? Should you both have

443
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 4: equal access to money during the relationship? Do you both

444
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,480
Speaker 4: have a say in kind of spending and investment decisions

445
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,680
Speaker 4: that and it? Can you agree what would be fair

446
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 4: if you know, God forbid the relationship comes to end.

447
00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 4: Can we agree will be fair while we love each other,

448
00:21:49,920 --> 00:21:53,480
Speaker 4: while communication is high, while we trust each other, then

449
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:55,959
Speaker 4: it can be a real positive for your relationship. If

450
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,200
Speaker 4: the only thing you're doing is protecting what you had

451
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 4: from your spouse going in, then yeah, I can see

452
00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 4: that having a negative impact on your relationship. So you

453
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 4: know the devil's in this.

454
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 3: That's when it seems like the terms are bad, right

455
00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:11,879
Speaker 3: because if it's only there to protect you, it seems

456
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 3: fairly one sided. But I guess, like my thoughts are,

457
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,600
Speaker 3: if you can agree to these terms, then is it

458
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 3: necessary to have them down in a contract. Because a

459
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: lot of what you actually talk about in your book,

460
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,080
Speaker 3: just the actual prescription part of the prenup are great

461
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,479
Speaker 3: things that we recommend for folks to do all the time. Right,

462
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 3: Like you're talking about making financial goals for yourselves. You're

463
00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 3: talking about how it is that you're going to achieve

464
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 3: those things. It's establishing healthy communication. It's just that you

465
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,360
Speaker 3: are doing it inside the bounds of a contract as

466
00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,359
Speaker 3: opposed to, I guess, just a conversation that, in my

467
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 3: mind feels less I don't know, less loving, I don't.

468
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 3: I guess when you think about it from the standpoint

469
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 3: of counseling or goal setting or a couple's retreat, it's

470
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 3: to me that it seems more edifying as opposed to

471
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:58,680
Speaker 3: the contract.

472
00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,080
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, so I think there are a couple aspects

473
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 4: to you know, putting in writing that give it a

474
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 4: market benefit over just having the conversation.

475
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:08,800
Speaker 1: You know.

476
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 4: One is it's legally enforceable, right, that may be obvious.

477
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 4: But locking yourself the same way that you can kind

478
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,440
Speaker 4: of lock yourself in to, you know, a disparity in

479
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 4: net worth or wealth with a prenup, you can lock

480
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 4: yourself into a fair situation as well and really kind

481
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 4: of protect yourself against your future self or your spouse's

482
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 4: future self. There are many people who would agree, yeah,

483
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 4: you know, we're in this together. Everything we're doing is

484
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:37,440
Speaker 4: fifty to fifty on the front end. Unfortunately, you know,

485
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 4: when marriages dissolve, people are no longer in that same headspace,

486
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 4: and they're much more likely to act out of anger

487
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 4: and think you know that they should be you know,

488
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 4: shooting for the majority of the assets. And there's also

489
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 4: kind of this this weird thing that I've noticed even

490
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 4: in you know, good relationships like mine. You know, if

491
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 4: you're in a relationship and each of you are doing

492
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 4: fifty percent of the work, percent of the labor in

493
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 4: the relationship, it feels like you're doing seventy percent of

494
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 4: the work, right because because we only see what we

495
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 4: ourselves are doing. You know, I don't see what my

496
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 4: wife is doing when I'm not around, so it feels like, yeah, right, right, right,

497
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,879
Speaker 4: But you didn't you didn't see me take out the trash.

498
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 4: So you know, I think that there's you know, a

499
00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 4: protective mechanism there. And also, you know, putting in writing,

500
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 4: you know, there's something about making it formal, making the

501
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,400
Speaker 4: process formal. One you've got something you can look back

502
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 4: on and say, hey, you know, we agreed, for example,

503
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 4: that we're going to sit down, you know, once a year,

504
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 4: we're going to make sure that we've disclosed all rassets

505
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: and debts and updates, and we're going to go through

506
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 4: an agenda of things and talk about, you know, our

507
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 4: spending from last year and where there any surprises, and

508
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 4: you know, what do we want to plan for next year?

509
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 4: Should we put away some money for travel or is

510
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 4: this year that we you know, buy an investment property?

511
00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 4: And having that in writing, you know, reduces or eliminates

512
00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,719
Speaker 4: any confusion about what you agreed to on the front end.

513
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:02,639
Speaker 4: But there's also the ceremony of it as well, you know,

514
00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,520
Speaker 4: I mean, we we do do vows when we get married.

515
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 4: We walk down and we pronounce what we want to

516
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 4: do in front of everyone that we know, and there

517
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 4: is real power in the ceremony of it. The same

518
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 4: way as putting something down on paper and you know,

519
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,239
Speaker 4: taking ink you know, to the page and putting your

520
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 4: signature on it and saying this is what I'm willing

521
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 4: to commit to in writing, that I think makes people

522
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 4: want to stick to it. It gives them clarity and

523
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 4: they know that you know, you can't go back on it,

524
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 4: you can't change your mind. We've committed to this in writing,

525
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 4: and it's going to be enforceable.

526
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 2: Sense of protection as well, right for both for both parties.

527
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 2: You talked recently about Michael Jordan's prenup with his wife.

528
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 2: I'm curious to hear can you like tell us about

529
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: that structure a little? But I also want to know,

530
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 2: right if you think that like normal folks, non famous,

531
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,920
Speaker 2: non wealthy people, do they need like a similar sort

532
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: of prenup or like, uh, yeah, how should people think

533
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 2: about that? I think the most famous stories are often

534
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: ones of the rich and famous, but is that what

535
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: our prenups should kind of look like too?

536
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah, So I will put this caveat out there

537
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 4: that you know, when people hear about the celebrity prenups,

538
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 4: you know that is part of what creates a lot

539
00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 4: of the misconceptions because you're going to hear it and

540
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 4: you're gonna think this has nothing to do with me.

541
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,520
Speaker 4: You know, Michael Jordan has a prenup with his current spouse.

542
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 4: He went through his first divorce with his with his

543
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,200
Speaker 4: first wife and paid out a settlement of one hundred

544
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:26,959
Speaker 4: and seventy eight million dollars.

545
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: I believe a lot of money.

546
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 2: It is a lot of money, and I guess he's

547
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,920
Speaker 2: a billionaire. So we're you know, we're talking in in

548
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: terms of percentages. Still he's keeping the majority of.

549
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 1: A lot of money. Yeah, a lot of money.

550
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's it is relative. But you know, one

551
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 4: hundred and seventy eight million is a pretty penny no

552
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 4: matter what. And so with his current spouse, they have

553
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 4: a prenup that says, you know, for the first you know,

554
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 4: ten years of the marriage, if the marriage were to

555
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 4: come to in end, she receives a million dollars per

556
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 4: year of the marriage. And if the marriage gets to

557
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 4: the tenure market and goes beyond that, every year of

558
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 4: marriage becomes worth five million dollars. And you know, people

559
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 4: hear it and they may have some kind of visceral

560
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 4: reaction to it. I think it is something that for

561
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 4: them was probably fair. It probably works for them because

562
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 4: Michael Jordan gets the knowledge that he is going to have,

563
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 4: you know, the protection for his assets, which you know,

564
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 4: trying to value interests in Nike and you know NBA

565
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 4: teams and clothing lines would be a nightmare disaster. I

566
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 4: mean you're talking about multi year litigation that he'd be

567
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 4: drawn up in, you know, regardless of the amount of

568
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 4: payout that it would eventually come. And for his wife,

569
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 4: I think she gets some protection of knowing, you know,

570
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 4: if anything happens, I'm going to receive enough money that

571
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 4: you know, I can I can take care of myself.

572
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 4: You know, she is giving up, you know, kind of

573
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 4: her privacy for life by being married to one of

574
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 4: the most recognizable athletes on the planet. And you know,

575
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 4: you know, other people may have their own, you know,

576
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 4: views on you know how much it's worth, and it

577
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 4: feels very you know, so you can feel a little

578
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 4: icky because it feels very economic. But it is something

579
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 4: that for them gives them both a sense of security

580
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 4: that they clearly wanted. And so while that kind of

581
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,960
Speaker 4: prenup is likely not going to work for you or me,

582
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 4: it is something that I think does work for their situation.

583
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 2: Okay, let's talk about I don't want my wife getting

584
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: hundreds of millions, you know, like, although that's not gonna happen,

585
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 2: that don't happen. But Eric, I wanted to talk about,

586
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: I guess the structure of prenups because like they're not

587
00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: just about dividing up assets when the divorce papers are signed, right, Like,

588
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 2: there are other like non compliance and trigger clauses. There

589
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,240
Speaker 2: are contingencies that you can include can you share some

590
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: of the different examples.

591
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, So, you know, I kind of look

592
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 4: at it in three stages.

593
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 1: You know.

594
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 4: The first is kind of before the marriage, so that's

595
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 4: the transparency aspect of putting everything down in a net

596
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 4: worth statement. Then you have during the marriage, and then

597
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,800
Speaker 4: finally you've got you know, uh, you can call it

598
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 4: end of marriage. I call it akad the contingency compations

599
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 4: with might, which might be a euphemism. But during the

600
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 4: marriage itself, I think, you know, the first step is

601
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 4: to talk about how you're setting up your bank accounts,

602
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 4: and you know, not the same thing isn't gonna work

603
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 4: for every couple. But what I recommend is having kind

604
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:17,320
Speaker 4: of three categories or three buckets of accounts mine, yours,

605
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 4: and hours and sitting down and thinking through what qualifies

606
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 4: as a joint expense for us. You know, so for

607
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 4: most couples, their mortgage or their rent, their utilities, their

608
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 4: grocery bill, the meals they eat out together, insurance, those

609
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 4: things are gonna fall, you know, pretty squarely into the

610
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 4: hour's bucket. And then there are things that you know,

611
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 4: I think can clearly fall into these separate buckets, you know,

612
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 4: things that you could pay from your own spending money.

613
00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 4: So if I go, you know, out and have a

614
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 4: meal with my buddies and wife's not there, that's something

615
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 4: I would pay for my own expenses. And what that

616
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 4: does for a lot of couples today who are getting

617
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 4: married later in life. You can know that the joint

618
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 4: expenses are being paid, but you also maintain some level

619
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 4: of autonomy over your own spending and don't feel like

620
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 4: every time you stop by Chick Gilay is being scrutinized

621
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 4: by your spouse because it's coming out of you know,

622
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 4: the joint bank account. And setting things up in that way,

623
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 4: I think can prevent a lot of arguments over things

624
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 4: that are otherwise, you know, unnecessary. There's a couple different

625
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 4: ways that people will do it. My wife and I

626
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 4: do what's called the inside out plan, where all of

627
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 4: the income for the household goes into our joint account initially,

628
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 4: and then we each get an allotment or disbursement from

629
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 4: that allowance, if you will, but it's equal amounts for

630
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 4: both of us that comes out of that joint account

631
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 4: and goes into our separate accounts that we can spend,

632
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 4: you know, without any oversight of our spouse, and I

633
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,920
Speaker 4: think that's helpful, you know, in my situation. It allows

634
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:49,560
Speaker 4: us to do some spending that our spouse might not

635
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 4: agree with, you know, without having to worry about it.

636
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 4: You know, like I like to get my daughter, you know, nikes,

637
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 4: even though she's gonna outgrow them, you know, in three months,

638
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 4: and my wife probably wouldn't spend the money on those

639
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 4: kinds of shoes, but I get to do because it

640
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 4: came out of my money. And my wife has similar

641
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 4: things that she would spend that I might see, as

642
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 4: you know, potentially frivolous, but she can do it because

643
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 4: she's spending it from her money. And then when it

644
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 4: comes to the joint account, we have a rule that

645
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 4: says neither one of us can spend more than five

646
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 4: hundred dollars from the joint account without without agreement from

647
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 4: the other spouse. And you know, some people say, oh,

648
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 4: you got to get permission, you know, from your wife,

649
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 4: and I don't look at it like that. I look

650
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,959
Speaker 4: at it as a mutual respect thing.

651
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:26,280
Speaker 1: You know.

652
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 4: If I'm spending learn from the joint account, that is

653
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,960
Speaker 4: something that impacts my wife. She needs to know about it.

654
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 4: And you know, rarely are we going to say no,

655
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 4: but it is something that we've ingrained into our relationship.

656
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 4: You know, this practice, this habit of communication that I

657
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 4: think yields benefits in other areas of the relationship as well.

658
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: And that just makes sense.

659
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 3: I mean, having those larger expenses is kind of like

660
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 3: having a couple sets of keys or whatever, like the

661
00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:50,720
Speaker 3: to the nukes. You know, it's not just up to

662
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,600
Speaker 3: one person to make the decision. It's like, this impacts

663
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 3: a lot more folks, and we make sure you need

664
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 3: to make sure that there's a review process here. We

665
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 3: need to make sure everyone's on board at at the

666
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 3: same time. You simultaneously go there and turn those keys

667
00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 3: at the same time. I think that can be healthy

668
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 3: for sure. I think one of the other things Aaron

669
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 3: that really kind of put me more on on board

670
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 3: with with your argument was was how much money a

671
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 3: prenup can save you. So, yeah, a prenup costs money

672
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: on the front end, and you got to go through

673
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: that setup process. But from everything I've I've heard, divorce

674
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: is just about one of the hardest things you can endure.

675
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 3: And even if your marriage ends amicably, it can be

676
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 3: it can be a really difficult process. Even if you're

677
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 3: still and still remain friendly. But how how bad can

678
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 3: a divorce be for your finances? And like a ton

679
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 3: of lawyers fees stuff like that. And how much is

680
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 3: that pre nup although it's you know, cost some money

681
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: in the beginning, how much can that potentially save you?

682
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm glad you asked this. You know,

683
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 4: the cost of a pre nup, you know, is usually

684
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 4: going to be around a few grand. You know, my

685
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 4: office doesn't for you know, flat fee of thirty five hundred,

686
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 4: which is pretty going to be pretty standard. And a

687
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 4: divorce case last, first of all, it lasts on average

688
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 4: a year that was creeping up to closer to eighteen

689
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 4: months during the pandemic with some of the delays in

690
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 4: the courthouses. And the average cost is fifteen thousand dollars

691
00:33:09,880 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 4: per spouse. It means a lot of people pay a

692
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 4: whole lot more than that, So you know, if you're

693
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 4: talking about thirty grand for a couple, you know, and

694
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 4: there are certainly cases that go into you know, the

695
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 4: hundreds of thousands. I've worked on a case before where

696
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,680
Speaker 4: just our client alone paid over a million dollars in

697
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 4: fees over the course of four years. Of litigation, and

698
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 4: the way that it kind of works is the more

699
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 4: money that you have at the time of the divorce,

700
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,880
Speaker 4: the more likely you know your divorce is going to

701
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 4: be more expensive itself, because if you think that, you know,

702
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 4: taking your case to court can win you two thirds

703
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 4: of the assets instead of half, the more money you have,

704
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 4: the more it's worth to spend that money on the

705
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 4: lawyers to get you there. And so a lot of people,

706
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 4: you know, this is important when it comes to a

707
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 4: lot of people say well, I don't need a print

708
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 4: on because we don't have anything. Well that's coming into

709
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 4: the marriage. What makes the divorce expensive is what you've

710
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:02,240
Speaker 4: got on the back end, which you can't know, you know,

711
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 4: until you get there.

712
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 3: And your goal is probably you're going to have Yeah,

713
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 3: you're going to continue to throw your net worth and

714
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 3: you will have yeah.

715
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,799
Speaker 2: Actually, like if you're taking a vowel of poverty, then

716
00:34:10,840 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: maybe you two don't need to But okay, another question

717
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 2: for you on that front. So when we're talking about lawyers,

718
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,280
Speaker 2: typically an individual hires a lawyer to represent their interests.

719
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 2: The when when we're talking about a couple who are

720
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: going into this marriage, they have a lot of the

721
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: same interests, but they also have individual things to protect.

722
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 2: Do They each need to hire their own lawyer to

723
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:32,480
Speaker 2: get this to get this prenup done.

724
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 4: So a lawyer can Yeah, a lawyer can only represent

725
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 4: one side of a transaction. In most states in the US,

726
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 4: it's not required that the second spouse hire their own lawyer,

727
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 4: but they have to have had an opportunity to hire

728
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 4: a lawyer. So that means, you know, not doing it

729
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 4: at the last minute, making sure that there's money there

730
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,760
Speaker 4: for both people to hire their own attorney. Me personally,

731
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 4: I will never discourage someone from having a lawyer on

732
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 4: the other side of this kind of transaction because you

733
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 4: need to talk about you know what your fears are,

734
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 4: you know what keeps you up at night, you know

735
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 4: what worries you when it comes to, you know, making

736
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 4: these kinds of decisions about what your financial life with

737
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 4: your spouse looks like, and have somebody that can advise

738
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 4: you just from your point of view. So certainly it

739
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 4: should not be adversariable. You don't want to get into

740
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 4: a situation where it's a lot of back and forth.

741
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 4: You know, most of my clients will kind of, you know,

742
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 4: waive their attorney client privilege, so that everything that I

743
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 4: talk to them about is shared with their spouse, so

744
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 4: everything's done out in the open. This ideally should be

745
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 4: a collaborative process. You don't want, you know, you don't

746
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 4: draft an agreement and hand it to somebody a week

747
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,400
Speaker 4: before the marriage. That's you know, icky thing to do.

748
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 4: It's not fair and it's not the right way to

749
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 4: start off a relationship that you hope will last forever.

750
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 4: But legally.

751
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,919
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, according to your book, judge might even deem

752
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 3: that to be unconscionable.

753
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 4: Yes, a judge is likely to throw it out if

754
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 4: you try to that last minute again.

755
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 2: Anyway, All right, eron, we got a few more questions

756
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: to get to with you, including what if you're already married.

757
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 2: There's such a thing as post nups. Should should all

758
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: of us married folks be be considering that? Well, we'll

759
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: get to questions on that and more right after this.

760
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: We are back from the break.

761
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 3: We're talking about how pre nups are for lovers, and

762
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,640
Speaker 3: we are talking with Aaron Thomas.

763
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: Aaron, in your.

764
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,719
Speaker 3: Book, you devote an entire chapter actually to the title

765
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 3: of that chapter was tact timing and talk and uh,

766
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: you know, prenups. They can obviously be a touchy topic

767
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 3: for a newly in love couple. But what are some

768
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:47,400
Speaker 3: ways that they could start talking about pre nups without

769
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: completely ending the relationship.

770
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, great question. Yeah, it's it's important one, right because

771
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,319
Speaker 4: you know, we know that if a lot of people

772
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 4: go to their their loved one and say, hey, babe,

773
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 4: I want to prenup, the reaction might not be the

774
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 4: most positive. And so, you know, the advice I give

775
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 4: might be a little bit counterintuitive, and but it is,

776
00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 4: don't lead with the word prenup. I think we all

777
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 4: can admit that that word carries a lot of you know,

778
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,200
Speaker 4: it's kind of heavy. But instead kind of leading with

779
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 4: what it is that you want to accomplish. I have

780
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 4: found that most people don't object to the the you know,

781
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,920
Speaker 4: the terms of the prenup itself as much as they

782
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 4: do the the word prenup or the idea of a prenup.

783
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,320
Speaker 4: And so you know, if you start with kind of

784
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 4: the component parts, you know, Uh, I think that we

785
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: should be transparent. I think that we should write down

786
00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 4: all of our assets and debts and share it with

787
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 4: each other. I think that it's a good idea for

788
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 4: us to decide how we want to set up our

789
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:48,640
Speaker 4: bank accounts and how the money is going to flow,

790
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 4: you know, through our joint bank accounts and our separate

791
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 4: bank accounts. I think we should have kind of some

792
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 4: ground rules for spending and budgeting and saving. Uh, you know,

793
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 4: can we agree that if either of just wants to

794
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,160
Speaker 4: go to counseling, that we're going to go to counseling,

795
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 4: no questions asked. Can we agree on, you know, an

796
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 4: annual meeting where we discuss and update each other on,

797
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,279
Speaker 4: you know, our financial lives and make sure that things

798
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 4: are still working because you can't just set it and

799
00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 4: forget it for life, right? And then yes, can we

800
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 4: talk about, you know, God forbid if things came to

801
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 4: an end? Can we agree what would be a fair

802
00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 4: way to you know, have our our money split up

803
00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 4: that we decide and that you know, keeps us from

804
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 4: spending a year or two in a courtroom slinging mud

805
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 4: at each other and making lawyers rich instead of doing

806
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 4: what is best for the two of us. And if

807
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 4: you can agree on those kinds of things, then what

808
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 4: you're talking about is really the same thing as as

809
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 4: getting a prenup. Even if you know the the word

810
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 4: doesn't reflect that in your mind when you first hear it.

811
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:55,399
Speaker 2: My wife and I can definitely agree on not making

812
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: lawyers rich, by the way, that's something we can come together.

813
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: As you're talking to a lawyer, right.

814
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: Sorry, sorry, Well one of the things you talk about too,

815
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 3: is to do this sooner rather than later. You kind

816
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: of touched on this earlier, but kind of explain why

817
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 3: this is better to do essentially ahead of time as

818
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:16,239
Speaker 3: opposed to after the fact.

819
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 4: Yeah. So there's there's a couple of reasons, you know.

820
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 4: One is it is so much easier when you were

821
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:26,959
Speaker 4: talking about potential issues that could come up as a hypothetical.

822
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,239
Speaker 4: You know, it's much easier to say, okay, you know,

823
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 4: can we agree that if family members ask for money

824
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,840
Speaker 4: that you know, we're going to limit it to one

825
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 4: thousand dollars, you know, as a contribution, and we both

826
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 4: got to agree. Or spending limits, you know from the

827
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 4: joint bank account. Those are easy things to agree to,

828
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 4: or easier when they are a concept rather than when

829
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 4: something has you know, has happened and it feels punitive

830
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,080
Speaker 4: because they're saying, oh, you spent five hundred dollars from

831
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 4: now on, you can't you know, you can't touch the

832
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 4: joint account without my approval. That tends to be the

833
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 4: wrong time to, you know, have these kinds of discussions.

834
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 4: And given you know how important your financial life is

835
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 4: to your marriage, I mean, I think you guys would

836
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 4: probably recognize given your industry that you know, the fights

837
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 4: over money is one of, if not the biggest reasons

838
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 4: that couples break up. And so you know, being aligned

839
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 4: when it comes to your finances is mission critical to

840
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 4: the success of your marriage. And so this is something

841
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 4: that has to be done with a lot of forethought.

842
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,759
Speaker 4: You've got to give it more time then you do

843
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 4: the guest list for your wedding. You know, this deserves

844
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 4: the kind of import that you would give any other

845
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 4: major decision in your life, like starting a business or

846
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 4: buying a home. If you agree that getting married is

847
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 4: one of the biggest financial decisions you'll ever make, then

848
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 4: you've got it. You've got to give it at least

849
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:52,760
Speaker 4: as much forethought.

850
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:54,839
Speaker 2: All right, So let's talk to the folks out there

851
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: who are currently married, right, and so neither Matt nor

852
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 2: I have prenups in our marriages with our wives. Is

853
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: that is that something like it's called the post up, right,

854
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: So is that something that more people should be considering

855
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 2: And how do you approach that because that seems like

856
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: it's maybe an even more delicate conversation, especially since we

857
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,839
Speaker 2: just like my wife and I just celebrated thirteen years,

858
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 2: that's a long time kind of considering everything equal for ourselves.

859
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 2: Do we need to put something down in writing? How

860
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: do you talk to people who are currently married about

861
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:23,760
Speaker 2: this idea.

862
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's there's a few instances when people will consider

863
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 4: getting a post up. You know. The first kind is

864
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 4: kind of simple. You know, somebody who wanted to get

865
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 4: a prenup, but they maybe got caught up in wedding

866
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 4: planning or they drugg their feet a little bit, and

867
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 4: you know, it's knuck up on them, and so they

868
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 4: are doing it after the date of the wedding. That's

869
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,759
Speaker 4: still you know, considered a post up. There are other

870
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 4: situations where people so to speak, read the contract of

871
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 4: marriage years into their marriage and they realize that they've

872
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,239
Speaker 4: been living a way that is different than the law

873
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 4: would treat their finances. So, you know, there are couples

874
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 4: who have gotten married and decided okay, you know, I

875
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 4: you know, had a rental property coming in and you

876
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 4: had a house coming in, and I'm gonna pay for

877
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 4: my property, You're gonna pay for your property, and we're

878
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 4: gonna keep those things separate. And then they're married for

879
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 4: a little while and they recognize that a court is

880
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 4: not going to honor that kind of informal agreement between

881
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:11,920
Speaker 4: the spouses and they want to just go ahead and

882
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 4: put it in place, or protect each other from debts

883
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 4: or when you know, one spouse has a business and

884
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 4: they want to make sure that that's kind of outside

885
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 4: of the marital estate, both in terms of, you know,

886
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 4: the value of it as well as the debts or

887
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 4: potential liabilities of it. And there are some couples who,

888
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 4: you know, they're on the ropes and they want to

889
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,800
Speaker 4: give it another go, but they've had financial issues that

890
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 4: are part of their problem, and they want to correct

891
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 4: it with a prenup that defines, you know, kind of

892
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 4: their access to money so they're not in that kind

893
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 4: of situation where one spouse makes two undred grand the

894
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 4: other one has a three hundred allouns. They want to

895
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 4: fix some of the problems that I've gotten them to

896
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 4: this space while also saying, all right, if things don't

897
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 4: work out, can we agree now it's Fairwell, we've still

898
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 4: got some communication and some trust alive, so that we

899
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 4: don't end up in a situation like we've all seen

900
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,959
Speaker 4: some of our friends go through, where you know, things

901
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 4: devolve and all of a sudden they're not speaking to

902
00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 4: each other and everything is going through the lawyer, and

903
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 4: those hourly rates are starting to stack up, not to

904
00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,360
Speaker 4: mention the impact on kids and family and your lives

905
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 4: and the stress and everything else that comes from it.

906
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, yeah, so better to do it ahead of time,

907
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 3: but better late than never, it sounds like, is what

908
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,640
Speaker 3: you're saying. Erin so, there seems to be more cost

909
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 3: effective ways to actually go about getting a prenup these days.

910
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 3: Our prenups just generally more accessible. Are they just easier

911
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 3: to facilitate? Have loss changed or is it because different

912
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 3: services are coming around like yours right where folks can

913
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 3: easily find a prenup attorney. It's like somebody who specializes

914
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 3: in the creation of these. I would love to hear

915
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 3: your thoughts there.

916
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's I think you

917
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 4: nailed it with that that last one where because they

918
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 4: have risen so much in popularity and people are more

919
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 4: interested in getting them. There are a lot more attorneys

920
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,320
Speaker 4: who who are starting to specialize in them, you know.

921
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 4: Before you know, fifteen years ago, the average family law

922
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 4: attorney would probably do fifty to one hundred divorce cases

923
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,840
Speaker 4: for every one pre nup that they would do, and

924
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:17,239
Speaker 4: so they just weren't seeing as very profitable. You know,

925
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 4: you make a lot more money off of a divorce

926
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 4: than you do off of a pre nup, and people

927
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 4: just didn't have a lot of experience with them, so

928
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 4: it took people longer to give people what they wanted.

929
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 4: And over the years we've started to figure out, you know,

930
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 4: what are the best ways to help couples set up

931
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: their finances and what are the kinds of things that

932
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 4: couples want to see in their agreement, So we can

933
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 4: do it a lot more efficiently, and as a result,

934
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 4: it's a lot more accessible to people.

935
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: All right, question, So I know, on some things like

936
00:44:45,120 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 2: a will, right, you could hand write a will and

937
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: you don't even necessarily have to have it notarized as

938
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 2: long as you have a couple of witnesses, right, and

939
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 2: then that will is legally enforceable. Right, you can submit

940
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 2: that in a court of law. There's a lot of

941
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 2: nuance to that, I know, but like, could you do

942
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 2: the same with a prenup? Is it possible? Do you

943
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,759
Speaker 2: need necessarily the services of a blower? And I don't

944
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: want to sound overly cheap, but I guess I'm curious

945
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 2: to know, Like, have you seen people do IY a prenup,

946
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 2: write it down in like magic marker on construction paper

947
00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: and have that actually work out for them? Or is

948
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: it like, no, you definitely need a third party to

949
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 2: help you figure this out.

950
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:24,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know. During my legal career, you know,

951
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 4: I've probably done more than a thousand divorce cases, and

952
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 4: I've seen plenty of DUIY prenups, and they're almost always

953
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 4: legally insufficient, unenforceable, So you know, I think one of

954
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 4: the differences with a prenup and a will is you know,

955
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,720
Speaker 4: if your will is written poorly, you can always redo

956
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:47,320
Speaker 4: it later, whereas you know, you get one shot to

957
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,279
Speaker 4: do the prenup correctly. I mean, yes, you can get

958
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 4: a posting up later on down the line. But the

959
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 4: problem is a lot of people don't know that it's

960
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 4: not enforceable until they need to actually enforce it, and

961
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:59,240
Speaker 4: they're in front of a judge, and so it's risky.

962
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 4: You know, I don't want to pay lawyers. I'm a

963
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 4: lawyer myself. I don't want to pay lawyers anymore than

964
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 4: I have to. But when I need something done correctly,

965
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 4: then I, you know, I go hire a lawyer myself

966
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,359
Speaker 4: that is an expert in that thing. You know, you can,

967
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 4: you know, if you want to do some of the

968
00:46:16,239 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 4: leg work, you can. You can read the book and

969
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 4: learn kind of some of the steps to make it

970
00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 4: easier for the lawyer that you approach, or if you

971
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 4: draft something on your own, I think you would be

972
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 4: well advised to at least take it to an attorney,

973
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 4: pay that attorney for one hour of their time, and

974
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 4: tell them to look it over and make sure that

975
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 4: the basics have at least been covered.

976
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I like that.

977
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 3: Get that professional review at the very least, Joel. Don't

978
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 3: just scribble it down chick fil a napkin.

979
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: Okay, Eric. Last question for you.

980
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 3: As a divorce lawyer, aside from getting a prenup, what

981
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 3: is your your best piece of advice in your opinion,

982
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 3: to keep a marriage healthy, to keep it alive and

983
00:46:58,200 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 3: growing and just thriving.

984
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: Basically.

985
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, you know, I've given a lot of thought

986
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 4: to this myself because I am a lawyer who desperately

987
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,000
Speaker 4: wants to stay married myself. And you know, there's a

988
00:47:10,040 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 4: lot of debate over like what causes the most breakdowns

989
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 4: in relationships. Some people say it's money, some people say

990
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 4: it's infidelity. I think that, you know, at its core,

991
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 4: the root cause of most divorces is a breakdown in

992
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,359
Speaker 4: communication that leads to the erosion of trust, it leads

993
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:30,400
Speaker 4: to secrecy, and so creating kind of a framework for

994
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 4: your relationship where communication is your default. Whether it's about expenses,

995
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 4: whether it's about going to therapy, whether you know it's

996
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,319
Speaker 4: about you know, what your needs are in your family life.

997
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:47,000
Speaker 4: You know, you can't go wrong with putting an emphasis

998
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 4: on communication.

999
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:48,760
Speaker 1: In your marriage.

1000
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 4: I love it.

1001
00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, It's a good way to wrap things up. Eric

1002
00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:52,560
Speaker 3: like a happily married man right there.

1003
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, Aaron, thank you so much for joining us today

1004
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:57,840
Speaker 2: on the show. Where can our audience where can they

1005
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 2: go find out more about you? More about you know,

1006
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: creating a prenup that makes sense for them.

1007
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:06,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, if you want to learn more, you can check

1008
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,919
Speaker 4: out my website. It is prenups dot com. There's lots

1009
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 4: of free resources, you know, free ebook on there, and

1010
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 4: obviously you can go to Amazon and you can get

1011
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 4: my new book, The Prenup Prescription, which goes into much

1012
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 4: more detail.

1013
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: That's right, awesome, Well, Aaron, thank you so much for

1014
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: talking with us today.

1015
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 4: Thanks for having me on. It's been in an honor.

1016
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 2: All right, Matt, that's still a really interesting combo with

1017
00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 2: with Aaron Thomas talking about a topic that you and

1018
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 2: I were probably reticent.

1019
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 1: To touch in a lot of ways, and when people

1020
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 1: have asked us in the past.

1021
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 3: We've touched on it before in the past, but not

1022
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 3: we haven't I guess, taken it on this straightforward sat

1023
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 3: on And most of the time when we get asked

1024
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 3: about it, we are a little more hesitant to say

1025
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 3: it's a good idea.

1026
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,360
Speaker 2: We want to kind of we realize it is a necessity,

1027
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: a necessity for some folks, but it's also something that

1028
00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 2: we're we hesitate to be like give the Joel and

1029
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: Matt how to money.

1030
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 3: See a level approval. Yeah, but yeah, I guess what

1031
00:48:56,320 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 3: was your big takeaway for this combo? There's a lot

1032
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:00,919
Speaker 3: I guess that I'm thinking of now. But as you're talking,

1033
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 3: I guess what comes to mind is the fact, like

1034
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 3: the I think one of the reasons I've been hesitant

1035
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 3: personally is it is difficult for me to say, oh, yeah,

1036
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 3: this is a great idea, even though I personally don't

1037
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 3: do that right. And so even though I know that

1038
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: there are situations, but I didn't and I still don't

1039
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 3: think I will though. That's the thing, like, even after

1040
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 3: talking with him, like, well, you know, we'll Kate and

1041
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 3: I go and get a post up, I don't think

1042
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 3: we will. But that doesn't mean that it's not right

1043
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 3: for some folks. Right at the root of a lot

1044
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 3: of what he's basically talking about, Like I like at

1045
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 3: the end he talked about communication, and so much of

1046
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:34,919
Speaker 3: what he is discussing, and so much of what goes

1047
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 3: into a prenup is actual communicating. It's figuring out those goals.

1048
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 3: It is, well, if this happens, what happens, then it's

1049
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: essentially a great Like it's budgeting, right, Like he's talking about, oh,

1050
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 3: I've got my money, she's got her money, and we

1051
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 3: have our money, the joint money, and he's talking about

1052
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 3: his the freedom he has to be able to go

1053
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 3: and go out with some friends or buy some nikes

1054
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:55,959
Speaker 3: for his daughter.

1055
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,040
Speaker 1: But if adding a layer of legal protection.

1056
00:49:58,040 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 3: Yes, but there are ways that you can do that

1057
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 3: within a budget, Like that's budgeting, that's coming up with

1058
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 3: a plan for your money. But like you said, yes,

1059
00:50:04,840 --> 00:50:07,479
Speaker 3: it puts it within the framework, it puts it within

1060
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,280
Speaker 3: the package of it being legally enforcedable.

1061
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think I've come around, and I totally

1062
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: even though I did not get a prenup, I think

1063
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 2: it is something I would suggest people strongly think about.

1064
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 2: And I think the biggest two reasons are the fact

1065
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 2: that it can save you a lot of money and

1066
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:25,399
Speaker 2: a lot of heartache on the back end of things

1067
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 2: if things don't go as you hope and plan. And

1068
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 2: the other thing is just that you kind of have

1069
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 2: a prenup based on your state laws, and those state

1070
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 2: laws are different all over the place, and you know,

1071
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 2: whether it's a community property state or whether you live

1072
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: in a state where a judge gets to kind of

1073
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 2: decide the details of how things are div beat up,

1074
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 2: you might prefer to have some say over that on

1075
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: the front end then leaving it to chance. So I

1076
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: guess I have kind of come around to kind of

1077
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: Aaron's way of thinking on this one. My biggest takeaway though,

1078
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 2: was on approach and if you're going to talk about

1079
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: having a prenup so much, you're going getting married to

1080
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 2: this person because you love them, and so you need

1081
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:08,320
Speaker 2: to approach a conversation about a prenup with care and

1082
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: with love. And so if you're going to have this conversation,

1083
00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 2: if you're going to go in this direction, certainly make

1084
00:51:14,040 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 2: sure you're treating that person. You're not being defensive, being selfish,

1085
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 2: trying to protect yourself. You're trying to protect both parties

1086
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 2: in this whole endeavor.

1087
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you said it's helpful to not use the

1088
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 3: word prenup. Yeah, but instend to focus on the goals

1089
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 3: and again just all the other things that you're trying

1090
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 3: to accomplish with the prenup. But maybe don't necessarily leave

1091
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 3: with the term prenup, which could be such a loaded term.

1092
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, awesome. Let's get back to the beer.

1093
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 3: Then, you and I enjoyed a Southern Hemisphere. This is

1094
00:51:42,160 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 3: a pilsner by Second Street Brewery. What are your thoughts

1095
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,360
Speaker 3: on this one? This one was clean, light and fluffy,

1096
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 3: is what I'm going to say. So I slightly on

1097
00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 3: the bitter side. I feel like some pilsners are either

1098
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,480
Speaker 3: slightly neutral or maybe even a tiny bit sweet, whereas

1099
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 3: I feel like this one it kind of leaned slightly

1100
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 3: more in that no better. Yeah, that being said, I

1101
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 3: just had a sweet apple on my walk right after lunch,

1102
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:05,800
Speaker 3: and so I was wondering, is this having an impact

1103
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 3: on now I perceive this beer? Perhaps, but there are

1104
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 3: some biscuity vibes going on, I'll say, to very refreshing,

1105
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 3: great one. This is actually this is another beer that

1106
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 3: was donated to the show by Bob out there in

1107
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 3: New Mexico. So again, thank you so much for sending

1108
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 3: this one hour away.

1109
00:52:20,840 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, appreciate you, Bob. Is that could be it for

1110
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:23,680
Speaker 1: this episode? I'll do it.

1111
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:26,319
Speaker 2: We'll put linksin in our show notes up on our

1112
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 2: site at howtimoney dot com, including a link to Aaron's

1113
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 2: book if you're like I want a deep dive on

1114
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:34,839
Speaker 2: this subject now, this nerdy legal topic of prenups. We'll

1115
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:36,960
Speaker 2: put that up there on the site. But Matt, that's

1116
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 2: gonna do it for this one. Until next time, Best

1117
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:40,799
Speaker 2: Friends Out, Best Friends Out.