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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to what Future. I'm Josh. Whoa whoa,

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Speaker 1: whoa whoa? What? Josh, what's going on with your audio?

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Speaker 1: It's funny you should ask that. Um. Funny and also rude.

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Speaker 1: Actually um, But that's okay. I'm gonna let that slide.

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Speaker 1: I am recording this portion of the podcast from a

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Speaker 1: hotel room just outside of San Francisco, which sounds like

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Speaker 1: when you say somethings just outside of a major city,

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Speaker 1: sounds like you're doing like a drug deal, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not doing a drug deal. Maybe explain that one.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, just just outside of Like, why aren't

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Speaker 1: I in San Francisco? Right? You know, I guess I'd

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Speaker 1: more likely to do a drug deal in San Francisco,

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Speaker 1: you know. Maybe I don't know. I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: comment on the crime in San Francisco or anything. Okay, No,

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Speaker 1: I'm not Gavin Newsom. I don't know what's going on there.

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Speaker 1: But anyhow, I'm in a hotel. I'm traveling during what

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Speaker 1: is a very unusual week I think in the world.

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Speaker 1: But I mean is every isn't every week unusual? Now?

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Speaker 1: Am I nostalgic for a time that never existed. Do

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Speaker 1: I imagine an era where the weeks would go by

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Speaker 1: and you wouldn't know anything about what the president was doing,

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Speaker 1: or what was happening in politics, or if there were

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Speaker 1: wars in the world, or like what the billionaires were

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Speaker 1: doing with you know, their money, or what kind of

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Speaker 1: horrible crimes are being committed or atrocities in other countries?

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Speaker 1: Like Am I nostalgic? First off? Is it nostalgia? I

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Speaker 1: don't even know. Do I perceive of this thing having

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Speaker 1: existed that never really existed? I mean, all of these

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Speaker 1: things were always happening, but you didn't always have to

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Speaker 1: know about And now it feels like there's a moral

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Speaker 1: requirement to know, right, I do think it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit the lack of information that we used to have.

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Speaker 1: But anyhow, so I'm traveling, and when you're traveling and

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Speaker 1: I'm alone, I think you have a lot of time

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Speaker 1: to ponder. By the way, this is all my explanation

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Speaker 1: of why my audio sounds bad. I just want to

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Speaker 1: remind the listener out there that we would be talking

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Speaker 1: about something it's way more interesting. I think if Lyrah

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Speaker 1: hadn't called me out um rudely and sensitively called out

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Speaker 1: my audio changes. Look, it's just who I am. I'm

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Speaker 1: a really rude person. No, I can't, I can't it.

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Speaker 1: I understand you're just not nice. It's fine, but you

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Speaker 1: know so, so I've had a lot of time to

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Speaker 1: think that. I've been thinking about, um, the way that

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Speaker 1: we travel now, which feels like, you know, sometimes it's

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Speaker 1: not just physical travel, but it's this kind of like

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't know, you know, at the at

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Speaker 1: the risk of beating uh. First off, beating a dead

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Speaker 1: horror is kind of a rude expression. I do once

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Speaker 1: in a while catch myself when I say, because you know,

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Speaker 1: I say, it's like Zelda, my daughter, and it's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that does sound really rude and mean. Anyhow, not to

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Speaker 1: beat the dead horse. But obviously Twitter is is on

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Speaker 1: my mind a lot because once the Twitter stuff really

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Speaker 1: started getting bad, and I do think a lot of

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Speaker 1: people are kind of backing away from Twitter. It feels,

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Speaker 1: I mean, there are a lot of people who are,

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Speaker 1: you know, rage quitting it, but also just kind of

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Speaker 1: going like, I'm not going to spend a lot of

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Speaker 1: time with this now. I don't I don't like to

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Speaker 1: rage quick things, so I'm going to kind of hang

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Speaker 1: on and just see where it goes. You know, I

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Speaker 1: just want to kind of sit on the sidelines and

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Speaker 1: watch it burn like the little girl in that meme picture.

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Speaker 1: Meme picture. That's the most old I've ever sounded. Just

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Speaker 1: then we can put a put a mark down, write

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Speaker 1: it down on the calendar mid November. Josh to Pulsky

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Speaker 1: sounds as old as he's ever sounded when he says

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Speaker 1: the words meme picture. Anyhow, over the last few weeks

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Speaker 1: I've been I've been experimenting with this social network called

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Speaker 1: masted On, which is not new. It's it's been around

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Speaker 1: for several years. Have you heard of mastered on. No. Conceptually,

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Speaker 1: the way it functions and looks is you know you,

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Speaker 1: if you looked at it, you'd say, okay, that's kind

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Speaker 1: of like Twitter, but it is um You can have

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Speaker 1: your own Twitter with its own sort of rules and regulations,

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Speaker 1: and that your personal like lyras Lyra's masted On instance,

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Speaker 1: can be part of. It's part of this thing called

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Speaker 1: the feed averse, like the Federated Universe of masted on

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Speaker 1: instances or mastered on servers or whatever. This is already

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Speaker 1: sounding completely insane right, like, totally makes no sense. No

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Speaker 1: normal person wants this, no normal person needs this, No

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Speaker 1: normal sounds next level Internet like the Internet I'm not

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Speaker 1: ready for. Well, it's it's actually interesting because it is.

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Speaker 1: And I wrote a little bit about this on this

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Speaker 1: masted On thing about how you know, there's this whole movement,

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Speaker 1: this web three point no movement, which is is concerned with, uh,

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Speaker 1: decentralizing the Internet. Meaning the way the Internet works now

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Speaker 1: is essentially this top down creation. Right, We've turned it

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Speaker 1: into this place where every part of the Internet you

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Speaker 1: go to, or every part of the Internet you use,

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Speaker 1: is essentially owned and operated by some massive corporation that

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Speaker 1: sets its own sort of rules and regulations and has

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Speaker 1: its own policies and can kind of do whatever it

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Speaker 1: wants with the users. Right. So Google and Facebook and

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Speaker 1: Twitter and you know, Amazon and whoever. Right. But what's

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Speaker 1: interesting is this master died on network operates very much

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Speaker 1: like an expression of this idea that maybe the Internet

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be all of these super huge, shared, single size spaces,

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Speaker 1: but it should be you can connect spaces together. And

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Speaker 1: by the way, this is kind of how the Internet

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Speaker 1: used to be. Things could be connected together, but they

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Speaker 1: were not necessarily beholden to a single way of doing things.

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Speaker 1: And so what Masteredon is, interestingly is like maybe a

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Speaker 1: better expression than any crypto thing I've ever seen, or

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Speaker 1: any n f T or any of this stuff that

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Speaker 1: people talk about and pitch on on on social networks

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Speaker 1: as the future where it's like, oh, yeah, okay, I

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Speaker 1: can kind of see how this works because I want

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Speaker 1: to give the person who runs the this whatever instance

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Speaker 1: of Mastodon gives them control, but it also gives the

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Speaker 1: individual a lot of control. And in fact, Mastodon is

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Speaker 1: built in many ways by the l g B t

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Speaker 1: Q plus community, by transactivists, by people who have really

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Speaker 1: been you know, beat up on sort of mainstream social networks,

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Speaker 1: people who are not the mainstream sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: American middle American user or whatever. And so they've built

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Speaker 1: mastered On with this idea of consent, giving you control

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Speaker 1: and consent over what you can see, over what can

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Speaker 1: be shared over you know, how information is sort of presented,

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Speaker 1: and and and and and it takes into account all

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Speaker 1: sorts of things that a lot of like older social

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Speaker 1: networks have been very slow and taken into account, like

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Speaker 1: having content warnings or you know, keeping photos blurred until

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Speaker 1: the user actually wants to see them, or even having

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Speaker 1: you know, written descriptions for photos for people who are

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Speaker 1: have you know, site issues or whatever. And so I

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Speaker 1: think it's just an interesting and it is an interesting

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Speaker 1: model that where Twitter is like Twitter basically created tools

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Speaker 1: that would allow people to harass other people on mass

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Speaker 1: and they did nothing to prevent it. Like Twitter is

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Speaker 1: basically custom designed to allow for these like sort of

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Speaker 1: insane mobbing techniques where you can retweet somebody and show

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Speaker 1: it to a bunch of people who have nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with it, and all of those people can kind

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Speaker 1: of pile on, whereas something like masted On is built

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Speaker 1: like to do kind of the opposite. It is not

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Speaker 1: meant to like have things go viral necessarily or expose

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Speaker 1: this sort of one message or moment to like as

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Speaker 1: many people as possible, and what you can do with

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Speaker 1: that with that individual moment is much more about like

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Speaker 1: what you consent to versus sort of what the system

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Speaker 1: pushes you into. And so I'm not saying that massodon

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Speaker 1: is the future of social media. Maybe you know TikTok

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Speaker 1: is the future, although you know, I just looked at

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Speaker 1: TikTok recently and I have to say, what I saw

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Speaker 1: there was very worrying for humanity. In my opinion. That's

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Speaker 1: just one old guy's opinion. One one guy who said,

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Speaker 1: meme page, talking here, meme picture, whatever it is. I said,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I think it's interesting that there's some

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Speaker 1: new ideas still to explore, and it kind of gives

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Speaker 1: me a little again, I feel I feel like all

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Speaker 1: the time, I'm like, oh, I'm so surprised to discover

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Speaker 1: that maybe I don't feel as hopeless as I thought

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Speaker 1: I did about some of the things that are happening.

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Speaker 1: But I do think Massodon is an interesting sort of

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Speaker 1: experiment in what if we thought differently about how we

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Speaker 1: should arrange people and how we should arrange social networks.

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Speaker 1: And and frankly, like, one of the reasons why I

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Speaker 1: continued to remain extremely interested in technology even when it's

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Speaker 1: kind of abusing me is that, you know, it feels

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Speaker 1: like there still is something there that we haven't seen yet,

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Speaker 1: that we haven't experienced yet, that we hadn't even thought

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Speaker 1: of yet, you know. And if you if you'd have

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Speaker 1: told me that I would even be entertaining a new

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Speaker 1: sort of framework for a social network, I don't know

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Speaker 1: A year ago, I'd be like, no, I don't think

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Speaker 1: that will ever happen again. And so, you know, I

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Speaker 1: am kind of impressed with technology's ability to to surprise.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think the conversation we had last week

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Speaker 1: with the CEO of mid Journey is a great example

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Speaker 1: of another technology that has surprised me and impressed me

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Speaker 1: and excited me about the future and anyhow, So all

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Speaker 1: of this this has all been on my mind, and

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Speaker 1: as I've been traveling and alone with my thoughts, just

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Speaker 1: sitting in a dark room, one loan tier streaming down

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Speaker 1: my cheek, just thinking and being with my brain. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it reminded me of a of a conversation

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Speaker 1: we had recently, which I think, you know, is very relevant.

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Speaker 1: And I've been thinking a lot about with the director

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Speaker 1: and producer Vincenzo Natali, who's you know, currently helming The Peripheral,

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Speaker 1: which is a show about virtual reality and the future

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Speaker 1: of technology and like really wild stuff based on a

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Speaker 1: book written by William Gibson. And as I've been alone

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Speaker 1: with all of these thoughts about shifting from place to

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Speaker 1: place and what technology can actually do for us, and

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Speaker 1: also what is frightening about it, I felt like it's

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Speaker 1: a good time too to have that conversation. So here's

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Speaker 1: my conversation with Vincen's natally and obviously the audio is

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Speaker 1: gonna sound way better than this does. Vincenzo, thank you

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Speaker 1: for joining me today. I'm really pretty shade it. I

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Speaker 1: have a question for you, which is, what did you

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Speaker 1: have for breakfast today? Well, I'm a healthy breakfast person.

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Speaker 1: I would like to say, yes, I had to brand

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Speaker 1: and route. That sounds healthy. Yeah it is, and then

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Speaker 1: the rest of the day it all goes to hell. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and what about sleep? Do you get a lot

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Speaker 1: of sleep? Are you a good sleeper? I am? Yeah, really,

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Speaker 1: I like to do a health check with when anybody

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Speaker 1: who comes on the show. I just want to get

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Speaker 1: a sense of like how they're feeling, like what their

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Speaker 1: wellness levels are, that sort of thing. Well, there's a

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Speaker 1: million other reasons I could drop dead at any seconds. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but sleep and breakfast at taking care of we're in

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Speaker 1: a good place. You're like, I had a great, very

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Speaker 1: healthy breakfast and I just sorted a ton of cocaine,

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Speaker 1: So anything can happen. It's exactly everything in moderation. You're

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Speaker 1: a director, a producer, a writer. You wear many hats,

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Speaker 1: but you do seem to be interested in horror to

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Speaker 1: some extent or at least. Uh well, actually, would you

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Speaker 1: call it horror? Would you call the some of the

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Speaker 1: things you do horror? Oh? Yes, I have no problem

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Speaker 1: with that label. Okay, good, you're not like no, But

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Speaker 1: what is it about the genre? Like how did you

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Speaker 1: come to that genre? And what is it that excites

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Speaker 1: you about it? And how do you stay excited about it?

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Speaker 1: And there's like three different questions, but let's start with

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Speaker 1: how you got there. Well, people have been asking me

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Speaker 1: that a lot recently. It's hard for me to answer

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Speaker 1: that because my earliest memories include horror. I've always been

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Speaker 1: drawn to it and in life or or film, well both,

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Speaker 1: I guess not not horrific events in your life. No,

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Speaker 1: although I'm convinced that, you know, an attraction to horror

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Speaker 1: is sort of an awareness or a reaction to the

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Speaker 1: horror that exists in our lives, so that you know,

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Speaker 1: it's a kind of sensitivity. Joe Hill very wisely said

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Speaker 1: that people who create horror content are not satistic, there empathetic,

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Speaker 1: And I feel like if you have a lot of

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Speaker 1: empathy for other people and your sensitive to the world

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Speaker 1: around you. Probably you have a taste for horror because

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Speaker 1: the world can be pretty horrifying. Yeah, so so maybe

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Speaker 1: that's why I really don't know if ever gets into

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Speaker 1: self psychoanalysis, I'm sure no. I like, I like, that's

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Speaker 1: hopefully you have a breakthrough on this show. That's what

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Speaker 1: I would like to have happened. So I'm just you know,

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, I'm just not that interesting. Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything particularly distinctive about me, And

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Speaker 1: that's part of the reason I'm drawn to fantasy. In

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Speaker 1: anything that I make, I would never want to document

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Speaker 1: my life because I would just put people to sleep instantly.

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Speaker 1: My external life is not very interesting. Maybe the internal

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Speaker 1: one is a little more interesting. But I, you know,

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Speaker 1: horror to me, it's all kind of one thing. Horror,

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Speaker 1: fantasy and science fiction are a way of approaching the

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Speaker 1: real world in an indirect way, and and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's partially an escape, but I think it's more about

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Speaker 1: like digging under the surface of things and so on

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Speaker 1: some level, probably unconscious level. That is part of the

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Speaker 1: reason that I am drawn to it. Um part of

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Speaker 1: it is, you know, I just grew up in a

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Speaker 1: kind of middle class environment and you know, in a

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Speaker 1: very safe city Toronto, you know, an apartment complex, very clean,

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Speaker 1: very you know. I think there was just maybe a

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Speaker 1: desire to escape from that. And but horror specifically, I

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Speaker 1: think it's it's deeper than that. I think I actually

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Speaker 1: believe that there might be genetic code for like a

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Speaker 1: horror gene that is responsible for what draws people to horror,

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Speaker 1: because I see it in my kid who connected with

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Speaker 1: this stuff, and I have not encouraged it whatsoever. I

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Speaker 1: am just feel like it's hereditary. You don't think you

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Speaker 1: don't think there's just like a kind of within your world,

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Speaker 1: there's I mean, presumably you've got a lot of projects

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Speaker 1: going on that are I mean, you're around this stuff

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Speaker 1: all the time. You don't think it's just like by

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Speaker 1: osmosis from just the conversations or the things you're working on.

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Speaker 1: You think it's just an inherent He was so young

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Speaker 1: when he is drawn to it, it it would have he

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Speaker 1: couldn't possibly have been affected by anything that I can

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Speaker 1: certainly would have seen that. So no, it's some I

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Speaker 1: actually think there's like a protein sequence that that makes

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Speaker 1: you I don't know this is just a silly conjecture

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Speaker 1: on my part, but I think we have you know,

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Speaker 1: our taste certainly has to be determined by our genetic makeup,

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Speaker 1: So why not horror? I mean, it's interesting. I feel

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the things you've done, or at

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Speaker 1: least certainly some of the things you've done, are interested in,

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Speaker 1: like how the body works and how the mind works.

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Speaker 1: And what's funny that your explanation for why someone would

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Speaker 1: like horror, perhaps why you like it, is something that's

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Speaker 1: like just genetically built in. I mean, I think there's

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Speaker 1: something to it. By the way, I'm sure there's a

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Speaker 1: study out there that either proves or disproves this concept,

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Speaker 1: but I do, I do think it is an extreme thing.

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Speaker 1: Like I know people, and I'm sure you know these

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Speaker 1: these people who don't like to be scared when they

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Speaker 1: watch a movie, don't like to experience like what a

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Speaker 1: horror movie does, or even what a thriller does. And

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Speaker 1: it's a very strong, it feels like a very binary

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Speaker 1: sort of reaction. It's either like you really like it

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Speaker 1: and you enjoy it and there's just something about it

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Speaker 1: you can do over and over again, or you really

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Speaker 1: dislike it and I found that, like, there's not a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who are like I like a little

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Speaker 1: bit of horror, but not too much. So maybe there's

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Speaker 1: something to it, you know, maybe we need to do

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Speaker 1: some study. Maybe we need to do a study. Um,

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Speaker 1: I almost don't want to know, that's the thing, Like,

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Speaker 1: I think I would rather not too deep in a way.

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Speaker 1: Here's a great plot for a film. It's a group

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Speaker 1: of scientists are studying whether or not we're genetically predisposed

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Speaker 1: to be scared and like it, I don't know. And

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Speaker 1: then you take it from there, You've got it. That's

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Speaker 1: a that's a free idea. So okay. So, but was

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Speaker 1: there a movie or something for you when you were

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Speaker 1: a kid you was like, this is the thing. Was

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Speaker 1: there a artistic entry point for you, or like a

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Speaker 1: piece of work that you were like, this is the

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Speaker 1: thing that I want to do. Well. My first vivid

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Speaker 1: memory of seeing a movie, and it probably wasn't the

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Speaker 1: first time I saw, but the one that kind of

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Speaker 1: really affected me, And this is where I'm dating myself

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Speaker 1: is I saw The Golden Voyage of Sinbad, which is

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Speaker 1: a Ray Harry Housing film in a theater. It's one

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Speaker 1: of his best films, I think, and it has these

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Speaker 1: magnificent creatures, and that it's got a centaur that's also

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Speaker 1: a cyclops, and it's got multi armed callie uh statue

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Speaker 1: that comes to life, and that that really affected me.

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Speaker 1: I think it was just really transported by that that's

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Speaker 1: not a horror film, although their horror aspects to it,

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Speaker 1: And it's really beautiful, you know, and and of course

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Speaker 1: it's all handmade. And it's one of his later films,

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Speaker 1: the Seventh Voyage of in Bed, and I guess Jason

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Speaker 1: and the Argonauts are kind of the gold standard for

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Speaker 1: Ray harry House, but but this one is the one

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Speaker 1: that I really connected to it as Tom Baker in it,

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Speaker 1: who became doctor who. Yeah. Yeah, anyway, it's a really

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Speaker 1: lovely fantasy film. But there's just something about those creatures

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Speaker 1: that really affected me. And I definitely went through my

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Speaker 1: Ray harry Housing period later on when I started to

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Speaker 1: get interested in making films, like I kind of wanted

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Speaker 1: to be Ray harry House. So I guess the question

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Speaker 1: I have there is was it the creatures themselves, like

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Speaker 1: the concept of the creatures, or was it the the

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Speaker 1: technical piece of it, like that these were things were

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Speaker 1: created for film, and they were done in a very

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Speaker 1: specific sort of artistic way. Oh no, I was so young.

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Speaker 1: I was probably four years old. No, no, no, it

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Speaker 1: was it was purely seeing creatures coming to life. It

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Speaker 1: was just thrilling to me. And at a young age,

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Speaker 1: I was very interested in Greek mythology, and I think

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Speaker 1: mythological concepts have always been fascinating to me and have

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Speaker 1: stayed with me in some respect. I feel like all

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Speaker 1: my films are have that mythological basis. It just touches

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Speaker 1: a nerve, you know, these things are so deep in us.

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Speaker 1: I really I kind of believe in the collective unconsciousness.

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Speaker 1: I believe that, and there's a commonality between all of

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Speaker 1: us globally whereby certain images or certain ideas resonate. And

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Speaker 1: then a horror genre in particular does that because it's

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Speaker 1: dealing with things that are existential. Comedy doesn't necessarily travel

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Speaker 1: well between cultures, but horror does. It doesn't really know

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Speaker 1: any kind of cultural boundaries, and I think it's because

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Speaker 1: it's tapping into them. You know, obviously, that very very

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Speaker 1: basic instinct that we all have for survival, right, it

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Speaker 1: taps into literally into our fight or flight responses. Right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, when you are scared of like a jump

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Speaker 1: scare or something that's really horrific in a movie, you're

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Speaker 1: having some version of it that you'd be having if

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Speaker 1: that thing was happening to you in real life. Like

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Speaker 1: if you see like a horrific creature coming towards you,

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Speaker 1: no matter where you are, no matter what you've seen

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Speaker 1: previously or how you you know what culture you've been raised,

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Speaker 1: and you have an instinctive sort of you know, reaction.

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Speaker 1: I wonder, I mean, does horror work in some way

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Speaker 1: because it's such a foundational sort of response from people.

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Speaker 1: Do you think is that why it's such a resilient genre. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And I think that it uses the tools of cinema

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Speaker 1: more than other genres, which is also why it's exciting

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Speaker 1: to make horror, because as a director, you prove your

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Speaker 1: metal through your ability to create an atmosphere and seduce

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Speaker 1: people into a space, and that requires command over camera

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Speaker 1: and music and editing more than I think any other genre.

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Speaker 1: And if you look into the history of cinema, horror

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Speaker 1: has been with us since the beginning, you know, the

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Speaker 1: earliest and probably some of those memorable silent films like

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Speaker 1: Nonsparato are horror films, and there's just something inherently comfortable

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Speaker 1: about that genre and cinema because cinema is an immersive

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Speaker 1: experience and it's it's an experience that happens in real

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Speaker 1: time for the audience, and I think horror also benefits

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Speaker 1: from those tenets. The more you feel like and the

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Speaker 1: more you can be transported it into that screen, the

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Speaker 1: more successful it tends to be. Yeah, it is kind

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Speaker 1: of a dominating art form and people say it's hard

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Speaker 1: to look away, but it is. It is in some

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Speaker 1: ways dominates like the senses in a way that a

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Speaker 1: lot of other film just simply can't or doesn't maybe

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Speaker 1: say film, but you know, this is like across a

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Speaker 1: lot of different media. At this point, I want to a

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Speaker 1: a Cube. I don't know if it's your first film

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Speaker 1: that you directed. Is that the first thing you directed

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Speaker 1: or would I mean assume you had done stuff like

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Speaker 1: students stuff or something before that. Oh, I've been making

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Speaker 1: you know, short films since I was eleven, but Cube

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Speaker 1: was my first future film. Now I remember Cube came

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Speaker 1: out what seven? Is that correct? Yeah? Depending on where

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Speaker 1: you live. My recollection is I encountered Cube like on Blockbuster.

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Speaker 1: I feel like Cube is maybe one of the first

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Speaker 1: films that and I don't know if this will sound

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Speaker 1: insalting or not, hopefully not, but it's one of the

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Speaker 1: first movies I remember seeing in blockbustering going like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if this was ever in a theater anywhere

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Speaker 1: near where I lived. I'm from Pittsburgh, so it's very

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Speaker 1: possible maybe Cube was in major cities that did not

403
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Speaker 1: hit Pittsburgh, PA. But I remember being a fairly important

404
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Speaker 1: movie in the sense that everybody was talking about it,

405
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Speaker 1: and it was one of those things that seemed to

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Speaker 1: appear out of nowhere and captured some I don't know, zekeguy,

407
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Speaker 1: some moment of anxiety and paranoia that was happening at

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Speaker 1: that time. Because you just if you had to sum

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Speaker 1: up for somebody who has no idea what Cube is,

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Speaker 1: how would you describe it? Uh? Well, Cube is the

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Speaker 1: story of six strangers who wake up in a maze

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Speaker 1: of identical cubic rooms with no food or water. All

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Speaker 1: they have the their minds, their bodies, and the clothes

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Speaker 1: on their back, and they have to find a way

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Speaker 1: out before they die of thirst starvation. But the extra

416
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Speaker 1: wrinkle in all of this is that some rooms have

417
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Speaker 1: booby traps in them, deadly booby traps, right, And ultimately

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Speaker 1: what they come to realize is that they are in

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Speaker 1: fact inside a mathematical puzzle, and that the solution to survival,

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Speaker 1: or at least part of it, is decoding that solution.

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Speaker 1: But to do that they have to work together. I

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Speaker 1: wrote it with my lifelong friend Andre Bagelic, were roommates

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Speaker 1: at the time, and I think the writing process for

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Speaker 1: us was almost like archaeology. It kind of felt like

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Speaker 1: we had stumbled on something. I knew almost right away

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Speaker 1: that this was a great idea, and and like a

427
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Speaker 1: lot of great ideas, I feel like I almost can't

428
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: take responsibility for it. I think it's just something I

429
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: came across, and gradually as we started write this thing,

430
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: it was like, you know, an ancient building that was

431
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: beneath the sand, and we were kind of slowly unearthened. Really,

432
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: what we were doing is we discovering what Cartesian spaces

433
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 1: the mathematical dunce is. Math is pretty cool. Math became

434
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: very cool, could be used to kill, to kill, and

435
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 1: to survive, And but I think I think, what at

436
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: the core of it, what makes Cube resonate is just

437
00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 1: that basic idea that we are dropped into this world

438
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 1: in our actual lives with no plan, and we have

439
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,360
Speaker 1: to find a way, and we need to do with

440
00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: other people. We have to negotiate our path together, and

441
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: survival is dependent on being able to do it together,

442
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 1: trying to survive together. And then at this moment, I

443
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: don't feel overly optimistic about our ability to work together

444
00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: and therefore to survive. It's uh, tell me about it anyway.

445
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of a timeless theme, and so

446
00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,920
Speaker 1: you know, it resonated, then it resonates now. I think

447
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: maybe at that time it seemed extra special because there

448
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,200
Speaker 1: just weren't any to be honest, there were no other

449
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: movies like that. Like I really feel like again that

450
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,280
Speaker 1: we just kind of found this amazing thing. And it

451
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: was also I remember, you know, the process of trying

452
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: to get it made was challenging because people have just

453
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 1: kept saying, well, the short film, and you can't make

454
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: a whole movie in one room, and and since Cube,

455
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:52,679
Speaker 1: and not not because of Cube, but you know, in

456
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: the years that have passed, for a variety of reasons,

457
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: there is a whole genre. There's multiple sub genres that

458
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: take place in single space set right, No, I mean

459
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,199
Speaker 1: it's it's a whole industry now the cube has spond

460
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 1: From a budgetary perspective, I would imagine like you're like,

461
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,160
Speaker 1: it's going to be in a box. Basically you're gonna

462
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: be in a like a just an empty room. That

463
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: feels like a win on the on the budget side

464
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: of things, but it's sort of also kind of waiting

465
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: for Godot sort of no exit. I would imagine some

466
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: of these things would have influenced that the creation of it,

467
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:23,879
Speaker 1: Like where it's like a bunch of people in a

468
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: place where they don't fully understand, the viewer doesn't fully understand,

469
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 1: and everybody's trying to make sense of it, and along

470
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 1: the way we learn, you know, terrible and shocking things

471
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 1: about all of the players. It's a technology movie in

472
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: some way, right, Like the place that people are grappling

473
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 1: with Like you said, it's sort of this math problem.

474
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 1: There is a an outside force that is very technical

475
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 1: in nature that needs to be grappled with. How much

476
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,959
Speaker 1: is technology for you? Like an important piece of the

477
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: puzzle of no pun intended with cub but the you know,

478
00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: a piece of the puzzle when you're putting together and

479
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: when you're thinking about some of these ideas for your

480
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 1: for your films and for the stuff that you're working on,

481
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: your TV stuff. Well, I think that we're children of technology,

482
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 1: you know, especially, and I think I predate you, but

483
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,479
Speaker 1: you know, my generation and beyond we were a meshed

484
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 1: with our technology to the point where we can't really

485
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: distinguish between the two and and Cube. I remember very

486
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 1: consciously early on in creating Cube, I was thinking, this

487
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 1: is Dante's Inferno, but it's the contemporary version of that.

488
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 1: You know, these people were not in in a world

489
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: of brimstone and treacle, and um, we're not underground. Uh,

490
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: we're in a very sterile, man made technological space. So

491
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: these people are in the belly of a technological beast.

492
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: And I think more than ever, we probably all feel

493
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 1: that way right now. You know, I'm communicating to with

494
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: my iPad. You're in a cube, we're in little boxes.

495
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: I would love to know how to escape this particular

496
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 1: zoom cube or whatever that modern reality has placed us in. Sorry,

497
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: Josh's not gonna happen. Yeah, I know we're stuck here,

498
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 1: and I think that's it, you know, you, you wonder, well,

499
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: are we at service to the technology? Because it doesn't

500
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: feel like the technologies that service to us. It feels

501
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: like it is its own organism, that it's intentions, whatever

502
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: mysterious intentions they have, are superseding those of its creators

503
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: to some degree. And I mean, I guess it goes

504
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: back to Mary Shelley right and Frankenstein. But there is,

505
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: unquestionably it's like increasingly intimate relationship that humans have with

506
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: their technology, to the point where I really do feel like,

507
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: as we all do, I'm sure we're kind of merging

508
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,920
Speaker 1: with it. And it's you know, it's both empowering and incredible,

509
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: Like this this little device that we're working on. I

510
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 1: have no other computer that I use. I only use

511
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 1: it to write and I can draw on it. You

512
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 1: only use an iPad. I now only use an iPad.

513
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: It's solid state. I can't break it easily. It's very lightweight.

514
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,959
Speaker 1: Can I ask a dumb question, I have a dumb question.

515
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: Do you use the the twelve point nine inch I

516
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 1: pad or the smaller eleven inch I I use that

517
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:09,600
Speaker 1: pad pro so I draw on it. I just is it?

518
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: But is it? It's the biggest one though, because I

519
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: just got one. I'm just curious to know what the

520
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: what a professional like yourself is using. You've got the

521
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: biggest one, right, yes, bigger is that are in my opinion,

522
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 1: I draw with it, do you, and you don't find

523
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,440
Speaker 1: it to be unwieldy. Just this is a total aside,

524
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with what we're talking about. But

525
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: you think the size is fine. You like that, as

526
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: I say, I draw on it, like for me, i'd

527
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: like it. I'd like a bigger one if they made them,

528
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 1: because I'm using a pen on it, a bigger iPad,

529
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: like I'm trying to imagine a larger iPad that would

530
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: just be like a desk that you carry around, well,

531
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: you know, bring it on. I say, okay, interesting, you know,

532
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 1: I love it because it's very but it's very late weight.

533
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,480
Speaker 1: It's much lighter than a you know, desk that will

534
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: certain in a desktop or you know, even a notebook.

535
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: And yeah, sorry, I completely got you off what you're saying.

536
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 1: But I was just so curious because you mentioned before

537
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: and I was gonna ask you that you run an iPad.

538
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: I was gonna ask you, but you were you were

539
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: talking about this, the fact that this is the only

540
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: device you use for for everything. Yeah, and it's so empowering.

541
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 1: Like I did, I've finished a graphic novel that I

542
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 1: did entirely on my iPad. I did a I'm embarrassed

543
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: to admit this that I did an album of musically

544
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: that I did on my iPad, which is even more

545
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,239
Speaker 1: extraordinary because I have no musical ability and you use

546
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 1: garage band, and I used garage band, and I found

547
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: I could do all these things. It was like, you know,

548
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 1: being able to suddenly speak a language that I can

549
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: never speak before. Um, and I don't think my music

550
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: is very good, by the way, I'd love to hear

551
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: just what you made, because I actually used to produce

552
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: music for a living, and so one of the things

553
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: I do love to do as a kind of recreational

554
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: activity is sit on either with my iPad or on

555
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: my laptop and work on random music just because it's

556
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: like it's just relaxing to me, you know, it's like

557
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: something I don't have to do for work anymore, and

558
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: so it's become fun. But you're basically saying you're not

559
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: a musician, you know, by nature or whatever, but you've

560
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: created what you would would you just describe as an

561
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: album's worth of material. I would love to hear it.

562
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: I mean I would just if you could you further

563
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: to that, Sorry, jobs, I don't mean to interrupt, but

564
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: further to that, for a mere forty dollars or something

565
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 1: a year, I was able to upload it onto every

566
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: music streaming service there is. I could go listen to

567
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:21,959
Speaker 1: it right now. Is that what you're saying? Ye, go

568
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: into band camp or iTunes everything? Is it under your name? Ye?

569
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: Just under my name? And I like how you're like,

570
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: i'bout a musician. I you know, I don't really just

571
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: sort of like just messing around. But also it's on

572
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 1: Spotify right now if you want to listen to it,

573
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: I mean, we have. We're gonna play some of it.

574
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: I will, We're definitely gonna play some vic I'm dying

575
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 1: to hear what it sounds like. How would you describe

576
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: it before I even listen to What is the genre? Uh? Well,

577
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: I'll probably falls into ambient, you know, like it's it's

578
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,240
Speaker 1: not terribly melodic. And this is just me goofing around.

579
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: Like what I loved about doing it was I have

580
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: no pretensions of being good and and ironically I feel

581
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 1: like that made me more creative, Whereas when I draw,

582
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: I'm not a great artist, but I'm good enough that

583
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: I tried really hard to be good. But when I

584
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: was making the music, it was just fun. I was

585
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: just like a monkey with finger paint, and I was

586
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 1: so I was continually surprised at like, oh, that's better

587
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: than I thought it would be. And if you listen

588
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 1: to the album, it's very silly and playful and goofy

589
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: in a way. You spent your life thinking, boy, I

590
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: wish I could make an album. That's something He's been

591
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: a far off dreamer. Was it just one day you

592
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 1: were like, oh, I have garage band on here, I

593
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 1: might as well screw around with it. Actually, what it is,

594
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: I'm a nervous flyer. I used to be very uncomfortable

595
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,040
Speaker 1: in an airplane and and I find there is nothing

596
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: more engaging and distracting um and and it makes time

597
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: fly faster than when I'm doing music. I just I

598
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 1: just completely lose myself and it so the whole album

599
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: was recorded on airplanes. No, that's I'm I'm a terrible flyer.

600
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: I take xanax. I mean that's my My solution is

601
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: I literally medicate myself and I get on planes because

602
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: I'm so convinced that I'm going to die for me,

603
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: it's definitely one of the few situations where I don't

604
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: have any control over anything. And so I'm sure, as

605
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 1: you know, as a like a producer and director, you're

606
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: probably used to having a lot of control over things,

607
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: so maybe there's a similarity there. But um, yeah, music making,

608
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: that's interesting. I have made some music on planes, but

609
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 1: I've never thought of it as a alternative to or

610
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 1: in a in addition to medicating myself so I don't

611
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: lose my mind. Maybe that that would be a good

612
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 1: convenient It could, I could. Maybe I'll make an ambient album,

613
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: you know, who knows. Maybe that's how I break into

614
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: the into the low key music genre. This is so interesting.

615
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: The films are there's a lot of technology and you're like, whoa,

616
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,719
Speaker 1: this is really funked up. This is a bad technology

617
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: is very bad for us in some ways, or this

618
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: technology is being used in a really bad way, but

619
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: in your actual life you like it and you're finding

620
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: new uses for it that you feel really good about. Yeah,

621
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: that's just it. It's it's not simple. I think we

622
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: have a complex relationship with our technology, and I see

623
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: a lot of what's negative about it and a lot

624
00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: of what's really scary about it. You know, there's this

625
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: thing called mid Journey I've been working with, which is

626
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: this artificial intelligence program. You probably know that the paints.

627
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: And I just created a look book for my next

628
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:12,640
Speaker 1: movie entirely with mid Journey, which again is incredibly cheap

629
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: to use. It costs by thirty or forty dollars a month.

630
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: And I did I don't know, thirty or forty paintings

631
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: to basically create the look of my film. And I

632
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: did you know, I did some additional photoshop type work

633
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: on it, but it did about eight of the work

634
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: for me. In you're mentioning this, sorry, go ahead, finish

635
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,080
Speaker 1: your point that I have a couple of things. Oh no, no,

636
00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: but it's just so it's it's thrilling. It's like, oh

637
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: my god, it's doing artwork that is beyond my level

638
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: as an artist. And if I had to pay someone

639
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: to do this, this would cost me thousands and thousands

640
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 1: of dollars and it would take a really long time.

641
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: I did this sort of part time for a month,

642
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: you know, like a few hours every day, for a

643
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: month and it cost me thirty bucks and the results

644
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: are kind of amazing, and not only because the quality

645
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: the arts good, but also because depending on the prompts

646
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 1: you use and the way it works is you just

647
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 1: write in a few words and then it it interprets

648
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 1: that as an image. It's very creative. I would write

649
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: something kind of not to dictate what I wanted, but

650
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: to sort of discover like it was it was suggesting

651
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,239
Speaker 1: images from my movie. It wasn't just taking my dictation.

652
00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 1: So in that regard, I suddenly could see the end

653
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,920
Speaker 1: of my role in this industry. You mean you could

654
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 1: see the end of like what you do, like that

655
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 1: coming to an end. Yeah, I see it. I'm not

656
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 1: saying it's going to happen based on what mid Journey does.

657
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 1: It's not a big extrapolation to imagine how would do

658
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: the same thing with words and with screenplays, especially screenplay,

659
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: because screenplays are very structure oriented, you know, not like

660
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:51,960
Speaker 1: writing a novel, which is has a very kind of

661
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: intimate personal point of view. But let's face it, in Hollywood,

662
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: most screenplays are just a mash up of a whole

663
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: bunch of other screenplays anyway, So how much of belief.

664
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 1: Is it to imagine a machine that could take everything,

665
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,000
Speaker 1: every screen cleet it's ever written. And then if you

666
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: wrote a prompt like say pilot for Buddy Cop Show

667
00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: where African American female cop teams up with alien and

668
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: both fall in love with robot, sixty pages, comedy, action,

669
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,319
Speaker 1: fast paced, and then in five minutes, it's going to

670
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 1: give you not one, but like four versions of your prompt.

671
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,279
Speaker 1: And then you'll take those four versions and you'll read

672
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: them and you'll go, oh, I like that, and that

673
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: maybe I'll take this piece from there and you'll either

674
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,239
Speaker 1: say we'll do it again, or you the writer will

675
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 1: then cobble edit what it's produced, much in the way

676
00:35:46,920 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 1: that I would edit these paintings that it would give

677
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: me and then maybe right over it or you know,

678
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:55,759
Speaker 1: like add your layer to it, and it would permit

679
00:35:55,800 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: you to write like a hundred scripts a year. And

680
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: does this scare you or does this excite you? As

681
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: a person who's doing that stuff, You're like into it?

682
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: It's both right. I'm so happy and excited that you

683
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,399
Speaker 1: mentioned mid Journey for a couple of reasons. First off,

684
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: we interviewed the CEO of Mid Journey, A couple of

685
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 1: weeks ago, who is a fascinating dude. But also the

686
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: art for this I dropped a link in the chat.

687
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have access to the chat here.

688
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: Oh there, I can see it enough. Yeah, gorgeous. So

689
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: this art, this art idea with mid Journey, you have

690
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: a similar level of excitement that I had, which to

691
00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: me and I've said this, I probably now said this

692
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 1: on the podcast a few times a few different episodes.

693
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: Um it, it was like the most amazing thing I've

694
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: ever seen a machine do. I've ever seen a computer do,

695
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: because it felt like I could see a dream almost

696
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: anything you can think of. It could depict like my

697
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 1: brain can't visualize like quite that way. Maybe yours is

698
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: better at I mean, you're you're working obviously an extremely

699
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: visual medium. But to see a thing that is a

700
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,520
Speaker 1: string of words that I understand, the philosophical, intellectual concept

701
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: of that string of words. To see that string of

702
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: words be turned into image, and not just the image,

703
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: but really fucking good, really interesting art was like pretty

704
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: mind blowing to me. And it seems like you had

705
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: a similar reaction. But there are a lot of people,

706
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: especially people in your world, who are artists and creators

707
00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 1: and directors and writers who are really really freaked out

708
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 1: about it, because I mean I could have paid an

709
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 1: artist to do this art right totally, but I didn't.

710
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: You know, I paid thirty dollars above a bid journey,

711
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: and I think it's like an amazing piece of art.

712
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 1: Like I'm like, this is so beautiful. I it's hard

713
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: to believe I had anything to do with it. So

714
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: how far off do you think we are from? Like,

715
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 1: you know, you being replaced as a screenwriter and possibly

716
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: a director. Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm not

717
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: I'm not knowledgeable enough to say, but I do feel

718
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: like I was a charter to Mountained, I'd be fucking terrified,

719
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 1: or even a lawyer, like those jobs are going away.

720
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: There's no way. It's interesting you go, you go to

721
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: the opposite end of the spectrum because the people who

722
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: are upset about AI stuff like this right now are

723
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: largely artists working artists, And I think that, you know,

724
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: there's going to be a clear drop off. And I've

725
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,880
Speaker 1: had people sort of a don't really mentioned to me

726
00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: that they've they've seen their work dropping off already from

727
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 1: people just you know, doing this AI stuff. The only

728
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,719
Speaker 1: thing is and I can only speak about now and

729
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 1: then my crazy conjecture of what the future might be.

730
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: But right now, yes, the Journey is amazing, and I

731
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,919
Speaker 1: don't know, there's Dali and there's other ones. It's great

732
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 1: if you just want to, like, if you have a

733
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,880
Speaker 1: wide bandwidth of what you want. If you want something specific,

734
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: it's not very good. You need an artist to come

735
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:54,200
Speaker 1: in and you know, if you have a logo or

736
00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,080
Speaker 1: specific image you want, if you want some crazy album

737
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:00,320
Speaker 1: cover art, the Journey is your tool for sure, because

738
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: it's crazy. It is crazy, like crazy is the wrong word.

739
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 1: It has a kind of alien which I love, like

740
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: alien quality to the way it creates images. But it's

741
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 1: very difficult to control and it still has limitations. It's

742
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 1: not good with human faces, right. I think in one

743
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: year from now that will be, Yeah, it will be

744
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: way better at that, and then in five years from

745
00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: now it will be able to perfectly create anything you

746
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 1: can tell it to do. I mean, but that's just it.

747
00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 1: So right now, where it is, like a lot of

748
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: these technologies, is it what will do for artists is

749
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: it will allow them to produce more work basket, right,

750
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: you know, because it will do a lot of the

751
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: heavy lifting, Like if you have a city background you

752
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 1: need or some thing that's like very time consuming, and

753
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: it could produce that for you, and then you could

754
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: paint on top of that, or you can do things

755
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: with it. It's an augmentation. Yeah, I tend to agree,

756
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: and I think it's like photoshop. I mean in the

757
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: sense that there are things photoshop does for artists as

758
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: an example, or garage band for you, for instance, you

759
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: clearly have an artistic sensibility about the music you want

760
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 1: to make, but there are parts of it you can't

761
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 1: do on your own, right, I mean, and so so

762
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 1: garag band is there to kind of fill in some

763
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,920
Speaker 1: creative gaps or some experience gaps for you. I mean,

764
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: I think I agree with the AI stuff, but I

765
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 1: think it's also scary just because we're not used to

766
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 1: seeing creative output from a machine. Like yes, you tell it,

767
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: I want to mountain in c G. I like, it

768
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: will make a mountain and you go, all right, well,

769
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: it kind of randomize the surfaces of that mountain. So

770
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: that sort of makes sense to me. This is like

771
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: much more specific kind of creativity, and I think that's

772
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: where it kind of freaks people out. It feels like

773
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: it's creating something on purpose. Oh utterly. It doesn't now

774
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,040
Speaker 1: take a huge leap to imagine. No, this thing is

775
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: sentiment and you know that's like a slippery word. But

776
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: it's not just like, you know, a random machine that's

777
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: putting things together. It's going to have an opinion, right, Like,

778
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 1: it's going to have a perspective. Now that might not

779
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 1: be a human perspective, or it might be just a

780
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: kind of synthetic imitation of a human perspective, but it's

781
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: going to have a perspective. It's going to be something

782
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: that you sort of have to negotiate with. It's not

783
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: going to just be paint by numbers machine. And so

784
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: I think that's where it gets unsettling. It's like, oh okay,

785
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 1: and that's where I started to go, well, yes, at

786
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 1: some point there, you're not going to need the director anymore,

787
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:21,640
Speaker 1: because you're going to say Alfred Hitchcock meets um Jacques

788
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: Tati style with James Cameron's lighting or something like, and

789
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,879
Speaker 1: then it will just make a movie for you. Yes,

790
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,879
Speaker 1: So here's the unsettling part. You get to realize, oh,

791
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 1: I'm just cobbling from things that exist. Right, See how

792
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: original am I like? That starts to very advanced a

793
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,399
Speaker 1: I basically right, Well, we like to think that we're

794
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: more than that, right, that we have souls, that we

795
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 1: are expressing something that is entirely unique to us. But

796
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,439
Speaker 1: especially in the film world, I don't want to speak

797
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:55,040
Speaker 1: about other artists. You know, film is so technical and

798
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: it's such a It is a medium that needs to

799
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 1: speak to many, many men people, And so I think

800
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 1: a lot of filmmakers, not saying all of them, but

801
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 1: a lot of filmmakers are really taking what they've absorbed

802
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 1: from other filmmakers and then putting the through the filter

803
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: of who they are and expressing that. And when you

804
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: start to realize that's the AI like, there's really maybe

805
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: there's not so much difference between well, I think there

806
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,319
Speaker 1: may still be some use for humans. I have not

807
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 1: even gotten to the peripheral, which I want to talk about.

808
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,360
Speaker 1: You're a producer. You directed what the first two episodes

809
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,760
Speaker 1: of the show? Is that right? I directed episodes one, two,

810
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 1: and five, and six, and I have a wonderful directing

811
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 1: partner like Riley who did the other ones. So this

812
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: is your I mean, this is kind of your baby,

813
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: and it is based on a women Gibson book. I

814
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:51,880
Speaker 1: will admit I've only watched the first episode and I

815
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: haven't read the book. And I am a lifelong William

816
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 1: Gibson fan, and I have there are a few books

817
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,400
Speaker 1: of the last you know, I dont a decade or

818
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: so that I have. I have missed, and I was like,

819
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: I should I read the book first and then watch,

820
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,400
Speaker 1: And then the trailer was so compelling, and I'm like,

821
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna watch it. I'm just gonna bite the bullet.

822
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 1: And it's dealing with sort of this concept of obviously

823
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,000
Speaker 1: with virtual reality, like a much more advanced virtual reality.

824
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: There's a really interesting undercurrent about healthcare in the country

825
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: where like a pill costs like a thousand dollars or something.

826
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: And it's also kind of like exploring this this like

827
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 1: alternate reality or like metaverse reality that you know, I

828
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 1: mean the metaverse. I don't know how much like faith

829
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,359
Speaker 1: or stock we put in the concept now, But do

830
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: you feel like this is reflective of this moment? Is

831
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: this a mirror to the world as it is now?

832
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: Or is this total fantasy? Oh no, it's not a

833
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 1: little fantasy. I mean the book was written in and then,

834
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: in typical Gibson fashion, the world has kind of grown

835
00:43:45,040 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: into the book. It was pretty trump like when he

836
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:50,840
Speaker 1: wrote this thing, and but he was basically writing about America.

837
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: That was I had walked a little further down the

838
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 1: Trump road, because there's a near future south eastern United

839
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:00,879
Speaker 1: States location that kind of is that's where we made

840
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: our our primary character, Flynn Fisher. And there is a

841
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:07,040
Speaker 1: concept in the book and it's kind of a spoiler

842
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: for the series. But because we're talking about okay, well,

843
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 1: but that is not the chilling part of the story. Okay, okay, good.

844
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: The chilling part of the story is something else, Like

845
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 1: we've known about this for a long time, you could

846
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: see it coming. But the way he articulates it, I

847
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 1: am positive, is the most correct and plausible depiction of

848
00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 1: what is in our near future, and it is utterly terrifying. God.

849
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: As the years have gone by, it has been born out,

850
00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:35,839
Speaker 1: you know, the subsequent whatever. It is eight years since

851
00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: the book was published, So I don't think you can

852
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: watch it without getting a little bit like queasy because

853
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 1: you're like, uh, is this going to happen? On some level?

854
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: If you read the book, what it is is a satire.

855
00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 1: There was at some point a few years ago a

856
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 1: story that you were working on a film version of Neuromancer?

857
00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: Are you still working on that? Is that a real thing?

858
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: Is there? You're not working on it? Can you talk

859
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: about that? It all right? Now? Oh? I can talk

860
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: about my version of Roman? Say yeah, I know. That

861
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 1: was my introduction to getting to know Mr Gibson, who

862
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,920
Speaker 1: is one of the great not only one of the

863
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,000
Speaker 1: great novelists, but one of the great people I've met

864
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 1: in my life. He's just a lovely, lovely human being

865
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,319
Speaker 1: and of course brilliant um And I had the good

866
00:45:19,360 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 1: fortune of getting my greedy, grubby little fingers on Neuromancer

867
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: and writing a screenplay based on the book, which I,

868
00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:28,839
Speaker 1: to be perfectly honest, feeling is one of the best

869
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: things I had written, which of course is because the

870
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 1: books so good, But but it really felt like I

871
00:45:34,120 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: cracked the book, and you know, creatively, on every level

872
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 1: of all the stuff that was done, it was just great.

873
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 1: That The problem was it's like a million dollars cyberpunk

874
00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: film and I'm not James Cameron. Wait, does that mean

875
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 1: that you can't direct it? Or people don't want to

876
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,919
Speaker 1: give you the money, Like what is the at that time?

877
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,719
Speaker 1: Now we're talking twelve years ago. You know, I had

878
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: some heavy hitting producers who attached themselves to it, and

879
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 1: they just couldn't convince the studios for various reasons. Warner

880
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 1: Brothers said, it's too much like the Matrix. Of course

881
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 1: the Matrix lifted. I wonder why, right, But I always

882
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 1: felt like, yes, that's true. The Matrix took a lot

883
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: from Romance, including the word the Matrix, but the heart

884
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 1: of the book is very different, and it was dealing

885
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,920
Speaker 1: actually dealing with artificial intelligence that I felt had been

886
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 1: explored at that time. I think it's so funny that

887
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,479
Speaker 1: they would say that to me. It's like that part

888
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 1: of it is such a not an important component in

889
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: many ways, like the Matrix in Neuromancer is so not

890
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 1: the story, you know, like it is the story about

891
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:45,719
Speaker 1: humanity and those people, and like, you know, it's kind

892
00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 1: of also the heist. It's like a heist book, which no, no,

893
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: that's you. You you nailed it. The most thrilling bit

894
00:46:51,960 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 1: is the heist, which is like such an unbelievable sequence

895
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 1: of events and like yeah, like that feels like it

896
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 1: should be a film or something, you know, like you

897
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 1: with Neuromancer, I sincerely hope someone makes Romancer from the

898
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: bottom of my heart, but if someone offered it to

899
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 1: me right now, I'm not sure I would take it

900
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: because that was written forty years ago, whereas the peripheral

901
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 1: to me, for me is much more exciting because it

902
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: is so much about this time. It is speaking directly

903
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: to this kind of precipitous moment that we are standing on,

904
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: you know, where I just feel like we're on a

905
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 1: razor's edge and I don't know what's going to happen.

906
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: And I don't think Neuromancer, for all of its greatness,

907
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 1: is about that because it was written a long time ago.

908
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,200
Speaker 1: It is increasingly and I mean this has been on

909
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:42,240
Speaker 1: my mind a lot lately that the things to really

910
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: be freaked out by are no longer like these very abstract,

911
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: you know, far away fears. They're like things that are

912
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: just around the corner. And and you can draw a

913
00:47:56,600 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: pretty clear line from like this moment in time to

914
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:02,880
Speaker 1: something like that happening. And yeah, I mean I get it.

915
00:48:02,960 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: Working in a space, it's so much more topical, or

916
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 1: feel so much more connected to this moment. Makes sense,

917
00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: though I do think based on what I've seen of

918
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,840
Speaker 1: your work, I feel like you would do a pretty

919
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,680
Speaker 1: kick ask job with Neuromancer. This has been such an

920
00:48:15,680 --> 00:48:19,920
Speaker 1: amazing conversation, Vincenzo. Thank you so much, Like really enjoyed this.

921
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: Like we touched on so many things that I am

922
00:48:22,360 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 1: so interested in. There was some insight, there was some surprise,

923
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 1: there was some unexpected moments. So thank you so much

924
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:29,680
Speaker 1: for doing this. You got to come back and you know,

925
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,880
Speaker 1: maybe when you're finally doing Neuromancer, you can come back

926
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 1: and we can talk about thank you. It's such a pleasure.

927
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: Thinks thank you. And that is vincenz It talently his

928
00:48:54,120 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 1: music that you're listening to right now from his album

929
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: he produced on his big iPad. And I have to

930
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 1: say pretty good. Yeah, I actually, and I'm not saying

931
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,040
Speaker 1: this just because like he's a great guest and a

932
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: nice guy. I actually when I heard this, I was like,

933
00:49:13,160 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: what is this is really good? And and and so

934
00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: you know, you had another example of technology helping and healing.

935
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: I would say, not in that order. I have become

936
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: addicted to mid journey. Uh that sounds unhealthy. Well, you

937
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,359
Speaker 1: know what I mean I'm saying addiction is good. I

938
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: love mid Journey. I made so many images that I

939
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: ran through my free trial and I want to keep going.

940
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: Did you subscribe? I haven't yet. I mean, this happened

941
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: last night, but I just think it's so interesting that

942
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 1: he's been using it. You've been using it, I've joined

943
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: the subreddit, you're getting deep on it. And well they

944
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 1: also just released a new version. Actually the day at

945
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:04,239
Speaker 1: we I think put out our our show with David

946
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 1: the CEO. There's a new version of that's even better.

947
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: And it really is unbelievably good at at creating like

948
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:16,320
Speaker 1: very very almost photo realistic or photo realistic images, amongst

949
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: other things. Yeah, I honestly think it's so fascinating that

950
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:22,839
Speaker 1: Vincenzo feels so weirdly sort of I don't know, he's

951
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:26,440
Speaker 1: like optimistic about the fact that it could replace him

952
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 1: in a way, or not optimistic but sort of accepting.

953
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: I do feel like there's a limit to its power

954
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: right now. It's applications are pretty straightforward. I mean, it's

955
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: for me not having to create beautiful artwork for our

956
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: show every week. Although I suppose I could mean, I

957
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 1: suppose I could be doing new artwork every week. I

958
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 1: haven't returned to it that much, though, the other day

959
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: Zelda was like, can we play with the thing that

960
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: made George Washington dancing with like Alsa from Frozen or whatever,

961
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: And so you know, it could be the next generation

962
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,359
Speaker 1: is going to really pick it up. But I think

963
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: that it is kind of addictive in the sense that

964
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 1: once you start doing it and you realize you can

965
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 1: almost put anything into it, and you have no idea

966
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: what you're going to get, but every result is in

967
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: some way interesting. It is a little bit like a

968
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: dopamine hit, you know. As we distance ourselves from social networks,

969
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: maybe the next like addictive behavior is just creation and

970
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: maybe that's an amazing new and better place for us

971
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: to get to. Maybe everybody's gonna become addicted to creating things.

972
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: I hope you're right. Well, look, I think that's a

973
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,279
Speaker 1: great place to end it on a high note, on

974
00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:34,839
Speaker 1: a positive, hopeful note. That is our show for this week.

975
00:51:35,280 --> 00:51:38,040
Speaker 1: We'll be back next week with more what Future, and

976
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: that's always I wish you and your family the very

977
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:41,400
Speaker 1: best