WEBVTT - 534 - Think About the Simulation 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.200 Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:21.360 That's Georgia Hardstar. 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:22.520 That's Karen Kilgara. 0:00:22.760 --> 0:00:26.000 No pointing, Oh yeah, sorry, that's against the one I 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.760 was the only one to pointing is rude point? 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:33.240 Don't you ever stop do it? How are you? I'm good. 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.040 I'm grateful to have the job of podcasting today. 0:00:37.159 --> 0:00:40.080 Same yep, why specifically today. 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.000 I don't know. It's just a really nice life. 0:00:43.800 --> 0:00:45.440 It's Vince and I were talking about how it's all 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:48.640 democracy is going to be over soon, so like, how 0:00:48.640 --> 0:00:50.760 do we celebrate what we have now? 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:52.360 That's right for me. 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.160 I tell my therapists that when I'm really bummed, I 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.120 think about if I took a time machine back to 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:01.800 today because the apocalypse has happened, I'm going to look 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.839 at everything and be like, wow, I was so lucky, Yes, 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:06.920 to have these things, and to be able to talk 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:08.600 to these people and to do these. 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:10.080 We have a hot dog phone, to. 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:12.280 Have freedom, to have a hot dog phone. So just 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:13.479 pretend you're from the. 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:17.399 Future, yes, which is a dark terrible place or not 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:18.560 or not? 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:22.040 Or a rule of six with that dark terrible place 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.200 and five other options. Okay, got to do five other 0:01:25.240 --> 0:01:27.720 options every time? Okay, my therapist does it like this, though, 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.320 she puts her hand up and then goes, this is dark. 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:30.959 This is dark. 0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:31.760 Terrible times. 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.520 It also could be neutral times. 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:34.919 Okay. 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:38.520 It could be very bright and shiny times exactly the same. 0:01:39.000 --> 0:01:40.920 It could be like we're all working at Macy's all 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:41.280 the time. 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:43.320 Yeah, weird but doable. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:46.000 I could have a desk job. See b Richard Ellis Investors, 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:50.400 you could go moment please so quickly, ceev Richard Ellis Investors. 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:52.840 I can't pay my rent. One moment please. 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.400 Now there's your podcast. I mean you've always worked in 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:57.120 the voice area. 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.400 Clearly that was your early training. 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.320 Yeah, and mine was reading aloud in sixth grade, which 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:04.720 was my favorite. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:04.840 Thing to do. 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:05.120 Oh. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.520 You love to be called on because they would just 0:02:07.600 --> 0:02:09.600 go up and down the road. There's no way. We 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:11.880 haven't talked about this, but I would just I would 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:13.359 go pick out the paragraph that. 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.040 Would be mine. Practice, practice, not too much, not too little. 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:19.120 So you didn't know, you didn't listen to what not 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.520 a word? You knew what was that was none of 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:23.639 my business. I was on that my. 0:02:23.680 --> 0:02:25.000 Paragraphs, that's why. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:27.959 That's yeah, and you killed it every time. I was 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:29.920 very proud of my reading skills. 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.520 Oh yeah, it's nice and smooth, no trips. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:35.360 Yeah, Janet, for every every bad thing she did, she 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:40.000 fucking she'd tell you to read real good the basics. 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:43.600 She covered those basics. Three hots and a cot and 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:46.200 a book that you could actually read for yourself. 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.120 Belated birthday, Happy birthday. 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:54.000 I just I just plopped a fucking little gift wrapped 0:02:54.639 --> 0:02:57.280 gift in front of Karen for her birthday. 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:02.320 I will tell you listener, it's heavy, it's wrapped in gorgeous. 0:03:01.720 --> 0:03:08.160 So you I saw it. It's from Etsy. I it is. 0:03:08.120 --> 0:03:11.160 A diet coke ash tray. Ladies and gentlemen. It is 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:15.960 hue so beautiful. It looks like handpainted. But then underneath some. 0:03:16.000 --> 0:03:18.200 Clear read the maker on the back. 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.040 Oh, the maker is where w are your snacks? 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:25.480 And so she has You can get that in like 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.640 mine would obviously be. It's a potato chip with crumb 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:29.880 fresh and caviar on it. 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:32.799 Oh, you can get hot dog, you can get. 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:35.040 Mine would obviously be who are you? 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:39.960 Who are you? Orange County? That is caviar is like 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:41.800 my like favorite. 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.960 Mine would obviously be a gold bar cottage cheek. 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:49.760 I don't know why it's just like so. 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.119 But it's basically looking at something that makes your mouth 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:55.480 immediately water or makes your thing though. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.320 That's my jam, that's your identity. So diet coke, a 0:03:58.440 --> 0:03:59.880 can of diet coke. I saw that. 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:01.080 I was like, I have to get up for caring. 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:02.400 It could be a catch all. You don't have to 0:04:02.440 --> 0:04:03.920 ash and you don't have to take up smoking. 0:04:04.200 --> 0:04:06.600 Oh, but I have to. Now that you've given me this, 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:08.880 you've required it, and I'm going to go right back 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:10.320 to the capris. They're thin. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.120 Oh sure, they're easy to smoke. 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:16.520 Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, look up nineteen eighty eight Caprice cigarettes. Oh, 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:19.320 thank you so much. That's a perfect gift. 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:19.760 Yeah. 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.080 Now I have a gift for you that I realized 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.599 the last time we talked about birthday gift giving. You 0:04:24.640 --> 0:04:27.040 were like, it's not my birthday yet, but I was like, oh, 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:28.920 just we're going to give each other a gift at 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:29.640 the same I like. 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.760 An in between things because our birthdays are like almost 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:32.400 a month apart. 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:36.039 Yeah, so yeah, a month and a decade, a month 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.040 and a decade, yeah, wow, almost exactly ten years apart. 0:04:39.120 --> 0:04:41.159 We're generation apart. Wow. 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:43.520 I think that's the hook of this podcast, right, no 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:44.159 one's caught on. 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:45.160 That's true. 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:46.480 It's like old and young. 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:47.480 You know. 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.760 What I was thinking about too, is like the fact 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.800 that we started this podcast when we barely knew each other, 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:55.080 so we were getting to know each other at the 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.120 same time the audience was getting Yeah, got to know 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.880 us that way. If we had already known everything about each. 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:02.560 Other, it would all be facade. 0:05:02.720 --> 0:05:05.880 Yeah, So I think that's the secret sauce. So I 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:06.560 hate that term. 0:05:06.720 --> 0:05:09.320 Well should we call it the Thousand Island dressing of 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:09.880 our souls? 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:11.520 I agree? 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.359 And I also think that we kind of knew it, 0:05:14.440 --> 0:05:17.160 but we also didn't know it. I think we both 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:20.000 had that like we're grabbing hands and jumping off this cliff, 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:23.080 which other people wouldn't have done totally. And I think 0:05:23.120 --> 0:05:26.120 so there was a feeling of that just discovering this now, 0:05:26.360 --> 0:05:28.640 but the feeling of that of like, she's up for 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:30.120 this whatever, this. 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:32.440 Thing is just up for it. Yeah, I'm game. 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.839 Yeah, thank god, thank god. 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.599 And that's this podcast. Well, thanks for listening, goodbye. 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.279 This is our way of saying we quicked done. 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:42.560 We both walk out. 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:43.960 That's it. 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:45.080 Fade to black. 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:48.239 Also, just point out that it has been ten years, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.800 but the last time we recorded our episode was almost 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:51.560 two hours long. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:51.880 I know. 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:53.839 So the idea when people are like, aren't you going 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:55.800 to run out of stuff? It's like you would think 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:56.279 we would. 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.640 Today I'm doing this story that like means so ten 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:01.720 years and I'm finally doing this story that means so 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.599 much to me. It's not like I found the story 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.599 and like, yes, another one. It's like they can still 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.800 be so important and meaningful and shit, Unfortunately, there's just 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:10.720 a never ending. 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:14.720 Yes, there's bad hooray of this parade of humans. 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.000 That's right, that's the name of the episode. Oh, that's right. 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:22.000 I wanted to ask everyone if they know that we 0:06:22.160 --> 0:06:25.719 name every episode after some ridiculous thing we say in 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.080 the episode, and that's like obvious to everyone, but I 0:06:29.120 --> 0:06:30.680 was like, what if they don't know that? So, like, 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:32.800 you got to find the moment we say the dumb 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:36.760 ass thing that we name the episode. It's like a 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:38.760 little east eg Yeah, and then everyone knows. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.600 And then if you figure it out, we'll send you 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.400 an easter egg in the mail from this last Easter. 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:49.120 They don't they smell really bad, but but that's your gift. Yeah, 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:52.360 you know, when we plan this show. There's all kinds 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.960 of futuristic, technical, Easter egg type thinking that we put 0:06:55.960 --> 0:06:56.400 into it. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.840 Totally. We love Easter Eggs. We're like a video game. Yeah, so, 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.960 I mean, this is a simulation. How could it not be. 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:05.599 I'll tell you the thing that the physicist said. Okay, 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:07.960 when I worked on the Time Travel show and somebody asked, 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:10.600 that was the first question we asked, and he said, 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:11.600 it doesn't matter. 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:15.480 Come on, that's not what I was expecting. 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.440 Because if it's a simulation, it's so good we don't 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:21.760 know or we're just catching on. But if it's a 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.480 good enough simulation that we don't know, then that idea 0:07:24.520 --> 0:07:26.679 that like I'm stuck in the back rooms or whatever 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.720 people get online about and weird in their head. It's like, 0:07:30.120 --> 0:07:32.880 it's better. It's better than that. Go to the beach 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.000 and then think about the simulation. 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:42.360 Okay, go now, okay, oh oh okay, oh oh oh shit. 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.400 Okay a second. Well, first, fucking New MFM animated. 0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:47.400 Oh my god, that's right. 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:49.440 I haven't watched it yet. Of you, neither of us. 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:51.520 Have seen this, and so we thought it'd be fun 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:53.720 to show you at the same time as we are 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:55.400 seeing it. For the first time ourselves. 0:07:55.560 --> 0:07:59.960 Our friend Nick Terry, by his own free will, Yeah, 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.920 makes these incredible animations based on some dumb fucking thing 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:05.520 that we've said. This is Starnada many f seventy eight. 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:08.560 It's called Drama meine. Let's if you're not watching it 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:09.720 on Netflix. 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:11.720 Please do or go look it up, and now we're 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.800 going to watch it for the first time right here. 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.520 It was summer of two thousand and five and I 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:19.880 was eight years old when we took a family vacation 0:08:20.080 --> 0:08:24.160 to Yosemite and San Francisco. While in San fran we 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.120 got a boat tour that took us past Alcatraz and 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:28.800 to some other island close by. 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:30.320 What is that, Marin. 0:08:30.720 --> 0:08:33.160 I don't remember there being a two island stop for 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:35.280 the Alcadras tour, but I haven't been there. 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:36.200 Alcatraz too. 0:08:37.640 --> 0:08:42.880 It's smaller and hipper, and there's a disco. There's an 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:47.160 amazing night life on Alcatrazdo Okay. My dad was really 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:49.360 nervous that I was going to get seasick, so he 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:51.920 gave me three dramamine and we bordered the boat. 0:08:52.000 --> 0:08:52.160 Yeah. 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:54.319 It turns out that the serving size of dramamine for 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.840 an eight year old is half a pill. So I 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.800 was knocked the fuck out, Ellia, my dad happens to 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.800 be a fireman. Yeah, and it says he's retired. Now, 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.160 this is so classic. So he walked around the island 0:09:07.720 --> 0:09:11.360 Alcatraz with my sleeping eight year old body thrown over 0:09:11.400 --> 0:09:14.760 his shoulder in a fireman's carry. So can I just 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:15.439 stop here. 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:15.760 To tell you this? 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:19.520 And this is the most dad life thing I will 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.280 ever tell you, which is that at night when we 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:25.280 were little, my dad, you could do the fireman's carry, 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:28.000 You could do sack of potatoes, or you could ride 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.120 a horse to bed. Those are the three ways we 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:31.040 got carried to bed. 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:32.560 You gotta pick which one. 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.720 Yeah, that's so cute. So fireman's you're just bent over 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:39.480 his shoulder, sack potatoes, he's holding you buy rings. 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:41.800 In your mind. Oh my god. 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.080 But then the horse You got on back and put 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:46.840 your hand over his mouth to feed the horse, and 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:48.960 he ran down the hallway and threw you on the bed. 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:52.240 Can you do it? Can I have that? I love? 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.600 That might be the greatest privilege. 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:58.280 Yeah, having a firefighter dad, Oh my god. 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:00.440 So that's I think this one gets me as actually, 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:03.280 because he just basically like every fireman's like, we're just 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.520 going to solve this problem, okay. So he would occasionally 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:09.040 stop and wake me up to eat ice cold drink 0:10:09.120 --> 0:10:13.040 water with my eyes closed. My mom and brother took 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:18.000 normal pictures and occasionally included me weekend of Bernie a picture. 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.400 Oh my god, Oh my god, it's the best picture too. 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.560 The only thing that I actually remember about that day 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:25.880 is waking up on a park bench next to a 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:27.720 dog wearing sunglasses. 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.720 Oh she's awakening. Oh god, she woke up. 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:32.680 At the end of all that. 0:10:32.720 --> 0:10:45.440 Was like, hey, scene, Wow, what a joyful thing. 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:48.560 I completely forgot that we knew what that little girl 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:50.640 looked like. That's why the headband was so funny. 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:50.880 To me. 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:53.040 It looked we have an actual photo of her. Well, 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.760 that was from Lizzie originally Lizzie. I hope this is 0:10:56.800 --> 0:10:59.360 bringing you so much joy. You now have a character 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.400 in the Nick Harry MFM animated universe. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.040 Based off of you as a child, like the real 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.520 photo of you. God, yeah, so special. I love it 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:08.600 so much, so good. That was so funny. I was 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.520 wondering if your dad was gonna throw me over her 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:12.400 shoulder that would have been raped. 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:14.840 Oh that's right to give you what you want, because 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:17.959 I was like, can I do it? And Jim's like, no. 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:19.920 I only have this one thing, which is the funny 0:11:20.160 --> 0:11:23.160 interpretation as I saw it, you rode the horse like 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.120 kind of like a monkey on his back, so he 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:26.840 had your legs. 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:27.400 In his arms. 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.199 Okay, it wasn't because if you ran down a hallway 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.640 on your dad's shoulders, I think it's not a lamb 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:36.920 into the Georgia. But not to criticize after the fact. 0:11:37.040 --> 0:11:39.120 Sure that was a joy? Sure can we edit? Could 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.880 I get that? Edit it? My first round of notes? 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:44.560 Have this to say? No, Nick Terry, No, we love 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:46.000 you so much, Thank you so much. 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:49.040 What a joy? So good? 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:50.200 Okay, should we do network? 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.600 Yes, Highlight Podcast Network. It's the fucking best. 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.160 Only cool people like you wouldn't even believe it, so 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.160 it's called exactly right media. 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:00.560 Here are some highlights and one of the podcast that 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.440 is on this network is called The Knife. We Love It. 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:08.280 Hannah and Pasha continue their unbelievable story of Paul Franzak, 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:11.079 who is kidnapped from a Chicago hospital as a newborn 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.680 in nineteen sixty four. In this episode, as he digs 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.439 deeper into his identity, he uncovers secrets that completely rewrite 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:19.559 the story of his life. 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:21.319 So wild Yeah. 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.680 And then over on this podcast will Kill You, Aaron 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:26.120 and Aaron just keep bringing it. How do they even 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.960 think of these things? This time they tackle motion sickness. 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:31.640 Just to go along with that MFM animator Right, tell 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.400 me everything from boats to planes to the world's grossest 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:35.560 historical cures. 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:39.000 Yes, they break down why our brains and bodies completely 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.120 betray us and me while traveling. 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:43.800 Because you take three pills instead of half. 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:48.319 And on this week's That's Messed Up, Karen Lisa recap 0:12:48.360 --> 0:12:51.840 episode eighteen from season seven of Law and Order Resview 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.200 entitled Venom, and their special guest this week is Joe 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:56.199 Graffi SI. 0:12:56.120 --> 0:12:59.000 Plus over on Ghosted Roz is joined by drag queen 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:00.800 and comedian Juno Birch. 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.040 And then just really Quick Over in the merch corner, 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:06.520 the fan favorite married joggers Fuck you, I'm married or 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.319 officially back just in time for wedding seasons. 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.240 Right, grab a pair for yourself, your partner, or your 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.560 favorite legally bound murdering no at exactly rightstore dot com 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.280 and don't forget you can watch brand new episodes of 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:23.319 my favorite Murder and Buried Bones every week on freakin' Netflix. 0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:24.839 Here we are. Have you seen yourself? 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.000 Have you like been scrolling and just suddenly there's your 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.720 face or there's last podcast on the Lift Faces. 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:33.160 I came home to my own face because while I 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:36.240 was away, my dog sitter put on the podcast video 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.160 for the dogs, Oh my God, right, to see if 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:41.120 it would help dogs it. 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:44.800 We put on reggae because we heard that dogs like 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.440 chill out reggae. Yeah, but I should put my own 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:49.720 fucking voice on all theough Cookie lopspins more than me, 0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:51.400 so we should put on his podcast. 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:53.480 Yeah that's right. She's gonna be like this bitch is 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.960 still here? Where's my reggae? What to do? Tell Bob Marley? 0:13:59.120 --> 0:13:59.920 Okay your first? 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:00.680 I was first? 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.680 And wow, okay, so I've been studying up until, like 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:06.760 while I put my makeup on, to the minute that 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.960 I left the house. When we were in high school, 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:13.400 we spent a day or two in history class learning 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:14.880 about Vietnam, right. 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.840 Like, yes, the basics, sure breezed over it, moved on 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:19.400 for their lives. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:21.040 This isn't It sounds like a brag, but it's not 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.720 so I was really into the band Dead Kennedy's, and 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:26.280 because of that, they sing about a lot of historical stuff. 0:14:26.280 --> 0:14:28.400 So I was really into that van and then I 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.960 would go look up the things they were singing about, 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.560 and one of those things pot exactly. I literally was like, Mom, 0:14:34.600 --> 0:14:37.200 what's poll pot? Yeap turns out and the song is 0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.240 called Holiday in Cambodia, So I learned a bunch about it. 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:42.720 I was really into Vietnam. I read the book The 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:46.080 Killing Fields, watched the movie, and. 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.320 Through the Dead Kennedy's music, basically they kind of like 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:49.840 made you go, what is this about? 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:51.480 Why would they be singing exactly that? 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.640 I mean, they also have a song about them who 0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.920 was shot in San Francisco, Oh, Harvey Milk, Like they 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:01.520 just you learn about shit you wouldn't know. So pullpot Cambodia. 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:06.440 Let's start here. Okay, It's a Sunday in late February 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:11.120 nineteen ninety six, and we're in Los Angeles' Chinatown. It's 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:14.040 about eight forty five PM, and residents here something that 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:18.320 sounds like firecrackers then make a horrifying discovery in the 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.800 garage of a small apartment building. Neighbors find the body 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.560 of a beloved fixture in Los Angeles's Cambodian community and 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.640 in the Cambodian community worldwide. He had been shot getting 0:15:29.640 --> 0:15:32.640 out of his car and what police will ultimately decide 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.400 was a robbery gone wrong, but this will remain up 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.160 for debate. The reason for this is that the man 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.920 who had been killed had been a vocal critic of 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.560 Cambodia's government and a survivor of the genocidal Pullpot regime. 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:48.000 And just to give you some numbers, that led to 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.920 the deaths of an estimated one point five to three 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:53.040 million people, which was a quarter. 0:15:52.840 --> 0:15:54.600 Of the country's population. Wow. 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.280 This man had been a doctor, a forced laborer, a refugee, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:01.600 a community advocate, and in a surprise turn, an Oscar 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.640 winning actor. In fact, he was the first person of 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:07.920 Asian heritage to win the award. 0:16:08.080 --> 0:16:08.400 Wow. 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.200 May is AAPI Heritage month, and this is the story 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:17.400 the amazing life, brave actions and tragic death of Hang Noir. 0:16:18.040 --> 0:16:18.520 Wow. 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:20.880 The main source for the story is a documentary called 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.960 The Killing Fields of Doctor Hang s Nore fucking can't 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:26.960 recommend it enough. It tells you so much information. Also, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:29.760 you should watch The Killing Fields. It's incredible. He plays 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.400 the Cambodian journalist, right, and you know what I'm talking about, 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:34.560 like the main character basically. 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:36.000 So the rest of the sources. 0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.720 Can be found in the show notes. I've been wanting 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:39.480 to do this story for so long, but I just 0:16:39.480 --> 0:16:41.080 wanted to make sure I did it right. And I 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.760 really want to thank Ali Elkin, my researcher, for doing 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.280 such an incredible job of putting this together for me. 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.880 Nice Hang Noor is born into a reasonably well to 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:54.360 do family in Cambodia. His father has several agricultural businesses, 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:57.480 owning both rice fields and lumber yards. He's born in 0:16:57.560 --> 0:17:00.440 nineteen forty and his family lives in the country side, 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:03.920 so they are just living this traditional life that their 0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:07.439 families have for generations in the agricultural business. They're not 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:11.640 really far out from Panampen, the capital city, but their 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.520 life is just kind of a peaceful, everyday life. For 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.200 all of Hag's life, there is some degree of political 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.480 unrest in Cambodia, and all of it is stirred up 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:24.320 to varying extents by Western colonialism. So he's born under 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:27.760 French colonial rule in a land that is still called 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:31.240 at the time French Indo China, which also includes modern 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.359 day Laos and Vietnam, and throughout his childhood there's a 0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:39.320 gorilla effort to overthrow the French colonizers. Hag's family at 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.159 times is caught up in the middle of this. His 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:44.520 parents had been kidnapped for ransom by corrupt members of 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.879 both sides of this conflict on multiple occasions. 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.000 So that's what everyday life is like. 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.560 Multiple kidnapping, yes, horrifing. 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:54.440 Part of the reason for this is that Hag's father 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.560 is ethnically Chinese and his mother is part of the 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:01.280 Cambodian ethnic majority, which is the Kumayr, so they are 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:04.399 each victimized in turn for different reasons. But this is 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.719 ultimately a low level inconvenience in comparison to what happens 0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.960 later in Cambodia's history. As a teenager, Hag moves to 0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.320 PanAm Penn to try to shelter from all this unrest 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.280 in the countryside. He's very, very smart, like top of 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.120 his class. He eventually goes to medical school and while 0:18:20.119 --> 0:18:23.680 he's there he meets a fellow student named Hoy and 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.359 she's training to become a teacher and they fall in love. 0:18:26.520 --> 0:18:29.600 This is so truncated. Yeah, the documentary is incredible. Hang 0:18:29.680 --> 0:18:33.360 becomes a gynocologist, and in this time period, Cambodia becomes 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:37.600 independent and under the leadership of a monarch who then 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:40.760 becomes an elected leader. And at the same time, in 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:44.160 the late sixties and early seventies, the Vietnam War begins 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.480 and eventually the United States conducts a brutal bombing campaign 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.320 on parts of Cambodia along the border with Vietnam. And 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:55.600 so Ali added this famous quote in the research from 0:18:55.600 --> 0:19:00.240 Anthony Bourdain that says, quote, once you've been to Cambodia, 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.359 you'll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.560 with your bare hands. You will never again be able 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:10.240 to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating, 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:14.199 murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:17.000 Rose or attending some black tie affair for a new 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:22.199 glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did to Cambodia, 0:19:22.320 --> 0:19:24.920 the fruits of his genius for statesmanship, and you will 0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:27.880 never understand why he's not sitting in the dock at 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.000 the Hague next to Melosovich. 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:34.040 End quote. As in fucking War crimes. 0:19:34.240 --> 0:19:36.520 Everybody knows this already, but I just want to say 0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:39.320 it again, the loss of a mind and a spirit 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:43.000 like Anthony Bourdain, where he is a speaker of truth 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.119 to power in that way. There's not enough guys like 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.800 that anymore, where they're like no, fuck you and the 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:50.159 Truth times twenty. 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:51.639 Yeah, like this might hurt my career. 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:55.360 Yeah, but I'm actually Pallas, this is actually yes, exactly, 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.880 this is what we're supposed to be doing here totally. 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:01.119 Why are we pretending that this isn't discussed exactly? So 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:02.639 thank you to Ali for including that. 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:06.320 So with this in the background in nineteen seventy, when 0:20:06.359 --> 0:20:09.280 Hayng is thirty years old and a practicing physician, and 0:20:09.320 --> 0:20:12.560 he just has this like kind of normal life. He's 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.840 got friends, he's got family, he's got this girlfriend he loves, 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:19.760 he's a doctor. He has this mentality that everything is 0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.080 fine and the warring is going to come to a truce, 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.679 and like so many people, just pretends like it's not 0:20:26.800 --> 0:20:29.320 going to affect him and doesn't pay attention to it 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.560 at all. At this place, this is when Cambodia's government 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:36.720 is overthrown in a coup. So Cambodia's prime minister is 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.440 a man named Noro Dum Sianak, and he had originally 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.520 been appointed king by the French and then led Cambodia 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.520 to independence and abdicated his position. Then was elected by 0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:52.960 an overwhelming majority, so people seem pretty happy with this, 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.280 But then he goes out of town and there is 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.560 a coup that is orchestrated by two government officials who 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.760 are his opponents, and they only had support from a 0:21:02.800 --> 0:21:06.639 small minority of Cambodian elites, but some believe they were 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:10.480 aided by the Americans, probably true. So these officials take over. 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.119 They allow the Americans to invade the southern border with 0:21:13.280 --> 0:21:17.440 Vietnam to force out North Vietnamese fighters, and the influx 0:21:17.440 --> 0:21:19.919 of American money into Cambodia ushers in a time of 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:24.080 prosperity for some, including Hang's father, who buys a second 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:28.160 lumber mill. But in the countryside, poor and more rural 0:21:28.160 --> 0:21:33.080 Cambodians are coalescing their support around Sianak, now in exile 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.760 in China, who has always been He'd always been beloved. 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:39.639 People believed that he was appointed by God or that 0:21:39.680 --> 0:21:43.159 he was a god and behind this unlikely ally to 0:21:43.359 --> 0:21:47.080 the countryside and poorer Cambodians is the leader of Cambodia's 0:21:47.080 --> 0:21:49.119 communist party Polpot. 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:50.560 Here we are here, we are okay. 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:54.560 This group becomes the Kumer Rouge. They are actually ethnically 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.719 Kumer and then Rouge I think means red, right, so 0:21:58.200 --> 0:21:59.480 red is communists. 0:21:59.720 --> 0:22:00.120 Hey. 0:22:00.840 --> 0:22:03.399 So in nineteen seventy five, the Khmer Rouge, under the 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:07.920 leadership of Polepot but with the encouragement of Sianak, marches 0:22:08.000 --> 0:22:11.840 into PanAm Pen and deposes the new government. 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:12.560 They take over. 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.879 The regular Cambodians who are there are kind of rejoicing, 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.560 thinking that finally the Kumar Rouge are going to bring 0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.920 some kind of peace and normality, and quickly learn that's 0:22:21.960 --> 0:22:24.280 not true. It's a big part of the movie The 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:25.040 Killing Fields. 0:22:25.160 --> 0:22:25.280 Right. 0:22:25.520 --> 0:22:29.919 So, the Kumer Rouge launch a new ultra authoritarian communist 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:34.760 regime that they nickname Year zero, like shit is over. 0:22:35.119 --> 0:22:38.760 Everything you thought you knew done gone. The idea is 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:42.320 that the country is starting from scratch and educated people 0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:46.040 and professionals are specifically targeted to be killed or imprisoned. 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:50.959 So it basically comes this ultra ultra communist country and lifestyle. 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:54.600 All private property is outlawed, every aspect of life is 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:56.280 dictated by the pullpot regime. 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.320 There's no such thing as private property. There's no money. 0:22:59.400 --> 0:23:01.800 You can't even have your own cooking utensils and make 0:23:01.840 --> 0:23:04.280 yourself food. You have to eat in the big groups 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:09.200 because everyone is equal. You can't wear glasses. Husbands and 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:15.840 wives are separated, children are separated. It's just becomes this prism. Yeah, 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:19.200 there's no money, there are no clocks or calendars. Citizens 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.200 are just assigned to labor details and non Khmers especially 0:23:23.400 --> 0:23:26.040 become forced laborers, so they're all sent out of the 0:23:26.040 --> 0:23:30.920 big cities back into the countryside to work. When Ali 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:33.679 wrote note to Georgia, it feels important to mention that 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:36.240 this vision of communism is often used as a reason 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:39.440 why we shouldn't have any kind of socialized systems like healthcare. 0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.560 But this is authoritarianism, and whenever it's ideology is communist 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:46.920 or fascist, it can result in similar violence and wiping 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:48.320 out of civil liberties. 0:23:48.960 --> 0:23:50.800 Yeah, so thank you Ali for noting that. 0:23:51.000 --> 0:23:54.399 Yeah, you put authoritarianism on really anything, right, and it 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:55.880 turns into the exact same thing. 0:23:56.040 --> 0:23:58.000 So when all of this have begun, as I said, 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:02.360 Hang is a doctor at that moment that everything gets changed. 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.920 He is operating on a patient when the Khmer rouge 0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:09.240 storm the clinic that he's in. One operative holds a 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:11.639 gun to his head and asks him if he is 0:24:11.680 --> 0:24:15.560 the attending physician, which he is, but as I said, 0:24:15.600 --> 0:24:19.679 and he educated professionals are wiped out, so he lies 0:24:19.720 --> 0:24:22.600 and says the attending had just stepped out of the room, 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:26.280 essentially posing as a lower level clinic staffer, which saves 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:29.560 his life. He can't tell anyone he's a doctor. He's 0:24:29.600 --> 0:24:32.720 then caught up in a force evacuation from phenomen Pen 0:24:32.840 --> 0:24:36.400 and is separated from his girlfriend Hooi and his family 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:39.399 separated from everyone, so Hang lies about being a doctor. 0:24:39.440 --> 0:24:43.119 Since educated people are automatically just being killed, Hang, like 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:46.600 most other people, is assigned to an agricultural labor detail 0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:49.119 in which he is required to push. 0:24:48.880 --> 0:24:52.800 A plow through fields. That is a job that livestock would. 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:55.719 Have primarily done, and they just put people on the 0:24:55.720 --> 0:24:58.120 oxen cart to push through the fields. 0:24:58.200 --> 0:25:02.120 They turned the whole country in to slave labor. Slave labor. Yeah. 0:25:02.200 --> 0:25:04.480 During this period, between one point five and three million 0:25:04.520 --> 0:25:08.560 people are killed in Cambodia through execution, starvation, and disease. 0:25:09.280 --> 0:25:12.879 Hanging is tortured on multiple occasions, usually for stealing food 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:16.040 because he's starving. On one occasion, he's tied to a 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:18.920 tree overnight and he's bitten all over his body by 0:25:18.960 --> 0:25:22.360 red ants. And on another occasion, he and multiple other 0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:26.080 force laborers are put on crucifixes with their bare feet 0:25:26.119 --> 0:25:29.639 over smoldering fires, and he watches as a pregnant woman 0:25:30.320 --> 0:25:33.000 who is being punished the same way die while this 0:25:33.080 --> 0:25:36.520 is happening. And in the documentary he is interviewed in 0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:39.439 the States about what happened, what was that was like, 0:25:39.520 --> 0:25:42.080 and he gets into some really gory details in front 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:45.000 of this audience and it's just horrible. But it's so 0:25:45.160 --> 0:25:47.760 incredible that he is brave enough to tell the awful 0:25:47.800 --> 0:25:48.720 things that they did. 0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.679 To people when they're being punished like this, What was 0:25:51.720 --> 0:25:52.600 the justification? 0:25:52.800 --> 0:25:53.159 Do you know? 0:25:53.200 --> 0:25:55.879 Like, what was the point of putting those people up 0:25:55.880 --> 0:25:56.880 on crucifixes? 0:25:56.920 --> 0:25:59.600 Well, they stole food. This is your punishment. But this 0:25:59.640 --> 0:26:03.320 is awesome. So a lesson of everybody, everyone that this 0:26:03.400 --> 0:26:05.679 is what happens because everyone is equal, they get the 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:08.040 same amount of food. If you're stealing food, you think 0:26:08.040 --> 0:26:10.200 you're better than the government, you think you know more. 0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:12.679 You're punished crucifixion. 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:18.040 Yeah, Hang eventually does reunite with Hoy, who becomes pregnant. 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:21.880 There's already not enough food to sustain someone who isn't pregnant, 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:25.560 and Hoi begins to starve. When she's seven months along, 0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:29.240 she goes into early labor, and obviously there's no way 0:26:29.280 --> 0:26:31.760 to get her any kind of medical attention, and there's 0:26:31.800 --> 0:26:33.080 no medicine, there's no equipment. 0:26:33.160 --> 0:26:33.920 And here's the thing. 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:39.560 Hang is a trained gynecologist, and he could have operated 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:42.680 attempted to save her, though he has no safe tools 0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:46.199 or medicine, but the operation would likely kill her. He 0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:48.920 knew that she was going to die either way. If 0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:52.000 he attempted to save her, he would out himself as 0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:58.200 a doctor, so he couldn't do anything. And Hoi dies 0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:01.600 in his arms, and the baby dies too. After Hoy dies, 0:27:01.760 --> 0:27:03.520 Hang actively tries to get killed. 0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:06.520 He just does a fucking I mean, the guilt, the 0:27:06.960 --> 0:27:09.760 horror of that, Like when you're in a survival situation 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:12.360 like that and you're just having to make these calls 0:27:12.560 --> 0:27:14.160 that are beyond and. 0:27:14.119 --> 0:27:15.800 I feel like there's so many people, Like when we 0:27:15.960 --> 0:27:18.760 learn about Vietnam and Cambodia, it's like that's what their 0:27:18.800 --> 0:27:20.919 lives were like always, they were used to it, and 0:27:20.960 --> 0:27:23.320 I think people need to remember that that's not the case, 0:27:23.480 --> 0:27:25.520 like that it's the exact same thing, is if that 0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:28.520 sorted happened to us right now, like the horror that 0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:33.000 if you saw a pregnant woman being tortured is it's 0:27:33.040 --> 0:27:34.880 not like you've been seeing that since you're a child. 0:27:34.960 --> 0:27:36.600 You're used to it, which I think is sometimes the 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:40.480 justification in people's minds that it's like not as bad somehow. 0:27:40.160 --> 0:27:42.639 I feel like anytime that is what's coming out of 0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:43.359 your mouth. 0:27:43.240 --> 0:27:43.880 Right, that's what? 0:27:44.160 --> 0:27:46.560 Yeah, yeah, Toulate, what are you talking about? 0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:47.720 What are you talking about? That? 0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:51.360 And also just the oppression, that level of extreme and 0:27:51.480 --> 0:27:53.600 just like oppression as far as the eye can see, 0:27:53.680 --> 0:27:56.840 is such a hopeless, horrible situation. 0:27:56.400 --> 0:27:56.720 To be in. 0:27:56.800 --> 0:27:59.240 I really don't think I would try to survive. I 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:01.120 really don't think I would. I mean, I've thought about 0:28:01.119 --> 0:28:03.320 it so many times with like you know, the Holocaust too, 0:28:03.359 --> 0:28:05.600 It's like I don't think i'd be walking. 0:28:05.920 --> 0:28:08.560 I think i'd be Well, you say that, right, that's true. 0:28:08.720 --> 0:28:11.800 You say that, But then remember the guy that basically 0:28:11.920 --> 0:28:14.119 ran away from the Nazis and had to keep running 0:28:14.119 --> 0:28:17.200 for like four months or something like. That's a human 0:28:17.280 --> 0:28:20.119 survival instinct. That's what you do. And if you can 0:28:20.200 --> 0:28:22.120 get away, you do get away, and then you keep 0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:24.199 going and then you build from there, and then you 0:28:24.200 --> 0:28:26.800 get used to being scared, and then you help other 0:28:26.840 --> 0:28:29.680 people that are scared. And I mean that's what every 0:28:29.680 --> 0:28:30.959 immigrant story really is. 0:28:31.119 --> 0:28:32.440 Seriously, you don't let them win. 0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:34.480 Yeah, you go through the real shit and then you 0:28:34.520 --> 0:28:36.600 come back and help other people go through shit. Right, 0:28:38.160 --> 0:28:42.120 that's very, very dismissive of an experience. I'm two generations 0:28:42.160 --> 0:28:45.200 away from yeah, and have no idea in terms of 0:28:45.240 --> 0:28:49.800 what you are talking about. It is like, it's unbelievable. 0:28:49.160 --> 0:28:49.560 You know it is. 0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:52.360 This is going to sound so corny, but like generational trauma, right, 0:28:52.480 --> 0:28:54.920 we all know that's a thing that's passed down, But 0:28:55.680 --> 0:28:58.720 the fact that we're alive means there was also generational 0:28:59.000 --> 0:29:02.960 like hutzpah, Yeah, meaning as they were traumatized, they stayed 0:29:03.000 --> 0:29:06.880 alive and kept living and lived long enough to fall 0:29:06.880 --> 0:29:09.600 in love and have children. And that's why we're alive. 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:13.360 So we have generational trauma for sure, Yeah, but we 0:29:13.440 --> 0:29:16.320 also have whatever the fuck it was the chritzbah that 0:29:16.400 --> 0:29:17.720 kept them alive and. 0:29:17.640 --> 0:29:19.920 A perfect source of real gratitude. 0:29:20.040 --> 0:29:23.520 Yeah, for every day so Hoy dies and Hang is 0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:27.600 over life. He steals food at every opportunity, just trying 0:29:27.760 --> 0:29:30.440 to get killed, essentially, but somehow he makes it until 0:29:30.520 --> 0:29:35.040 nineteen seventy eight when the Vietnamese invade Cambodia. This sets 0:29:35.080 --> 0:29:38.000 off a decade of warfare between the Kumar Rouge and 0:29:38.040 --> 0:29:41.000 the Vietnamese. Now that there's the chaos of fighting to 0:29:41.160 --> 0:29:45.280 distract the Kumer Rouge, Hang has an opportunity to escape 0:29:45.960 --> 0:29:48.840 with a large group. He travels to the Thailand border. 0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:52.480 Out of the two hundred people that escape with his group, 0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:55.600 only seventeen people make it alive across the Thai border. 0:29:55.840 --> 0:29:58.120 The only living relative or person he knows at that 0:29:58.160 --> 0:30:02.680 point is his young niece named Sofia, and they escape together. 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:06.360 Once in Bangkok, Hang works as a volunteer doctor at 0:30:06.360 --> 0:30:09.240 a refugee camp. So despite all of these fucking horrors 0:30:09.240 --> 0:30:12.360 that he's gone through, all this PTSD, he still becomes 0:30:12.480 --> 0:30:15.440 He could just doesn't have to do anything but survive, 0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:18.000 but instead he volunteers to be a doctor at this 0:30:18.080 --> 0:30:18.800 refugee camp. 0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:20.280 I bet you there's a part of him that was 0:30:20.320 --> 0:30:21.760 just like, I finally get to. 0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:25.120 Be a doctor, what I'm made for. 0:30:24.840 --> 0:30:28.600 My skills, and like, actually do something about this horror 0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:29.520 that I'm surrounded by. 0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:32.000 Totally, Hang takes the only thing he has is a 0:30:32.000 --> 0:30:35.680 photo of Hoy, and when he escapes, he has it 0:30:35.720 --> 0:30:39.160 professionally colorized and puts it into a custom gold locket 0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:42.200 wears that around his neck so she can be close 0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:44.760 to his heart at all times. And then he and 0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:49.000 his young niece, Sofia move to the United States. So 0:30:49.320 --> 0:30:52.480 Hang and Sofia, who's a teenager, now settle in Los 0:30:52.480 --> 0:30:56.280 Angeles in nineteen eighty, almost their entire family, in addition 0:30:56.320 --> 0:30:59.640 to Hoy had been killed by the Kumer Rouge. He 0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:02.000 trained to take his board so that he can practice 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:06.280 medicine and works as a volunteer with refugees. So right 0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:08.680 around this time, and this is just he could have 0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:10.760 lived the rest of his life out like that, but 0:31:10.840 --> 0:31:14.440 for some reason, fate intervened and this Banana's thing happens 0:31:14.480 --> 0:31:18.280 to him. Right around the same time, director Ronald Joffey 0:31:18.480 --> 0:31:21.200 is preparing to make the film The Killing Fields. It's 0:31:21.200 --> 0:31:24.080 based on the true accounts of two journalists, one a 0:31:24.120 --> 0:31:29.520 Cambodian named derth Pran and one an American named Sidney Shanberg, 0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:31.800 and they had written the book The Killing Fields. And 0:31:31.840 --> 0:31:34.640 so the casting director, Pat Golden is working really hard 0:31:34.720 --> 0:31:38.520 to find the perfect person to play diff and hasn't 0:31:38.520 --> 0:31:42.160 had any luck. So she somehow finagls her way into 0:31:42.160 --> 0:31:44.680 a Cambodian wedding in order. 0:31:44.560 --> 0:31:47.760 To scout for her actor brilliant. 0:31:47.560 --> 0:31:50.160 Uh huh, And this is where she discovers Hang and 0:31:50.480 --> 0:31:53.640 he is just seems like a really charming, happy person. 0:31:54.120 --> 0:31:56.480 He's smiling and laughing a lot despite everything that happened 0:31:56.520 --> 0:31:59.400 to him. He's very outgoing and gregarious. He says when 0:31:59.400 --> 0:32:02.480 he was a kid, he was hyperactive, and he's just 0:32:02.560 --> 0:32:05.840 really likable, and so something about him catches her eye. 0:32:06.440 --> 0:32:08.800 It had never crossed Haang's mind to be an actor 0:32:09.360 --> 0:32:11.960 in Cambodia at the time, actors are not particularly well 0:32:12.000 --> 0:32:15.280 paid or respected. But he decides to go on an 0:32:15.320 --> 0:32:18.040 audition and just have a good time with it. He's like, 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:20.400 here's a weird opportunity to have in my life. 0:32:20.480 --> 0:32:23.000 Let's do it. And there's a video of his audition and. 0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:26.360 A man is a survivor of concentration camp. Right, He's 0:32:26.440 --> 0:32:26.800 just like. 0:32:27.000 --> 0:32:31.000 Sure, yes, and he blows everyone away with his raw emotion. 0:32:31.120 --> 0:32:34.560 And when you watch the documentary and you watch this audition, 0:32:34.760 --> 0:32:36.800 you completely get it and you see that what he 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:40.960 did is just took himself back to his actual pain 0:32:41.120 --> 0:32:43.680 and the actual things he experienced of the story that 0:32:43.720 --> 0:32:46.960 he is telling in this movie. It wasn't a hard 0:32:47.080 --> 0:32:49.080 stretch for him. Yeah, and he's able to do it. 0:32:49.120 --> 0:32:51.800 And so he's cast in the movie along with Sam 0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:53.560 Waterston our Law and Order. 0:32:54.160 --> 0:32:57.200 You know, the greatest man, the greatest actor ever to live, 0:32:57.240 --> 0:32:58.800 the greatest man ever to live. 0:32:58.920 --> 0:33:02.880 Here's a photo of them from the Killing Fields. Look 0:33:02.920 --> 0:33:06.320 at a young Samwise. I often, I know, damn. 0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:09.040 Ma, it's such an incredible movie, Like I get Full 0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:11.440 Metal Jacket, but this is the movie that you should watch. 0:33:11.520 --> 0:33:14.120 Also, just looking at his face. He had to go 0:33:14.720 --> 0:33:17.440 to a reenactment of a thing he actually lived through. 0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:19.760 Totally, and he just said he channeled it the whole time. 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:22.000 And also he was telling them what it was really 0:33:22.120 --> 0:33:22.880 like the whole time. 0:33:23.000 --> 0:33:23.320 Wow. 0:33:23.520 --> 0:33:25.920 On set, Hang has that same access to all his 0:33:26.120 --> 0:33:29.120 very real emotions and experiences, and he's able to consult 0:33:29.120 --> 0:33:32.800 with the actors who hadn't had direct experiences with the 0:33:32.880 --> 0:33:35.600 Kumaer Rouge. When the movie comes out in nineteen eighty four, 0:33:35.720 --> 0:33:38.960 it bears the brutal truth of the Kumaer Rouge regime 0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:42.400 to the world, and Hang is considered a front runner 0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:46.400 for the Best Supporting Actor Oscar and you know who 0:33:46.480 --> 0:33:51.040 he beat for Best Supporting Actor, somebody like Robert Duval 0:33:51.480 --> 0:33:52.280 John Malkovich. 0:33:52.400 --> 0:33:54.040 Oh, she was also in this movie. 0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:57.040 Oh but John Malkovich like one of the greatest trained 0:33:57.080 --> 0:34:01.080 actors of all time, and he went. And so that 0:34:01.200 --> 0:34:04.320 year's Oscars are held at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, which 0:34:04.360 --> 0:34:08.319 is downtown, and Hang and Sophia live in Chinatown, so 0:34:08.360 --> 0:34:11.240 they're like able to see where they're. 0:34:11.239 --> 0:34:13.160 Thinking, walk home, change their clothes. 0:34:13.800 --> 0:34:16.239 They are not in Beverly fucking Hills or Brentwood, Yes, 0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:18.640 so they vastly underestimate how long it's going to take 0:34:18.680 --> 0:34:20.759 them to get there in oscar traffic because they're like, 0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.439 it's five minutes away, it won't take us long. They 0:34:23.480 --> 0:34:26.120 just barely make it on time. And they didn't realize 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:29.480 that the Supporting Actor Award is the first presented award 0:34:29.480 --> 0:34:32.960 that night, So when they're announcing the nominees, they have 0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:34.640 to put a photo of him up because he's not 0:34:34.680 --> 0:34:37.440 even in his seat yet, like they can't pand. 0:34:37.320 --> 0:34:38.600 His seat literally that late. 0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:42.480 And as he's walking in, his name gets called and 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.040 he walks straight in and up to the fucking podium 0:34:45.239 --> 0:34:46.960 and gives like the speech will make you cry. 0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:47.680 It's so beautiful. 0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:52.279 Here's a photo of him winning. Oh, it's just such 0:34:52.280 --> 0:34:55.680 a beautiful moment. You can tell he's so tumbled by 0:34:55.880 --> 0:34:58.280 this opportunity to show what happened to his people. 0:34:58.560 --> 0:35:02.200 Yeah, and it's such a representative of like the Oscars 0:35:02.280 --> 0:35:04.640 is the world kind of right, and so then it's 0:35:04.680 --> 0:35:05.719 like underworld's good. 0:35:05.920 --> 0:35:06.760 Yeah. Yeah. 0:35:06.760 --> 0:35:09.080 And he brought his niece along. I think she was 0:35:09.120 --> 0:35:11.000 fifteen at the time, and she was a tomboy and 0:35:11.040 --> 0:35:12.279 he said to her, you need to get a dress, 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:13.400 and she's like, I don't want. 0:35:13.280 --> 0:35:16.640 To do this. She goes. Anyways, she's in the documentary. 0:35:17.280 --> 0:35:20.480 So in his acceptance speech, he says, quote, this is unbelievable, 0:35:20.680 --> 0:35:23.000 but so is my entire life. I wish to thank 0:35:23.120 --> 0:35:25.720 all members of the Motion Picture Academy for this great honor. 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:28.480 I think David Putnam, Roland Joffe for giving me this 0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:30.920 chance to act for the first time in The Killing Fields. 0:35:31.320 --> 0:35:33.920 And I share this award to my friend Sam Watterson, 0:35:34.239 --> 0:35:37.760 Dith Pran, Sydney Shamberg, and also Pat Golden, the casting 0:35:37.840 --> 0:35:40.600 lady who found me for this role. And I think 0:35:40.680 --> 0:35:42.960 Warner Brothers for helping me tell the story to the world, 0:35:43.120 --> 0:35:45.160 let the world know what happened in my country. And 0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:49.120 I thank God Buddha that tonight I'm even here, I'm 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:50.240 not giving it what it deserves. 0:35:50.640 --> 0:35:53.680 Well, you're not supposed to do it, That's okay, I 0:35:53.680 --> 0:35:57.480 feel that, Oh no, But I mean just everything about 0:35:57.560 --> 0:36:00.680 that is such a especially back then when it was 0:36:00.719 --> 0:36:02.920 like the time of our tours. And I mean I 0:36:02.960 --> 0:36:06.160 remember seeing The Killing Fields on Siskel and Ebert on 0:36:06.200 --> 0:36:08.239 the weekend because of course my parents always watched that, 0:36:08.280 --> 0:36:09.640 where I was like, oh, that's heavy. 0:36:09.640 --> 0:36:11.600 I don't think I could watch that whatever. 0:36:11.760 --> 0:36:15.480 I'm always like yeah, And that took over the zeitgeist 0:36:15.560 --> 0:36:18.800 essentially that year, and everyone paid attention totally. 0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:20.400 I mean, there were so many incredible movies coming out 0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:22.719 at the time, so the fact that it broke through 0:36:22.880 --> 0:36:23.960 was really says a lot. 0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:25.239 About all of it. 0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:30.400 Go to hell, John Malkovich, and that's our message this podcast. 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:33.040 There's a me message. Oh my god, Johnood, we love you. 0:36:34.920 --> 0:36:37.600 He's not here. He's not here, so mad. Yeah, but 0:36:37.640 --> 0:36:39.960 our friend was going to tell him. I'm sure they're 0:36:40.000 --> 0:36:42.640 from Paul. He's got to be friends with the fucking. 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:45.160 Those powerful character actors that know each other. 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:46.279 Yeah, they must come on. 0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:49.120 Okay, So Hayk gets more roles, but he also really 0:36:49.120 --> 0:36:51.880 dedicates himself to telling the world what happened in his country. 0:36:51.960 --> 0:36:54.759 He uses his famed get the message and goes on 0:36:54.800 --> 0:36:57.040 a lot of like talk shows. At this point in 0:36:57.040 --> 0:36:59.799 the late eighties and through the nineties, no one from 0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:03.160 the Khmer Rouge has been punished, and their predecessors continue 0:37:03.200 --> 0:37:06.200 to hold power in the Cambodian government, though the extreme 0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:10.560 and genocidal policies have been walked back a bit. Polpot 0:37:10.560 --> 0:37:14.880 goes into hiding. Hank testifies before Congress about his experiences 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:18.560 and is an extremely outspoken critic of the Cambodian government 0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:22.040 and one speaking engagement. He notes the brutality portrayed in 0:37:22.080 --> 0:37:25.400 the Killing Fields, then saying, quote, the killing fields isn't 0:37:25.440 --> 0:37:30.399 bad enough, suffering enough, bloody enough end quote. He does 0:37:30.400 --> 0:37:33.600 this work prolifically through the first half of the nineties, 0:37:33.680 --> 0:37:37.239 he's actively speaking out against the current Cambodian government, which 0:37:37.280 --> 0:37:40.640 again has vestiges of the old Kumer Rouge. In the 0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:43.960 wake of the fall of Western Communism, Cambodia is in 0:37:44.000 --> 0:37:47.600 a period of transition with some unrest, though nothing like 0:37:47.920 --> 0:37:52.400 what he had seen, and Sianok is still influential and 0:37:52.480 --> 0:37:56.560 somehow evades blame for the Kumer Rouge, even though he 0:37:56.640 --> 0:37:57.240 had lent. 0:37:57.080 --> 0:37:58.040 His support to it. 0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:01.200 So this brings us back to the night that Hang 0:38:01.480 --> 0:38:04.800 is killed outside his Los Angeles apartment building in nineteen 0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:07.400 ninety six, and this is like I remember hearing about 0:38:07.400 --> 0:38:10.839 this and it's just he's what the things he survived 0:38:11.239 --> 0:38:14.759 that will never understand and he comes to it's just 0:38:15.640 --> 0:38:19.120 like I remember feeling shame that we did this to 0:38:19.200 --> 0:38:23.120 him after what he survived, Like our country, my city 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:26.879 did this to him, you know. So Hang had been 0:38:26.920 --> 0:38:29.839 shot and he's found lying next to his car with 0:38:29.920 --> 0:38:33.520 his Rolex watch missing, but there's twenty nine hundred dollars 0:38:33.520 --> 0:38:36.800 in cash undisturbed in his car, and the immedia impression 0:38:36.840 --> 0:38:39.279 in the news and among Hang's neighbors is that he 0:38:39.320 --> 0:38:42.960 had been targeted by allies of the Cambodian government because 0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:46.439 of his outspoken criticism. They immediately knew he was trying 0:38:46.480 --> 0:38:49.400 to be silenced. Other people raise the possibility that organized 0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:52.560 crime could be involved, since Hang had several business interests 0:38:52.600 --> 0:38:55.880 in Cambodia, including his family lumber yard. 0:38:55.680 --> 0:38:57.839 Which he still had. So it's a surprise to. 0:38:57.800 --> 0:39:01.319 Everyone when three young men, all Asian American and all 0:39:01.360 --> 0:39:04.960 affiliated with a gang are charged with Hang's murder. All 0:39:05.000 --> 0:39:07.760 three men maintained that they had been about a mile 0:39:07.800 --> 0:39:09.319 away at the time of Hag's death. 0:39:09.920 --> 0:39:11.840 At trial, prosecutors. 0:39:11.200 --> 0:39:14.040 Say that the men had demanded Hang's locket with the 0:39:14.040 --> 0:39:16.160 picture of Hoy in it, that he still wore, and 0:39:16.200 --> 0:39:18.160 that he had refused to give it up, and this 0:39:18.320 --> 0:39:21.720 is why they killed him. That was the prosecution's story. 0:39:22.400 --> 0:39:25.560 People take issue with its argument because Hans's pockets were 0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:28.600 thought to have been undisturbed and there's twenty nine hundred 0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:31.480 dollars left in his car. All three men are found 0:39:31.480 --> 0:39:35.279 guilty on April eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, the same day 0:39:35.760 --> 0:39:38.719 Pole Pot dies in exile in the jungle on the 0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:40.080 Thai Cambodian border. 0:39:40.200 --> 0:39:43.480 Wow Yeah. After Hang's death, Dith Pran, the journalist upon 0:39:43.480 --> 0:39:46.959 whose story The Killing Fields is based, says quote, he's 0:39:47.000 --> 0:39:47.880 like a twin with me. 0:39:48.239 --> 0:39:51.240 He's my co messenger and right now I'm alone. 0:39:51.760 --> 0:39:52.400 End quote. 0:39:52.960 --> 0:39:55.680 There are no trials from members of the Khmer Rouge 0:39:55.760 --> 0:39:59.200 until the early twenty tens, when the UN holds them 0:39:59.200 --> 0:40:03.000 alongside the chem Bodian government. Three high ranking officials are 0:40:03.040 --> 0:40:06.120 sentenced to life in prison. During one of these trials, 0:40:06.200 --> 0:40:09.440 the official says that Hang Nor's murder had been ordered 0:40:09.480 --> 0:40:13.960 by the Kumer Rouge as retribution for his speaking out 0:40:14.040 --> 0:40:18.279 against the regime. An organization called the Innocent Center has 0:40:18.320 --> 0:40:20.399 taken up the case of one of the three men 0:40:20.520 --> 0:40:23.240 who had been convicted of his murder. After the release 0:40:23.239 --> 0:40:26.480 of The Killing Fields, hang had said quote, if I 0:40:26.600 --> 0:40:29.600 die from now on, okay, this film will go on 0:40:29.840 --> 0:40:30.960 for a hundred years. 0:40:31.760 --> 0:40:33.319 And that is the story of the. 0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:37.279 Life and legend of Cambodian American truth teller and hero 0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:38.480 Hang Nor. 0:40:38.960 --> 0:40:39.520 Wow. 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:42.200 I know, I almost did it at our LA live show, 0:40:42.239 --> 0:40:44.680 but I was like, it's too heavy. 0:40:45.120 --> 0:40:48.600 It's so heavy, I mean, but it's incredible. It's like 0:40:48.920 --> 0:40:51.560 that's what makes it like all of that, and then 0:40:51.600 --> 0:40:54.000 you walk straight into the oscars and win. What a 0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:55.520 life beyond. 0:40:55.520 --> 0:40:59.759 I mean, what an incredible life, and what a strong 0:41:00.400 --> 0:41:00.719 and what. 0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:05.279 A great example for Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage month. 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:09.480 Yes, I mean it is though it is. 0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:13.359 That's a great example of someone who's been through an 0:41:13.440 --> 0:41:18.400 absolute governmental nightmare, basically the fabric of reality falling apart 0:41:18.440 --> 0:41:22.879 around him, trying to just dying and losing everything, dying, 0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:27.879 being murdered, being murdered, and then being an immigrant where 0:41:27.880 --> 0:41:30.480 he just builds and builds and builds and builds and 0:41:30.520 --> 0:41:33.160 then comes back to do something about. 0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:36.440 It, totally doesn't just move on with his life. Incredible. Yeah, 0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:39.879 So hang Nor. 0:41:40.000 --> 0:41:42.120 Well, we are going to take a left turn. Please, 0:41:42.239 --> 0:41:44.120 I don't want to surprise you. But this is also 0:41:44.160 --> 0:41:48.000 based on the Dead Kennedy song. That's not true at all, 0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:52.520 and it's actually maybe the complete other end of the spectrum. 0:41:52.719 --> 0:41:56.520 This story is the main story. If you were a 0:41:56.640 --> 0:41:59.960 kid in the nineties and in elementary school a teacher 0:42:00.120 --> 0:42:04.080 read you a book about a family of pioneers. 0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:05.720 Christiane bears close. 0:42:06.239 --> 0:42:09.560 It's called Apples to Oregon by a writer named Deborah Hopkinson, 0:42:10.239 --> 0:42:13.399 and it follows an eighteen hundred's Midwestern family in their 0:42:13.400 --> 0:42:17.239 westward journey, and it is loosely based on the life 0:42:17.280 --> 0:42:21.040 of a successful horticulturalist who's also known as the Johnny 0:42:21.040 --> 0:42:24.080 apple Seed of the West. Oh yeah, there's the story 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:26.800 of his life. After all his pioneering days were over 0:42:26.840 --> 0:42:29.239 and his fruit trees were planted, he went into a 0:42:29.280 --> 0:42:33.600 different branch of life. He attempted to start what's been 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:38.080 described as a doomed Quaker sex cult. Oh dear, this 0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:43.320 is the story of horticulturalist Henderson Llewelling. Okay, are you ready? 0:42:43.360 --> 0:42:44.280 I'm so ready, Okay. 0:42:44.280 --> 0:42:48.560 Main sources used for today's story are reporting by Finn J. D. 0:42:48.800 --> 0:42:53.080 John from the Offbeat Oregon website, writing by Heather Arn't 0:42:53.120 --> 0:42:57.360 Anderson from Portland Monthly, and archival editions of the Iowa 0:42:57.600 --> 0:43:01.440 Journal of History and the Sacramento b your favorite newspaper. 0:43:02.080 --> 0:43:04.760 And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. 0:43:04.960 --> 0:43:08.600 So Henderson Lewelling's story begins in eighteen oh nine when 0:43:08.600 --> 0:43:11.600 he is born to a Quaker family in North Carolina. 0:43:12.200 --> 0:43:14.719 So this is one of those eighteen hundred stories that 0:43:14.760 --> 0:43:19.799 there's spotty reporting on some stuff. It's back far enough 0:43:19.800 --> 0:43:22.240 that it's like we're pretty sure that he blank blanklink. 0:43:22.239 --> 0:43:24.919 There's a lot of that kind of storytelling historic. It's 0:43:25.040 --> 0:43:29.439 very prehistoric in that it is like pioneer era life, right. 0:43:29.600 --> 0:43:32.360 Not a lot of when you're out on the prairie 0:43:32.640 --> 0:43:35.480 fighting for your life. Not a lot of diary keeping, 0:43:36.239 --> 0:43:39.200 not a lot of daily there's not a lot of journaling. 0:43:38.920 --> 0:43:41.319 A lot of sources to find the truth. 0:43:41.239 --> 0:43:42.960 We needed more scrap booking back then. 0:43:43.080 --> 0:43:45.240 Definitely we're blogging. 0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.680 Oh my god, just ofvlogging on a nice stone outside 0:43:48.680 --> 0:43:50.520 of town, down by the river. 0:43:51.000 --> 0:43:51.320 Okay. 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:53.920 So, when Henderson is in his teens, he and his 0:43:54.000 --> 0:43:58.560 family and many other Southern Quakers moved to Indiana, likely 0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:02.120 influenced by the Quaker community growing opposition to slavery, so 0:44:02.160 --> 0:44:05.040 they wanted to get out of the South. And when 0:44:05.040 --> 0:44:08.600 they moved to Indiana, Henderson's father opens a nursery and 0:44:08.719 --> 0:44:11.800 he and his brothers help run. It's the family business. 0:44:11.840 --> 0:44:15.080 He helps run it. He will later marry another Carolina 0:44:15.160 --> 0:44:19.719 born Quaker, her name is Elizabeth Presnell, and when he's 0:44:19.760 --> 0:44:23.560 in his twenties, Henderson opens his own nursery. So this 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:25.719 is a story for Janet. Oh my god, my mom 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:29.600 in love with this. She loves horticultures, such a horticulture 0:44:29.840 --> 0:44:32.440 in the eighteen thirties. When Henderson is in his thirties 0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:35.560 because he was born around eighteen hundred, he moves west 0:44:35.600 --> 0:44:39.560 again to eastern Iowa. So this is after the Blackhawk War, 0:44:39.920 --> 0:44:43.680 and the federal government had forcibly removed both the Sock 0:44:43.800 --> 0:44:47.160 and the Fox tribes from their land, and now they 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:52.000 were actively encouraging white settlers to come and basically settle 0:44:52.000 --> 0:44:54.800 that land by selling it to them for next to nothing. 0:44:55.560 --> 0:45:00.000 So the Llewellings benefit from that and they settle in Salem, 0:45:00.080 --> 0:45:04.720 Iowa again. Henderson opens a nursery. He offers high quality 0:45:04.760 --> 0:45:09.200 seedlings and grafted trees. So I know you know this 0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:11.960 because your Danet's daughter. But grafting is when you take 0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:15.200 the roots from a strong tree and you attach them 0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:18.120 to the shoot or a bud from another tree so 0:45:18.160 --> 0:45:21.920 that the produce is really good fruit. Your Frankensteining fruit trees. 0:45:22.000 --> 0:45:25.360 Essentially got it. It's what you did all summer, every summer. 0:45:25.600 --> 0:45:28.920 So as more settlers arrive in Salem, virtually all of 0:45:28.960 --> 0:45:31.919 them become Henderson's customers, because this is basically like they're 0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:36.359 settling this land and planting it, and he brilliantly or 0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:39.000 you know whether or not it was intentional. He's in 0:45:39.040 --> 0:45:42.480 this business that is always needed, like, no matter what, 0:45:42.600 --> 0:45:45.200 there's a demand for basically being able to grow your 0:45:45.200 --> 0:45:52.480 own food. So Henderson's grafted trees reliably generate so many cherries, apples, pears, 0:45:52.560 --> 0:45:56.240 plums and peaches that, per one source quote, the local 0:45:56.280 --> 0:45:58.320 market could not absorb the yield. 0:45:58.800 --> 0:45:59.040 Wow. 0:45:59.360 --> 0:46:02.480 So he's making it possible for everybody to live large. 0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:05.960 So his business is a massive success, and he and 0:46:06.040 --> 0:46:09.479 Elizabeth take this prosperity and they invest it into their home, 0:46:09.560 --> 0:46:12.400 but not in the way that you would think, not 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:16.840 the usual pioneer luxuries red velvet curtains and soap. Instead, 0:46:17.160 --> 0:46:20.759 they build trapdoors and hiding places and then offer it 0:46:20.800 --> 0:46:22.800 as a stop on the underground railroad. 0:46:22.920 --> 0:46:23.480 Wow. 0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:27.200 Because they are Quakers. Today that house is on the 0:46:27.280 --> 0:46:31.440 National Register of Historical Places. The problem is that when 0:46:31.520 --> 0:46:35.080 Lee Wellings Church learns that they are doing this for 0:46:35.280 --> 0:46:38.200 the people searching for freedom that way, they do not 0:46:38.360 --> 0:46:42.520 approve of it. Very Joel Osteen of them. So Henderson 0:46:42.520 --> 0:46:45.080 decides that he's going to leave that church and start 0:46:45.080 --> 0:46:47.520 his own church that is more full throated in its 0:46:47.600 --> 0:46:50.880 condemnation of slavery. So at some point in the eighteen forties, 0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:55.560 he opens the doors to his new place called Anti 0:46:55.640 --> 0:46:56.560 Slavery Friends. 0:46:57.200 --> 0:46:58.359 That's what he names his church. 0:46:58.400 --> 0:47:02.040 Straightforward, just like with the banner right over the front door, 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:04.200 people will come, and they did so. Now he has 0:47:04.360 --> 0:47:07.400 a successful business, he has a happy family, and he 0:47:07.440 --> 0:47:09.520 has the glowing respect of his community. 0:47:10.160 --> 0:47:13.560 But he wants more, as they always do, so he 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:15.960 literally guys, guys, stop it. 0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:19.040 They can't help it, especially if they read pamphlets, which 0:47:19.440 --> 0:47:23.279 was the vlogging of the pioneer days. So Henderson reads 0:47:23.280 --> 0:47:26.520 some pamphlets about the Lewis and Clark expedition that went 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:28.520 from eighteen oh four to eighteen oh six. I say, 0:47:28.560 --> 0:47:31.439 as if I knew that, and he finds it all 0:47:31.600 --> 0:47:36.759 very romantic, the adventure and the discovery. More importantly, he 0:47:36.840 --> 0:47:39.600 learns that despite the fact that the Pacific Northwest has 0:47:39.719 --> 0:47:42.799 very fertile land, it doesn't have a variety of high 0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:46.600 quality fruit trees growing there. So instead of settling into 0:47:46.600 --> 0:47:49.320 the life that he's built in Iowa, he starts thinking 0:47:49.760 --> 0:47:53.080 about starting it all over again in the Pacific Northwest. 0:47:53.800 --> 0:47:56.040 No one can understand why he would want to give 0:47:56.160 --> 0:47:59.319 up everything and start over in an unfamiliar place for 0:47:59.440 --> 0:48:02.839 a third time. But to me, there's his trauma right there. 0:48:02.920 --> 0:48:05.239 He now needs to keep on doing. Yeah, that's how 0:48:05.280 --> 0:48:08.200 he's in control. But Henderson will tell a friend quote, 0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:10.680 it makes no difference how much a man has around him. 0:48:10.920 --> 0:48:13.120 If he is not satisfied, he will go off and 0:48:13.239 --> 0:48:17.040 leave it. So in April of eighteen forty seven, thirty 0:48:17.120 --> 0:48:20.360 nine year old Henderson and his wife and their eight children, 0:48:20.840 --> 0:48:24.320 along with several other pioneering islands, set out in a 0:48:24.360 --> 0:48:27.880 wagon train for the two thousand mile journey to Oregon. 0:48:27.920 --> 0:48:31.080 It's too many, and it's just a good things. 0:48:31.160 --> 0:48:34.520 It's just someone's pregnant and like just having the worst 0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:36.319 time of her life. 0:48:36.520 --> 0:48:36.959 Keep going. 0:48:37.520 --> 0:48:41.080 And it's hot or it's cold, or it's middle You've 0:48:41.080 --> 0:48:45.280 always got a bonad on always. So the Llewelling party 0:48:45.320 --> 0:48:48.719 consists of four wagons total, but Henderson has filled one 0:48:48.760 --> 0:48:52.880 of those wagons with seven hundred saplings and grafted trees 0:48:53.280 --> 0:48:56.280 so he can start his new nursery in Oregon. Author 0:48:56.560 --> 0:48:59.520 Heather Aren't Anderson writes, quote, it was an insane plan 0:48:59.719 --> 0:49:02.520 with little chance of success. Everyone mocked him for it. 0:49:02.680 --> 0:49:06.080 He did it anyway, those mockers. So the blue Willing 0:49:06.160 --> 0:49:10.000 family makes the brutal westward journey across the Missouri River 0:49:10.440 --> 0:49:13.880 over the Rocky Mountains. So they've got their pioneer wagon. 0:49:14.200 --> 0:49:16.560 Some of these trees are stretching out of the Pioneer 0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:21.000 wagging like four feet. It's so clunky and so bad 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:24.640 for that kind of travel. It requires constant upkeep. It's 0:49:24.719 --> 0:49:27.920 also filled with soil, like the trees are planted in 0:49:27.960 --> 0:49:31.520 back of the wagon, so it's incredibly heavy. There's genuine 0:49:31.560 --> 0:49:34.560 concern that Henderson's oxen are going to give out under 0:49:34.640 --> 0:49:39.240 this wagon's weight. Members of the wagon train repeatedly suggest 0:49:39.280 --> 0:49:40.920 that he ditches nursery wagon. 0:49:41.239 --> 0:49:42.360 No, no, it's the whole point. 0:49:42.440 --> 0:49:44.799 It's the whole point. But else they're just like, come on, 0:49:45.160 --> 0:49:48.160 come on, there's trees everywhere, which you have to admit. 0:49:48.160 --> 0:49:50.680 It'd be like bringing a big wagon a dirt and 0:49:50.760 --> 0:49:52.399 just be like, we have to bring this good dirt. 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:55.440 Is the dirt, This is the Iowa dirt. Henderson is committed, 0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:59.759 and seven months, very long months after leaving Iowa and 0:49:59.800 --> 0:50:03.800 no November of eighteen forty seven, the Llewellings finally arrive 0:50:04.400 --> 0:50:08.240 in oregons will Lammett Valley. Against all odds, the trees 0:50:08.280 --> 0:50:09.640 and saplings make it too. 0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:11.960 I've been there. It's so gorgeous, so beautiful. 0:50:12.160 --> 0:50:13.480 Yeah, that's where all the good stuff is. 0:50:13.600 --> 0:50:14.160 Yeah. 0:50:14.239 --> 0:50:17.439 So they settle just south of Portland. Henderson immediately gets 0:50:17.440 --> 0:50:20.960 to work clearing his property of the large fir trees 0:50:21.000 --> 0:50:22.680 that are on it so that he can lay out 0:50:22.680 --> 0:50:25.560 his nursery, which will end up being another huge success 0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:28.960 and it will be the first grafted tree nursery on 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:32.160 the Pacific Coast. It seems like I'm really being an 0:50:32.239 --> 0:50:36.040 arborist or something, and it's just part of this story 0:50:36.120 --> 0:50:38.760 because I'm going to pretend like I am just super 0:50:38.760 --> 0:50:42.520 into trees. Just pretend like that's always been my personality 0:50:42.520 --> 0:50:43.640 all the way up until this point. 0:50:43.719 --> 0:50:46.800 Definitely, you're a tree in influencer. Yeah, everyone knows that. 0:50:46.800 --> 0:50:48.520 That's when you find out that I've been dating a 0:50:48.560 --> 0:50:51.000 guy that's really into trees, and then suddenly I am too. 0:50:51.520 --> 0:50:55.120 That's so hot. Just a big tree guy, a lumberjack, 0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:56.920 just so sort of a I don't. 0:50:56.800 --> 0:50:59.799 Know, landscaper of some kind. But point of all of 0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:02.759 this is this man had a career. He also had 0:51:02.760 --> 0:51:06.560 a very strong spiritual life. He was living in his 0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:10.160 very settled ways in many ways, but then in eighteen 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:13.160 fifty one, his thirty five year old wife, Elizabeth, the 0:51:13.160 --> 0:51:17.040 mother of his now ten children, dies of complications during 0:51:17.080 --> 0:51:23.120 her eleventh pregnancy. So some speculate that this loss changes him, 0:51:23.320 --> 0:51:26.640 with one Luwelling family historian writing quote, his life sort 0:51:26.680 --> 0:51:28.960 of fell apart, and he was adrift without an anchor, 0:51:29.320 --> 0:51:32.640 seeking for something to fill that void and never finding 0:51:32.680 --> 0:51:36.160 it end quote. So Henderson Lewelling is grieving, but he 0:51:36.280 --> 0:51:39.080 is also in the most prosperous era of his life, 0:51:39.440 --> 0:51:42.000 producing and selling sought after trees that help build up 0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:46.160 Portland's settler economy. But of course he wants more, and 0:51:46.200 --> 0:51:48.800 that's when he learns it. Down in California's mining towns, 0:51:48.880 --> 0:51:51.879 there's such a huge demand for reliable, high quality fruit 0:51:51.880 --> 0:51:56.319 trees that people will pay one eighteen fifties dollars for 0:51:56.400 --> 0:52:01.240 an apple tree seedling, but essentially today's seedlings in today's 0:52:01.280 --> 0:52:04.200 twenty twenty six money costs ten dollars. Oh wow, So 0:52:04.320 --> 0:52:07.560 that's how blowing, you know. It's just basically the seller's 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:11.319 market in the California mining towns. So Henderson is now 0:52:11.320 --> 0:52:14.040 in his mid forties. He sells his Oregon business to 0:52:14.120 --> 0:52:17.040 a family member, and he heads south in eighteen fifty four, 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:19.840 he winds up in the Bay Area and establishes a 0:52:19.960 --> 0:52:24.480 major nursery that he names Fruitvale, in property that has 0:52:24.520 --> 0:52:27.920 since been absorbed into the city of Oakland. You know 0:52:27.960 --> 0:52:31.120 the Fruitvale Station, which is the infamous train station where 0:52:31.120 --> 0:52:34.040 the shooting took place. So Fruitvale was a big part 0:52:34.120 --> 0:52:37.960 of the city of Oakland's kind of establishment, and Henderson 0:52:38.000 --> 0:52:40.400 is in the center of it, cultivating hundreds of thousands 0:52:40.440 --> 0:52:44.040 of fruit trees, apricots, grapes, apples, cherries, all to be 0:52:44.120 --> 0:52:48.520 planted throughout California. One write up notes, quote again, Henderson 0:52:48.600 --> 0:52:51.200 was a no small measure responsible for the beginning of 0:52:51.239 --> 0:52:55.319 the great fruit industry of another Pacific Coast state, an 0:52:55.320 --> 0:52:58.399 industry which has brought more wealth to California than all 0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:00.000 the gold the state has produced. 0:53:00.239 --> 0:53:02.799 I grew up in Orange County. I was aware of 0:53:02.840 --> 0:53:04.359 it as a young child. 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:07.200 I mean everywhere. And it's kind of funny because then 0:53:07.239 --> 0:53:10.600 when you fly up to the Pacific Northwest, like one 0:53:10.600 --> 0:53:12.200 of the first things you hear about are like the 0:53:12.239 --> 0:53:15.200 Marion Berris or the you know, like all of that 0:53:16.600 --> 0:53:20.239 and farmland that's in the Willammette Valley totally so once 0:53:20.280 --> 0:53:23.120 he gets to California, though, Henderson kind of starts going 0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:27.320 through a reinvention. He's perfectly middle aged, he's a widower, 0:53:27.400 --> 0:53:29.520 he's been working his ass off all his life, and 0:53:29.840 --> 0:53:33.319 he's been a Quaker. But now he's crossing paths with 0:53:33.520 --> 0:53:38.080 radical thinkers, including people who are in his own Quaker community, 0:53:38.360 --> 0:53:42.319 but that are now experimenting with new belief systems like 0:53:42.719 --> 0:53:45.920 the utopian movement, which was the idea that a perfect 0:53:45.960 --> 0:53:50.120 society could exist, or the free love movement, which posits 0:53:50.160 --> 0:53:53.720 that marriage is oppressive and sexist and that sexual norms 0:53:53.760 --> 0:53:58.840 should be looser, or the alternative health movements like vegetarianism, 0:53:59.080 --> 0:54:03.640 where people fall for both health reasons and moral reasons, 0:54:03.760 --> 0:54:07.760 or they moralized it. And of course it's the eighteen fifties, 0:54:07.800 --> 0:54:10.799 so you got to have spiritualism, I was wondering. Yeah, yeah, 0:54:10.840 --> 0:54:13.200 it's right in there, the belief that the living can 0:54:13.239 --> 0:54:16.120 contact the debt. So there's a ton of overlap in 0:54:16.200 --> 0:54:20.600 all these ideas. They're all zeitgeisty, particularly in the Bay Area, 0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:23.760 which even then had a reputation for being open minded. 0:54:23.960 --> 0:54:26.560 So it's easy to see why Llewelling finds all of 0:54:26.600 --> 0:54:29.959 this to be appealing as a fierce abolitionist, the idea 0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:33.640 of liberating people from unjust institutions is important to him, 0:54:34.000 --> 0:54:36.520 and then the idea of personal liberation as a central 0:54:36.560 --> 0:54:40.000 tenant in the free love movement. He's also kind of 0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:42.920 a single guy out there, like, hey, what about what 0:54:42.960 --> 0:54:46.839 if this was cool to the average pioneer. Vegetarianism might 0:54:46.840 --> 0:54:49.839 seem weird, but it's a long held Quaker tradition, so 0:54:49.880 --> 0:54:53.479 it's not weird to him. And of course Henderson would 0:54:53.520 --> 0:54:56.760 embrace spiritualism while coping with the death of his wife, 0:54:57.320 --> 0:54:59.800 and that is kind of the gateway to the broader 0:55:00.120 --> 0:55:04.439 idea of utopia, where society and the self are things 0:55:04.480 --> 0:55:08.280 that can be harmonized brought into harmony. But at that point, 0:55:08.360 --> 0:55:10.920 this is where things go very far away from the 0:55:11.000 --> 0:55:15.080 Johnny Appleseed kind of folk hero stuff and into stranger terrain. 0:55:15.560 --> 0:55:18.360 Because now it's the late eighteen fifties, Henderson's in his 0:55:18.440 --> 0:55:22.280 late forties. He either starts this group or he links 0:55:22.400 --> 0:55:26.359 up with this San Francisco based group called the Harmonial Brotherhood, 0:55:26.960 --> 0:55:29.920 and there are sources that say he started it, but 0:55:30.080 --> 0:55:33.799 it isn't totally clear. But basically, there's no intricate day 0:55:33.840 --> 0:55:37.160 and day out details of the Harmonial Brotherhood. But what 0:55:37.239 --> 0:55:40.640 we do know is it's made up of about twenty people, men, women, 0:55:40.760 --> 0:55:44.239 and children, and many of them come from Quaker backgrounds, 0:55:44.640 --> 0:55:47.759 and now they subscribe to a blend of spiritualist, utopian 0:55:47.800 --> 0:55:52.759 and free love beliefs just like him, fun right and plums. 0:55:53.400 --> 0:55:56.600 So in the pursuit of personal quote harmony, they follow 0:55:56.640 --> 0:56:00.840 strict vegetarian diet, they swear off caffeine, and they favor 0:56:00.920 --> 0:56:05.799 spiritualism adjacent treatments of the day, like hydropathy, which is 0:56:05.840 --> 0:56:08.760 basically baths, wraps, cold plunges. 0:56:08.880 --> 0:56:12.280 Honestly, it sounds way better than some of the movements 0:56:12.280 --> 0:56:15.279 and religious fucking evangelicals from back then. 0:56:15.520 --> 0:56:17.920 Hell yes, it sounds like goop. 0:56:18.960 --> 0:56:20.040 I mean, am I wrong? 0:56:20.160 --> 0:56:23.480 Or they're definitely right about a lot of it and 0:56:23.680 --> 0:56:25.680 kind of right headed about a lot of it. 0:56:26.080 --> 0:56:30.200 But what usually happens, you know, Jim Jones comes along. 0:56:30.280 --> 0:56:33.680 There's always someone with transition lenses is going to fucking 0:56:33.800 --> 0:56:38.000 ruin your utopia. So the Brotherhood's hydropathy practitioner is a 0:56:38.080 --> 0:56:43.279 man who is either a spiritualist preacher or a blacksmith, 0:56:43.480 --> 0:56:47.439 depending on who you're reading, and he also was once 0:56:47.520 --> 0:56:49.680 a circus performer, so he can do it all. 0:56:49.920 --> 0:56:50.440 Definitely. 0:56:50.960 --> 0:56:53.840 The one thing he's not trained as is a formal 0:56:54.040 --> 0:56:57.800 medical physician, and yet he is referred to as doctor 0:56:57.880 --> 0:57:00.480 Tyler or doctor T. And he's the one that the 0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:03.080 water treatments are all coming from Doctor T. Okay, So 0:57:03.160 --> 0:57:05.759 there's an idea that doctor T kind of started this 0:57:05.840 --> 0:57:08.600 group because he's got all the treatments and the things 0:57:08.640 --> 0:57:11.719 that he's as. They're spiritual together. He's the one that's like, 0:57:11.760 --> 0:57:13.640 but I can actually lay some hands on and make 0:57:13.719 --> 0:57:14.240 some changes. 0:57:14.320 --> 0:57:14.600 Okay. 0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:17.720 So the Brotherhood shares a dream of men and women 0:57:17.880 --> 0:57:20.760 living as equals in a state of excellent physical and 0:57:20.800 --> 0:57:24.880 spiritual health in a free love utopia, entering and exiting 0:57:25.000 --> 0:57:28.640 relationships at will or as Heather aren't. Anderson, the writer 0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:32.880 puts it quote an individual's rights to bang anyone they fancy. 0:57:33.200 --> 0:57:36.720 She wrote that, yeah, because essentially that's what they're doing. 0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:39.040 Yeah, and doesn't sound like the worst life I've ever 0:57:39.080 --> 0:57:40.000 heard on this podcast. 0:57:40.320 --> 0:57:42.920 No. And also at this time there were other US 0:57:43.000 --> 0:57:46.720 based religious groups doing exactly the same thing. It's possible 0:57:46.840 --> 0:57:50.000 that they heard about the Oneida community in upstate New York, 0:57:50.240 --> 0:57:53.840 which was established in the eighteen forties and remained as 0:57:53.880 --> 0:57:58.560 a utopian, freelove Christian sect for decades, famously manufacturing the 0:57:58.640 --> 0:58:00.880 kitchen where you might have in your home. 0:58:00.800 --> 0:58:03.000 Right now, fucking right. You covered that right? 0:58:03.160 --> 0:58:05.760 No, actually I didn't, because Maren then writes note to 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:08.959 Karen Oneida could be fun to someday cover. Oh my god, 0:58:09.320 --> 0:58:13.200 doing it dips. Okay, But as progressive as a place 0:58:13.200 --> 0:58:16.840 like San Francisco can be, it's not remote or rural 0:58:16.960 --> 0:58:19.840 upstate New York. And so the Brotherhood's values are far 0:58:19.920 --> 0:58:21.760 too radical for the average. 0:58:21.400 --> 0:58:22.680 Joe down on Market Street. 0:58:23.200 --> 0:58:25.720 They realize that to live out their utopian vision, they're 0:58:25.760 --> 0:58:28.800 going to have to go somewhere more isolated, no prying eyes, 0:58:29.400 --> 0:58:31.920 where they can build their new society and peace. It's weird, 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:34.800 it is. It is like a footprint, like a blueprint 0:58:34.800 --> 0:58:35.520 for Jim Jones. 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:38.360 It follows the trajectory of a cult. Yeah yeah. 0:58:38.520 --> 0:58:41.240 And so this is where Henderson steps up and steps in. 0:58:41.480 --> 0:58:44.520 He's the richest member of this brotherhood, and of course 0:58:44.560 --> 0:58:46.960 he's willing to sink all of his fruit Tree money 0:58:47.000 --> 0:58:49.800 into this cause. If you think about all the risks 0:58:49.880 --> 0:58:54.680 he's taken He's completed multiple cross country trips and reinvented 0:58:54.760 --> 0:58:58.360 himself like three times, so and it's always worked. Why 0:58:58.360 --> 0:59:00.920 would he not think he could do this? So he 0:59:01.080 --> 0:59:04.520 sells the bulk of his California business and pours his 0:59:04.600 --> 0:59:08.520 money into a big schooner. He buys the boat himself, 0:59:09.040 --> 0:59:12.040 and then he buys a fifty thousand acre sparsely populated 0:59:12.080 --> 0:59:16.400 volcanic island off of Honduras, oh called Tiger Island. 0:59:16.760 --> 0:59:21.000 This is so jim, This is so yeah. People's downfall, Yeah, exactly. 0:59:21.240 --> 0:59:24.560 A lot of people are caught off guard by Henderson's 0:59:24.760 --> 0:59:28.800 deep entanglement with the Harmonial Brotherhood, none more than his 0:59:28.960 --> 0:59:32.640 new wife Mary, who's been kept out of the loop 0:59:32.720 --> 0:59:37.080 on this whole Honduras Utopia plan from the beginning. She 0:59:37.280 --> 0:59:40.400 is not invited. Oh so she's not in it and 0:59:40.440 --> 0:59:44.680 she's not inviting. Yeah. Really, So, when she learns that 0:59:44.760 --> 0:59:47.760 her husband is about to abandon her, knowing that she 0:59:47.800 --> 0:59:50.360 will be left destitute, she tries to have him committed, 0:59:51.080 --> 0:59:53.840 and that actually is phrased very like it's one to 0:59:53.920 --> 0:59:55.800 the other. But there's also the chance she has been 0:59:55.840 --> 1:00:00.000 living with this man who's increasingly wearing transition lenses inside 1:00:00.160 --> 1:00:02.600 the house, and so she knows maybe something needs to 1:00:02.600 --> 1:00:03.280 be done right. 1:00:03.520 --> 1:00:05.919 It might not just be because it might fee legit. 1:00:06.120 --> 1:00:09.000 Yeah exactly, she might not just be covering your ass. 1:00:09.000 --> 1:00:09.800 But we'll never know. 1:00:10.040 --> 1:00:12.520 And the thing is, the courts agree with her, and 1:00:12.880 --> 1:00:16.440 the police are dispatched to go find him, but Henderson 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:19.120 is two steps ahead of everybody. He's gone into hiding 1:00:20.240 --> 1:00:24.240 until October eighth, eighteen fifty nine, when the Harmonial Brotherhood 1:00:24.320 --> 1:00:28.200 schooner sets stail out of San Francisco with nine male members, 1:00:28.240 --> 1:00:31.800 five female ones, and six or seven children on board. 1:00:31.640 --> 1:00:34.919 Good Bye bye, guys. But Henderson's not on board. He's 1:00:34.960 --> 1:00:38.760 actually watching the schooner from shore, and once it sails 1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:41.920 into the bay and then passes the place that the 1:00:41.960 --> 1:00:44.560 Golden gate Bridge wants will be, he waits to see 1:00:44.600 --> 1:00:47.080 if any boats come up and try to arrest anybody 1:00:47.160 --> 1:00:50.640 on it. Once he sees that that doesn't happen, he 1:00:50.680 --> 1:00:53.280 gets onto a smaller boat and under the cover of 1:00:53.360 --> 1:00:57.600 midnight and moonlight, boards the schooner undetected. 1:00:57.800 --> 1:00:59.760 Out in the open ocean. Smart move. 1:01:00.000 --> 1:01:04.640 It's pretty cool or incredibly paranoid. So now they're sailing 1:01:04.640 --> 1:01:08.080 for Honduras. The boats crewed by hired sailors, not members 1:01:08.080 --> 1:01:11.600 of the Harmonial Brotherhood, and those sailors quickly realize this 1:01:11.760 --> 1:01:13.960 is going to be a weird ride, and they will 1:01:14.040 --> 1:01:17.000 later give statements. They're the reasons that we know what 1:01:17.440 --> 1:01:20.400 is happening on this trip, and so their statements to 1:01:20.480 --> 1:01:21.920 reporters shape what we know. 1:01:22.120 --> 1:01:22.640 Essentially. 1:01:22.840 --> 1:01:26.720 For example, living conditions on board are physically miserable, with 1:01:26.840 --> 1:01:30.320 passengers eventually being quote more or less covered with vermin. 1:01:30.600 --> 1:01:30.880 Good. 1:01:31.400 --> 1:01:33.960 Maybe they didn't know how to stock the ship or 1:01:34.080 --> 1:01:37.880 pack vegetables. They had so many vegetables. Yeah, Also, tensions 1:01:37.880 --> 1:01:41.920 over food escalate very quickly because they're vegetarian. It's a 1:01:41.960 --> 1:01:46.320 tough reality at sea. Their onboard diet consists mostly of 1:01:46.640 --> 1:01:50.960 quote coarse flour apparently ground up with chaff, straw and all, 1:01:51.160 --> 1:01:55.200 and very much resembling cattle feed. Chaff is that outer 1:01:55.320 --> 1:01:57.840 husk that you sometimes get stuck in your teeth if. 1:01:57.760 --> 1:02:01.440 You eatal oh oatly Oh yeah ye the Odie parsh. 1:02:01.720 --> 1:02:05.120 Basically, they are starving on this ship. So then when 1:02:05.160 --> 1:02:08.160 they stop at ports along the way, some members get 1:02:08.200 --> 1:02:10.400 caught quote dietary cheating. 1:02:10.760 --> 1:02:13.800 Oh shit, give me that bacon exactly. 1:02:13.800 --> 1:02:16.760 Buying salted pork and game meat, because that's exactly what 1:02:16.800 --> 1:02:18.440 I know for it's likely. 1:02:18.320 --> 1:02:20.800 You get a big hunk of beef jerky, chew on 1:02:20.840 --> 1:02:22.880 it for mil to night and just chewing on it. 1:02:22.960 --> 1:02:24.960 The people who do this are caught red handed, and 1:02:25.000 --> 1:02:28.200 then heated arguments break out among the brethren because not 1:02:28.240 --> 1:02:31.920 only are you hoarding food, but it's against your beliefs. 1:02:32.040 --> 1:02:33.320 Yeah, and it's not hot. 1:02:34.040 --> 1:02:37.200 So the biggest rift on the ship about food is 1:02:37.240 --> 1:02:40.560 known as the egg Boar, and it starts in Wahawka, Mexico, 1:02:40.720 --> 1:02:44.360 when a merchant swindles both Doctor T and Henderson. His 1:02:44.600 --> 1:02:49.000 colon involves eight chicken eggs. Basically, Henderson sees him with 1:02:49.040 --> 1:02:50.720 the eggs, he runs up and says, I'll take all 1:02:50.760 --> 1:02:54.360 of them. The seller sells him the eight eggs and 1:02:54.400 --> 1:02:56.600 takes his money, and then Henderson runs away to go 1:02:56.680 --> 1:02:59.120 get a container to put the eggs in. And while 1:02:59.160 --> 1:03:01.600 he's away, Doctor T walks up and says, I want 1:03:01.640 --> 1:03:03.840 all eight of those eggs, and the guy's like, sounds good. 1:03:03.920 --> 1:03:05.960 Bad communication, No communication. 1:03:05.640 --> 1:03:08.400 No communication. He sells them a second time and then 1:03:08.520 --> 1:03:13.240 disappears when Henderson comes back with his handful of straw 1:03:13.320 --> 1:03:15.600 or whatever it is that he found to carry the 1:03:15.600 --> 1:03:18.720 eggs in, he sees Doctor T holding them and they 1:03:18.800 --> 1:03:22.440 start fighting over which one of them actually owns these eggs. 1:03:22.760 --> 1:03:26.040 We've all been there, sure, the Great egg War. But 1:03:26.400 --> 1:03:29.200 with these guys, they can't just work it up. They 1:03:29.200 --> 1:03:32.000 can't go like, ah, we both were scared swindled. This 1:03:32.040 --> 1:03:35.200 is what it's like, you know, out on the open seas. Instead, 1:03:35.280 --> 1:03:38.840 they resent each other for days, culminating in an all 1:03:38.920 --> 1:03:40.680 hands meeting on the ship. 1:03:41.280 --> 1:03:42.800 They're little bitches, both of them. 1:03:42.920 --> 1:03:45.560 Yeah, And it's like everybody's fighting and it's ruining the 1:03:45.600 --> 1:03:46.880 crews for the rest of us. 1:03:47.080 --> 1:03:49.880 It's really the vibe. The vibes are off. 1:03:50.080 --> 1:03:51.880 The vibes are so off. So they have a staff 1:03:51.920 --> 1:03:54.800 meeting and all hands meeting on the Lido deck and 1:03:54.880 --> 1:03:57.240 Henderson tells the group God wants him. 1:03:57.120 --> 1:03:59.880 To have the eggs. Oh settled. Who knew, dude? 1:04:00.000 --> 1:04:02.960 They ever say that on Real Housewives? God wants me 1:04:03.040 --> 1:04:05.600 to have the eggs. So this fight is over. But 1:04:05.640 --> 1:04:08.800 apparently this works. Henderson winds up with the eggs, and 1:04:08.880 --> 1:04:12.080 the only reason we believe it is because at this 1:04:12.200 --> 1:04:17.720 same meeting, Doctor T vows to get revenge over eggs 1:04:17.760 --> 1:04:20.480 over eggs. They haven't even landed on the island yet, 1:04:20.520 --> 1:04:21.200 and things. 1:04:20.960 --> 1:04:21.640 Are that bad. 1:04:21.760 --> 1:04:25.400 So clearly the two vegetarian free love alpha males are 1:04:25.480 --> 1:04:30.000 vying for control over the schooner and the spirit of 1:04:30.040 --> 1:04:32.200 the group itself as they do as they seem to 1:04:32.200 --> 1:04:35.560 always want to do. Doctor t is a blacksmith. Henderson 1:04:35.640 --> 1:04:39.240 is a rich pioneer who will win. Lay your bets, 1:04:40.240 --> 1:04:43.280 good luck players. It takes them several months to finally 1:04:43.360 --> 1:04:46.000 arrive at Tiger Island. So several more months of that 1:04:46.360 --> 1:04:51.160 life and that strife I have bars. So when the 1:04:51.200 --> 1:04:55.000 schooner's crew is finally cut loose, they run to the reporters, 1:04:55.400 --> 1:04:58.040 describing the journey as a free love Hell. 1:04:59.280 --> 1:05:02.040 No such thing. You think those words wouldn't go together. 1:05:02.160 --> 1:05:05.240 But hey, and on a boat, and these are sailors. 1:05:05.560 --> 1:05:07.120 It's the first swingers cruise. 1:05:07.760 --> 1:05:11.520 Oh and these sailors are just like the weight staff. 1:05:11.600 --> 1:05:15.760 They're forced to stand by in the rented community. 1:05:15.840 --> 1:05:18.080 They know all the gossip because like they're just like 1:05:18.160 --> 1:05:19.400 in the background of everything. 1:05:19.760 --> 1:05:21.040 Yeah, oh my god. 1:05:21.000 --> 1:05:24.280 Just not into it. They keep walking into the supply galley. 1:05:24.760 --> 1:05:28.680 Everyone's fucking back there. Sorry, don't let your kids listen 1:05:28.760 --> 1:05:33.360 to this episode, and they also document the hypocrisy among 1:05:33.440 --> 1:05:37.400 the supposedly sexually liberated group members, mentioning a specific incident 1:05:37.560 --> 1:05:39.920 in another port in Mexico where a male member of 1:05:39.920 --> 1:05:43.200 the Brotherhood happens to end up at the same stream 1:05:43.440 --> 1:05:47.600 where the female members are skinny dipping or bathing. I mean, 1:05:47.640 --> 1:05:50.000 they have been on a boat for months, and Doctor 1:05:50.040 --> 1:05:52.919 T shows up and becomes so irate that this other 1:05:53.000 --> 1:05:56.000 man has just seen his wife naked that he quote 1:05:56.040 --> 1:06:00.720 threatened to break every bone in his body unquote, so chill. 1:06:01.120 --> 1:06:05.160 So the blacksmith turned water doctor seems like maybe not 1:06:05.840 --> 1:06:08.760 always okay, or he's like me where when his blood 1:06:08.760 --> 1:06:10.480 sugar gets low, he threatens to kill it. 1:06:10.520 --> 1:06:12.520 Which is the whole time they're starting. 1:06:12.720 --> 1:06:17.080 They can't have any sugar, okay. So now California papers 1:06:17.080 --> 1:06:22.120 are running sneering articles on this harmonious brotherhood utopian journey. 1:06:22.240 --> 1:06:25.800 They're clocking all of it. Meanwhile, on Tiger Island, the 1:06:25.880 --> 1:06:29.040 gang is in rough shape. They're exhausted and they're depleted. 1:06:29.040 --> 1:06:32.080 They just arrived. Now they have to build the infrastructure 1:06:32.160 --> 1:06:37.520 needed to start like their little society. But immediately and 1:06:37.680 --> 1:06:41.640 very sadly, something like malaria or yellow fever sweeps through 1:06:41.640 --> 1:06:44.520 the camp and the terrible reality sets in for the 1:06:44.520 --> 1:06:48.240 group that Doctor T's hydropathy treatments are no match for 1:06:48.360 --> 1:06:52.280 real disease. One of the articles covering this will document 1:06:52.320 --> 1:06:55.920 the death of a Brotherhood member identified only as Missus C, 1:06:56.640 --> 1:06:59.600 which is so sad if you think Richie Cunningham's mother 1:06:59.720 --> 1:07:03.120 dying this way, and they write quote, they took Missus 1:07:03.160 --> 1:07:05.640 C while raging with the fever, wrapped her in a 1:07:05.680 --> 1:07:09.680 wet blanket till she perspired profusely, and then threw cold 1:07:09.760 --> 1:07:13.320 water over her. The speedy result was her death. 1:07:13.640 --> 1:07:16.800 And what a fuck shitty way to go. 1:07:16.920 --> 1:07:21.440 Horrible after months eating the worst oatmeal of all time. 1:07:22.080 --> 1:07:23.760 What was it all for? For real? 1:07:24.040 --> 1:07:26.400 Just to dive far away from home. Two members of 1:07:26.400 --> 1:07:30.120 the Harmonial Brotherhood died shortly after arriving at Tiger Islands 1:07:30.240 --> 1:07:33.520 the sea and another as many as eight get sick, 1:07:33.680 --> 1:07:37.760 including Henderson himself, but they recover. But there's only twenty 1:07:37.800 --> 1:07:41.400 people on this ship, so morale is extraordinarily low. And 1:07:41.520 --> 1:07:44.960 make matters worse, the egg related rift between Henderson and 1:07:45.040 --> 1:07:46.880 Doctor T has not ended. 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:48.160 Guys, let it go. 1:07:48.400 --> 1:07:54.040 We can't eggs eggs, precious eggs. Doctor T actually breaks 1:07:54.080 --> 1:07:57.160 away from the main group with a few loyalists on 1:07:57.200 --> 1:08:01.280 his side, and starts a rival utopian society. Me and 1:08:01.320 --> 1:08:02.600 my two friends are out. 1:08:02.360 --> 1:08:04.080 Of here on the other side of the island with 1:08:04.120 --> 1:08:04.800 our eggs. 1:08:04.840 --> 1:08:07.480 Literally they go, they move to another side of the island. 1:08:07.840 --> 1:08:10.800 They don't get me eggs. So soon after doctor T 1:08:10.960 --> 1:08:14.240 gets sick and dies himself. Oh so you can't. There's 1:08:14.280 --> 1:08:16.720 no room to just be busting off and being mad 1:08:16.760 --> 1:08:19.080 about eggs. The point is not the eggs. 1:08:19.120 --> 1:08:22.280 God has other plans for you when you're chief and 1:08:22.320 --> 1:08:22.960 about eggs. 1:08:23.080 --> 1:08:23.479 Amen. 1:08:24.240 --> 1:08:28.479 Okay, so from here the information is spotty because, as 1:08:28.520 --> 1:08:30.640 I told you, no one's keeping diaries. There are no 1:08:30.680 --> 1:08:32.280 scrap books from Tiger Islands. 1:08:32.479 --> 1:08:34.280 Was like, I want to write down stuff. Well, and 1:08:34.560 --> 1:08:35.840 this is actually dying. 1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:38.920 Yes, this is I got weird and high over eating 1:08:38.960 --> 1:08:42.719 too many vegetables and like having sex whenever I wanted, 1:08:42.720 --> 1:08:46.080 which seemed impossible. And now I'm in Honduras and I 1:08:46.080 --> 1:08:47.040 don't know what's going on. 1:08:47.200 --> 1:08:50.360 Maybe my wife was right to put me in a 1:08:50.400 --> 1:08:51.360 mental institution. 1:08:51.600 --> 1:08:51.880 Yeah. 1:08:52.080 --> 1:08:56.200 Oops, maybe my water treatments don't actually work. This is 1:08:56.240 --> 1:09:01.000 a musical Okay, it only took eight months for the 1:09:01.040 --> 1:09:04.639 Harmonial Brotherhood's Free Love experiment on Tiger Island to implode. 1:09:04.760 --> 1:09:08.280 That's a long freaking time. Yeah. Yeah. 1:09:09.040 --> 1:09:10.600 What we know for sure is that in July of 1:09:10.600 --> 1:09:14.400 eighteen sixty, Henderson Lewelling commissions a crew to sail his 1:09:14.439 --> 1:09:18.360 schooner back to California. After this, when the group gets back, 1:09:18.520 --> 1:09:19.800 they disband for good. 1:09:19.880 --> 1:09:20.439 They seem to. 1:09:21.200 --> 1:09:24.840 The entire saga is extremely humiliating for all parties involved 1:09:25.040 --> 1:09:27.920 because they went out, you know, of course, guns a 1:09:27.960 --> 1:09:30.320 blazing of like, we're out of here. We are going 1:09:30.360 --> 1:09:31.880 to We're going to figure it out. 1:09:32.040 --> 1:09:32.559 That's right. 1:09:32.640 --> 1:09:34.439 Things are going to be so much better at our 1:09:34.520 --> 1:09:37.200 new life. And this is always what I bring up 1:09:37.240 --> 1:09:42.400 in my argument against vegetarianism. Bring the bacon, Bring the bacon. 1:09:42.520 --> 1:09:44.400 It's the old saying, bring the bacon, you won't fight 1:09:44.439 --> 1:09:45.320 so much about the eggs. 1:09:45.320 --> 1:09:48.479 Also the yeah, because put your protein difference between the 1:09:48.479 --> 1:09:49.400 fucking eggs and the bacon. 1:09:49.520 --> 1:09:51.679 Really it's a focus. 1:09:52.040 --> 1:09:55.479 It's the lens through which it's so humiliating that Henderson 1:09:55.560 --> 1:09:58.400 Lewelling lives the rest of his life under a pseudonym. 1:09:58.640 --> 1:10:04.000 Oh of his family meanwhile carry on his horticultural mantle 1:10:04.160 --> 1:10:07.920 and continue producing popular crops on the Pacific Coast. His 1:10:08.040 --> 1:10:12.760 brother Seth is particularly successful, becoming famous for cultivating the 1:10:12.840 --> 1:10:14.759 bing cherry in the eighteen seventies. 1:10:15.280 --> 1:10:16.200 Yeah love that guy. 1:10:16.560 --> 1:10:19.479 Seth actually changes the spelling of his last name to 1:10:19.680 --> 1:10:21.479 Lleuwelling L E W E. 1:10:21.479 --> 1:10:25.160 L L I to get away from the like damn So. 1:10:25.200 --> 1:10:27.839 In eighteen seventy eight, while clearing land with a control 1:10:27.880 --> 1:10:32.799 burn for a new nursery in San Jose, California, Henderson 1:10:32.880 --> 1:10:35.360 Lewelling dies of a heart attack at the age of 1:10:35.439 --> 1:10:38.200 sixty nine. So he was starting it all over yet 1:10:38.240 --> 1:10:41.599 again in San Jose. This is a hard part to hear. 1:10:41.880 --> 1:10:46.639 He's reportedly found quote partially roasted, with his clothes, beard, 1:10:46.720 --> 1:10:49.400 and the land around him still smoldering. 1:10:49.720 --> 1:10:51.599 So he got caught on fire and had a heart 1:10:51.640 --> 1:10:52.599 attack and died. 1:10:52.760 --> 1:10:56.320 He was control burning, had a heart attack, dropped to 1:10:56.360 --> 1:10:56.799 the ground. 1:10:57.560 --> 1:11:00.720 Oh, and we're live control burn. I couldn't get away 1:11:00.760 --> 1:11:01.080 from them. 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:03.400 Hopefully he died, but let's say he died. 1:11:03.200 --> 1:11:05.080 Before their control burn. Oh God. 1:11:06.520 --> 1:11:09.040 In nineteen twenty nine, while musing on a sprout from 1:11:09.080 --> 1:11:12.479 one of Henderson's Oregon cherry trees. A writer named O. A. 1:11:12.640 --> 1:11:17.719 Garretson notes quote that this little cherry sprout originating at Salem, Iowa, 1:11:18.000 --> 1:11:21.400 should withstand the risks of transportation across the continent, and 1:11:21.439 --> 1:11:25.599 the hazards of frequent transplanting, and still live a towering 1:11:25.640 --> 1:11:28.920 monument to commemorate the energy and enterprise of a Salem 1:11:28.960 --> 1:11:32.839 pioneer is to the writer, a fact stranger than fiction. 1:11:33.680 --> 1:11:36.160 And that's the story of the so called father of 1:11:36.200 --> 1:11:42.160 the Pacific fruit industry and Dirty Bird Henderson Llewelling. Oh, 1:11:42.160 --> 1:11:44.080 I didn't show you any fucking pictures. 1:11:44.240 --> 1:11:47.839 It was so that you had the images and the words. 1:11:47.880 --> 1:11:49.679 I didn't need it. I have it all in my mind. 1:11:49.720 --> 1:11:51.599 I want to see some of them. Here's the book 1:11:51.640 --> 1:11:52.559 we were talking about. 1:11:53.600 --> 1:11:55.000 I think I read that as a kid. 1:11:55.400 --> 1:12:01.719 It seems so innocent. We'll just get ready, Okay, there. 1:12:01.720 --> 1:12:05.520 Is there is. There's a neck beard. Neckard. 1:12:05.920 --> 1:12:06.639 This is crazy. 1:12:06.800 --> 1:12:09.160 This is the season of Neckbeard's on my favorite murder. 1:12:09.240 --> 1:12:13.040 I guess this was like the Benson Boone mustache is today. 1:12:13.200 --> 1:12:15.040 This neckbeard was in eighteen fifty. 1:12:15.120 --> 1:12:17.599 Because you look fine without it. What are you doing? 1:12:17.760 --> 1:12:19.480 She's like you put some sheep's. 1:12:19.080 --> 1:12:23.080 Wool it's kind of quakery. I mean, this seems to 1:12:23.080 --> 1:12:24.400 be the trend of the time. 1:12:24.479 --> 1:12:27.080 Okay. What else we got is that the schooner No 1:12:28.400 --> 1:12:29.679 I was paturing like a yacht. 1:12:29.720 --> 1:12:30.719 That's Tiger Island. 1:12:30.800 --> 1:12:33.839 Great, Okay, there's the schooner. 1:12:33.920 --> 1:12:35.000 Yeah, that's more what I thought. 1:12:35.280 --> 1:12:38.439 Still, it's not big and you can only have like 1:12:38.560 --> 1:12:42.639 really crunchy oatmeal rough. Okay, so not even big enough 1:12:42.680 --> 1:12:45.160 for people to If the sailors from this boat are 1:12:45.160 --> 1:12:48.800 complaining about a free love situation, that weird them out. 1:12:49.520 --> 1:12:57.960 It's everywhere they were witnessing it front, back and center. Whoops. Okay, 1:12:58.720 --> 1:13:01.280 oh that's Lammett Valley at value. I know the willam 1:13:01.320 --> 1:13:02.720 at value when I'm looking at it. 1:13:02.920 --> 1:13:05.320 All right, Well that was great. Wow. 1:13:05.520 --> 1:13:08.519 Yeah those are all these experiences you can have in life. 1:13:08.640 --> 1:13:08.880 Yeah. 1:13:09.040 --> 1:13:10.479 I could go so many different ways. 1:13:10.760 --> 1:13:13.960 That's all we want people to remember, right, yesha, please 1:13:13.960 --> 1:13:16.400 stop forgetting the variety of. 1:13:16.280 --> 1:13:19.400 Life and enjoy yours because. 1:13:19.360 --> 1:13:24.160 Life is like a bing cherry. Yeah, it's expensive, stay sexy, 1:13:24.000 --> 1:13:25.479 I don't get. 1:13:26.360 --> 1:13:37.000 Goodbye, Elvis, do you want to cookie? This has been 1:13:37.040 --> 1:13:38.280 an exactly right production. 1:13:38.479 --> 1:13:41.160 Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer 1:13:41.240 --> 1:13:41.960 is Tessa Hughes. 1:13:42.040 --> 1:13:44.000 Our editor is Aristotle Ascevedo. 1:13:44.120 --> 1:13:46.280 This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci. 1:13:46.439 --> 1:13:49.040 Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin. 1:13:49.160 --> 1:13:52.080 Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot. 1:13:51.880 --> 1:13:54.679 Com and follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder. 1:13:54.760 --> 1:13:57.599 Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple 1:13:57.600 --> 1:13:59.560 Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:13:59.560 --> 1:14:01.960 And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix. 1:14:02.080 --> 1:14:04.160 And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and 1:14:04.200 --> 1:14:06.680 the remind Me buttons. 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