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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder.

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Speaker 2: That's Georgia Hardstar.

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Speaker 1: That's Karen Kilgara.

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Speaker 2: No pointing, Oh yeah, sorry, that's against the one I

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Speaker 2: was the only one to pointing is rude point?

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Speaker 1: Don't you ever stop do it? How are you? I'm good.

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Speaker 2: I'm grateful to have the job of podcasting today.

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Speaker 1: Same yep, why specifically today.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It's just a really nice life.

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Speaker 3: It's Vince and I were talking about how it's all

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Speaker 3: democracy is going to be over soon, so like, how

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Speaker 3: do we celebrate what we have now?

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Speaker 2: That's right for me.

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Speaker 3: I tell my therapists that when I'm really bummed, I

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Speaker 3: think about if I took a time machine back to

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Speaker 3: today because the apocalypse has happened, I'm going to look

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Speaker 3: at everything and be like, wow, I was so lucky, Yes,

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Speaker 3: to have these things, and to be able to talk

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Speaker 3: to these people and to do these.

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Speaker 1: We have a hot dog phone, to.

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Speaker 3: Have freedom, to have a hot dog phone. So just

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Speaker 3: pretend you're from the.

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Speaker 1: Future, yes, which is a dark terrible place or not

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Speaker 1: or not?

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Speaker 2: Or a rule of six with that dark terrible place

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Speaker 2: and five other options. Okay, got to do five other

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Speaker 2: options every time? Okay, my therapist does it like this, though,

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Speaker 2: she puts her hand up and then goes, this is dark.

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Speaker 2: This is dark.

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Speaker 1: Terrible times.

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Speaker 2: It also could be neutral times.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: It could be very bright and shiny times exactly the same.

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Speaker 2: It could be like we're all working at Macy's all

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, weird but doable.

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Speaker 3: I could have a desk job. See b Richard Ellis Investors,

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Speaker 3: you could go moment please so quickly, ceev Richard Ellis Investors.

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Speaker 3: I can't pay my rent. One moment please.

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Speaker 2: Now there's your podcast. I mean you've always worked in

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Speaker 2: the voice area.

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Speaker 1: Clearly that was your early training.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and mine was reading aloud in sixth grade, which

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Speaker 2: was my favorite.

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Speaker 1: Thing to do.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 2: You love to be called on because they would just

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Speaker 2: go up and down the road. There's no way. We

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Speaker 2: haven't talked about this, but I would just I would

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Speaker 2: go pick out the paragraph that.

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Speaker 1: Would be mine. Practice, practice, not too much, not too little.

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Speaker 1: So you didn't know, you didn't listen to what not

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Speaker 1: a word? You knew what was that was none of

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Speaker 1: my business. I was on that my.

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Speaker 2: Paragraphs, that's why.

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Speaker 3: That's yeah, and you killed it every time. I was

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Speaker 3: very proud of my reading skills.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's nice and smooth, no trips.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Janet, for every every bad thing she did, she

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Speaker 3: fucking she'd tell you to read real good the basics.

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Speaker 2: She covered those basics. Three hots and a cot and

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Speaker 2: a book that you could actually read for yourself.

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Speaker 1: Belated birthday, Happy birthday.

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Speaker 3: I just I just plopped a fucking little gift wrapped

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Speaker 3: gift in front of Karen for her birthday.

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Speaker 2: I will tell you listener, it's heavy, it's wrapped in gorgeous.

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Speaker 1: So you I saw it. It's from Etsy. I it is.

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Speaker 2: A diet coke ash tray. Ladies and gentlemen. It is

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Speaker 2: hue so beautiful. It looks like handpainted. But then underneath some.

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Speaker 1: Clear read the maker on the back.

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Speaker 2: Oh, the maker is where w are your snacks?

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Speaker 3: And so she has You can get that in like

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Speaker 3: mine would obviously be. It's a potato chip with crumb

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Speaker 3: fresh and caviar on it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, you can get hot dog, you can get.

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Speaker 2: Mine would obviously be who are you?

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Speaker 1: Who are you? Orange County? That is caviar is like

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Speaker 1: my like favorite.

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Speaker 2: Mine would obviously be a gold bar cottage cheek.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why it's just like so.

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Speaker 2: But it's basically looking at something that makes your mouth

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Speaker 2: immediately water or makes your thing though.

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Speaker 1: That's my jam, that's your identity. So diet coke, a

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Speaker 1: can of diet coke. I saw that.

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Speaker 3: I was like, I have to get up for caring.

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Speaker 3: It could be a catch all. You don't have to

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Speaker 3: ash and you don't have to take up smoking.

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Speaker 2: Oh, but I have to. Now that you've given me this,

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Speaker 2: you've required it, and I'm going to go right back

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Speaker 2: to the capris. They're thin.

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Speaker 1: Oh sure, they're easy to smoke.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, ladies and gentlemen, look up nineteen eighty eight Caprice cigarettes. Oh,

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Speaker 2: thank you so much. That's a perfect gift.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Now I have a gift for you that I realized

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Speaker 2: the last time we talked about birthday gift giving. You

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Speaker 2: were like, it's not my birthday yet, but I was like, oh,

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Speaker 2: just we're going to give each other a gift at

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Speaker 2: the same I like.

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Speaker 3: An in between things because our birthdays are like almost

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Speaker 3: a month apart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so yeah, a month and a decade, a month

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Speaker 2: and a decade, yeah, wow, almost exactly ten years apart.

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Speaker 1: We're generation apart. Wow.

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Speaker 2: I think that's the hook of this podcast, right, no

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Speaker 2: one's caught on.

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Speaker 1: That's true.

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Speaker 2: It's like old and young.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: What I was thinking about too, is like the fact

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Speaker 3: that we started this podcast when we barely knew each other,

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Speaker 3: so we were getting to know each other at the

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Speaker 3: same time the audience was getting Yeah, got to know

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Speaker 3: us that way. If we had already known everything about each.

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Speaker 2: Other, it would all be facade.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think that's the secret sauce. So I

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Speaker 1: hate that term.

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Speaker 2: Well should we call it the Thousand Island dressing of

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Speaker 2: our souls?

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Speaker 1: I agree?

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Speaker 2: And I also think that we kind of knew it,

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Speaker 2: but we also didn't know it. I think we both

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Speaker 2: had that like we're grabbing hands and jumping off this cliff,

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Speaker 2: which other people wouldn't have done totally. And I think

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Speaker 2: so there was a feeling of that just discovering this now,

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Speaker 2: but the feeling of that of like, she's up for

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Speaker 2: this whatever, this.

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Speaker 1: Thing is just up for it. Yeah, I'm game.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank god, thank god.

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Speaker 1: And that's this podcast. Well, thanks for listening, goodbye.

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Speaker 2: This is our way of saying we quicked done.

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Speaker 1: We both walk out.

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Speaker 4: That's it.

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Speaker 1: Fade to black.

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Speaker 2: Also, just point out that it has been ten years,

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Speaker 2: but the last time we recorded our episode was almost

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Speaker 2: two hours long.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 2: So the idea when people are like, aren't you going

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Speaker 2: to run out of stuff? It's like you would think

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Speaker 2: we would.

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Speaker 3: Today I'm doing this story that like means so ten

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Speaker 3: years and I'm finally doing this story that means so

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Speaker 3: much to me. It's not like I found the story

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Speaker 3: and like, yes, another one. It's like they can still

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Speaker 3: be so important and meaningful and shit, Unfortunately, there's just

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Speaker 3: a never ending.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there's bad hooray of this parade of humans.

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's the name of the episode. Oh, that's right.

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Speaker 3: I wanted to ask everyone if they know that we

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Speaker 3: name every episode after some ridiculous thing we say in

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Speaker 3: the episode, and that's like obvious to everyone, but I

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Speaker 3: was like, what if they don't know that? So, like,

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Speaker 3: you got to find the moment we say the dumb

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Speaker 3: ass thing that we name the episode. It's like a

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Speaker 3: little east eg Yeah, and then everyone knows.

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Speaker 2: And then if you figure it out, we'll send you

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Speaker 2: an easter egg in the mail from this last Easter.

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Speaker 2: They don't they smell really bad, but but that's your gift. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, when we plan this show. There's all kinds

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Speaker 2: of futuristic, technical, Easter egg type thinking that we put

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Speaker 2: into it.

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Speaker 1: Totally. We love Easter Eggs. We're like a video game. Yeah, so,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a simulation. How could it not be.

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you the thing that the physicist said. Okay,

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Speaker 2: when I worked on the Time Travel show and somebody asked,

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Speaker 2: that was the first question we asked, and he said,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Come on, that's not what I was expecting.

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Speaker 2: Because if it's a simulation, it's so good we don't

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Speaker 2: know or we're just catching on. But if it's a

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Speaker 2: good enough simulation that we don't know, then that idea

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Speaker 2: that like I'm stuck in the back rooms or whatever

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Speaker 2: people get online about and weird in their head. It's like,

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Speaker 2: it's better. It's better than that. Go to the beach

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Speaker 2: and then think about the simulation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, go now, okay, oh oh okay, oh oh oh shit.

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Speaker 1: Okay a second. Well, first, fucking New MFM animated.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, that's right.

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Speaker 1: I haven't watched it yet. Of you, neither of us.

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Speaker 2: Have seen this, and so we thought it'd be fun

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Speaker 2: to show you at the same time as we are

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Speaker 2: seeing it. For the first time ourselves.

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Speaker 3: Our friend Nick Terry, by his own free will, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: makes these incredible animations based on some dumb fucking thing

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Speaker 3: that we've said. This is Starnada many f seventy eight.

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Speaker 3: It's called Drama meine. Let's if you're not watching it

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Speaker 3: on Netflix.

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Speaker 2: Please do or go look it up, and now we're

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Speaker 2: going to watch it for the first time right here.

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Speaker 2: It was summer of two thousand and five and I

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Speaker 2: was eight years old when we took a family vacation

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Speaker 2: to Yosemite and San Francisco. While in San fran we

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Speaker 2: got a boat tour that took us past Alcatraz and

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Speaker 2: to some other island close by.

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Speaker 1: What is that, Marin.

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Speaker 2: I don't remember there being a two island stop for

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Speaker 2: the Alcadras tour, but I haven't been there.

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Speaker 1: Alcatraz too.

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Speaker 2: It's smaller and hipper, and there's a disco. There's an

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Speaker 2: amazing night life on Alcatrazdo Okay. My dad was really

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Speaker 2: nervous that I was going to get seasick, so he

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Speaker 2: gave me three dramamine and we bordered the boat.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It turns out that the serving size of dramamine for

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Speaker 2: an eight year old is half a pill. So I

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Speaker 2: was knocked the fuck out, Ellia, my dad happens to

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Speaker 2: be a fireman. Yeah, and it says he's retired. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is so classic. So he walked around the island

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Speaker 2: Alcatraz with my sleeping eight year old body thrown over

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Speaker 2: his shoulder in a fireman's carry. So can I just

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Speaker 2: stop here.

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Speaker 1: To tell you this?

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Speaker 2: And this is the most dad life thing I will

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Speaker 2: ever tell you, which is that at night when we

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Speaker 2: were little, my dad, you could do the fireman's carry,

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Speaker 2: You could do sack of potatoes, or you could ride

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Speaker 2: a horse to bed. Those are the three ways we

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Speaker 2: got carried to bed.

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Speaker 1: You gotta pick which one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so cute. So fireman's you're just bent over

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Speaker 2: his shoulder, sack potatoes, he's holding you buy rings.

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Speaker 1: In your mind. Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: But then the horse You got on back and put

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Speaker 2: your hand over his mouth to feed the horse, and

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Speaker 2: he ran down the hallway and threw you on the bed.

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Speaker 1: Can you do it? Can I have that? I love?

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Speaker 2: That might be the greatest privilege.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, having a firefighter dad, Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: So that's I think this one gets me as actually,

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Speaker 2: because he just basically like every fireman's like, we're just

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Speaker 2: going to solve this problem, okay. So he would occasionally

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Speaker 2: stop and wake me up to eat ice cold drink

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Speaker 2: water with my eyes closed. My mom and brother took

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Speaker 2: normal pictures and occasionally included me weekend of Bernie a picture.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, Oh my god, it's the best picture too.

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Speaker 2: The only thing that I actually remember about that day

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Speaker 2: is waking up on a park bench next to a

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Speaker 2: dog wearing sunglasses.

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Speaker 1: Oh she's awakening. Oh god, she woke up.

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Speaker 2: At the end of all that.

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Speaker 4: Was like, hey, scene, Wow, what a joyful thing.

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Speaker 2: I completely forgot that we knew what that little girl

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Speaker 2: looked like. That's why the headband was so funny.

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Speaker 1: To me.

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Speaker 2: It looked we have an actual photo of her. Well,

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Speaker 2: that was from Lizzie originally Lizzie. I hope this is

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Speaker 2: bringing you so much joy. You now have a character

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Speaker 2: in the Nick Harry MFM animated universe.

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Speaker 3: Based off of you as a child, like the real

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Speaker 3: photo of you. God, yeah, so special. I love it

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Speaker 3: so much, so good. That was so funny. I was

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Speaker 3: wondering if your dad was gonna throw me over her

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Speaker 3: shoulder that would have been raped.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's right to give you what you want, because

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Speaker 1: I was like, can I do it? And Jim's like, no.

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Speaker 2: I only have this one thing, which is the funny

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Speaker 2: interpretation as I saw it, you rode the horse like

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Speaker 2: kind of like a monkey on his back, so he

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Speaker 2: had your legs.

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Speaker 1: In his arms.

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Speaker 2: Okay, it wasn't because if you ran down a hallway

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Speaker 2: on your dad's shoulders, I think it's not a lamb

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Speaker 2: into the Georgia. But not to criticize after the fact.

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Speaker 1: Sure that was a joy? Sure can we edit? Could

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Speaker 1: I get that? Edit it? My first round of notes?

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Speaker 2: Have this to say? No, Nick Terry, No, we love

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Speaker 2: you so much, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: What a joy? So good?

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Speaker 2: Okay, should we do network?

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Speaker 1: Yes, Highlight Podcast Network. It's the fucking best.

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Speaker 3: Only cool people like you wouldn't even believe it, so

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Speaker 3: it's called exactly right media.

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Speaker 2: Here are some highlights and one of the podcast that

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Speaker 2: is on this network is called The Knife. We Love It.

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Speaker 2: Hannah and Pasha continue their unbelievable story of Paul Franzak,

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Speaker 2: who is kidnapped from a Chicago hospital as a newborn

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Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty four. In this episode, as he digs

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Speaker 2: deeper into his identity, he uncovers secrets that completely rewrite

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Speaker 2: the story of his life.

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Speaker 1: So wild Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And then over on this podcast will Kill You, Aaron

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Speaker 3: and Aaron just keep bringing it. How do they even

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Speaker 3: think of these things? This time they tackle motion sickness.

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Speaker 2: Just to go along with that MFM animator Right, tell

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Speaker 2: me everything from boats to planes to the world's grossest

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Speaker 2: historical cures.

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Speaker 3: Yes, they break down why our brains and bodies completely

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Speaker 3: betray us and me while traveling.

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Speaker 1: Because you take three pills instead of half.

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Speaker 2: And on this week's That's Messed Up, Karen Lisa recap

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Speaker 2: episode eighteen from season seven of Law and Order Resview

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Speaker 2: entitled Venom, and their special guest this week is Joe

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Speaker 2: Graffi SI.

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Speaker 1: Plus over on Ghosted Roz is joined by drag queen

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Speaker 1: and comedian Juno Birch.

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Speaker 2: And then just really Quick Over in the merch corner,

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Speaker 2: the fan favorite married joggers Fuck you, I'm married or

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Speaker 2: officially back just in time for wedding seasons.

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Speaker 3: Right, grab a pair for yourself, your partner, or your

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Speaker 3: favorite legally bound murdering no at exactly rightstore dot com

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Speaker 3: and don't forget you can watch brand new episodes of

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Speaker 3: my favorite Murder and Buried Bones every week on freakin' Netflix.

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Speaker 1: Here we are. Have you seen yourself?

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Speaker 3: Have you like been scrolling and just suddenly there's your

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Speaker 3: face or there's last podcast on the Lift Faces.

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Speaker 2: I came home to my own face because while I

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Speaker 2: was away, my dog sitter put on the podcast video

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Speaker 2: for the dogs, Oh my God, right, to see if

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Speaker 2: it would help dogs it.

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Speaker 3: We put on reggae because we heard that dogs like

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Speaker 3: chill out reggae. Yeah, but I should put my own

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Speaker 3: fucking voice on all theough Cookie lopspins more than me,

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Speaker 3: so we should put on his podcast.

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Speaker 1: Yeah that's right. She's gonna be like this bitch is

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Speaker 1: still here? Where's my reggae? What to do? Tell Bob Marley?

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Speaker 2: Okay your first?

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Speaker 1: I was first?

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Speaker 3: And wow, okay, so I've been studying up until, like

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Speaker 3: while I put my makeup on, to the minute that

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Speaker 3: I left the house. When we were in high school,

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Speaker 3: we spent a day or two in history class learning

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Speaker 3: about Vietnam, right.

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Speaker 1: Like, yes, the basics, sure breezed over it, moved on

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Speaker 1: for their lives.

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Speaker 3: This isn't It sounds like a brag, but it's not

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Speaker 3: so I was really into the band Dead Kennedy's, and

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Speaker 3: because of that, they sing about a lot of historical stuff.

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Speaker 3: So I was really into that van and then I

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Speaker 3: would go look up the things they were singing about,

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Speaker 3: and one of those things pot exactly. I literally was like, Mom,

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Speaker 3: what's poll pot? Yeap turns out and the song is

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Speaker 3: called Holiday in Cambodia, So I learned a bunch about it.

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Speaker 3: I was really into Vietnam. I read the book The

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Speaker 3: Killing Fields, watched the movie, and.

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Speaker 2: Through the Dead Kennedy's music, basically they kind of like

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Speaker 2: made you go, what is this about?

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Speaker 1: Why would they be singing exactly that?

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Speaker 3: I mean, they also have a song about them who

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Speaker 3: was shot in San Francisco, Oh, Harvey Milk, Like they

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Speaker 3: just you learn about shit you wouldn't know. So pullpot Cambodia.

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Speaker 3: Let's start here. Okay, It's a Sunday in late February

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety six, and we're in Los Angeles' Chinatown. It's

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Speaker 3: about eight forty five PM, and residents here something that

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Speaker 3: sounds like firecrackers then make a horrifying discovery in the

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Speaker 3: garage of a small apartment building. Neighbors find the body

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Speaker 3: of a beloved fixture in Los Angeles's Cambodian community and

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Speaker 3: in the Cambodian community worldwide. He had been shot getting

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Speaker 3: out of his car and what police will ultimately decide

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Speaker 3: was a robbery gone wrong, but this will remain up

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Speaker 3: for debate. The reason for this is that the man

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Speaker 3: who had been killed had been a vocal critic of

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Speaker 3: Cambodia's government and a survivor of the genocidal Pullpot regime.

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Speaker 3: And just to give you some numbers, that led to

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Speaker 3: the deaths of an estimated one point five to three

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Speaker 3: million people, which was a quarter.

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Speaker 1: Of the country's population. Wow.

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Speaker 3: This man had been a doctor, a forced laborer, a refugee,

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Speaker 3: a community advocate, and in a surprise turn, an Oscar

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Speaker 3: winning actor. In fact, he was the first person of

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Speaker 3: Asian heritage to win the award.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: May is AAPI Heritage month, and this is the story

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Speaker 3: the amazing life, brave actions and tragic death of Hang Noir.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: The main source for the story is a documentary called

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Speaker 3: The Killing Fields of Doctor Hang s Nore fucking can't

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Speaker 3: recommend it enough. It tells you so much information. Also,

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Speaker 3: you should watch The Killing Fields. It's incredible. He plays

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Speaker 3: the Cambodian journalist, right, and you know what I'm talking about,

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Speaker 3: like the main character basically.

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Speaker 1: So the rest of the sources.

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Speaker 3: Can be found in the show notes. I've been wanting

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Speaker 3: to do this story for so long, but I just

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Speaker 3: wanted to make sure I did it right. And I

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Speaker 3: really want to thank Ali Elkin, my researcher, for doing

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Speaker 3: such an incredible job of putting this together for me.

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Speaker 3: Nice Hang Noor is born into a reasonably well to

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Speaker 3: do family in Cambodia. His father has several agricultural businesses,

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Speaker 3: owning both rice fields and lumber yards. He's born in

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Speaker 3: nineteen forty and his family lives in the country side,

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Speaker 3: so they are just living this traditional life that their

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Speaker 3: families have for generations in the agricultural business. They're not

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Speaker 3: really far out from Panampen, the capital city, but their

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Speaker 3: life is just kind of a peaceful, everyday life. For

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Speaker 3: all of Hag's life, there is some degree of political

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Speaker 3: unrest in Cambodia, and all of it is stirred up

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Speaker 3: to varying extents by Western colonialism. So he's born under

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Speaker 3: French colonial rule in a land that is still called

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Speaker 3: at the time French Indo China, which also includes modern

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Speaker 3: day Laos and Vietnam, and throughout his childhood there's a

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Speaker 3: gorilla effort to overthrow the French colonizers. Hag's family at

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Speaker 3: times is caught up in the middle of this. His

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Speaker 3: parents had been kidnapped for ransom by corrupt members of

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Speaker 3: both sides of this conflict on multiple occasions.

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Speaker 1: So that's what everyday life is like.

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Speaker 2: Multiple kidnapping, yes, horrifing.

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Speaker 3: Part of the reason for this is that Hag's father

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Speaker 3: is ethnically Chinese and his mother is part of the

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Speaker 3: Cambodian ethnic majority, which is the Kumayr, so they are

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Speaker 3: each victimized in turn for different reasons. But this is

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00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,719
Speaker 3: ultimately a low level inconvenience in comparison to what happens

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Speaker 3: later in Cambodia's history. As a teenager, Hag moves to

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Speaker 3: PanAm Penn to try to shelter from all this unrest

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Speaker 3: in the countryside. He's very, very smart, like top of

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Speaker 3: his class. He eventually goes to medical school and while

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Speaker 3: he's there he meets a fellow student named Hoy and

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Speaker 3: she's training to become a teacher and they fall in love.

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Speaker 3: This is so truncated. Yeah, the documentary is incredible. Hang

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Speaker 3: becomes a gynocologist, and in this time period, Cambodia becomes

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Speaker 3: independent and under the leadership of a monarch who then

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Speaker 3: becomes an elected leader. And at the same time, in

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Speaker 3: the late sixties and early seventies, the Vietnam War begins

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Speaker 3: and eventually the United States conducts a brutal bombing campaign

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Speaker 3: on parts of Cambodia along the border with Vietnam. And

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Speaker 3: so Ali added this famous quote in the research from

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Speaker 3: Anthony Bourdain that says, quote, once you've been to Cambodia,

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Speaker 3: you'll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death

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Speaker 3: with your bare hands. You will never again be able

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Speaker 3: to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, prevaricating,

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Speaker 3: murderous scumbag sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie

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Speaker 3: Rose or attending some black tie affair for a new

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Speaker 3: glossy magazine without choking. Witness what Henry did to Cambodia,

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Speaker 3: the fruits of his genius for statesmanship, and you will

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Speaker 3: never understand why he's not sitting in the dock at

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Speaker 3: the Hague next to Melosovich.

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Speaker 1: End quote. As in fucking War crimes.

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Speaker 2: Everybody knows this already, but I just want to say

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Speaker 2: it again, the loss of a mind and a spirit

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Speaker 2: like Anthony Bourdain, where he is a speaker of truth

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Speaker 2: to power in that way. There's not enough guys like

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Speaker 2: that anymore, where they're like no, fuck you and the

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Speaker 2: Truth times twenty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, like this might hurt my career.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but I'm actually Pallas, this is actually yes, exactly,

436
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,880
Speaker 2: this is what we're supposed to be doing here totally.

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Speaker 2: Why are we pretending that this isn't discussed exactly? So

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Speaker 2: thank you to Ali for including that.

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00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 3: So with this in the background in nineteen seventy, when

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Speaker 3: Hayng is thirty years old and a practicing physician, and

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Speaker 3: he just has this like kind of normal life. He's

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Speaker 3: got friends, he's got family, he's got this girlfriend he loves,

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Speaker 3: he's a doctor. He has this mentality that everything is

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Speaker 3: fine and the warring is going to come to a truce,

445
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,679
Speaker 3: and like so many people, just pretends like it's not

446
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 3: going to affect him and doesn't pay attention to it

447
00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,560
Speaker 3: at all. At this place, this is when Cambodia's government

448
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,720
Speaker 3: is overthrown in a coup. So Cambodia's prime minister is

449
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 3: a man named Noro Dum Sianak, and he had originally

450
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:44,520
Speaker 3: been appointed king by the French and then led Cambodia

451
00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 3: to independence and abdicated his position. Then was elected by

452
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 3: an overwhelming majority, so people seem pretty happy with this,

453
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 3: But then he goes out of town and there is

454
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 3: a coup that is orchestrated by two government officials who

455
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 3: are his opponents, and they only had support from a

456
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 3: small minority of Cambodian elites, but some believe they were

457
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 3: aided by the Americans, probably true. So these officials take over.

458
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,119
Speaker 3: They allow the Americans to invade the southern border with

459
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,440
Speaker 3: Vietnam to force out North Vietnamese fighters, and the influx

460
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:19,919
Speaker 3: of American money into Cambodia ushers in a time of

461
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 3: prosperity for some, including Hang's father, who buys a second

462
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:28,160
Speaker 3: lumber mill. But in the countryside, poor and more rural

463
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:33,080
Speaker 3: Cambodians are coalescing their support around Sianak, now in exile

464
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 3: in China, who has always been He'd always been beloved.

465
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:39,639
Speaker 3: People believed that he was appointed by God or that

466
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,159
Speaker 3: he was a god and behind this unlikely ally to

467
00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:47,080
Speaker 3: the countryside and poorer Cambodians is the leader of Cambodia's

468
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:49,119
Speaker 3: communist party Polpot.

469
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:50,560
Speaker 2: Here we are here, we are okay.

470
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,560
Speaker 3: This group becomes the Kumer Rouge. They are actually ethnically

471
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,719
Speaker 3: Kumer and then Rouge I think means red, right, so

472
00:21:58,200 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 3: red is communists.

473
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:00,120
Speaker 1: Hey.

474
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 3: So in nineteen seventy five, the Khmer Rouge, under the

475
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,920
Speaker 3: leadership of Polepot but with the encouragement of Sianak, marches

476
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 3: into PanAm Pen and deposes the new government.

477
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: They take over.

478
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,879
Speaker 3: The regular Cambodians who are there are kind of rejoicing,

479
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 3: thinking that finally the Kumar Rouge are going to bring

480
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 3: some kind of peace and normality, and quickly learn that's

481
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,280
Speaker 3: not true. It's a big part of the movie The

482
00:22:24,359 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 3: Killing Fields.

483
00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 1: Right.

484
00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 3: So, the Kumer Rouge launch a new ultra authoritarian communist

485
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 3: regime that they nickname Year zero, like shit is over.

486
00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: Everything you thought you knew done gone. The idea is

487
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:42,320
Speaker 3: that the country is starting from scratch and educated people

488
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,040
Speaker 3: and professionals are specifically targeted to be killed or imprisoned.

489
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,959
Speaker 3: So it basically comes this ultra ultra communist country and lifestyle.

490
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 3: All private property is outlawed, every aspect of life is

491
00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: dictated by the pullpot regime.

492
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: There's no such thing as private property. There's no money.

493
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 3: You can't even have your own cooking utensils and make

494
00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 3: yourself food. You have to eat in the big groups

495
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 3: because everyone is equal. You can't wear glasses. Husbands and

496
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 3: wives are separated, children are separated. It's just becomes this prism. Yeah,

497
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 3: there's no money, there are no clocks or calendars. Citizens

498
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 3: are just assigned to labor details and non Khmers especially

499
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,040
Speaker 3: become forced laborers, so they're all sent out of the

500
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:30,920
Speaker 3: big cities back into the countryside to work. When Ali

501
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,679
Speaker 3: wrote note to Georgia, it feels important to mention that

502
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 3: this vision of communism is often used as a reason

503
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 3: why we shouldn't have any kind of socialized systems like healthcare.

504
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 3: But this is authoritarianism, and whenever it's ideology is communist

505
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,920
Speaker 3: or fascist, it can result in similar violence and wiping

506
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 3: out of civil liberties.

507
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, so thank you Ali for noting that.

508
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, you put authoritarianism on really anything, right, and it

509
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:55,880
Speaker 2: turns into the exact same thing.

510
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 3: So when all of this have begun, as I said,

511
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 3: Hang is a doctor at that moment that everything gets changed.

512
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 3: He is operating on a patient when the Khmer rouge

513
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 3: storm the clinic that he's in. One operative holds a

514
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 3: gun to his head and asks him if he is

515
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,560
Speaker 3: the attending physician, which he is, but as I said,

516
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:19,679
Speaker 3: and he educated professionals are wiped out, so he lies

517
00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 3: and says the attending had just stepped out of the room,

518
00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 3: essentially posing as a lower level clinic staffer, which saves

519
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 3: his life. He can't tell anyone he's a doctor. He's

520
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 3: then caught up in a force evacuation from phenomen Pen

521
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 3: and is separated from his girlfriend Hooi and his family

522
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: separated from everyone, so Hang lies about being a doctor.

523
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 3: Since educated people are automatically just being killed, Hang, like

524
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 3: most other people, is assigned to an agricultural labor detail

525
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 3: in which he is required to push.

526
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 1: A plow through fields. That is a job that livestock would.

527
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:55,719
Speaker 3: Have primarily done, and they just put people on the

528
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 3: oxen cart to push through the fields.

529
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: They turned the whole country in to slave labor. Slave labor. Yeah.

530
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 3: During this period, between one point five and three million

531
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 3: people are killed in Cambodia through execution, starvation, and disease.

532
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 3: Hanging is tortured on multiple occasions, usually for stealing food

533
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 3: because he's starving. On one occasion, he's tied to a

534
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 3: tree overnight and he's bitten all over his body by

535
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 3: red ants. And on another occasion, he and multiple other

536
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 3: force laborers are put on crucifixes with their bare feet

537
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,639
Speaker 3: over smoldering fires, and he watches as a pregnant woman

538
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 3: who is being punished the same way die while this

539
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 3: is happening. And in the documentary he is interviewed in

540
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,439
Speaker 3: the States about what happened, what was that was like,

541
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 3: and he gets into some really gory details in front

542
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 3: of this audience and it's just horrible. But it's so

543
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 3: incredible that he is brave enough to tell the awful

544
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 3: things that they did.

545
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,679
Speaker 2: To people when they're being punished like this, What was

546
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: the justification?

547
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: Do you know?

548
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,879
Speaker 2: Like, what was the point of putting those people up

549
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 2: on crucifixes?

550
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: Well, they stole food. This is your punishment. But this

551
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 3: is awesome. So a lesson of everybody, everyone that this

552
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:05,679
Speaker 3: is what happens because everyone is equal, they get the

553
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,040
Speaker 3: same amount of food. If you're stealing food, you think

554
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 3: you're better than the government, you think you know more.

555
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 1: You're punished crucifixion.

556
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, Hang eventually does reunite with Hoy, who becomes pregnant.

557
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,880
Speaker 3: There's already not enough food to sustain someone who isn't pregnant,

558
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 3: and Hoi begins to starve. When she's seven months along,

559
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,240
Speaker 3: she goes into early labor, and obviously there's no way

560
00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 3: to get her any kind of medical attention, and there's

561
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 3: no medicine, there's no equipment.

562
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: And here's the thing.

563
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: Hang is a trained gynecologist, and he could have operated

564
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 3: attempted to save her, though he has no safe tools

565
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 3: or medicine, but the operation would likely kill her. He

566
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 3: knew that she was going to die either way. If

567
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 3: he attempted to save her, he would out himself as

568
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 3: a doctor, so he couldn't do anything. And Hoi dies

569
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 3: in his arms, and the baby dies too. After Hoy dies,

570
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: Hang actively tries to get killed.

571
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 2: He just does a fucking I mean, the guilt, the

572
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 2: horror of that, Like when you're in a survival situation

573
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 2: like that and you're just having to make these calls

574
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,160
Speaker 2: that are beyond and.

575
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:15,800
Speaker 3: I feel like there's so many people, Like when we

576
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 3: learn about Vietnam and Cambodia, it's like that's what their

577
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:20,919
Speaker 3: lives were like always, they were used to it, and

578
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: I think people need to remember that that's not the case,

579
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: like that it's the exact same thing, is if that

580
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 3: sorted happened to us right now, like the horror that

581
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 3: if you saw a pregnant woman being tortured is it's

582
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 3: not like you've been seeing that since you're a child.

583
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 3: You're used to it, which I think is sometimes the

584
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 3: justification in people's minds that it's like not as bad somehow.

585
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 2: I feel like anytime that is what's coming out of

586
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 2: your mouth.

587
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:43,880
Speaker 1: Right, that's what?

588
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Toulate, what are you talking about?

589
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? That?

590
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,360
Speaker 2: And also just the oppression, that level of extreme and

591
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: just like oppression as far as the eye can see,

592
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: is such a hopeless, horrible situation.

593
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: To be in.

594
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 3: I really don't think I would try to survive. I

595
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 3: really don't think I would. I mean, I've thought about

596
00:28:01,119 --> 00:28:03,320
Speaker 3: it so many times with like you know, the Holocaust too,

597
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 3: It's like I don't think i'd be walking.

598
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: I think i'd be Well, you say that, right, that's true.

599
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 2: You say that, But then remember the guy that basically

600
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: ran away from the Nazis and had to keep running

601
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: for like four months or something like. That's a human

602
00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: survival instinct. That's what you do. And if you can

603
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 2: get away, you do get away, and then you keep

604
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,199
Speaker 2: going and then you build from there, and then you

605
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,800
Speaker 2: get used to being scared, and then you help other

606
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: people that are scared. And I mean that's what every

607
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,959
Speaker 2: immigrant story really is.

608
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: Seriously, you don't let them win.

609
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, you go through the real shit and then you

610
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 2: come back and help other people go through shit. Right,

611
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 2: that's very, very dismissive of an experience. I'm two generations

612
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: away from yeah, and have no idea in terms of

613
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: what you are talking about. It is like, it's unbelievable.

614
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 1: You know it is.

615
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 3: This is going to sound so corny, but like generational trauma, right,

616
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 3: we all know that's a thing that's passed down, But

617
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 3: the fact that we're alive means there was also generational

618
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: like hutzpah, Yeah, meaning as they were traumatized, they stayed

619
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: alive and kept living and lived long enough to fall

620
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 3: in love and have children. And that's why we're alive.

621
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 3: So we have generational trauma for sure, Yeah, but we

622
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 3: also have whatever the fuck it was the chritzbah that

623
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:17,720
Speaker 3: kept them alive and.

624
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 2: A perfect source of real gratitude.

625
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, for every day so Hoy dies and Hang is

626
00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 3: over life. He steals food at every opportunity, just trying

627
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 3: to get killed, essentially, but somehow he makes it until

628
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy eight when the Vietnamese invade Cambodia. This sets

629
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 3: off a decade of warfare between the Kumar Rouge and

630
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 3: the Vietnamese. Now that there's the chaos of fighting to

631
00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 3: distract the Kumer Rouge, Hang has an opportunity to escape

632
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 3: with a large group. He travels to the Thailand border.

633
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 3: Out of the two hundred people that escape with his group,

634
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 3: only seventeen people make it alive across the Thai border.

635
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 3: The only living relative or person he knows at that

636
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 3: point is his young niece named Sofia, and they escape together.

637
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 3: Once in Bangkok, Hang works as a volunteer doctor at

638
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: a refugee camp. So despite all of these fucking horrors

639
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 3: that he's gone through, all this PTSD, he still becomes

640
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 3: He could just doesn't have to do anything but survive,

641
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 3: but instead he volunteers to be a doctor at this

642
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 3: refugee camp.

643
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: I bet you there's a part of him that was

644
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: just like, I finally get to.

645
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: Be a doctor, what I'm made for.

646
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: My skills, and like, actually do something about this horror

647
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: that I'm surrounded by.

648
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 3: Totally, Hang takes the only thing he has is a

649
00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: photo of Hoy, and when he escapes, he has it

650
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 3: professionally colorized and puts it into a custom gold locket

651
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 3: wears that around his neck so she can be close

652
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 3: to his heart at all times. And then he and

653
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: his young niece, Sofia move to the United States. So

654
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 3: Hang and Sofia, who's a teenager, now settle in Los

655
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 3: Angeles in nineteen eighty, almost their entire family, in addition

656
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: to Hoy had been killed by the Kumer Rouge. He

657
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 3: trained to take his board so that he can practice

658
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 3: medicine and works as a volunteer with refugees. So right

659
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 3: around this time, and this is just he could have

660
00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 3: lived the rest of his life out like that, but

661
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: for some reason, fate intervened and this Banana's thing happens

662
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 3: to him. Right around the same time, director Ronald Joffey

663
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 3: is preparing to make the film The Killing Fields. It's

664
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 3: based on the true accounts of two journalists, one a

665
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 3: Cambodian named derth Pran and one an American named Sidney Shanberg,

666
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 3: and they had written the book The Killing Fields. And

667
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 3: so the casting director, Pat Golden is working really hard

668
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,520
Speaker 3: to find the perfect person to play diff and hasn't

669
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 3: had any luck. So she somehow finagls her way into

670
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: a Cambodian wedding in order.

671
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: To scout for her actor brilliant.

672
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 3: Uh huh, And this is where she discovers Hang and

673
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 3: he is just seems like a really charming, happy person.

674
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 3: He's smiling and laughing a lot despite everything that happened

675
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: to him. He's very outgoing and gregarious. He says when

676
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 3: he was a kid, he was hyperactive, and he's just

677
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 3: really likable, and so something about him catches her eye.

678
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 3: It had never crossed Haang's mind to be an actor

679
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 3: in Cambodia at the time, actors are not particularly well

680
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 3: paid or respected. But he decides to go on an

681
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 3: audition and just have a good time with it. He's like,

682
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 3: here's a weird opportunity to have in my life.

683
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: Let's do it. And there's a video of his audition and.

684
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,360
Speaker 2: A man is a survivor of concentration camp. Right, He's

685
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: just like.

686
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,000
Speaker 3: Sure, yes, and he blows everyone away with his raw emotion.

687
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 3: And when you watch the documentary and you watch this audition,

688
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 3: you completely get it and you see that what he

689
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,960
Speaker 3: did is just took himself back to his actual pain

690
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 3: and the actual things he experienced of the story that

691
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 3: he is telling in this movie. It wasn't a hard

692
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 3: stretch for him. Yeah, and he's able to do it.

693
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 3: And so he's cast in the movie along with Sam

694
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 3: Waterston our Law and Order.

695
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: You know, the greatest man, the greatest actor ever to live,

696
00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: the greatest man ever to live.

697
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: Here's a photo of them from the Killing Fields. Look

698
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: at a young Samwise. I often, I know, damn.

699
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,040
Speaker 3: Ma, it's such an incredible movie, Like I get Full

700
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 3: Metal Jacket, but this is the movie that you should watch.

701
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: Also, just looking at his face. He had to go

702
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: to a reenactment of a thing he actually lived through.

703
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 3: Totally, and he just said he channeled it the whole time.

704
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: And also he was telling them what it was really

705
00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 3: like the whole time.

706
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: Wow.

707
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,920
Speaker 3: On set, Hang has that same access to all his

708
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: very real emotions and experiences, and he's able to consult

709
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 3: with the actors who hadn't had direct experiences with the

710
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 3: Kumaer Rouge. When the movie comes out in nineteen eighty four,

711
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 3: it bears the brutal truth of the Kumaer Rouge regime

712
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 3: to the world, and Hang is considered a front runner

713
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 3: for the Best Supporting Actor Oscar and you know who

714
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 3: he beat for Best Supporting Actor, somebody like Robert Duval

715
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 3: John Malkovich.

716
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 1: Oh, she was also in this movie.

717
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 3: Oh but John Malkovich like one of the greatest trained

718
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 3: actors of all time, and he went. And so that

719
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 3: year's Oscars are held at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, which

720
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,319
Speaker 3: is downtown, and Hang and Sophia live in Chinatown, so

721
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 3: they're like able to see where they're.

722
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: Thinking, walk home, change their clothes.

723
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 3: They are not in Beverly fucking Hills or Brentwood, Yes,

724
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 3: so they vastly underestimate how long it's going to take

725
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 3: them to get there in oscar traffic because they're like,

726
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,439
Speaker 3: it's five minutes away, it won't take us long. They

727
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 3: just barely make it on time. And they didn't realize

728
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 3: that the Supporting Actor Award is the first presented award

729
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 3: that night, So when they're announcing the nominees, they have

730
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 3: to put a photo of him up because he's not

731
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 3: even in his seat yet, like they can't pand.

732
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: His seat literally that late.

733
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: And as he's walking in, his name gets called and

734
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 3: he walks straight in and up to the fucking podium

735
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: and gives like the speech will make you cry.

736
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: It's so beautiful.

737
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 3: Here's a photo of him winning. Oh, it's just such

738
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 3: a beautiful moment. You can tell he's so tumbled by

739
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 3: this opportunity to show what happened to his people.

740
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's such a representative of like the Oscars

741
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: is the world kind of right, and so then it's

742
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: like underworld's good.

743
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.

744
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 3: And he brought his niece along. I think she was

745
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 3: fifteen at the time, and she was a tomboy and

746
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:12,279
Speaker 3: he said to her, you need to get a dress,

747
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 3: and she's like, I don't want.

748
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: To do this. She goes. Anyways, she's in the documentary.

749
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 3: So in his acceptance speech, he says, quote, this is unbelievable,

750
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: but so is my entire life. I wish to thank

751
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,720
Speaker 3: all members of the Motion Picture Academy for this great honor.

752
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 3: I think David Putnam, Roland Joffe for giving me this

753
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:30,920
Speaker 3: chance to act for the first time in The Killing Fields.

754
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 3: And I share this award to my friend Sam Watterson,

755
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:37,760
Speaker 3: Dith Pran, Sydney Shamberg, and also Pat Golden, the casting

756
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 3: lady who found me for this role. And I think

757
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 3: Warner Brothers for helping me tell the story to the world,

758
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 3: let the world know what happened in my country. And

759
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 3: I thank God Buddha that tonight I'm even here, I'm

760
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 3: not giving it what it deserves.

761
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: Well, you're not supposed to do it, That's okay, I

762
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 2: feel that, Oh no, But I mean just everything about

763
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 2: that is such a especially back then when it was

764
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: like the time of our tours. And I mean I

765
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 2: remember seeing The Killing Fields on Siskel and Ebert on

766
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 2: the weekend because of course my parents always watched that,

767
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 2: where I was like, oh, that's heavy.

768
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: I don't think I could watch that whatever.

769
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: I'm always like yeah, And that took over the zeitgeist

770
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 2: essentially that year, and everyone paid attention totally.

771
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 3: I mean, there were so many incredible movies coming out

772
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 3: at the time, so the fact that it broke through

773
00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: was really says a lot.

774
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,239
Speaker 1: About all of it.

775
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,400
Speaker 2: Go to hell, John Malkovich, and that's our message this podcast.

776
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 1: There's a me message. Oh my god, Johnood, we love you.

777
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 3: He's not here. He's not here, so mad. Yeah, but

778
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 3: our friend was going to tell him. I'm sure they're

779
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 3: from Paul. He's got to be friends with the fucking.

780
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: Those powerful character actors that know each other.

781
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, they must come on.

782
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 3: Okay, So Hayk gets more roles, but he also really

783
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 3: dedicates himself to telling the world what happened in his country.

784
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 3: He uses his famed get the message and goes on

785
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 3: a lot of like talk shows. At this point in

786
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 3: the late eighties and through the nineties, no one from

787
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: the Khmer Rouge has been punished, and their predecessors continue

788
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 3: to hold power in the Cambodian government, though the extreme

789
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: and genocidal policies have been walked back a bit. Polpot

790
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 3: goes into hiding. Hank testifies before Congress about his experiences

791
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,560
Speaker 3: and is an extremely outspoken critic of the Cambodian government

792
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 3: and one speaking engagement. He notes the brutality portrayed in

793
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 3: the Killing Fields, then saying, quote, the killing fields isn't

794
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 3: bad enough, suffering enough, bloody enough end quote. He does

795
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,600
Speaker 3: this work prolifically through the first half of the nineties,

796
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 3: he's actively speaking out against the current Cambodian government, which

797
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: again has vestiges of the old Kumer Rouge. In the

798
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 3: wake of the fall of Western Communism, Cambodia is in

799
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: a period of transition with some unrest, though nothing like

800
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 3: what he had seen, and Sianok is still influential and

801
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 3: somehow evades blame for the Kumer Rouge, even though he

802
00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:57,240
Speaker 3: had lent.

803
00:37:57,080 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: His support to it.

804
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 3: So this brings us back to the night that Hang

805
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,800
Speaker 3: is killed outside his Los Angeles apartment building in nineteen

806
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,400
Speaker 3: ninety six, and this is like I remember hearing about

807
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 3: this and it's just he's what the things he survived

808
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,759
Speaker 3: that will never understand and he comes to it's just

809
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 3: like I remember feeling shame that we did this to

810
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:23,120
Speaker 3: him after what he survived, Like our country, my city

811
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,879
Speaker 3: did this to him, you know. So Hang had been

812
00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 3: shot and he's found lying next to his car with

813
00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: his Rolex watch missing, but there's twenty nine hundred dollars

814
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 3: in cash undisturbed in his car, and the immedia impression

815
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,279
Speaker 3: in the news and among Hang's neighbors is that he

816
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 3: had been targeted by allies of the Cambodian government because

817
00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,439
Speaker 3: of his outspoken criticism. They immediately knew he was trying

818
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 3: to be silenced. Other people raise the possibility that organized

819
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 3: crime could be involved, since Hang had several business interests

820
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 3: in Cambodia, including his family lumber yard.

821
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 1: Which he still had. So it's a surprise to.

822
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 3: Everyone when three young men, all Asian American and all

823
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,960
Speaker 3: affiliated with a gang are charged with Hang's murder. All

824
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,760
Speaker 3: three men maintained that they had been about a mile

825
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 3: away at the time of Hag's death.

826
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:11,840
Speaker 1: At trial, prosecutors.

827
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 3: Say that the men had demanded Hang's locket with the

828
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 3: picture of Hoy in it, that he still wore, and

829
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 3: that he had refused to give it up, and this

830
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,720
Speaker 3: is why they killed him. That was the prosecution's story.

831
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 3: People take issue with its argument because Hans's pockets were

832
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 3: thought to have been undisturbed and there's twenty nine hundred

833
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 3: dollars left in his car. All three men are found

834
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 3: guilty on April eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, the same day

835
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 3: Pole Pot dies in exile in the jungle on the

836
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 3: Thai Cambodian border.

837
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 1: Wow Yeah. After Hang's death, Dith Pran, the journalist upon

838
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:46,959
Speaker 1: whose story The Killing Fields is based, says quote, he's

839
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: like a twin with me.

840
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:51,240
Speaker 3: He's my co messenger and right now I'm alone.

841
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: End quote.

842
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 3: There are no trials from members of the Khmer Rouge

843
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 3: until the early twenty tens, when the UN holds them

844
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 3: alongside the chem Bodian government. Three high ranking officials are

845
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,120
Speaker 3: sentenced to life in prison. During one of these trials,

846
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 3: the official says that Hang Nor's murder had been ordered

847
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 3: by the Kumer Rouge as retribution for his speaking out

848
00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 3: against the regime. An organization called the Innocent Center has

849
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 3: taken up the case of one of the three men

850
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,240
Speaker 3: who had been convicted of his murder. After the release

851
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 3: of The Killing Fields, hang had said quote, if I

852
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 3: die from now on, okay, this film will go on

853
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 3: for a hundred years.

854
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: And that is the story of the.

855
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 3: Life and legend of Cambodian American truth teller and hero

856
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 3: Hang Nor.

857
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: Wow.

858
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 3: I know, I almost did it at our LA live show,

859
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 3: but I was like, it's too heavy.

860
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: It's so heavy, I mean, but it's incredible. It's like

861
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,560
Speaker 2: that's what makes it like all of that, and then

862
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 2: you walk straight into the oscars and win. What a

863
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 2: life beyond.

864
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 3: I mean, what an incredible life, and what a strong

865
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 3: and what.

866
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 2: A great example for Asian American Pacific Islander Heritage month.

867
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: Yes, I mean it is though it is.

868
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,359
Speaker 2: That's a great example of someone who's been through an

869
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 2: absolute governmental nightmare, basically the fabric of reality falling apart

870
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 2: around him, trying to just dying and losing everything, dying,

871
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 2: being murdered, being murdered, and then being an immigrant where

872
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 2: he just builds and builds and builds and builds and

873
00:41:30,520 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 2: then comes back to do something about.

874
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: It, totally doesn't just move on with his life. Incredible. Yeah,

875
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 1: So hang Nor.

876
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 2: Well, we are going to take a left turn. Please,

877
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: I don't want to surprise you. But this is also

878
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 2: based on the Dead Kennedy song. That's not true at all,

879
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: and it's actually maybe the complete other end of the spectrum.

880
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: This story is the main story. If you were a

881
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 2: kid in the nineties and in elementary school a teacher

882
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 2: read you a book about a family of pioneers.

883
00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 1: Christiane bears close.

884
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: It's called Apples to Oregon by a writer named Deborah Hopkinson,

885
00:42:10,239 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 2: and it follows an eighteen hundred's Midwestern family in their

886
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 2: westward journey, and it is loosely based on the life

887
00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: of a successful horticulturalist who's also known as the Johnny

888
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 2: apple Seed of the West. Oh yeah, there's the story

889
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:26,800
Speaker 2: of his life. After all his pioneering days were over

890
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 2: and his fruit trees were planted, he went into a

891
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: different branch of life. He attempted to start what's been

892
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 2: described as a doomed Quaker sex cult. Oh dear, this

893
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 2: is the story of horticulturalist Henderson Llewelling. Okay, are you ready?

894
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 1: I'm so ready, Okay.

895
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 2: Main sources used for today's story are reporting by Finn J. D.

896
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 2: John from the Offbeat Oregon website, writing by Heather Arn't

897
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 2: Anderson from Portland Monthly, and archival editions of the Iowa

898
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:01,440
Speaker 2: Journal of History and the Sacramento b your favorite newspaper.

899
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 2: And the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

900
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,600
Speaker 2: So Henderson Lewelling's story begins in eighteen oh nine when

901
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: he is born to a Quaker family in North Carolina.

902
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 2: So this is one of those eighteen hundred stories that

903
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 2: there's spotty reporting on some stuff. It's back far enough

904
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 2: that it's like we're pretty sure that he blank blanklink.

905
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,919
Speaker 2: There's a lot of that kind of storytelling historic. It's

906
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 2: very prehistoric in that it is like pioneer era life, right.

907
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 2: Not a lot of when you're out on the prairie

908
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 2: fighting for your life. Not a lot of diary keeping,

909
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 2: not a lot of daily there's not a lot of journaling.

910
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: A lot of sources to find the truth.

911
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 2: We needed more scrap booking back then.

912
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,240
Speaker 1: Definitely we're blogging.

913
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: Oh my god, just ofvlogging on a nice stone outside

914
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 2: of town, down by the river.

915
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:51,320
Speaker 1: Okay.

916
00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 2: So, when Henderson is in his teens, he and his

917
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 2: family and many other Southern Quakers moved to Indiana, likely

918
00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 2: influenced by the Quaker community growing opposition to slavery, so

919
00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: they wanted to get out of the South. And when

920
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 2: they moved to Indiana, Henderson's father opens a nursery and

921
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 2: he and his brothers help run. It's the family business.

922
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: He helps run it. He will later marry another Carolina

923
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: born Quaker, her name is Elizabeth Presnell, and when he's

924
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: in his twenties, Henderson opens his own nursery. So this

925
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: is a story for Janet. Oh my god, my mom

926
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: in love with this. She loves horticultures, such a horticulture

927
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: in the eighteen thirties. When Henderson is in his thirties

928
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,560
Speaker 2: because he was born around eighteen hundred, he moves west

929
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: again to eastern Iowa. So this is after the Blackhawk War,

930
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: and the federal government had forcibly removed both the Sock

931
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: and the Fox tribes from their land, and now they

932
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: were actively encouraging white settlers to come and basically settle

933
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 2: that land by selling it to them for next to nothing.

934
00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: So the Llewellings benefit from that and they settle in Salem,

935
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 2: Iowa again. Henderson opens a nursery. He offers high quality

936
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:09,200
Speaker 2: seedlings and grafted trees. So I know you know this

937
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: because your Danet's daughter. But grafting is when you take

938
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: the roots from a strong tree and you attach them

939
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 2: to the shoot or a bud from another tree so

940
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: that the produce is really good fruit. Your Frankensteining fruit trees.

941
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,360
Speaker 2: Essentially got it. It's what you did all summer, every summer.

942
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 2: So as more settlers arrive in Salem, virtually all of

943
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,919
Speaker 2: them become Henderson's customers, because this is basically like they're

944
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: settling this land and planting it, and he brilliantly or

945
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: you know whether or not it was intentional. He's in

946
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 2: this business that is always needed, like, no matter what,

947
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: there's a demand for basically being able to grow your

948
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:52,480
Speaker 2: own food. So Henderson's grafted trees reliably generate so many cherries, apples, pears,

949
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:56,240
Speaker 2: plums and peaches that, per one source quote, the local

950
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,320
Speaker 2: market could not absorb the yield.

951
00:45:58,800 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: Wow.

952
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: So he's making it possible for everybody to live large.

953
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: So his business is a massive success, and he and

954
00:46:06,040 --> 00:46:09,479
Speaker 2: Elizabeth take this prosperity and they invest it into their home,

955
00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: but not in the way that you would think, not

956
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: the usual pioneer luxuries red velvet curtains and soap. Instead,

957
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 2: they build trapdoors and hiding places and then offer it

958
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 2: as a stop on the underground railroad.

959
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:23,480
Speaker 1: Wow.

960
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 2: Because they are Quakers. Today that house is on the

961
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: National Register of Historical Places. The problem is that when

962
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 2: Lee Wellings Church learns that they are doing this for

963
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: the people searching for freedom that way, they do not

964
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 2: approve of it. Very Joel Osteen of them. So Henderson

965
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: decides that he's going to leave that church and start

966
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 2: his own church that is more full throated in its

967
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: condemnation of slavery. So at some point in the eighteen forties,

968
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 2: he opens the doors to his new place called Anti

969
00:46:55,640 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: Slavery Friends.

970
00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:58,359
Speaker 1: That's what he names his church.

971
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: Straightforward, just like with the banner right over the front door,

972
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 2: people will come, and they did so. Now he has

973
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 2: a successful business, he has a happy family, and he

974
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: has the glowing respect of his community.

975
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: But he wants more, as they always do, so he

976
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: literally guys, guys, stop it.

977
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: They can't help it, especially if they read pamphlets, which

978
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: was the vlogging of the pioneer days. So Henderson reads

979
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: some pamphlets about the Lewis and Clark expedition that went

980
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 2: from eighteen oh four to eighteen oh six. I say,

981
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,439
Speaker 2: as if I knew that, and he finds it all

982
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 2: very romantic, the adventure and the discovery. More importantly, he

983
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: learns that despite the fact that the Pacific Northwest has

984
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 2: very fertile land, it doesn't have a variety of high

985
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 2: quality fruit trees growing there. So instead of settling into

986
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 2: the life that he's built in Iowa, he starts thinking

987
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 2: about starting it all over again in the Pacific Northwest.

988
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 2: No one can understand why he would want to give

989
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 2: up everything and start over in an unfamiliar place for

990
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 2: a third time. But to me, there's his trauma right there.

991
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 2: He now needs to keep on doing. Yeah, that's how

992
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 2: he's in control. But Henderson will tell a friend quote,

993
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 2: it makes no difference how much a man has around him.

994
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 2: If he is not satisfied, he will go off and

995
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: leave it. So in April of eighteen forty seven, thirty

996
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,360
Speaker 2: nine year old Henderson and his wife and their eight children,

997
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 2: along with several other pioneering islands, set out in a

998
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 2: wagon train for the two thousand mile journey to Oregon.

999
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,080
Speaker 1: It's too many, and it's just a good things.

1000
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:34,520
Speaker 3: It's just someone's pregnant and like just having the worst

1001
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:36,319
Speaker 3: time of her life.

1002
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:36,959
Speaker 1: Keep going.

1003
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 2: And it's hot or it's cold, or it's middle You've

1004
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 2: always got a bonad on always. So the Llewelling party

1005
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 2: consists of four wagons total, but Henderson has filled one

1006
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 2: of those wagons with seven hundred saplings and grafted trees

1007
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 2: so he can start his new nursery in Oregon. Author

1008
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 2: Heather Aren't Anderson writes, quote, it was an insane plan

1009
00:48:59,719 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: with little chance of success. Everyone mocked him for it.

1010
00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 2: He did it anyway, those mockers. So the blue Willing

1011
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:10,000
Speaker 2: family makes the brutal westward journey across the Missouri River

1012
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 2: over the Rocky Mountains. So they've got their pioneer wagon.

1013
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: Some of these trees are stretching out of the Pioneer

1014
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 2: wagging like four feet. It's so clunky and so bad

1015
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 2: for that kind of travel. It requires constant upkeep. It's

1016
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 2: also filled with soil, like the trees are planted in

1017
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 2: back of the wagon, so it's incredibly heavy. There's genuine

1018
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 2: concern that Henderson's oxen are going to give out under

1019
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 2: this wagon's weight. Members of the wagon train repeatedly suggest

1020
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 2: that he ditches nursery wagon.

1021
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: No, no, it's the whole point.

1022
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 2: It's the whole point. But else they're just like, come on,

1023
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,160
Speaker 2: come on, there's trees everywhere, which you have to admit.

1024
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: It'd be like bringing a big wagon a dirt and

1025
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:52,399
Speaker 2: just be like, we have to bring this good dirt.

1026
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:55,440
Speaker 2: Is the dirt, This is the Iowa dirt. Henderson is committed,

1027
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 2: and seven months, very long months after leaving Iowa and

1028
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:03,800
Speaker 2: no November of eighteen forty seven, the Llewellings finally arrive

1029
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 2: in oregons will Lammett Valley. Against all odds, the trees

1030
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 2: and saplings make it too.

1031
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: I've been there. It's so gorgeous, so beautiful.

1032
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's where all the good stuff is.

1033
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1034
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:17,439
Speaker 2: So they settle just south of Portland. Henderson immediately gets

1035
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 2: to work clearing his property of the large fir trees

1036
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 2: that are on it so that he can lay out

1037
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: his nursery, which will end up being another huge success

1038
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 2: and it will be the first grafted tree nursery on

1039
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 2: the Pacific Coast. It seems like I'm really being an

1040
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: arborist or something, and it's just part of this story

1041
00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,760
Speaker 2: because I'm going to pretend like I am just super

1042
00:50:38,760 --> 00:50:42,520
Speaker 2: into trees. Just pretend like that's always been my personality

1043
00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 2: all the way up until this point.

1044
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 3: Definitely, you're a tree in influencer. Yeah, everyone knows that.

1045
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,520
Speaker 2: That's when you find out that I've been dating a

1046
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,000
Speaker 2: guy that's really into trees, and then suddenly I am too.

1047
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: That's so hot. Just a big tree guy, a lumberjack,

1048
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: just so sort of a I don't.

1049
00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 2: Know, landscaper of some kind. But point of all of

1050
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: this is this man had a career. He also had

1051
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 2: a very strong spiritual life. He was living in his

1052
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: very settled ways in many ways, but then in eighteen

1053
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: fifty one, his thirty five year old wife, Elizabeth, the

1054
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: mother of his now ten children, dies of complications during

1055
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 2: her eleventh pregnancy. So some speculate that this loss changes him,

1056
00:51:23,320 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 2: with one Luwelling family historian writing quote, his life sort

1057
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:28,960
Speaker 2: of fell apart, and he was adrift without an anchor,

1058
00:51:29,320 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: seeking for something to fill that void and never finding

1059
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: it end quote. So Henderson Lewelling is grieving, but he

1060
00:51:36,280 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 2: is also in the most prosperous era of his life,

1061
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 2: producing and selling sought after trees that help build up

1062
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 2: Portland's settler economy. But of course he wants more, and

1063
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 2: that's when he learns it. Down in California's mining towns,

1064
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,879
Speaker 2: there's such a huge demand for reliable, high quality fruit

1065
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 2: trees that people will pay one eighteen fifties dollars for

1066
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:01,240
Speaker 2: an apple tree seedling, but essentially today's seedlings in today's

1067
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six money costs ten dollars. Oh wow, So

1068
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: that's how blowing, you know. It's just basically the seller's

1069
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,319
Speaker 2: market in the California mining towns. So Henderson is now

1070
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: in his mid forties. He sells his Oregon business to

1071
00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,040
Speaker 2: a family member, and he heads south in eighteen fifty four,

1072
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 2: he winds up in the Bay Area and establishes a

1073
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 2: major nursery that he names Fruitvale, in property that has

1074
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 2: since been absorbed into the city of Oakland. You know

1075
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 2: the Fruitvale Station, which is the infamous train station where

1076
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 2: the shooting took place. So Fruitvale was a big part

1077
00:52:34,120 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: of the city of Oakland's kind of establishment, and Henderson

1078
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 2: is in the center of it, cultivating hundreds of thousands

1079
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: of fruit trees, apricots, grapes, apples, cherries, all to be

1080
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 2: planted throughout California. One write up notes, quote again, Henderson

1081
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 2: was a no small measure responsible for the beginning of

1082
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 2: the great fruit industry of another Pacific Coast state, an

1083
00:52:55,320 --> 00:52:58,399
Speaker 2: industry which has brought more wealth to California than all

1084
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: the gold the state has produced.

1085
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 3: I grew up in Orange County. I was aware of

1086
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:04,359
Speaker 3: it as a young child.

1087
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 2: I mean everywhere. And it's kind of funny because then

1088
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 2: when you fly up to the Pacific Northwest, like one

1089
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: of the first things you hear about are like the

1090
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,200
Speaker 2: Marion Berris or the you know, like all of that

1091
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,239
Speaker 2: and farmland that's in the Willammette Valley totally so once

1092
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 2: he gets to California, though, Henderson kind of starts going

1093
00:53:23,160 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 2: through a reinvention. He's perfectly middle aged, he's a widower,

1094
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 2: he's been working his ass off all his life, and

1095
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:33,319
Speaker 2: he's been a Quaker. But now he's crossing paths with

1096
00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 2: radical thinkers, including people who are in his own Quaker community,

1097
00:53:38,360 --> 00:53:42,319
Speaker 2: but that are now experimenting with new belief systems like

1098
00:53:42,719 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 2: the utopian movement, which was the idea that a perfect

1099
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 2: society could exist, or the free love movement, which posits

1100
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,720
Speaker 2: that marriage is oppressive and sexist and that sexual norms

1101
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 2: should be looser, or the alternative health movements like vegetarianism,

1102
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 2: where people fall for both health reasons and moral reasons,

1103
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,760
Speaker 2: or they moralized it. And of course it's the eighteen fifties,

1104
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 2: so you got to have spiritualism, I was wondering. Yeah, yeah,

1105
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 2: it's right in there, the belief that the living can

1106
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: contact the debt. So there's a ton of overlap in

1107
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 2: all these ideas. They're all zeitgeisty, particularly in the Bay Area,

1108
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 2: which even then had a reputation for being open minded.

1109
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 2: So it's easy to see why Llewelling finds all of

1110
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:29,959
Speaker 2: this to be appealing as a fierce abolitionist, the idea

1111
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: of liberating people from unjust institutions is important to him,

1112
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: and then the idea of personal liberation as a central

1113
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: tenant in the free love movement. He's also kind of

1114
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: a single guy out there, like, hey, what about what

1115
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,839
Speaker 2: if this was cool to the average pioneer. Vegetarianism might

1116
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 2: seem weird, but it's a long held Quaker tradition, so

1117
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,479
Speaker 2: it's not weird to him. And of course Henderson would

1118
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,760
Speaker 2: embrace spiritualism while coping with the death of his wife,

1119
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 2: and that is kind of the gateway to the broader

1120
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:04,439
Speaker 2: idea of utopia, where society and the self are things

1121
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 2: that can be harmonized brought into harmony. But at that point,

1122
00:55:08,360 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 2: this is where things go very far away from the

1123
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:15,080
Speaker 2: Johnny Appleseed kind of folk hero stuff and into stranger terrain.

1124
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 2: Because now it's the late eighteen fifties, Henderson's in his

1125
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:22,280
Speaker 2: late forties. He either starts this group or he links

1126
00:55:22,400 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 2: up with this San Francisco based group called the Harmonial Brotherhood,

1127
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 2: and there are sources that say he started it, but

1128
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 2: it isn't totally clear. But basically, there's no intricate day

1129
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 2: and day out details of the Harmonial Brotherhood. But what

1130
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 2: we do know is it's made up of about twenty people, men, women,

1131
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 2: and children, and many of them come from Quaker backgrounds,

1132
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 2: and now they subscribe to a blend of spiritualist, utopian

1133
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 2: and free love beliefs just like him, fun right and plums.

1134
00:55:53,400 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: So in the pursuit of personal quote harmony, they follow

1135
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 2: strict vegetarian diet, they swear off caffeine, and they favor

1136
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 2: spiritualism adjacent treatments of the day, like hydropathy, which is

1137
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,760
Speaker 2: basically baths, wraps, cold plunges.

1138
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,280
Speaker 3: Honestly, it sounds way better than some of the movements

1139
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 3: and religious fucking evangelicals from back then.

1140
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:17,920
Speaker 2: Hell yes, it sounds like goop.

1141
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: I mean, am I wrong?

1142
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,480
Speaker 2: Or they're definitely right about a lot of it and

1143
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,680
Speaker 2: kind of right headed about a lot of it.

1144
00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:30,200
Speaker 1: But what usually happens, you know, Jim Jones comes along.

1145
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 2: There's always someone with transition lenses is going to fucking

1146
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 2: ruin your utopia. So the Brotherhood's hydropathy practitioner is a

1147
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:43,279
Speaker 2: man who is either a spiritualist preacher or a blacksmith,

1148
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:47,439
Speaker 2: depending on who you're reading, and he also was once

1149
00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 2: a circus performer, so he can do it all.

1150
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 1: Definitely.

1151
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:53,840
Speaker 2: The one thing he's not trained as is a formal

1152
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,800
Speaker 2: medical physician, and yet he is referred to as doctor

1153
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:00,480
Speaker 2: Tyler or doctor T. And he's the one that the

1154
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,080
Speaker 2: water treatments are all coming from Doctor T. Okay, So

1155
00:57:03,160 --> 00:57:05,759
Speaker 2: there's an idea that doctor T kind of started this

1156
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 2: group because he's got all the treatments and the things

1157
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,719
Speaker 2: that he's as. They're spiritual together. He's the one that's like,

1158
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 2: but I can actually lay some hands on and make

1159
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:14,240
Speaker 2: some changes.

1160
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: Okay.

1161
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: So the Brotherhood shares a dream of men and women

1162
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 2: living as equals in a state of excellent physical and

1163
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: spiritual health in a free love utopia, entering and exiting

1164
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: relationships at will or as Heather aren't. Anderson, the writer

1165
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 2: puts it quote an individual's rights to bang anyone they fancy.

1166
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 2: She wrote that, yeah, because essentially that's what they're doing.

1167
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, and doesn't sound like the worst life I've ever

1168
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 1: heard on this podcast.

1169
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:42,920
Speaker 2: No. And also at this time there were other US

1170
00:57:43,000 --> 00:57:46,720
Speaker 2: based religious groups doing exactly the same thing. It's possible

1171
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 2: that they heard about the Oneida community in upstate New York,

1172
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 2: which was established in the eighteen forties and remained as

1173
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 2: a utopian, freelove Christian sect for decades, famously manufacturing the

1174
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 2: kitchen where you might have in your home.

1175
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:03,000
Speaker 1: Right now, fucking right. You covered that right?

1176
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 2: No, actually I didn't, because Maren then writes note to

1177
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:08,959
Speaker 2: Karen Oneida could be fun to someday cover. Oh my god,

1178
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:13,200
Speaker 2: doing it dips. Okay, But as progressive as a place

1179
00:58:13,200 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 2: like San Francisco can be, it's not remote or rural

1180
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 2: upstate New York. And so the Brotherhood's values are far

1181
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 2: too radical for the average.

1182
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: Joe down on Market Street.

1183
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 2: They realize that to live out their utopian vision, they're

1184
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 2: going to have to go somewhere more isolated, no prying eyes,

1185
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 2: where they can build their new society and peace. It's weird,

1186
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 2: it is. It is like a footprint, like a blueprint

1187
00:58:34,800 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 2: for Jim Jones.

1188
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: It follows the trajectory of a cult. Yeah yeah.

1189
00:58:38,520 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 2: And so this is where Henderson steps up and steps in.

1190
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 2: He's the richest member of this brotherhood, and of course

1191
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 2: he's willing to sink all of his fruit Tree money

1192
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,800
Speaker 2: into this cause. If you think about all the risks

1193
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:54,680
Speaker 2: he's taken He's completed multiple cross country trips and reinvented

1194
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: himself like three times, so and it's always worked. Why

1195
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 2: would he not think he could do this? So he

1196
00:59:01,080 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 2: sells the bulk of his California business and pours his

1197
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 2: money into a big schooner. He buys the boat himself,

1198
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: and then he buys a fifty thousand acre sparsely populated

1199
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 2: volcanic island off of Honduras, oh called Tiger Island.

1200
00:59:16,760 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: This is so jim, This is so yeah. People's downfall, Yeah, exactly.

1201
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 2: A lot of people are caught off guard by Henderson's

1202
00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 2: deep entanglement with the Harmonial Brotherhood, none more than his

1203
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:32,640
Speaker 2: new wife Mary, who's been kept out of the loop

1204
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:37,080
Speaker 2: on this whole Honduras Utopia plan from the beginning. She

1205
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 2: is not invited. Oh so she's not in it and

1206
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 2: she's not inviting. Yeah. Really, So, when she learns that

1207
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 2: her husband is about to abandon her, knowing that she

1208
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 2: will be left destitute, she tries to have him committed,

1209
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 2: and that actually is phrased very like it's one to

1210
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 2: the other. But there's also the chance she has been

1211
00:59:55,840 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 2: living with this man who's increasingly wearing transition lenses inside

1212
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 2: the house, and so she knows maybe something needs to

1213
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:03,280
Speaker 2: be done right.

1214
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:05,919
Speaker 1: It might not just be because it might fee legit.

1215
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly, she might not just be covering your ass.

1216
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:09,800
Speaker 1: But we'll never know.

1217
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:12,520
Speaker 2: And the thing is, the courts agree with her, and

1218
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:16,440
Speaker 2: the police are dispatched to go find him, but Henderson

1219
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,120
Speaker 2: is two steps ahead of everybody. He's gone into hiding

1220
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 2: until October eighth, eighteen fifty nine, when the Harmonial Brotherhood

1221
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:28,200
Speaker 2: schooner sets stail out of San Francisco with nine male members,

1222
01:00:28,240 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 2: five female ones, and six or seven children on board.

1223
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:34,919
Speaker 2: Good Bye bye, guys. But Henderson's not on board. He's

1224
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,760
Speaker 2: actually watching the schooner from shore, and once it sails

1225
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 2: into the bay and then passes the place that the

1226
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,560
Speaker 2: Golden gate Bridge wants will be, he waits to see

1227
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 2: if any boats come up and try to arrest anybody

1228
01:00:47,160 --> 01:00:50,640
Speaker 2: on it. Once he sees that that doesn't happen, he

1229
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 2: gets onto a smaller boat and under the cover of

1230
01:00:53,360 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 2: midnight and moonlight, boards the schooner undetected.

1231
01:00:57,800 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 1: Out in the open ocean. Smart move.

1232
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:04,640
Speaker 2: It's pretty cool or incredibly paranoid. So now they're sailing

1233
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: for Honduras. The boats crewed by hired sailors, not members

1234
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:11,600
Speaker 2: of the Harmonial Brotherhood, and those sailors quickly realize this

1235
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:13,960
Speaker 2: is going to be a weird ride, and they will

1236
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,000
Speaker 2: later give statements. They're the reasons that we know what

1237
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,400
Speaker 2: is happening on this trip, and so their statements to

1238
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:21,920
Speaker 2: reporters shape what we know.

1239
01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: Essentially.

1240
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 2: For example, living conditions on board are physically miserable, with

1241
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 2: passengers eventually being quote more or less covered with vermin.

1242
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 1: Good.

1243
01:01:31,400 --> 01:01:33,960
Speaker 2: Maybe they didn't know how to stock the ship or

1244
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 2: pack vegetables. They had so many vegetables. Yeah, Also, tensions

1245
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:41,920
Speaker 2: over food escalate very quickly because they're vegetarian. It's a

1246
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:46,320
Speaker 2: tough reality at sea. Their onboard diet consists mostly of

1247
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 2: quote coarse flour apparently ground up with chaff, straw and all,

1248
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 2: and very much resembling cattle feed. Chaff is that outer

1249
01:01:55,320 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 2: husk that you sometimes get stuck in your teeth if.

1250
01:01:57,760 --> 01:02:01,440
Speaker 3: You eatal oh oatly Oh yeah ye the Odie parsh.

1251
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,120
Speaker 2: Basically, they are starving on this ship. So then when

1252
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 2: they stop at ports along the way, some members get

1253
01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 2: caught quote dietary cheating.

1254
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 1: Oh shit, give me that bacon exactly.

1255
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 2: Buying salted pork and game meat, because that's exactly what

1256
01:02:16,800 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 2: I know for it's likely.

1257
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:20,800
Speaker 1: You get a big hunk of beef jerky, chew on

1258
01:02:20,840 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 1: it for mil to night and just chewing on it.

1259
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:24,960
Speaker 2: The people who do this are caught red handed, and

1260
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 2: then heated arguments break out among the brethren because not

1261
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 2: only are you hoarding food, but it's against your beliefs.

1262
01:02:32,040 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's not hot.

1263
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 2: So the biggest rift on the ship about food is

1264
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 2: known as the egg Boar, and it starts in Wahawka, Mexico,

1265
01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:44,360
Speaker 2: when a merchant swindles both Doctor T and Henderson. His

1266
01:02:44,600 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 2: colon involves eight chicken eggs. Basically, Henderson sees him with

1267
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:50,720
Speaker 2: the eggs, he runs up and says, I'll take all

1268
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 2: of them. The seller sells him the eight eggs and

1269
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:56,600
Speaker 2: takes his money, and then Henderson runs away to go

1270
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 2: get a container to put the eggs in. And while

1271
01:02:59,160 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 2: he's away, Doctor T walks up and says, I want

1272
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 2: all eight of those eggs, and the guy's like, sounds good.

1273
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 1: Bad communication, No communication.

1274
01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 2: No communication. He sells them a second time and then

1275
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 2: disappears when Henderson comes back with his handful of straw

1276
01:03:13,320 --> 01:03:15,600
Speaker 2: or whatever it is that he found to carry the

1277
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 2: eggs in, he sees Doctor T holding them and they

1278
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 2: start fighting over which one of them actually owns these eggs.

1279
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,040
Speaker 2: We've all been there, sure, the Great egg War. But

1280
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 2: with these guys, they can't just work it up. They

1281
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,000
Speaker 2: can't go like, ah, we both were scared swindled. This

1282
01:03:32,040 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 2: is what it's like, you know, out on the open seas. Instead,

1283
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 2: they resent each other for days, culminating in an all

1284
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:40,680
Speaker 2: hands meeting on the ship.

1285
01:03:41,280 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 1: They're little bitches, both of them.

1286
01:03:42,920 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like everybody's fighting and it's ruining the

1287
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 2: crews for the rest of us.

1288
01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 1: It's really the vibe. The vibes are off.

1289
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 2: The vibes are so off. So they have a staff

1290
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 2: meeting and all hands meeting on the Lido deck and

1291
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 2: Henderson tells the group God wants him.

1292
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:59,880
Speaker 1: To have the eggs. Oh settled. Who knew, dude?

1293
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 2: They ever say that on Real Housewives? God wants me

1294
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 2: to have the eggs. So this fight is over. But

1295
01:04:05,640 --> 01:04:08,800
Speaker 2: apparently this works. Henderson winds up with the eggs, and

1296
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,080
Speaker 2: the only reason we believe it is because at this

1297
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:17,720
Speaker 2: same meeting, Doctor T vows to get revenge over eggs

1298
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:20,480
Speaker 2: over eggs. They haven't even landed on the island yet,

1299
01:04:20,520 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 2: and things.

1300
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 1: Are that bad.

1301
01:04:21,760 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 2: So clearly the two vegetarian free love alpha males are

1302
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 2: vying for control over the schooner and the spirit of

1303
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 2: the group itself as they do as they seem to

1304
01:04:32,200 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 2: always want to do. Doctor t is a blacksmith. Henderson

1305
01:04:35,640 --> 01:04:39,240
Speaker 2: is a rich pioneer who will win. Lay your bets,

1306
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 2: good luck players. It takes them several months to finally

1307
01:04:43,360 --> 01:04:46,000
Speaker 2: arrive at Tiger Island. So several more months of that

1308
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:51,160
Speaker 2: life and that strife I have bars. So when the

1309
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 2: schooner's crew is finally cut loose, they run to the reporters,

1310
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:58,040
Speaker 2: describing the journey as a free love Hell.

1311
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,040
Speaker 1: No such thing. You think those words wouldn't go together.

1312
01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:05,240
Speaker 3: But hey, and on a boat, and these are sailors.

1313
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 3: It's the first swingers cruise.

1314
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 2: Oh and these sailors are just like the weight staff.

1315
01:05:11,600 --> 01:05:15,760
Speaker 2: They're forced to stand by in the rented community.

1316
01:05:15,840 --> 01:05:18,080
Speaker 3: They know all the gossip because like they're just like

1317
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 3: in the background of everything.

1318
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my god.

1319
01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 2: Just not into it. They keep walking into the supply galley.

1320
01:05:24,760 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 2: Everyone's fucking back there. Sorry, don't let your kids listen

1321
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 2: to this episode, and they also document the hypocrisy among

1322
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:37,400
Speaker 2: the supposedly sexually liberated group members, mentioning a specific incident

1323
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:39,920
Speaker 2: in another port in Mexico where a male member of

1324
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:43,200
Speaker 2: the Brotherhood happens to end up at the same stream

1325
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 2: where the female members are skinny dipping or bathing. I mean,

1326
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 2: they have been on a boat for months, and Doctor

1327
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:52,919
Speaker 2: T shows up and becomes so irate that this other

1328
01:05:53,000 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 2: man has just seen his wife naked that he quote

1329
01:05:56,040 --> 01:06:00,720
Speaker 2: threatened to break every bone in his body unquote, so chill.

1330
01:06:01,120 --> 01:06:05,160
Speaker 2: So the blacksmith turned water doctor seems like maybe not

1331
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 2: always okay, or he's like me where when his blood

1332
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 2: sugar gets low, he threatens to kill it.

1333
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 1: Which is the whole time they're starting.

1334
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 2: They can't have any sugar, okay. So now California papers

1335
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:22,120
Speaker 2: are running sneering articles on this harmonious brotherhood utopian journey.

1336
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:25,800
Speaker 2: They're clocking all of it. Meanwhile, on Tiger Island, the

1337
01:06:25,880 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 2: gang is in rough shape. They're exhausted and they're depleted.

1338
01:06:29,040 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 2: They just arrived. Now they have to build the infrastructure

1339
01:06:32,160 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 2: needed to start like their little society. But immediately and

1340
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 2: very sadly, something like malaria or yellow fever sweeps through

1341
01:06:41,640 --> 01:06:44,520
Speaker 2: the camp and the terrible reality sets in for the

1342
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 2: group that Doctor T's hydropathy treatments are no match for

1343
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 2: real disease. One of the articles covering this will document

1344
01:06:52,320 --> 01:06:55,920
Speaker 2: the death of a Brotherhood member identified only as Missus C,

1345
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 2: which is so sad if you think Richie Cunningham's mother

1346
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:03,120
Speaker 2: dying this way, and they write quote, they took Missus

1347
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:05,640
Speaker 2: C while raging with the fever, wrapped her in a

1348
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 2: wet blanket till she perspired profusely, and then threw cold

1349
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:13,320
Speaker 2: water over her. The speedy result was her death.

1350
01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:16,800
Speaker 1: And what a fuck shitty way to go.

1351
01:07:16,920 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 2: Horrible after months eating the worst oatmeal of all time.

1352
01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 1: What was it all for? For real?

1353
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 2: Just to dive far away from home. Two members of

1354
01:07:26,400 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 2: the Harmonial Brotherhood died shortly after arriving at Tiger Islands

1355
01:07:30,240 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 2: the sea and another as many as eight get sick,

1356
01:07:33,680 --> 01:07:37,760
Speaker 2: including Henderson himself, but they recover. But there's only twenty

1357
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,400
Speaker 2: people on this ship, so morale is extraordinarily low. And

1358
01:07:41,520 --> 01:07:44,960
Speaker 2: make matters worse, the egg related rift between Henderson and

1359
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 2: Doctor T has not ended.

1360
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 1: Guys, let it go.

1361
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 2: We can't eggs eggs, precious eggs. Doctor T actually breaks

1362
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:57,160
Speaker 2: away from the main group with a few loyalists on

1363
01:07:57,200 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 2: his side, and starts a rival utopian society. Me and

1364
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:02,600
Speaker 2: my two friends are out.

1365
01:08:02,360 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 1: Of here on the other side of the island with

1366
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 1: our eggs.

1367
01:08:04,840 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 2: Literally they go, they move to another side of the island.

1368
01:08:07,840 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 2: They don't get me eggs. So soon after doctor T

1369
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,240
Speaker 2: gets sick and dies himself. Oh so you can't. There's

1370
01:08:14,280 --> 01:08:16,720
Speaker 2: no room to just be busting off and being mad

1371
01:08:16,760 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 2: about eggs. The point is not the eggs.

1372
01:08:19,120 --> 01:08:22,280
Speaker 3: God has other plans for you when you're chief and

1373
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 3: about eggs.

1374
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: Amen.

1375
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:28,479
Speaker 2: Okay, so from here the information is spotty because, as

1376
01:08:28,520 --> 01:08:30,640
Speaker 2: I told you, no one's keeping diaries. There are no

1377
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 2: scrap books from Tiger Islands.

1378
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 1: Was like, I want to write down stuff. Well, and

1379
01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 1: this is actually dying.

1380
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:38,920
Speaker 2: Yes, this is I got weird and high over eating

1381
01:08:38,960 --> 01:08:42,719
Speaker 2: too many vegetables and like having sex whenever I wanted,

1382
01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:46,080
Speaker 2: which seemed impossible. And now I'm in Honduras and I

1383
01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 2: don't know what's going on.

1384
01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 3: Maybe my wife was right to put me in a

1385
01:08:50,400 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 3: mental institution.

1386
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1387
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:56,200
Speaker 2: Oops, maybe my water treatments don't actually work. This is

1388
01:08:56,240 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 2: a musical Okay, it only took eight months for the

1389
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:04,639
Speaker 2: Harmonial Brotherhood's Free Love experiment on Tiger Island to implode.

1390
01:09:04,760 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 1: That's a long freaking time. Yeah. Yeah.

1391
01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:10,600
Speaker 2: What we know for sure is that in July of

1392
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:14,400
Speaker 2: eighteen sixty, Henderson Lewelling commissions a crew to sail his

1393
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:18,360
Speaker 2: schooner back to California. After this, when the group gets back,

1394
01:09:18,520 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 2: they disband for good.

1395
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 1: They seem to.

1396
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:24,840
Speaker 2: The entire saga is extremely humiliating for all parties involved

1397
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:27,920
Speaker 2: because they went out, you know, of course, guns a

1398
01:09:27,960 --> 01:09:30,320
Speaker 2: blazing of like, we're out of here. We are going

1399
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 2: to We're going to figure it out.

1400
01:09:32,040 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 1: That's right.

1401
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 2: Things are going to be so much better at our

1402
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:37,200
Speaker 2: new life. And this is always what I bring up

1403
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 2: in my argument against vegetarianism. Bring the bacon, Bring the bacon.

1404
01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 2: It's the old saying, bring the bacon, you won't fight

1405
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 2: so much about the eggs.

1406
01:09:45,320 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 3: Also the yeah, because put your protein difference between the

1407
01:09:48,479 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 3: fucking eggs and the bacon.

1408
01:09:49,520 --> 01:09:51,679
Speaker 1: Really it's a focus.

1409
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:55,479
Speaker 2: It's the lens through which it's so humiliating that Henderson

1410
01:09:55,560 --> 01:09:58,400
Speaker 2: Lewelling lives the rest of his life under a pseudonym.

1411
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 2: Oh of his family meanwhile carry on his horticultural mantle

1412
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 2: and continue producing popular crops on the Pacific Coast. His

1413
01:10:08,040 --> 01:10:12,760
Speaker 2: brother Seth is particularly successful, becoming famous for cultivating the

1414
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:14,759
Speaker 2: bing cherry in the eighteen seventies.

1415
01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 1: Yeah love that guy.

1416
01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:19,479
Speaker 2: Seth actually changes the spelling of his last name to

1417
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 2: Lleuwelling L E W E.

1418
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:25,160
Speaker 1: L L I to get away from the like damn So.

1419
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,839
Speaker 2: In eighteen seventy eight, while clearing land with a control

1420
01:10:27,880 --> 01:10:32,799
Speaker 2: burn for a new nursery in San Jose, California, Henderson

1421
01:10:32,880 --> 01:10:35,360
Speaker 2: Lewelling dies of a heart attack at the age of

1422
01:10:35,439 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 2: sixty nine. So he was starting it all over yet

1423
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 2: again in San Jose. This is a hard part to hear.

1424
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:46,639
Speaker 2: He's reportedly found quote partially roasted, with his clothes, beard,

1425
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 2: and the land around him still smoldering.

1426
01:10:49,720 --> 01:10:51,599
Speaker 1: So he got caught on fire and had a heart

1427
01:10:51,640 --> 01:10:52,599
Speaker 1: attack and died.

1428
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,320
Speaker 2: He was control burning, had a heart attack, dropped to

1429
01:10:56,360 --> 01:10:56,799
Speaker 2: the ground.

1430
01:10:57,560 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 1: Oh, and we're live control burn. I couldn't get away

1431
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:01,080
Speaker 1: from them.

1432
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:03,400
Speaker 2: Hopefully he died, but let's say he died.

1433
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:05,080
Speaker 1: Before their control burn. Oh God.

1434
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 2: In nineteen twenty nine, while musing on a sprout from

1435
01:11:09,080 --> 01:11:12,479
Speaker 2: one of Henderson's Oregon cherry trees. A writer named O. A.

1436
01:11:12,640 --> 01:11:17,719
Speaker 2: Garretson notes quote that this little cherry sprout originating at Salem, Iowa,

1437
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:21,400
Speaker 2: should withstand the risks of transportation across the continent, and

1438
01:11:21,439 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 2: the hazards of frequent transplanting, and still live a towering

1439
01:11:25,640 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 2: monument to commemorate the energy and enterprise of a Salem

1440
01:11:28,960 --> 01:11:32,839
Speaker 2: pioneer is to the writer, a fact stranger than fiction.

1441
01:11:33,680 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 2: And that's the story of the so called father of

1442
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 2: the Pacific fruit industry and Dirty Bird Henderson Llewelling. Oh,

1443
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 2: I didn't show you any fucking pictures.

1444
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:47,839
Speaker 1: It was so that you had the images and the words.

1445
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:49,679
Speaker 1: I didn't need it. I have it all in my mind.

1446
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:51,599
Speaker 2: I want to see some of them. Here's the book

1447
01:11:51,640 --> 01:11:52,559
Speaker 2: we were talking about.

1448
01:11:53,600 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 1: I think I read that as a kid.

1449
01:11:55,400 --> 01:12:01,719
Speaker 2: It seems so innocent. We'll just get ready, Okay, there.

1450
01:12:01,720 --> 01:12:05,520
Speaker 1: Is there is. There's a neck beard. Neckard.

1451
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:06,639
Speaker 2: This is crazy.

1452
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 1: This is the season of Neckbeard's on my favorite murder.

1453
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:13,040
Speaker 2: I guess this was like the Benson Boone mustache is today.

1454
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 2: This neckbeard was in eighteen fifty.

1455
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:17,599
Speaker 1: Because you look fine without it. What are you doing?

1456
01:12:17,760 --> 01:12:19,480
Speaker 1: She's like you put some sheep's.

1457
01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:23,080
Speaker 2: Wool it's kind of quakery. I mean, this seems to

1458
01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:24,400
Speaker 2: be the trend of the time.

1459
01:12:24,479 --> 01:12:27,080
Speaker 1: Okay. What else we got is that the schooner No

1460
01:12:28,400 --> 01:12:29,679
Speaker 1: I was paturing like a yacht.

1461
01:12:29,720 --> 01:12:30,719
Speaker 2: That's Tiger Island.

1462
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,839
Speaker 3: Great, Okay, there's the schooner.

1463
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's more what I thought.

1464
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 2: Still, it's not big and you can only have like

1465
01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 2: really crunchy oatmeal rough. Okay, so not even big enough

1466
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 2: for people to If the sailors from this boat are

1467
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 2: complaining about a free love situation, that weird them out.

1468
01:12:49,520 --> 01:12:57,960
Speaker 2: It's everywhere they were witnessing it front, back and center. Whoops. Okay,

1469
01:12:58,720 --> 01:13:01,280
Speaker 2: oh that's Lammett Valley at value. I know the willam

1470
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:02,720
Speaker 2: at value when I'm looking at it.

1471
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:05,320
Speaker 1: All right, Well that was great. Wow.

1472
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,519
Speaker 2: Yeah those are all these experiences you can have in life.

1473
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:08,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1474
01:13:09,040 --> 01:13:10,479
Speaker 1: I could go so many different ways.

1475
01:13:10,760 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 2: That's all we want people to remember, right, yesha, please

1476
01:13:13,960 --> 01:13:16,400
Speaker 2: stop forgetting the variety of.

1477
01:13:16,280 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: Life and enjoy yours because.

1478
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 2: Life is like a bing cherry. Yeah, it's expensive, stay sexy,

1479
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 2: I don't get.

1480
01:13:26,360 --> 01:13:37,000
Speaker 1: Goodbye, Elvis, do you want to cookie? This has been

1481
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:38,280
Speaker 1: an exactly right production.

1482
01:13:38,479 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 3: Our senior producer is Molly Smith, and our associate producer

1483
01:13:41,240 --> 01:13:41,960
Speaker 3: is Tessa Hughes.

1484
01:13:42,040 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 2: Our editor is Aristotle Ascevedo.

1485
01:13:44,120 --> 01:13:46,280
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

1486
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:49,040
Speaker 2: Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1487
01:13:49,160 --> 01:13:52,080
Speaker 1: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot.

1488
01:13:51,880 --> 01:13:54,679
Speaker 2: Com and follow the show on Instagram at my Favorite Murder.

1489
01:13:54,760 --> 01:13:57,599
Speaker 3: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1490
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:59,560
Speaker 3: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1491
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 2: And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

1492
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:04,160
Speaker 1: And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and

1493
01:14:04,200 --> 01:14:06,680
Speaker 1: the remind Me buttons. That's the best way you can

1494
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:11,600
Speaker 1: support our show. Goodbye,