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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, along

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Speaker 1: with my co host of Bonnie Quinn. Every business day

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Speaker 1: we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts,

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Speaker 1: along with essential market moving news. Kind of Bloomberg Markets

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Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com. We have some breaking vaccine news.

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Speaker 1: The Astro Oxford vaccine efficacy has been confirmed now in

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Speaker 1: peer reviewed data. Apparently the Astro Oxford vaccine prevents the

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Speaker 1: worst COVID symptoms in this particular study. It's effective, but

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Speaker 1: it does leave questions in older ages. This is all

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Speaker 1: according to a peer review study at ten hospitalization cases

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Speaker 1: seen in the trial. All occurred among those given a placebo.

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Speaker 1: Let's bring in somebody who knows a little bit more

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Speaker 1: about the background to this particular vaccine and has been

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Speaker 1: looking at the results and is looking at these headlines

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Speaker 1: as they come out. Now. Michelle Court has Health science

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Speaker 1: and medical technology reporter for Bloomberg. So Michelle, this is good,

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Speaker 1: but rossively speaking, is it as good as the other

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Speaker 1: vaccine news we've been hearing? You know, Vanni is a

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Speaker 1: great question, and it actually is not appearing to be

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Speaker 1: as effective as the Visor and Maderna trials. That being said,

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Speaker 1: there was a little bit of a hiccup with this trial.

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Speaker 1: In fact, there were there were a couple which is

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Speaker 1: really to be expected given the pace of development here.

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Speaker 1: They originally were only going to be using one dose

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Speaker 1: of the vaccine. Then they realized it would be more

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Speaker 1: effective if they did too, so they added that second

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Speaker 1: dose in later. And of course there was an issue

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Speaker 1: where some of the patients or some of the volunteers

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Speaker 1: in the trial got actually half of the dose in

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Speaker 1: that first injection than they were expected to get, and

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Speaker 1: that unexpectedly turned out to be much more effective vaccination

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Speaker 1: efficacy rate with that smaller first dose with only a

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Speaker 1: you know, six efficacy race in the people who got

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Speaker 1: both full doses. So that's unexpected. They're going to have

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Speaker 1: to be more research here. So Michelle, kind of have

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Speaker 1: we got anywhere clarity on that, uh, you know, that

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Speaker 1: half dose issue that we learned about a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago that seemed to surprise a lot of people

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Speaker 1: in the community, right, it is inexplicable. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: do know that the people who got that half does

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Speaker 1: were actually a younger group of patients, and so they

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Speaker 1: are less likely to get severe disease, they're less likely

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Speaker 1: to become infected. So there could be some explanation that

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Speaker 1: happening there, but indeed we don't exactly know what's going

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Speaker 1: on here. The company has said that they do plan

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Speaker 1: to do another trial to look at this specific effect.

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Speaker 1: That should not take as long to do because you're

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Speaker 1: just looking at how the body responds to the vaccine,

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Speaker 1: so we should be able to get through that pretty quickly.

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Speaker 1: But even when you're looking at the higher efficuity rates,

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Speaker 1: it's not quite reaching than levels that we're seeing with

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Speaker 1: sisor in the journal. It does appear that less is

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Speaker 1: more in this case, but that may not be the

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Speaker 1: full story. What does Astra do next? I mean, is

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Speaker 1: this good enough data to release the vaccine into the

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Speaker 1: wild as Fiser has already done, or do they have

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Speaker 1: to do more well. They have said that they're going

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Speaker 1: to be doing more as well, and of course the

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Speaker 1: fact is is that we're not going to have enough

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Speaker 1: vaccine to protect the entire world for some time to come.

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Speaker 1: So when you're looking at an epicacy rate with this

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Speaker 1: lower first dose, I mean that is still extraordinary. It

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Speaker 1: is absolutely unbelievable that they were able to get this effect.

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Speaker 1: This trial was done in some very high risk areas.

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Speaker 1: A lot of these patients were in Brazil, which is

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Speaker 1: having a massive outbreak, and the idea that you can

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Speaker 1: be getting this vaccine to people across the world who

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Speaker 1: would otherwise have no no protection against the virus is

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Speaker 1: really breath taking. Is you can't and you can't overestimate

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Speaker 1: how important it is. It is really important to be

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Speaker 1: getting all of these vaccines. Yeah, So Michelle, it seems

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Speaker 1: like again, you know, we were started this process when

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Speaker 1: we started talking about vaccines and we were kind of

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Speaker 1: told that if you get a fifty your efficacy rate, uh,

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Speaker 1: that's good. And obviously now we're getting much much higher rates.

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Speaker 1: So it seems to me that while the astro Zenka

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Speaker 1: perhaps is not on par with some of its competitors

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Speaker 1: or peers, it's still very good. Is that the expectation

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Speaker 1: that this is still a good uh number. It is

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Speaker 1: a good uh, it's good science, it's a good the vaccine,

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Speaker 1: and that it will be effective in the marketplace. Absolutely

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Speaker 1: it is. It's an astonishing vaccine. We're even seeing you know,

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Speaker 1: some some data coming out of this trial that we

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Speaker 1: haven't seen as much with the other trials. For example,

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Speaker 1: we know that the astro vaccine is preventing asymptomatic cases.

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Speaker 1: So for people who didn't show any signs or symptoms

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Speaker 1: of the disease but might still be infected, this vaccine

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Speaker 1: is actually protecting against that. That's very important to know

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Speaker 1: that there's not some latent level of vaccine circulating among

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Speaker 1: the people who got this vaccine. And you have to

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Speaker 1: remember the numbers are astonishing in this low dose group

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Speaker 1: of people. There were seven cases out of over a

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Speaker 1: thousand people who were treated with the vaccine, and that's

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Speaker 1: just amazing to think that you can get that kind

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Speaker 1: of efficacy, even if it's not, you know, in it.

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Speaker 1: In comparison, there was one in the Fiser trial. But still,

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Speaker 1: and we're talking about seven people. One people, it's a

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Speaker 1: handful of people. It's remarkable, no matter which way you

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Speaker 1: look at Yeah, that's amazing. Also, the fact that you

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Speaker 1: can prevent it, you know, in people who might otherwise

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Speaker 1: be asymptomatic, that's really important because it's the people who

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Speaker 1: don't have it that are that that you don't know,

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Speaker 1: have a that are dangerous. I mean, if somebody is

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Speaker 1: coughing in front of you, you're obviously not going to,

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Speaker 1: you know, go near them. But if there's somebody looking

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Speaker 1: completely healthy who may have the virus, you wouldn't know

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Speaker 1: that necessarily. So how is this different to the m

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Speaker 1: r N A platform. How are Oxford and Astra approaching

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Speaker 1: this differently to say Fiser and the others. Right, Well,

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Speaker 1: there are different technologies. The m RNA. Uh, the RNA

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Speaker 1: vaccines are brand new. There are no vaccines like this

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Speaker 1: out there in the world. This will be the first

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Speaker 1: vaccine using this technology ever developed. It is again, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it keeps staying remarkable, but it's just like, how do

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Speaker 1: you do that. It's a vaccine that we've never even

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Speaker 1: tried before, and they're like, well, let's try it, and

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Speaker 1: not only let's try it, but in less than ten months,

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Speaker 1: we're going to start from zero and actually get it

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Speaker 1: into people's arms. Um. The way that vaccine works is

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Speaker 1: it actually delivers a little bit of the genetic seapoint,

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Speaker 1: so yoursels are producing of the like protein showing your

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Speaker 1: immune system what they should be going after. The after

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Speaker 1: vaccine is a little bit different. It actually developed it

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Speaker 1: delivers the virus itself to inactivated version of it into

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Speaker 1: the cells themselves, and so then they are producing that

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Speaker 1: protein and so they know what to go after. It's

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Speaker 1: a different approach the same idea in terms of exposing

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Speaker 1: the immune system to the virus so that it will

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Speaker 1: know what to look at. The after vaccine will be

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Speaker 1: easier to deliver. It doesn't require this super cold gain

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Speaker 1: deliver a system that the Fiser and Maderna vaccines do need.

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Speaker 1: So there are different different approaches here. Each one has

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Speaker 1: different benefits and risks. You know, if you are a

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Speaker 1: country that is very hot that doesn't have great consistent electricity,

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Speaker 1: you're probably not going to want the Visor and Maderna

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Speaker 1: vaccine anyway, you might not have the technology to deliver that.

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Speaker 1: So having the ASTRA version would be helpful for these areas.

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Speaker 1: And Michelle, what do we know about the timing of

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Speaker 1: getting approval for this vaccine across the world. We're seeing

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Speaker 1: it almost daily, including today with the FDA and and

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Speaker 1: the Fiser news. What do we know about the ASTRA timeline. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because ASTRA was on hold longer in the

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Speaker 1: US than it was in other places, specifically in Europe

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Speaker 1: that is very cautious when it comes to reviewing all

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Speaker 1: of these vaccines, making sure that they're dotting every ion

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Speaker 1: cross in every two So when it looks like for

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Speaker 1: the US, ASTRA is going to be a wild delayed

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Speaker 1: here is probably going to take a you know, a

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Speaker 1: couple of months at least to get this additional trial

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Speaker 1: underway and to figure out exactly where we're going. Certainly

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Speaker 1: there are other countries where we will most likely see

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Speaker 1: AFTRA going much more quickly and getting their vaccine onto

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Speaker 1: the market in other areas more quickly. That could happen

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Speaker 1: within the next month or two. Michelle, this idea that

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Speaker 1: was out that the Trump administration didn't put in a

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Speaker 1: big enough order with Fiser, how is that being received? Well.

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Speaker 1: The Trump administration is saying that they have ordered enough

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Speaker 1: vaccine to cover the entire US population. Anybody who's interested

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Speaker 1: in getting vaccinated should be able to have access to

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Speaker 1: that by the end of the summer. What their approach was,

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Speaker 1: they were ordering a hundred million doses from each of

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Speaker 1: the different vaccine companies so that they would be broadening

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Speaker 1: out their exposure level. So if one doesn't work, then

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Speaker 1: they haven't already purchased an awful lot of that and

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Speaker 1: and not enough of something else, so they didn't broadly,

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Speaker 1: you know, order six hundred million doses across various vaccines.

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Speaker 1: Of course, now we know that there's one or two

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Speaker 1: that are highly effective, you want to get all of

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Speaker 1: that as much as you possibly can. And as you

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Speaker 1: point out, they have already sold that vaccine to other places,

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Speaker 1: so it's going to be yet until the summer before

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Speaker 1: they can start delivering more of those doses to the

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Speaker 1: US government. We'll have to see if we if we're

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Speaker 1: going to need those doses or not. At this point,

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Speaker 1: we're still getting results from the other vaccine manufacturers, and

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Speaker 1: there could be additional benefits. Maybe you only need one

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Speaker 1: shot from some of these vaccines. Those side effects they're

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Speaker 1: very mild, but they do occur, and they occur in

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Speaker 1: more than half of people in some cases. So there

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Speaker 1: are other vaccines that are being developed still that might

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Speaker 1: have less of those sort of issues, or maybe they're

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Speaker 1: more effective than older people. So there's still details to

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Speaker 1: be teased out here. It does look like, you know,

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a setback that the US isn't

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Speaker 1: going to get as much of this first sisor vaccine

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Speaker 1: as they want, but ultimately it's going to be hard

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Speaker 1: to get it into everybody, and so we have to

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Speaker 1: see how it plays out. Michelle, thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for joining us. We really appreciate your reporting there. Michelle Cortez,

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Speaker 1: Health science and medical technology reporter for Bloomberg News. Let's

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Speaker 1: move to Tesla. Paul, you mentioned it earlier on speaking

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Speaker 1: with Dave Wilson. It's up at six ninety five now,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it just continues to move on up.

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Speaker 1: It's going to sell shares as the proceeds of up

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Speaker 1: to five billion dollars. That just doesn't seem to be

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Speaker 1: any stopping the investors in this company. Let's bring in

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Speaker 1: Don Eves of web Bush, analyst on Tesla. So Don

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Speaker 1: talk to us about this share price isn't warranted? Should

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Speaker 1: we throw another five billion dollars at this company? Look,

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Speaker 1: it's a great question. I mean, we are books is

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Speaker 1: a thousand dollars and we continue to view this right

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Speaker 1: now as just a transformational market in terms of ev demand.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at evening market right now, Houselow's

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Speaker 1: World and everyone else, Pam Rent and I think that's

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Speaker 1: when that's what they're looking at they're looking at what

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Speaker 1: this market is going to be the next three to

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Speaker 1: four years. Obviously stock to continue to devout, but in

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Speaker 1: terms of playing the E V space when you look

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Speaker 1: out and I think that right now is why this

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Speaker 1: stock continues to move higher. They're just given the supply demand.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you d please, so Dan, give us a

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Speaker 1: sense here of use of proceeds. Here is just simply

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Speaker 1: let's shore up the balance sheet, raised capital when we can,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily when we need it. But that's exactly a pole.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a twelve billion in countering in

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Speaker 1: terms of what they have raised. Go back a year ago,

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Speaker 1: that was the biggest Bara thesis in terms of shoring

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Speaker 1: up the balance sheet. They were not profitable. Now you've

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Speaker 1: got profitability. They're hitting when the iron is hot in

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Speaker 1: terms of raising capital, and it really throws that bare

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Speaker 1: thesis out the window. And naturally the key when you

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Speaker 1: go forward in terms of the tests of story. Now

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Speaker 1: you don't have any baluncari issues. So in until he

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Speaker 1: spends it, I mean, he seems to have an unlimited

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Speaker 1: ability to spend the money that he gets in so

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Speaker 1: how for how long will there be no balancy to

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Speaker 1: issues even with capital deployment in Berwin as well as

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Speaker 1: in Austin. I mean this really shures him up for

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Speaker 1: the next few years in terms of those capital issues. Now, investors,

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Speaker 1: you and is what's the growth opportunity going forward? And

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Speaker 1: right now if you look at ev especially in China,

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Speaker 1: you know, test has really seen an inflection of them

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Speaker 1: and profitable. That speaks of the S and P five

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Speaker 1: hundred inclusion, which is different from a year ago. Hey, Dan,

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Speaker 1: give us a censor. Let's take a step back here.

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Speaker 1: It just feels like we're starting to hear more and

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Speaker 1: more out of the traditional automakers in terms of maybe

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Speaker 1: some product introductions, some ev products in particular, How do

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Speaker 1: you think the traditional auto manufacturers over the next five

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Speaker 1: years are going to move on e V And how

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Speaker 1: do you think that to what extent is at a

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Speaker 1: risk to Tesla? Well, I think if you look at

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Speaker 1: GM spending twenty billion the next five years on EVY,

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Speaker 1: and I think it speaks to what's happening, is this

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Speaker 1: is really gonna be Today it's three overall automotive sales worldwide.

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Speaker 1: I think that goes at ten percent by two thou

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Speaker 1: I think traditional automakers of you and this, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have tax incentives. Of course, you have it in Europe.

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Speaker 1: I think with the Biden administration doubling down tax incentives

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Speaker 1: in the US, and ultimately from a multiple perspective, remember,

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Speaker 1: Tesla doesn't get treated as an automotive company. It's a

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Speaker 1: technology disruptive technology means and I think automotives and the boards.

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Speaker 1: They also recognize that. More and more success on evy,

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Speaker 1: you can start to see names like GM Forward get

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Speaker 1: rerated on that success. A couple of questions done you

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Speaker 1: don't mind. One is you've ben underperformer on Nicolas. You

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Speaker 1: obviously feel like that's a whole different type of story.

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Speaker 1: And the similarities that we see between the Nicolas story

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Speaker 1: and the Tesla story really maybe we shouldn't be seeing them.

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Speaker 1: So I want to ask you about that. I also

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Speaker 1: want to ask you if elon Muska is spread too

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Speaker 1: thin and white people have stopped complaining about that. They

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Speaker 1: used to complain about that when it came to Dr

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Speaker 1: Dorsey all the time. Yeah. In terms of Nicol, I mean,

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Speaker 1: our cautious stands has been just some of the company's

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Speaker 1: specific issues going on, you know, especially with GM and

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Speaker 1: others I do think that they will start to clear

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Speaker 1: over the next three to six months. But that's why

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Speaker 1: we've been more cautious on Nicola, even though they still

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Speaker 1: have great prototype and opportunity. I think, look, it's not

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Speaker 1: a campaign every company with the same brush. And I

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Speaker 1: think in terms of e V, you know, going to

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Speaker 1: to the Musk question, I mean, he's kind of had

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Speaker 1: that red tape. He's been able to do Superman like things,

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Speaker 1: not just with Tessa, but of course with SpaceX, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's not as much of a concern for

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Speaker 1: investors just given what you've seen, more maturity, more profitability.

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Speaker 1: They've scaled across US the globe and must continue to

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Speaker 1: kind of navigate, as well as a strong bene that

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Speaker 1: they've started to develop over ex three months. So you know,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting down as we think about the test of story,

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Speaker 1: it's always just what's the next catalyst? What's the next catalyst?

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Speaker 1: You know, um, is it to take a look at

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Speaker 1: the test of story? Is that new products? Is that

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Speaker 1: manufacturing numbers? What investors really focusing on in terms of

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Speaker 1: metrics these days? Yeah, metrics right now, leaves are focused

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Speaker 1: on China. I'm not think China could be worth a

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Speaker 1: hundred hours per share. That's the focus looking at what

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Speaker 1: we see. We've always seen strength in terms of this

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Speaker 1: quarter going into next year. You know, can they get

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Speaker 1: the two hundred fifty thousand units potentially in China from

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Speaker 1: one fifty first year out, That's gonna be the key.

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Speaker 1: And then it's the drum roll to the cyber truck.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's gonna be the next, you know, really

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Speaker 1: potential game changer model. And you're seeing that pickup truck market.

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Speaker 1: It's not just test, it's for GM now obviously Rivian.

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Speaker 1: You know, that's a whole another opportunity in terms of

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Speaker 1: easy and it speaks to what you're seeing in these

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Speaker 1: stocks not just in the US, but even in China

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Speaker 1: and Neo and others. Just you know, really in the

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Speaker 1: early days of this market breaking out, what's your your

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Speaker 1: favorite company or your most ferry company. I suppose in

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Speaker 1: your coverage universe you cover a lot of companies that

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Speaker 1: are relevant to the current period, including docu sign and

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Speaker 1: companies like that. Yeah, with doctor Sign has been our

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Speaker 1: favorite work from home name along with z Scale. I

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Speaker 1: think you've got to play cloud and cyber securities core themes,

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Speaker 1: and there are favorite large cap continues to be Apple,

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Speaker 1: I think going into a supercycle, demand looks very strong

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Speaker 1: going into next year, and that continues to be our

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Speaker 1: favorite large company. And along with Microsoft to play the cloud,

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Speaker 1: and those are the keys cloud, cyber security and these

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Speaker 1: large tech names. We still think tex Stox a year

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Speaker 1: from now or thirty percent higher. Dan Apples had a

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Speaker 1: bunch of news out today, some new products and headphones,

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Speaker 1: some chips. What's the takeaway from what you've heard from

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Speaker 1: Apple over the last twenty four hours. Yeah, it's just

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Speaker 1: further solidifying not just the supercycle in terms of iPhone,

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Speaker 1: but the broader products cycle that's happened across Max, across

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Speaker 1: air pods. I mean, we think air pods this year

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Speaker 1: ninety million units sold, that's up from sixty million a

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Speaker 1: year ago. That's gonna be five percent of South. So

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Speaker 1: when you're starting to seek not just on services, which

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Speaker 1: is a big part of the re rating, but Apple

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Speaker 1: right now is in the biggest product cycle, not just

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Speaker 1: an iPhone, but if you could cross the board billion,

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Speaker 1: it's history, and I think that speaks to why this

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Speaker 1: stock has a lot more fuel on the engine. You know,

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Speaker 1: right now we see hundred fifty price target. I think

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Speaker 1: potentially bull Case could start to get you towards two hundred. Dan.

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Speaker 1: Thanks as always, we like to just kind of go

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Speaker 1: across the board tech with you, and you're always able

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Speaker 1: to give us some great insights. Dan i'ves Managing director

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Speaker 1: Equity Research web Bush Securities giving his thoughts on Tesla,

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Speaker 1: Apple and some of the stay at home stocks. Dan

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Speaker 1: I was a big, big ball on technology. He's been

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Speaker 1: absolutely on top of these names, and he's been absolutely

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Speaker 1: right writing this technology ballmarket that we've seen really since

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Speaker 1: uh the end of the financial crisis isn't really come

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Speaker 1: into play really just over the last twelve months as well,

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Speaker 1: So we appreciate dance thoughts. Let's bring in Daniel Master,

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Speaker 1: who is chairman of coin Shares Group at one point

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Speaker 1: eight billion dollar platform and as you can imagine, how's

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Speaker 1: a little bit to do with cryptocurrency. So Danny, thank

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Speaker 1: you for joining. Very happy to have you chat with us.

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Speaker 1: I'm very interested in coin shares and how it inhabits

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Speaker 1: the ecosystem that is crypto and cryptocurrencies and platforms. Can

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Speaker 1: you explain a little bit about it to us? Yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: coin shares, we make it easy for institutions and other

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Speaker 1: investors to own bitcoin. Um. We see this demand reflected

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Speaker 1: in our a U M the figures which have been

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Speaker 1: rising as you just mentioned. UM. The second thing we've

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Speaker 1: do as we provide liquidity. We've done about eight billion

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Speaker 1: dollars in cryptocurrency trading volume this year, which is up

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Speaker 1: about four times on last. And we're helping to build

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Speaker 1: and shape the infrastructure of the cryptocurrency ecosystem with other

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Speaker 1: global banks like Namura creating products, investing in innovative companies,

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Speaker 1: and building this new financial system. So, Danny, give us

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Speaker 1: a sense of kind of what you're seeing just in

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Speaker 1: the marketplace as to the adoption of just cryptocurrencies in general.

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Speaker 1: We hear a lot about fintech, a lot about cryptocurrencies,

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Speaker 1: but give me some sense of the applications you're seeing

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Speaker 1: out there in the marketplace. Well, that's one of the

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Speaker 1: most fascinating aspects of my job day to day. I

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Speaker 1: think we've think back to in the last peak cycle

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Speaker 1: of crypto prices, one of the criticisms, which I think

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Speaker 1: was valid, was that not much of the infrastructure had

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Speaker 1: been built, not much of the software and new applications

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Speaker 1: had been developed. But now We're seeing some fantastic companies,

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Speaker 1: companies like unite Swap, companies like Compound Finance, d y

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Speaker 1: p X, Leverage and many other names who are delivering

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Speaker 1: essentially banking services. They're borrowing, lending, hypoblication, trading, custody and

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Speaker 1: derivatives all on the blockchain. So where do you fit

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Speaker 1: into that, Danny, I mean coin shares. You're not a

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Speaker 1: You're not a currency, right, You're a platform. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean we we we issue eight securities that list on

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Speaker 1: nasdaimexans dot com. This makes it easy to buy and

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Speaker 1: own cryptocountcy exposure through your normal bank of broker um.

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Speaker 1: That's a big part of our business. We are investors

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Speaker 1: in early stage equity for companies in the ecosystem that

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Speaker 1: are building exchanges, data companies, wallets, lock chains. We have

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Speaker 1: produced a gold back to Swiss gold back to stable

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Speaker 1: coin which is issued across Europe. And we're also put

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Speaker 1: forward a very interesting indexation strategy called the coin Shares

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Speaker 1: Gold and Cryptocurrency Index, which pairs gold and a basket

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Speaker 1: of cryptocurrency in a risk managed way for institutional investors.

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Speaker 1: So we do a number of things well, Daniel, just

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Speaker 1: on my blueber terminal. Here I kicked in xpt U

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Speaker 1: s D the bitcoin ticker and what a chart that is.

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Speaker 1: Give us your thoughts on bitcoin. The mood is electric.

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Speaker 1: At the momentum, we've seen a transformation due to COVID.

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Speaker 1: Bitcoin was created as a reaction to the twenty oh

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Speaker 1: a quantitative easy program. Obviously with a situation we've all

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Speaker 1: been facing in the last nine ten months, this quantitative

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Speaker 1: easing h end has only magnified probably three or four folds.

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Speaker 1: So at the moment the markets driven by the narrative

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Speaker 1: for inflation resistance investments, it's driven by digitization. Bitcoin is

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Speaker 1: a store of digital value which people want. And interestingly,

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Speaker 1: investors are becoming less spooked by the characteristic volatility of bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: which has been dropping over the last few years. And

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Speaker 1: while other investments we know the drama in the oil

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Speaker 1: market earlier this year, other investments are becoming more volatile,

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Speaker 1: so that volatility profile is becoming a bit more palatable. Danny,

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Speaker 1: is it still a land grab? So, I know, you know,

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Speaker 1: for the platforms in particular, it was a bit of

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Speaker 1: a land grab for a long time. Is it still

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Speaker 1: the case who is emerging the winner when it comes

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Speaker 1: to when it came to sort of taking the bets

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Speaker 1: on the infrastructure of it all. You say, you do

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Speaker 1: many things. You obviously placed bets in a lot of

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Speaker 1: different calces, and now that central links are starting to

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Speaker 1: talk about it, I imagine it's becoming a little bit

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Speaker 1: more mainstream. But where where are the places where people want? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a great question. Um, I'll even wind the clock

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Speaker 1: forward a little bit. I think we are contemplating a

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Speaker 1: new environment, maybe two to four years forward, where central

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Speaker 1: bank digital currencies are the norm, and there are huge

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Speaker 1: advantages for central banks for issuing such digital currencies. Um.

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Speaker 1: Now when we see that, we're going to be asking

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Speaker 1: the question who's going to perform those banking services in

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Speaker 1: the intermediate layer, the borrowing lending as I mentioned before,

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Speaker 1: And those are interesting companies that I think are winning

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Speaker 1: great mindshare and great market cap at the moment. But

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Speaker 1: perhaps the most interesting land grab opportunity is for the

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Speaker 1: end points for those digital wallets, these sort of Amazon

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Speaker 1: dot com a digital assets. So when your gold is digital,

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Speaker 1: your stocks are digital, your bonds of digital. Whereas though,

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Speaker 1: where are those digital assets going to be held? And

430
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:12,720
Speaker 1: it's that wallet infrastructure that is the most interesting land grabs.

431
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: So you've seen Facebook and Libra and Calibra trying to

432
00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: take take the advantage in that space. You've got the

433
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: big exchanges like coin based and Finance and maybe bitfin x,

434
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: who are also quite strong in the wallet infrastructure. You've

435
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:36,880
Speaker 1: got native blockchain infrastructure companies like blockchain dot Com one

436
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 1: of our partners, fantastic company, sixty million wallets already. And

437
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,920
Speaker 1: then you have newcomers like Samsung's who are putting hardware

438
00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:50,320
Speaker 1: security devices in phones that can then act like digital wallets.

439
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 1: So it could be a phone provider. And we've yet

440
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: to see what other companies like Amazon, like Google may

441
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: do in reaction to the moves that some of their

442
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 1: competitors are making. Hey Danny, just real quick twenty seconds.

443
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: Do you need the big big banks, the JP Morgans

444
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 1: in the world to come into this market? I think

445
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,440
Speaker 1: that this intermediate layer of banking services that are now

446
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: emerging on Shane. You know, these are big proof of

447
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: concept companies, but they're growing, you know, two billion dollar

448
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 1: status very quickly. Um. It seems to me that a

449
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,239
Speaker 1: lot of the traditional banks, the Morgan's Chases and so on,

450
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: are quite far behind everybody's got an initiative, but they

451
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: seem to be stalling and they seem to be quite

452
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: far behind the rest of the pack. Yeah, certainly it

453
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: seems to be the case. Danny Masters, thanks so much

454
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 1: for joining us year. We always appreciate getting your thoughts

455
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: on all things crypto. Danny Masters, chairman coin Shares a

456
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: group based in London, with some thoughts on the crypto market,

457
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 1: and uh, it's a fast growing market. But you know,

458
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: one of the questions is do you need the validation

459
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: of some of these large global banks to really kind

460
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 1: of propel that market forward or can they be driven

461
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: simply by the technologies. Well, as we all think about

462
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 1: how to best manage our day to day activities amid

463
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: the pandemic, one of the areas that's really taken a

464
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: hit has been mass transportation. People just don't feel comfortable

465
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: getting on subways and busses and so on. But a

466
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 1: new report from n YU suggest that they met that

467
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 1: may not be as big an issue as people may

468
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: be thinking. Professor Mitchell Ross, I'm sorry, Mitchell Moss, Director

469
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 1: of the Root and Center for Transportation Policy and Management,

470
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: also the Henry Hart Rice Professor of Urban Policy, and

471
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: Planning at n y U joins US Professor Moss, thanks

472
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: so much for joining us here. When I saw this report,

473
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: it really piqued my interest because as someone like most

474
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: New Yorkers, we arrived the subway multiple times every day,

475
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: and the assumption was that was just a breeding ground

476
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 1: for all types of viruses, including COVID. What did your

477
00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: research tell you? So the study we have done shows

478
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: that influenza debts, which is not the same as coronavirus,

479
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: over a ten year period, have no relationship to mass

480
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 1: transit ridership, and we believe since the spread of the

481
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 1: virus has some similarities. This is a very important study

482
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 1: because it confirms what has been reached in other areas

483
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: of science, which is that it's sustained social interaction, which

484
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: is the area of highest risk for the spread of

485
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 1: this coronavirus. So, when you say influenza deaths, what about

486
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: influenza hospitalizations or just contracting influenza? Were you able to

487
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: get data on that? Well, we relied on death because

488
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: there's one thing it's very high to do is to

489
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:38,639
Speaker 1: hide a body and the diagnosis. We didn't really go

490
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 1: for the kind of number of diagnosis of influenza, which

491
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 1: as you know, can be quite common, especially among older people,

492
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: but influenza death is a very specific category. I think

493
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: the key part which we want to highlight here is

494
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 1: that the subway in New York especially, but also in

495
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,240
Speaker 1: Hong Kong and in Paris and in certain cases soul

496
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,479
Speaker 1: in Tokyo has been manageable. In other words, people are

497
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: wearing masks in some places, they're cleaning the subway cars

498
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 1: multiple times. In New York, the air it's filtered more

499
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: often you know, in a subway car that it is

500
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 1: in most office buildings. So we believe, and it's very

501
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:17,480
Speaker 1: important here, that the subway, where most people don't talk

502
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 1: to each other, they don't look at each other, they

503
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: can't hear each other because the train wheels are so loud,

504
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 1: they're focusing on their phones or their iPads, actually produces

505
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: very atomistic behavior. People stick to themselves, and so the

506
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: actual subway ride is not the source we believe of

507
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 1: the virus compared to other settings. And how do we

508
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: know this, Well, look in at the state of New York.

509
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: Buffalo has an infection rate three times higher than the

510
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 1: city of New York. Buffalo is not a major subway city.

511
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,040
Speaker 1: They have a bus system. Los Angeles and southern California,

512
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: which is having a vast surge, as you know of cases,

513
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: is an automobile city. In fact, people cannot figure out

514
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 1: how l A could have so many cases, given how

515
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 1: low density some of the living is and how out

516
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: doors it is, and so the virus spreads when people

517
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: are together with each other for sustained periods of time,

518
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: especially indoors. The subway tends to be a managed ride,

519
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: tends to have very little interaction, and the air itself

520
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: there it's filtered so often that it tends to present

521
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: less of a risk than in many cases. I would

522
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: like going to the Oval Office. I mean, we have

523
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: a chart in the media and the number of people

524
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: who have been with the President who have contracted the virus.

525
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: We think the subway car is safer than in the

526
00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 1: Oval Office. Yeah, but I wouldn't have wanted to ride

527
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: in a subway car with the President at that time either. Well.

528
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: I think that what we've seen is that the initial

529
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: pandemic was so concentrated in New York. The people said

530
00:29:39,760 --> 00:29:42,800
Speaker 1: it must be due to mass transit, And now we

531
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: see if you look at a map of the US.

532
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: You know, you know, there are states in the Upper

533
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: Midwest where they wouldn't know a subway car from a

534
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 1: limousine because in fact, you know, they're really driving trucks

535
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: and the factors in South Dakota and North Dakota and

536
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 1: some of those states have had serious outbreaks from a

537
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: motorcycle rally. So what we would argue is that our

538
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 1: research shows that mass transit by itself is not really

539
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: tied to the spread of virus. Now, over time, we're

540
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 1: going to learn more about the coronavirus. But wait, professor,

541
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: can I just can I just clarify? Are you basing

542
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,280
Speaker 1: that on the fact that the people who died from

543
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: influenza across the country didn't increase in areas for the

544
00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 1: renomas transit? Is that? Is that? No? I think, well,

545
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: there's a great question. I appreciate. Remember this is a

546
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 1: study of collective death, so it's no one individual case.

547
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: But we haven't looked at where there were you know,

548
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 1: influenza deaths and where there were mass transit systems, and

549
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: this is over a hundred cities that there's no relationship

550
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: to between mass transit use and the death from influenza.

551
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: So we really can't talk about anyone individual. We can

552
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 1: say that the ridership of mass transit does not connect

553
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: in any form to the youth to the death by influenza, right,

554
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: because it's people's immune system and it's how they react,

555
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: and it's how influenza influences one person versus another person.

556
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be the same for COVID? Well, I think

557
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: this is a great question for which you know, our

558
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: knowledge of COVID is one year old. You know, last spring,

559
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 1: everybody though it with surfaces. Now we're finding out it's

560
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 1: much more air, so I think you know, and every

561
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 1: human being, I think it's your point out is affected

562
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,240
Speaker 1: by the COVID very differently. If they ask any of

563
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: the emergency room doctors, they will be the first to

564
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 1: tell you that patients experience the virus and their different

565
00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: parts of their systems. Sometimes it's breathing, sometimes it's hard,

566
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's very It affects people so differently that

567
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: I'm not sure we can make a judgment and stuff.

568
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 1: You know, how actually people are going to be affected

569
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: by any one particular a bout of the virus because

570
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: their own composition, remember their age, their underlying conditions affect

571
00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: how it affects them. So, professor, just the next thirty seconds, Um,

572
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 1: have you discussed this with the city and what's the

573
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 1: as mt A had any response to the study. Well,

574
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 1: the m t A has taken a very aggressive approach

575
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: to having masks being required, and the ridership shows wearing

576
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: the I think the mt is very familiar with the

577
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 1: study because they have actually been very aggressive not only

578
00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 1: enforcing the mass requirement but in sanitizing. That's why the

579
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 1: stations are closed at night and the cars are cleaned,

580
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: and so they're doing what they can do. Now. They've

581
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: had a lot of loss of death of some of

582
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: them people who work in the transit union, because they

583
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: have been in vulnerable situations where they're interacting with people.

584
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 1: But I think what's amazing is that the m t

585
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: A has recognized this is why they've aggressively spend a

586
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: lot of money and the continuity including stations and the

587
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: cars the mask requirement that has been the best example

588
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: of their success. The the amount of use of the

589
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 1: mask is greater than that on the sidewalks of New

590
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 1: York City. Yeah, it's fascinating. We have to thank you

591
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: for us or I hope you come back. I would

592
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: love to continue to chat with you as this progressive professor.

593
00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: Mitchell Mass, Director of the n y U Rooten Center

594
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 1: for Transportation and Policy Management. Thanks for listening to the

595
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews

596
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: at Apple, Old Podcasts, or whatever a podcast platform you prefer.

597
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: I'm Bonnie Quinn. I'm on Twitter at Bonnie Quinn, and

598
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: I'm Paul Sweeney. I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before

599
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: the podcast, you can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg

600
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: Radio