1 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. 2 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. So, Tracy, Bitcoin 3 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: has been surging again lately. Yeah, I think as we 4 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: record this, it's currently above eight thousand, right. Yeah, it's 5 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: been fluctuating a little bit, but obviously one of the 6 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: things that happens that every time Bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies 7 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: start to spike, interests follows soon thereafter. It's one of 8 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: these things where when it's down suddenly people go quiet 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: and stop talking about it and pretend they were never involved, 10 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 1: and then when it's surging, everyone's like, oh, yeah, I'm 11 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: I'm interested in that stuff at a very much a 12 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: great example of narrative following price. Yes, indeed, I actually 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: joked on Twitter earlier today that now we're going to 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: see all the people that scrubbed blockchain from their Twitter 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 1: bios and LinkedIn profiles, they're all going to start adding 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 1: it back in. But I think when it comes to 17 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: the bitcoin price, you know, I know a lot of 18 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,080 Speaker 1: people watch it sort of purely out of entertainment value. 19 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,679 Speaker 1: But we've talked before on the show about the importance 20 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: of the network effect and the idea that if you're 21 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: actually going to get people using bitcoin, you need to 22 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 1: generate a buzz, right, absolutely, so obviously the buzz is 23 00:01:24,160 --> 00:01:28,559 Speaker 1: picking up. Bitcoin itself has been around, uh for about 24 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: a decade now, basically exactly ten years more or less. 25 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: But what I think a lot of people don't know 26 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:37,800 Speaker 1: or they've never really thought about, is for for so long, 27 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: many years prior to bitcoin, decades really, people had been 28 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: trying to work on the problem of digital money and 29 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: somewhere or other, whether it's anonymous payments online or payments 30 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,600 Speaker 1: that didn't have some sort of centralized clearinghouse to facilitate them. 31 00:01:56,840 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: Bitcoin isn't just a new thing. It's kind of the uh, 32 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: the solution to a problem that people had been focused 33 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: on for a while. Right. So, I think the notion 34 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 1: or the exploration of digital currencies kind of started growing 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: in tandem with the Internet, right, and it was sort 36 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: of a solution to a problem that the Internet and um, 37 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: new technology suddenly threw up. Didn't you read a book 38 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: on this, by the way, weren't you really excited about something? Yeah, 39 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: there's a great book coming out this summer by Finn 40 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 1: Brunton all about this, But yeah, exactly right. I mean, obviously, 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: in the real world and the physical world, I can 42 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: pay you in cash and no third party no uh, 43 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, legal authority has to know about it. But 44 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 1: very early on people sort of intuitive that as our 45 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: economy became more digital, that that would be a problem 46 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,639 Speaker 1: that would need to be solved. So today I'm very 47 00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 1: excited because we are going to be talking to a 48 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: guest who was at the forefront of this search for 49 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: a solution to this album. Truly, I think everyone in 50 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 1: the space would agree. One of the godfathers of digital currency, 51 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: a true pioneer, an inventor of digital currency long before 52 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: bitcoin ever came around, who could tell us all about 53 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: this prehistory of cryptocurrency and where he sees the space now. 54 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: So that further Ado, I want to bring in David Chaum. 55 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: He is the CEO and founder of Elixir, but very 56 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: early on for decades. Like I said, one of the 57 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: godfathers of the space. Really appreciate you joining us. It's 58 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: so great to be here with you both. Let's start. David, 59 00:03:35,320 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: just tell us how did you when did you get 60 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: interested for the first time in solving this problem and 61 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 1: seeing that as the world got more digital there would 62 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: need to be away for transactions to be at least 63 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: in some sense anonymous. Well, actually eighty two I published 64 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: a paper about blind signatures, which was the e cash 65 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,000 Speaker 1: technology that I later deployed in in the mid nineties. 66 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: So e cash it was not a cryptocurrency as we 67 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: know it. Now, why don't you explain what was the cash? Well, actually, 68 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: the cash is slightly different and in some sense slightly 69 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: better than perhaps cryptocurrencies, in that current cryptocurrencies are generally 70 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: think of the more like digital checks. They move money 71 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 1: from one wallet I d one account, your account to 72 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 1: someone else's accounts, whereas with e cash, it was a 73 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:41,120 Speaker 1: the first digital bearer instrument. It was a number that 74 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: was worth money. And one of the additional features of 75 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: the cash was because it was a digital bearer instrument, 76 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: in the first such thing, it could have this special 77 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: blind signature property, which meant that when you withdrew one 78 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: of the is from your bank account, and you know 79 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: your bank account was reduced in value, and they gave 80 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: you this signature publicly digital signature, the cryptographic operation they 81 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:12,039 Speaker 1: performed on a number that you sent them, that that 82 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: signature was worth let's say one dollar, that came out 83 00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: of your account. Well, you were able to transform that 84 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:25,159 Speaker 1: signature into a different and unrelated form that was still 85 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 1: clearly signed worth one dollar, but absolutely uncorrelatable to the 86 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: number that you sent to your bank, So that meant 87 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: that you had the money. There was no way that 88 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:40,279 Speaker 1: they could stop you from spending it or even noo 89 00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:42,880 Speaker 1: where you would spend it or if you had spent it. 90 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: So this is an actual improvement over these check based 91 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 1: systems where much can be traced. So I have two 92 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: questions based on that. But one was e cash dependent 93 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: on the banking system? Could it own work if you 94 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: had a bank accountant? It was sort of deriving the 95 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:08,280 Speaker 1: number from that transaction, And be what was the problem exactly? 96 00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: We alluded to this in the intro, But what was 97 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: the problem that you were trying to solve with this invention. Well, 98 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: to answer the part A, we issued what we're called 99 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: cyber bucks. This is what today is called an air 100 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: drop in effect. So what I said was we're only 101 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: going to issue a million of these, and anyone who 102 00:06:30,000 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: wants to put up a digital shop, we will give 103 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: them a hundred. And there were like over a hundred 104 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: shops set up and if you go to my website, 105 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: you can still see their logos and click on them 106 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: and see kind of what their homepages looked like. In 107 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: many cases in those days, this was way before really 108 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 1: the web or an electronic commerce was very early days. 109 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: So I invented de cash more truth be told to 110 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 1: demonstrate that it was possible to do all the things 111 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:04,920 Speaker 1: that you need to do in the digital world as 112 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: a consumer while still maintaining your privacy yourself. Is it 113 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: like a today called digital sovereignty, keeping your own keys 114 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: so that you didn't have to rely on others to 115 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: safe you know, do not look at your personal data 116 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: or stored safely. Just before we move off the specifically, 117 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: I want to make sure people understand exactly how the 118 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: mechanism works. So the idea was, I mean, we don't 119 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: have to get too technical, but the idea was essentially, 120 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: if this had spread and if this had become well adopted, 121 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: the idea was one could take money out of their 122 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: bank and have it would be on a card, or 123 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,679 Speaker 1: they'd have some sort of card that would represent this. 124 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 1: This was a purely digital process, so your computer would 125 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,680 Speaker 1: create a random number at itself, which no one else 126 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: could predict. Or imagine right, and then it would we 127 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: say blinded. It would hide it in a second in 128 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: a key, and then it would send that hidden random number, 129 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: which is like this would be the serial number of 130 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: your digital one dollar bank note. Later it would hide 131 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,640 Speaker 1: the digital serial number by encrypting it with another random key, 132 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: send that hidden serial number in the bank would use 133 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: the secret key that only it has, which it gives 134 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: it the exclusive ability to validate these digital bank notes. 135 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: It would then return that signed hidden number to you. 136 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: And then because of the magic of commutativity, and like 137 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,680 Speaker 1: you know, three times four is equal to four times three, 138 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: you could divide out the hiding layer and now you 139 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: would have the signature, the actual bank's validating signature on 140 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:43,240 Speaker 1: your seal number, without any residue from the hiding And 141 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: then the recipient of this money, so you get the 142 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: money out of your bank. The recipient then has something 143 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: that they can deposit in their bank account. Absolutely. And 144 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: but then there was the old little double spending problems, 145 00:08:56,320 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: So there's the bank would that have to send it 146 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 1: into the bank to make sure that you hadn't spent 147 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: it elsewhere. But there was a more sophisticated version that 148 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 1: we developed that was enjoyed work with money or and 149 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: names fiat that if you did double spend it, you 150 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: would in effect be digitally signing a confession to this effect, 151 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: whereas if you spend each one only once, you would 152 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,160 Speaker 1: never reveal enough information to allow your identity to be linked. 153 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: And that's because when you spent those those special types 154 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,120 Speaker 1: of coins, you would have to answer a random query. 155 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: And if you'd answer two questions, it's kind of like 156 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: when the police interrogate you. You know, if you answer 157 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: two questions, they don't fit together and then they realize, oh, 158 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 1: it's you. So I'm guessing you know we're talking about um, 159 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,199 Speaker 1: I guess the early nineties. When when you did this? 160 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: The early eighties, right, Well, I wrote a technical paper 161 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: on e cash in two, which was the same year 162 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 1: that I or canize the International Association for Cryptologic Research 163 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: and held the first really scientifically sponsored conference on cryptography 164 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 1: to counter the National Security agency directors threatening to scientific 165 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: organizations draconian legal measures if they were to even have 166 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: sessions little own conferences on cryptography, so I organized a 167 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 1: conference without using any electronic communication that created in effect 168 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: in international scientific association. And then when the people all 169 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: appeared there. I said, okay, now you're all members by 170 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 1: virtue of having paid your registration fee, and we'll have 171 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: our next events in Italy in the spring. And here's 172 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: the you know. And so I did all that without 173 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,960 Speaker 1: ever using the phone. So the guys in the front 174 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 1: row were all from the n s A. And they 175 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 1: all turned green. So you're developing this in the eighties, 176 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: and then in the nineties, I guess, well, the idea 177 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: was published in the eighties, and then in the nineties 178 00:10:56,920 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: the Dutch government because I was based in Amsterdam at 179 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 1: the Center for Mathematic Computer Science and whole leading group 180 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: of crhotography of search there, and the Dutch government came 181 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: to us said we want to do a road toll 182 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: pricing like sort of like I think it's often called 183 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: easy paths these days on the highway speed on without 184 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: lane constraints, and uh, we don't want the drivers to 185 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: have to reveal their identity or they're there, who they 186 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: are to these to these radio frequency transceivers that they 187 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: passed under. And can you do this? And I said yes, 188 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: I've just happen to have the answerd blind signatures this decash. 189 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: So they said, great proof to us that it can work. 190 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: I recruited like a dozen college students, said you guys, 191 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: build this in ten days. I'll send you and your 192 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: girlfriends to Disney World for for two weeks. And they 193 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: turned their like student housing into a lab or twenty 194 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: four hours a day and they did it. We started 195 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 1: Dutch government and they were like, wow, that's cool. One 196 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: in one yard of road travel at two a like 197 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: at a hundred kilometers an hour could make this privacy 198 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: protected payment. And so I just took the contract they 199 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: gave us to the bank and said, hey, we got 200 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: this contract from the government to make this and they said, oh, great, 201 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: you can borrow against that, no problem. And that was 202 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: digit cash. So what I was going to ask is, 203 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 1: you know it's now and clearly we're not using digit cash. 204 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: We're arguably not even really using a lot of other 205 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: cryptocurrencies for for payments. So so what happened, like what 206 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: went wrong? Why wasn't there more adoption? The real question 207 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: that I was fighting for it at that point was 208 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 1: the web over the like what I used to call 209 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,920 Speaker 1: the five channel guys that the set top boxes. I 210 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: don't know if you recall, but it wasn't a done deal. 211 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: That we'd all be using the Internet and the web right. 212 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: It was more like you have this closed box and 213 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: it would deliver video but also like the web interface, 214 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: but it would be a closed system and that would 215 00:12:57,679 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: you know you have an account with it, and that 216 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: there would be no real need for payments. And it 217 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 1: all seemed quite plausible and there were a lot of 218 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: big actors supporting that, and it was kind of a 219 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: uh an insurgency that was pushing for an open web. 220 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: And I think that the Scientific American article that I 221 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: published in the mid eighties would show that you could 222 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: do all these interactions online protecting your own privacy and 223 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: your own information, using your own keys, was instrumental in 224 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 1: getting people to realize that the web was could work 225 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: for everything that would be needed in future, and was 226 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 1: a much better option than this kind of closed set 227 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: up box option. Do you think the the closed set 228 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: top box people are kind of winning again, because I 229 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 1: think that's a big people look at the web and 230 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: it doesn't feel as open, and it feels dominated by 231 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 1: a handful of companies, and people don't use much uh 232 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 1: technologies that could obfuscate their privacy. Is this is this 233 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: is part of the reason that we see this revival 234 00:13:56,600 --> 00:14:00,760 Speaker 1: of interest in cryptocurrencies in blockchain as a response to 235 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: the fact that the open web is losing. Well, that's 236 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: a that's a really interesting way to look at it, 237 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: and I think the open web has one because my 238 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: definition of winning is deployment wins. So we have now 239 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: used this approach to get a very powerful and very 240 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 1: easy to use computer in the hands of everyone half 241 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: the people on the planet, and that that's a huge win. 242 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: And what that has done to answer come back to 243 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: your your point is the transparency and the east access 244 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: to information like what your show provides it. It is 245 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: revealing that the web isn't kind of what it could 246 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: be and what end that all these strange things are 247 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 1: happening behind the scenes, and people are have become very 248 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: upset about it. I thought's the sense of the public 249 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,800 Speaker 1: that I get. They really are starting to recognize that 250 00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: it's not just you know, strong end end encryption. It's 251 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 1: needed is the protection of the metadata, the whole social graph, 252 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 1: who you talk to and when, where you are, how 253 00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: you interact with things, all that inciliary information which you 254 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: know they've been distracted from being concerned about now is 255 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 1: something the public is aware of and so I think 256 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: we're it's it's all tied up to the just the 257 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 1: perfect point where the Maslowian level is about to do 258 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: a phase change. So now we have smartphones that are 259 00:15:27,520 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: so handy and cheap and work great and can do everything, 260 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: and now people are saying, Okay, it works. Now what 261 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: I what I really need is privacy. Something that's striking 262 00:15:57,320 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: to me listening to this is you two, Like very 263 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 1: few people were thinking about any of these problems, even 264 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: just this idea that there would be something called an Internet, 265 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: or that there were different versions of how it could 266 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: have gone, the more closed version, and anticipating that privacy, 267 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: which is incredibly salient topic in twenty and nineteen, would 268 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: ever be have to be a thing that we have 269 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: to worry about. Setting aside digital money for a second, 270 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: just tell us about, like, how this became something that 271 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: you anticipated in the group of people who were thinking 272 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: about this. How did it tell us about that scene 273 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,280 Speaker 1: and anticipating all this stuff. I'm not sure there was 274 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: much of a scene. It was me and I wrote 275 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 1: about this very extensively, at so much so that my 276 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 1: work was invited to the best journals and republished in 277 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: a bunch of languages, and then I laid out two scenarios. 278 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: Basically is what's played out right, that that privacy technology 279 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: could protect people, allow them digital sovereignty, if you will, 280 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: in tony sterm alogy, or it could go the other way, 281 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 1: and that is that all this information could be used 282 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 1: to control society under the pretense of, you know, preventing 283 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: criminal use of of systems, and that this would lead 284 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: to a kind of battle between these two approaches. The 285 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:25,200 Speaker 1: winner would determine whether we'd have like a free, democratic 286 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: society or we'd have a kind of totalitarian society that's 287 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: orchestrated by let's say, AI helping evil actors control everything. 288 00:17:37,920 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 1: And I think that that choice is now, finally, after 289 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: all these years, become quite a parent to people. And 290 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 1: also it's much more imminent than people realize because all 291 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: the AI and and and and message data and all 292 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: that stuff is going way ahead behind the scenes. And 293 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,719 Speaker 1: I think people are starting to get a sense of that, 294 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: and they're saying, hey, wait a minute, this is this 295 00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: is a pretty dangerous situation. Democracy is a key aspect 296 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,840 Speaker 1: of all this too, And not to be left out 297 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: and done a lot of work, I'm voting and I 298 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 1: think that all this digital privacy is a critical and 299 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: necessary ingredient for democracy. And and that's kind of to me, 300 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 1: that's kind of the meta issue that the public gets 301 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: to decide what kind of world they want, and the 302 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 1: only real way to do that is if they have, uh, 303 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: the ability to see whatever they want, to communicate with 304 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,359 Speaker 1: people and to pay for be paid for information or 305 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: supplying if its subscribed to your your show, whatever, if 306 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: they had to pay for it without anyone being able 307 00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: to notice that or stop them. So, David, I have, um, 308 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: what might be a stupid question, but when it when 309 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: it comes to that metadata issue, when it comes to 310 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: the problems of sovereignty, it seems like we expend collectively 311 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: so much energy, or at least the cryptographic community expends 312 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,919 Speaker 1: so much energy trying to solve this problem, you know, 313 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: creating anonymous payments and similar things. Would it not just 314 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 1: be easier for the government or the regulators to limit, um, 315 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: the use corporation's use of information of metadata or is 316 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: the issue that you don't trust the government at all 317 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: to do that in a fair and um unbiased way. 318 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 1: I came back, so to speak, into this space truth 319 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 1: be told. When the snow and revelations were made public, 320 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:45,600 Speaker 1: and I went to my cryptography conference that I had founded, 321 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 1: so that we have one every year, and there's two 322 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: others that were sponsored by organization publics and journalist one. 323 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: It was a big deal. Now we have like a 324 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:56,560 Speaker 1: half a dozen workshops around the world and there so 325 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: the seven hundred league cryptographers in the world are there, 326 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: and I know a lot of them, all the ones anyways, 327 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,040 Speaker 1: and just but I realized we didn't even establish that's 328 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,199 Speaker 1: your background, right, Yes, I'm generally thought of as like 329 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: I published a bunch of articles on cryptography and for 330 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 1: a long time, more than anyone else in the world, 331 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: even five years after I stopped publishing. That's what the 332 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: publisher told me. I don't really know, but I'm not 333 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: academic really anymore. But I was at at this conference 334 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 1: and no one seemed very concerned about the Stone revelations. 335 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: But to me, it was really shocking because I never 336 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: really believed or was certain that the government was spying 337 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: on everything. I remained open to that. Yeah, would I 338 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: like to believe there was a benevolent information security aspect 339 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: to government spots. When it was revealed that they were 340 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: really doing the worst possible things we could imagine, and 341 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:56,640 Speaker 1: and the people in the field were hardly shocked by 342 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: it because they make a living kind of you know, 343 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: being a part of the what do you call it, 344 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: like the crypto industrial complex, you know, education that I 345 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: just had to find a way to speed up all 346 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,119 Speaker 1: my old work, which I did, so I've made a 347 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: thousand times faster we don't want have done in thirty 348 00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:15,000 Speaker 1: five years. The mixing, and that was the missing ingredient 349 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: in the e cap so that to hide where you're 350 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: sending the money from. Let's talk about the sort of 351 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: closer prehistory to bitcoin. So we as we established Bitcoin 352 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: came out in two thousand nine, I think, or into 353 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: two thousand eight, people had been working very towards this 354 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: goal for a while. The cash was one of them. 355 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: There was a famous mailing list called the cipher Punk 356 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: mailing list. You I believe you participated in that mailing list, right. 357 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: The cipher punks all maintained that that my work inspired, 358 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: so your name is is mentioned all over those archives. 359 00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 1: It was the technology that I developed which enabled their position. 360 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: So at that point, how much were you talking to 361 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: the people working on this problem, thinking about the solutions 362 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,000 Speaker 1: that you would come up with talk about the opportunity 363 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: is like, how much were you sort of uh in 364 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: communication with the people who ultimately we're getting closer to 365 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: solving bitcoin. Basically, I filed my dissertation at Berkeley into 366 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: the library and two without releasing the copyright to dissertation abstracts. 367 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 1: So the three copies in the library and the archive 368 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: there were the only copies that were let's say, publicly 369 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: available in principle. Now it turns out that there were 370 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: some times that they were checked out, and it's very 371 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: interesting to go look at those little slips of paper 372 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: and see the dates and so on. But that dissertation 373 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,720 Speaker 1: laid out in code how to build a blockchain, and 374 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: and recently there's a referee article that appeared in the 375 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: Tripoli Security and Privacy is a pretty good journal, established 376 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: that that dissertation included all the aspects of modern blockchain's 377 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,720 Speaker 1: permission I'm in un permission sort of corporate in the 378 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,479 Speaker 1: open ones except for the proof of work, which was 379 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: presented like ten years later at the cryptocomis that I mentioned, 380 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: and I was there in the audience thinking that's where 381 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: they want to use this to protect against spam. Maybe 382 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:15,879 Speaker 1: you could use it for other things, but I'm not 383 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: going to think about it because they both were working 384 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: at IBM and it's probably bad that completely and they 385 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: already thought about it, so I didn't think, oh, maybe 386 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: we could use this to solve, uh, you, improve electronic money. 387 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: So in October two thousand eight, the you know, the 388 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: famous Bitcoin Satoshi Knockamoto white paper comes out. What did 389 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: you think when you write it or when did it 390 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 1: first come to your attention and what was your reaction? 391 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,960 Speaker 1: Did you go like, oh, this sounds a lot like 392 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: my dissertation. Well, it's kind of a blend of of 393 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: my dissertation and the kinds of electronic money systems that 394 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: we worked on back in the day. But honestly, what 395 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: I thought it was, Gee, this is a potentially very 396 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: powerful mechanism. Could possibly be used by government for various purposes. 397 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: It might have bad implications for voting that's not done 398 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,239 Speaker 1: in a polling place in terms of vote buying. It 399 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: might be able to be used to pay people to 400 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,280 Speaker 1: do things that are an athetical to democracy, or maybe 401 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,919 Speaker 1: that are supportive of democracy in emerging countries. It's like 402 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: it's a very powerful extra uh state kind of mechanism, 403 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: and that was to me the dramatic thing about it. 404 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: You know, it's one thing to say that two cryptographers 405 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: can do send messages back and forth all day long, 406 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,360 Speaker 1: but government can just like turn off their phones or 407 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 1: you know, see that they're doing that. You can't be anonymous. 408 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,959 Speaker 1: You're not really protected unless you're in a large group. 409 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: And what what Bitcoin did was it said, Hey, we're 410 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 1: going to have so many people participating in this from 411 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,679 Speaker 1: so many different jurisdictions, that this is going to be 412 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: outside of the control of government. And I think to me, 413 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 1: that's the key thing, that's the real distinguishing factor. The 414 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: the technologies arguably a bit crude and primitive, but it 415 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: apparently gets a job done. And you're definitely not Setoshi, right, 416 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: I don't into that. Okay, he tried, Joe. The state 417 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 1: of things now, obviously Bitcoin is massively bigger than almost 418 00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: anyone could have guessed. We have thousands of other different coins, 419 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: blockchain projects, spinoff ideas. What are you working on and 420 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: what do you see as the opportunities today? Well, there's 421 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 1: a tremendous amount going on in the blockchain space. Sort 422 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: of a lot of it's kind of a little bit 423 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: behind the scenes, and this is amazing how many big 424 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: actors are kind of working on blockchain projects. So it's 425 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: it's it's extraordinarily exciting. And there are sort of scenarios 426 00:25:56,800 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: where these kind of mechanisms really helped maintain our kinds 427 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 1: of civilization if the government really starts to weaken more. 428 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: And I think a lot of people are worried about 429 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 1: that to some extent because of the transparency of the web. 430 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: But the real killer app, so we also used to 431 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: call it that in the modern world, is clearly messaging 432 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: integrated with payments, with popular applications in the same name space. 433 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: This is what we chat has in China, and it's 434 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 1: essentially what Facebook is turning into if you believe what 435 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: they say that all the new users are basically just 436 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: chat users, and so it's we chat with blockchain inside. 437 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: So that means we don't keep the metadata. In fact, 438 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 1: we have a way to destroy it using a mixing 439 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: technology which I also published in the eighties, uh and 440 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: found this way to speed up after the revelations. So 441 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: it's a payment system based once again on digital bear 442 00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 1: instruments denominated digital coins, and a solution to the who's 443 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 1: talking to whom the mixing the uh metadata problem integrated, 444 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,159 Speaker 1: and we have a way to allow the depths to 445 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 1: run securely off chain so that it doesn't depend on 446 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,719 Speaker 1: the chain like the current major chain. So it's I 447 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: think the killer app that will displace current dominant you know, 448 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 1: just like so many times we've seen it seems like 449 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,960 Speaker 1: the major social network systems are undisplaceable and the next 450 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,120 Speaker 1: thing you know, everyone's moving over to the next new 451 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: thing because because they get better privacy. That happened with 452 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: like Telegram, right, So this is metadata protection a whole 453 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 1: other level beyond what people are trying to recognize is 454 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,199 Speaker 1: the real issue, not the end and encryption that like 455 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: Telegram provides. So I think we'll see people move over 456 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: to our platform and they'll then their social graph, who 457 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,399 Speaker 1: they communicate with, and when they'll have integrated payments. As 458 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 1: I mentioned for this is really essential for democracy, and 459 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,439 Speaker 1: we've got it all working on a blockcheam. We've got 460 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:12,439 Speaker 1: tremendous support from the community. We've got almost nine nodes 461 00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: that have volunteered to operate our system without making any 462 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: money off it. So an anonymous payment system with an 463 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 1: anonymous messaging platform attached, so that the entire sort of 464 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:27,919 Speaker 1: transaction becomes anonymous. Well, I would to me it's not 465 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 1: so much the anonymity because you are able to establish 466 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: who you are, and you do have the benefit of 467 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: knowing who you're communicating with and so on, and you 468 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 1: can always reveal this. This blockchain based you know, chat 469 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: today doesn't really give you the ability to prove that 470 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: you send a certain message, so it can be used 471 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: as a replacement for email, which is an important thing 472 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: for developing country. So and it's also censorship resistant, you know, 473 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: it's hard to kind of stop people from be able 474 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,200 Speaker 1: to because they can access it through any one of 475 00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: our uh node. So it's a it's a pseudonymous self 476 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: sovereign identity based messaging integrated with payments. But then it's 477 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: also an open, two sided business model platform for debts. Okay, 478 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: with that caveat This is something I often wonder about cryptocurrencies. 479 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: But again, it feels like developers spend a lot of 480 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: time working on the underlying technology of crypto, trying to 481 00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: make the blockchain or whatever more efficient. How much does 482 00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: technology actually matter when it comes to cryptocurrencies? Are people 483 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: basing their use case or they're buying and selling of 484 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: you know, something like bitcoin on the underlying technology or 485 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: is it just first mover or advantage. How much does 486 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: it matter? I believe that being able to do untraceable 487 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: messaging to solve the metadata problem at the speed needed 488 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: for consumer transactions, which is like ten second latency from 489 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 1: initiation and sending a message, receiving it or banking payment 490 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: and having to be final, is they key enabler for 491 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: taking the blockchain out of its current kind of huddles 492 00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: investment kind of mode and making it a mass consumer product. 493 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: And I think that that phase change is what the 494 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: technology breakthrough that I've established, like a thousand x speed 495 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: up in this in the in the messaging privacy allows, 496 00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: So in that sense, I think technology plays a very 497 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: key role there. And I think that there's also a 498 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: second and part of the question is you know about 499 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: good money. It's all about good money. And if if 500 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: I think that a bitcoin or an etherorum or whatever 501 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: popular crypto you think of could be displaced by one 502 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:51,160 Speaker 1: that is arguably stronger, and even though there's a lot 503 00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: of momentum, brand and and value and so on, because 504 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: it's all about good money. And I think one of 505 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: the things that our elicks are. Technology has going for 506 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: it in that regard is that it is based on 507 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: quantum resistant cryptography so called random functions. No one else is, 508 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,880 Speaker 1: and that makes it something that nation states can trust. 509 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: And so that's a kind of cryptography. It's the only 510 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,280 Speaker 1: kind that they used to protect their national security information 511 00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: and commanding control systems and so on, and so it's 512 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: it's actually very important for developing countries or even countries 513 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: like Japan. We are worried that you know, China is 514 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: coming in and dominating with with Alipai, that they if 515 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: it's a kind of digital imperialism. What you want is 516 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: a level playing field between countries so that the small 517 00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: countries can also introduce innovative products and safely allow sophisticated 518 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: financial services to come in from abroad to create economic growth. 519 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: We have to wrap up. But one less GUESSI do 520 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: you ever worry about all this technology in the hands 521 00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 1: of people. I mean, obviously you look at something like 522 00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: the Snowden revelations or various other things, even financial collapse, 523 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 1: and that gives rise to a lot of well deserved 524 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 1: skepticism about centralized authorities, whether they be governments or banks. 525 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 1: But do you ever worry about the sort of complete 526 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 1: flip side and what happens when institutions that have essentially 527 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: provided some sort of order to society for centuries or 528 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,280 Speaker 1: decades suddenly get deeply undercut and their ability to maintain 529 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: control of communication and transactions. Yes, I think that it's 530 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: obviously a vulnerability to stability if these major institutions were 531 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: to be really disrupted, and I think they recognize that, 532 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: and they are acting behind the scenes. I'm getting on 533 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: a plane a couple of days to go visit one 534 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: of the major central banks of the world. Invited me there. 535 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: The people, you know, and I've been involved with these 536 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:52,959 Speaker 1: sort of folks for quite a while. They're all working 537 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,920 Speaker 1: desperately behind the scenes to try to find a way 538 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: that they can issue a digital currency that's uh really 539 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 1: you know, worthy of of their backing and and so 540 00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: I don't think that they'll just as as this technology 541 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:12,360 Speaker 1: goes mainstream, the regulatory you know, people recognize that it's 542 00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: really important for privacy and security and democracy, the regulatory 543 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 1: impediments will will fall away and be you know, for good. 544 00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: And I think it's just like all financial services innovation, 545 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: you know, when the eventually when it becomes mainstream. It's 546 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: all happily accepted, and I think then the these mainstream 547 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: organizations and major actors will continue to be a significant 548 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:41,960 Speaker 1: players and this will create a stable, gradual transition to 549 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: a much better world. David Chum, thank you so much 550 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: for coming out. Fascinating conversation. Thank you. It was really 551 00:33:49,760 --> 00:34:02,719 Speaker 1: a blaste here. Thanks David. That was great, Tracy, I 552 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: really loved that conversation. Yeah, that was really fascinating. And 553 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: I think, Um, you hit upon something in one of 554 00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 1: your questions to David, which was just how early he 555 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: was when it comes to talking about a lot of 556 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: the problems that we are talking about today's such as 557 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,960 Speaker 1: privacy concerns, such as the idea that you know, our 558 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: private data is going to be used by nefarious corporations 559 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: or governments. He was just so early to all of that. 560 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: It's it's kind of unreal like it was sort of 561 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: at a time when a lot of that was in 562 00:34:32,640 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: the realms of science fiction. Yeah, something that I thought 563 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: of that I hadn't really thought of before is like, obviously, 564 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,040 Speaker 1: right now, among mainstream pundits and the tech press and 565 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: uh analysts, privacy is a huge deal and people are 566 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: really concerned about how much data companies like Facebook and 567 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 1: Twitter and all these and Google and all these entities 568 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: have on us. And yet in the conversation, and again 569 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: I think it's sort of like mainstream, mainstream tech journalism, 570 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,840 Speaker 1: there's still quite a bit of dismissiveness, I would say, 571 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: about the sort of crypto world, of the blockchain world. 572 00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: They think a lot of it is a snake oil 573 00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,959 Speaker 1: or just weirdos and cranks who live in Silicon Valley 574 00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 1: or off the grid somewhere. But when you figure or 575 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 1: when you sort of think of the big picture of that, 576 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: actually it's a lot of the crypto blockchain people that 577 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:26,959 Speaker 1: have been warning about privacy concerns long before most tech 578 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,400 Speaker 1: journalists had even it occurred to them. It seems like 579 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:34,120 Speaker 1: it should be more a part of that conversation. Well, 580 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: we've talked about that before, the notion that there are 581 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: so many sort of value systems attached to cryptocurrencies, but 582 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: there's also I don't know, just based on the conversation 583 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: we had with David, it feels like there's something deeper here, 584 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: you know, he mentioned digital imperialism. It feels like the 585 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 1: world right now is sort of having to choose between 586 00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:59,440 Speaker 1: which technological and which government system it wants. And I 587 00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: say that someone who's you know, technically in China at 588 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: the moment, and it's sort of watching this unfold in 589 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: various ways, but it does feel like we're at that 590 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: moment of time where people are going to have to 591 00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 1: start making these decisions right and there. It almost doesn't 592 00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 1: feel like there's a big distinction between a government system 593 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 1: and a Facebook coin, like whatever it is, it's some 594 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: gigantic entity upon which the individual has no control one 595 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: minor thing. Uh, and maybe it's a subject of a 596 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 1: future conversation. Uh. David pointing out that the first time 597 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:35,320 Speaker 1: he came across proof of work, which is integral to UH, bitcoin, 598 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,960 Speaker 1: was it was presented as a spam fighting technology. I'm 599 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: not sure how many people know that bitcoin kind of 600 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,560 Speaker 1: came out of work to to fight against spam. So 601 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: it might be worth unpacking that one at a later day. Yeah, 602 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,919 Speaker 1: Bitcoin of fighting the good fight against junk email and 603 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: privacy concerns. That's that's something, all right. This has been 604 00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 1: another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. 605 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: You can follow me on Twitter at Tracy Alloway, and 606 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal. You could follow me on Twitter at 607 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: the Stalwart, and you could follow David on Twitter at 608 00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 1: Chalm dot com, and be sure to follow our producers 609 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,399 Speaker 1: on Twitter tofur Foreheads. He's at four Heast, as well 610 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,480 Speaker 1: as Laura Carlson at Laura M. Carlson and be sure 611 00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,759 Speaker 1: to follow the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesco Levy at 612 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: Francesca Today. Thanks for listening.