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Speaker 1: Okay, so what what is the actual address to this website? Okay,

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Speaker 1: so there's v A E R S dot H H

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Speaker 1: S dot gov. Let me uh black at you. My

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Speaker 1: producer Tofer and I are checking out a website known

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Speaker 1: as THEIRS. That acronym stands for Vaccine Adverse Reporting System.

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Speaker 1: It's a federal database where anyone can report potential side

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Speaker 1: effects they've experienced after getting vaccinated. It's basically intended to

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Speaker 1: be an early warning system for possible problems with vaccines.

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Speaker 1: The data is totally public. The first thing, it says

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Speaker 1: that there's been forty four thousand, eight hundred and fifty

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Speaker 1: six adverse events related to the COVID nineteen vaccine. That

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Speaker 1: doesn't sound so bad for millions of time, millions of

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Speaker 1: people being vaccinated every day. In very urs you can

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Speaker 1: read all of the details of injuries people say happened

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Speaker 1: after getting vaccinated. But it's important to know that not

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Speaker 1: every health issue that comes up after getting a vaccine

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Speaker 1: is necessarily caused by a vaccine. Bronco spasm with coughing

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Speaker 1: tongue itching. I know, I don't know if I've ever

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Speaker 1: had an ischy tongue. It's not just injuries. You can

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Speaker 1: look up how many deaths were there there were. Okay,

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Speaker 1: now let me back up and say that before you

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Speaker 1: get to any of this, there is an extremely prominent

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Speaker 1: and detailed disclaimer that you have to click through. The

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Speaker 1: disclaimer is very clear that just because an injury is

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Speaker 1: reported here does not mean a vaccine caused that injury.

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Speaker 1: You actually have to click that you read the disclaimer

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Speaker 1: in order to view the data. The fact is anyone

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Speaker 1: can report a claim to this website and it'll show up.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't mean it's true. It's just a claim that

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Speaker 1: will help the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and

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Speaker 1: the Food and Drug Administration catch any troubling side effects

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Speaker 1: that are occurring because of vaccines. And this is just

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Speaker 1: one of many ways the federal government monitors these things.

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Speaker 1: This is just good responsible science. When you have a

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Speaker 1: mass vaccination campaign, you want to keep an eye on

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Speaker 1: it in case any truly troubling patterns emerge. These systems

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Speaker 1: have helped flag problems before the CDC recommended a roadavirus

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Speaker 1: vaccine be pulled from market. That was after fifteen cases

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Speaker 1: of vowel obstruction among infants who received the vaccine had

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Speaker 1: been reported in THEIRS. These kinds of monitoring effort are

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Speaker 1: why the CDC decided to pause the Johnson and Johnson

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Speaker 1: vaccine roll out in April after six people who got

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Speaker 1: it experienced blood clots. This is the system working, not

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Speaker 1: a problem with the system. But correlation is not causation.

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Speaker 1: Every report in vrors is not indicative of a catastrophic

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Speaker 1: vaccine side effect. In the anti vax world, virors has

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Speaker 1: long occupied this sort of contradictory territory. It's both something

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Speaker 1: untrustworthy and proof that vaccines are not as safe as

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Speaker 1: the government says. So they have argued for for years

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Speaker 1: that the data can't be trusted. UM, that the CDC

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Speaker 1: and the FDA, UM if there's an event that's credible

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Speaker 1: that's reported to it, that they don't act on it intentionally.

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Speaker 1: Um And then it's all part of a government conspiracy

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Speaker 1: to hide the actual adverse events due to due to immunization.

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Speaker 1: This is Joe Smiser. He's the head of the Public

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Speaker 1: Good Projects, a public health nonprofit that has been analyzing

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Speaker 1: vaccine misinformation over the past year. Joe has noticed anti

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Speaker 1: vaccine groups changing their script a bit here and now

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Speaker 1: they're saying that in addition to THEIRS not being trusted,

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Speaker 1: also you should report to THEIRS and any any adverse event,

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Speaker 1: make sure you report to THEIRS. Robert F. Kennedy Juniors

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Speaker 1: organization the Children's Health Defense encourages people to report to errors.

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Speaker 1: It also frequently sends out newsletters with subject lines trumpeting

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Speaker 1: the numbers of injuries or deaths reported in the database

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Speaker 1: after COVID vaccines. All of the context of the disclaimers

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Speaker 1: in the database, though, are conveniently missing. The way Joe

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Speaker 1: explains it, groups like Kennedy's have basic weaponized bears, and

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Speaker 1: they'll look for any adverse event and then they'll turn

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Speaker 1: that into media. So there'll be memes and videos, and

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Speaker 1: there are very popular videos of people just going through

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Speaker 1: every single instance of someone reporting an adverse event to bears,

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Speaker 1: and they'll read it out loud, and some of these

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Speaker 1: videos are two and a half hours long of the

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Speaker 1: person just reading out loud all of the things reported

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Speaker 1: to bears. And then at the same time, the same

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Speaker 1: groups and the same individuals will say, Okay, well that

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Speaker 1: can't be trusted, so go to this new system. So

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Speaker 1: basically they get believers to report alleged injuries. Then they

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Speaker 1: make content out of those stats. It is a self

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Speaker 1: perpetuating panic machine. The anti vaccine movement doesn't so much

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Speaker 1: manufacture reality as manipulated bears. Is one of the latest

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Speaker 1: lines of attack from anti vaccine groups for causing doubt

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Speaker 1: round vaccines. Somehow various data is untrustworthy and also proof

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Speaker 1: of everything anti vaccine groups are saying. Despite this giant

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Speaker 1: cognitive disconnect, this message has spread far and wide. Mike

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Speaker 1: Joe says, there are videos of people just doing the

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Speaker 1: same thing we did, checking out the data and reading

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Speaker 1: it aloud. That is ungentleman. I'm wanted to see d

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Speaker 1: sees web page right, and I decided that I needed

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Speaker 1: to see the results for the vaccines and their simptoms

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Speaker 1: and the dead that this particular video was viewed more

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Speaker 1: than twenty one thousand times on Facebook. When they get

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Speaker 1: to the alleged deaths, the speaker in the video just

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Speaker 1: starts scrolling through the hundreds of cases. Dare marry a

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Speaker 1: dead people? Dead people? Oh, nobody not talked about the

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Speaker 1: people are dead from the vaccine, much less COVID. It's

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Speaker 1: the video doesn't mention any other context. All the average

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Speaker 1: person would see is an endless stream of alleged deaths

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Speaker 1: related to COVID vaccines. And by the way, Facebook has

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Speaker 1: put a disclaimer on the top of this video that

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Speaker 1: says it's missing context, but you can still see it

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Speaker 1: and share it. Not ability to distort reality is one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why anti vaccine extremists have had a

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Speaker 1: good year. Today, these groups are more powerful than ever.

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Speaker 1: Misinformation is running rampant. Only about a third of the

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Speaker 1: US population is fully vaccinated, and it's unclear exactly when

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Speaker 1: we will get to widespread immunity from the virus. Doubt reigns,

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Speaker 1: but there is hope. In the final episode of this series,

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Speaker 1: we're going to look forward. The majority of Americans are

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Speaker 1: now faced with the choice of whether to get vaccinated

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Speaker 1: against COVID nineteen. We're going to examine how the medical

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Speaker 1: establishment and public health has failed in inspiring vaccine confidence

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Speaker 1: and what can be done to fix it. One of

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Speaker 1: the answers to that question can be found in the

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Speaker 1: least likely of places. I'm Bloomberg News health reporter Kristin V.

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Speaker 1: Brown from the Pregnosis podcast. This is Doubt. Joe Smizer

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Speaker 1: of the Public Good Projects says anti vaccine groups are

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Speaker 1: in an especially strong position. I think is going to

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Speaker 1: be the year of the anti vaccor. Like they're getting

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Speaker 1: more money than ever before, they're more organized never before.

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Speaker 1: They actually have elected representatives who believe in their viewpoints.

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Speaker 1: They're more global than ever before, and so the infrastructure

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Speaker 1: is so much more solid than it than it ever

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Speaker 1: has been. This has just added so much fuel onto

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Speaker 1: their their fire, and now we've got signal fires all

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Speaker 1: over the all over the globe. It's it's what they've

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Speaker 1: been hoping for. Um, It's it's a global mass immunization effort.

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Speaker 1: This is a big problem. As we've shown in this series,

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Speaker 1: anti vaccine groups have been refining how to spread out

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Speaker 1: for decades. Andrew Wakefield gave vaccine skepticism of a new

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Speaker 1: or of science. Jenny McCarthy, I mean it part of

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Speaker 1: popular culture, and newer waves of anti vaccine activists like

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Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Have used social media to turn

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Speaker 1: this messaging into viral content. The groundwork for an explosion

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Speaker 1: of anti vaccine sentiment had been laid long before the

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Speaker 1: global pandemic. This worries Joe. I don't think we're going

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Speaker 1: to go back. That's that's my concern is I think,

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Speaker 1: like I mentioned, that infrastructure is just so well built now.

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Speaker 1: Going into there had already been massive protests against vaccine mandates.

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Speaker 1: Estates tried to tighten childhood ammunization laws. So it's easy

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Speaker 1: to see why it didn't take very long for talk

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Speaker 1: about COVID vaccines to turn to talk about vaccine skepticism,

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Speaker 1: like way before any vaccine was anywhere near ready, And

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Speaker 1: we saw that all through the spring. If you follow

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Speaker 1: news reporting on on covid um, there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of reporting started pretty much right away what if people

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Speaker 1: won't take a vaccine for COVID when we have one?

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Speaker 1: And it was mostly using the misinformation frame as a

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Speaker 1: kind of explanatory framework for why people um didn't want

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Speaker 1: to vaccinate. And then the misinformation frame is pretty pervasive.

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Speaker 1: Bernice Housman studies medical controversies at Penn State College of Medicine.

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Speaker 1: Bernice breaks it down like this, there are two different

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Speaker 1: theories that people generally use for why people are skeptical

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Speaker 1: of vaccines. The first one is that misinformation is to blame.

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Speaker 1: All those viral Facebook videos are causing people to suddenly

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Speaker 1: turn on vaccines. As we have talked about a lot

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Speaker 1: in this series, The explanation is just overly simplistic. If

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Speaker 1: you have no other reason to distrust vaccines, one video

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Speaker 1: isn't necessarily going to change your mind about them. And

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Speaker 1: thinking about misinformation as the main driver of vaccine skepticism,

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Speaker 1: it's problematic because you're never going to fix the problem

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Speaker 1: if you're not address saying the real cause. And Bernie says,

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Speaker 1: that's where the second theory comes into play. But another

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Speaker 1: frame started to emerge over the summer and is now

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Speaker 1: supplanting the misinformation frame, and I think it's a really

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Speaker 1: really positive development. People started talking about confidence and trust.

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Speaker 1: Bernice says three main things helped spur this shift. One

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Speaker 1: is that UM, the data from COVID demonstrates, you know,

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Speaker 1: really severe existing health disparities along the lines of race

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Speaker 1: and ethnicity in this country and also associate economic status.

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Speaker 1: Now everybody has known that this these exist, but the

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Speaker 1: COVID pandemic has actually really brought that into public view

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Speaker 1: and made people understand that um vulnerability to COVID is

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Speaker 1: really based on these kinds of social justice issues. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't news that there are deep health disparities in America,

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Speaker 1: but the pandemic made those disparities very public. It was

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Speaker 1: just harder to ignore when so many more people of

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Speaker 1: color were dying from the virus. Secondly, Bernie says, all

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Speaker 1: the protests of last summer after the murder of George

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Speaker 1: Floyd helped to publicize concerns about trust. So they also

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Speaker 1: brought out the issue of social justice and especially concerns

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Speaker 1: that black communities have about trust and authority. And the

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Speaker 1: Trump administrations handling of vaccine development also brought trust into

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Speaker 1: the conversation. Vaccine dissenters have been saying all along that

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Speaker 1: there's a problem of corruption between the government pharmaceutical companies

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Speaker 1: um UM, and these federal agencies. So in the summer,

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Speaker 1: ordinary people saw that that could actually happen. Remember all

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Speaker 1: those news stories about the White House meddling with the

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Speaker 1: f d A and the CDC. Suddenly everyone was talking

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Speaker 1: about trust and scenes. So suddenly all of that has led,

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Speaker 1: I believe, to this big shift in public health where

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Speaker 1: now we see the people talking about vaccine confidence. How

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Speaker 1: do you build vaccine confidence if we're going to get

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Speaker 1: more people on board with vaccination. This shift in thinking

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Speaker 1: is crucial. Now when you think about it, those two

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Speaker 1: frames misinformation and confidence are really different. The misinformation frame

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Speaker 1: identifies the individual who believes the misinformation as the problem

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Speaker 1: who needs to be educated. The confidence frame says, people

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Speaker 1: lack confidence in vaccine programs and we need to demonstrate

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Speaker 1: that we We need to earn their trust so that

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Speaker 1: they have confidence in these programs. So it shifts the

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Speaker 1: burden to public health agencies, the government, public health workers

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Speaker 1: themselves medical practitioners to understand the reasons for the lack

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Speaker 1: of confidence and think about ways to rebuild trust. The

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Speaker 1: truth is, our public health officials haven't always done a

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Speaker 1: great job of communicating with us about vaccine safety. This

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Speaker 1: is a big factor and why so many people are

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Speaker 1: skeptical of vaccines right now. Take THEIRS for instance, most

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Speaker 1: people who have heard of THEIRS probably learned about it

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Speaker 1: from an anti vaccine group because there just isn't otherwise

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Speaker 1: enthusiasm for talking about problems with vaccines. This makes it

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Speaker 1: seem plausible that the government is trying to hide this data,

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Speaker 1: even though it's totally public and out there for anyone

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Speaker 1: to look at. Anti vaccine groups are just exacerbating existing

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Speaker 1: weaknesses and how we talk about vaccines, and really, when

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Speaker 1: there's a lack of formal information. We will always see

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Speaker 1: the rise of informal information because people want information, and

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Speaker 1: we saw that early in the pandemic with death dumentaries

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Speaker 1: like Plandemic that's a so called documentary filled with misinformation

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Speaker 1: that became very popular at the start of the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: which filled that gap when there wasn't any official information

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Speaker 1: coming out from government agencies about the pandemic and its

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Speaker 1: levels of contagion and how to contain it. When we

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Speaker 1: had gaps in information, we've seen those spaces filled with

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Speaker 1: other kinds of misinformation. This is Jennifer Reich, a sociologist

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Speaker 1: University of Colorado, Denver who studies vaccine hesitant people. She

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Speaker 1: says public health is not doing a great job of

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Speaker 1: explaining how they make sure COVID vaccines are safe, and

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Speaker 1: so I was surprised to learn how many systems monitor

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Speaker 1: vaccine safety by doing things like looking at large health

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Speaker 1: maintenance organizations and looking for upticks and emergency room visits

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Speaker 1: within the first few days after a vaccination, and then

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Speaker 1: looking for patterns that are statistically important to and go

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Speaker 1: back and look at the vaccines, and that has been

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Speaker 1: successful in identifying very rare adverse reactions to vaccines like

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Speaker 1: the vaccine against rotavirus. So there is this real time

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Speaker 1: kind of monitoring of both safety and efficacy that happens

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Speaker 1: that nobody talks about and that has remained largely invisible

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Speaker 1: prior to COVID, and I think during COVID. Imagine if

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Speaker 1: the CDC had been proactive about informing people about THEIRS,

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Speaker 1: then put ads on YouTube explaining safety standards around vaccines

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Speaker 1: before you watch your little nos X video, that wouldn't

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Speaker 1: just help combat misinformation, but also help gather more data

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Speaker 1: to monitor vaccine safety. Jennifer says, most people want good information.

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Speaker 1: It just hasn't been as readily offered to the public.

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Speaker 1: But the majority of people right now who are saying

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Speaker 1: I want to wait and see are asking for better information.

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Speaker 1: They are asking to have a conversation, and they want

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Speaker 1: to know what they can do. UM I'm surprised in

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Speaker 1: my research to hear how many people are still wiping

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Speaker 1: down their groceries and surfaces but not worrying about the air.

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Speaker 1: It's we're really far into that to have people not

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Speaker 1: fully understand how to the best assign their energies towards

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Speaker 1: the best strategies for limiting infection that should that's a

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Speaker 1: lack of clarity that has gone on too long and

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Speaker 1: needs to be addressed, I think directly. But we could

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Speaker 1: go even further to help people make the right decision

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Speaker 1: and give them more than just good information. For example,

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Speaker 1: if people are worried they might be out for a

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Speaker 1: day or two after getting the shop, which is totally possible,

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Speaker 1: we can make sure people have paid leave to make

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Speaker 1: the choice to get vaccinated easier. And while access to

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Speaker 1: information is important, it's not the sole driver of decision making,

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Speaker 1: and so what's also important is to think about how

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Speaker 1: does this fit into people's priorities, How does it fit

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Speaker 1: into their work life, how does it fit into their resources,

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Speaker 1: how does it fit into their community and their values? Right,

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Speaker 1: how do we think about this more holistically and then

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Speaker 1: figure out are their spaces where people are saying they

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Speaker 1: need something different. We need to give people the information

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Speaker 1: and the resources to make the right choice. Right now,

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Speaker 1: we're all living little bubbles. We interact with fewer people

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Speaker 1: and do it more cautiously. We're literally distancing from each other,

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Speaker 1: and that means we're all living in echo chambers with

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Speaker 1: less exposure than ever to new points of view. That's

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Speaker 1: exacerbating all of this too. When people make decisions about

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Speaker 1: vaccines or anything, really, we all look to those around

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Speaker 1: us who who share our lifestyle, who seems similar to us,

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Speaker 1: who understand where we're coming from. And it's why churches

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Speaker 1: have become such an important rule um in the conversation.

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Speaker 1: It's why people look to their community networks. It's why

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Speaker 1: there's evidence that barbershops and beauticians have become really important

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Speaker 1: sources of health information. People talk to the people that

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Speaker 1: they trust. The challenge right now during COVID is that

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Speaker 1: we've really limited the number of spaces in which people

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Speaker 1: can have comm stations of people they don't already know.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to have close, intimate conversations during a time

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Speaker 1: when social distancing is recommended and people are scared of

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Speaker 1: a highly infectious disease. But there is one place in

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Speaker 1: particular where people have been having those conversations and it's

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Speaker 1: been helping to re establish trust with the vaccine. Let's

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Speaker 1: take a trip to West Virginia. West Virginia isn't the

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Speaker 1: state you'd expect to be a vaccine success story. The

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Speaker 1: state is extremely rural and registered Republicans now outnumbered Democrats

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Speaker 1: These are two groups that we know are among the

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Speaker 1: most skeptical of vaccines. It's mountainous terrain and spread out

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Speaker 1: population also create logistical challenges for delivering vaccines. Many of

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Speaker 1: its residents are also poor, with health conditions that make

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Speaker 1: them especially at risk for severe cases of COVID. A

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Speaker 1: survey by West Virginia University shortly before vaccines began rolling

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Speaker 1: out found that about half the population expressed some level

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Speaker 1: of vaccine hesitation. But despite all of these obstacles, West

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Speaker 1: Virginia has become a model for other states when it

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Speaker 1: comes to vaccination efforts. By mid February, it had already

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Speaker 1: used up more than a percent of the vaccines it

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Speaker 1: had been allotted, the first state to do so. And

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Speaker 1: the reason West Virginia is so successful in vaccinating its

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Speaker 1: population has to do with people like Drew Massey. I

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Speaker 1: have mentioned first your Hometown Family Pharmacy. Drew is the

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Speaker 1: clinical director for Fruit Pharmacies. It's one of West Virginia's

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Speaker 1: biggest pharmacy chains, but it doesn't feel like it. Massey says,

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Speaker 1: their locations feel like they're part of their local communities.

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Speaker 1: For example, not that long ago Drew noticed someone else

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Speaker 1: side the store whose car needed to jump. We had

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Speaker 1: somebody in the parking lot. They were using their blinkers

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Speaker 1: and their battery went dead. Totally nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the shot, nothing to do with pharmacy. Went and got

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Speaker 1: the jumper cables, got my car and went over and

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Speaker 1: jumped the guy. And I was laughing because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's not going to think about that me

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Speaker 1: necessarily when he talks about his his um COVID shot,

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Speaker 1: but he will remember the guy that came out here

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Speaker 1: in the parking lot and jumped his car for him,

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Speaker 1: wearing wearing his pharmacy smock. Drew told me about the

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Speaker 1: fruit store in Nitro, that's a town of seven thousand

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Speaker 1: people where he's based. He says, people will happily wait

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Speaker 1: hours for a prescription, just chatting with their neighbors. Literally,

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Speaker 1: you can tell the people it would be three hours.

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Speaker 1: They would get a root beer out of the cooler,

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Speaker 1: they would sit down in one of the chairs. They

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Speaker 1: used to have rocking chairs out front of the pharmacy,

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Speaker 1: and they would stay there for two or three hours

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Speaker 1: and they wouldn't care. Pretty much, everything I heard from

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Speaker 1: Drew seemed to exemplify what I've heard about the best

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Speaker 1: ways to address hesitancy. He gives people good information, but

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Speaker 1: while listening to their concerns about vaccines. Instead of dismissing them,

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Speaker 1: he addresses those specific concerns and all of that information

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Speaker 1: is coming from someone in the community that the people

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Speaker 1: Drew is talking with trust. I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: times in the healthcare field, I think a lot of

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Speaker 1: us get into the thing that we're providing information and

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Speaker 1: it's either cold and stagnant, or it seems like it's

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Speaker 1: coming from I'm up here and you're down here, and

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Speaker 1: it's not really a conversation. It's more like I'm talking

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Speaker 1: down to you. And I don't think that people key

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Speaker 1: in on that. Nobody wants to be talked down to.

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Speaker 1: West Virginia had some things going for it when it

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Speaker 1: came to the vaccine rollout. It's got a small population

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Speaker 1: about the size of Phoenix, Arizona, and as everyone you

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Speaker 1: will ever talk to from West Virginia will tell you,

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Speaker 1: it's a very community oriented place. Um when people say

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Speaker 1: you have a tight knit community and everyone knows everyone

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Speaker 1: in West Virginia, it's it's almost true. This is i'n

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Speaker 1: I'm John Iron is a physician as well as the

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Speaker 1: top health officer in the state. She is West Virginia

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Speaker 1: born and raised. It's such a different feeling when you

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Speaker 1: walk down the street people say hi to you and smile.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a different vibe. You go through

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Speaker 1: d C you smile and say hi, people look at

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Speaker 1: you like you're weird. But here if you don't say hi,

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Speaker 1: it's almost rude. At the start of the vaccine rollout,

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Speaker 1: Iron says, West Virginia made a decision that would prove key.

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Speaker 1: Every other state signed onto a federal program partnering with

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Speaker 1: CBS and Walgreens to vaccinate nursing homes, West Virginia didn't.

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Speaker 1: They went with the local guys like Fruth. But we

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Speaker 1: don't have a wall Greens and CVS on on every corner.

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Speaker 1: And so we felt like in West Virginia, since these

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Speaker 1: long term care facilities and a fruit pharmacy or a

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Speaker 1: locally owned pharmacy was our coming into a long term

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Speaker 1: care facility, they knew the patients, um the records were

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Speaker 1: already there. There was that trust built in with them.

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Speaker 1: We could have this accomplished at a faster rate. Rather

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Speaker 1: than getting into the nitty gritty with the federal pharmacy.

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Speaker 1: This was important for a few reasons. First off, it

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Speaker 1: was just a better way to get the vaccine to

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Speaker 1: the many rural pockets of the state. And like I says,

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Speaker 1: there was trust and logistics in place because these pharmacies,

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Speaker 1: in many cases already visited facilities to take care of

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Speaker 1: other medical needs or do COVID testing. The pharmacists giving

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Speaker 1: out the shots were part of the community. One locally

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Speaker 1: owned pharmacist, they weren't able to go in UM for

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Speaker 1: that second round. They had a personal family emergency, so

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Speaker 1: we offered to send in a backup team to do that.

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Speaker 1: He said, no, UM, just give me one day to

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Speaker 1: take care of this family business emergency. And he wanted

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Speaker 1: to go into that UM long from care facility because

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Speaker 1: him and his team they knew the patients. That's West

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Speaker 1: Virginia for you. It is not just a job for them,

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Speaker 1: It is family to them. They know these patients, they

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Speaker 1: want to do what they know them by their first name.

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Speaker 1: Even Fine says those relationships were key not just in

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Speaker 1: getting the roll out to go smoothly, but also in

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Speaker 1: making people comfortable opting into vaccination. Getting it into local pharmacies.

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Speaker 1: You know, and we have community partners with churches, places

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Speaker 1: where you can go and ask all the questions you

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Speaker 1: need and get proper answers. Makes a big deal for

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Speaker 1: people who are vaccine deliberating vaccine and different right now,

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Speaker 1: people who don't trust the vaccine process, because they're going

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Speaker 1: to trust asking those questions to you know, those people

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Speaker 1: that they are most comfortable asking, you know, basic questions

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Speaker 1: that either they're embarrassed to ask, they're not sure about

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Speaker 1: because they hear people like me talking all the time.

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Speaker 1: They don't know me. Though, Binds messaging pretty much mirrored

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Speaker 1: what Drew had told me. She says it's important to

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Speaker 1: take people's concerns seriously and to not force them to

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Speaker 1: make a decision. She says she has a close family

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Speaker 1: member who believes a lot of the conspiracies about vaccines,

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Speaker 1: and she gets where people who believe that stuff are

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Speaker 1: coming from. But I think West Virginia, because of their

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Speaker 1: community partnerships, the trust that people have with their friends

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Speaker 1: and family who have taken it, that's going to bode

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Speaker 1: more well than with someone even like me telling you

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Speaker 1: to take the vaccine. And it's true that almost everyone

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Speaker 1: knows each other somehow through some way, and I think

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Speaker 1: the more people that take it, the more people were

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Speaker 1: going to have uptake it. Actually. Chris Martin is a

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Speaker 1: professor at West Virginia University School of Public Health. He

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Speaker 1: says all of the stuff happening at the community level

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Speaker 1: in West Virginia was aided by a collector of statewide identity.

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Speaker 1: For example, the state chose Courses Boss, the head of

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Speaker 1: the university's Health Science Center, to be its coronavirus are.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knows West Virginia University in West Virginia. If you

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Speaker 1: drive here, it will take you about one minute to

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Speaker 1: find somebody wearing the symbol of our university on a hat,

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Speaker 1: on a T shirt. It's an enormous source of pride

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Speaker 1: and trust. Chris also says the Universities College of Media

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Speaker 1: did a focus group to help the state understand what

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Speaker 1: kinds of concerns people had, and those focus groups clearly

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Speaker 1: identified not surprisingly, but critically important for us to appreciate

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Speaker 1: that a lot of West Virginians were worried about infringement

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Speaker 1: on personal liberties and the freedom to choose. Well, we

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Speaker 1: can address that. This was something both Drew and I'm

433
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: emphasized in our conversations. You can't try and force someone

434
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 1: to get back eccinated, especially perhaps in West Virginia. Chris

435
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: actually wrote an op ed that was published in a

436
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: few West Virginia publications that address this concern. In it,

437
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: he does this really clever thing. He totally flips the script.

438
00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: He argues that not only is getting vaccinated a choice,

439
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,640
Speaker 1: it's an empowering choice. It's a decision you can make

440
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: to help keep your friends and family safe, to help

441
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: end the pandemic. This is a tool that you have

442
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: should you choose, and it's totally voluntary. But should you

443
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: choose to do this, you are playing an important role

444
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: in getting us back to normal life. This all goes

445
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: back to something I've heard over and over in reporting

446
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 1: this series. Meet people where they are, address their concerns.

447
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 1: Do not just shove facts in people's face and hope

448
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: they make the right choice. So you first, you've got

449
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 1: to listen. And the second opponent is who is going

450
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: to be trusted is going to vary by community. Polls

451
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: frequently find that people are more likely to trust their

452
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: own healthcare providers, like doctors or pharmacists. And as a

453
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: public health community, if we understand a lot of those

454
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: specifics and understand the menu of common vaccine hesitancy or

455
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: the basis of vaccine hesitancy, and so that we can

456
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 1: respond in very specific ways to those specific concerns. From

457
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 1: a person of trust, I think we can sway large

458
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: numbers of people. That doesn't mean we can't have mass

459
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: vaccination sites like the Javitson or New York City. That

460
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: approach is fine for someone like me that totally trust vaccines.

461
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: I would let anyone stick a vaccine needle on me

462
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 1: at this point. But for the hesitant messaging coming from

463
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: your church or vaccinations coming from your chatty neighborhood pharmacist,

464
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: that goes a long way. You have to have the

465
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 1: flexibility to address the realities of your community. I don't

466
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: want to represent what West Virginia has done, as clearly

467
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: it's not a template that you migrate somewhere else and

468
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: apply without change. No matter where in the world you are,

469
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,120
Speaker 1: it always comes back to starting from a place of empathy.

470
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: There's a very poor correlation between scientific measures and how

471
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: people fear, get worried, get upset about a specific issue.

472
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: This explains, for example, why when you're swimming at the

473
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 1: beach and you heard that there was a shark attack

474
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: in Australia the week before. In spite of all the

475
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 1: evidence and your rational brain as you swim in the ocean,

476
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: you're going to be thinking about a shark attack. Um

477
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: and and it's not based on data. So the correlation

478
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: between scientific measures and perceptions of risk what people get

479
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: upset about, worried about, fearful of, or mistrust is very poor.

480
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 1: From that, I think flows and understanding that we have

481
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,960
Speaker 1: to approach vaccine hesitancy with sensitivity as experts. Chris talks

482
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 1: about vaccination in a way I hadn't heard before. He

483
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 1: says he thinks a big part of why people feel

484
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: so weird about it is that it's intimate. No, that

485
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: might sound like a strange word, but I think that

486
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: is the best word for it. Think about it. I

487
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: am going to roll up my sleeve and somebody is

488
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: going to inject a substance that you know, we can

489
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 1: have a long conversation about. But that's a really complicated

490
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: substance that you're injecting into me. That intimate act ultimately

491
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: requires trust. There's only so far you can go with

492
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: the data. At the end of the day, I've got

493
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: to say, this person has my best interests in mind,

494
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: they want to do what's right for me. I'm going

495
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: to trust them, and I'm going to allow this to happen.

496
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: I want to jump in here and say that in

497
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: the series, I've included conversations with a lot of experts

498
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: like Chris that preach empathy and understanding of people with

499
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: concerns about vaccines. But this is still pretty novel thinking

500
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: in the world of public health. I commonly hear the

501
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 1: the answer to this is just give them the data.

502
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: He thinks that a lot of the work that needs

503
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: to be done is really on the side of public health,

504
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: teaching physicians and nurses and public health experts how to

505
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: talk to people. For example, he says, one issue is

506
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 1: that there isn't always full transparency when it comes to vaccines.

507
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: Part of the problem we have is a public health

508
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: community is we want to be transparent, but we want

509
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 1: to be transparent about only the positive things, and we

510
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: struggle when it comes to those negative things. There isn't

511
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: always robust conversation about things like side effects. One example

512
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 1: that I use when I speak to primary care providers

513
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: is I go through statements and I say, tell me

514
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: this if this is a true or a false state.

515
00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: And the statement that I use is the US federal

516
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:07,959
Speaker 1: government currently financially compensates people for alleged adverse events from

517
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,319
Speaker 1: routine vaccinations. When I say that statement to primary care providers,

518
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: most of them answer that this is false, that this

519
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: is uh misinformation about vaccines. That's a true statement, that

520
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: that program does exist. He's talking about the National Vaccine

521
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: Injury Compensation Program, which we talked about in episode two.

522
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 1: The gist here is that we're so scared people will

523
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,320
Speaker 1: get the wrong idea if we talk about any potential

524
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 1: downsides to vaccines, that even doctors don't know this program exists.

525
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: We have the best of intentions, but we fear that

526
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: if people learn those things, they won't do what we

527
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: want them to do, which is clearly vaccination. But the

528
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,399
Speaker 1: problem is, of course, in our age, especially with all

529
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: the tools that we have, people will find things out.

530
00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,960
Speaker 1: For example, when people discover the vaccine Injury Compensation program,

531
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: they often wind up learning about it from anti vaccine

532
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: groups like Various Data. They take this information out of

533
00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:13,320
Speaker 1: context and cite it as evidence of all the ways

534
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: of vaccines are unsafe. The fact that these things aren't

535
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 1: openly talked about makes the messages those groups are selling

536
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: more believable. It has confused people and undermine their confidence

537
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: in what should be the trusted source of information, which

538
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: is the public health community. Really not talking about the

539
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: less pleasant side of vaccines more openly. It's just another

540
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:43,800
Speaker 1: form of dismissiveness, of talking down to people. We often

541
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: treat people with vaccine concerns as anti science or uninformed.

542
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: Chris says that's wrong too. A lot of people who

543
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 1: are vaccine hesitant might be misinformed, but they also have

544
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 1: often done a lot more research into vaccines than most people.

545
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: We cannot equate anti vaccine with anti science. I mean,

546
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 1: if you think about it, the scientific communities approach to

547
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: vaccine hesitancy has actually been kind of unscientific. Studies of

548
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: vaccine hesitancy show that more facts aren't likely to be

549
00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:23,320
Speaker 1: the thing that persuades people to trust vaccines, and yet

550
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: that is the mainstream approach to getting people to trust vaccines.

551
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: When you go back, you will see that vaccine hesitancy

552
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: has been present ever since we've had vaccines, and you

553
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 1: can go back to the eight hundreds in fact and

554
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: see that back then people will worried about vaccines. What's

555
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: most interesting about this is that while vaccines have changed

556
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,320
Speaker 1: since the first vaccines were developed in the eighteenth century,

557
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: the concerns really haven't. We have always been weird and

558
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: irrational about vaccines, and we probably always will be. There's

559
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 1: just something about them. Maybe it's that we give them

560
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: to healthy people, or that there's the genetic material of

561
00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: a virus in them. Maybe there's just kind of an

562
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: ick factor. But you don't see people for going colonoscopies

563
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: because they're worried the doctor might plant a chip in

564
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: them during the procedure, which by the way, is way

565
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: more possible than somehow getting a chip into a vaccine.

566
00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: There is something in human nature that large numbers of

567
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,839
Speaker 1: people are going to be excessively worried about vaccines. That's

568
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: just human nature. It's always been with us, and it

569
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 1: will always be with us. A certain number of us

570
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,799
Speaker 1: may always fear vaccines. But what has slowly started to

571
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: change over the past year is more people in positions

572
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 1: of influence are starting to think the way Chris does.

573
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: There is a lot of cause for optimism here in

574
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: places like West Virginia and in minority communities We've seen

575
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,880
Speaker 1: evidence of strategies that seem to work, and as more

576
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 1: Americans get vaccinated, they influenced their friends and family and

577
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: neighbors to do the same. About half of Americans have

578
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: received at least one COVID shot. Polling suggests enthusiasm for

579
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: vaccines continues to grow as the number of vaccinated Americans

580
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:41,279
Speaker 1: does too. Things are looking up. So boy couldn't really

581
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: in this series without also talking to the man who

582
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: has become the face of the pandemic response in the US. Obviously,

583
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 1: we're talking about Dr Anthony Fauci. Now, I didn't just

584
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: want to talk with him because he's the top infectious

585
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: disease expert in the country, or because the vaccines have

586
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 1: been referred to as the Fauciocci, a nickname. He seems

587
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: totally unimpressed by. Well, I don't know if that's an honor,

588
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 1: but it's sort of unusual. Anything that gets people to

589
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 1: get vaccinated is fine with me. If using my name

590
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: is helpful, then go ahead and use my name. As

591
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:27,760
Speaker 1: vaccines have rolled out like many Americans, I couldn't help

592
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: but notice Faucci's tireless public speaking efforts. He's doing Q

593
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 1: and as with basketball superstar Steff Curry on Instagram, appearing

594
00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,399
Speaker 1: on the news at night talking to black churches. I'm

595
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: surprised no one has floated a conspiracy theory that Fauci

596
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: has cloned himself because it feels like he's everywhere at once.

597
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: But Fauci isn't just out there talking. He's listening. He's

598
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:58,240
Speaker 1: addressing the concerns of specific communities. He's tapping other trusted

599
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: voices like Reverence to help get his message heard. In

600
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 1: other words, he's doing a lot of the things we've

601
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:09,200
Speaker 1: talked about in this series and not something I've honestly

602
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 1: not seen that many public health officials do. I wanted

603
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 1: to get Fauci's take on doubts about vaccines and how

604
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: he thinks we should be addressing it. Well, I think

605
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: you have to first realize that the issue of vaccine

606
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 1: assidency is not a unidimensional or monolithic issue at all.

607
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: There are multiple different groups and subgroups who have concerned

608
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: about vaccine that really different. This is why Fauci has

609
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: been on such a diverse speaking tour the past few months.

610
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: There are some people who just fundamentally or anti vaccine.

611
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't matter whether it's measles, whether it's

612
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:54,879
Speaker 1: you know, polio, or if it's COVID nineteen vaccines, they're

613
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: inherently against vaccines. I want to put them aside because

614
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: I think are a minor group. Then there are those

615
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 1: who traditionally have problems not only with vaccines, but with

616
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 1: the entire issue of the federal program that has to

617
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:19,720
Speaker 1: do with medicine. Many minority groups, particularly African Americans, understandably

618
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 1: feel that way because traditionally, over the years, they have

619
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: not been treated well by federally run health programs. So

620
00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 1: the first thing I do when I confront that is

621
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 1: respect the fact that they have hesitancy and don't kind

622
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: of blow it off as if why are you hesitant,

623
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 1: and say I can understand really why you might be hesitant.

624
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: Vauci also likes to tell people about all of the

625
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: systems in place that are designed to prevent an unethical

626
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: experiment like the Tuskegee syphilis study from happening again, or

627
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: to prevent scenes from being authorized before it's clear that

628
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 1: they're safe. And then they need to understand the independence

629
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: and the transparency, for example, of the data and safety

630
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: monitoring boards and the advisory committees to the Food and

631
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 1: Drug Administration. So there's that whole group of people that

632
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 1: once they understand that their hesitancy, at least I've seen,

633
00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: tends to diminish rather significantly. He says it's important to

634
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 1: counter misinformation with facts like this, but also to tap

635
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: trusted members of the community to help do it. I

636
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: was on a on a town hall meeting yesterday with

637
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: LLL cool J, you know, I mean, he is an

638
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 1: extraordinarily popular personality, and we had a conversation about why

639
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: it's important to get vaccinated. And then and the millions

640
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:59,080
Speaker 1: of people who are following that, I think I accomplished

641
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: more good towards getting people vaccinated in that, you know,

642
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 1: forty five minutes that I spent with him, then I

643
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,840
Speaker 1: could have by you know, preaching for days and days

644
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:14,320
Speaker 1: and days. Dr Fauci says he is worried though, about

645
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 1: the role anti vaccine groups have continued to play. I mean,

646
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: the people who make statements that are anti vacs based

647
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:26,840
Speaker 1: on no data, they're not responsible to anything. If they're wrong,

648
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: nobody cares. Yeah, they're very rarely right, so it doesn't

649
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 1: make any difference. You combat them by getting a message

650
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: out in a way that really resonates with them. You know,

651
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 1: I often joke around. You don't want, you know, a

652
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 1: white guy in a suit talking to a fundamentally African

653
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 1: American population who trust their own local leaders, their religious leaders,

654
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 1: their sports figures, their their entertainment, uh heroes and heroins.

655
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: You've got to get trusted messages to do that. Before

656
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,360
Speaker 1: we hung up, I asked Dr Faucci how he's feeling

657
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: about how everything is going. You know, I'm a cautious optimist.

658
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:18,319
Speaker 1: I'm more I'm I describe myself as a realist. I

659
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: have to say that's sort of how I'm feeling too.

660
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:26,799
Speaker 1: There are real hurdles facing getting everyone in America vaccinated

661
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: against COVID. Anti vaccine groups are strong right now. There

662
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: is still a fair amount of people on the fence

663
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,839
Speaker 1: about vaccines and a small number who don't want them

664
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 1: at all. Variants threatened to make gaining population wide immunity

665
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: especially challenging. We don't even know how many people will

666
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 1: need to get vaccinated to get there, but more people

667
00:44:49,680 --> 00:44:52,919
Speaker 1: are feeling confident about vaccines than they were a few

668
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 1: months ago, and people like Dr Fauci are helping to

669
00:44:57,000 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 1: change the conversation about this skepticism. They're working to earn

670
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:10,560
Speaker 1: people's trust. I don't think those efforts will go to waste.

671
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,800
Speaker 1: In this series, we have explored why so many people

672
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: are skeptical of COVID vaccines. We followed fringe anti vaccine

673
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: groups as they went mainstream, explored why Black Americans don't

674
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 1: trust the medical establishment, and how even healthcare workers can

675
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 1: be filled with doubt about vaccines once they come into

676
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:47,920
Speaker 1: contact with misinformation. All of this can paint a grim picture,

677
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: but there's also another truth. More and more people are

678
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 1: getting vaccinated every day, and we're getting closer and closer

679
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:02,400
Speaker 1: to something that looks a bit more like normal. With

680
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 1: that in mind, we wanted to end this series on

681
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: an optimistic note. We've spent a lot of time talking

682
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,359
Speaker 1: to people skeptical of the vaccines. I wanted to hear

683
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:20,879
Speaker 1: from people who put their faith in the shots. So

684
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: I have um just parked my car here at here

685
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: four at the Brooklyn Army Terminal, and uh, let's go

686
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: talk to people who are getting vaccinated Windy. The terminal

687
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: is a mass vaccination site in New York City. It's

688
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: in a more industrial part of Brooklyn. I'm standing just

689
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: outside the entrance, a site worker directs people through amainze

690
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: of checkpoints to get vaccinated. But it's also probably the

691
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,880
Speaker 1: vaccination site with the prettiest view. There is this great

692
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 1: view of the New York City skyline and the Statue

693
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:10,440
Speaker 1: of Liberty. This is a twenty four hour vaccination site.

694
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 1: People stream in and out all day long, and I

695
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: wanted to hear from them about why they decided to

696
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:21,359
Speaker 1: get the shot and what they're most looking forward to

697
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: after getting it. I got my first tost I feel good. Yeah,

698
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 1: I feel fine. So far, so good. I got my

699
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,879
Speaker 1: second vaccination today. I feel great. I'm trying to catch

700
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 1: up with my wife. She already has both, so I'm

701
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: halfway there. We got vaccinated because we want to, you know,

702
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: get back to normal. I just think it's important to

703
00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 1: have it so that everyone's healthy. I had no apprehension

704
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 1: because I do not want to get the COVID and

705
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: I want to see the city up and back up.

706
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 1: It's like our ticket out of the pandemic. I want

707
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: to see my coworkers in the office, and also just

708
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,719
Speaker 1: being able to go to restaurants and bars and be

709
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 1: able to like mingle a little bit it and actually

710
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 1: we have physical contact with people. I'm waiting to go

711
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: to my first Major League Baseball game. I went to

712
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 1: a game every year from seventy seven through I want

713
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 1: to feel free, like I'm not the effort. It's going

714
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: to happen this summer. I got vaccinated to in early April.

715
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: I am really looking forward to getting on a plane

716
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: back home to l A to see my grandma. I

717
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: haven't seen her since February of She just turned ninety

718
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 1: one in March, and I miss her a lot. But

719
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,240
Speaker 1: more than anything, I can tell you, without a doubt,

720
00:48:40,200 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to life after COVID nineteen. Doubt is

721
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: written and reported by me Kristin V. Brown. So for

722
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: Foreheads is our senior producer. Molly Nugent is our associate producer.

723
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 1: Our theme was composed and performed by Hannis Brown. Special

724
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: thanks to Randy Shapiro, Loura Carlson, and Bloomberg editors Rick

725
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 1: Shine and tim Annette. Francesca Leevie is the head of

726
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Podcast. Be sure to subscribe to Prognosis if you

727
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 1: haven't already, and if you like our show, please leave

728
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:42,000
Speaker 1: us a review helps others find out about the show.

729
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,