WEBVTT - 9 - Amanda Knox 0:00:01.480 --> 0:00:09.320 Bbcsdis Before we begin, I just want to flag that 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:13.760 this episode deals with adult themes sexual violence, drugs, and 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:22.200 it contains some very strong language. Hey everyone, it's Maggie. 0:00:22.320 --> 0:00:24.560 I want to welcome you to the first of two 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:29.480 special bonus editions of Hands Tied. Before we dive in, 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:32.680 I want to thank you all for listening to the series. Truly, 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:35.600 it meant a lot to me that you followed along 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:37.920 with us as we went into Sandy's case, and I 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:41.519 really appreciated reading all of your questions and comments throughout 0:00:41.560 --> 0:00:45.280 the series. In this episode, I'm going to catch up 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.200 with the Innocence Project of Texas for some new developments 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.080 in Sandy's case. But first I want to share a 0:00:51.120 --> 0:00:59.720 conversation I had with Amanda Knox. Amanda, you might remember, 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.880 was accused of murdering her roommate Meredith Kircher in Italy. 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.880 As a brief synopsis of what happened in Amanda's case 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:11.520 in two thousand and nine, following a trial that gripped 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:15.039 the world's media, she was found guilty and sentenced to 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:19.840 twenty six years in prison. In twenty eleven, she and 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.399 her ex who was accused of the same crime, were 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:27.720 freed on appeal. In twenty fourteen, after a retrial, she 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:31.000 was once again convicted of murder, and then in twenty 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:35.119 fifteen that conviction was overturned and both Amanda and her 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:37.200 ex boyfriend were exonerated. 0:01:40.959 --> 0:01:43.959 So I am very close friends with the folks at 0:01:44.000 --> 0:01:49.240 the Texas Innocence Project, and I was really struck by 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:54.880 how much Sandy's case resembles mine, which is odd because 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:58.520 my case and her case are not your typical women's 0:01:58.560 --> 0:02:00.200 wrongful conviction cases, right. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:02.160 It's very different than men. 0:02:02.320 --> 0:02:05.360 Like they're accused of something happening to some loved one 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:09.120 in their care and they're held to blame. And the 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.040 typical way that they are held to blame is that 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:13.560 people look at the way that they acted and say, 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:17.680 are they grieving properly? Are they giving us sort of weird, 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.080 suspicious vibes by the way that they're responding emotively to 0:02:22.800 --> 0:02:25.920 the tragedy that has occurred. So that is sort of 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.480 a universal response to how women get judged in the 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:33.680 aftermath of tragedies. But what's really interesting about Sandy's case, 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:38.640 which is similar to mine, is that she was accused 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.720 of an actual crime that occurred to someone who. 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:46.280 She cared about, who she lived with, but it was. 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:49.960 A crime that was committed in all likelihood by a 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:54.440 man who had broken into her home and assaulted her 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:58.160 husband and her and locked her in a closet and 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:00.480 locked him in a closet and just happened to murder 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:01.359 him and not her. 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:05.920 It's pretty clear that Amanda believe Sandy is innocent, and 0:03:05.960 --> 0:03:08.840 that is of course her opinion, and she's entitled to it, 0:03:09.440 --> 0:03:11.519 but that's not why I wanted to talk to her. 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.960 And researching Sandy's case and refamiliarizing myself with amandas I 0:03:17.000 --> 0:03:19.840 too was struck by some of the similarities that Amanda sees. 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.320 I think people might famously know that when I was 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.920 studying abroad in Perusia, Italy at twenty, someone broke into 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:31.640 my home and raped and murdered my roommate. And I 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.760 thankfully was not present when this occurred, but I was 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:37.720 the one who came home and found the crime scene. 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.560 Me and my boyfriend called the police. And what's very 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:46.640 similar between Sandy's case and my case is immediately immediately 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.480 when the police arrive, they assume that the break in 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:54.280 is staged, that it's all part of a conspiracy to 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.320 cover up from what really took place, which is, there 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:02.320 was some sort of domestic violence sit situation that resulted 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:07.600 in murder, and even more specifically, there was some kind 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:13.640 of sexual violence domestic violence situation that resulted in murder. 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.960 So Sandy's you know, celebrating her wedding anniversary with her 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:20.240 husband so like it's kind of a sex game, and 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.400 then she murders him and gets him in the closet 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:29.080 and somehow somehow locks herself in a closet while being 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:31.400 bound to such a degree that she has to be 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:35.080 cut free. Similarly, in my case, you know, the prosecution 0:04:35.320 --> 0:04:38.640 took one look at my house and said, there's no 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:41.200 way that a burglar actually broke in the way that 0:04:41.600 --> 0:04:44.400 the burglar actually broke in, So there must be some 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:46.599 kind of someone in the house is covering up for 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:51.279 the crime. And they almost immediately fell upon me as 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:54.080 being the foreigner, the youngest person in the house, the 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:56.920 person who called the police, and the person who they 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:02.120 assumed was reacting in not the way that you would 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:05.440 expect an innocent person to react. So in Sandy's case, 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:09.000 they're looking at her behavior, they're questioning her in the 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:15.400 aftermath and she's apparently making some inconsistent statements, and then 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:17.720 of course they're also looking at her behavior. They look 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:19.680 at you and they go are you making eye contact? 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.159 Are you avoiding eye contact? Does it seem like you 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.840 want to be there? Are you really crying or are 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.719 you fake crying? Like there's all of these sort of 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:33.160 subjective interpretations of Sandy's behavior where they are viewing her 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.400 from a lens of guilt. They have a gut feeling 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.839 that she's guilty, and then they're viewing her in her 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:42.760 responses to their questions in light of this view. 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:44.760 Very similar thing in my case. 0:05:44.920 --> 0:05:47.599 You know, I'm in a foreign country, so I'm having 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.520 to speak a foreign language while I'm being interrogated, and 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.840 there's some inconsistencies to my statements. I think one because 0:05:55.880 --> 0:05:59.400 of just language difficulties, like I'm trying to explain a 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:02.080 thing with a language that I'm not familiar with, and 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.200 so there's some fumbling along the way. 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:07.200 But also like one thing that. 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:11.080 I did lie about very early on was the fact 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.480 that everyone in the house smoked marijuana, and I was 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:16.719 very afraid. In fact, I was told by my roommates, 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.960 do not tell the police that we smoke marijuana because 0:06:20.200 --> 0:06:23.560 we'll get into trouble. So I lied about that, and 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.440 they use that as a kind of way to say, well, 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:29.160 if she's lying about that, what else is she lying about? 0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:33.160 And then it unfolds the way it does so, viewing 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:37.320 young women or women in general in a moment of 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:43.120 existential crisis and stress and interpreting their behavior with a 0:06:43.160 --> 0:06:50.040 guilt presumptive lens weirdly similar in these cases because like, 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:54.080 how often is a woman accused of orchestrating a death 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:57.920 orgy a sex crime and covering it up by making 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.280 it look like a break in when in fact and 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.800 actual break in took place. Like that's where Sandy and 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:07.599 my case are very very similar and connected. 0:07:08.320 --> 0:07:11.120 Yeah, I think that the assumption is something that I 0:07:11.160 --> 0:07:14.920 really want to dial into because in her interrogation video, 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.760 even the first time I watched it, you kind of 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:20.640 can't help but have these assumptions of how you expect 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.520 someone to act right after you know, seeing that your 0:07:24.600 --> 0:07:28.120 husband's died, to being interrogated, but then you know, you 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:32.480 have to remember it's late at night. She has medical histories, right, 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.200 and like these assumptions that we have, just like you said, 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.400 of how we expect women primarily to act in moments 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:40.040 of trauma. 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.600 Well, I'm not saying that investigators are just trying to 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.040 frame innocent people. In fact, I do not think that 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.800 that's what happened necessarily in Sandy's case or in my 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:54.280 own case. It's just that police officers are trained to 0:07:54.360 --> 0:07:58.280 have confidence in their gut judgments of people. But the 0:07:58.360 --> 0:08:01.360 unfortunate reality is that they are human beings. They are 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.800 capable of making mistakes in their judgment. But once you 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:08.400 have that cognitive bias in place, you are going to 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:13.480 interpret really subjective things, like subtle things of behavior, like 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:15.960 is she making eye contact with me or not? Is 0:08:16.000 --> 0:08:18.400 she looking to the left or not when she's speaking, 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:22.480 Like maybe you know, in her case, she's looking to 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.600 the left because she's struggling to remember, or because she's 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.640 had a head injury, like and in my case, maybe 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.079 I'm looking this way or that way because I'm trying 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:35.319 to remember what word it is in Italian that I'm 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.400 trying to say, you know. So, like, there's there's so 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:41.880 many innocent explanations for a person's behavior, and I find 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:47.680 it really obnoxious when because you have assumed guilt, you 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:51.200 just find fault in the person that you have accused. 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.280 And that's especially tragic in a case where we were 0:08:54.400 --> 0:08:58.160 victims of crime before we became victims of the criminal 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:03.880 justice system. Right, what an utter betrayal. It's just a 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:08.400 continued trauma on top of a trauma. 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:11.840 How much do you think those first couple hours in 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:15.600 the police interrogation set the same for the rest of 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:20.240 your trial and examination from the Italian prosecutors. 0:09:20.840 --> 0:09:24.680 Well, unlike Sandy, I was actually questioned for a lot longer. 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:29.160 So I was questioned for around fifty three hours over 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.360 five days. And we've had to sort of figure out 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:37.520 that because none of my actual questionings were videotaped or recorded, 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:40.200 because the police claimed that they were never interrogating me, 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:43.440 they were only interviewing me as a witness, which is 0:09:43.880 --> 0:09:48.520 really frustrating. But anyway, so I was around ten hours 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:53.319 of day with them in their custody, answering questions, sharing information, 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.760 going over what I found when I came home to 0:09:55.800 --> 0:09:59.240 the crime scene, all of that, and I was told 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.120 from the very beginning that I was their most important witness. 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:06.800 I was the one roommate who lived with Meredith, my 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.440 roommate who was murdered, who was around her age, who 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:12.760 knew her comings and goings, who knew her friendships. So 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:14.960 it made sense to me that I was spending so 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:17.680 much time with the police to help them solve this crime. 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.320 But at no point was I ever informed that I 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.160 was a suspect. I was never given my Miranda rights 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:29.040 or the Italian equivalent of them. What ultimately transpired was 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.840 the police accusing me of lying, accusing me of covering 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:36.160 up for the actual murderer, gaslighting me, lying to me, 0:10:36.679 --> 0:10:40.360 telling me that I had actually witnessed the crime but 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:44.000 I couldn't remember it because it was so traumatizing, and 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.600 ultimately sort of feeding me this idea that my boss, 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:49.760 who had texted me the night of the murder, was 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.360 actually the murderer and I was covering for him. And 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:57.880 so I eventually was coerced under duress to believing them 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.320 and signing statements to that effect. And I am convinced 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:07.440 that I never ever would have been arrested, imprisoned, put 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:11.239 on trial, and convicted were it not for that interrogation. 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:15.320 There was simply no evidence that I had anything to 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:18.319 do with this crime. The only evidence that the police 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.679 ever were able to, you know, put out there in 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:24.400 regards to me was that I lived in the house 0:11:24.480 --> 0:11:31.000 where Meredith was murdered, and everything else was unreliable, speculative, 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:35.280 all of that, and you know, like no motive. In 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.480 Sandy's case, no motive. They say that she's trying to 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.079 escape an unhappy marriage. In my case, they say, oh, 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.240 I basically was trying to escape an unhappy roommateship, you know, 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:48.480 And it's just where's the evidence where you know, where's 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:50.920 the evidence of that conflict? They had just been celebrating. 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.000 They were just in the hot tub together. So I 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.920 think that before they can get the answers from the 0:11:56.920 --> 0:12:01.160 forensic evidence, instead, they're going to hyperfolk some people's behavior, 0:12:01.240 --> 0:12:03.520 and if they have a cognitive bias to the effect 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.720 of assuming the guilt of a certain person, they're going 0:12:06.760 --> 0:12:09.079 to see what they want to see. And in my case, 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.320 they saw what they wanted to see, and they put 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.440 me through an interrogation to get the statement that they 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:15.319 wanted to get. End of story. 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.160 And you know, there's something moving on to the trial 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.360 that you wrote in your book, which I think connects 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:24.200 directly to Sandy's case, and indulge me. I'm going to 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:29.600 read it to you, Okay, So often our courtrooms are 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.760 not like laboratories where competing information is boiled. 0:12:32.440 --> 0:12:34.640 Down to truth beyond a reasonable doubt, but. 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.400 More like battlegrounds were the most compelling story, not the 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:41.960 most truthful wins. And I think Sandy's case to a 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.920 lot of the jurors, you know, I spoke with one 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.080 of the jurors, and to him, the prosecution had a 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:50.680 better story. It made more sense. They were able to 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.600 show a theory of how the prosecution believed that Sandy 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:58.000 would be able to tie her hands and to lock 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.400 herself in the closet. To him, he felt like the 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.440 defense didn't have that strong of a story. So I'd 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:07.120 love to kind of just cure your reactions to that 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:10.079 and how story is such a big thing. 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.679 When it comes to trials and murder. 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.680 Yeah, I look at the prosecutions story in Sandy's case 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:21.440 and I go, well, that's a much more interesting story. 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:26.040 Compelling in the sense that it's way more interesting. The 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:31.440 idea that a woman orchestrated this like sex game murder 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:36.360 of her husband and then very cunningly tied herself up 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:41.720 and locked herself in a closet. That's interesting, But does 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.719 it make sense? I don't think so. I think that 0:13:45.840 --> 0:13:49.319 what's interesting about that for me is I look at 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:52.880 what might be the psychology of a juror who might 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.760 connect the idea that an interesting story means that it 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.120 makes more sense, like for some reason, it's a sticky story, 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:01.720 a story sorry that stays in our head. 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:04.520 But does that mean that it actually makes sense. 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:08.440 That's where the disconnect for me happens, because I think 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.120 it makes a lot more sense in both Sandy's in 0:14:11.160 --> 0:14:14.800 my case to just you know Ockham's razor this thing 0:14:15.000 --> 0:14:17.720 and go. It looks like a break in, It smells 0:14:17.720 --> 0:14:19.360 like a break in, It talks like a break in. 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.200 It's a break in, like someone broke into the house 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.360 and murdered somebody and took advantage of a situation, like 0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:29.680 a vulnerable situation. So they said that in my case, 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.200 you know that the window that the burglar broke into, 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.720 he couldn't physically actually break into it when he has 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.680 a history of breaking into second story windows. They say 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.360 that nothing was stolen from the house, Well, what do 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.840 you mean nothing was stolen from the house, Like Meredith's 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:46.760 money was gone, her keys were gone, her phones were gone. 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:47.640 They were stolen. 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.640 But because you have reinterpreted the facts of the case 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:52.240 to be oh, well, that was just part of the 0:14:52.280 --> 0:14:56.840 staged break in. Now you are just reinterpreting actual facts 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.920 and saying that they aren't what they appear to be. 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:05.440 So again, I find it incredibly frustrating when and I 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.160 feel so horribly for Sandy, and I wonder if this 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:10.200 is the reason why I am free today and she 0:15:10.360 --> 0:15:14.240 is not. Is that DNA evidence was found at the 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:17.400 crime scene that the prosecution was not intending to find. 0:15:17.840 --> 0:15:21.320 It was sort of inevitably found because my roommate was 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:27.560 sexually assaulted and viciously attacked, and the murderer left copious 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.040 quantities of his DNA all over the crime scene, on 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.080 her body, in her belongings, his footprints and fingerprints were 0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:38.040 left in her blood. It was very bad, but also 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.080 it was inevitable that they were going to discover this person, 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.520 whether they intended to or not, that he was involved 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.640 in the crime. And I think the twist with my 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:49.920 story is even though they found that evidence of the intruder, 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.800 they just decided to reinterpret that evidence of the intruder as, oh, well, 0:15:54.880 --> 0:15:56.920 it's not really a break in. Yes, he has a 0:15:56.960 --> 0:15:59.960 history of breaking entering but in this case, he was 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.400 let into the house by Amanda and just happened to 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:05.800 be there to commit the crime with her. Like that's 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:09.440 the level of like twisting that the prosecution has to 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.640 do to make sense of their theory. In Sandy's case, 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.480 there was unknown DNA found at the crime scene, but 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:21.280 it remains unknown. And as jurors, as people in society, 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.120 we do not like we do not like cases to 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.920 be unsolved. And so if we have a person who's 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.440 put in front of us to take the responsibility for 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.200 a crime, and the police are telling us this is 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:36.960 the person, we want to believe that the police are 0:16:37.000 --> 0:16:39.280 not just going to put an innocent person, just a 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:41.800 random innocent person in front of us. Where there's smoke, 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.920 there must be fire. And therefore, I think we too 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:49.000 are inclined to be guilt presumptive, even in a situation 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.760 where technically we are supposed to be hearing the various 0:16:52.800 --> 0:16:56.800 stories coming at us with truth beyond a reasonable doubt 0:16:57.240 --> 0:16:59.160 at the core of our reasoning. But I think that 0:16:59.160 --> 0:17:02.800 that is a lot to request of human beings who 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:08.280 want to find closure. We are instinctively drawn towards closure 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:12.359 and wanting some kind of finality and sense that the 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.600 universe makes sense that somebody just couldn't be randomly assaulted 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:17.200 and murdered. 0:17:20.680 --> 0:17:23.199 So We're just going to take a quick break and 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.480 then I'll be back with Amanda Knox when she talks 0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:39.359 Pixie Girls and prison hustles, amongst other things. Welcome back. 0:17:39.760 --> 0:17:42.760 I'm going to continue my conversation with Amanda. We're pretty 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.800 much the same age, and when I was reading her 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:49.359 most recent book, I really was struck by some similarities, 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:54.800 some similarities I wanted to share with her. I just 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.240 want to say personally, like I finished your book yesterday 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:02.679 and I couldn't help it feel so much similarity to you, 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.640 because I think I was around the same age that 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:07.920 you were abroad, And like when you talk about Sailor Moon, 0:18:08.040 --> 0:18:11.040 I was like, I am regressing and have a Sailor 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:12.560 Moon phone case. 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:17.800 Right now, Yes, girl, And like Harry Potter, and like 0:18:18.160 --> 0:18:20.679 I just like really felt for you, and like putting 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.280 myself in the shoes of being twenty in a new country, 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:28.800 totally naive and then being thrown into I can't imagine 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.600 being thrown into the justice system here, let alone in 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:32.760 another country. 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.560 Yeah, and I have actually another little like thing that 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:38.639 I'm actually working on like a little stand up bit 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.520 about because we're also have to remember that in two 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:45.280 thousand and seven it was also like peak of manic 0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:49.480 pixie dreamgirl vibes, where like it was really cute to 0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.879 like strom a ukulele and dye your hair pink and 0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.920 just like be a sort of goofy girl up until 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:59.520 your roommate gets murdered and then you become a law 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.760 and Order episode because everyone's like, oh, you're a freaking psychopath. 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:07.600 So yeah, you know. I Unfortunately, we weren't granted the 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:09.040 right to interview Sandy. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:11.720 It was denied because she's in a medical facility. 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.240 But I have been able to write to her and 0:19:14.520 --> 0:19:17.560 she kind of took me through the daily hum drums 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:21.199 of prison, you know, the structure of it, and you know, 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.159 one of the major takeaways and just reading that is 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:28.560 that her world has become so small now. And I'm wondering, 0:19:28.600 --> 0:19:31.000 you know, just from your experience, is that a self 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:35.359 preservation technique? How do you start to cope when your 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.240 world just becomes smaller and smaller. 0:19:38.680 --> 0:19:44.439 Well, I think that different people respond differently. I know 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.680 that my first two years of imprisonment, I was living 0:19:48.680 --> 0:19:51.760 in a kind of state of denial that I was. 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:54.959 I felt like I was living somebody else's life by mistake. 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.439 I also spent a significant amount of that time in isolation. 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:02.359 So when I was arrested, I was not immediately thrown 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:06.440 into gen POP. I was held in isolation for eight months, 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:11.359 and so there was this weird limbo space period while 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.919 the investigation was ongoing that I was like not a 0:20:14.920 --> 0:20:17.320 part of the greater world of the prison environment. And 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.080 then I was putting into gen Pop after the investigation 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:23.120 closed after eight months of imprisonment, and then I spent 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.240 another good amount of time in prison before I was 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:32.520 actually convicted. And I got through it by really believing 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.240 in the justice system and believing that the truth would 0:20:35.240 --> 0:20:38.439 win out, and that eventually, once the adults sort of 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:42.040 all gathered into the room and agreed beyond a reasonable doubt, 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:43.679 I was going to go home. I was going to 0:20:43.680 --> 0:20:46.480 get back to my life. So I was just sort 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:50.160 of waiting to live, and I was waiting to live 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:55.160 in a very very scary, very foreign, very punitive environment. 0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:59.120 But I was very much mentally feeling like I'm not here, 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.400 I'm out there. I'm writing letters to my family every day, 0:21:02.440 --> 0:21:05.080 I'm writing letters to my friends, every day, I'm reading books. 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:08.040 I'm just like hanging in there until I can get 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:11.119 my life back. And then everything shifted for me after 0:21:11.280 --> 0:21:13.960 I got convicted and I was facing a twenty six 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:20.679 year sentence, and I realized that my life was not 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.840 somewhere else out there, It was right here in the prison. 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:34.040 This was my life, and I was almost wasting my 0:21:34.200 --> 0:21:38.680 opportunities to live by waiting to live. Like I started 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.879 looking around me and going, Okay, what possibilities do I 0:21:42.960 --> 0:21:47.080 have to live in here? And they were very limited? Right, 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:51.480 Like I cannot open a single door, There's very few 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:54.000 people I can talk to. I only have one ten 0:21:54.040 --> 0:21:57.160 minute phone call a week. I only have one visitation 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:00.360 a week that lasts for an hour, and only very 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:03.440 specific people can come visit me. I have very few 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:10.119 opportunities in life. I my opportunities weirdly expanded once I 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:12.879 looked around me in the prison environment, and I realized 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:15.359 that many of the women that I was in prison 0:22:15.440 --> 0:22:19.840 with were actually very less privileged than me, despite me 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:22.520 being the innocent person in prison, and how unfair that was. 0:22:22.680 --> 0:22:25.040 Like all of these guilty women around me did not 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:27.520 have loved ones who cared about them could not read 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:31.280 and write, were you know, dealing with mental illness or 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.679 drug addiction. I had none of those problems, and so 0:22:36.200 --> 0:22:39.480 I discovered that I could develop a prison hustle, so 0:22:39.600 --> 0:22:43.040 a sense of purpose in prison, where I started writing 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.280 and reading people's letters for them, helping them understand their 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:50.320 court documents. And it became this like invaluable resource that 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:54.800 both selfishly elevated me within the prison, you know, hierarchy 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:58.199 as someone to not fuck with, you know, like you 0:22:58.200 --> 0:23:00.280 don't want to, you know, like this is Amanda writes 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:02.800 our letters for us, do not bother her, you know. 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:06.399 And on the flip side, it was helpful to other people. 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:11.600 And so the possibilities for any single person in prison 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:17.240 are very very limited, but they are there. It's just that, 0:23:17.520 --> 0:23:21.639 you know, for me, surviving in prison meant that I 0:23:21.680 --> 0:23:26.639 took everything day by day. I did not have dreams 0:23:26.960 --> 0:23:30.320 of my future. I had a really hard time imagining 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:34.320 how I could live a fulfilled life in prison, and 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:37.800 I had to grieve the things that were stolen from me, 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:43.400 like the possibility of having children. Women who are imprisoned, 0:23:43.600 --> 0:23:48.480 and especially for long sentences, are facing our biological clocks 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:52.040 running out while we are in prison, and so not 0:23:52.080 --> 0:23:55.040 only do we lose, you know, the opportunity of a 0:23:55.119 --> 0:23:57.400 career or anything like that, but we lose the opportunity 0:23:57.480 --> 0:24:01.320 of having a family of our own. And I had 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:05.320 to grieve that and try to imagine a life worth 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:09.359