1 00:00:01,480 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Bbcsdis Before we begin, I just want to flag that 2 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: this episode deals with adult themes sexual violence, drugs, and 3 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: it contains some very strong language. Hey everyone, it's Maggie. 4 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: I want to welcome you to the first of two 5 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: special bonus editions of Hands Tied. Before we dive in, 6 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: I want to thank you all for listening to the series. Truly, 7 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: it meant a lot to me that you followed along 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: with us as we went into Sandy's case, and I 9 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,519 Speaker 1: really appreciated reading all of your questions and comments throughout 10 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: the series. In this episode, I'm going to catch up 11 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,200 Speaker 1: with the Innocence Project of Texas for some new developments 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: in Sandy's case. But first I want to share a 13 00:00:51,120 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: conversation I had with Amanda Knox. Amanda, you might remember, 14 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: was accused of murdering her roommate Meredith Kircher in Italy. 15 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: As a brief synopsis of what happened in Amanda's case 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine, following a trial that gripped 17 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: the world's media, she was found guilty and sentenced to 18 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: twenty six years in prison. In twenty eleven, she and 19 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,399 Speaker 1: her ex who was accused of the same crime, were 20 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: freed on appeal. In twenty fourteen, after a retrial, she 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: was once again convicted of murder, and then in twenty 22 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: fifteen that conviction was overturned and both Amanda and her 23 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: ex boyfriend were exonerated. 24 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:43,959 Speaker 2: So I am very close friends with the folks at 25 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 2: the Texas Innocence Project, and I was really struck by 26 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: how much Sandy's case resembles mine, which is odd because 27 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 2: my case and her case are not your typical women's 28 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 2: wrongful conviction cases, right. 29 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 3: It's very different than men. 30 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,360 Speaker 2: Like they're accused of something happening to some loved one 31 00:02:05,360 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 2: in their care and they're held to blame. And the 32 00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: typical way that they are held to blame is that 33 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 2: people look at the way that they acted and say, 34 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,680 Speaker 2: are they grieving properly? Are they giving us sort of weird, 35 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: suspicious vibes by the way that they're responding emotively to 36 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,920 Speaker 2: the tragedy that has occurred. So that is sort of 37 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 2: a universal response to how women get judged in the 38 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 2: aftermath of tragedies. But what's really interesting about Sandy's case, 39 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: which is similar to mine, is that she was accused 40 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: of an actual crime that occurred to someone who. 41 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 3: She cared about, who she lived with, but it was. 42 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 2: A crime that was committed in all likelihood by a 43 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 2: man who had broken into her home and assaulted her 44 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 2: husband and her and locked her in a closet and 45 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 2: locked him in a closet and just happened to murder 46 00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:01,359 Speaker 2: him and not her. 47 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,920 Speaker 1: It's pretty clear that Amanda believe Sandy is innocent, and 48 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: that is of course her opinion, and she's entitled to it, 49 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: but that's not why I wanted to talk to her. 50 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: And researching Sandy's case and refamiliarizing myself with amandas I 51 00:03:17,000 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 1: too was struck by some of the similarities that Amanda sees. 52 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: I think people might famously know that when I was 53 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 2: studying abroad in Perusia, Italy at twenty, someone broke into 54 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: my home and raped and murdered my roommate. And I 55 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 2: thankfully was not present when this occurred, but I was 56 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: the one who came home and found the crime scene. 57 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 2: Me and my boyfriend called the police. And what's very 58 00:03:41,600 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 2: similar between Sandy's case and my case is immediately immediately 59 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: when the police arrive, they assume that the break in 60 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: is staged, that it's all part of a conspiracy to 61 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 2: cover up from what really took place, which is, there 62 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: was some sort of domestic violence sit situation that resulted 63 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: in murder, and even more specifically, there was some kind 64 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: of sexual violence domestic violence situation that resulted in murder. 65 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: So Sandy's you know, celebrating her wedding anniversary with her 66 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 2: husband so like it's kind of a sex game, and 67 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 2: then she murders him and gets him in the closet 68 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 2: and somehow somehow locks herself in a closet while being 69 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:31,400 Speaker 2: bound to such a degree that she has to be 70 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: cut free. Similarly, in my case, you know, the prosecution 71 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: took one look at my house and said, there's no 72 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 2: way that a burglar actually broke in the way that 73 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: the burglar actually broke in, So there must be some 74 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: kind of someone in the house is covering up for 75 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: the crime. And they almost immediately fell upon me as 76 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: being the foreigner, the youngest person in the house, the 77 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 2: person who called the police, and the person who they 78 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 2: assumed was reacting in not the way that you would 79 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 2: expect an innocent person to react. So in Sandy's case, 80 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 2: they're looking at her behavior, they're questioning her in the 81 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: aftermath and she's apparently making some inconsistent statements, and then 82 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 2: of course they're also looking at her behavior. They look 83 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 2: at you and they go are you making eye contact? 84 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: Are you avoiding eye contact? Does it seem like you 85 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,840 Speaker 2: want to be there? Are you really crying or are 86 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 2: you fake crying? Like there's all of these sort of 87 00:05:27,760 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 2: subjective interpretations of Sandy's behavior where they are viewing her 88 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,400 Speaker 2: from a lens of guilt. They have a gut feeling 89 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,839 Speaker 2: that she's guilty, and then they're viewing her in her 90 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: responses to their questions in light of this view. 91 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 3: Very similar thing in my case. 92 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,599 Speaker 2: You know, I'm in a foreign country, so I'm having 93 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:51,520 Speaker 2: to speak a foreign language while I'm being interrogated, and 94 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 2: there's some inconsistencies to my statements. I think one because 95 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 2: of just language difficulties, like I'm trying to explain a 96 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 2: thing with a language that I'm not familiar with, and 97 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 2: so there's some fumbling along the way. 98 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: But also like one thing that. 99 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: I did lie about very early on was the fact 100 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,480 Speaker 2: that everyone in the house smoked marijuana, and I was 101 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 2: very afraid. In fact, I was told by my roommates, 102 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 2: do not tell the police that we smoke marijuana because 103 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 2: we'll get into trouble. So I lied about that, and 104 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 2: they use that as a kind of way to say, well, 105 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:29,160 Speaker 2: if she's lying about that, what else is she lying about? 106 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:33,160 Speaker 2: And then it unfolds the way it does so, viewing 107 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 2: young women or women in general in a moment of 108 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 2: existential crisis and stress and interpreting their behavior with a 109 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: guilt presumptive lens weirdly similar in these cases because like, 110 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: how often is a woman accused of orchestrating a death 111 00:06:54,279 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: orgy a sex crime and covering it up by making 112 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 2: it look like a break in when in fact and 113 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 2: actual break in took place. Like that's where Sandy and 114 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,599 Speaker 2: my case are very very similar and connected. 115 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that the assumption is something that I 116 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: really want to dial into because in her interrogation video, 117 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: even the first time I watched it, you kind of 118 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: can't help but have these assumptions of how you expect 119 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: someone to act right after you know, seeing that your 120 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 1: husband's died, to being interrogated, but then you know, you 121 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: have to remember it's late at night. She has medical histories, right, 122 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: and like these assumptions that we have, just like you said, 123 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: of how we expect women primarily to act in moments 124 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 1: of trauma. 125 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 2: Well, I'm not saying that investigators are just trying to 126 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: frame innocent people. In fact, I do not think that 127 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 2: that's what happened necessarily in Sandy's case or in my 128 00:07:49,880 --> 00:07:54,280 Speaker 2: own case. It's just that police officers are trained to 129 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: have confidence in their gut judgments of people. But the 130 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: unfortunate reality is that they are human beings. They are 131 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: capable of making mistakes in their judgment. But once you 132 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: have that cognitive bias in place, you are going to 133 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: interpret really subjective things, like subtle things of behavior, like 134 00:08:13,680 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 2: is she making eye contact with me or not? Is 135 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 2: she looking to the left or not when she's speaking, 136 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: Like maybe you know, in her case, she's looking to 137 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 2: the left because she's struggling to remember, or because she's 138 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: had a head injury, like and in my case, maybe 139 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 2: I'm looking this way or that way because I'm trying 140 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,319 Speaker 2: to remember what word it is in Italian that I'm 141 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 2: trying to say, you know. So, like, there's there's so 142 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 2: many innocent explanations for a person's behavior, and I find 143 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 2: it really obnoxious when because you have assumed guilt, you 144 00:08:47,920 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 2: just find fault in the person that you have accused. 145 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 2: And that's especially tragic in a case where we were 146 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 2: victims of crime before we became victims of the criminal 147 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 2: justice system. Right, what an utter betrayal. It's just a 148 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 2: continued trauma on top of a trauma. 149 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: How much do you think those first couple hours in 150 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: the police interrogation set the same for the rest of 151 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: your trial and examination from the Italian prosecutors. 152 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: Well, unlike Sandy, I was actually questioned for a lot longer. 153 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 2: So I was questioned for around fifty three hours over 154 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 2: five days. And we've had to sort of figure out 155 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 2: that because none of my actual questionings were videotaped or recorded, 156 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 2: because the police claimed that they were never interrogating me, 157 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 2: they were only interviewing me as a witness, which is 158 00:09:43,880 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 2: really frustrating. But anyway, so I was around ten hours 159 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 2: of day with them in their custody, answering questions, sharing information, 160 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 2: going over what I found when I came home to 161 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 2: the crime scene, all of that, and I was told 162 00:09:59,240 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: from the very beginning that I was their most important witness. 163 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 2: I was the one roommate who lived with Meredith, my 164 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 2: roommate who was murdered, who was around her age, who 165 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 2: knew her comings and goings, who knew her friendships. So 166 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: it made sense to me that I was spending so 167 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 2: much time with the police to help them solve this crime. 168 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: But at no point was I ever informed that I 169 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 2: was a suspect. I was never given my Miranda rights 170 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:29,040 Speaker 2: or the Italian equivalent of them. What ultimately transpired was 171 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,840 Speaker 2: the police accusing me of lying, accusing me of covering 172 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 2: up for the actual murderer, gaslighting me, lying to me, 173 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 2: telling me that I had actually witnessed the crime but 174 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 2: I couldn't remember it because it was so traumatizing, and 175 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: ultimately sort of feeding me this idea that my boss, 176 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: who had texted me the night of the murder, was 177 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: actually the murderer and I was covering for him. And 178 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 2: so I eventually was coerced under duress to believing them 179 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,320 Speaker 2: and signing statements to that effect. And I am convinced 180 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 2: that I never ever would have been arrested, imprisoned, put 181 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:11,239 Speaker 2: on trial, and convicted were it not for that interrogation. 182 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,320 Speaker 2: There was simply no evidence that I had anything to 183 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 2: do with this crime. The only evidence that the police 184 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 2: ever were able to, you know, put out there in 185 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 2: regards to me was that I lived in the house 186 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 2: where Meredith was murdered, and everything else was unreliable, speculative, 187 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 2: all of that, and you know, like no motive. In 188 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: Sandy's case, no motive. They say that she's trying to 189 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 2: escape an unhappy marriage. In my case, they say, oh, 190 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: I basically was trying to escape an unhappy roommateship, you know, 191 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 2: And it's just where's the evidence where you know, where's 192 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: the evidence of that conflict? They had just been celebrating. 193 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 2: They were just in the hot tub together. So I 194 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: think that before they can get the answers from the 195 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: forensic evidence, instead, they're going to hyperfolk some people's behavior, 196 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: and if they have a cognitive bias to the effect 197 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: of assuming the guilt of a certain person, they're going 198 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: to see what they want to see. And in my case, 199 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 2: they saw what they wanted to see, and they put 200 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 2: me through an interrogation to get the statement that they 201 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 2: wanted to get. End of story. 202 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,160 Speaker 1: And you know, there's something moving on to the trial 203 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: that you wrote in your book, which I think connects 204 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,200 Speaker 1: directly to Sandy's case, and indulge me. I'm going to 205 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: read it to you, Okay, So often our courtrooms are 206 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: not like laboratories where competing information is boiled. 207 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 4: Down to truth beyond a reasonable doubt, but. 208 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: More like battlegrounds were the most compelling story, not the 209 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 1: most truthful wins. And I think Sandy's case to a 210 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: lot of the jurors, you know, I spoke with one 211 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: of the jurors, and to him, the prosecution had a 212 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 1: better story. It made more sense. They were able to 213 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: show a theory of how the prosecution believed that Sandy 214 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,000 Speaker 1: would be able to tie her hands and to lock 215 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:01,400 Speaker 1: herself in the closet. To him, he felt like the 216 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:04,440 Speaker 1: defense didn't have that strong of a story. So I'd 217 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: love to kind of just cure your reactions to that 218 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,079 Speaker 1: and how story is such a big thing. 219 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 4: When it comes to trials and murder. 220 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I look at the prosecutions story in Sandy's case 221 00:13:17,800 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: and I go, well, that's a much more interesting story. 222 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 2: Compelling in the sense that it's way more interesting. The 223 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 2: idea that a woman orchestrated this like sex game murder 224 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: of her husband and then very cunningly tied herself up 225 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: and locked herself in a closet. That's interesting, But does 226 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,719 Speaker 2: it make sense? I don't think so. I think that 227 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 2: what's interesting about that for me is I look at 228 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 2: what might be the psychology of a juror who might 229 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 2: connect the idea that an interesting story means that it 230 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: makes more sense, like for some reason, it's a sticky story, 231 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: a story sorry that stays in our head. 232 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 3: But does that mean that it actually makes sense. 233 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 2: That's where the disconnect for me happens, because I think 234 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 2: it makes a lot more sense in both Sandy's in 235 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: my case to just you know Ockham's razor this thing 236 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:17,720 Speaker 2: and go. It looks like a break in, It smells 237 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:19,360 Speaker 2: like a break in, It talks like a break in. 238 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 2: It's a break in, like someone broke into the house 239 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: and murdered somebody and took advantage of a situation, like 240 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 2: a vulnerable situation. So they said that in my case, 241 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: you know that the window that the burglar broke into, 242 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: he couldn't physically actually break into it when he has 243 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: a history of breaking into second story windows. They say 244 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: that nothing was stolen from the house, Well, what do 245 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 2: you mean nothing was stolen from the house, Like Meredith's 246 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: money was gone, her keys were gone, her phones were gone. 247 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 3: They were stolen. 248 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: But because you have reinterpreted the facts of the case 249 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 2: to be oh, well, that was just part of the 250 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 2: staged break in. Now you are just reinterpreting actual facts 251 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: and saying that they aren't what they appear to be. 252 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 2: So again, I find it incredibly frustrating when and I 253 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 2: feel so horribly for Sandy, and I wonder if this 254 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 2: is the reason why I am free today and she 255 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: is not. Is that DNA evidence was found at the 256 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: crime scene that the prosecution was not intending to find. 257 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: It was sort of inevitably found because my roommate was 258 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 2: sexually assaulted and viciously attacked, and the murderer left copious 259 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 2: quantities of his DNA all over the crime scene, on 260 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: her body, in her belongings, his footprints and fingerprints were 261 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: left in her blood. It was very bad, but also 262 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,080 Speaker 2: it was inevitable that they were going to discover this person, 263 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: whether they intended to or not, that he was involved 264 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 2: in the crime. And I think the twist with my 265 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 2: story is even though they found that evidence of the intruder, 266 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 2: they just decided to reinterpret that evidence of the intruder as, oh, well, 267 00:15:54,880 --> 00:15:56,920 Speaker 2: it's not really a break in. Yes, he has a 268 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 2: history of breaking entering but in this case, he was 269 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 2: let into the house by Amanda and just happened to 270 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 2: be there to commit the crime with her. Like that's 271 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: the level of like twisting that the prosecution has to 272 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: do to make sense of their theory. In Sandy's case, 273 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: there was unknown DNA found at the crime scene, but 274 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 2: it remains unknown. And as jurors, as people in society, 275 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 2: we do not like we do not like cases to 276 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: be unsolved. And so if we have a person who's 277 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 2: put in front of us to take the responsibility for 278 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 2: a crime, and the police are telling us this is 279 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 2: the person, we want to believe that the police are 280 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: not just going to put an innocent person, just a 281 00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 2: random innocent person in front of us. Where there's smoke, 282 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 2: there must be fire. And therefore, I think we too 283 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 2: are inclined to be guilt presumptive, even in a situation 284 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:52,760 Speaker 2: where technically we are supposed to be hearing the various 285 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 2: stories coming at us with truth beyond a reasonable doubt 286 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 2: at the core of our reasoning. But I think that 287 00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 2: that is a lot to request of human beings who 288 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 2: want to find closure. We are instinctively drawn towards closure 289 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 2: and wanting some kind of finality and sense that the 290 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 2: universe makes sense that somebody just couldn't be randomly assaulted 291 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 2: and murdered. 292 00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: So We're just going to take a quick break and 293 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: then I'll be back with Amanda Knox when she talks 294 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: Pixie Girls and prison hustles, amongst other things. Welcome back. 295 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to continue my conversation with Amanda. We're pretty 296 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: much the same age, and when I was reading her 297 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: most recent book, I really was struck by some similarities, 298 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: some similarities I wanted to share with her. I just 299 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: want to say personally, like I finished your book yesterday 300 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: and I couldn't help it feel so much similarity to you, 301 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,640 Speaker 1: because I think I was around the same age that 302 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: you were abroad, And like when you talk about Sailor Moon, 303 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: I was like, I am regressing and have a Sailor 304 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: Moon phone case. 305 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 5: Right now, Yes, girl, And like Harry Potter, and like 306 00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,679 Speaker 5: I just like really felt for you, and like putting 307 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 5: myself in the shoes of being twenty in a new country, 308 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 5: totally naive and then being thrown into I can't imagine 309 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 5: being thrown into the justice system here, let alone in 310 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,760 Speaker 5: another country. 311 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I have actually another little like thing that 312 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 2: I'm actually working on like a little stand up bit 313 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 2: about because we're also have to remember that in two 314 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 2: thousand and seven it was also like peak of manic 315 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 2: pixie dreamgirl vibes, where like it was really cute to 316 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 2: like strom a ukulele and dye your hair pink and 317 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 2: just like be a sort of goofy girl up until 318 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: your roommate gets murdered and then you become a law 319 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: and Order episode because everyone's like, oh, you're a freaking psychopath. 320 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, you know. I Unfortunately, we weren't granted the 321 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: right to interview Sandy. 322 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,720 Speaker 4: It was denied because she's in a medical facility. 323 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: But I have been able to write to her and 324 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: she kind of took me through the daily hum drums 325 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: of prison, you know, the structure of it, and you know, 326 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: one of the major takeaways and just reading that is 327 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: that her world has become so small now. And I'm wondering, 328 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: you know, just from your experience, is that a self 329 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: preservation technique? How do you start to cope when your 330 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: world just becomes smaller and smaller. 331 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:44,439 Speaker 2: Well, I think that different people respond differently. I know 332 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 2: that my first two years of imprisonment, I was living 333 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 2: in a kind of state of denial that I was. 334 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,959 Speaker 2: I felt like I was living somebody else's life by mistake. 335 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 2: I also spent a significant amount of that time in isolation. 336 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 2: So when I was arrested, I was not immediately thrown 337 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 2: into gen POP. I was held in isolation for eight months, 338 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 2: and so there was this weird limbo space period while 339 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 2: the investigation was ongoing that I was like not a 340 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 2: part of the greater world of the prison environment. And 341 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: then I was putting into gen Pop after the investigation 342 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 2: closed after eight months of imprisonment, and then I spent 343 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 2: another good amount of time in prison before I was 344 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: actually convicted. And I got through it by really believing 345 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: in the justice system and believing that the truth would 346 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,439 Speaker 2: win out, and that eventually, once the adults sort of 347 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 2: all gathered into the room and agreed beyond a reasonable doubt, 348 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 2: I was going to go home. I was going to 349 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 2: get back to my life. So I was just sort 350 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 2: of waiting to live, and I was waiting to live 351 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: in a very very scary, very foreign, very punitive environment. 352 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: But I was very much mentally feeling like I'm not here, 353 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 2: I'm out there. I'm writing letters to my family every day, 354 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:05,080 Speaker 2: I'm writing letters to my friends, every day, I'm reading books. 355 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: I'm just like hanging in there until I can get 356 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,119 Speaker 2: my life back. And then everything shifted for me after 357 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 2: I got convicted and I was facing a twenty six 358 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 2: year sentence, and I realized that my life was not 359 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 2: somewhere else out there, It was right here in the prison. 360 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 2: This was my life, and I was almost wasting my 361 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 2: opportunities to live by waiting to live. Like I started 362 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 2: looking around me and going, Okay, what possibilities do I 363 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 2: have to live in here? And they were very limited? Right, 364 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 2: Like I cannot open a single door, There's very few 365 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 2: people I can talk to. I only have one ten 366 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 2: minute phone call a week. I only have one visitation 367 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 2: a week that lasts for an hour, and only very 368 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 2: specific people can come visit me. I have very few 369 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:10,119 Speaker 2: opportunities in life. I my opportunities weirdly expanded once I 370 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 2: looked around me in the prison environment, and I realized 371 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,359 Speaker 2: that many of the women that I was in prison 372 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: with were actually very less privileged than me, despite me 373 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 2: being the innocent person in prison, and how unfair that was. 374 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: Like all of these guilty women around me did not 375 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: have loved ones who cared about them could not read 376 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 2: and write, were you know, dealing with mental illness or 377 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,679 Speaker 2: drug addiction. I had none of those problems, and so 378 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: I discovered that I could develop a prison hustle, so 379 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 2: a sense of purpose in prison, where I started writing 380 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 2: and reading people's letters for them, helping them understand their 381 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: court documents. And it became this like invaluable resource that 382 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: both selfishly elevated me within the prison, you know, hierarchy 383 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 2: as someone to not fuck with, you know, like you 384 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: don't want to, you know, like this is Amanda writes 385 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: our letters for us, do not bother her, you know. 386 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 2: And on the flip side, it was helpful to other people. 387 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 2: And so the possibilities for any single person in prison 388 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:17,240 Speaker 2: are very very limited, but they are there. It's just that, 389 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: you know, for me, surviving in prison meant that I 390 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: took everything day by day. I did not have dreams 391 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 2: of my future. I had a really hard time imagining 392 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 2: how I could live a fulfilled life in prison, and 393 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 2: I had to grieve the things that were stolen from me, 394 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 2: like the possibility of having children. Women who are imprisoned, 395 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: and especially for long sentences, are facing our biological clocks 396 00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: running out while we are in prison, and so not 397 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 2: only do we lose, you know, the opportunity of a 398 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 2: career or anything like that, but we lose the opportunity 399 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: of having a family of our own. And I had 400 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 2: to grieve that and try to imagine a life worth 401 00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 2: living that didn't have that aspect to it, and it 402 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 2: was really, honestly too difficult for me to imagine. So 403 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 2: I instead focused on how do I make today worth living? 404 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 2: And I'll figure out tomorrow. 405 00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 1: Tomorrow, Yeah, And I imagine. You know, Sandy doesn't have 406 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: the same circumstances, but it's a similar thing of the 407 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,440 Speaker 1: connections that she can get with her grandchildren, the connections 408 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 1: that she can get with her daughter. You know, one 409 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 1: thing that you talk about which you know, even though 410 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 1: I didn't get to meet Sandy in person, I do 411 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: know her daughter and I spent a couple days with 412 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: her in London. And you know, Liz really talks about 413 00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 1: and you talk about it in your book too, as 414 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: this before and after where she really remembers who she 415 00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: was before her dad's. 416 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 4: Murder and her mom's imprisonment and who she is now. 417 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,399 Speaker 1: And you know, she talks about similar things that you 418 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: talked about in your most recent book of not being 419 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:05,119 Speaker 1: able to trust anybody to feeling, you know, a gloraphobic, 420 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: And I think that that would be a great thing 421 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,840 Speaker 1: if you could just kind of talk about your own 422 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: experience of those two identities, you know, and I imagine 423 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 1: please correct me if I'm wrong. 424 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 4: You know, you were talking about. 425 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,119 Speaker 1: This fantasy of maybe getting out what life will be like, 426 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: maybe isn't what you fantasize, and how you sort of 427 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: start to make sense of this new life. 428 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:31,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I look back on my life and see it 429 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: as as I've lived three distinct lives, right Like, there's 430 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 2: before I was arrested for a crama didn't commit, and 431 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,040 Speaker 2: then there's the life that I lived in prison, and 432 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 2: then there is the life that I have lived since 433 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:53,479 Speaker 2: I've been fully exonerated. And they are very very different 434 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: lives and very different people in a way who lived 435 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,240 Speaker 2: those lives, right Like, since you know, getting out of prison, 436 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 2: I went back to Italy, because you know, while I 437 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 2: was in prison, I had this fantasy that as soon 438 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 2: as I got out, I would get to go back. 439 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 3: To that life of before prison. 440 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,679 Speaker 2: I would get to go back to being the anonymous 441 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: college student who was, you know, studying languages and doing 442 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 2: creative writing, and this horrible thing that just happened to 443 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,600 Speaker 2: me that didn't really have anything to do with me 444 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,360 Speaker 2: would fade away. 445 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 3: Like it would go away. 446 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 2: And I was very rudely awakened to the reality that 447 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 2: that was not the case when I got home, not 448 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 2: just because I was still on trial after being released 449 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: from prison, and the media were, you know, following me around, 450 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,639 Speaker 2: and I was still the girl accused of murder in 451 00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:58,640 Speaker 2: the in the public imagination, I could never go back 452 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 2: to being an anonymous person in the world, like I 453 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 2: was carrying the stigma of that accusation forever with me 454 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,160 Speaker 2: from an external point of view. But on top of that, 455 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: there is the realization that the girl that nothing bad 456 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 2: had ever happened to no longer existed. And I was 457 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 2: carrying with me a deep knowledge and experience of suffering 458 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 2: that I didn't have before that had changed me and 459 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 2: that I now was burdened with having. 460 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 3: To make sense of. And it it changed me. 461 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 2: I mean, like I had emotions that I'd never really 462 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 2: felt before, a big one being rage. I was not 463 00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 2: somebody who experienced rage when I was a kid. Like 464 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 2: that was deep deep existential angst or I was never 465 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 2: the kind of person who was triggered by being around 466 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: other people. Or there was this period of time and 467 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 2: I got out when everyone in my family sort of 468 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,320 Speaker 2: had to walk around on eggshells around me because they 469 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 2: didn't know what kind of thing was going to set 470 00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: me off, and because they had not, you know, walked 471 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 2: through the prison experience alongside me, They had not been 472 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: in the interrogation room with me, And so there were 473 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:19,960 Speaker 2: things that I experienced in the real world that had 474 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 2: like just a little bit of resonance, or even just 475 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 2: something like walking down the sidewalk and glimpsing somebody out 476 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,399 Speaker 2: of the corner of my eye who reminded me a 477 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 2: lot of one of my cellmates. And then immediately I'm 478 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 2: just like back on the prison block, and I'm just 479 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 2: and I have to like get that out of my 480 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: head so I can just keep on walking to my 481 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: job at the bookstore. 482 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 3: Right Like, there are these. 483 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: Things, like you feel haunted by these experiences that you've 484 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: gone through, and you have to make sense of them 485 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 2: in order to feel like you are not just utterly 486 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: debilitated by them, which is the journey that I then 487 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: describe in my new book, which is taking the question 488 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,479 Speaker 2: of like now what now that I've gone through this? 489 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 2: Now what how do I have a place in the 490 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 2: world after this? How do I trust people after this? 491 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 2: How do I trust myself after all of this? Those 492 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 2: are big questions that anyone who has gone through trauma 493 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 2: is going to face, but especially someone who has been 494 00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 2: again victimized by crime and the criminal justice system, those 495 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: institutions like collapsed beneath her, beneath me? 496 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 3: And how do. 497 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: You rebuild a sense of stability and confidence in the 498 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,120 Speaker 2: world and in humanity after having that taken away from you? Right, 499 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:42,920 Speaker 2: We've all had loss, We've all had a. 500 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 3: Worse moment of our lives. 501 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: We've all had something happened to us that was out 502 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 2: of our control. And it is finding that common ground 503 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,840 Speaker 2: that we can see each other and support each other. 504 00:29:54,760 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: Beautifully said, thank you so much. Yeah, I think so 505 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: often it's hard for us to fathom what it's like 506 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,000 Speaker 1: going through something like Amanda did. But if we can 507 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: focus on the universal experiences she flagged, like loss, grief, 508 00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: having something happen to us outside of our control, it 509 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,160 Speaker 1: may help us better understand each other in the different. 510 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:23,480 Speaker 4: Paths all our lives take. 511 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: So I want to thank Amanda again for taking the 512 00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: time to chat with me, and after a quick break, 513 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: I'll catch up at the Innocence Project of Texas and 514 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: hear some of the latest developments in Sandy's case. So again, 515 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: welcome back, appreciate you staying with us. Before we hear 516 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: from the Innocence Project of Texas, a quick reminder of 517 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,320 Speaker 1: where things were left. Back in twenty twelve, on the 518 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 1: night Jim's body was found, the police swapped the crime 519 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: scene for DNA and took away more than one hundred 520 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: bits of evidence for further testing, but because they were 521 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:11,240 Speaker 1: low level samples, many didn't reveal much. As we heard 522 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: in the last episode, technology has come a long way 523 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: since then, and the Innocence Project is trying to get 524 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: some of those bits of evidence retested. We heard about 525 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: the murder weapon, the knife that was found in the jacuzzi, 526 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: and how a new test showed Jim's DNA was found 527 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: on it, but so is at least one other person's, 528 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: someone who isn't Sandy or anyone else in the family. Now, 529 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: other samples from the crime scene have been reanalyzed, like 530 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: the fabric that was used to tie Sandy up in 531 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 1: the closet where she was found, and Mike Ware from 532 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: the Innocence Project of Texas explains what those tests reveal. 533 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 6: The bindings on Sandy. They have reanalyzed the data taken 534 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 6: from the swabs from the bindings on her arms and hands, 535 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 6: and they have determined that her DNA's on there, but 536 00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 6: so is an unknown person's DNA on there. It's not 537 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 6: anybody in the families. It doesn't belong to them who 538 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 6: originally found her and untieder. It is an unknown DNA. 539 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 6: Now it's not redundant of what's on the knife handle, 540 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 6: which does tells us there were two people. 541 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: So there's Sandy's DNA as you'd expect on the bindings 542 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: used to tire up, but there's also someone else's DNA, 543 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: and that DNA is different to the DNA on the knife. 544 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 6: There's no reason to believe there was not at least 545 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 6: two people. I have no reason to believe there weren't 546 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 6: two people. One person's DNA on the bindings of Sandy, 547 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 6: another person's DNA on the murder weapon, which I think 548 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 6: is enough that she should win a writ on. 549 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: That, a writ of habeas corpus, which basically means they're 550 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: asking for a federal court to re review Sandy's case 551 00:32:57,840 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: because they believe she is wrongly in prisoned. 552 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 6: When you look at the evidence at trial vs. IV, 553 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 6: this new evidence, it's very powerful. And then we decided 554 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 6: that we wanted to DNA test the hair or hairs 555 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 6: that were in Jim's hand. They're fairly short, rootless hairs 556 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 6: in around his hand. This is not you know, a 557 00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 6: case where he was shot by a gun from across 558 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,680 Speaker 6: the room. He was in a struggle that resulted in 559 00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 6: you know, however, many stab and cut wounds, and so 560 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 6: this was a very as they say, up close and personal. 561 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 6: So if he has a hair or hairs, regardless of 562 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 6: the fact that they're very short and rootless in his hands, 563 00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 6: that belonged to an unknown individual, once again, we would 564 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 6: say that it's highly likely that that unknown individual that 565 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,600 Speaker 6: is not Sandy and is not him, is the person 566 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 6: he was struggling with in his you know, last moments. 567 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 6: And the judge has signed the order ordering that done, 568 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:05,920 Speaker 6: ordering that testing done. 569 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: And so that's the first step to kind of start 570 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: to figure out whose hair, If it isn't Gems or Sandy's, 571 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 1: whose it could possibly. 572 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 6: Be well, it belongs to the murderer who's not Sandy. 573 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 6: That's whose it is. Now. The only way to identify 574 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 6: whose it is is to have an alternative suspect and 575 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 6: get a profile from that alternative suspect and do a 576 00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,719 Speaker 6: side by side and if it's a match, that in 577 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 6: and of itself might not be enough to convict that 578 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 6: person because the numbers are not that high. 579 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,799 Speaker 1: I know, in our last conversation you were saying that 580 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: justice is very much a marathon and not a sprint. 581 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: But in terms of these new developments and these new angles, 582 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: where are you on the hope spectrum? 583 00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 6: I feel very cautiously optimistic. And the thing about getting 584 00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:04,160 Speaker 6: back into court and getting a judge involved, I mean, 585 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 6: the DA's office has been very cooperative with us, but 586 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 6: having a judge involved and having a formal motion and 587 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 6: this is a formal what we call Chapter sixty four 588 00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,440 Speaker 6: motion for post conviction DNA testing, we've got kind of 589 00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 6: those guardrails that you know, we've got a judge pushing 590 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 6: us along too, so hopefully that will speed the process. 591 00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,960 Speaker 1: Well. I hope that you'll keep us posted on how 592 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: it goes in these results, because it seems like things 593 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 1: are moving in ways that when the last time we 594 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,840 Speaker 1: talked it, it seems like there's more momentum now. 595 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 6: I think so, I think so. Yeah. 596 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: We will continue to be following this story as it progresses, 597 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: and I hope we'll be able to update you with 598 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:59,879 Speaker 1: any major developments. Not to be all like in subc 599 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 1: but liken subscribe and any new updates will be uploaded 600 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: to the feed. Next week. I'm going to get into 601 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that didn't quite make it into 602 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 1: the series, including more on the home invasions that we're 603 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: plaguing parts of Texas in twenty twelve. I hope you'll 604 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: stay with us, and I hope to see you next week. 605 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: Thanks you've been listening to Hands Tied. I'm Maggie Robinson 606 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 1: Katz and the producer is Maggie Latham. Sound design and 607 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,160 Speaker 1: mix is by Tom Brignoll. Our script consultant is Emma 608 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: Weatherall production support is from Dan Martini, Elena Boutang, and 609 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 1: Mabel Finnigan Wright, and our production executive is Laura Jordan Raul. 610 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: The series was developed by Anya Saunders and Emma Shaw 611 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,719 Speaker 1: at iHeart. The Managing Executive producer is Christina Everett. And 612 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: for BBC Studios. The executive producer is Joe Kent.