Speaker 1: When we want the truth more than we want life
Speaker 1: to look a certain way, the truth begins to reveal itself.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dorothy Hunt,
Speaker 1: who serves as spiritual director of Moon Mountain Sanka, teaching
Speaker 1: the spiritual lineage of Addy Ashanti, who invited her to
Speaker 1: share in the Dharma in two thousand four. Dorothy is
Speaker 1: the founder of the San Francisco Center for Meditation and
Speaker 1: Psychotherapy and has practiced since nineteen sixty seven. Her published
Speaker 1: works include Only This and Leaves from Moon Mountain. Her
Speaker 1: new book is Ending the Search from Spiritual Ambition to
Speaker 1: the Heart of Awareness. Hi, Dorothy, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. Eric. You're the author of
Speaker 1: a book called Ending the Search from Spiritual Ambition to
Speaker 1: the Heart of Awareness. And I'm really excited to jump
Speaker 1: in and talk more about the book. But we'll start
Speaker 1: like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandmother
Speaker 1: who's talking with her grandson and she says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about
Speaker 1: it for a second. He looks up at his grandmother
Speaker 1: and he says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the
Speaker 1: grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd like to
Speaker 1: start off by asking you what that parable means to
Speaker 1: you in your life and in the work that you do.
Speaker 1: Sure well, I have various ways that I might look
Speaker 1: at that parable. I mean, the most obvious one is
Speaker 1: that reality to me is whole, the wholeness of being,
Speaker 1: So we're going to have everything that is in the
Speaker 1: wholeness of being. So you know, in that sense, the
Speaker 1: one is whole, you know, and the and the one
Speaker 1: that I would call reality or what's most deeply true
Speaker 1: about us, UM is actually we feeding us with its
Speaker 1: own awareness, its own experience, its own really love of being.
Speaker 1: You know, I think that's why we must have this
Speaker 1: world and our lives. That's something in us being itself
Speaker 1: really just loves to be and it can be everything.
Speaker 1: That being said, you know, it's this infinite potential that
Speaker 1: could be anything. And UM as such, you know, we
Speaker 1: carry the seeds of everything within us. So we have
Speaker 1: the seeds of kindness and compassion and awakening and love
Speaker 1: and all of that, and then we have seeds of
Speaker 1: hatred and greed and fear and um, all those so
Speaker 1: called negative things. And really we get to see which
Speaker 1: ones we water, you know, which seeds we want to
Speaker 1: water with our attention, because anything that we give attention to,
Speaker 1: we give reality to. There are millions of things happening
Speaker 1: right now in the world, but you and I are
Speaker 1: giving our attention to this conversation. So UM it's true.
Speaker 1: It's those seeds that are in us, and so often
Speaker 1: we're apt to just project the negative to other people
Speaker 1: and say, well, it's them that's the problem, you know,
Speaker 1: us and them, without really realizing that we wouldn't see
Speaker 1: it over there if it weren't in ourselves. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of a humbling process. Um, this thing called awakening
Speaker 1: to see that everything is an inside job. But it's
Speaker 1: an all. It's an inside job in the sense of,
Speaker 1: you know, what's what's out there is in here. Um.
Speaker 1: It may not be expressed in the same way because
Speaker 1: we have these very unique expressions, but but there's something
Speaker 1: that's awake to the whole show, and and to me,
Speaker 1: that's that's where that the deeper dimension of peace and
Speaker 1: love and compassion is going to be found. It's not
Speaker 1: going to be found in the mind that thinks it
Speaker 1: separate from all of that. So those are just a
Speaker 1: few thoughts about the parable. Okay, great, we'll get more
Speaker 1: into this. But you are a teacher in I don't
Speaker 1: know if I'm gonna get the words right, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you this is how you would
Speaker 1: refer to it. But you've learned from a couple of
Speaker 1: different people, but one of them is is Audi Ashanti,
Speaker 1: who listeners of the show will know because he's been
Speaker 1: on here two or three. He's been on here a
Speaker 1: couple of times, and so listeners will know that. And
Speaker 1: so I'm just saying that to sort of frame it
Speaker 1: up and to frame up that your teaching is similar
Speaker 1: to his end that the key focus is on awakening
Speaker 1: to our our true reality. So just to give listeners
Speaker 1: sort of an overview of where we're headed, I want
Speaker 1: to start off with just talking about the title for
Speaker 1: a second, and in the search from spiritual ambition to
Speaker 1: the Heart of Awareness, I'd like to first start off
Speaker 1: and talk about what spiritual ambition means to you, what
Speaker 1: that term means, and then what is it's for lack
Speaker 1: of a better word, it's more useful, cousin if ambition
Speaker 1: is and hit what what is? Because well, we'll get there.
Speaker 1: I'll let you. I'll let you take from there. To start,
Speaker 1: Spiritual ambition is the desire to get something for the me.
Speaker 1: Most people really come into the spiritual search wanting to
Speaker 1: feel better. We're wanting some way out of suffering, wanting
Speaker 1: to be some place else or someone else, or you know,
Speaker 1: something should be different about life or their life or
Speaker 1: or whatever. And so there's an ambition when we begin
Speaker 1: to want something that we think isn't here, you know,
Speaker 1: that we want to get we want to get it um.
Speaker 1: And so frequently we're looking aside at teachers or books
Speaker 1: or practices or whatever, of which are fine, but we're
Speaker 1: looking out there for something that is already in here um.
Speaker 1: And so when we begin to be quiet, perhaps or
Speaker 1: have spiritual practice of some sort, that that invites us
Speaker 1: to turn our looking backwards, to turn and look for
Speaker 1: who's looking, Who's who's searching? Who? Who? Who is that
Speaker 1: that you know? Well, well it's me, it's me. And
Speaker 1: then you know, if we take it a little step further,
Speaker 1: then who is that you know, who is it that's searching? Um.
Speaker 1: So that in the book there's quite a bit of
Speaker 1: attention to self inquiry um as it was introduced to
Speaker 1: me through the teachings of Rahmaa Maharshey. But I just
Speaker 1: shan'ty certainly talks about self inquiry as being one of
Speaker 1: the practices that I think all of us eventually will
Speaker 1: come to who or what is this person called myself?
Speaker 1: You know? Uh, if we really want to awaken to
Speaker 1: the truth of what we are, because otherwise we just
Speaker 1: maintain an identity with only one body mind and one
Speaker 1: set of you know, thoughts, memories, consciousness and so forth,
Speaker 1: as that's the extent of who we are. And so
Speaker 1: we're always searching for what's beyond, or what's faster than that,
Speaker 1: or what will bring us out of where we are
Speaker 1: into someplace else. So ambition is really to get something
Speaker 1: for me. But when we wake up to who or
Speaker 1: what we truly are, we realize that one doesn't exist
Speaker 1: in the way that we thought. It's not who we
Speaker 1: really are those thoughts about ourselves, and so, you know,
Speaker 1: the ambition piece becomes overtime, so assumed by the realization
Speaker 1: that what we are, what I am is, what you are,
Speaker 1: what your listeners are, what what life is. Bottom line
Speaker 1: there is there's a unified reality. So I want to
Speaker 1: read a line of yours because I think it touches
Speaker 1: on this And this is one of those things that's
Speaker 1: come up on the show a bunch of times, and
Speaker 1: it's just a paradox, and yet I keep trying to
Speaker 1: talk about it as if that will resolve the paradox.
Speaker 1: But which I know it won't, but it's still important
Speaker 1: to talk about. And you say you desire spiritual awakening,
Speaker 1: yet maybe told by those you imagine are awake that
Speaker 1: either your desire is not great enough, or your desire
Speaker 1: is the obstacle. And I think that is the paradox
Speaker 1: that for me, sits right in the heart of all this,
Speaker 1: is that it is some degree of desire. You call
Speaker 1: it a spiritual impulse, being a gift to us, that
Speaker 1: there's this impulse towards awakening, towards wanting to know the truth,
Speaker 1: and that maybe to varying degrees, driven by a desire
Speaker 1: to escape suffering. And I agree with you. I think
Speaker 1: that's where it starts for most of us. And there's
Speaker 1: still an element of that that remains. But it's the
Speaker 1: desire or the spiritual impulse to even look, to even
Speaker 1: take the time to ask the questions, to to do
Speaker 1: any of that is what at least sets the ground
Speaker 1: for most people. There are cases of people who just
Speaker 1: spontaneously wake up, but most people who wake up, it's
Speaker 1: as a result of some degree of effort that's being
Speaker 1: put forward. So I'm just wondering if you could talk
Speaker 1: about the role of desire, effort, and grace in in
Speaker 1: how all of this happens. Yes, I always loved what
Speaker 1: Nizargadada said about effort. He said, if efforts required, effort
Speaker 1: will appear. If no effort is required, no effort will appear.
Speaker 1: And so there are different times in our spiritual quest,
Speaker 1: we might say, where there's perhaps intense effort for some people.
Speaker 1: But then there's a time where that effort is seen
Speaker 1: to be or at least we begin to realize that
Speaker 1: that effort is not actually helping, that it's just taking
Speaker 1: us further and further from the moment we're in, from
Speaker 1: the silence or the peace or the joy that's already
Speaker 1: here if we just stop long enough to notice what's
Speaker 1: already in in the true heart that we share. Um.
Speaker 1: So there's a time for both. And you know, you
Speaker 1: said what what might take the place of ambition in
Speaker 1: your earlier question, And I would say, perhaps it's intensity,
Speaker 1: the intensity of our desire for truth, or our desire
Speaker 1: to for whatever it is, whether for God, for um,
Speaker 1: the meaning of life or love or you know, whatever
Speaker 1: it is. That that really is the juice behind our
Speaker 1: spiritual search. Um. And sometimes the effort gets us to
Speaker 1: a certain place, um, and then we can't go any further.
Speaker 1: It doesn't take us further because the efforting of our
Speaker 1: egoing identified consciousness will only take us to the edge
Speaker 1: of the known, because it doesn't live in the unknown,
Speaker 1: and what we're seeking is basically unknown. So you know,
Speaker 1: we can use practices and types of meditation and you know,
Speaker 1: various things that we've been drawn to. We can use
Speaker 1: all those things, but realize that at some point, you know,
Speaker 1: they can only take us so far, and then we
Speaker 1: have to look look beyond, we have to look into
Speaker 1: the unknown. And it's it's at that point that a
Speaker 1: lot of seekers, you know, back up because the mind
Speaker 1: doesn't much look looking into the unknown. It gets scared.
Speaker 1: So you know, we may get to that edge many
Speaker 1: times um before we're willing or have the grace, because
Speaker 1: I think it all is grace. I mean, grace is
Speaker 1: here all the time. Basically, it's just like Rahma and
Speaker 1: mahas she says, it's it graces an ocean. It depends
Speaker 1: on the size of the container that you take. You know,
Speaker 1: if you only take a thimbleful of that ocean, that's
Speaker 1: that's what you'll experience. So our capacity to receive. Grace
Speaker 1: can change as this goes on. But you know, we're
Speaker 1: invited when we take that backward step, when we look
Speaker 1: more deeply into the question of who or what am I?
Speaker 1: Or what is life? What is true? You know, will
Speaker 1: come to a place where there's the not knowing and
Speaker 1: are we willing to stay put and just allow the
Speaker 1: silence to reveal whatever it wants to reveal. And then
Speaker 1: you know, at that point we've become so much more
Speaker 1: receptive that it's not a matter of efforting anymore. It's
Speaker 1: a matter of receiving. Yeah, this paradox sits right at
Speaker 1: the heart of my, for lack of a better word,
Speaker 1: spiritual life right now, because I've had a couple of
Speaker 1: different awakenings that were that were fairly intense, and they
Speaker 1: were the result of a strange combination of putting myself
Speaker 1: in a place where I am really putting forth effort,
Speaker 1: and by effort I mean devoting time, energy, money to
Speaker 1: go to places where I can be more quiet. And
Speaker 1: yet the moments themselves have come when in the midst
Speaker 1: of that there's this I don't know how to make
Speaker 1: it happen, letting go right uh completely, And so then
Speaker 1: what I wrestle with is I get back into the world,
Speaker 1: and it feels like there is more effort required to
Speaker 1: go and find the quiet and do all of that,
Speaker 1: and that it feels like sometimes in the world itself,
Speaker 1: when I let go of effort, it doesn't happen is
Speaker 1: quiet in silence and deepness. What happens is distraction, right,
Speaker 1: What happens is I suddenly become very interested in whatever
Speaker 1: the various interests I have in life, some of which
Speaker 1: are are are healthier than others. And the one that
Speaker 1: came to mind was guitar playing music, which is a
Speaker 1: wonderful thing in a lot of ways, but it's not
Speaker 1: headed in that same direction. And so I'm kind of
Speaker 1: in that like I don't know if I want to
Speaker 1: use the word stuck, because I don't I don't think
Speaker 1: that's quite the word. But I'm in a what feels
Speaker 1: like some sort of limbo state to me sometimes lately,
Speaker 1: I think that life is like that in the sense
Speaker 1: of expansion and contraction, and contraction not being a dirty word,
Speaker 1: not necessarily something that's wrong, or maybe a better way
Speaker 1: of saying it would be, you know, there's a realization
Speaker 1: there are these moments or glimpses of our true nature,
Speaker 1: and then there's this sense of how is that getting expressed?
Speaker 1: You know, because each of us is an expression of
Speaker 1: this mystery. From my perspective, you know, every single one
Speaker 1: of us is an expression, and it's you know, there's
Speaker 1: a creation in it. There's a creative process that's happening.
Speaker 1: So when you play guitar, if it's something that you love,
Speaker 1: do you know, then to me, that's an expression of
Speaker 1: the divine um in whatever ways. If we think that
Speaker 1: our spirituality has to only look a certain way, then
Speaker 1: we might be judging a human dimension of our lives
Speaker 1: in a way that's maybe not necessary. I'm going to
Speaker 1: read another line of yours because I wanted to discuss this,
Speaker 1: and you just let us right into it, or we
Speaker 1: let ourselves into it. If you're drawn to interior silence,
Speaker 1: this is your soul food. If you are drawn to music,
Speaker 1: this is your soul food. If you are drawn to service,
Speaker 1: this is your soul food. I'm not suggesting that everyone
Speaker 1: needs to be drawn to silence. I just ask if
Speaker 1: you could explore that a little bit more, because although
Speaker 1: I agree that these other things are soul food, in
Speaker 1: a way, they don't seem to, at least in what
Speaker 1: I've seen and again and and in my life, they
Speaker 1: don't seem to lead in the same way to what
Speaker 1: we would think of traditionally as an awakening. So I'm
Speaker 1: just kind of curious about your thoughts about is there
Speaker 1: a path for people who don't want to be silent
Speaker 1: but are interested in truth? What does that look like? Well,
Speaker 1: I think everyone will probably find a little bit of
Speaker 1: a different way. You know, if you're really interested in truth,
Speaker 1: then um, spending time in silence and stillness is incredibly useful,
Speaker 1: incredibly helpful. It doesn't have to look like I have
Speaker 1: to be on my cushion so many hours a day
Speaker 1: or whatever, but just even just many times in the day,
Speaker 1: we can just stop and be quiet and notice, is
Speaker 1: something already quiet before we try to be quiet? Is
Speaker 1: something already still? Is something already actually even at peace?
Speaker 1: When don't we just stop stop to notice? But sitting
Speaker 1: in silence with an intention of finding out what is true?
Speaker 1: What is real? Who am I? Whatever those existential questions
Speaker 1: might be for for any of us, And they have
Speaker 1: to be important, you know, if they're not using it,
Speaker 1: you know, and we're probably not going to continue. So
Speaker 1: the reason I wrote that as I did is that
Speaker 1: everything is an expression from my perspective of what we are.
Speaker 1: There's there's nobody, nothing that's happening that's out of the
Speaker 1: expression of fullness. That doesn't mean everything is coming completely
Speaker 1: directly from our deepest nature. Obviously, there's a lot of misunderstandings,
Speaker 1: innocent misunderstandings, ignorance about our unity and so forth in
Speaker 1: this world, as we all know. But you know, we're
Speaker 1: here to be ourselves, you know, because when we discover
Speaker 1: who or what that is, we see that that's what
Speaker 1: everything is and everyone, and so there isn't a sense
Speaker 1: of it should look a certain way. But I do
Speaker 1: think if you are interested, if one is interested in
Speaker 1: in truth, then then you'll put your attention just like
Speaker 1: you're saying you've been doing. You know, you spend time
Speaker 1: on retreats, or you've found a spiritual teacher that you
Speaker 1: resonate with or whatever, and and that seems to be
Speaker 1: kind of guiding you at this point, right, Yes, it is.
Speaker 1: I kind of wonder about back to your earlier question
Speaker 1: about enough desire lack of desire, you know, but but yes,
Speaker 1: in general, yes, obviously I am very focused on this
Speaker 1: in general because I do a show about it every week,
Speaker 1: and you know, so, yes, in general, right, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I guess that's safe to say. I do think that
Speaker 1: desire is not wrong. It's just let's discover what it
Speaker 1: is that our deepest desire is. Whenever I meet someone
Speaker 1: um for the first time, whether it's as a psychotherapist
Speaker 1: in the old days or now as a spiritual teacher,
Speaker 1: I will frequently ask what's the deepest desire of your heart?
Speaker 1: Because it's sort of as the rudder you know, that's
Speaker 1: guiding us whether we know it or not. And to
Speaker 1: become conscious of that, what is the deepest desire? You know,
Speaker 1: if it's to make a million dollars, well, go for it.
Speaker 1: But usually if one questions is that really your deepest desire?
Speaker 1: You know, then you know that they will find or
Speaker 1: we will find something that's deeper than that. It's like,
Speaker 1: what what do you think that will bring well and
Speaker 1: bring freedom, bring happiness or whatever it is we imagine, right,
Speaker 1: to really be willing to go through the levels of
Speaker 1: desire and discover what's really most important. You quote that
Speaker 1: idea that the problem, like you said, is not desire,
Speaker 1: it's the depth of your desire, or selling yourself short
Speaker 1: in your desire, in that you're not desiring enough. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's not quite the right word, but it's the best
Speaker 1: one I can use, right, Yeah, it wasn't a good
Speaker 1: is if I recall the quote that you're talking about,
Speaker 1: you know, he says, by all means, but increase and
Speaker 1: widen your desire, you know, to to have nothing but truth,
Speaker 1: you know, will fulfill it. Because what's wrong is that
Speaker 1: our desires are so so limited and limiting. They're going
Speaker 1: to arise if they arise. So part of coming I think,
Speaker 1: into a different relationship with ourselves is realizing that um,
Speaker 1: things are as they are. You know, what is is
Speaker 1: what is? Uh don't mean that what is of now
Speaker 1: is going to be what is the next moment? But
Speaker 1: if we can accept that this is actually here. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought, I I thought I wanted this. I had
Speaker 1: I had someone who came to see me some time
Speaker 1: ago and they really were interested in non duality and
Speaker 1: really wanting to work from that perspective, and so forth
Speaker 1: and so on. And we got about maybe three months
Speaker 1: into the therapy and he said, you know, I really
Speaker 1: don't want this, you know, I said, great, great, you know,
Speaker 1: we know what we need. You know, can you follow
Speaker 1: your own inner teacher, Can you follow your own inner
Speaker 1: guidance and go find what it is that you want
Speaker 1: If this isn't isn't it? So he left, you know,
Speaker 1: and I, you know, was my blessing was. And I go, oh,
Speaker 1: this is somebody who's resisting and I should keep them
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. I just have a deep faith
Speaker 1: in how life is moving. There's an intelligence that's that
Speaker 1: work in life, whether we notice it or not. But
Speaker 1: but you know, I gave him my blessing and he
Speaker 1: went off, and you know, about six months later he
Speaker 1: came back and he said, you know, I think I
Speaker 1: really do. You know? He needed to go find find
Speaker 1: that out in some other way and and and he
Speaker 1: you know, had to do openings and so forth since then.
Speaker 1: But part of it is is honoring our inner knowing,
Speaker 1: I think. And so many of us grew up thinking
Speaker 1: that we couldn't trust that, you know, or that it
Speaker 1: led us in the wrong place. And sometimes it seems
Speaker 1: to sometimes it sure does. Yeah, But but also our
Speaker 1: suffering brings us to you know, often brings us to
Speaker 1: our knees and to a place of surrender that would
Speaker 1: not have happened apparently without those difficult and challenging things.
Speaker 1: And I think that's completely true, and it rings true
Speaker 1: in my life, and that idea about knowing what you
Speaker 1: really want. I think one of the challenges that a
Speaker 1: lot of us face in this world. I do, I
Speaker 1: know a lot of people that I work with do,
Speaker 1: is that maybe that ultimate desire is to awaken to
Speaker 1: our true nature and to find, you know, peace and wholeness.
Speaker 1: And yet we go through a process of being misled
Speaker 1: about what's actually going to do that. Oh, this is
Speaker 1: what I want, and sometimes we you know, we get it,
Speaker 1: we don't know that's not it. Or at least for me,
Speaker 1: it's been this increasing refinement of what it is I'm
Speaker 1: really after and starting to see through the illusions of
Speaker 1: what doesn't do that. It sounds like it should be
Speaker 1: this linear process, and I think the overall trend for
Speaker 1: me is towards an increasing refinement. But you take a
Speaker 1: couple of steps forward, then you take a couple back,
Speaker 1: and then you know overall it's still moving in the
Speaker 1: right direction. But it's just not like one step after
Speaker 1: the other, it's like just straight there it's a more
Speaker 1: of a zigzagging path, at least for me, has been
Speaker 1: well for most for most people. I think that that
Speaker 1: is true, and and it's also a path that's fraught
Speaker 1: with failure. And ultimately, you know, waking up to our
Speaker 1: true nature is the is the failure maintaining separation. But
Speaker 1: but you know, some of us apparently need to do
Speaker 1: and be and go and experience whatever it is, you know,
Speaker 1: and then we're called back something like you were speaking
Speaker 1: of earlier, that I speak about in the book, this
Speaker 1: impulse that's quiet. It's not necessarily demanding, Hey look at me,
Speaker 1: look at me. You've got to figure out who you
Speaker 1: truly are. It just quietly calls us, and we have
Speaker 1: these experiences that I feel like they're pointing towards something
Speaker 1: that all of us have had, you know, like those
Speaker 1: moments where something vaster and freer and piece more peaceful
Speaker 1: than that our mind could ever be, show themselves, reveal themselves,
Speaker 1: and then we want more, and then you know, will
Speaker 1: leader's wherever it does. But I think it ultimately it
Speaker 1: goes back, and it's not a straight path necessarily, and
Speaker 1: yet it's always been what we are. It's like that
Speaker 1: very well worn, you know, analogy of the ocean and
Speaker 1: the waves. But you know, no matter what's happening on
Speaker 1: the surface of our mind, it's still is the ocean moving.
Speaker 1: It's still is the heart of awareness, the source, whatever
Speaker 1: name we're going to call it. You know, without that,
Speaker 1: we don't even know what our experience is. So it's
Speaker 1: feeding itself, all of these experiences that there's a current
Speaker 1: that's moving underneath the surfaces of things. And if you,
Speaker 1: if you're willing, if one is open and have the
Speaker 1: has the movement to really just keep diving down through experiences,
Speaker 1: and sometimes we have to live them out, but sometimes
Speaker 1: we don't. We can just you know, really really look
Speaker 1: deeply at what this experience is. Maybe it's a negative experience.
Speaker 1: What's underneath that, what's underneath that, what's underneath that you know,
Speaker 1: and you can't help if you go deep enough in
Speaker 1: any experience, you can't help but bump up against your
Speaker 1: true nature, because that's set the ground of everything. I
Speaker 1: want to read something else that you wrote that I
Speaker 1: think speaks a little bit to the conversation we're having
Speaker 1: about happiness and and what we think will make us happy.
Speaker 1: You say, when we do experience moments of happiness when
Speaker 1: a desire is fulfilled and the mind is content. We
Speaker 1: imagine these moments were caused by something outside of ourselves,
Speaker 1: But the reason we are temporarily happy has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with what just happened. We are temporarily happy because
Speaker 1: we temporarily stopped wishing to be someplace else. Our mind
Speaker 1: rested for one moment, stopped its craving and straining for
Speaker 1: one moment, and we simply experienced our natural state, the
Speaker 1: heart of awareness. Yes, and to realize that at some point,
Speaker 1: you know, whenever it is we do. You know, we
Speaker 1: can even pose the question, well, what would it be
Speaker 1: like if every moment, or more and more moments I
Speaker 1: wasn't trying to be in another different moment? What if
Speaker 1: I were actually able to just notice that there's something
Speaker 1: present to this one, you know, And that presence, we
Speaker 1: think is is our mind. Actually there's something that's present
Speaker 1: to the mind, that's moving. So we keep looking back
Speaker 1: in a deeper place or a more mysterious place that's
Speaker 1: present no matter what. And when we stop wanting to
Speaker 1: be someplace else, we're here. And that's what our true
Speaker 1: nature is. It's always here now it's it's here. It
Speaker 1: doesn't live in time, it's timeless, so it's it's always
Speaker 1: that kind of eternal now sense of being right here,
Speaker 1: right now for this. You know, my very simplistic meditation
Speaker 1: is simply being here or what's here, you know, because
Speaker 1: that is our true nature. It's here for what's here.
Speaker 1: And then when we're not trying to have a different moment,
Speaker 1: we often will be moved in ways that sometimes are
Speaker 1: unexpected or may be challenging if we have difficult things
Speaker 1: to face into. But nonetheless there's a movement that comes
Speaker 1: from a different source of strength and powering wisdom. You
Speaker 1: wrote in the book that you say someone wants asked
Speaker 1: me what did Adyashanti give you? And you answered nothing.
Speaker 1: He gave me nothing, and that was as greatest gift.
Speaker 1: Can you elaborate on that? But no thing, but no thaingness.
Speaker 1: If we we want to, we want to get something
Speaker 1: from this spiritual search, right we want to get something
Speaker 1: for the me. That's the ambition we were talking about
Speaker 1: early on, you know, and to realize that there's nothing
Speaker 1: there for the me because this process sees through, it
Speaker 1: sees the transparency of the me. In no way is
Speaker 1: judging or refusing these human expressions. In fact, there's a
Speaker 1: much greater understanding and com passion for them, even even
Speaker 1: expressions that we think of as as negative in ourselves
Speaker 1: are in the world. But um, you know, he doesn't
Speaker 1: give you, uh, here's six easy steps. You know. It's
Speaker 1: it's like really encouraging his students to find out for themselves.
Speaker 1: You know, he's an amazing teacher, but he doesn't spoon
Speaker 1: feed they At least it never happened in my experience
Speaker 1: with him. You know, it was more just an invitation
Speaker 1: by by where he was coming from to to meet
Speaker 1: him there. And that's that's the nothing we can really
Speaker 1: it's it's not nothing in the way the mind thinks
Speaker 1: of it. It's the emptiness. It's the openness. It's the
Speaker 1: ungrasped ability or the unspeakable nous of our true nature.
Speaker 1: We can't really define it because the mind can't go there,
Speaker 1: the mind of thought, you know, not big mind, but
Speaker 1: the mind of thought can't go there. And so once
Speaker 1: we I've been to that, you know, you realize there's
Speaker 1: no way that I could say what this is. And
Speaker 1: yet you know we feel it, we into it, we
Speaker 1: sense it. Um, but it's it's it's nothing that you
Speaker 1: can define something you said there resonates with me with
Speaker 1: audio Shanty two is also I think possibly the biggest
Speaker 1: teaching for me has been to truly examine my own experience,
Speaker 1: not what I've read in the books that should be happening,
Speaker 1: is to truly just try and stay with what is
Speaker 1: it like for me truly, And really that's an encouragement
Speaker 1: that has been really helpful for me, particularly as someone
Speaker 1: who has read I mean, I've read more spiritual books
Speaker 1: than It's just it's preposterous, right. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of us fall into that, and and so I've heard
Speaker 1: all this stuff. I know intellectually the right answers, right,
Speaker 1: but it's it's that I move away from my direct
Speaker 1: experience to those ideas, and I think, what, for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: it's not like he's the only person who has said that.
Speaker 1: There's something about the way he says that and has
Speaker 1: emphasized that that worked for me that got me to
Speaker 1: to stop to some degree and try and stay with
Speaker 1: my own experience, which is you know that comes and
Speaker 1: goes the ability to do that. And there's the other
Speaker 1: thing about him and for me is there is some
Speaker 1: mixture of deep kindness wisdom, and but there's also some
Speaker 1: fierceness to it, and that appeals to me in some
Speaker 1: way that it's it's not this soft thing which a
Speaker 1: lot of the language in this space can get to
Speaker 1: be that way, And there there's something to that that
Speaker 1: has drawn me towards him. Yeah, I think. I mean
Speaker 1: part of that, I think is the v in training
Speaker 1: as well. You know, there's a certain fierceness about that
Speaker 1: kind of training. He doesn't come off as fierce in
Speaker 1: that in any kind of punitive way. It's just it's
Speaker 1: a loving compassion that that sometimes you know, if one
Speaker 1: is familiar with Manjushi, the buddy fat Wisdom, you know,
Speaker 1: who carries a sword, there is a sword that cuts
Speaker 1: through illusion and and that can feel very challenging to
Speaker 1: our egoic mind, the mind of identified thought, do you know?
Speaker 1: And and so I think that, um, when truth is moving,
Speaker 1: it's not asking permission to should I say this? Should
Speaker 1: somebody like it? Should they not like? Do you know?
Speaker 1: It's just moving? And so you know, when when we're
Speaker 1: in a position of being the so called teacher, really
Speaker 1: realizing that you can't really teach what you are you,
Speaker 1: you can only point, you know, and encourage people to
Speaker 1: find out for themselves, which is what you were saying,
Speaker 1: is has been so helpful, and I think it is.
Speaker 1: It's when we want the truth more than we want
Speaker 1: life to look a certain way, the truth begins to
Speaker 1: reveal itself, and until then we're just always trying to
Speaker 1: have life look a certain way. Um. And so when
Speaker 1: we really get bitten by the bug, so to speak of,
Speaker 1: you know, really desiring what's true more than anything else,
Speaker 1: more than anything I've read, more than anything anyone's told
Speaker 1: me about, more than anything I think someone else might
Speaker 1: have experienced, I have to find out for myself. And
Speaker 1: that's that's a really important piece in the so called
Speaker 1: spiritual journey. It really is. It's it's become clear to
Speaker 1: me how important that is. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that drew me to Buddhism initially was that idea of
Speaker 1: don't believe what I say just because I say it.
Speaker 1: Try it out for yourself. That has been so helpful
Speaker 1: for me, because of my mind will start to say,
Speaker 1: but wait a minute, is that really true? Is that
Speaker 1: I don't know about that? And I can just go, well,
Speaker 1: this is an intellectual point to be debated. I just
Speaker 1: have to look and say is that true for me
Speaker 1: right now? And and here's what is what is true? Yes,
Speaker 1: because if if you know, if there's anything that truth
Speaker 1: as it's moving in the in the body mind organism,
Speaker 1: there's anything that I think shows it's there more than
Speaker 1: any thing else. It's authenticity, you know, it's it's here now, authentic, honest,
Speaker 1: you know, it isn't It isn't trying to put on
Speaker 1: a false face. And you know, our identified images of ourselves,
Speaker 1: we're always trying to do that, you know, be seen
Speaker 1: a certain way. But this is not like that. This
Speaker 1: doesn't have to it's not upholding any identity. It's not
Speaker 1: upholding an identity with the absolute. I am God, and
Speaker 1: I am the only thing that exists, and I am
Speaker 1: you know, it's or I'm just this poor little, helpless
Speaker 1: you know, human being. It doesn't have any power. You know,
Speaker 1: it's justn't identifying with anything, and it's not trying to
Speaker 1: um defend anything. That's an incredible strength. When we come
Speaker 1: into our own experience of perhaps when our defenses become
Speaker 1: more poorous or or or dropped all together, you know,
Speaker 1: it can feel vulnerable at first, you know, this is
Speaker 1: openness feels wonderful, and it's the vastness, you know, and
Speaker 1: all in all and all of that. But when openness
Speaker 1: starts moving in the body mind, it can feel vulnerable,
Speaker 1: especially at first because we're operating without so many you know,
Speaker 1: defenses and so so many masks. You know, we're moving
Speaker 1: from behind the mask in a more authentic way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say that mirrors my experience for sure. Well, Dorothy,
Speaker 1: we're near the end of our time here, and um,
Speaker 1: I really have enjoyed the conversation. Um again, your book
Speaker 1: is called Ending the Search from Spiritual Ambition to the
Speaker 1: Heart of Awareness. Will have links in the show notes
Speaker 1: to your website and all the ways that people can
Speaker 1: find you and your work, and you and I are
Speaker 1: going to have a conversation after this in the post show,
Speaker 1: and so listeners who want to be part of that
Speaker 1: and hear that if you go to one you feed
Speaker 1: dot net slash support and become a patron of the
Speaker 1: show at the ten dollar level, you get to hear
Speaker 1: all of the additional conversations as well as extra many
Speaker 1: episodes and all that. But Dorothy, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for taking the time I've enjoyed it. Well, it's my pleasure. Eric,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for having me. Okay, take care bye.
Speaker 1: If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
Speaker 1: consider making a donation to the One you Feed podcast
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