1 00:00:09,840 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: Hi guys, and welcome back to another new episode of 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: You Need Therapy Podcast. My name is Kat and I 3 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,799 Speaker 1: am especially excited that you are here today. Now, before 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: we get going, if you are new, just so you 5 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: are familiar, I am a licensed therapist and I own 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: my own practice in Nashville where I do therapy all 7 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: day long. But this podcast is not therapy, and I 8 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: just think it's important to remind us all that that 9 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: this is not a replacement, nor is it therapy, but 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,880 Speaker 1: it is a resource and a really helpful resource and 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: something that might help encourage you to start therapy if 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: that's something that you feel like you need so today, 13 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: woe or like wow, I think those are the words 14 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: that I would like to use to describe this episode. 15 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: Just get ready for a good conversation. You are going 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: to hear a conversation that I had with Justin Baldoni. 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: If you're unfamiliar with him, you are missing out on 18 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: so much. You might recognize him from playing Raphael on 19 00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: Jane the Virgin, However, that is not how I learned 20 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: about him. I learned about who he was when his 21 00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: book Man Enough was published. Now side note, I am 22 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: now for sure in the process of watching Jane the Virgin, 23 00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 1: and honestly, I'm obsessed with that show. It's so good. 24 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: But I found out about him when that book came 25 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,399 Speaker 1: out and I immediately got it and started listening to it, 26 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: and it was blowing my mind chapter after chapter, page 27 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: after page. And I've talked about that book a lot 28 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:38,399 Speaker 1: on this podcast in other episodes, and so I was like, 29 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,039 Speaker 1: I would love to talk to Justin and have a 30 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: conversation on the podcast. Justin has been seeking out vulnerable 31 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: and uncomfortable conversations with all kinds of humans for a 32 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,840 Speaker 1: couple of years now through his Instagram TV series, which 33 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: led to a viral ted talk which led to the 34 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: book Man Enough that I Am Obsessed with, which now 35 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: has led to the Man Enough pod cast, which I 36 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: highly recommend, and he started just a little while ago. 37 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: He describes himself as a student and not an expert, 38 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 1: but I am serious when I say this human has 39 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: really opened up my eyes and taught me so much 40 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:18,239 Speaker 1: through his work and through the conversations that he continues 41 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: to have with people all over the place. And he 42 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:24,079 Speaker 1: isn't afraid to say the hard stuff. And I'm someone 43 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:26,560 Speaker 1: who is learning not to be afraid to hear the 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 1: hard stuff. So I hope you enjoy this episode. I 45 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 1: hope that you are open to hearing whatever is that 46 00:02:33,120 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: you need to hear in this dialogue today. And before 47 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: we get into it, maybe just take like a big 48 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: deep breath because there's a lot of stuff that might 49 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: be bumping up as you start to listen to some 50 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: of the truths that Justin lays out for us. So 51 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: big deep breath, let it out. You might want to 52 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: keep doing that throughout the episode. And uh, let's go Okay, 53 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: So let's start with this question. So reading the book 54 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: and then also listening to your podcast and also your 55 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: Ted talk that was I think did that kind of 56 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: spearhead all of this. Yeah, I started shooting the Men 57 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: and of TV digital series and then I did the 58 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:16,359 Speaker 1: Ted Talk. But the Ted Talk really is what kind 59 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: of took everything off and took off and inspired me 60 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: to go deeper. So a lot of what you are 61 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: talking about is talking about masculinity, the way the world 62 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: set up in our culture and a lot of the 63 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 1: issues with it. But at the same time, the way 64 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 1: that our culture is set up around just like men 65 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 1: in patriarchy and a lot of that benefits you in 66 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. So I want to hear what 67 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: has been like for you to kind of break some 68 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 1: of that down, especially because I think depending on who 69 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: you are and where you are in your life, there's 70 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: probably people that are like, don't mess this up for us. 71 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: You know, there's probably some men that are like, well, 72 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 1: this is working for us because if we have our 73 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: horse blinders on, we don't have to pay attention to 74 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that you're exposing. So what has 75 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: that us has been like for you? It's a great question, 76 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:08,120 Speaker 1: not easy or fun or comfortable. But before you even 77 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: get into that, the idea of there's like a lot 78 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: of men that would say, don't mess this up for 79 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: us is I think part of the issue in that 80 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: men aren't saying that because most men don't think they're 81 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: at an advantage. So it's could be controversial, But I 82 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: just believe in the goodness of men, and I don't 83 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 1: believe that men are out there thinking that this world 84 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 1: benefits me. I'm at an advantage and therefore I want 85 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: to keep my power because that would be assuming that 86 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 1: most men are not good men and their power hungry 87 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: and they want to stay dominant. I honestly believe, especially 88 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: the men who are kind of antiist movement of equality 89 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: or keep Men Strong and all this type of stuff, 90 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: I honestly believe those men have the most fear and 91 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: that they they are looking at their lives and saying, 92 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 1: my life is freaking hard. I'm hurting, I'm struggling. Works 93 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: not going great, you know, trying to make it this 94 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: work with my wife, I'm working too much. I don't 95 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: get to see my kids. Like I think. I think 96 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: that men are like, this isn't working for me. Don't 97 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 1: tell me I'm at a disadvantage, or don't don't tell 98 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: me I'm at an advantage. Don't tell me that I 99 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: had privilege. I think that that's where it comes from. 100 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: I don't think it's like I have all this power. 101 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: This world benefits me, and therefore like I this guy, 102 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 1: and stop talking about gender equality, because what we know 103 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,799 Speaker 1: about privileges that for folks with privilege, equality can feel 104 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: like oppression, right, Martin Luther King. So in terms of 105 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: just this movement itself and like equality, I think the 106 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 1: issue is that, yes, as a man, I have privileges 107 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: from birth, especially as a white straight man, that women 108 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: don't have the black men don't have, right, gay men 109 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 1: or trans or gender not conforming folks don't have. But 110 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,680 Speaker 1: I was not taught to recognize that privilege as a man. 111 00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: I was just brought up in this society and told 112 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:58,600 Speaker 1: this is how it goes, and this is how it works, 113 00:05:58,600 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: and this is what you have to do if you 114 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:03,880 Speaker 1: want to succeed or win. And the problem with having 115 00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: that type of privilege in the patriarchal society is that 116 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: I am not allowed to hurt. So, while yes, there's 117 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: tremendous benefits to being a man, as an example, I 118 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: don't have to worry about being sexually assaulted or raped 119 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: when I walk down the street. Right, I in general 120 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: know that just from being born and if I have 121 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: an education, I'll make more money than women. Right, there's 122 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: innate privileges that come with it. But what doesn't come 123 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: with it is the space to hurt and to be 124 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,800 Speaker 1: in distress and to be depressed and to be confused 125 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,039 Speaker 1: and to be and to have anxiety and to be 126 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:41,359 Speaker 1: a human being in our culture. So there's like, there's 127 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 1: clear benefits, but I actually believe that while it's benefiting me, 128 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: it's actually hurting me more than it's helping me because 129 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 1: all of the benefits I'm getting from the patriarchy, or 130 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: material benefits, the emotional tax that I have to pay 131 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 1: for that I believe is far higher than the benefits, 132 00:06:59,720 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: which is why I'm doing this work. This is why, Yeah, 133 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: I didn't sets out reluctantly, which is why I ended 134 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: up writing the book reluctantly, because I know that by 135 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 1: coming out and challenging this system and by saying this 136 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: isn't working for anybody, there are never going to be 137 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: men who don't recognize that they are even hurting, who 138 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: don't recognize that they have an eight privilege, who are 139 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: going to then use what they have been taught the 140 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 1: power dynamic of the patriarchy, to attack me and bring 141 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: me down and make me feel less than that's, of course, 142 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: the reluctance to doing this type of work. Did that 143 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: answer your question a little bit? That more than answers 144 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: my question. Everything you said was both it's hard. I 145 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: think part of it's like hard for me to hear 146 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: that because that was my thoughts and my bias in 147 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,840 Speaker 1: my own mind coming through asking that question. One, because 148 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: I'm not a guy and I'm not a man, and 149 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: it's making me think about the difference between as a therapist, 150 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: I work primarily with women, not has. That's what I 151 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 1: ask to work with because the majority of people going 152 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:09,240 Speaker 1: to therapy are women. And another thing is my specialty 153 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: is eating disorders and body image. Yeah. So the other 154 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 1: thing about that is I have a caseload of I 155 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: probably have forty people in my caseload. I think there's 156 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 1: three guys. Of those three guys, none of them are 157 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: talking about body image or eating or anything like that. 158 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: And it's also not because men don't have that problem. 159 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: It's because men aren't talking about that as much. Which 160 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: to go back to the chapter that I'm rereading, it's 161 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: your Body Image one. That's a really deep chapter. It's 162 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: so good. But I think everything you're saying is talking 163 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:45,280 Speaker 1: about that. You're right, it's not working because to me, 164 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:49,319 Speaker 1: I wish that everybody felt the same amount of invitation 165 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: to go feel their stuff and work on their stuff 166 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: and be vulnerable and talk to somebody about hard things 167 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: and be honest. And what you're saying is like men 168 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,320 Speaker 1: don't feel that. In the ptation, this isn't working for us, 169 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: and so yeah, maybe we we do make more money 170 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: or we have this or we have that, but the 171 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: real meat of what life is about, we don't have 172 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: as much space in that realm. No, there's no space. 173 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: And it makes this makes perfect sense. There's very few 174 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 1: men in your practice, especially as it relates to eating disorders, 175 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: because what we've done is we've disguised eating disorders as 176 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 1: a as a sign of masculinity. Like if you look 177 00:09:31,000 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 1: at how we as men are told we should look 178 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: when our body should look like, you really can't get 179 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: there unless you have some form of an eating disorder, right, 180 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,240 Speaker 1: And we even disguised, like I know a ton of 181 00:09:44,280 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: men with eating disorders that just say that they're fasting. 182 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 1: Oh you know, look at our diets, look at the 183 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: way we're look at the way we're eating, and the 184 00:09:51,160 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 1: way that we are tracking calories and all of these 185 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: types of things. That's not a healthy, sustainable way of life. 186 00:09:57,160 --> 00:09:59,079 Speaker 1: Which is why I talk in the book about the wiladder. 187 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,360 Speaker 1: When you're doing it for a specific outcome, and that 188 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,280 Speaker 1: and that outcome isn't your job or truly related to 189 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 1: your happiness. There's an underlying issue there that you're not 190 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,079 Speaker 1: actually dealing with. And yet you know, we follow Instagram 191 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: influencers and all these diet coaches and all these types 192 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: of things. In reality, like I know a lot of 193 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: these guys that are really unhappy. They are they need therapy, 194 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 1: and they repress it and they push it down, and 195 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 1: they they weigh and they measure every tiny thing that 196 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,319 Speaker 1: they eat, and they obsess over their food and uh, 197 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:31,199 Speaker 1: if they have a bad meal, they'll fast for twenty 198 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,600 Speaker 1: four hours. Like this is all very normalized types of things, 199 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: but we've normalized it because it's a it's a sign 200 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: of masculinity, it's a sign of an attractive body, when 201 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:42,680 Speaker 1: in reality, there's a very high chance probability that there's 202 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: some eating disorder stuff happening there. And on top of that, 203 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: we have image disorders and body disorder like body dysmorphia, 204 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: muscless morphia, all these types of things that so many 205 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:53,680 Speaker 1: of us men have. But we've just chalked that up 206 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: to being men. This is just a part of it, 207 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: um and we're not actually talking about it. And also, finally, 208 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,439 Speaker 1: as it relates to like the idea that no men 209 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: in therapy or in your practice, women have had to 210 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 1: lean on each other and build community to cope. I 211 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: believe with the stress and tax of what it means 212 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 1: to be a woman in society. Women have had to 213 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: be there for each other because men can't be there 214 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:21,320 Speaker 1: for each other. And therefore, in addition to all the 215 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: bullshit that women have to put up with on a 216 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: daily basis from men, men also then put women in 217 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: a place where they have to be their therapists and 218 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 1: confide in them. So not only are women holding all 219 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: of the female things that happened to them on a 220 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,679 Speaker 1: daily basis, the microaggressions, the fear of sexual assault or rape, 221 00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: and the stress of trying to raise a family and 222 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: be mothers and be prevented and get and and basically 223 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: give herself to everybody, she now has to also hold 224 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: the weight of her man because her man can't talk 225 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: to men or anybody else because it's so unmanly and unmasculine, 226 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: and the only place a woman can go is other women. 227 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: So so therefore community was built, which is why, like, 228 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:02,599 Speaker 1: I know, you know so many women who on like 229 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: you know, they see they see another woman and boom, 230 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 1: it's how are you? What's happening? You're like tell me 231 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: are you okay? And men are just like let's just 232 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 1: avoid that conversation forever. Let's just watch the game, drink 233 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: of beard, and whatever it is. Here's my question for you. 234 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: What happens when a guy does do that? Like what 235 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: happens when a guy goes over to somebody's house and 236 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 1: maybe they're you're going to watch a game and you're like, hey, 237 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: before we put the game on. I don't know, men 238 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: do this? Like how men don't do that? The problem 239 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: is is that from a very early age, I don't 240 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:37,520 Speaker 1: want to say all men, but a vast majority of 241 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: men from my research and both in my researcher, both 242 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: in my personal life and also actual research, are taught 243 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: that that's not a safe thing to do. And that 244 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: happens because early on, when we're kids, when we're in 245 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:56,480 Speaker 1: situations that would require vulnerability, or when our bodies are changing, 246 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: or when if something happens, oftentimes the thing that happens 247 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 1: turns into shaming and like public shaming and making fun 248 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: of and humiliation, And what we're taught then is that 249 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 1: men are not safe spaces that if I'm going to 250 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: as an example, like you know, who knows pissing my 251 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 1: pants or something as as a kid or p in 252 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: the p in the bed and I'm having to sleep over. 253 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: Then those boys will go tell other boys and I'll 254 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: get made fun of at school. So the vulnerability thing, right, 255 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: the thing that I'm struggling with as a kid, will 256 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 1: then be used against me. Why because as boys were 257 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 1: taught that we have to one up each other in 258 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: order to gain power and popularity. Right, So the latter 259 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: of achieving that this mythical alpha status, even as a 260 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: young boy, is using other people, put putting other boys 261 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: down to build yourself up. That's the that's this mirage 262 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: of the patriarchy. That's how it's that's what it's built on. 263 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: It's this one upmanship. And so God knows whether you're like, 264 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: you know the kid that shat on the bus, you know, 265 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: had an accident when he was seven. Well we know 266 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: that boys take that and keep calling that kid that 267 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: name until their seniors in high school. Wherever you getting 268 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: labeled these things. I remember I remember being what was 269 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: that maybe eleven, eleven or twelve or something, and my 270 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: body was changing like all the other kids, and I 271 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 1: was getting these like you know, the wind could blow 272 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:25,120 Speaker 1: and I would get an erection. This is what happens 273 00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: to young boys. Nobody talks to us about it. Our 274 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: parents don't talk to us about it. We don't learn 275 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: about it in school, we don't learn how to deal 276 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: with it. So suddenly there's just shame around it, and 277 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: our bodies are changing their shame around it. We haven't 278 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: discovered sex yet. By eleven or twelve, I had actually 279 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: already been introduced to porn, although my body hadn't hadn't 280 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: really started changing so much yet that I was able 281 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 1: to use it to like masturbate or things like that. 282 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: But we're exposed to these things at a young age. 283 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: And I remember being with another guy and no thought, 284 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: no anything, My body is just like I just got 285 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: an direction. And I remember tucking it into my pants 286 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: and making a joke about it because he's another boy 287 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:03,560 Speaker 1: and he's going through puberty, and I'm like, oh, he'll 288 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: get it. And instead he went to school and started 289 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 1: a rumor that I touched myself around him, and I 290 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,080 Speaker 1: didn't know what happened, and all of a sudden, everybody 291 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,640 Speaker 1: was laughing at me when I got off the bus 292 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 1: the next day, and this was my good friend, and 293 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: I was like, what's happening? And people were and girls 294 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: were laughing and guys laughing, and they were calling me names. 295 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: And luckily I had so many friends that were girls. 296 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: I said, what's going on in a girl whispered to 297 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: me and they said, he said that you were catching 298 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: yourself in front of him. And I was mortified because 299 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't. I literally was adjusting my eleven year old direction. 300 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: And and here was this boy who knew that if 301 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: he went to school the next day and made fun 302 00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: of me, that everybody would view him as more powerful 303 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,160 Speaker 1: or popular or whatever it is. So at eleven years old, 304 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: I knew, boom, men are not safe. Boys are not safe. 305 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: Girls are safe, and that's what we do. So that's 306 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: in us and every man has their own version of that, 307 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:59,720 Speaker 1: their own experience, but that happens over and over and 308 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 1: over and over again in our lives. So so much 309 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: was just brought up in that I'm sitting here thinking about, like, so, 310 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: then what do we do? Because you're bringing back a 311 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: memory for me of working in a treatment center. I 312 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: worked in the eating disorder program, but there's tons of 313 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: different programs here. I worked with women, but I was 314 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: I started a men's body image group because I was like, 315 00:16:20,560 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: I think people might want to come and little by little, 316 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,120 Speaker 1: one guy came, and the next week, three guys came 317 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: in the next week finally there's like ten twelve guys, 318 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: which was a CAP. And one of the guys said 319 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 1: to me one day because I was like, do you 320 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 1: guys like want to come here? Like we want me 321 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 1: to keep doing this? And he was like, Cat, this 322 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 1: is the group and these people are in its residential treatment, 323 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: so they're in groups and therapy all day long, all 324 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: week long. He said, I look forward to this group 325 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: every week now. It is the group that I feel 326 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: the most safe. And I don't necessarily know that that 327 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: was because there's a female running. It could have had 328 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: something to do with that. But I think the other 329 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: thing is the group was created to talk about things 330 00:16:57,200 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: that weren't talked about in their house, in their in 331 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: their pro graham it was like the women's issue. So 332 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 1: that memory just got brought up from me as you're talking, 333 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: because they could have been talking about that in their groups. 334 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: They could have been talking about body image in their group, 335 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: but obviously they didn't feel safe to do that because 336 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: somebody would have made fun of them, I'm sure, or 337 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: made a joke or said something or looked at them weird, 338 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: and in that group, nobody was doing that because everybody 339 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 1: had the same shared issue. So, long winded way, what 340 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: are we supposed to do to help men feel safe 341 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,879 Speaker 1: with other men so then the women aren't exhausted and 342 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:30,360 Speaker 1: the men actually can get their needs met. There's two 343 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: things that I can think of. One of them actually 344 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 1: is an unfortunately comes back to women, because women are 345 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:41,560 Speaker 1: not immune from from the shaming response either. It's really tricky. 346 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: So you know, Bell Hooks says, sure, you read writes 347 00:17:44,440 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 1: about female misogyny, and I don't believe it's intentional. I'm 348 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 1: sure there are some women that are absolutely misogynistic because 349 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons, right, But it's very surprising 350 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: how many quote unquote woke women actually have a lot 351 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: of their own internal misogyny. And that looks like is 352 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: I think a combination a lot of things. One is, 353 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,640 Speaker 1: we've all been raised the same way men and women 354 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: have been socialized in the same way. Women have been 355 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: socialized to view men in the same way that men 356 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: have been socialized to view men, and to be themselves. 357 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: So there is a part of many women while they 358 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: desire I believe vulnerability in a man there's a part 359 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,720 Speaker 1: of them that has been trained to be disgusted by it. Well, yeah, 360 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: it's like in my head, I just thought, like be vulnerable, 361 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: but like not too much. And that's like I want, 362 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: I want my partner to cry, but I don't want 363 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,159 Speaker 1: him to be like too whiny and so and what 364 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: is that line? Right? And that's a really tricky thing. 365 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: Glenn and Doyle writes about this and untamed the responsibility 366 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 1: that women have here and really this is a woman's conversation. 367 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: I can't have the conversation for women. What I can 368 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 1: what I can tell women who are listening, assuming that 369 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: most of your listeners are women, is that be very 370 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: mindful of the moment a man opens up to you 371 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: and your reaction, because your reaction will train him whether 372 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: or not it's safe for him to open up. Because 373 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: if he can't open up with men and he does 374 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 1: finally open up with a woman and the woman loses 375 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: attraction or tells him to man up, which has happened 376 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: many times, you're creating a situation where a man literally 377 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 1: has nowhere to go. Now. I'm not pro men, as 378 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: I said earlier, putting their ship on women, but we 379 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: have to start somewhere, and there's nowhere for us to go. 380 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: The idea of going to a therapist is like climbing 381 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 1: Mount Everest for many men who have never trained, like, 382 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,560 Speaker 1: it's not going up and hiking your local mountain, it's 383 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:42,720 Speaker 1: jumping right into Mount Everest, talking to another dude, calling 384 00:19:42,720 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 1: another guy, and be like, hey man, I'm struggling. That 385 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: does not exist in our vocabulary, which is why so 386 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,760 Speaker 1: many of us men go to women and have made 387 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: women are therapists. The difference is how can women hold 388 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: some of that without allowing that boundary to be crossed 389 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,760 Speaker 1: so that they don't become the therapy best and what 390 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: ends up happening? As I've had, I can't even tell 391 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:05,760 Speaker 1: you how many messages I have from men who have 392 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: watched the Ted Talker read the book now, and I've 393 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: opened up to women and had and the women have 394 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: rejected them. It just it happens all the time, and 395 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: it's not even the woman's fault, because the woman has 396 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,879 Speaker 1: been told this part of a man, if they do this, 397 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: the guy's a pussy. That guys are this, That guy's 398 00:20:20,760 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 1: he's weak and he and then what what what do 399 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:24,880 Speaker 1: we tell women that a weak man can't protect them. 400 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 1: Why because women need to be protected from who from men? Uh? 401 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: So it goes back to it's it's it's like, I 402 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: have so much empathy and compassion especially for women here 403 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 1: because it's not your fault. You need a strong man 404 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: to protect you from other men. So the idea of vulnerability, 405 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: when it comes into the equation, it makes women feel 406 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: unsafe in this strange way. And and so what I 407 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: would ask is like, read bell Hooks, read Glenn and 408 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: Doyle's book, Read read Untamed about especially her chapter I 409 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: think it's boys when she talks about it. See if 410 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,080 Speaker 1: you can push past that initial response and hold it 411 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,480 Speaker 1: for for a moment, and then let's like not train 412 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: our men like the Pavlov style to run away from vulnerability. 413 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,520 Speaker 1: The second piece of this is it's not just to 414 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 1: snap your fingers and men can create safe spaces for men. 415 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:16,439 Speaker 1: But the only way it will start to work is 416 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: if there are super badass strong men who are willing 417 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,240 Speaker 1: to start to be vulnerable. Which is why I personally 418 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 1: believe if we were to like flip the idea of 419 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: these masculine traits on their head, you'd find that the 420 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: gravest man sure like great, you trained, you go, you 421 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 1: run into a burning building and save people's lives, awesome, 422 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 1: But can you run into the burning building of your 423 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 1: depression and share that with another man? I would argue 424 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: that the emotional bravery is true bravery. You're you're talking 425 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: about something that burn A Brown used to talk a 426 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: lot about in the beginning of Her Stuff Too. Is 427 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: the difference between bravery and courage, and bravery being the 428 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: kind of person who will run into a burning building, 429 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: and courage is the kind of person who will show 430 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 1: up with their whole heart. That's what you're talking about. 431 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's really important because I mean, I'm 432 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: that last part you said about like women need men 433 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: to be manly and masculine and strong and and all 434 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:17,680 Speaker 1: of that because we need men to protect the whole 435 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 1: cycles like we need those men to protect us, but 436 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: we need those men to protect us because of the 437 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:25,960 Speaker 1: whole thing. And the first yes, it's wild to me. 438 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 1: Which also, this is one of my favorite quotes that 439 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 1: I've pulled from your book. And I might not say 440 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: exactly correct, but you said something okay, great, so um. 441 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 1: It was in the Body Image chapter. It was my 442 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: favorite chapter so far. But you said something like looking 443 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: strong is in a way to be strong, but a 444 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: way to avoid being weak. And I think that that's 445 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: kind of what you're talking right here. Like the person 446 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,239 Speaker 1: that runs into a burning building to save somebody, that 447 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: person looks really freaking strong, and maybe they are in 448 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 1: some aspect, but like, what are are you doing that 449 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: to look like a man because you feel like you 450 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: have to because of X, Y Z or are or 451 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: why are you even doing that? And then in your 452 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: life and your relationship, in your job and what your whatever, 453 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: are you able to show up? Are you able to 454 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: run into the burning building of the conflict that you 455 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 1: guys have exactly? And and let's just be mindful of course, 456 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,879 Speaker 1: because firefighters and you know, police officers, you know of 457 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: military folks, that is extreme bravery. It is and I 458 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: don't want to say like one is more important than 459 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 1: the other. But what you find oftentimes is is, uh, 460 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: these professions or professions and their high risk professions. But 461 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: we've been taught as men and boys at a young 462 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: age that those are the professions that equate to a 463 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: certain masculine status, like those are the heroes, right, So 464 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:52,920 Speaker 1: there's always this I think unmet need wanting to grow 465 00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: up and be and be seen as that we're told 466 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: to take physical risks. It hurts us and it kills 467 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: It kills us, and it also is the thing that 468 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: makes us brave because the young boys were taught you're 469 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,959 Speaker 1: a boy, you're a man, physical risks. Take them, so 470 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: you grow up and you become these these these professions, 471 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: these for you know, responders, these heroes. But and we 472 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: also do that in our personal life. Is what you're saying, 473 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: and that cycle of like training men that this is 474 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: what it's this is what it means for you to 475 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: be a man, this is this is the type of 476 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,159 Speaker 1: job this is. You know, it's like we have freaking 477 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: calendars of firefighters because women like google at them because 478 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 1: they're sexy and uniform and they risk their lives and 479 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: all these things. But like are they talking about their feelings? 480 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: Are they depressed? Are they what therapist office are they in? 481 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: You know, look a there's just there's so much repressed 482 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: anxiety and fear and frustration that so many of us 483 00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,479 Speaker 1: men are walking around with that we don't have an 484 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: outlet for so so it goes into our work. It 485 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: ends up as a work addiction. It goes into us 486 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: taking more physical risks and we don't have any place 487 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: to put it, and you're helping of end that cycle. 488 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 1: So I do want to say thank you because I 489 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: think that when you were saying, like, we actually do 490 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,640 Speaker 1: need strong men that are willing to take the risk 491 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: to do this, to show up because somebody has to start, 492 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 1: like somebody has to start. And that brings me to 493 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:12,919 Speaker 1: my very favorite quote of all time, and it's a 494 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: Margaret me quote, and she said, never doubt that a 495 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: small group of committed citizens can change the world. In fact, 496 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: it's the only thing that ever has. And that's one 497 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:22,640 Speaker 1: of the reasons I was like, I need to talk 498 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: to you because literally what you're doing, like you're starting 499 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: with these conversations on Instagram and then a Ted talk 500 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: and then you're writing this book and it started with 501 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: a lot of what I'm hearing, a lot of women 502 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 1: actually leaning into the work you're doing. And then from 503 00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: that then men are actually being invited in. And so 504 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,479 Speaker 1: you start your one person who has started kind of 505 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,919 Speaker 1: like a huge shift, and I don't know if it 506 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: feels huge to you, but it's huge, Like it really is. 507 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: Appreciate it. It's ah, I don't know. I I always 508 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: try to go back to the one person, the one man, 509 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 1: And every day I'm getting a few of these one 510 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: men who are writing saying something or saying that it 511 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 1: shifts something, you know, And I get to keep having 512 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: these moments every day where it's like it is working, 513 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: it is helping, it is making a difference. Our society 514 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: focuses so much on mass change, like mass impact, how 515 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: many people. It's like, we grow up right now, it's like, 516 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 1: not enough to affect one person, you have to affect 517 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: millions or what are you doing with your life? And 518 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: that's not at all especially being raised in by faith, 519 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: it's not at all our view. It got it's all 520 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: back to how to be a humble servant and affect 521 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,280 Speaker 1: that one person. So even in this world where yeah, 522 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: I have millions of followers and all of these types 523 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: of things, it's about the one man because that one 524 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: man at any given point in time is interacting with 525 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 1: how many women in a daily basis, how many other men? 526 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: How many you know? Does he have children? This is 527 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: how we change the world. You have to do that, 528 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: you have to so so it's very it's very tricky, 529 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:51,640 Speaker 1: it's confusing. I still struggle with it. It's still hard 530 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: for me to reach out to other men because then 531 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: when you get to a point where you're known as 532 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: that kind of person, you're like, shit, you know all 533 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: these men look up to me. Now, even in my 534 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: group of friends, It's like, how do I tell them 535 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 1: that I'm struggling with this while I'm doing all of 536 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:08,800 Speaker 1: these things, you know, because we're never immune to it. 537 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 1: That's why I wrote the book as a student, as 538 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,200 Speaker 1: a teacher. So it's all in us. It's it's it's 539 00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 1: my socialization is in me. So I could be writing 540 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:18,920 Speaker 1: a book and giving ted talks and talking about these 541 00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,719 Speaker 1: things and yet still struggling to call my friend if 542 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: I'm struggling with something, and that's that's just being human. 543 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: Like we don't just reach the other side. It's a 544 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: constant daily practice. You're talking to a therapist who goes 545 00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: to therapy, so I get the best therapist? Should I agree? 546 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 1: But I get I that All that you're saying is like, yeah, 547 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: I struggle every day with stuff, and I have to 548 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 1: go get myself checked out, and I have to make 549 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,399 Speaker 1: sure that I'm like staying in line with what my 550 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,199 Speaker 1: beliefs are and I have to make sure that I 551 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:49,080 Speaker 1: am getting help and feedback because as somebody who, like 552 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: you're in a helping profession. Now, as somebody who's helping others, 553 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: you've got to check yourself. So I just wanted to 554 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: wrap all this up once say thank you for all 555 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: of what you're doing. I will promise at one point 556 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: I will finish the book, but I really don't want to. Well, 557 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: but the good news is if I don't, you now 558 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,359 Speaker 1: have a podcast, which is awesome. I listened to um, 559 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:12,960 Speaker 1: Matthew McConaughey's episode this morning while I was getting ready, 560 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: so that was really really interesting and good. Yeah, but 561 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: so many of those episodes have been awesome. So if 562 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: you guys that are listening are hearing something, you're like, 563 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: I need more of this, Like you've already heard me 564 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: talk about his book, But go get the book and 565 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: listen to the Man Enough podcast. And where else can 566 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: they find and hear you? Social media the love hate 567 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: relationship if I had with it, But yeah, social media, 568 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 1: But I think the Man Of podcast is a great 569 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: It is a great place right now you're gonna love 570 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: this is a therapist. I just had a deep conversation 571 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,200 Speaker 1: with my dad. Oh, well, just so you know, I 572 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: already listened to it. I listened to it last week. 573 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: I think when it came I don't know if it 574 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: was when it came out. I listened to on a 575 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,239 Speaker 1: road trip. It was last week. Yeah, And we're just 576 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: we're trying to go there. My wife's coming on, my wife. 577 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: We just had my wife and she's coming on next week. 578 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,479 Speaker 1: We have some amazing, amazing folks. The conversation you had 579 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: with your dad was honest, like it was good, and 580 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 1: what you have done is modeled because I think a 581 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: lot of people, especially when I'm in therapy with them, 582 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: I'm like, we're talking about how to have some of 583 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: those conversations that you had, and it's so like people 584 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: can't even imagine it. What do you mean? I'm gonna 585 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: be honest with my dad and tell him how he 586 00:29:15,600 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 1: hurt me, but also to say thank you, like what 587 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: do you mean? And you're giving like an example of 588 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: what that can look like. And I think that's awesome. 589 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,239 Speaker 1: We need examples right now, and we just unfortunately have 590 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,440 Speaker 1: so few of them. I don't do it perfectly. I 591 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,959 Speaker 1: mean there's times on this podcast where I'm learning and 592 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: I and it's uncomfortable and I make mistakes and Liz 593 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: calls me on it. You know, I have a female 594 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: co host, And that's part of this process is we 595 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,480 Speaker 1: have to be willing to make mistakes. And men don't 596 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: like making mistakes, especially publicly, or admitting we don't know 597 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: the answer. And a huge part of this why I'm 598 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: doing it, is just to show that, like we can 599 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: stay in the room. Like you can be told you're wrong, 600 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: and you could be told you our sexist or chauvinistic, 601 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: and it doesn't mean that you're a bad person, doesn't 602 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 1: mean that you're all bad. Yeah, that part. We can 603 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: stay in the room. What you just said, Like, we 604 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,040 Speaker 1: can mess up and be almost called out to an 605 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: extent or approached or confronted, and we can still be 606 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: good people. Like we can stay in the room. It's 607 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,200 Speaker 1: just canceled. You're not just it's not just over for 608 00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: you because you're could you make a mistake, it's oh, shoot, 609 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 1: I made a mistake. I didn't think of it that way. 610 00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Boom. It's amazing, right that we can be 611 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: human beings and be messy and messed up and and 612 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 1: still have the opportunity to be friends or care. So 613 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: that's that's what we're working on. And and I'm you know, 614 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,080 Speaker 1: I'm grateful for folks like you that are doing this work, 615 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: that are trying to get the message out. And if 616 00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: you're a man listening to this, just know that. Or 617 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: if you're a woman listening to this and you want 618 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 1: your man to listen to this, and now you're a 619 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: man listening to this, just know that you have an 620 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: ocean of depth in you and you are so much 621 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: more than what the world has put on you. And 622 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: the feelings and thoughts and dream and sensitivities you have 623 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: don't make you less of a man. They make you 624 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: more of a man because they make you a human. 625 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, our job as men, 626 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: I believe, is to figure out how to be the 627 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: best human beings we possibly can. And that starts with 628 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: like using these ideas of what it means to be manly, 629 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: to be masculine, and going in and going deep and 630 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 1: getting comfortable and the uncomfortable, and exploring who we are 631 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: as individuals and showing up and staying in the room. 632 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: And I appreciate you listening. Okay, that was beautiful. So 633 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: if you are anybody listening to that, rewind that and 634 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: listen to it again. That was amazing. So we're going 635 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: to end on that because that was a good way 636 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: to kind of close it out. So thank you for 637 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 1: being here, and yeah, everybody listening, you can follow us 638 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,040 Speaker 1: at at You Need Therapy podcast, get the book, listen 639 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: to the podcast. Man Enough Man Enough podcast, and thank 640 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: you for being Thank you. We all need therapy.