WEBVTT - #313 Jason Flom with Antwaun Cubie 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.320 In the spring of nineteen ninety six, Antoine Qby, a 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:09.000 rising basketball start from the sumburbs of Chicago, had a 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:12.200 bright future with offers to play college ball as well 0:00:12.200 --> 0:00:14.400 as professional basketball abroad. 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:16.640 One night, his friend Jeremy. 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:18.319 Bruder asked him to accompany him to a part of 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:20.680 town that Antoine knew well for a hookup on some 0:00:20.800 --> 0:00:25.279 new tires and rims. Antoine's friend's younger brother, Kevin Jackson, 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:27.480 asked if he could tag along and get a ride 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.800 to the liquor store. While waiting for Jeremy's contact at 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:32.960 the tire shop, Antoine received. 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:33.920 A phone call from a girlfriend. 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:36.760 While they spoke about their plans to meet up later, 0:00:37.240 --> 0:00:40.199 Kevin Jackson and Jeremy Bruder went out of Antoine's sight 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:43.680 and gunshots rang out. Antoine didn't know who had fired 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:45.959 the shots, but Kevin came racing back to the car, 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:49.720 telling him to drive. When Antoine began to drive to safety, 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:53.520 he noticed Jeremy struggling to survive. He stopped the car, 0:00:53.920 --> 0:00:56.840 demanding answers from Kevin and began to walk back over 0:00:56.880 --> 0:01:00.560 to the tire shop when police arrived. I think that 0:01:00.600 --> 0:01:04.280 the field report logging the inventory of Antoine's patdown would 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:06.960 match the inventory of items locked when he arrived at 0:01:06.959 --> 0:01:10.920 oak Park PD, that the officer unseen could not have 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:13.800 possibly missed a large wat of bills alleged. 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:14.839 To belong to Jeremy Bruder. 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:19.959 One would think you might also believe that a teenager 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:23.080 might not need medical attention after a night spent in 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:28.440 the interrogation room. We'd certainly hope so. But this is 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:44.800 wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. Today, we have 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:47.360 a story from oak Park, Illinois. Now this is a 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:50.560 nice suburb just outside of Chicago, but still within the 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:54.280 limits of Cook County, and unfortunately for our guests today, 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:57.400 this story features a lot of the hallmarks of Chicago 0:01:57.560 --> 0:02:02.000 style Mode for Conviction. At QB had and still has 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:07.000 so much athletic and intellectual talent, but the time and 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:11.000 opportunity for him to excel at life was robbed from him. 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:16.079 He joins us from Stateville Penitentiary. Antoine, Welcome to ron 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:16.600 for Conviction. 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:19.400 Thank you. I appreciate you having me. 0:02:19.720 --> 0:02:22.480 And we appreciate you being here, even though I hate 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:24.919 the reason why you're here in the first place. And 0:02:25.000 --> 0:02:28.480 with him today is his attorney from Riley's Safer Homes 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:31.480 at Kencilla. You might recall that firm, of course, from 0:02:31.480 --> 0:02:35.160 a previous guest, Ron Safer. Well, this is Joe Harrah's 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:36.960 first appearance, and we hope it's not the last. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:38.520 So Joe, welcome to the show. 0:02:39.040 --> 0:02:40.200 Jason, thank you very much. 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:42.200 All right, so let's start out in the usual place 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:43.720 by getting to know Antoine. 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.400 A bit well. Originally from the South Side, the far 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.400 south side of Chicago and Argue of Guards Project. That's 0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.760 originally where my mother, Darlene Qby's from and her side 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:54.840 of the family. My father, he's from the West Side 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.680 of Chicago. They separated not so long after my birth. 0:02:58.040 --> 0:03:00.720 My mother was able to get us out of the projects, 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:05.079 and eventually, you know, she also made sacrifices to get 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.960 us to the suburbs, which was oh Park, until we 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:12.160 eventually ended up moving to the further west suburbs, which 0:03:12.200 --> 0:03:17.240 was Westmont. Went to school, stay active in sports, had 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.079 a lot of friends, never really got in any trouble. 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:22.880 You know. I fell in love with the game of basketball. 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.160 I think that's what mostly kept me out of trouble 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:25.840 all those years. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:27.680 Yeah, the elephant in the room is that you were 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:32.119 an amazing basketball player, like you had that thing right. 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:35.920 High schools were checking you out in junior high colleges 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.880 were scouting you out as early as your freshman year, 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.320 like you had that kind of special talent. 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:46.800 Yeah. I was a starter on the varsity all four years. 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:50.960 I was All Conference, All Area, All State, All American, 0:03:51.160 --> 0:03:54.400 got nominated to the All American McDonald's Game scholarships to 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:57.600 go to college, I didn't. I couldn't complain. I couldn't 0:03:57.600 --> 0:04:00.560 complain during those times. You know. Unfortunately, you know that 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:05.080 opportunity had taken from me. But during that time, it 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:07.360 was very promising. You know. 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:10.320 Antoine had a great mom and a solid upbringing, and 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:11.920 he was a good kid, and he didn't have any 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.240 behavioral problems at all or no criminal record. He finished 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.840 his high school career in nineteen ninety six at a 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.920 school called Donners Grove South, and he had his sights 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:24.520 set on a variety of options, but the one that 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:26.400 he was really kind of most focused on was going 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:29.240 to the University of Illinois. He wanted to play basketball 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:32.760 and study business and political science. So in June of 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:37.320 nineteen ninety six, Antoine Koobi had pretty much everything to 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:38.160 look forward. 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:40.680 To it sounds like it, and it's ironic because your 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:43.680 mom got you out of Chicago, away from not only 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.120 violent crime, but also away from the Chicago PD and 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:48.560 their predatory practices. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.000 Nineteen ninety six, of course. 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:53.560 Was just three years after Marcus Wiggins's mother won a 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.640 civil suit against the city when John Burges's Midnight crew 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.560 had beaten an electrocuted him. It was a thirteen year 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:04.599 old child at the time, but they tortured him into 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:09.000 making a false statement incriminating himself. Nineteen ninety six is 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.000 also two years before that same department made its third 0:05:13.120 --> 0:05:17.760 and unfortunately, their first successful attempt at framing Marcus. If 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:19.440 you haven't heard his story, we're gonna have it linked 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:21.479 in the episode bio, and I hope you'll listen to it. 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:24.440 But what we'll see here is that oak Park PD 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.080 was still very, very capable of similar tactics, even though 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:31.240 the relationship with oak Park PD was a bit more 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.680 cozy with this around the community. In fact, on that note, Anteline, 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.880 you knew one of these cops before all this happened, 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.680 because oak Park PD used to sometimes provide security for 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.279 sporting events, including your basketball games. 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.640 Yes, I don't want to necessarily a security for the game, 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:51.159 but they would be there, their presence was there. This 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.280 one particular officer Eddie Harris, he's been knowing me since 0:05:55.480 --> 0:05:57.560 I would say, grammar school, you know, my name was 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.320 ranking since then, and he used to do security at 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:03.839 the games. I remember him speaking to me from time 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:06.600 to time. You know, he was a black officer in 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.440 that town, and you know, he kind of stood out 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:11.000 amongst the rest of them. 0:06:10.839 --> 0:06:13.240 Which puts a fine point on a dynamic at play 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.479 in this story that you and Officer Harris are just 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.920 two of the very few black people in this very 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:20.440 homogeneous suburb. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.880 Well, Oak Park, It's a predominantly white suburb of Chicago. 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:28.520 It is very close to the city limits. It's known 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:31.960 as a very progressive area. I mean, the entire Chicago 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:36.080 area is certainly not without its racial tensions. It's obviously 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.520 also true in the suburbs of Chicago. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.640 Right and as we see all over this country, especially 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.320 when you have a white victim and perceived black assailants, 0:06:43.360 --> 0:06:46.599 the ham fisted police violence available in Chicago is ready 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:49.920 to be deployed here as well. Even with Officer Harris's 0:06:49.920 --> 0:06:54.559 participation in your eventual prosecution. Now typically on this show, 0:06:54.720 --> 0:06:57.440 if we're bringing up a previous relationship with the officer, 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.599 it's usually because our guests had been arrest said before, 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.799 maybe by that same officer, but you had no criminal 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:04.760 record whatsoever. 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:06.520 So here we're. 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:09.000 Talking about an officer who knows about your talents, and 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:11.440 he knew about your promising future, but he still had 0:07:11.600 --> 0:07:15.960 no qualms about letting this wrongful conviction happen. And it 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:19.400 appears that his fluid relationship with the truth was what 0:07:19.480 --> 0:07:23.679 ultimately brought his career to an end, thankfully. But before 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:25.600 we get to that, let's shift away from the full 0:07:25.600 --> 0:07:27.960 grown men who were aware of you to the guys 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.160 you knew in high school. And let's start with the 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.240 Jackson's Jamie and Kevin, who also grew up in Oak Park. 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.520 Jamie is older than Kevin and I, but me and 0:07:36.560 --> 0:07:39.400 Jamie were closer because the things that we hit in comment, 0:07:39.440 --> 0:07:42.560 you know, especially when it came to you know, basketball 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.800 and girls and you know, things of that nature. You know, 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.240 we called each other cousins, you know, because we were 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.520 so close. Kevin never really hung around us, you know, 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:53.760 he was always off doing his own thing with a 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:55.280 different crowd of people. 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.040 So Kevin was only in your life by virtue of 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.160 his brother Jamie. But in the town O Park, if 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.760 you limit yourself to only black friends, you might not 0:08:03.840 --> 0:08:06.640 have that many friends at all. What about Jeremy Brewder. 0:08:07.080 --> 0:08:10.320 Me and Jeremy we were lab partners, and you know 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:12.560 when your lab partners, you know, you get close. You know, 0:08:12.600 --> 0:08:16.640 you talk every day at school and eventually, you know, 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:19.320 it laid out of school from time to time. You know, 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:20.960 he would come to my house. You know, we play 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:22.480 video games and just hang out. 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:25.200 And this brings us to late spring nineteen ninety six. 0:08:25.320 --> 0:08:27.360 You were wrapping up your senior year of high school 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.280 and about to start college in the fall, play basketball somewhere. 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:32.920 Who knows where life was going to take you. At 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.160 this point, you came to own a few cars, and 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.760 Jeremy Brewder had just gotten a Jeep and had taken 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:40.200 notice of one of your cars. 0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.199 Right, I had a couple of cars, and I had 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.000 a Jeep cari key, and I had rams on mine, 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:47.520 and he wanted some rims because he had just got 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.440 a jeep. So, you know, Jeremy was always telling me 0:08:50.720 --> 0:08:54.120 about a guy that he met at the car wash 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.280 where he was working at It was a guy who 0:08:56.360 --> 0:08:58.559 was going to, you know, hook him up with some 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.880 rams and tires. He didn't tell me when, he didn't 0:09:01.920 --> 0:09:04.640 tell me how or who the guy was. So the 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.720 conversation pretended to the rims and tires really didn't go 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:09.640 anywhere at that moment. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:12.680 Until the faithful night of June first, nineteen ninety six, 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:15.120 when you were with your newborn son and his mother 0:09:15.320 --> 0:09:18.199 at her place in Villa Park, Illinois, and you've got 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:18.800 a few. 0:09:18.640 --> 0:09:21.640 Pages for people don't remember pages. That's when we used 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:23.680 to some people used to carry pages. 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:25.760 Because it before cell phones again, but you got a 0:09:25.760 --> 0:09:27.720 few pages from an unfamiliar number. 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:30.640 I called the number back and it was Jeremy. He 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:34.200 just came up on a hookup on some rims and 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:38.600 tires for his jeep, and can I take him to 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:42.840 oh Park? At first I said no, and he begged 0:09:42.840 --> 0:09:44.840 me to take him out there, so I said, okay. 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:47.320 He just wanted somebody to ride with him. So you 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:49.719 drove your girlfriend's car to meet up with Jeremy, and 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:52.439 you drove in separate cars to this tire shop in 0:09:52.559 --> 0:09:53.120 Oak Park. 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:55.960 It was pitch black in there. The doors was locked, 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.199 so you know, we knocked on a door. We banged 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.560 on the window. No one came, so we walked around 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.320 to the back to the garage door and we banged 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:06.320 on the door. Waited a couple of minutes. He said 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:09.120 he was early, so I was like, okay, well, since 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:11.240 we're a little early, you know, we can go waste 0:10:11.280 --> 0:10:13.360 some time. So I was like, man, we can go 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.680 to my cousin's house, which I was speaking of Jamie 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.120 in which he stayed maybe about ten minutes away in Chicago, 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:22.600 and you know, every weekend, you know, Jamie will throw 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.080 a get together. You know, people was always at his house. 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.920 Once we got there, Jeremy didn't want to go up, 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:30.040 so he stayed down. I told him I'll be right back. 0:10:30.200 --> 0:10:32.880 And while you were upstairs, you obviously saw Jamie Jackson 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.439 and Kevin Jackson was living there at the time as well. 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:37.960 Kevin asked me what I was doing out there, and 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.000 I told him, you know, I came out here to 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.000 bring my friend to buy some rims and tires for 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:45.360 his jeep. So he asked me, do you think you 0:10:45.360 --> 0:10:47.360 could take me to the liquor store, And I told 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.839 him I can probably take you once we're done, since 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:52.560 I'm on this side of town, I might as well 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:54.640 hang out, so yeah, you can ride with me. 0:10:54.880 --> 0:10:55.160 Now. 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.760 All three of you headed back to the tire shop 0:10:58.760 --> 0:10:59.679 in your girlfriend's car. 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:04.160 It's the apartment building diagonal to the back of the 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:08.560 rim shop, so we parked facing the garage door of 0:11:08.600 --> 0:11:10.840 the ram shop. All three of us got out. We 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:14.600 went back to the front of the ram shop, knocked 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.400 on a door, banged on the window, no response, so 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:21.280 we banged on the garage door as well. So instead 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.160 of us leaving, we just hung out for about maybe 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.520 ten fifteen minutes or so. As we're sitting there talking 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:31.200 and waiting, my pager goes off. It was a friend 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:34.640 of mine named Kia. I went back to the car 0:11:35.360 --> 0:11:37.160 to use the phone and give her a call. I 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:39.960 get in the driver's seat with the door open, and 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:45.439 I can see Kevin and Jeremy walking towards Madison Street 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.000 to the front of the ram shop. They eventually got 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.400 out of my sight and as I'm still talking on 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.320 the phone a few seconds a minute later or a 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:57.840 couple of minutes later, I hear gunshots. 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.080 And I'm reading that David take it from Kia bank 0:12:00.280 --> 0:12:04.360 right now, signed under penalty of perjury. In twenty eighteen, 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:08.560 she said, and I quote, Antoine and I were arguing 0:12:08.559 --> 0:12:10.240 about whether we would meet up that night, and then 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:14.000 suddenly I heard multiple gunshots in the background. The gunshots 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.520 did not sound like they were immediately next to the phone, 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.880 and I did not hear anything said by anyone in 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:20.400 connection with the gunshots. 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:22.120 End quote. 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:26.480 So from the only other actual witness to some degree 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:30.560 to this crime, the gunshots were in the background, away 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:33.200 from the phone and away from Antoine. 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:35.400 Now what happened next? 0:12:35.720 --> 0:12:40.960 I see Kevin running towards the car, and I'm waiting 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:45.600 on Jeremy to follow behind him. But Kevin jumps in 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.880 the passenger seat. He says, I got that bitch lefts go. 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:52.840 So I immediately start the car and I put it 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:57.079 in drive. As I make a left hand turn facing 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:01.280 Madison Street, I ride past and I see Jeremy laying 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:05.600 in the bushes. So once I get to Madison Street, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.800 I immediately stop on the next block. I don't keep 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:12.360 going to Harlem to get on the expressway and try 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:14.880 and get away. I immediately pull over on the next block, 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.200 asked Kevin, like what happened? And before he had a 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:22.600 chance to respond, I just lost it. I don't remember 0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:24.319 if I hit him, or if I grabbed him, or 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:27.040 if I I don't remember exactly what I did, but 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.640 I want to say I hit him. I can't remember. 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:32.760 I told him I'm going back to the scene. I'm 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:37.040 going back, so we get out the car. I immediately 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:41.360 tried to cut through someone's backyard to get straight to 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:44.440 the alley, and the fence was locked. I went to 0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:47.280 the next entrance that I saw, and it was some 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:52.160 big green garbage cans blocking the walkway, so I just 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:57.000 start walking. That's when the Forest Park police initially put 0:13:57.040 --> 0:13:59.440 the spotlight on us and told us to take our 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:02.440 hands out of our pocket and walk towards them, and 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.079 the Oak Park police came. 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.760 At this point, you had no idea why Kevin did 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.720 what he did. Before you even had time to work 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.679 through this scenario in your head, two police departments and 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:18.160 a bunch of EMTs had already shown up on the scene. 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.840 This was a congested neighborhood. There were lots of people 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.120 living in the vicinity, and the shots were easily heard, 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.600 so there were a number of call ins to the 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:32.120 police department. The Oak Park police start to preserve the scene, 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:37.200 interview witnesses and Essentially, they do everything that they need 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:41.880 to prosecute both Kevin Jackson and Antoine inside the first 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:43.280 twelve hours. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.160 And that started with patting you down while EMTs were 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:50.200 working on Jeremy not too far away at the tire shop. Now, importantly, 0:14:50.920 --> 0:14:54.280 they did not find a gun or a giant wad 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.280 of cash on you. The initial report reflects that, but 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.760 the placement of the giant a wad of cash mysteriously 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:06.520 changed later in a subsequent report. I'm sure you can 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.960 guess why. But okay, let's get back to the immediate aftermath. 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:11.280 Did they find the gun? 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.840 An Officer Romero actually does find a gun in a 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.000 garbage can. Unfortunately, he finds it in a garbage can 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.720 where the towel wrap around it and also submerged in water. 0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:26.160 So any fingerprints, DNA, etc. From the gun were no 0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.560 longer viable. What happened next. 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.320 They put me in a car and they put him 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:34.080 in another car. I remember them taking us back to 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.880 the scene of the current where it happened. When I 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.880 got out the car, I remember the first person in 0:15:40.040 --> 0:15:43.200 voice that I heard was Officer Harris. He's like, Oh, 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:48.400 that's Antoine QB. That's the basketball star and they walked 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.760 me towards Jeremy as the pyramidics was working on them. 0:15:52.160 --> 0:15:55.160 I guess they were trying to get him to identify me. 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.040 At this point, however, Jeremy is unconscious and is not 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:03.160 able to attempt to identify either Kevin or Antoine. 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.080 Now I need to point out that later on there 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:07.680 was a report from Officer Harris saying that Jeremy named 0:16:07.680 --> 0:16:12.040 Antoine QB. Now, this was touted as a dying declaration, 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:16.280 but when the amts on the scene, the ones who 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.240 had been on the scene were asked to corroborate this 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.880 alleged dying declaration, they did not. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.680 Interestingly, this is not from a report that Eddie Harris 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:29.520 prepares himself. It's from a report prepared by another police officer, 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.760 supposedly taken from an interview that occurred at three point 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:38.320 thirty am, which was after Kevin Jackson had been interviewed 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:41.680 by the police and had claimed that he had nothing 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:43.640 to do with this and that it was Antoine. 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.040 Right after they had figured out what the narrative of 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.520 the crime would be, this alleged dying declaration made its 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:54.600 first appearance, but Antoine's name had gone out over the dispatch, 0:16:55.040 --> 0:17:00.239 so police had Antoine's name early on, perhaps from Jeremy. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:02.000 However, the context. 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.160 Of how Antoine's name came out is foggy, to say 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:09.280 the least, but no paramedic heard or saw what Officer 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.359 Harris later claimed the trial. That's critical or we're going 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:15.280 to get back to it an a bit. So back 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.520 to the scene, Jeremy was unconscious, unable to make an id. 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:23.280 Then what they took us on the next block for 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.040 show up, put the spotlight on us ahead, I guess 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.720 people in the area, and they did this two times. 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.360 Come to find out later on that no one identified 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:36.600 me in the two shores, but they identify Kevin both times. 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:39.399 After that last show up, they took us to the 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:44.760 police station and they automatically did a gunshot residue test 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:47.199 on me, and I really didn't know what that was 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.840 at the time. I know they was just swapping my hands, right. 0:17:49.920 --> 0:17:51.160 Why would you have known? 0:17:51.640 --> 0:17:55.040 Gunshot residue testing or GSR testing is not something on 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:58.119 any lay person's radar in nineteen ninety six, even not 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:00.000 to this day, I would say, but definitely not back 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:02.040 and now, at the time, it was believed that the 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.520 presence of the elements associated with gunfire could only mean 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:08.359 one of three things. Either you handled a gun or 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:12.000 ammo fired a gun, or were in fact a gunshot victim. 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.399 Please check out our coverage of gunshot residue, unrawful conviction 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.800 junk science with our host Josh Duben. We're going to 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:20.040 have a linked in the bio. But what is now 0:18:20.080 --> 0:18:22.720 known is that the elements associated with gunfire can be 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.480 deposited by a number of other accessible sources, things like 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:31.960 cigarette ash, dried urine, brake pads. Not to mention, GSR 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:35.000 can also be found all over police stations and in 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.919 police vehicles, which means you can easily get what they 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:40.680 call touch transfer just from being in sitting in the 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:42.080 back of a squad car something like that. 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.520 So the truth is that the only probative. 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.440 And useful result of a GSR test is a negative 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.360 one in which the subject hadn't been given an opportunity 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:53.080 to wash their hands, which you were not. So, in 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:55.080 other words, without having been able to wash your hands, 0:18:55.119 --> 0:18:57.600 the absence of any of those elements on your hands 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.199 or clothing would have been should have ruled you out 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:01.879 completely as a potential shooter. 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:06.800 And the gun that was used to shoot Jeremy was 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.760 fired eight times. He was only hit six times, but 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:12.680 it was fired eight times. It was a nine millimeter handgun. 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:18.280 So they both have the gunshot residue tests administered to them. Now, 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.520 Antoine says that his hands were swabbed right away, even 0:19:21.560 --> 0:19:24.520 though the police reports say that evidence wasn't collected until 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:26.160 after I think it was three am. 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.400 Interesting that this information was recorded around the same time 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.320 as Officer Harris's alleged statement about the uncorroborated dying declarations. 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:35.560 So what were the results? Now? 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:39.119 What's very interesting is that the police actually don't bother 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:42.080 to have these test results analyze right away. They actually 0:19:42.080 --> 0:19:44.280 sit on them for two and a half months. But 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:48.520 when the results come back for Antoine, they come back 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.840 completely negative. So if he had this gun and he 0:19:51.880 --> 0:19:55.160 shot at eight times, they're not finding any of these particulates. 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:58.119 And Antoine never washed his hands before he was swabbed 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.800 to do the gunshot residue test, And the form is 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.639 very specific about whether there's been washing of the hands, 0:20:03.840 --> 0:20:06.840 because if the hands are washed, the test is invalid. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.800 But I mean, we'll talk about this a little later. 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.720 But the lawyer for Antoine, George Howard, doesn't use them 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:16.639 in Antoine's defense at trial, so that's not part of 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:18.800 the story. But there is another part of the story, 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:22.480 as you suggested, because the same test was performed on 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.680 Kevin Jackson. Now, the police report said that those tests 0:20:25.680 --> 0:20:28.760 weren't done until like four hours later than Antoine's, like 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:32.280 seven in the morning. But Kevin Jackson was permitted to 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.280 wash his hands twice before the test, so before he 0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:39.119 was being fingerprinted, he washed his hands and after so 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.439