1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio's 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:05,140 Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. 3 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,740 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and 4 00:00:13,770 --> 00:00:16,550 Speaker 2: there's Charles W. Tuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there, 5 00:00:17,020 --> 00:00:22,130 Speaker 2: and this is Stuff You Should Know. The superstar edition. 6 00:00:22,170 --> 00:00:24,070 Speaker 2: The old-timey superstar edition. 7 00:00:24,950 --> 00:00:26,730 Speaker 1: Yeah, man. I thought this was super cool. 8 00:00:27,930 --> 00:00:28,750 Speaker 2: It's in Pan Alley. 9 00:00:29,230 --> 00:00:31,300 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is one of those things where I've I 10 00:00:31,430 --> 00:00:34,520 Speaker 1: sort of knew what Tin Pan Alley was, and you 11 00:00:34,580 --> 00:00:38,140 Speaker 1: always have heard that term thrown around, but I never really, 12 00:00:38,180 --> 00:00:40,739 Speaker 1: really got it until this episode. 13 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, same here. 14 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:45,800 Speaker 1: And it's pretty cool. Like, the term Tin Pan Alley, T-I-N, 15 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,169 Speaker 1: full stop, P-A-N, alley. 16 00:00:49,790 --> 00:00:51,370 Speaker 2: You forgot a second full stop there. 17 00:00:51,470 --> 00:00:53,990 Speaker 1: Full stop. I just want to make sure people know 18 00:00:54,010 --> 00:00:55,750 Speaker 1: it's not one word, like tin pan. 19 00:00:56,070 --> 00:00:56,230 Speaker 2: Right. 20 00:00:56,250 --> 00:00:56,810 Speaker 1: It's two words. 21 00:00:57,170 --> 00:00:57,710 Speaker 2: Right. 22 00:00:57,730 --> 00:01:00,730 Speaker 1: But that is, linguistically speaking, that's a synecdoche. 23 00:01:01,850 --> 00:01:03,730 Speaker 2: What? It is. 24 00:01:03,770 --> 00:01:04,580 Speaker 1: You know what that is, right? 25 00:01:05,220 --> 00:01:06,170 Speaker 2: I've seen the movie. 26 00:01:08,560 --> 00:01:14,340 Speaker 1: Man, that movie. Jeez. You're talking about the Charlie Kaufman thing, right? Sure, yeah. 27 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,740 Speaker 2: Yeah. Synecdoche, New York. 28 00:01:17,220 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so a synecdoche is when a specific place stands 29 00:01:22,860 --> 00:01:26,500 Speaker 1: in for a broader term, like Wall Street. Wall Street's 30 00:01:26,540 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: a real street, but Wall Street also means the finance industry. 31 00:01:30,540 --> 00:01:30,660 Speaker 2: Right. 32 00:01:31,110 --> 00:01:32,730 Speaker 1: Or Hollywood. Hollywood's a real place. 33 00:01:33,209 --> 00:01:34,990 Speaker 2: Oh, okay. This makes a lot more sense than the 34 00:01:35,030 --> 00:01:35,990 Speaker 2: Charlie Kaufman movie. 35 00:01:36,190 --> 00:01:43,780 Speaker 1: Yeah. So Tin Pan Alley is a bunch of things. 36 00:01:43,860 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: It was a place in New York City, which we'll 37 00:01:47,380 --> 00:01:50,100 Speaker 1: get to in a second, like exactly where. And it 38 00:01:50,140 --> 00:01:53,900 Speaker 1: was also referred to sort of the beginnings of the 39 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,020 Speaker 1: music publishing industry and genre as well. 40 00:01:58,520 --> 00:01:58,700 Speaker 2: Yep. 41 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 1: There's kind of a lot of things. But it stems 42 00:02:01,700 --> 00:02:05,380 Speaker 1: from the root of a tin pan, like a tin 43 00:02:05,420 --> 00:02:08,500 Speaker 1: pan was a cheap piano. Like if you had a 44 00:02:08,500 --> 00:02:11,380 Speaker 1: really cheap piano, you would say it sounds tin panny. 45 00:02:11,860 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 2: Right, because that's what the hammer on the piano is 46 00:02:14,139 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 2: hitting is tin pans rather than strings. 47 00:02:16,100 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds just like a real tinny tone, like 48 00:02:18,220 --> 00:02:20,180 Speaker 1: you're beating on a tin pan. So that's where the 49 00:02:20,220 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: term originally came from. And depending on who you ask, 50 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: this area of New York was called Tin Pan Alley 51 00:02:27,139 --> 00:02:30,160 Speaker 1: because perhaps a journalist first wrote about it. all the 52 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:33,620 Speaker 1: sounds coming from the songwriters from these buildings on this 53 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: one block sounded like Tin Pan Alley. 54 00:02:36,419 --> 00:02:41,310 Speaker 2: Right. It's no exaggeration to say Tin Pan Alley, specifically 55 00:02:41,500 --> 00:02:44,810 Speaker 2: this little stretch in New York, uh, like a block 56 00:02:44,870 --> 00:02:46,370 Speaker 2: or so, maybe less than a block. 57 00:02:46,410 --> 00:02:47,329 Speaker 1: It's a, it's a block. 58 00:02:47,610 --> 00:02:52,650 Speaker 2: Okay. Um, was the place where the American popular music 59 00:02:52,770 --> 00:02:53,970 Speaker 2: industry was born? 60 00:02:54,710 --> 00:02:58,730 Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's specifically 28th street between six and Broadway. Um, 61 00:02:59,770 --> 00:03:02,690 Speaker 1: kind of between Chelsea and Kipps Bay, a little northwest 62 00:03:02,830 --> 00:03:04,250 Speaker 1: of the Flatiron Building. 63 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:05,780 Speaker 2: Gotcha. 64 00:03:05,790 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: And it's interesting to think that the beginnings of music 65 00:03:11,660 --> 00:03:18,279 Speaker 1: distribution wasn't pre-phonograph and pre-records. There was still music distribution, 66 00:03:18,340 --> 00:03:19,980 Speaker 1: but it was sheet music. 67 00:03:20,340 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: Right, right. So I think, Chuck, we should get back 68 00:03:22,340 --> 00:03:25,580 Speaker 2: in the waveback machine and go to an indeterminate part 69 00:03:25,620 --> 00:03:28,020 Speaker 2: of the mid-19th century in the United States. 70 00:03:28,060 --> 00:03:28,530 Speaker 1: Let's do it. 71 00:03:34,510 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: So like you said there's horse poop everywhere there's a 72 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: lot of it um it's like you said if you 73 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: wanted to hear music you had basically two choices you 74 00:03:45,500 --> 00:03:49,030 Speaker 2: could go hear it played live somewhere everywhere from a 75 00:03:49,090 --> 00:03:52,770 Speaker 2: barbershop quartet to maybe an orchestra um. 76 00:03:53,090 --> 00:03:55,170 Speaker 1: Or on board Right. 77 00:03:55,190 --> 00:03:58,210 Speaker 2: Or you could have a family member who knew how 78 00:03:58,230 --> 00:04:00,310 Speaker 2: to play music and buy a piano and have it 79 00:04:00,490 --> 00:04:04,030 Speaker 2: in your home. Those were your two ways to hear 80 00:04:04,110 --> 00:04:08,970 Speaker 2: music because everywhere there was no such thing as radio. 81 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: Let's just say it, everybody. Yeah. There was no radio. 82 00:04:14,420 --> 00:04:17,060 Speaker 2: There wasn't. And if you think about it, radio was, 83 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 2: you know, we take it so much for granted today, 84 00:04:19,460 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: but it was a huge watershed change. In the way 85 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:28,420 Speaker 2: that Americans in the world heard their music. You could 86 00:04:28,460 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 2: just hear it at home being played by professionals. Like 87 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:34,750 Speaker 2: the greatest musicians you've ever heard, you could just sit 88 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:36,830 Speaker 2: around and listen to it at your home. Whereas just 89 00:04:37,370 --> 00:04:39,969 Speaker 2: years before, a few years before, you had to listen 90 00:04:39,990 --> 00:04:42,950 Speaker 2: to your 12-year-old try to bang out some song on 91 00:04:42,990 --> 00:04:46,300 Speaker 2: the piano that you just bought. And that was your 92 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 2: option aside from going to hear it live. 93 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: And so. 94 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,460 Speaker 2: This whole idea of the music industry being born is 95 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:57,900 Speaker 2: basically predicated on two things, Chuck. One was the fact 96 00:04:57,940 --> 00:05:01,190 Speaker 2: that pianos were starting to become ubiquitous in American houses. 97 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,050 Speaker 2: And people were learning how to play those pianos. So 98 00:05:05,130 --> 00:05:10,230 Speaker 2: music instruction became kind of widespread. And then secondly, copyright 99 00:05:10,270 --> 00:05:13,250 Speaker 2: law started to really solidify in the United States in 100 00:05:13,290 --> 00:05:16,270 Speaker 2: the 19th century. And so that sheet music became much 101 00:05:16,310 --> 00:05:17,770 Speaker 2: more valuable than it was before. 102 00:05:18,380 --> 00:05:21,060 Speaker 1: Yeah, like if you can't– like I can't read sheet music. 103 00:05:21,210 --> 00:05:23,909 Speaker 1: I can't either. Yeah, I learned to play guitar by ear. 104 00:05:26,110 --> 00:05:28,290 Speaker 1: And kind of I guess every friend I know that's 105 00:05:28,330 --> 00:05:33,190 Speaker 1: a musician, except for a couple, learned by ear. If 106 00:05:33,210 --> 00:05:35,830 Speaker 1: you came up formally through high school band or something 107 00:05:35,870 --> 00:05:39,820 Speaker 1: like that or maybe just private music instruction, then you 108 00:05:39,860 --> 00:05:42,100 Speaker 1: may be able to read music. But back in the day, 109 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:44,380 Speaker 1: if you could not– and still today– if you could 110 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,940 Speaker 1: not play by ear– The only way to do so 111 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: was through sheet music. And that was the first commodity 112 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,810 Speaker 1: in the music business was literally just selling sheet music 113 00:05:55,830 --> 00:05:58,430 Speaker 1: to people. Right. It's hard to wrap your head around now, 114 00:05:58,470 --> 00:05:59,410 Speaker 1: but that was the commodity. 115 00:05:59,850 --> 00:06:01,190 Speaker 2: It is hard to wrap your head around. But if 116 00:06:01,230 --> 00:06:04,220 Speaker 2: you think about sheet music is basically the predecessor to 117 00:06:04,300 --> 00:06:09,700 Speaker 2: the cassette or the record or the CD or the MP3. 118 00:06:11,010 --> 00:06:14,150 Speaker 2: It's the exact same thing. It's just to to hear 119 00:06:14,210 --> 00:06:15,950 Speaker 2: it like that is what you went and bought at 120 00:06:16,010 --> 00:06:18,180 Speaker 2: the store. And then you came home and played it 121 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,300 Speaker 2: rather than listening to somebody else playing it. 122 00:06:20,820 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. And like they sold a lot of them, like 123 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,970 Speaker 1: the very first hit that Tin Pan Alley put out. 124 00:06:26,570 --> 00:06:28,490 Speaker 1: And this was a period. I mean, this was in 125 00:06:28,490 --> 00:06:32,050 Speaker 1: 1881 when Wait Till the Clouds Roll By was put out. So. 126 00:06:32,790 --> 00:06:37,750 Speaker 1: Tin Pan Alley generally was early 1880s till early 1920s 127 00:06:37,810 --> 00:06:38,090 Speaker 1: or so. 128 00:06:38,110 --> 00:06:41,430 Speaker 2: I saw like late 1920s. Was it early? Yeah. 129 00:06:41,690 --> 00:06:43,630 Speaker 1: Yeah. I guess, you know, you can never say when 130 00:06:43,940 --> 00:06:44,800 Speaker 1: it was dead, dead. 131 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:45,300 Speaker 2: Right. 132 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: But in one month in 1881, they sold 75,000 copies 133 00:06:52,420 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: of sheet music to Wait Till the Clouds Roll By. 134 00:06:54,900 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 2: Right. 135 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:55,989 Speaker 1: That's amazing. 136 00:06:56,390 --> 00:06:58,930 Speaker 2: Yeah, because this was, it was a good song. And 137 00:06:59,350 --> 00:07:01,870 Speaker 2: people wanted to hear the song. So they went and 138 00:07:01,910 --> 00:07:04,710 Speaker 2: bought the sheet music. Yeah. So that was one thing, right? 139 00:07:04,770 --> 00:07:06,410 Speaker 2: So there was sheet music. That was how you got 140 00:07:06,450 --> 00:07:08,890 Speaker 2: this stuff out. And, but even before wait till the 141 00:07:09,210 --> 00:07:12,770 Speaker 2: clouds rolled by, which it seems like was probably America's 142 00:07:12,890 --> 00:07:14,570 Speaker 2: first number one smash hit. 143 00:07:14,730 --> 00:07:14,970 Speaker 1: Yeah. 144 00:07:15,510 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 2: Um, music prior to that, there was plenty of sheet 145 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,810 Speaker 2: music to be sold. Um, But it was largely like 146 00:07:23,110 --> 00:07:28,510 Speaker 2: church hymns. Boring. There was a lot that were sold 147 00:07:28,550 --> 00:07:29,350 Speaker 2: for schools. 148 00:07:29,530 --> 00:07:30,150 Speaker 1: Yeah. 149 00:07:30,590 --> 00:07:35,030 Speaker 2: And like I said, copyright law changed. It allowed Tim 150 00:07:35,070 --> 00:07:37,570 Speaker 2: Pannelli to develop, and it did so in two ways. One, 151 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 2: like the court started taking copyrights for music seriously in 152 00:07:42,900 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: the second half of the 19th century. So you could 153 00:07:45,700 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: actually enforce your copyright against people who were infringing on it. Mm-hmm. 154 00:07:51,250 --> 00:07:57,060 Speaker 2: And then secondly, the Supreme Court specifically said, hey, if 155 00:07:57,100 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 2: you wrote a song outside of America, when it comes 156 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:04,620 Speaker 2: to America, you can copyright it in America too. Which 157 00:08:04,700 --> 00:08:08,450 Speaker 2: means that the music publisher's source of free sheet music, 158 00:08:08,610 --> 00:08:11,890 Speaker 2: which was just basically stealing foreign music, printing it out 159 00:08:11,950 --> 00:08:14,350 Speaker 2: in sheet music form, and then selling it and not 160 00:08:14,390 --> 00:08:18,070 Speaker 2: paying any royalties because it enjoyed no copyright protection, that 161 00:08:18,150 --> 00:08:21,270 Speaker 2: source dried up. And so all of a sudden, this 162 00:08:21,310 --> 00:08:25,100 Speaker 2: American music that they had to pay for now seemed 163 00:08:25,140 --> 00:08:27,720 Speaker 2: a lot more attractive because now they had to pay 164 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:32,700 Speaker 2: for the music generated overseas too. So this copyright law 165 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:34,540 Speaker 2: and the fact that more and more people were learning 166 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 2: to play piano and so you had an actual market 167 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,550 Speaker 2: for sheet music, those two things came together. 168 00:08:39,570 --> 00:08:42,870 Speaker 1: All right, let's take a break. I feel like that's 169 00:08:42,890 --> 00:08:43,470 Speaker 1: a pretty good setup. 170 00:08:43,890 --> 00:08:44,130 Speaker 2: Okay. 171 00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:46,890 Speaker 1: And we'll come back and talk a little bit about 172 00:08:46,910 --> 00:08:50,380 Speaker 1: who these... Music publishers were and how they went about 173 00:08:50,420 --> 00:08:53,270 Speaker 1: their work early on in the Tin Pan Alley era 174 00:08:53,510 --> 00:09:07,250 Speaker 1: right after this All right, so we've been throwing around 175 00:09:07,270 --> 00:09:09,849 Speaker 1: the term music publishers a lot and that sort of 176 00:09:09,870 --> 00:09:11,750 Speaker 1: means a different thing now than it did back then 177 00:09:13,150 --> 00:09:17,010 Speaker 1: But back then music publishers Some of them wrote songs 178 00:09:17,250 --> 00:09:20,420 Speaker 1: to be sure But generally, they did not. A lot 179 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,980 Speaker 1: of the early publishers out of Tin Pan Alley had 180 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: backgrounds as salespeople. So there was a guy named, a 181 00:09:28,940 --> 00:09:32,500 Speaker 1: very successful publisher named Isidore Whitmark. He started out selling 182 00:09:32,540 --> 00:09:37,820 Speaker 1: water filters. Another one named Leo Feist sold corsets. Another 183 00:09:37,880 --> 00:09:40,970 Speaker 1: one named Joe Stern and Edward B. Mark sold neckties 184 00:09:41,090 --> 00:09:44,730 Speaker 1: and buttons. And a lot of these people, I guess 185 00:09:44,750 --> 00:09:47,589 Speaker 1: we should point out too, came over from Europe. A 186 00:09:47,630 --> 00:09:55,250 Speaker 1: lot were Jewish. Some African-American songwriters like they were minorities 187 00:09:57,050 --> 00:09:59,150 Speaker 1: kind of for the most part early on, it feels like. 188 00:09:59,630 --> 00:10:03,309 Speaker 2: Right. And they saw a huge opportunity in this music 189 00:10:03,350 --> 00:10:06,450 Speaker 2: business that was starting to coalesce because prior to this, 190 00:10:06,510 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: I mean, there were there were music publishers, but it 191 00:10:09,030 --> 00:10:13,840 Speaker 2: was basically some guy who worked at a printer who 192 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:17,460 Speaker 2: had a friend who could transpose music by ear. And 193 00:10:17,500 --> 00:10:20,110 Speaker 2: they would just take some song that they heard and 194 00:10:20,210 --> 00:10:22,470 Speaker 2: turn it into sheet music and start selling it. Or 195 00:10:22,510 --> 00:10:24,590 Speaker 2: they worked at the music store and the music store 196 00:10:24,610 --> 00:10:27,970 Speaker 2: basically did the exact same thing. And so everyone was 197 00:10:28,030 --> 00:10:31,910 Speaker 2: ripping off everyone else's songs and anybody could be a 198 00:10:31,970 --> 00:10:35,780 Speaker 2: music publisher. But when those copyrights started to become enforced, um, 199 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 2: it became much more valuable to invest in original music 200 00:10:40,380 --> 00:10:42,790 Speaker 2: because you could make a lot more money off of it. 201 00:10:43,309 --> 00:10:47,689 Speaker 2: So a lot of those Jewish immigrants and a lot 202 00:10:47,710 --> 00:10:53,940 Speaker 2: of the African-American songwriters and composers kind of coalesced into 203 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 2: New York. They came from Boston and Detroit and Atlanta 204 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:00,580 Speaker 2: and St. Louis and all over the country. And all 205 00:11:00,620 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 2: those towns lost their publishing houses and they all moved 206 00:11:04,830 --> 00:11:07,809 Speaker 2: to New York. And they very specifically moved to this 207 00:11:08,090 --> 00:11:12,910 Speaker 2: one little stretch on 28th Street and it became Tin 208 00:11:12,929 --> 00:11:14,210 Speaker 2: Pan Alley. Yeah. 209 00:11:14,230 --> 00:11:18,190 Speaker 1: And it's really interesting to look at how it worked 210 00:11:18,250 --> 00:11:22,100 Speaker 1: back then and how it sort of mirrored how music 211 00:11:22,140 --> 00:11:25,020 Speaker 1: grew out of that model, really, and changed in some ways, 212 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,000 Speaker 1: but kind of stayed the same in a lot of ways, too. 213 00:11:28,340 --> 00:11:30,740 Speaker 1: Like you always hear about music contracts and how terrible 214 00:11:30,780 --> 00:11:34,150 Speaker 1: they are for rock musicians or pop musicians, and it 215 00:11:34,190 --> 00:11:36,830 Speaker 1: was kind of the same way back then. These publishers 216 00:11:36,870 --> 00:11:40,910 Speaker 1: got together, they created this songwriting factory on this block 217 00:11:41,890 --> 00:11:46,990 Speaker 1: of buildings through different companies, and they would recruit songwriters 218 00:11:47,050 --> 00:11:51,150 Speaker 1: to come in. They had different arrangements. Sometimes They would 219 00:11:51,170 --> 00:11:53,890 Speaker 1: just buy it outright from you, including the rights to 220 00:11:53,929 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: change the name of who wrote it. 221 00:11:55,950 --> 00:11:56,630 Speaker 2: Right. 222 00:11:56,710 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: Sometimes they would have the right to throw one of 223 00:12:00,059 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: the other more, I guess, once they had established themselves, 224 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: another co-author's name on there. But they would just say, 225 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,360 Speaker 1: write these songs, write these songs, and we're going to 226 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,540 Speaker 1: buy them from you. And we're going to try and 227 00:12:12,570 --> 00:12:14,569 Speaker 1: make them pop. You couldn't put them on the radio. 228 00:12:15,190 --> 00:12:16,770 Speaker 1: So we're going to try and get them popular by. 229 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,750 Speaker 1: Getting them onto vaudeville and on stage and sending not moles, 230 00:12:22,809 --> 00:12:25,910 Speaker 1: I guess, but it was almost like early payola, uh, 231 00:12:26,270 --> 00:12:30,390 Speaker 1: sending these performers into vaudeville to sing these songs and 232 00:12:30,410 --> 00:12:32,859 Speaker 1: perform these songs. And people are like, well, that's pretty catchy. 233 00:12:33,540 --> 00:12:34,060 Speaker 1: I want that. 234 00:12:34,460 --> 00:12:36,420 Speaker 2: Right. That's how they, that's how they marketed it. And 235 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,660 Speaker 2: that was like the, the whole thing. Like if, if you, 236 00:12:39,260 --> 00:12:42,020 Speaker 2: it was the first time that the, that music became 237 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:45,660 Speaker 2: an industry and, Because there was almost an assembly line 238 00:12:45,730 --> 00:12:48,429 Speaker 2: feel to it where they would have feelers out to 239 00:12:48,490 --> 00:12:52,550 Speaker 2: find out what people were into as music at the time. 240 00:12:53,010 --> 00:12:56,450 Speaker 2: One of the early transitions that Tim Pannelli underwent was 241 00:12:56,490 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 2: when it started, it was a factory for churning out comedic, 242 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: often deeply racist songs, lots of ballads, just what you 243 00:13:09,059 --> 00:13:13,210 Speaker 2: think of as super old-timey songs, right? And then... the 244 00:13:13,260 --> 00:13:15,690 Speaker 2: public started to get kind of bored with that. And 245 00:13:15,730 --> 00:13:18,250 Speaker 2: they decided that they kind of liked this ragtime thing 246 00:13:18,290 --> 00:13:21,950 Speaker 2: that the Scott Joplin fella has, um, has started to create. 247 00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:25,490 Speaker 2: And so Tim Pan Alley, this is classic Tim Pan Alley, 248 00:13:25,809 --> 00:13:29,650 Speaker 2: went out, figured out, um, how to play ragtime, started 249 00:13:29,750 --> 00:13:34,040 Speaker 2: co-opting the ragtime genre and created pop music. So they 250 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,020 Speaker 2: took what was a really difficult, um, kind of music. 251 00:13:38,260 --> 00:13:41,940 Speaker 2: It's called syncopated rhythm where you've got a melody within 252 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,470 Speaker 2: a rhythm, right? So you know ragtime, right? Sure. 253 00:13:45,830 --> 00:13:46,030 Speaker 1: Okay. 254 00:13:46,370 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 2: So they figured out how to take this very difficult 255 00:13:49,340 --> 00:13:53,140 Speaker 2: thing and kind of popify it to make it easy 256 00:13:53,260 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 2: for the audience to play. Because again, here's the thing. 257 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: They're not saying, hey, you're the best of the best 258 00:14:00,260 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 2: studio musician. We've got this really tough song over here 259 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,700 Speaker 2: that sounds great, but it's really tough to play. We 260 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,100 Speaker 2: want to pay you to come play it. We're going 261 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 2: to record it and distribute it. onto the radio, that 262 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,380 Speaker 2: didn't exist yet. They had to figure out how to 263 00:14:12,420 --> 00:14:16,500 Speaker 2: take difficult songs, kind of dumb them down into something 264 00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:20,170 Speaker 2: catchy and memorable and importantly, easy to play so that 265 00:14:20,210 --> 00:14:23,310 Speaker 2: they could sell that sheet music to local musicians or 266 00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:26,230 Speaker 2: those barbershop quartets, or so that the 12 year old 267 00:14:26,270 --> 00:14:28,770 Speaker 2: at home could play it for the rest of their family. 268 00:14:29,110 --> 00:14:30,780 Speaker 2: And so that is how they kind of started to 269 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:35,100 Speaker 2: take popular music and make it even more popular. They 270 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:39,850 Speaker 2: decided what music was popular based on what America was 271 00:14:39,890 --> 00:14:41,450 Speaker 2: starting to get into at the time. 272 00:14:42,070 --> 00:14:46,930 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there were these musicians called songpluggers. So how 273 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,050 Speaker 1: it would work is a music publisher in Tin Pan 274 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: Alley would buy a song or the rights to a 275 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: song off of a musician who wrote it, maybe put 276 00:14:57,780 --> 00:14:59,900 Speaker 1: their own name on it, and then they would give 277 00:14:59,940 --> 00:15:02,660 Speaker 1: that song to a songplugger who is a musician who 278 00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:05,550 Speaker 1: would go and perform this at a music shop that 279 00:15:05,590 --> 00:15:08,670 Speaker 1: maybe sold pianos or something like that. And this was 280 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:11,500 Speaker 1: pre-radio how they got the music out in the public. 281 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:16,100 Speaker 1: And it was crazy. These songpluggers got money. Irving Berlin 282 00:15:16,140 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: started out as a songplugger. Right. 283 00:15:18,710 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 2: And so it's kind of like, You know how you 284 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,340 Speaker 2: go to a grocery store on a Saturday and they'll 285 00:15:24,380 --> 00:15:26,180 Speaker 2: be sitting there giving out samples of something? 286 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:26,620 Speaker 1: Sure. 287 00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:29,490 Speaker 2: And you'll say, oh, this cheese with this cracker tastes 288 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 2: really good. I'm going to go buy this cheese and 289 00:15:31,730 --> 00:15:34,270 Speaker 2: these crackers. This is the exact same thing, except you 290 00:15:34,290 --> 00:15:36,630 Speaker 2: would say, oh, this song sounds really good. I'm going 291 00:15:36,650 --> 00:15:39,550 Speaker 2: to buy the sheet music. That's what music pluggers were for. 292 00:15:39,630 --> 00:15:41,610 Speaker 2: That's how they got the word out. That's how they 293 00:15:41,710 --> 00:15:44,470 Speaker 2: advertised the music was to play them. And then another 294 00:15:44,490 --> 00:15:46,050 Speaker 2: way to do it, Chuck, is like you were saying, 295 00:15:46,430 --> 00:15:50,510 Speaker 2: they would set vaudeville shows up or musical reviews or 296 00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:56,690 Speaker 2: Broadway shows, whatever, with these popular songs and these songwriters 297 00:15:57,890 --> 00:16:00,010 Speaker 2: to help get them out that way, too. So the 298 00:16:00,130 --> 00:16:02,410 Speaker 2: audiences would go hear these things. So you could hear 299 00:16:02,430 --> 00:16:04,430 Speaker 2: them in the music shop. You could hear them at 300 00:16:04,470 --> 00:16:10,619 Speaker 2: the theater. You might hear them. Well, that's basically it. 301 00:16:11,740 --> 00:16:13,580 Speaker 2: It's the theater and the music shop were the two 302 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 2: main venues, unless I'm forgetting one. 303 00:16:15,420 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, and that was the plugging, but there was also booming. 304 00:16:19,060 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 1: So like I said, you had Irving Berlin and George 305 00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:25,590 Speaker 1: Gershwin started out as a song plugger. Al Sherman started 306 00:16:25,650 --> 00:16:27,730 Speaker 1: out as a song plugger. But if you wanted to 307 00:16:27,770 --> 00:16:30,230 Speaker 1: be more aggressive than that even, you would do something 308 00:16:30,270 --> 00:16:35,390 Speaker 1: called booming, which is you would buy like 25 tickets 309 00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: to a show. You would have the plugger up there 310 00:16:38,540 --> 00:16:42,060 Speaker 1: playing the song, and then those 25 people would were 311 00:16:42,300 --> 00:16:45,100 Speaker 1: plants basically that already knew the song that would sing 312 00:16:45,140 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: along to it. And then everyone, the only thing better 313 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,860 Speaker 1: than hearing a great song for the first time in 314 00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: 1910 in New York City is hearing 25 people around 315 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,930 Speaker 1: you singing it and you're thinking, how have I been 316 00:16:57,950 --> 00:17:00,050 Speaker 1: missing out on this thing? And that may be the 317 00:17:00,090 --> 00:17:02,650 Speaker 1: first time it was ever performed in public. And it 318 00:17:02,690 --> 00:17:05,430 Speaker 1: was all just a big Kind of a big scam. 319 00:17:05,590 --> 00:17:08,469 Speaker 2: It was. It's hilarious, though, that that's how you just 320 00:17:08,490 --> 00:17:12,090 Speaker 2: look around and suddenly be overcome with FOMO. So you'd 321 00:17:12,130 --> 00:17:14,010 Speaker 2: be into this new song and run out and buy 322 00:17:14,050 --> 00:17:18,750 Speaker 2: the sheet music, I guess. Early FOMO. So there was 323 00:17:18,770 --> 00:17:20,689 Speaker 2: this process to all this. And like you said, you 324 00:17:20,710 --> 00:17:24,930 Speaker 2: could be a no-name composer who would show up at 325 00:17:24,950 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 2: Tin Pan Alley with the song that you're trying to sell. 326 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 2: And if it was good, the publisher might buy it. 327 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,659 Speaker 2: But like you said, you would get some sort of 328 00:17:32,740 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: terrible contractor, they would buy it outright, take your name 329 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:37,550 Speaker 2: off of the composition and put their own name on there. 330 00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:42,070 Speaker 2: But they also hired composers, I think like you were 331 00:17:42,090 --> 00:17:45,470 Speaker 2: saying too, where they were They had a few hits 332 00:17:45,530 --> 00:17:47,310 Speaker 2: under their belt, so they had a steady gig at 333 00:17:47,350 --> 00:17:50,010 Speaker 2: the music publisher. And their contract was a little better, 334 00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:54,040 Speaker 2: but they were not in creative control for the most part. 335 00:17:54,060 --> 00:17:56,820 Speaker 2: It's where the music publisher would say, hey, everybody's into 336 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,119 Speaker 2: this ragtime. Make me some ragtime songs. Everybody's into this 337 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 2: jazz and this blues stuff. Make me some bluesy kind 338 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 2: of stuff that I can turn around and sell. And 339 00:18:05,220 --> 00:18:10,190 Speaker 2: the competition was really fierce among the in-house composers because 340 00:18:10,210 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 2: they Just because you composed a song doesn't mean it 341 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 2: was going to be turned around and transcribed into sheet 342 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,600 Speaker 2: music and then people would buy it. Like you had 343 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 2: to basically audition your song to see whether it made 344 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 2: it to the next level. And so in Tim Pan Alley, 345 00:18:24,420 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 2: and this is where it got its name, there would be, 346 00:18:26,820 --> 00:18:32,500 Speaker 2: you know, no-name composers, house composers, vaudeville acts, all running 347 00:18:32,520 --> 00:18:36,380 Speaker 2: around playing music from these open windows because there wasn't 348 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:38,900 Speaker 2: air conditioning back then. And so at any given time, 349 00:18:38,940 --> 00:18:41,790 Speaker 2: you'd walk down Tin Pan Alley and there'd be a 350 00:18:41,890 --> 00:18:44,850 Speaker 2: dozen or scores of different songs all being played on 351 00:18:44,890 --> 00:18:47,850 Speaker 2: these pianos streaming out of the windows onto the street 352 00:18:47,890 --> 00:18:51,250 Speaker 2: at the same time. And that's where that reporter, Monroe Rosenfeld, 353 00:18:51,270 --> 00:18:53,010 Speaker 2: came up with the idea of Tin Pan Alley. He 354 00:18:53,030 --> 00:18:54,790 Speaker 2: said when he was walking down the street, he was 355 00:18:54,830 --> 00:18:56,770 Speaker 2: kind of describing what that was like. He said it 356 00:18:56,810 --> 00:18:58,970 Speaker 2: sounded like, you know, a bunch of tin pans being 357 00:18:59,030 --> 00:18:59,730 Speaker 2: struck at once. 358 00:19:00,250 --> 00:19:02,869 Speaker 1: Yeah. And this whole area of New York, this one block, 359 00:19:03,510 --> 00:19:08,429 Speaker 1: just really became like a creative well. There were uh 360 00:19:09,090 --> 00:19:12,330 Speaker 1: vaudeville theaters there were uh play theaters like it was 361 00:19:12,369 --> 00:19:15,540 Speaker 1: sort of the earliest incarnation of the theater district before 362 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: it moved toward times square uh and then other parts 363 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: of the entertainment industry obviously are drawn to that area 364 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: um variety magazine that's where it first popped up on 365 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,669 Speaker 1: that block when it was called the clipper uh the 366 00:19:27,710 --> 00:19:30,250 Speaker 1: william morris talent agency had an office on that block 367 00:19:30,470 --> 00:19:32,870 Speaker 1: yeah and it was just sort of the you know 368 00:19:33,010 --> 00:19:37,580 Speaker 1: after i think uh boston chicago cincinnati uh And I 369 00:19:37,619 --> 00:19:40,899 Speaker 1: think one other city kind of were the early seats 370 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:44,790 Speaker 1: of the early music industry. It all roundly landed in 371 00:19:44,830 --> 00:19:48,190 Speaker 1: New York and just such a creative area and era. 372 00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:51,100 Speaker 2: It's so neat to think about. too, because that's happened 373 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:54,460 Speaker 2: in places before where if you take a bunch of 374 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,160 Speaker 2: creative people and jam them into a small area, just 375 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,420 Speaker 2: amazing stuff happens. Like you can do something as big 376 00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:06,899 Speaker 2: as birth a genre of music or like pop music 377 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,070 Speaker 2: and Which is like an umbrella. It's not even a genre. 378 00:20:10,090 --> 00:20:13,450 Speaker 2: There's genres underneath pop music, you know, where something that 379 00:20:13,530 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 2: big can happen when you get that many creative people 380 00:20:15,990 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 2: together in one place. 381 00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:20,140 Speaker 1: Should we take another break? Sure. 382 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:20,699 Speaker 2: All right. 383 00:20:20,740 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: Let's take another break and we'll talk about some of 384 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:27,719 Speaker 1: these songs, these composers, and the Great American Songbook right 385 00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: after this. 386 00:20:28,540 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: Hey ho, say. 387 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:42,220 Speaker 1: No, talk no, talk no. All right, so there's money 388 00:20:42,260 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: being made. 389 00:20:42,780 --> 00:20:44,220 Speaker 2: Yeah, a tad. 390 00:20:44,460 --> 00:20:46,659 Speaker 1: A lot of money, even for early on. I mean, 391 00:20:46,700 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 1: I can't imagine what sheet music costs, but they were 392 00:20:48,619 --> 00:20:52,830 Speaker 1: selling so much of it. It added up. Irving Berlin, 393 00:20:52,850 --> 00:20:55,510 Speaker 1: I mean, he went on to start his own music 394 00:20:55,530 --> 00:20:58,090 Speaker 1: publishing business, but early on when he was just pumping 395 00:20:58,109 --> 00:21:00,230 Speaker 1: out tunes. In 1917, he made about $ 100, 000 a year 396 00:21:00,270 --> 00:21:09,420 Speaker 1: in royalties. Yeah, that's $ 1917 too, right? Yeah, and these songs, 397 00:21:09,460 --> 00:21:12,380 Speaker 1: these are some standards. It's what's known as the standard 398 00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:19,810 Speaker 1: American songbook. It's an unofficial designation, but they're considered to 399 00:21:19,850 --> 00:21:24,469 Speaker 1: be the classics of the early 20th century. I mean, 400 00:21:24,490 --> 00:21:28,550 Speaker 1: we all still know these songs. Stuff like, Ain't She Sweet? 401 00:21:30,030 --> 00:21:33,730 Speaker 1: I don't know that one. Ain't she sweet? You're walking 402 00:21:33,790 --> 00:21:37,440 Speaker 1: down the street. What? You don't know that song? 403 00:21:37,460 --> 00:21:38,500 Speaker 2: No, that one I've not heard. 404 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:43,260 Speaker 1: Oh, boy. Do you know Babyface? Yes. Got the cutest 405 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:43,900 Speaker 1: little baby face? 406 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,679 Speaker 2: Yes, I love that song. It makes me smile every time. 407 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:49,500 Speaker 1: By the Light of the Silvery Moon, Give My Regards 408 00:21:49,540 --> 00:21:50,260 Speaker 1: to Broadway. 409 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:51,399 Speaker 2: Sure. 410 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,580 Speaker 1: Happy Days Are Here Again. Over There, a lot of 411 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:56,899 Speaker 1: this had to do with early wartime stuff. 412 00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: Right. 413 00:21:57,680 --> 00:21:59,820 Speaker 1: Sweet Georgia Brown, Take Me Out to the Ball Game. 414 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,380 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that in particular, we got to say, that 415 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,770 Speaker 2: was written by two guys, Jack Norworth and Albert Von Tilzer. 416 00:22:06,910 --> 00:22:07,810 Speaker 1: Yeah, 1908. 417 00:22:07,810 --> 00:22:10,570 Speaker 2: And they'd never seen a ball game before. No. 418 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: Well, maybe that's what they were saying. The original lyric was, 419 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,060 Speaker 1: take me out to the ballgame because I've never been. 420 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:17,899 Speaker 2: Exactly. 421 00:22:17,940 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: And they changed that line. 422 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:21,110 Speaker 2: But that was so Tim Pan Alley, where it's like, 423 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,670 Speaker 2: everybody's into baseball right now, so let's make a song 424 00:22:23,710 --> 00:22:26,510 Speaker 2: about baseball. You two, we've never seen a baseball game. 425 00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:29,790 Speaker 2: Doesn't matter. Make me a song. And that's how Take 426 00:22:29,810 --> 00:22:31,010 Speaker 2: Me Out to the Ballgame was formed. 427 00:22:31,410 --> 00:22:32,989 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think under one of the, like you 428 00:22:33,010 --> 00:22:37,149 Speaker 1: said earlier, some of the earliest work were humorous comedy songs. 429 00:22:38,230 --> 00:22:41,209 Speaker 1: One that still Stands out today, I believe, from that 430 00:22:41,250 --> 00:22:44,690 Speaker 1: genre is Yes, We Have No Bananas, which I always 431 00:22:44,710 --> 00:22:45,930 Speaker 1: thought was kind of funny when I was a kid. 432 00:22:46,130 --> 00:22:46,830 Speaker 2: It's a little funny. 433 00:22:46,890 --> 00:22:48,669 Speaker 1: And I guess I still do, if I'm being honest. 434 00:22:50,210 --> 00:22:53,600 Speaker 2: There is also, yeah, you can go down this line 435 00:22:53,740 --> 00:22:57,340 Speaker 2: and there's some pretty substantial songs that were written during 436 00:22:57,380 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 2: this time. And not all of them were standalone. A 437 00:23:00,700 --> 00:23:03,660 Speaker 2: lot of them, like I said earlier, were created for 438 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 2: musical reviews. 439 00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:05,500 Speaker 1: Yeah. 440 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:10,940 Speaker 2: Um, America, the beautiful was written by Irving Berlin for 441 00:23:10,980 --> 00:23:15,030 Speaker 2: a musical review called the yip, yip, yap Hank, which 442 00:23:15,050 --> 00:23:16,669 Speaker 2: no one has heard of. 443 00:23:16,869 --> 00:23:17,710 Speaker 1: No one does that anymore. 444 00:23:17,950 --> 00:23:20,970 Speaker 2: But, um, it was, it was meant to be performed 445 00:23:21,090 --> 00:23:24,859 Speaker 2: and produced by soldiers. I had an eight show run, but, um, 446 00:23:25,770 --> 00:23:29,530 Speaker 2: The song, obviously, America the Beautiful, has survived long beyond 447 00:23:29,570 --> 00:23:34,820 Speaker 2: that because it became an American standard. So these vehicles 448 00:23:34,859 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: that were built around to kind of get the song 449 00:23:37,820 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 2: out there to the public faded away, but the songs 450 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 2: themselves have stood the test of time. 451 00:23:42,820 --> 00:23:46,869 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. I think you pulled it from that production. 452 00:23:46,890 --> 00:23:49,669 Speaker 1: Or was it in the original production or did he 453 00:23:49,710 --> 00:23:50,030 Speaker 1: pull it? 454 00:23:51,290 --> 00:23:52,700 Speaker 2: I think it was in the original one. 455 00:23:53,140 --> 00:23:55,380 Speaker 1: Well, he eventually pulled it out of the production then 456 00:23:56,170 --> 00:23:58,350 Speaker 1: because he thought it was too sentimental. And then that 457 00:23:58,410 --> 00:24:00,470 Speaker 1: song went on to be the one that everyone remembers. 458 00:24:00,670 --> 00:24:02,650 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. You're right. I'm sorry it didn't show 459 00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:05,270 Speaker 2: up in there. But you also said, so you mentioned 460 00:24:05,330 --> 00:24:08,950 Speaker 2: Irving Berlin forming his own publishing house. He was a 461 00:24:09,530 --> 00:24:14,310 Speaker 2: quintessential rags to riches story for Tim Pan Alley. Yeah. 462 00:24:14,510 --> 00:24:18,230 Speaker 2: Where he was like a waiter in a cafe, became 463 00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:21,149 Speaker 2: a song plugger, one of those guys who plays songs 464 00:24:21,230 --> 00:24:25,750 Speaker 2: to basically his marketing projects. couldn't read sheet music, knew 465 00:24:25,790 --> 00:24:30,209 Speaker 2: everything by ear, had a friend transpose the songs he 466 00:24:30,230 --> 00:24:32,909 Speaker 2: came up with into actual written music. 467 00:24:33,109 --> 00:24:35,310 Speaker 1: That's a pretty good little factoid there, that Irving Berlin 468 00:24:35,330 --> 00:24:36,609 Speaker 1: couldn't read or write music. 469 00:24:36,910 --> 00:24:41,010 Speaker 2: Right. And then he became a well-known composer, and then 470 00:24:41,070 --> 00:24:43,389 Speaker 2: he became such a well-known composer, he opened his own 471 00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:46,689 Speaker 2: publishing house and then started making $ 100, 000 a year in royalties. 472 00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:47,310 Speaker 1: Amazing. 473 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:49,949 Speaker 2: There was another guy named Charles K. Harris, who was 474 00:24:50,010 --> 00:24:53,330 Speaker 2: one of the earlier success stories, I think in 1893 475 00:24:53,330 --> 00:24:56,629 Speaker 2: or two he had a song called after the ball 476 00:24:57,210 --> 00:24:59,620 Speaker 2: and he just knew it was a gem because he 477 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 2: offered it to a publisher and they offered him a 478 00:25:01,980 --> 00:25:03,740 Speaker 2: price for it that he was like that's way too 479 00:25:03,780 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 2: low i'm going to set up my own publishing house 480 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,050 Speaker 2: and he did and he started selling it um and 481 00:25:10,350 --> 00:25:14,860 Speaker 2: was making something like $ 25, 000 a week in 1890s money, 482 00:25:14,910 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 2: which is like 700 grand a week. 483 00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:18,139 Speaker 1: Holy cow. 484 00:25:18,260 --> 00:25:21,020 Speaker 2: This guy just went from nobody to 700 grand a week, 485 00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:23,420 Speaker 2: ended up selling 5 million copies of his song after 486 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,540 Speaker 2: the ball. And if you listen to it now, it's 487 00:25:25,580 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 2: not that good, frankly. It's not, but bully for him. 488 00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 1: It's no Ain't She Sweet. 489 00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:33,380 Speaker 2: No. 490 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:38,820 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing, man. People, like popular music, hit the 491 00:25:38,859 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: world like, you know, like a lightning bolt from the beginning. 492 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:50,390 Speaker 2: Yes, because it was so ultra-tailored for the American public. Like, again, 493 00:25:50,430 --> 00:25:53,730 Speaker 2: they would take ragtime, which, it was a Scott Joplin creation. 494 00:25:54,410 --> 00:25:56,949 Speaker 2: And Scott Joplin was the son of a slave. He 495 00:25:56,970 --> 00:25:58,050 Speaker 2: was an African-American. 496 00:25:58,130 --> 00:25:59,410 Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people thought he was white. 497 00:25:59,810 --> 00:26:01,409 Speaker 2: Still to this day, a lot of people think he 498 00:26:01,450 --> 00:26:03,970 Speaker 2: was white. I think so. I think because of his name, frankly. 499 00:26:04,510 --> 00:26:09,540 Speaker 2: And it was the predecessor ragtime was the predecessor to jazz. 500 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,149 Speaker 2: And it had like a real, like feel to a 501 00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:16,429 Speaker 2: real soul. Everybody's heard like some of the original ragtime music, 502 00:26:16,510 --> 00:26:19,609 Speaker 2: like the entertainer, the maple leaf rag. And if you 503 00:26:19,650 --> 00:26:22,150 Speaker 2: can't immediately bring those to mind, just go to YouTube 504 00:26:22,230 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 2: and you'll be like, Oh, okay. Of course I get that. Um, 505 00:26:25,300 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 2: but the idea that, that Tim Pan Alley could just 506 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,620 Speaker 2: kind of come along and take this cool, deep soulful 507 00:26:32,660 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 2: music and, popify it basically to make it palatable to audiences, 508 00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:41,220 Speaker 2: in particular white audiences who had the most money at 509 00:26:41,260 --> 00:26:46,260 Speaker 2: the time. That was why it became so successful. It 510 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,290 Speaker 2: was almost dumbed down. It was music that was dumbed 511 00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:53,950 Speaker 2: down in a way to make it appeal to as 512 00:26:54,150 --> 00:26:55,530 Speaker 2: many people as possible. 513 00:26:55,910 --> 00:27:00,889 Speaker 1: Yeah, or even worse, co-opted by white publishers and producers 514 00:27:00,910 --> 00:27:02,470 Speaker 1: to be used in minstrel shows. 515 00:27:02,869 --> 00:27:03,090 Speaker 2: Yeah. 516 00:27:03,450 --> 00:27:07,179 Speaker 1: This... version of music, this new genre of music that 517 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,740 Speaker 1: was so unique in the Harlem Renaissance by Scott Joplin 518 00:27:09,780 --> 00:27:12,780 Speaker 1: was co-opted for minstrel shows. So shameful. Yeah. 519 00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,899 Speaker 2: So there's a real debate going on now about the 520 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,030 Speaker 2: legacy of Tim Pan Alley in some ways. And some 521 00:27:19,070 --> 00:27:21,630 Speaker 2: people point to it and say, look, these guys were 522 00:27:21,869 --> 00:27:29,430 Speaker 2: churning out the most eye-poppingly racist songs ever. that America 523 00:27:29,470 --> 00:27:30,570 Speaker 2: has ever come up with. 524 00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:32,030 Speaker 1: Yeah, some to be sure. 525 00:27:32,430 --> 00:27:36,410 Speaker 2: They were selling them to the masses, and in doing this, 526 00:27:36,890 --> 00:27:40,190 Speaker 2: because this was the origin of popular music, they were 527 00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:46,669 Speaker 2: really effectively perpetuating racial stereotypes and embedding them more than 528 00:27:46,710 --> 00:27:49,070 Speaker 2: they ever had been before because people were not being, 529 00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:52,230 Speaker 2: mass audiences were being reached like they were with this 530 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,650 Speaker 2: early sheet music. And so in this respect, Timpan Alley 531 00:27:56,670 --> 00:27:59,310 Speaker 2: doesn't deserve to be revered or respected. 532 00:27:59,630 --> 00:28:02,310 Speaker 1: Or designated as a historical landmark is the real fight. 533 00:28:02,570 --> 00:28:06,250 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's, I guess, recently is like late last month, 534 00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 2: I believe, Chuck, there was a landmark commission, city landmark 535 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 2: commission meeting where this was being debated, right? 536 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,439 Speaker 1: Well, yeah. And so, like you said, some people were 537 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 1: saying that on one hand, other people are saying, yeah, 538 00:28:18,020 --> 00:28:21,580 Speaker 1: but so many of these were Jewish immigrants, an ethnic minority, 539 00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,820 Speaker 1: so many of them were African-American songwriters. And Tin Pan 540 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,790 Speaker 1: Alley was also the home to the first black-owned and 541 00:28:28,850 --> 00:28:30,850 Speaker 1: operated music publishing business in the country. 542 00:28:31,250 --> 00:28:33,929 Speaker 2: Yeah, some people are saying, look, like, yes, it was 543 00:28:33,970 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 2: taken and co-opted to be popular, but so were operettas 544 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:40,420 Speaker 2: and ballads. Like, that's just what they did. It wasn't 545 00:28:40,460 --> 00:28:44,260 Speaker 2: meant to be offensive to African-Americans. And as a matter 546 00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:47,260 Speaker 2: of fact, it was basically these Jewish immigrants saying, I 547 00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:50,180 Speaker 2: kind of identify with your plight. I want to preserve 548 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,360 Speaker 2: and celebrate this and expose this music to as many 549 00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,350 Speaker 2: people as possible. And that some people pointed this process 550 00:28:57,390 --> 00:29:01,790 Speaker 2: in Tin Pan Alley as the way that the African-American 551 00:29:01,990 --> 00:29:08,910 Speaker 2: arts became exposed to the larger population of America at 552 00:29:08,970 --> 00:29:09,330 Speaker 2: the time. 553 00:29:09,620 --> 00:29:10,710 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty interesting. 554 00:29:11,020 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, so that debate's going on. That's where the idea 555 00:29:14,380 --> 00:29:16,900 Speaker 2: of whether or not this area should be designated as 556 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 2: an historic landmark is falling, right? 557 00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:22,500 Speaker 1: Yeah, and... Like you said, it's kind of hard to 558 00:29:22,660 --> 00:29:27,340 Speaker 1: pinpoint an actual death date of Tin Pan Alley because 559 00:29:27,380 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: these things like that happen gradually over time. But technology, 560 00:29:31,940 --> 00:29:36,090 Speaker 1: like it has so many other times, kind of killed 561 00:29:36,130 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 1: the notion of Tin Pan Alley, didn't it? 562 00:29:39,050 --> 00:29:39,969 Speaker 2: That's a really good point, right? 563 00:29:40,130 --> 00:29:40,750 Speaker 1: With the radio? 564 00:29:41,030 --> 00:29:45,700 Speaker 2: It was the radio. Radio killed the old-timey sheet music star. 565 00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:47,940 Speaker 1: And video killed the radio star. 566 00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 2: Right, exactly. So again, you didn't need to make sheet 567 00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:54,180 Speaker 2: music any longer, or you certainly didn't have to learn 568 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:56,020 Speaker 2: to play sheet music at home if you wanted to 569 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,580 Speaker 2: enjoy music, if you could just buy a radio. 570 00:29:58,940 --> 00:30:01,740 Speaker 1: Yeah, people quit buying pianos and it's kind of sad. 571 00:30:02,460 --> 00:30:04,510 Speaker 2: It is sad. It would be nice if everybody was 572 00:30:04,550 --> 00:30:06,830 Speaker 2: walking around and knew how to play a piano. Like 573 00:30:06,970 --> 00:30:09,130 Speaker 2: hotel lounges would be a lot more interesting, right? 574 00:30:09,410 --> 00:30:09,610 Speaker 1: Yeah. 575 00:30:09,890 --> 00:30:13,410 Speaker 2: But I mean, once the radio came along, everybody said, 576 00:30:13,550 --> 00:30:15,940 Speaker 2: so long, sheet music. I hated you all along, but 577 00:30:15,980 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: you were my only option. Now I can listen to 578 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 2: like Benny Goodman and all of these other cats who 579 00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 2: are super hip and really good at what they're doing. 580 00:30:23,780 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 2: And I want to listen to their music. And not 581 00:30:26,660 --> 00:30:30,890 Speaker 2: only did technology kill Tim Panale in this sheet music 582 00:30:30,930 --> 00:30:36,410 Speaker 2: publishing industry, but it also changed the genre a little bit. 583 00:30:36,450 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 2: It kind of skewed it more into swing and Big band. Yeah, 584 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 2: big band. Some of the stuff that came out of 585 00:30:43,220 --> 00:30:47,680 Speaker 2: the 30s onward, that was really kind of where that 586 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,530 Speaker 2: transition went. Yeah. 587 00:30:49,570 --> 00:30:52,490 Speaker 1: Have you ever been somewhere where they have a public 588 00:30:52,550 --> 00:30:56,110 Speaker 1: piano and seen someone just walk by and sit down 589 00:30:56,150 --> 00:30:56,870 Speaker 1: and blow minds? 590 00:30:57,310 --> 00:30:58,870 Speaker 2: Didn't you see Greg Allman do that? 591 00:30:58,890 --> 00:31:03,940 Speaker 1: Oh, my God, no. if you know someone who saw that, 592 00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:05,979 Speaker 1: please try and remember who it was. Cause I need 593 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:06,610 Speaker 1: to hear that story. 594 00:31:06,790 --> 00:31:09,030 Speaker 2: I'll try to remember. I can't remember who it was. 595 00:31:09,070 --> 00:31:10,750 Speaker 1: That's pretty amazing. Okay. 596 00:31:11,930 --> 00:31:14,010 Speaker 2: I don't think I'm making this up. Let me, let me, 597 00:31:14,110 --> 00:31:17,709 Speaker 2: let me go back through my specific mental Rolodex, but 598 00:31:17,750 --> 00:31:18,830 Speaker 2: have you ever seen that? 599 00:31:19,390 --> 00:31:21,790 Speaker 1: Sure. Just like you're, I mean, not Greg Allman, but 600 00:31:21,830 --> 00:31:24,230 Speaker 1: I've just seen your regular average person sit down at 601 00:31:24,260 --> 00:31:27,940 Speaker 1: a piano and like, wow, someone, uh, New York does 602 00:31:27,980 --> 00:31:29,780 Speaker 1: this from time to time. They'll have them on a 603 00:31:29,820 --> 00:31:32,420 Speaker 1: sidewalk or in a park or something. And, in Atlanta, 604 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:34,380 Speaker 1: they have one over in Atlantic station. I've seen people 605 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,100 Speaker 1: do it there. Uh, and it's always just really cool. 606 00:31:37,260 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: And that makes me miss the fact that piano, like 607 00:31:40,940 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: a lot more people used to learn piano than they 608 00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: do now. 609 00:31:44,060 --> 00:31:46,340 Speaker 2: I think I would love to know how to play 610 00:31:46,380 --> 00:31:49,940 Speaker 2: the piano for that very reason. Cause I'd love to 611 00:31:49,980 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 2: be able to sit down and. 612 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,300 Speaker 1: Just play that guy. It's so bad. 613 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: Right. Someday Chuck, it's not too late. 614 00:31:54,780 --> 00:31:56,550 Speaker 1: I remember the first time I saw it was at 615 00:31:56,590 --> 00:32:00,890 Speaker 1: a student council retreat in high school. There was this one, uh, 616 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: you know, all the student councils from the county get 617 00:32:03,660 --> 00:32:05,420 Speaker 1: together over the course of a weekend or a week 618 00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: and do stupid stuff and learn about leadership. But there 619 00:32:10,460 --> 00:32:12,700 Speaker 1: was this, there's always like this one guy on student 620 00:32:12,740 --> 00:32:15,900 Speaker 1: council at another school where you're like, man, he didn't 621 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:17,150 Speaker 1: seem like a student council type. 622 00:32:17,470 --> 00:32:18,130 Speaker 2: He seems like he's 30. 623 00:32:18,130 --> 00:32:21,910 Speaker 1: This guy did. And he was on student council at 624 00:32:21,930 --> 00:32:24,290 Speaker 1: some other school, but he was like, you know, had 625 00:32:24,310 --> 00:32:27,190 Speaker 1: like the rat t-shirt and was just sort of a, 626 00:32:27,450 --> 00:32:28,490 Speaker 1: like a dirty metal head. 627 00:32:28,510 --> 00:32:30,270 Speaker 2: The bad boy of student council? 628 00:32:30,350 --> 00:32:33,150 Speaker 1: He totally was. And, There was a piano in one 629 00:32:33,170 --> 00:32:35,290 Speaker 1: of the lobbies of the dormitories where we stayed at 630 00:32:35,330 --> 00:32:38,750 Speaker 1: Berry College in Rome, Georgia. And on the very last day, 631 00:32:39,270 --> 00:32:40,650 Speaker 1: there were a bunch of people hanging out in there. 632 00:32:40,670 --> 00:32:43,150 Speaker 1: And this dude goes over and sits down and just 633 00:32:43,490 --> 00:32:48,060 Speaker 1: crushes it. And I remember seeing the girls in the 634 00:32:48,100 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 1: room and thinking, that guy has got it all going on. Right. Like, 635 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: that's the key, man. 636 00:32:54,980 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: And that boy in the rat T-shirt grew up to 637 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 2: be Greg Allman. Have you ever been to Sig Gold's request. 638 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: Room in New York? No, what's that? 639 00:33:06,820 --> 00:33:09,900 Speaker 2: Yumi's friend Joe McGinty owns it. He's co-owner of it, 640 00:33:09,900 --> 00:33:13,270 Speaker 2: and he plays piano there. It's just like sing-along piano karaoke. 641 00:33:13,790 --> 00:33:14,170 Speaker 1: Oh, wow. 642 00:33:14,430 --> 00:33:16,850 Speaker 2: And it is amazing. I cannot believe you haven't been 643 00:33:16,890 --> 00:33:18,270 Speaker 2: there yet. You have. So. 644 00:33:18,820 --> 00:33:21,140 Speaker 1: Does one person play the piano and everyone sings along? 645 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,460 Speaker 2: Joe McGinty plays. And then, no, people can sing along 646 00:33:24,500 --> 00:33:26,340 Speaker 2: if you want, but it's really one person going up 647 00:33:26,380 --> 00:33:29,270 Speaker 2: there and doing karaoke with Joe accompanying you on the piano. 648 00:33:29,550 --> 00:33:32,290 Speaker 1: Oh, okay. Well, I've done the rock and roll live 649 00:33:32,330 --> 00:33:33,510 Speaker 1: band karaoke before. 650 00:33:34,090 --> 00:33:34,450 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah? 651 00:33:34,510 --> 00:33:35,910 Speaker 1: Here in Atlanta, which is a lot of fun. 652 00:33:36,170 --> 00:33:38,250 Speaker 2: Okay. Where do you do that? 653 00:33:40,030 --> 00:33:42,470 Speaker 1: Somewhere in the Highlands, I think. The Dark Horse, maybe? 654 00:33:42,690 --> 00:33:43,860 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, that sounds right. 655 00:33:44,010 --> 00:33:45,470 Speaker 1: Yeah, I went for my birthday a couple of years 656 00:33:45,530 --> 00:33:48,670 Speaker 1: ago and did Cheap Trick's Surrender and did a pretty 657 00:33:48,690 --> 00:33:49,850 Speaker 1: good job, if I may say so. 658 00:33:50,150 --> 00:33:52,970 Speaker 2: Is that Surrender, parentheses, Dream Police? 659 00:33:53,950 --> 00:33:55,190 Speaker 1: No, those are two different songs. 660 00:33:55,430 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Is it Surrender, parentheses, I Want You to 661 00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 2: Want Me? 662 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:01,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the one. 663 00:34:01,980 --> 00:34:03,540 Speaker 2: Okay. I've heard that song before. 664 00:34:03,580 --> 00:34:07,380 Speaker 1: But it's funny, the one in Atlanta, there's the DJ 665 00:34:07,550 --> 00:34:08,090 Speaker 1: English Nick. 666 00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 2: No. Wait, was he on the radio, like radio DJ? Yeah, 667 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 2: he still is. Sure. 668 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,180 Speaker 1: English Nick in Atlanta. 669 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:15,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. 670 00:34:15,020 --> 00:34:20,489 Speaker 1: He hosts it, and he is the emergency backup if 671 00:34:20,510 --> 00:34:21,109 Speaker 1: you're no good. 672 00:34:21,130 --> 00:34:22,149 Speaker 2: Oh, yeah? 673 00:34:22,170 --> 00:34:24,750 Speaker 1: Because being bad at karaoke is no fun, but being 674 00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:27,430 Speaker 1: bad at live band karaoke is really no fun for anyone. 675 00:34:28,150 --> 00:34:30,950 Speaker 1: So he stands back there, and if you're not very good, 676 00:34:31,250 --> 00:34:33,569 Speaker 1: he's singing along with you, and he will just give 677 00:34:33,590 --> 00:34:36,070 Speaker 1: the signal to sort of do a little... Upping of 678 00:34:36,130 --> 00:34:38,130 Speaker 1: his vocals and lowering of the other vocals. 679 00:34:38,450 --> 00:34:40,969 Speaker 2: Is it like the slice across your neck like that? 680 00:34:41,070 --> 00:34:43,530 Speaker 1: No, I mean, I think it's just like an eye signal. 681 00:34:43,810 --> 00:34:44,180 Speaker 2: I got you. 682 00:34:44,810 --> 00:34:46,890 Speaker 1: And I remember being nervous. I was like, oh, man, 683 00:34:46,930 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 1: if they bring up English Nick during Surrender, I'm going 684 00:34:49,540 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: to be mortified. But they didn't. And afterward, he gave 685 00:34:52,980 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: me a nod like, good job, buddy. 686 00:34:54,980 --> 00:34:56,720 Speaker 2: Oh, you got the nod from English Nick. 687 00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:57,739 Speaker 1: Yeah, it means a lot. 688 00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:59,580 Speaker 2: I have the opposite story. 689 00:34:59,900 --> 00:35:00,460 Speaker 1: Oh, what happened? 690 00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,350 Speaker 2: I went to Claremont Lounge to do karaoke years back. Okay. 691 00:35:04,989 --> 00:35:06,850 Speaker 2: Chose to do Darling Nikki. 692 00:35:07,590 --> 00:35:08,130 Speaker 1: Oh, interesting. 693 00:35:08,290 --> 00:35:12,529 Speaker 2: In the middle, the karaoke DJ breaks in and goes, 694 00:35:12,590 --> 00:35:14,870 Speaker 2: it's like William Shatner singing, isn't. 695 00:35:14,710 --> 00:35:16,549 Speaker 1: It, everybody? Oh, my God. 696 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,380 Speaker 2: Yumi was there supporting, dancing, but really just hanging on 697 00:35:21,420 --> 00:35:22,580 Speaker 2: by her fingernails, you know? 698 00:35:22,780 --> 00:35:24,820 Speaker 1: You got stopped and insulted mid-song. 699 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:26,940 Speaker 2: Mid-song, but I finished, buddy. 700 00:35:27,140 --> 00:35:27,400 Speaker 1: Good. 701 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:28,180 Speaker 2: Yeah, I finished. 702 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,900 Speaker 1: I would literally pay $ 100 to have seen that. 703 00:35:33,820 --> 00:35:36,570 Speaker 2: I wager that it would have been worth $ 250. Okay. 704 00:35:38,370 --> 00:35:39,710 Speaker 2: It was pretty bad. 705 00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:42,989 Speaker 1: Do we have anything else on Tin Pan Alley? 706 00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:45,290 Speaker 2: I forgot what we were talking about, Chuck. 707 00:35:45,430 --> 00:35:47,410 Speaker 1: Well, we're not going to get into it here. We 708 00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:49,250 Speaker 1: should do a full show on ASCAP, though. 709 00:35:49,770 --> 00:35:52,899 Speaker 2: Yeah, because yet another thing that Irving Berlin did was 710 00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 2: create ASCAP, the American Society of Composers and Performers, right? 711 00:35:58,060 --> 00:35:58,940 Speaker 1: I think producers. 712 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 2: Producers, okay. Man, I didn't even have it in front 713 00:36:01,180 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 2: of me. But they basically... protect and register copyrights for artists. 714 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. It's gotten so convoluted to these days. Yeah. Yeah. 715 00:36:11,780 --> 00:36:13,500 Speaker 2: I think it definitely deserves its own thing, but that 716 00:36:13,540 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 2: was another thing that was born out of Tim Pan alley. Yeah. 717 00:36:16,739 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: And you know what? I am living in the future 718 00:36:18,540 --> 00:36:24,259 Speaker 1: now because I have a turntable now. Finally, again, after many, 719 00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:26,980 Speaker 1: many years of not having one that I can play 720 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: wirelessly throughout all the speakers in my home. Oh, isn't 721 00:36:31,260 --> 00:36:31,779 Speaker 1: that amazing? 722 00:36:32,050 --> 00:36:33,280 Speaker 2: That is the future for sure. 723 00:36:33,660 --> 00:36:35,780 Speaker 1: That you can actually do that. And it sounds great. 724 00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:38,219 Speaker 1: And now I just went to the record store for 725 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,029 Speaker 1: the first time in a long time yesterday and bought 726 00:36:41,030 --> 00:36:46,910 Speaker 1: 13 records. I traded in probably 500 CDs to get 727 00:36:46,910 --> 00:36:50,910 Speaker 1: 13 records. He was like, I'll give you 130 bucks 728 00:36:51,210 --> 00:36:52,450 Speaker 1: for the lot. And I was like, fine. 729 00:36:52,969 --> 00:36:55,750 Speaker 2: Fine. Just get these stupid 90 CDs away from me. 730 00:36:55,950 --> 00:36:57,609 Speaker 1: No, they're great. But it was just I felt like 731 00:36:57,650 --> 00:37:00,790 Speaker 1: I should pay him to take all these off my hands. 732 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 2: Did you still have the jewel cases? 733 00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:03,379 Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. 734 00:37:03,420 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 2: They were all jeweled up. 735 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,760 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I bought records for the first time. 736 00:37:07,820 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: And I'm going to make that a, when we go 737 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: on tour now and when I travel, I'm going to 738 00:37:11,860 --> 00:37:13,870 Speaker 1: make it a point to go into local record stores again. 739 00:37:14,270 --> 00:37:15,150 Speaker 2: I think that's a great idea. 740 00:37:15,170 --> 00:37:17,470 Speaker 1: I really, really had a good time thumbing through records. 741 00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:18,169 Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun. 742 00:37:18,450 --> 00:37:19,469 Speaker 2: I'll go with you. Text me. 743 00:37:19,710 --> 00:37:20,230 Speaker 1: Yeah, let's do it. 744 00:37:20,489 --> 00:37:25,750 Speaker 2: Okay. I think that's it for Tim Pan Alley. RIP 745 00:37:25,770 --> 00:37:28,250 Speaker 2: Tim Pan Alley, depending on your viewpoint, I guess. 746 00:37:28,590 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, there needs to be a great, I know there 747 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: was a movie in the 40s called Tin Pan Alley, 748 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,540 Speaker 1: but someone should do a really good look at the 749 00:37:36,620 --> 00:37:39,840 Speaker 1: early burgeoning film, I'm sorry, movie industry. 750 00:37:39,860 --> 00:37:40,240 Speaker 2: Almost. 751 00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:42,240 Speaker 1: Oh boy, music industry. 752 00:37:42,260 --> 00:37:42,819 Speaker 2: There you go. 753 00:37:43,140 --> 00:37:44,180 Speaker 1: About Tin Pan Alley, that'd be great. 754 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,780 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that would be great. There's so many characters involved. 755 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: Just put Hugh Jackman and Sharknado in it. Yep. And 756 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:53,500 Speaker 1: we're all good. And by the way, you got called 757 00:37:53,540 --> 00:37:55,480 Speaker 1: out for bringing back Bread. 758 00:37:56,460 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 2: I did. I said in some episode that, I think 759 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,540 Speaker 2: the Diving Bell episode, that we should bring bread back, 760 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:03,460 Speaker 2: and I guess that's what the kids all say now? 761 00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,900 Speaker 1: I didn't realize that, but at least 10 people emailed 762 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,680 Speaker 1: and said, yeah, millennials are talking about getting that bread. 763 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:10,439 Speaker 2: Yep. 764 00:38:10,540 --> 00:38:11,180 Speaker 1: It's like, they are? 765 00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,719 Speaker 2: I guess so. I like to think that I had 766 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,140 Speaker 2: absolutely nothing to do with that. 767 00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 1: No, I bet you were the seed. 768 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:18,070 Speaker 2: Do you think so? 769 00:38:18,739 --> 00:38:19,319 Speaker 1: You never know, man. 770 00:38:19,530 --> 00:38:21,529 Speaker 2: That'd be cool. Before we go, though, Chuck, I do 771 00:38:21,570 --> 00:38:22,290 Speaker 2: have one more thing. 772 00:38:22,650 --> 00:38:22,930 Speaker 1: What's that? 773 00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:24,730 Speaker 2: I have to give a shout out to what I 774 00:38:24,770 --> 00:38:28,370 Speaker 2: consider the greatest song to come out of Tim Pan Alley. 775 00:38:29,210 --> 00:38:32,609 Speaker 2: And I believe it was an Irving Berlin song. Yeah, 776 00:38:32,660 --> 00:38:35,239 Speaker 2: it was. Let's Have Another Cup of Coffee. Have you 777 00:38:35,260 --> 00:38:35,819 Speaker 2: heard that song? 778 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: We used that for something, didn't we? 779 00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 2: I don't remember. We probably did because it's prominent in 780 00:38:41,260 --> 00:38:43,259 Speaker 2: one of my favorite movies of all time, Paper Moon. 781 00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:45,560 Speaker 2: That was a great song. I love that song so much. 782 00:38:46,550 --> 00:38:48,310 Speaker 2: If you haven't ever heard that song, go listen to 783 00:38:48,350 --> 00:38:52,450 Speaker 2: it because it's one of the most just blindly optimistic 784 00:38:52,510 --> 00:38:53,470 Speaker 2: songs of all time. 785 00:38:53,810 --> 00:38:54,510 Speaker 1: And it's about coffee. 786 00:38:54,969 --> 00:38:58,810 Speaker 2: Yep, and pie. Okay, now that's it. Now I've got 787 00:38:58,850 --> 00:39:01,350 Speaker 2: nothing else. If you want to know more about Tin 788 00:39:01,370 --> 00:39:04,950 Speaker 2: Pan Alley, you can go read up on it and 789 00:39:04,989 --> 00:39:07,610 Speaker 2: maybe follow whether it's going to get designated as an 790 00:39:07,660 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 2: historic landmark or not. We'll find out. In the meantime, 791 00:39:11,380 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 2: it's time for Listener Mail. 792 00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: So this is just a very sweet email from someone. 793 00:39:18,580 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: Hey guys, I'm sure you receive emails like this all 794 00:39:20,380 --> 00:39:22,430 Speaker 1: the time, but I would be remiss if I didn't 795 00:39:22,489 --> 00:39:25,049 Speaker 1: thank you for all the wonderful work you do. I've 796 00:39:25,070 --> 00:39:27,400 Speaker 1: had a really tough time with mental illness. And there 797 00:39:27,420 --> 00:39:29,960 Speaker 1: have been a lot of nights your wonderful podcast, Staved Off. 798 00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: panic attacks or worse thank you for keeping me calm 799 00:39:33,340 --> 00:39:35,420 Speaker 1: and educated and thank you for making me feel safe 800 00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,020 Speaker 1: even in perilous circumstances thank you for giving me something 801 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,320 Speaker 1: to talk about when my depression has kept me in 802 00:39:41,340 --> 00:39:45,520 Speaker 1: a fog without your massive backlog and seemingly endless supply 803 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,450 Speaker 1: of fresh fascinating subjects i surely would be lost spend 804 00:39:49,489 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: some time researching, and I can truly appreciate just how 805 00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: much time and energy go into becoming familiar enough with 806 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 1: something to explain it as succinctly as you guys do. 807 00:39:58,460 --> 00:40:01,580 Speaker 1: You're superheroes and rock stars. From the bottom of my heart, 808 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,130 Speaker 1: thank you for the wonderful work you do. You've truly 809 00:40:04,190 --> 00:40:08,570 Speaker 1: saved me. Kindest and warmest regards, Georgia. That is really lovely, Georgia. 810 00:40:08,610 --> 00:40:10,450 Speaker 1: If we're ever in a town near you, you are 811 00:40:10,710 --> 00:40:11,510 Speaker 1: guest listed. 812 00:40:11,890 --> 00:40:15,140 Speaker 2: Yes. Wow, Chuck, I think that was a really good idea. Yeah. 813 00:40:15,810 --> 00:40:17,950 Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, Georgia. That was a very sweet email. 814 00:40:17,969 --> 00:40:20,469 Speaker 2: We appreciate it. We're glad we could help in some 815 00:40:20,530 --> 00:40:24,170 Speaker 2: small measure. Thank you very much for the kudos. If 816 00:40:24,250 --> 00:40:26,830 Speaker 2: you want to send us kudos, we love that kind 817 00:40:26,870 --> 00:40:27,109 Speaker 2: of thing. 818 00:40:27,390 --> 00:40:28,850 Speaker 1: Including kudos to the candy bar. 819 00:40:29,630 --> 00:40:30,649 Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that. 820 00:40:30,670 --> 00:40:31,690 Speaker 1: Send us a kudos. 821 00:40:32,010 --> 00:40:32,710 Speaker 2: They were great. 822 00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:33,950 Speaker 1: Yeah. 823 00:40:34,250 --> 00:40:36,370 Speaker 2: Actually, I don't know if somebody sent us one, if 824 00:40:36,410 --> 00:40:37,530 Speaker 2: it would still be so great. 825 00:40:38,130 --> 00:40:38,750 Speaker 1: Are they not around? 826 00:40:39,650 --> 00:40:42,330 Speaker 2: No, I think they would have been manufactured in 1986 827 00:40:42,330 --> 00:40:43,750 Speaker 2: or something like that. I don't know. 828 00:40:44,910 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: Keep up with the candy bar scene. 829 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,180 Speaker 2: That's what i'm saying they're not around anymore yeah no 830 00:40:48,260 --> 00:40:51,419 Speaker 2: i know okay so uh wow that was a little 831 00:40:51,460 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 2: sidetrack on kudos wasn't it yes uh if you want 832 00:40:53,940 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 2: to get in touch with us you can go on 833 00:40:55,020 --> 00:40:57,040 Speaker 2: to stuff you should know.com and find all of our 834 00:40:57,140 --> 00:40:59,660 Speaker 2: social links there and you can also send us an 835 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:05,740 Speaker 2: email to stuff podcast at iheartradio.com. 836 00:41:07,610 --> 00:41:09,710 Speaker 1: Stuff you should know is a production of iheartradio's how 837 00:41:09,730 --> 00:41:13,339 Speaker 1: stuff works For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app. 838 00:41:13,620 --> 00:41:16,070 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.