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Speaker 1: Trust me.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived.

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Speaker 1: To you, do you think that one person has all

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Speaker 1: the answers? Don't welcome to trust me. The podcast about cults,

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Speaker 1: extreme belief, and the abuse of power from two not

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Speaker 1: sociopaths who've actually experienced it. I am Lola Blanc.

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Speaker 3: I am Megan Elizabeth. Do you think you have any

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Speaker 3: sociopathic tendencies?

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Speaker 1: No? And I will answer that question in a moment.

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Speaker 1: Actually I don't know. But first today, our guest is

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Speaker 1: Emmy Thomas. Yes it is m E but pronounced Emmy

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Speaker 1: and her girlfriend Aria, both of which are fake names

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Speaker 1: because Emmy and Aria are both sociopaths, or, as we'll learn,

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Speaker 1: as a more universal term, psychopaths. Emmy is the author

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Speaker 1: of a book called Confessions of a Sociopath, and she

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Speaker 1: also is the founder of sociopathworld dot com. They're gonna

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Speaker 1: tell us about how they met, what love is like

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Speaker 1: for a sociopath, why for them it has included blood play,

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Speaker 1: and lots more about their fascinating love story.

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Speaker 3: We're also going to talk about how malignant behaviors are

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Speaker 3: not necessarily inherently caused by psychopathy, whether psychopaths can be rehabilitated,

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Speaker 3: and how having a clear sense of your own boundaries

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Speaker 3: is better than trying to spot a psychopath.

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Speaker 4: Psychopathy that's not a weird should be real. All right,

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Speaker 4: let's keep going, Megan.

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Speaker 1: I don't think we've talked about the fact that you

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Speaker 1: were a therapist.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that is kind of weird. Huh. I guess that's

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Speaker 4: a cult all in a Sorry, I guess that's a

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Speaker 4: cult all in and of itself. Who yeah, I did.

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Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about psychology stuff and you were

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Speaker 1: literally I mean, actually, what was your degree level?

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Speaker 4: Masters?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you have a fucking master's in psychology and this

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Speaker 1: has never come up on our podcast before, which is weird.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, but you hated it. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: M the moment that they were like, well, now you

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Speaker 3: have to determine if this boy should stay with his

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Speaker 3: family or leave, I was like, well, I think I

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Speaker 3: will quit.

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Speaker 1: Excuse me. Is that a thing that was demanded of

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Speaker 1: you to make choices for your patients?

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Speaker 3: Yes, well it would be like court cases, you know,

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Speaker 3: where I had to give my opinion.

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Speaker 4: And I was just like no, I just kind of no.

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Speaker 3: I guess that probably sounds like I'm an asshole, but

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Speaker 3: I just couldn't make those kind of decisions when I

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Speaker 3: can barely decide what to wear.

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Speaker 1: I think that's totally fair. That's a lot of pressure. Yeah, Megan,

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Speaker 1: tell me what the cultiest thing that happened to you

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Speaker 1: this week was?

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Speaker 3: Okay, So the beauty industry has been on my mind

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Speaker 3: because obviously that thing went viral where it's like, this

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Speaker 3: is what old people do, and it was like side parts,

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Speaker 3: skinny jeans, all that shit.

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Speaker 4: Did you see that?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, yes, and I wanted to die.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it was just awful.

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Speaker 3: But then I also saw that girls are starting to

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Speaker 3: use makeup that's the special concealer that makes it look

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Speaker 3: like you.

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Speaker 4: Have circles under your eyes so.

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Speaker 3: It looks like you've been partying all night and shit.

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Speaker 3: And I was just like, I always knew the beauty

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Speaker 3: industry was a cult, but this is getting real culty.

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Speaker 1: I mean, don't you think it's more TikTok that's getting

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Speaker 1: real culty? Though? I feel like one TikTok will go

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Speaker 1: viral and suddenly the entire culture is supposed to follow. Yes,

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Speaker 1: like we can't use the cry laughing emoji anymore because

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Speaker 1: one TikTok said that it makes you ancient.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I mean, that's never going to stop for me

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Speaker 4: because it's my favorite. But em yeah, you know, I

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Speaker 4: don't know. I was just like, holy shit, this is crazy.

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Speaker 1: I mean, listen, if the beauty standards keep changing to

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Speaker 1: accommodate what is actually wrong with my face? I am

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Speaker 1: all for that. If people are like, hey, dark circles

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Speaker 1: are beautiful, now, don't can we also add that naso

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Speaker 1: labial shadow is attractive cellula appreciate it?

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Speaker 4: Yes, Why haven't we just done that yet?

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Speaker 1: I think the kids have to decide. We have to

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Speaker 1: trick the kids into thinking that my cellulite is.

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Speaker 4: We could call it very attractive, like lag waves. Do

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Speaker 4: you have waves? Oh my god, you have to have

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Speaker 4: leg waves like waves, but.

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Speaker 1: Waves, butt waves and legwaves.

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Speaker 4: People get plastic surgery to get waves put in their butt. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know. It's just it's psychotic.

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Speaker 3: So it bums me out that people are feeling bad

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Speaker 3: about it, because I was also reading that all these

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Speaker 3: newscasters like change their part and all this shit. I

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Speaker 3: don't know, everybody looks stupid with the middle part to me,

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Speaker 3: so it makes me sad.

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Speaker 1: So side parts make you old, just like any side

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Speaker 1: part no accounting for the type of hairstyle. No, I

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Speaker 1: don't know. Some bobs with like a slight side part

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Speaker 1: are gorgeous. They're wrong. The kids don't know.

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Speaker 3: The kids don't know. The thing is, we can't dress

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Speaker 3: like Billie Eilish. We're adults. So they've set up a

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Speaker 3: world where we have to fail because if we're dressed

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Speaker 3: like that, we would look like fucking.

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Speaker 4: What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. All I do is work, Megan, what

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Speaker 1: are you working on this podcast? Oh?

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Speaker 3: Man?

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Speaker 1: I also? I mean, I have just like fucking projects,

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Speaker 1: you know, with Fatale Collective, my horror collective. Shout out

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Speaker 1: all female horror filmmaking.

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Speaker 4: That's what I was trying to make, you say, shout

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Speaker 4: out that film.

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Speaker 1: We are working on our future anthology right now, so

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Speaker 1: that's been taking up a lot of energy. And I'm

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Speaker 1: also trying to finish my own feature, which is taking

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Speaker 1: forever because I have too many things going on. And

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Speaker 1: I'm writing now music, and I'm trying to get a

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Speaker 1: short film made Okay, which is a political horror and

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Speaker 1: I love it, but I'm like drowning under the amount

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Speaker 1: of tasks that I have to do every day, this this,

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Speaker 1: this past week. That wasn't actually going to be my

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Speaker 1: cultiest thing, but in a way it is.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm a workaholic.

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Speaker 1: I mean no, I am. Yeah, I was gonna make

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Speaker 1: some excuse.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that would just be stupid. Yeah, no, you are

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Speaker 4: for sure.

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Speaker 3: But that does bring me back to do you think

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Speaker 3: you have any sociopathic tendencies?

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Speaker 1: I don't think so, but sometimes a little.

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Speaker 4: Bit, like they would say something I was like, ooh, okay.

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Speaker 1: Like as an okay, you don't know.

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Speaker 4: I would be like, I've done that.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. I mean, I definitely have caught myself here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: I say, here's the thing too much. I need to

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Speaker 1: stop saying here's the thing. There have definitely been many

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Speaker 1: moments in my life where I'm noticing that I'm not

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Speaker 1: being empathetic toward people. I'm like not giving a shit

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Speaker 1: about others and I'm only thinking about myself, or I'm

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Speaker 1: just like have no sympathy. But I like notice that

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Speaker 1: and then I feel bad about it.

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Speaker 4: Oh, you're definitely not a sociopath.

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Speaker 3: I was just wondering, you know what parts of it

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Speaker 3: you struggle with because I'm guessing we all have a

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Speaker 3: little bit and us totally.

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Speaker 1: There's actually one thing I've been finding really interesting to

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Speaker 1: think about, which is, so I've noticed that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've become more financially stable. I've mentioned this before. In

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Speaker 1: the past two years, I've been pretty financially stable in

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Speaker 1: a way that I never was before. And as that happened,

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Speaker 1: I've noticed what's also happened in my brain is like,

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Speaker 1: the more secure I feel. And by the way, this

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Speaker 1: industry is totally unpredictable, so I'm not expecting this to last.

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Speaker 1: But right now I feel secure, and the more secure

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Speaker 1: I feel, the less I think about other people, which

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Speaker 1: is the opposite of what you want. What you want

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Speaker 1: is to finally get to a place where you feel comfortable.

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Speaker 1: And then you're like, Okay, now that I feel secure,

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Speaker 1: how can I help other people? But so I looked

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Speaker 1: it up, and I knew this vaguely, but I looked

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Speaker 1: it up and it has been There have been study

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Speaker 1: after study that show that more money directly correlates to

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Speaker 1: less empathy. And so I am like, oh, maybe I'm

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Speaker 1: becoming like slightly more sociopathic just as a function of

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Speaker 1: like not being fucking broke and freaking out about rent

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Speaker 1: and having my phone constantly get shut off, and I

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Speaker 1: hate that. Right about humanity, it's nobody's exempt from that.

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Speaker 1: The one caveat here is that apparently, if wealthy people

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Speaker 1: are exposed to like a humanizing documentary that shows them

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Speaker 1: the struggle or the plight of others, then their empathy

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Speaker 1: levels like kind of come back to normal.

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Speaker 4: I see.

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Speaker 1: So it's about like constantly reminding yourself that other people

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Speaker 1: are struggling and not getting stuck in your like bubble

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Speaker 1: of privilege or whatever. But yeah, so definitely I've become

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Speaker 1: more sociopathic just as a byproduct of becoming financially stable.

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Speaker 1: But I am trying to fight it. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: it's the worst.

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Speaker 3: Well should we go and listen to what people who

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Speaker 3: can't fight it live?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's talk to these ladies. Oh my god, here

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Speaker 1: we go. Welcome Emmy and Aria. Can you both just

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Speaker 1: say in your name just so we can identify the

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Speaker 1: differences in your voices.

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Speaker 5: I'm Emmy, I'm Maria.

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Speaker 1: So you are both high functioning sociopaths who are actually

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Speaker 1: in a relationship. We wanted to have you on because

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Speaker 1: sociopaths come up a lot on this podcast when we

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Speaker 1: talk about manipulation, we talk about people who don't really

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Speaker 1: have a conscience. So, first of all, can you define

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Speaker 1: sociopathy for us? What are the hallmarks? What does it

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Speaker 1: look like? Yeah, I will start a little bit about this.

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Speaker 2: I think that kind of the dominant characteristics of a

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Speaker 2: sociopath are kind of cognitively. They're not experiencing empathy the

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Speaker 2: way other people are. They can, you know, put themselves

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Speaker 2: in your shoes psychologically and kind of understand your feelings,

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Speaker 2: but they're not going to have what's called effective empathy,

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Speaker 2: which is you know, you see somebody else crying and sad,

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Speaker 2: and then you know inside the psychopath, they're not going

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Speaker 2: to feel sad. You can still feel compassion, but you're

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Speaker 2: not going to It's not going to be an automatic thing.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be something that.

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Speaker 2: You have to choose to do and put in a

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Speaker 2: little bit of effort. So I think that's a dominant characteristic.

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Speaker 2: I think there are some other sub kind of characteristics.

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Speaker 2: You tend to be less connected to your own emotional

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Speaker 2: state too, so you're less connected to other people's emotional state,

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Speaker 2: but you're also less connected to your own emotional state,

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Speaker 2: and I think because of that, you don't really feel

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Speaker 2: kind of these more complex feelings like guilt.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe the primitive.

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Speaker 2: Emotions of like anger, joy, frustration, those are like really

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Speaker 2: common to feel, but these ones that require like a

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Speaker 2: context to it, like you nostalgia, Yeah, nostalgia is a

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Speaker 2: good one. Yeah, the ones that require some like I think,

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Speaker 2: sense of self, some sense of your own identity, so

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Speaker 2: something like, you know, I'm an honest person, that's my identity.

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Speaker 2: I told a lie and now I feel guilty because

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Speaker 2: I have violated that self conception. Most sociopaths don't really

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Speaker 2: have a self conception like that, or it's it's not rigid,

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Speaker 2: it's very flexible, so that they don't feel guilt.

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Speaker 1: I mean a lot of people are like they don't

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Speaker 1: feel guilt.

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Speaker 2: That's terrible, but it's just kind of like a little

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Speaker 2: bit of a symptom of not having this very strong

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Speaker 2: sense of self or sense of their own identity. And

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Speaker 2: I think that's another kind of explain some of the

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Speaker 2: other characteristics that they are kind of charming, you know,

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Speaker 2: they're like a fa million yeah, glib, bold, they're fearless,

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Speaker 2: they don't seem to take into consideration the risks that

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Speaker 2: are happening around them, or the feelings and emotions of others,

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Speaker 2: or the safety honestly physical or emotional safety of others.

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Speaker 2: They kind of just I mean, they can be very

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Speaker 2: forward thinking, but they're not.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: It's it's like, uh, you know, they themselves don't feel

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Speaker 2: harmed that much, so I think they just they're not

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Speaker 2: very well deterred by thinking about you know, oh this

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Speaker 2: could this could turn out badly. You know, that wouldn't

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Speaker 2: like keep them from doing a particular thing.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting because it seems like if you imagine somebody

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Speaker 1: who's sort of calculating, which I guess is what someone

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Speaker 1: would typically think of when they think of a sociopath,

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Speaker 1: that seems like it contradicts with somebody who doesn't really

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Speaker 1: have a regard for consequences. Does that make sense? Do

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Speaker 1: you have anything any thoughts on that? Yeah? How can it? So?

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Speaker 2: I don't really fear death, right, but I know I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna die. In fact, I'm probably more aware of it

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Speaker 2: than an average person is because I don't fear it,

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Speaker 2: so I think about it frequently, you know, So I'm

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Speaker 2: just like, okay, do Yeah, there's like a three percent

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Speaker 2: chance of death, you know, and doing this particular activity

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Speaker 2: or something. But you know that doesn't really there's not

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Speaker 2: like an emotional reaction to understanding that. So it's one

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Speaker 2: thing to kind of cognitively understand that something could have

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Speaker 2: a high risk, but you kind of don't care about

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Speaker 2: the negative thing.

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Speaker 3: It's really interesting because it's almost like being enlightened in

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Speaker 3: a weird way.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but I also just.

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Speaker 3: Wanted to ask, I mean, do you guys still appreciate

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Speaker 3: like movies and stories or does it just obsoletely?

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Speaker 4: Like do you watch a movie and do you cry?

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Speaker 4: Or is it nothing?

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Speaker 5: I do appreciate music and movies. In fact, I think

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Speaker 5: I was an English major in college, and I did

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Speaker 5: enjoy a good story, right, and often enjoy the villain.

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Speaker 1: But do I cry? Not necessarily, you know.

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Speaker 5: I think there's been a couple that I'm like, I

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Speaker 5: can see why everyone else is crying. This is sad.

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Speaker 5: You know, the dog is dead or something, and naturally

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Speaker 5: it's sad. Music and art I have been moved to tears,

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Speaker 5: but maybe not in the way that I think other

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Speaker 5: people would see these things, right, you know, they're sad

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Speaker 5: or whatever. I for me when I see something beautiful

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Speaker 5: or striking, it strikes a nerve with me somehow, you know,

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Speaker 5: I often cry because of it.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, I would say, yeah, same thing with me. That

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Speaker 2: It's more like if something resonates with my aesthetic, that

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Speaker 2: can be like a moving experience for me. But I

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Speaker 2: don't necessarily feel like, oh, I'm empathizing with the people

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Speaker 2: who are you know, characters I guess in the movie

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Speaker 2: or whatever else is happening. I don't imagine like any

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Speaker 2: sort of backstory to what's going on. I mean, I

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Speaker 2: kind of think it's like a little bit like thinking

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Speaker 2: we're emotionally color blind. It's not like we are blind

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Speaker 2: blind emotionally blind, but there definitely is something. It is

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Speaker 2: a different experience, you know, And it's not just like

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Speaker 2: a matter of degree, it is a matter of type.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, growing up, did you know that you were different

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Speaker 1: or when did you realize that?

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Speaker 5: I knew that I was different. For a long time,

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Speaker 5: I just thought I'm smarter than other people, you know,

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Speaker 5: and I'm more articulate than other people, and other people

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Speaker 5: seem to be bogged down by fears or stage fright

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Speaker 5: even you know. When I was younger, I was often

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Speaker 5: a public speaker and I won all these awards and

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Speaker 5: everyone else was so nervous. You know, I remember thinking,

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Speaker 5: why am I not shaking? And why does this make

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Speaker 5: them want to throw up? You know, this is absurd.

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Speaker 5: You know, we just have to talk.

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Speaker 4: Oh I'm so jealous of that me too.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that was Ariya right, Yes, so Emmy,

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Speaker 1: what about you? Yeah? I do think it is.

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Speaker 2: Kind of like a superpower, and I agree, And I

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Speaker 2: think that's a very common experience, is to know that

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Speaker 2: you are different and the kind of thing that it's

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Speaker 2: because you're just smarter than other people I've met, Like

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Speaker 2: dozens of psychopaths have kind of traveled the world meeting them,

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Speaker 2: So I feel like that is pretty common experience for

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Speaker 2: people to share.

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Speaker 1: I think it's just that you're interested in different.

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Speaker 2: Things, and often people would think, oh, very precocious, you know,

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Speaker 2: like why is this kid saying curious? Yeah, curious about

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Speaker 2: weird things, you know, fearless. And I don't think it

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Speaker 2: really there's that much of a rub until you get

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Speaker 2: kind of like just before middle school, maybe when kids

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Speaker 2: start getting more socially like anti differences. You know, they're

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Speaker 2: really sensitive, so they're like, oh, he's different. He's wearing

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Speaker 2: a yellow shirt. Whoa yellow shirt?

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Speaker 5: Wow? It was often surprising to me because I used

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Speaker 5: to think that everyone else was faking it too. We

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Speaker 5: all have to cry together. We do not have to celebrate.

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Speaker 5: You know, why do we have this put on all

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Speaker 5: the time?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: Aria?

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Speaker 1: Have you been officially diagnosed?

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Speaker 5: I have not been officially diagnosed. I go to a

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Speaker 5: cognitive behavioral therapist and I've been with him for three

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Speaker 5: years now, and he's very anti diagnosis. He's administered a

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Speaker 5: couple different tests for me not to diagnose, but rather

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Speaker 5: highlight different issues that I have. But I think that

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Speaker 5: he would probably say personality disorder with antisocial traits, got it? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: And Emy, you got diagnosed before you publish your book?

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Speaker 4: Is that right? Yes?

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Speaker 1: And you know, I kind of agree.

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Speaker 2: There is a trend I think to kind of look

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Speaker 2: at the personality disorders and think there is quite a

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Speaker 2: bit of overlap here. And I think there is a

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Speaker 2: trend now to kind of be like, hey, you have

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Speaker 2: a personality disorder with these features. So, for whatever that's worth,

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Speaker 2: I think that number one therapists are very reluctant to

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Speaker 2: diagnose you, but number two, like do we both definitely

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Speaker 2: score very high and well into the ninety ninth percentile

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Speaker 2: for these traits.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, interesting. So how did you two find each other?

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Speaker 5: We actually found each other through Emmy's blog and book.

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Speaker 5: I was dating another girl at the time, and I

350
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Speaker 5: think it was maybe early twenties in college, and she

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Speaker 5: read the book in one day, you know, she bought

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Speaker 5: it and read it, and she encouraged me to read it.

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Speaker 5: Of course, at the time, I had zero introspection whatsoever.

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Speaker 5: So I did read the book and I thought, it's

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Speaker 5: kind of strange that you've highlighted all these parts of

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Speaker 5: the book and there's like creases all over the book,

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Speaker 5: and I wonder why. And so finally she tells me,

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Speaker 5: you know, I think that you are a sociopath, and

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Speaker 5: I want you to kind of read into this a

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Speaker 5: little bit more, you know, And so I thought sure,

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Speaker 5: And then I contacted Emmy when she started meeting people

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Speaker 5: for the next book, and we met in San Diego,

363
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Speaker 5: and at first we didn't really hit it off. You know,

364
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Speaker 5: I was admittedly really hungover and Emmy was really sick.

365
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Speaker 5: So it was just kind of this like we're telling

366
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Speaker 5: each other kind of weird stories and not really doing

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Speaker 5: activities together. But then we came When was it, I was.

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Speaker 1: Like seven months later.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she came out again, and this time I was like,

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Speaker 2: let's talk logistics.

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Speaker 1: Are we going to make out?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? She asked me this. I was in a car

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Speaker 5: accident the day before on my way to the airport,

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Speaker 5: so I was kind of like beat up and kind

375
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Speaker 5: of sore, and we're watching what were we watching?

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Speaker 1: And what is it?

377
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,720
Speaker 2: Something End of the World that Netflix show or whatever. Yes,

378
00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:25,040
Speaker 2: I can, oh, yeah, so then we're watching the TV show.

379
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Speaker 1: But she says no, she's not.

380
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Speaker 5: Interested in what do you want to make out?

381
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Speaker 2: And I was like not really, But then she's like

382
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Speaker 2: maybe tomorrow. So I was like tomorrow like two pm

383
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Speaker 2: or something.

384
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Speaker 5: Okay.

385
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Speaker 2: I had to do this, like every few years, you

386
00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:40,080
Speaker 2: have to go to these ethics classes or whatever to

387
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Speaker 2: make sure you're still being ethical as an attorney. So

388
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Speaker 2: I had to go to these classes and then I

389
00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,000
Speaker 2: had to like do some other things. Then it was

390
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Speaker 2: like midnight and she was leaving the next morning. I

391
00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:50,919
Speaker 2: think your flight was at like seven am. But I

392
00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:52,639
Speaker 2: was kind of like, well, it's kind of weird that

393
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Speaker 2: we are, like I guess now soul bonded via this

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Speaker 2: makeout session.

395
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Speaker 5: So and maybe I said, if you say so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I was.

397
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:03,160
Speaker 2: Like, I guess, you know, maybe I should see her

398
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Speaker 2: before she leaves.

399
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Speaker 4: In the morning.

400
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:05,320
Speaker 1: Yeah.

401
00:19:05,359 --> 00:19:07,480
Speaker 5: She was like, should I come over again before you leave?

402
00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,000
Speaker 5: And I was like, I don't know what we would do.

403
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,000
Speaker 5: And I think I was watching Heathers.

404
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,719
Speaker 2: Well I did come because I was like, well, it

405
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,600
Speaker 2: seems rightish, and then we just did not go to sleep.

406
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Speaker 1: We just made out the rest of the night.

407
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:20,879
Speaker 5: Oh my god, that's so fun that I did not

408
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,199
Speaker 5: think we were soul bonded until maybe a month or

409
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 5: so later. In fact, turned my phone back on and

410
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,159
Speaker 5: she sent me these messages about how it's important to

411
00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 5: kiss people goodbye, you know, and I was like, really

412
00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 5: it is, and and when are we going to see

413
00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 5: each other again? And I was like, I don't know.

414
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,520
Speaker 1: It took a while to get used to things. Yeah.

415
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:44,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, wow, I.

416
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:49,040
Speaker 1: Mean, explain love and sosiopathy because I don't understand.

417
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:51,160
Speaker 5: See, this is a tough question. I should have asked

418
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:54,760
Speaker 5: my therapist about this before you go. I me, I

419
00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 5: mean I think that I have no vocabulary.

420
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Speaker 1: It honestly kind.

421
00:19:58,560 --> 00:20:01,399
Speaker 2: Of depends on like where you are in life, Like,

422
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 2: I think that the tendency and we hear like sociopath's

423
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,919
Speaker 2: mellow out with age.

424
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: That's like kind of a common thing.

425
00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:09,479
Speaker 2: I have like a little bit of a theory that

426
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 2: they go through kind of like rough stages, you know,

427
00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,959
Speaker 2: like childhood developmental stages or something, or like the stages

428
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:15,439
Speaker 2: of grief.

429
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,120
Speaker 1: There are some childhood ones, but.

430
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,360
Speaker 2: I think probably most prominent that people would be able

431
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 2: to recognize is the early twenties, which is the playground stage.

432
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Speaker 1: I didn't even name it.

433
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,560
Speaker 2: Another sociopath I met named it the playground stage. Basically,

434
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,919
Speaker 2: you're at your peak sociopath everything you know, so peak

435
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,000
Speaker 2: care free, peak behavior, peak characteristics, peak doing whatever you

436
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:37,560
Speaker 2: feel like.

437
00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:39,159
Speaker 1: And so at that point, I mean.

438
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,800
Speaker 2: I think love is really superficial if anything.

439
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 5: Is just like but it was intense. Yeah, if I

440
00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 5: had a crush or a girlfriend or boyfriend, you know,

441
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 5: for about a week, it would be really intense, like

442
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:53,120
Speaker 5: almost obsessive, like a very definitely treaty yes.

443
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,159
Speaker 4: Wow, okay okay.

444
00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,720
Speaker 3: And then if you got that longing fulfilled that kind

445
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 3: of immediately, does it pay.

446
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 2: Maybe yes, yeah, like a sand sculpture, you know, could

447
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 2: be like crazy or something.

448
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 1: But you know, eventually the wind.

449
00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: And the waves are going to wash it away as

450
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:12,919
Speaker 2: if it never happened, right, and you'll just forget the person,

451
00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 2: like completely or whatever.

452
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm in a relationship right now where I

453
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,800
Speaker 3: really love the person and it almost makes it unenjoyable

454
00:21:21,880 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 3: because I'm so scared of losing that person or what

455
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:25,200
Speaker 3: if this happens?

456
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 4: Whatever?

457
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,800
Speaker 3: But if are you guys just able to live without

458
00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,640
Speaker 3: those fears? And like couple bliss.

459
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 5: We always say we actively choose to be together every day,

460
00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 5: you know, And now I can almost predict my choice

461
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 5: every day. Yes, I'm going to choose emmy, but it

462
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,960
Speaker 5: is a choice, right. You would probably agree with that, Yeah.

463
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 1: I think so.

464
00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I am very Yes, you know, kind

465
00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,359
Speaker 2: of like death is going to come, you know, whatever

466
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:52,160
Speaker 2: is going to come, and it kind of doesn't matter,

467
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 2: Like it doesn't color my current experience. You are maybe

468
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,920
Speaker 2: a little bit future focused to the point where it

469
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,000
Speaker 2: is coloring your present experience.

470
00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, totally at fair base.

471
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,919
Speaker 1: So you don't have anxiety about losing one another, or

472
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:07,159
Speaker 1: do you?

473
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 2: I mean I think that maybe you have read this

474
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 2: modern love article.

475
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:12,719
Speaker 5: New York Times.

476
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 1: I think I just did Yeah.

477
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Patrick, I think Gagney is that how we

478
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,439
Speaker 2: say her name. She kind of talks about love and

479
00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:22,639
Speaker 2: if you kind of visit her website, she talks a

480
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: little bit about how sociopath Psychopaths will go through a

481
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,679
Speaker 2: phase in which they experience anxiety, and that's after the

482
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: playground phase. I call it the reckoning, where you're kind

483
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 2: of reckoning with everything that's happened before and your own

484
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,399
Speaker 2: feelings and your own sense of things. And it's like,

485
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 2: in order to kind of like live at that high

486
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 2: cognitive level, you really almost have to have like a

487
00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 2: very short memory and like the brain of a twenty

488
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,760
Speaker 2: year old or something, right, because it's just the cognitive

489
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 2: load is just so heavy to bear that after a while,

490
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 2: I think you're just kind of like, now there's so

491
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: much to keep track of, and there's almost like an

492
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 2: an anxiety that comes from that. There's an anxiety from like,

493
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 2: you know, I want things to be predictable. I want

494
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: to be able to understand things, but you're not able

495
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 2: to do it. So there's always that gap between what

496
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 2: you're able to do and what you would like in

497
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,639
Speaker 2: order to feel comfortable like you used to in your

498
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,360
Speaker 2: early twenties, So I think during that time period there's

499
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,199
Speaker 2: like a little bit of anxiety. I have passed that.

500
00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: I passed that when I met Ariya. But Aria has

501
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,480
Speaker 2: actually gone through this phase while we've been together.

502
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 5: Wow.

503
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think she would say maybe. I mean, she

504
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: can say it that she has experienced anxiety here and there.

505
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 5: Oh, definitely yes. And about the relationship yes, And about

506
00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 5: the relationship wow.

507
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:41,560
Speaker 3: Okay, I mean I think it might be off the subject.

508
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 3: I'm just wondering. If you're in a plane and it's

509
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 3: like really bad turbulence, are you guys chill?

510
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

511
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 5: This happened once with my aunt and my little sister.

512
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 5: She was like six or seven at the time, and

513
00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 5: I think we're going to Florida and we had terrible turbulence, right,

514
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,399
Speaker 5: and it was my sister's first time. I'm flying ye

515
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 5: to mother her. Of course, I was still drinking wine

516
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 5: and reading my book and it was fine.

517
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.

518
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 2: I think there is like some varying degrees of the

519
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: fear response is really low. You know, I can be

520
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 2: like in a near accident and still be like, yes,

521
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 2: very calm. And I do think that it is really

522
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,560
Speaker 2: helpful for situations because you don't honestly, you know that

523
00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:25,800
Speaker 2: how they say, like drunk drivers are the ones that

524
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 2: always survive their accidents because their body is so relaxed

525
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 2: and everything, they don't fight it. I think that it

526
00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 2: is kind of true in these emergency situations that your

527
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 2: brain is like freaks out and that's probably not the

528
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 2: best thing to do. Actually, So that is another nice

529
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: thing about having the brain that I have.

530
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,440
Speaker 3: Do you think that maybe we're like evolving out of

531
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 3: guilt and you guys are just the next stage of

532
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 3: like what's to come. Maybe we don't need this shit.

533
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 3: Maybe you guys are experiencing what it will be and

534
00:24:56,800 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 3: could be.

535
00:24:58,040 --> 00:24:58,199
Speaker 1: You know.

536
00:24:58,320 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 2: I have kind of like a little bit of a

537
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 2: theory that comes from, uh, maybe it's going to be

538
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,800
Speaker 2: an unpopular opinion that comes from like my experiences as

539
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 2: being a music major, and I was actually a percussion major,

540
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: and I think there are certain especially in a field

541
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,640
Speaker 2: like percussion, it's really hard not to kind of see

542
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,600
Speaker 2: gender differences, right, Like it really seemed to trend one

543
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,840
Speaker 2: way versus the other, Like just physical strength.

544
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: I think men.

545
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: Are associated with spatial reasoning, right, And I could kind

546
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 2: of hear it they had very metronomic playing, like they

547
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: could play almost perfectly in rhythm in a way that

548
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 2: my female classmates frequently could not. Right, But then like

549
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 2: the female classmates seem to be so much better about

550
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: musicianship kind of naturally, So it's almost like they were

551
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 2: coming from like two separate points, like North Pole South Pool.

552
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 2: But in order to be like a true rounded musician,

553
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 2: you had to have everything right, so everybody was trying

554
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,400
Speaker 2: to meet in the middle. They were just coming from

555
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: two different, really different points. And I often thought that,

556
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 2: you know, I had a male professor, our studio professor,

557
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: and I thought sometimes he was like unable to kind

558
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,359
Speaker 2: of see that, like somebody could be at the same

559
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 2: level and just not be able to have very good

560
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 2: like metronomic timekeeping abilities, you know, but still be very

561
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,720
Speaker 2: good at kind of other things. Almost like this concept

562
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,119
Speaker 2: like we learn things not in a particular order, you know,

563
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,640
Speaker 2: like just because I went in a particular order about

564
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 2: like learning things about myself or the world or how

565
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: to interact with people or whatever else it is, doesn't

566
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:28,719
Speaker 2: mean that somebody else is going to learn it in

567
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 2: that same order. So I think that it's very similar

568
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: with psychopaths and people who are not psychopaths. Is that

569
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 2: we're just starting at different polls, but we we both

570
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:40,439
Speaker 2: need to meet in the middle.

571
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's cool.

572
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I do find that a lot of

573
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 3: my guilt or whatever, my empathy, I am very empathetic,

574
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 3: but I mean I still keep doing the behavior. So

575
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,120
Speaker 3: what's the point of it, I guess. But you're right,

576
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 3: meeting in the metal would be a much better solution.

577
00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 4: Yeah.

578
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: And I think things like you mentioned bef for you know,

579
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: like Buddhism or whatever, some of these practices meditation, mindfulness

580
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: are I think are trying to get people to realize

581
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: that your your kind of default way of thinking about things,

582
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 2: is not the only way to think about things, and

583
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: that you have more control over it than you think,

584
00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 2: and that your way only reflects a very small fraction

585
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 2: of truth of reality. Right, So I think in understanding that,

586
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: you know, I do think, yes, some people will end

587
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: up meeting in the middle. They'll they'll move towards closer

588
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 2: to psychopaths. And I think moved closer towards them.

589
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 4: Yeah.

590
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wish I could rid myself of anxiety and shame.

591
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,960
Speaker 1: I don't think those things necessarily serve me, although sometimes

592
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 1: I would argue that they do quick answered here. So

593
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: we actually went off on a big tangent, and I'm

594
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 1: not going to play the whole thing, but I'm going

595
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 1: to give you a recap. Basically, I brought up the

596
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: fact that ninety five percent of music producers in the

597
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: United States are men, which could, in theory suggest that

598
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 1: it's a male thing. But then if you go to Sweden,

599
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 1: as I learned when I did a songwriting camp there,

600
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 1: it is about half women who are music producers there.

601
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: So perhaps Swedish culture is just better at encouraging young

602
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: girls to exercise those muscles in their brains and then

603
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: get better at those things. Emmy then said that yes,

604
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: actually that could be true. Maybe there are also other

605
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: ways to look at music production, that only having the

606
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,359
Speaker 1: male perspective isn't conducive too, but that it's also important

607
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: to look at reliable research and interrogate our biases. I

608
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: later looked it up and found a study from UCSD

609
00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: that suggested that spatial reasoning being significantly different between genders

610
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 1: seems to be a function of culture more than genetics.

611
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: But that is a story for another day. So now

612
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: back to our original programming, That is, kind of something

613
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 1: that's funny honestly, being.

614
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: Psychopathic is that you see people, especially you know, in March,

615
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 2: like at the beginning of the pandemic March twenty twenty,

616
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: like people that I follow on Twitter and other people

617
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 2: that I respect, you know, just kind of like losing

618
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: it definitely in a way that seemed to me, like

619
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 2: their fear was coloring their thinking in a way that

620
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 2: I was not used to because they you know, they're scientists,

621
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: they're economists, political scientists. So I think that is kind

622
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: of a nice thing, not as if we are perfect,

623
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 2: but I think that we get our feelings hurt less,

624
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: and I think, honestly a lot of it comes from

625
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 2: people getting their feelings hurt I call it an identity hit.

626
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 2: You know, something says, somebody says something that's a little

627
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: bit contrary to your self conception or conception of the world,

628
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 2: and it hurts right.

629
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: Well, I want to talk about what is the difference

630
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,240
Speaker 1: between sociopath and psychopath if any.

631
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: So, you know, I think that the truth is that

632
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 2: there's no consensus, so people have different ideas.

633
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 5: In the UK too, they exclusively use the term psychopath.

634
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't use the word sociopaths.

635
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 2: So I've started using psychopath because it's like, well, I

636
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: speak often enough to people in the UK, sociopath would

637
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: be like saying, am I allowed to say this word

638
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: retarded or something like that?

639
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: Whoaa, whoa, We.

640
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 4: Don't use that word right right, Wow?

641
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,640
Speaker 2: That has no scientific meaning to us, you know, that's

642
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 2: just a weird thing that sometimes people say or something.

643
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: But I think there's at least two factors that people

644
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: talk about, and then there's kind of a third factor,

645
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 2: and sometimes people are like factor one or sociopaths or

646
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: psychopathsa in factor two are the other ones. And basically

647
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:09,960
Speaker 2: a good way to think of the difference between the

648
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 2: two is one is very like cold hearted and one

649
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 2: is very hot headed. So one is very kind of

650
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 2: emotionally reactive, if anything, you know, often violent, and the

651
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 2: other one is almost like Machiavellian, very emotionally unreactive. And

652
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 2: so people are kind of like, well, how can you

653
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: classify these two groups as the same thing. So honestly,

654
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: I think we're going to see like quite a bit

655
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: of shift in the next five to ten years about

656
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 2: how these are classified. But I think for now it's

657
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: hard to kind of say what is happening. And I

658
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: also think if you factor in people young versus older

659
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 2: versus a lot older, are also going to manifest their

660
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 2: traits differently. So maybe it's an age thing, maybe it's

661
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 2: a stage thing. Maybe they really are two different things.

662
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 2: It's hard to know, right, right, right.

663
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 1: So when both of you were younger, did you have

664
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: malicious tendencies? Did you have urges like tell us about that?

665
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think I would have recognized them

666
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 5: as malicious, but yes, I've definitely had my fair share

667
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 5: of violent interactions, I'll say, and usually I felt mostly

668
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 5: that I think other people were trying to impose some

669
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 5: sort of standard or rule on me which I didn't understand,

670
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 5: or they had some kind of authority over me, which

671
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 5: they actually didn't. And so my coldness, my violence in

672
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 5: response to them was often just to kind of be like,

673
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 5: we're going to set the standard here, we are equal.

674
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 5: You have no control over me. What do we call

675
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 5: that gray rage?

676
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 2: When that happens, Yeah, somebody has a false sense of

677
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: their own authority over you, and consequently a false sense

678
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: of their own personal safety.

679
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 5: I think that I was malicious, just opportunistic.

680
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: It's kind of funny though, because honestly, in meeting these

681
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 2: other psychopaths that I've met, like it's almost easier to

682
00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: tell in them some of these stories where I'm like,

683
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: that's kind of a weird thing were you to have

684
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: done in my own self because I was like, you know,

685
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 2: Ario needs to talk about this because I've never done

686
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: anything like that.

687
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 5: But I starticularly violent.

688
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I start off my book with killing that apositively.

689
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 3: No, Well, that's what I wanted to ask you guys

690
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: that because I know a lot of the like the

691
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 3: ways we think about it in society is you, guys,

692
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,880
Speaker 3: I don't know, like it starts off with torturing animals

693
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,280
Speaker 3: or whatever, and you didn't do that.

694
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 4: You just let a baby possum diet.

695
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 3: But do you guys like animals or did you have

696
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 3: any feelings towards them when you were little?

697
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 4: You know?

698
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: Really quickly, I think there is there's not homogeneity with

699
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: psychopaths with this, and my experience is that they're like

700
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 2: I would say even thirty to forty percent of sociopaths

701
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,479
Speaker 2: say that they like animals better than people wow, and

702
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:52,160
Speaker 2: are like interesting and staunch animal supporters. Just yeah, because

703
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: they can they can understand it better. They get them better.

704
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 2: But you know, I would say, like a very good

705
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: story of this with regard.

706
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: To animals is made. Bob durst Ario was just telling me.

707
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 5: About Dina the Jinks. Yeah, Robert Kurtz is a personal

708
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 5: hero and funny enough. So I did grow up with animals.

709
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 5: I didn't like them. In fact, in my baby book,

710
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 5: my mom writes, yeah, I had to separate you from animals.

711
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 5: You know, my grandparents have these two dogs, and she

712
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 5: was like, and you would rip their hair out, and

713
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 5: it was just like you were terrorizing.

714
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: Wow.

715
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 5: And I was very little. When I would go to

716
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 5: the sleepovers or birthday parties, you know, my mom would

717
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 5: tell the parents, do not leave her alone, you know,

718
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 5: with your kitten or your dog or your bird. A

719
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 5: bird was like a story for a different day. But

720
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 5: but it wasn't so much that I disliked them. It

721
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 5: was just that I didn't realize that what I was

722
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 5: doing would hurt them. I thought it was fun to

723
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 5: mess with them. That was kind of my way of

724
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 5: interacting with them, not so much that they were just

725
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 5: annoying and I would hurt them maliciously.

726
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be like a little kid kind of

727
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: playing rough with like the dumpster truck, you know, like

728
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: crashing it into the wall.

729
00:33:58,000 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: Like it's hard.

730
00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: Because there's not really maliciousness there in the sense that

731
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 2: you were trying to hurt the sentient being. It's mostly

732
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 2: a lack of awareness, almost a nice take sadism. Yeah,

733
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,439
Speaker 2: not really sadism. There's like an exploration there. It's more

734
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 2: like kind of like in a weird way, kind of scientific.

735
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 2: I don't condone it at all, you know, of course,

736
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: but I whenever I hear people's stories about it, I think, Okay,

737
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: you didn't know what was happening, and they kind of

738
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: tell it in this way where they're like, you know,

739
00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 2: I wish that I did.

740
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:33,960
Speaker 1: Not kill this, or like even I with the a possums.

741
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't even kind of realize that it

742
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 2: was a thing until I was talking to somebody. I

743
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: was like, I've never killed animals, and I was like,

744
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 2: hold it, have I let me real quick jogged memory

745
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 2: things because I did not file it in my memory as, oh,

746
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 2: I'm killing animals, you know, I'm like some sort of

747
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 2: badass killing animals because I'm so tough or whatever.

748
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: I just thought of it as like.

749
00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: Here's this thing that's seeping me from doing the thing

750
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 2: I want to do, and I don't know what to

751
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:57,600
Speaker 2: do with it, and here we go.

752
00:34:57,920 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

753
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 5: I think that I had an detachment from animals too,

754
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,759
Speaker 5: because my family was very Hey, if an animal is

755
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 5: on its last leg, my grandpa would kill them, I know,

756
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 5: shoot them. And I was allowed to be present for

757
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:14,319
Speaker 5: whatever reason, and so you know that too. I was like, well,

758
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:16,399
Speaker 5: this is just efficient because I understand that beat bills

759
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 5: are expensive, you know.

760
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would be like throwing away you're like McDonald's

761
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,399
Speaker 2: big mac wrapper after you're done or something that's kind

762
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: of like how you're just like, yeah, it goes here,

763
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 2: and this is what we do, and.

764
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,040
Speaker 1: Right, it's just very utilitarian.

765
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: Well even kind of think of all meat eaters, are

766
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 2: they like, yeah, I love to eat this because I

767
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: know it's an animal that died and I forced its kill,

768
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: you know, right.

769
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 3: No, but a malignant narcissist is more like I love

770
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 3: to hear the sound of the dog scream, while I

771
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:46,879
Speaker 3: like rip its and testines out.

772
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think they're significantly scarier than I am.

773
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:49,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

774
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I also don't know how many there actually are.

775
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 2: I have like just started kind of a discord server,

776
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:58,839
Speaker 2: and there is somebody on there who kind of talks

777
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: about how he likes power and control. But I don't

778
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,360
Speaker 2: know that I've actually met somebody, you know, and you

779
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: kind of get here and there like bloodlust, but the

780
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 2: bloodlust is more about the blood and the gore itself,

781
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,720
Speaker 2: and you know, just like real quick, you know, maybe

782
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 2: we've had some like blood exchanges before. We'll just in

783
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 2: this relationship, one of us, we'll just say accident, was

784
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 2: like interested in the other one's blood.

785
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 4: Got it, got it?

786
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, so we did cater to that for a while.

787
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 2: But I honestly think it's like a phase. You know,

788
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 2: It's like when kids get interested in like anatomy. Let

789
00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 2: me show you my penis or yeah, okay.

790
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 3: And didn't Angelina Jolie like wear blood for two years

791
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 3: or whatever?

792
00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: I mean, if we're talking about people who are into blood,

793
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: we can't not mention Army Hammer.

794
00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: It's true, true, in fact, that it seemed very similar.

795
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, so to our personal experience, is that a common fascination?

796
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: I don't think so.

797
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,479
Speaker 5: I don't think so. But in ours we stumbled upon

798
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 5: this practice. Yes you should say, right.

799
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, uh huh. So it's more like a lack

800
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 2: of inhibition. I think, when you're like you're just not

801
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: afraid to kind of explore anything that kind of fascinates.

802
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 5: You your life. That's disgusting.

803
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, often too, because it's like, uh, you know, psychopaths

804
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: suffer from constant boredom, you know, and so they're always

805
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 2: novelty seeking. So anything that kind of like livens something up.

806
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: And the more board they are probably the more volatile

807
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 2: they are. For this reason. But I think it's important

808
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 2: to kind of realize it's coming from a place of

809
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,359
Speaker 2: boredom and not from a place of like misogyny or

810
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 2: you know, like I hate other humans, or you know,

811
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,280
Speaker 2: like even sadism.

812
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: I mean, I think of my the like cult leader

813
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: that I believed in as a kid who manipulated my

814
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: mom and a whole host of other people who he

815
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 1: swindled out of their money. He, I think, definitely, at

816
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: least from my understanding of what a psychopath is, definitely qualifies.

817
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 1: He actually wrote a book, which, oh, I can't say

818
00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,359
Speaker 1: the name of it. He in the book pretty explicitly

819
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: sort of an autobiography, pretty explicitly talks about how he's

820
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,319
Speaker 1: plotting to manipulate women, how he's like trying to trick them,

821
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,240
Speaker 1: you know, the Hyatt gives him to do those things,

822
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: and how much smarter he is than them, the whole thing.

823
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I'm interested in that like sort of

824
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,719
Speaker 1: brand of psychopaths, you know, people like that from the forums.

825
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 1: Do you connect with that in any way?

826
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, it's not to say like that,

827
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 2: like I can understand a little bit where they're coming from.

828
00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 2: I guess my question is it's one thing to kind

829
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,360
Speaker 2: of say, Okay, this is how it has happened to

830
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 2: manifest itself. But I think the more interesting question in

831
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 2: my mind when I relate to them and when I

832
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 2: engage with them, is like why, you know, because I've

833
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: been talking to this person recently who's you know, raped people,

834
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 2: And I'm like, why why rape?

835
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:52,080
Speaker 1: You know?

836
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,919
Speaker 2: And he's like, well, there's the sexual pleasure, but there's

837
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: also this. But I think there's almost a lack of introspection.

838
00:38:57,440 --> 00:38:59,919
Speaker 2: It's like a little bit like saying coronavirus causes loss

839
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 2: of taste and smell, but like why you know?

840
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,200
Speaker 1: We do we still know?

841
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,439
Speaker 2: Like it's interesting, but I think if you don't know why,

842
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: then you might think all sorts of different things, like

843
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:11,319
Speaker 2: it's eating away at your brain. You know, I don't

844
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,760
Speaker 2: think we think that. So I think even with these people,

845
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 2: I think it comes from a sense that they need

846
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 2: to kind of control things. And one of my theories

847
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 2: is that, like frequently, I won't say exclusively, but frequently

848
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: psychopathy is associated with a childhood experience at least one

849
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,359
Speaker 2: that's marked by somebody completely violating your personhood, you know,

850
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 2: your your own personal boundaries, and as a result, you

851
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 2: become almost hyper fixated on predicting and controlling and orchestrating

852
00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 2: your environment so this doesn't happen again. You know, you

853
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 2: also kind of cut off, you know, like those aspects

854
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 2: of yourself. You know, you're like, I'm just going to

855
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 2: dissociate basically from my entire identity. So I never experienced

856
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 2: that again. You know, it is I think largely a

857
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: differense mechanism.

858
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:00,399
Speaker 1: But I think with.

859
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,399
Speaker 2: This guy, you know, he gets off on like why

860
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 2: is it women? He clearly is like disturbed, But I

861
00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:06,959
Speaker 2: think he's disturbed in this way that I don't think

862
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 2: that he's just you know, a baddie. I think it's

863
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: kind of like saying like I just listened to one

864
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: of these continuing legal education seminars about this guy who

865
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 2: is an alcoholic and a cocaine addict and he ruined

866
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 2: his life, you know, over the period of a few

867
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:23,359
Speaker 2: decades and then finally like hit rock bottom. Like I

868
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 2: still think as being kind of an advocate for psychopaths,

869
00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 2: we still have to think of him that way and think,

870
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 2: what is it that's going on with this guy. Yes,

871
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 2: obviously his behavior is completely not acceptable, but again, he

872
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: can't just be like somebody that we just say, Okay,

873
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 2: he's this flat, one dimensional note character that likes to

874
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 2: manipulate women and let's just stop there.

875
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:48,359
Speaker 1: Mmmm. It's a really interesting point and question and thing

876
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: worth discussing, I think, because one of the things that

877
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 1: we advocate for the most on this podcast is empathy

878
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 1: for people who are not like us. You know, there's

879
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: a lot of stigma around people who are in cults.

880
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: There's a tendency to call them dumb or naive or whatever,

881
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 1: and our whole thing is like, no, like, let's look

882
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: at what was going on in their life. And I

883
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 1: think when it comes to sociopaths psychopaths, that's sort of

884
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 1: where the line is for people of where where our

885
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 1: empathy stops? And ultimately, like, how much does intent matter

886
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: if the impact is harm? I don't know. But when

887
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 1: I think about, like I think about the criminal justice system,

888
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: because I'm somebody who believes in rehabilitative justice as opposed

889
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: to punitive, retributive justice. I believe that most people can

890
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: be rehabilitated if they're actually put into a program and

891
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 1: given therapy and taught skills and like, you know, taught

892
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: pro social behaviors. But in my head often like I

893
00:41:43,680 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: definitely do have a bias against sociopaths because of my

894
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: life's experience, And I'm like, well, I don't know what

895
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 1: to do about them, though, like we can, we can

896
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,480
Speaker 1: rehabilitate most kinds of criminals, but I don't know what

897
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 1: to do about the sociopaths. So I guess I'm wondering,

898
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: have you noticed chain in your ability to empathize? Do

899
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,439
Speaker 1: you believe that there's treatment? Like how rehabilitatable are psychopaths?

900
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 5: I think it is possible. I three years ago, my

901
00:42:11,600 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 5: family was kind of more or less fed up with

902
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,480
Speaker 5: my behavior, you know, and I was convinced, you know,

903
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 5: there's nothing wrong with me. But yes, I'll go see

904
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 5: this therapist just to kind of prove you guys wrong.

905
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 5: You know, there's nothing wrong with me. Yeah, you know,

906
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 5: I've made mistakes, I suppose, or I've ran with the

907
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 5: wrong crowd. But I did realize, you know, there was

908
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 5: something wrong for me. I had to be I have

909
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 5: to be constantly incentivized to do it.

910
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 1: You know.

911
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 5: My therapist is very good about being like, Okay, but

912
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:41,919
Speaker 5: if you do this and then maybe this will happen

913
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 5: and it's a good thing for you, you know, So it's

914
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 5: it's important to work towards it.

915
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I also went to I think I had like

916
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 2: three or four, maybe five years of therapy somewhere in there,

917
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,439
Speaker 2: and you know, I think there are still some things

918
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 2: that are the same. I mean, I still do not

919
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 2: feel effective empathy. I still do not kind of tomactically

920
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: see someone crying and get sad myself. I can be like, oh,

921
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 2: I have concern for this person because tears signal distress,

922
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: you know, and let's let's investigate this source of distress.

923
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 2: And I kind of think it's funny because do you

924
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,840
Speaker 2: guys know DMT, the psychedelic drugs.

925
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 4: I was just I just wrote down to ask you

926
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 4: guys about this.

927
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: Yes, I do, so I just spoke to uh recently

928
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,320
Speaker 2: because now that it's pandemic, I don't go around meeting people,

929
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,839
Speaker 2: but I do do little zoom interviews or something. And

930
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 2: he said that he was basically kind of like this

931
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 2: playground stage psychopath, you know, did not care about others,

932
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: liked to behave in these antisocial ways. And then he

933
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:41,399
Speaker 2: said that he tried DMT once, not for any other

934
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 2: reason than just novelty seeking. Some person was like, hey,

935
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: do you want some drugs? And he's like yes, And

936
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 2: then he said afterwards, like during it, he said he

937
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 2: was able to finally understand that other people are whole

938
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:55,799
Speaker 2: people just like he is, you know, and they're not

939
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 2: just like non player characters like in this.

940
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 5: Game all playing single player game, you know, until my

941
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 5: therapist convinces me that everyone else is just as real

942
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 5: as me.

943
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 2: Yes, So that is an actual you know, speaking of

944
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: coming from like different places psychopath and normal people. That's

945
00:44:10,760 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 2: basically something a psychopath has to, you know, a realization

946
00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: that they have to come to, probably in order to

947
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: really get a control over their antisocial behavior, because they

948
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 2: have no sense of self, so they have no sense

949
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: of boundaries, personal boundaries, so they will just violate personal

950
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 2: boundaries without understanding what's happening.

951
00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: You know. It reminds me one time my.

952
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 2: Nephew very little, I think he was like two or something,

953
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 2: but my dad has chickens. So there were like baby

954
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:40,520
Speaker 2: chicks and the chick starts running towards him and it

955
00:44:40,520 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 2: freaks him out and he stomps on it, and unfortunately,

956
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: the baby chick ends up dying right because of the

957
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: injuries sustained by my nephew. And they were like, well,

958
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 2: you know, the baby chicks are going to be around,

959
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:52,759
Speaker 2: so we should explain to him. He was even like

960
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 2: cognizant enough to kind of know, and he he asked

961
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 2: about the baby chick. You know, is the baby chick dead?

962
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 2: And it's like yes, and he's like, did I I

963
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: killed the baby chick, you know, in his little childlike language,

964
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: and it's like, yeah, you did kill the baby chick,

965
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: you know. But I don't think anybody's kind of like

966
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 2: and shame on you for this, you know, So I

967
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 2: think this kind of naive tay, like, if you do

968
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: not understand that other people are people just like you,

969
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 2: then it's kind of like my nephew stomping on the

970
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 2: baby chick. And the solution is not to try to

971
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: kind of shame them or whatever, but to try to

972
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: get them to open up their mind, either through DMT

973
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 2: or therapy or they have like some you know, personal

974
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 2: experience or their family or whatever else happens where they

975
00:45:32,520 --> 00:45:34,840
Speaker 2: can kind of start to see the world in a

976
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 2: way that other people are just as real as they are.

977
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, have you guys ever done psychedelics, because it sounds

978
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 3: like it's almost kind of a defense mechanism. And if

979
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 3: these drugs melt it, I mean, you're left with your

980
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 3: true self.

981
00:45:49,880 --> 00:45:53,720
Speaker 5: I've never done psychedelic drugs. I'm not super interested in drugs.

982
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 5: But we've had this conversation before Emmy and I where

983
00:45:57,680 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 5: if we could take the empathy pill, right, what would do?

984
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,440
Speaker 5: And I would absolutely take it, mostly because you know,

985
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:05,840
Speaker 5: even being me is boring, Right, I would want to

986
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 5: experience something else, and I think it would be worthwhile.

987
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 5: For sure.

988
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 4: Would the pill be forever or just like you felt

989
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 4: it for a day.

990
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 5: Oh, even if I could feel it for a day,

991
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:15,880
Speaker 5: I would do it.

992
00:46:15,960 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah.

993
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 4: Either way, you would do it forever, though, I.

994
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 5: Mean, if I liked it, I think I would find

995
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 5: it overwhelming, though.

996
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:25,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm really interested in the psychedelic stuff. I read

997
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 1: that book, The Psychopath Test. Have you guys read it?

998
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 5: No, I haven't read it.

999
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: I mean too yes, Yes, it's okay, it didn't Kevin Dutton, right, No,

1000
00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 1: it's John Ronson. I want to say, yes, okay, yes.

1001
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: But one of the things he talks about is how

1002
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 1: there were these experiments done in the seventies with LSD

1003
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: and a group of criminal psychopaths. It was a very

1004
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 1: very controversial study and maybe y'all know about it, but

1005
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: for audience in case they don't, They basically had them

1006
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: do a bunch of LSD like put them in a

1007
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: room together, and they thought they'd made all this progress

1008
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 1: because it seemed like they were all really acting with

1009
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: each other and feeling love. And then they were saying, oh, no,

1010
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: the experiment went horribly wrong because all that did was

1011
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: teach them how to manipulate better. So afterward their rate

1012
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: of committing crimes again was like twenty percent higher than

1013
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 1: the average psychopath. But then, of course it came out

1014
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: later that actually what was happening during the experiment was

1015
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: they were essentially being tortured like the worst possible way

1016
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 1: to do LSD literally being bound together in over like

1017
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 1: a horrifying circumstance. God, So that was such an interesting

1018
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,240
Speaker 1: experiment to do in theory, but they did it so

1019
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: so so wrong, so we don't actually know what the

1020
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: results were. And then I read about another one that

1021
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: tested psilocybin from mushrooms on sociopath to see if it

1022
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 1: would increase empathy, and it was found to increase And

1023
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: this distinction is a little bit confusing for me, but

1024
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: it was found to increase emotional empathy, which is the

1025
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,800
Speaker 1: ability to share the feelings of others, but not cognitive empathy,

1026
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 1: which is the ability to actually understand how another person feels,

1027
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: and therefore or had no impact on moral behavior. I'm

1028
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: just saying things that I think are interesting. I don't

1029
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: know what my question is.

1030
00:48:07,920 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 2: I do think that's interesting, and I think that there it's,

1031
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 2: as you say, like, it's an area that I think

1032
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 2: should be explored more. Because he's not the only one

1033
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 2: that I've met who has tried DMT and had like

1034
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 2: kind of a psychopath evolving experience, and he didn't mean

1035
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 2: to do it at all. And it's kind of funny

1036
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 2: because you'll see him on the forums talking to people

1037
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 2: who have people talk about being red pilled or whatever.

1038
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:34,120
Speaker 2: You know, it's like a similar sort of a shift

1039
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 2: in perspective. He'll talk to people who are still kind

1040
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: of playground stage on the forum and be like, well,

1041
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: you know, maybe eventually you'll have a different understanding.

1042
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 1: Right.

1043
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 2: We don't mean to be like patronizing about it, but

1044
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 2: it is very common for people to have that perspective

1045
00:48:49,120 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 2: shift as psychopaths. But if they can push it off,

1046
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,240
Speaker 2: maybe into their forties fifties, especially probably if they're also

1047
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: quite narcissistic and they don't think that they need a change,

1048
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: you know, whatever work is working for them.

1049
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:07,400
Speaker 1: So the overlap between narcissism and psychopathy, like because sometimes

1050
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: when I read those descriptions, I'm like, that's isn't that

1051
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: the same thing? Can you talk about that?

1052
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:16,640
Speaker 5: I think narcissists are inherently, you know, all about themselves, right,

1053
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 5: and they're very emotionally reactive. At least the narcissists that

1054
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 5: I'm friends with, they definitely are more emotionally reactive to me.

1055
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 2: You know.

1056
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 5: They can't even handle the slightest criticism, right, like, Okay,

1057
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 5: maybe you shouldn't have told your girlfriend to fuck off,

1058
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 5: you know, and then our friendship's over for a couple

1059
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 5: of weeks. They can't handle any kind of critique or

1060
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 5: constructive criticism, and they have to have mass amounts of

1061
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 5: praise for what they do, you know, And at least

1062
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 5: I've noticed within my own friendships, they need constant approval

1063
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 5: and praise in ways that I do not. You know,

1064
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 5: it is enough for me to know that I could

1065
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 5: do this, and I don't have to tell the world

1066
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 5: about it, you know, I don't need the pat on

1067
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:55,720
Speaker 5: the back, so to speak.

1068
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: That's interesting jinks, ahaha.

1069
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 5: I do think that sociopaths are inherently narcissistic. I know

1070
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:05,920
Speaker 5: that I am. One of my friends was like, you know,

1071
00:50:05,960 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 5: you should just go on a date with yourself, you

1072
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 5: know yourself. I was like, it's not it's not exactly that,

1073
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,520
Speaker 5: but I see what he means. You know, I am

1074
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 5: pretty confident. You know. I have a friend who is

1075
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 5: married now I've yet to meet his wife, and she

1076
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 5: is jealous of me, you know. He tells me this,

1077
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 5: and I asked him why, and she reported that even

1078
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 5: looking at my Instagram, she felt jealous because she knew

1079
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:35,280
Speaker 5: that my confidence overshadowed her insecurities and highlighted her insecurity.

1080
00:50:35,320 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 5: It's just a little bit more for her.

1081
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: And do you feel emotional reactivity when somebody like, do

1082
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,760
Speaker 1: you have that ego thing where you have a reaction

1083
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,840
Speaker 1: to not being praised or whatever.

1084
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 5: I don't think that I inherently need very much praise.

1085
00:50:49,520 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 5: Now though I have adopted a few more labels for myself,

1086
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 5: you know, I can take these things that we call

1087
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 5: identity hits. Now. You know, if somebody tells me, you know,

1088
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,759
Speaker 5: I'm that I'm dishonest or something that. Now I don't

1089
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 5: think of myself that way. So now when people say, oh,

1090
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 5: you're a liar, you know, I'm like, no, I'm not

1091
00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 5: a liar, And it does offend me now, right, Oh,

1092
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 5: that's so interesting.

1093
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: I love the term identity hits. I feel like that's

1094
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: such an accurate descriptor.

1095
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, there go ahead, Lola.

1096
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,239
Speaker 1: Oh no, I just I remember what I was gonna say,

1097
00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 1: which is that you know, you can do brain skins

1098
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: and see that a person is a sociopath because of

1099
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,719
Speaker 1: you know, limited function in a particular area of their brain. Right,

1100
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:29,880
Speaker 1: So it does make sense because one of the theories

1101
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: about how psilocybin is so effective. I'm obsessed with mushrooms.

1102
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:34,920
Speaker 1: What is my deal, Megan?

1103
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 4: What I am too? I love them more than anything.

1104
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,839
Speaker 1: One of the theories on why it works to help,

1105
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 1: you know, cure people's addiction is because it makes the

1106
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: brain more plastic for the duration of the trip. So

1107
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: if what's happening is there's like a part of the

1108
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 1: brain that's not that active, I wonder if part of

1109
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 1: it is, like it's like helping make connections to the

1110
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 1: empathy centers, you know, if that's what the DMT is doing. Now,

1111
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: I want you both to do it and see what happens.

1112
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:03,840
Speaker 4: Don't do I don't want them to do DMT. I

1113
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 4: want them to do like acid or.

1114
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 1: Much something something empt is crazy.

1115
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 3: I have this fantasy of just walking Donald Trump in

1116
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 3: a room and giving him DMT, which kind of brings

1117
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 3: me to a question and your book. I mean, it

1118
00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 3: was saying like you can sometimes leave clues for each other.

1119
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 3: Do you remember what I'm talking about, because I'm not

1120
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 3: phrasing it exactly as you did, but you'll leave little

1121
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 3: hints for other sociopaths like, oh, I'm I'm doing this too.

1122
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, Uh, I think that a lot

1123
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 2: of sociopaths and this is kind of like the end

1124
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 2: of the playground stage. Like what really brings it to

1125
00:52:42,560 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 2: the end is that you don't like wearing the mask.

1126
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 2: You know, you don't like having to kind of, you know,

1127
00:52:47,920 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 2: change everything about yourself depending on who you're around. I mean,

1128
00:52:51,320 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: what's the point number one? And it takes up too

1129
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: much energy. So I've had a few people be like

1130
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: and then I just divorced, you know, my spouse because

1131
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 2: I realized I don't want to pretend, you know, life

1132
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 2: is too short. So I think some of that's happening.

1133
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 2: I think it's almost like a fun little game, you know,

1134
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,840
Speaker 2: like how close can you get to outing yourself without

1135
00:53:10,840 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 2: outing yourself?

1136
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:12,439
Speaker 5: Is really fun?

1137
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:16,000
Speaker 3: Right, right? So you guys can kind of spot each

1138
00:53:16,040 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 3: other a mile away.

1139
00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 5: Kind of not necessarily, but I did think the first

1140
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 5: couple times we hung out, it was a little bit

1141
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 5: of you know, what would you say? There was kind

1142
00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:28,080
Speaker 5: of a power struggle. I think to be like, okay,

1143
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,480
Speaker 5: we're going to make eye contact for this long or whatever,

1144
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 5: we're going to be kind of condescending, I guess to

1145
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:34,280
Speaker 5: each other a little shitty.

1146
00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 2: That's funny because I feel like I was making eye

1147
00:53:38,080 --> 00:53:40,920
Speaker 2: contact too long, you know, almost a staring contest.

1148
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 5: And wasn'tually the same way.

1149
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 2: But I don't feel like I was intentionally doing it.

1150
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:44,920
Speaker 2: I think I was.

1151
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:52,160
Speaker 4: Just kind of like unconsciously kind of acting it out.

1152
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 1: Well, is that what you're saying? I think the eye

1153
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 1: contact thing.

1154
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 2: I actually think for me that, Yes, people have noted that,

1155
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:01,719
Speaker 2: but I think it's because I'm afraid, you know, to just.

1156
00:54:01,640 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 5: Doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. Yeah, does my friend now

1157
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,280
Speaker 5: it makes him feel uncomfortable and we have this inside

1158
00:54:06,360 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 5: joke now or he'll be like, stop and I know

1159
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 5: exactly what he's talking about. Is the eye contact.

1160
00:54:10,480 --> 00:54:10,800
Speaker 4: Stop?

1161
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 5: That's us.

1162
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: I can't handle eye contact. It is very intense for me.

1163
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, this is too intimate.

1164
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 5: What I like to do it at people in traffic too.

1165
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 5: That's my favorite thing to do is Oh my god,

1166
00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:23,920
Speaker 5: I'm gonna be in traffic and see how long I

1167
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 5: can do it before they look away.

1168
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: That's great. Oh wait, are there any celebrities that you

1169
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 1: think are sociopaths?

1170
00:54:31,760 --> 00:54:32,000
Speaker 3: Oh?

1171
00:54:32,960 --> 00:54:35,760
Speaker 5: I think Taylor Swift is definitely on the spectrum somewhere.

1172
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, Taylor Swift, and it's kind of funny because psychopaths,

1173
00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:41,320
Speaker 2: I think they're very good kind of we talked about before,

1174
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 2: like controlling their image, controlling the way they're perceived, controlling

1175
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:47,640
Speaker 2: the way things go, but also kind of have blind.

1176
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:48,439
Speaker 1: Spots about weird things.

1177
00:54:48,480 --> 00:54:51,000
Speaker 2: Like the criticisms of her I think are from kind

1178
00:54:51,000 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 2: of her blind spots of not being able to understand.

1179
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,720
Speaker 2: But once she did understand that that was hurting her brand,

1180
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 2: then she was like, here's my newest single, you know,

1181
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 2: about politics and all the little things like Robert Durst.

1182
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: I mean, he's kind of a popular one, but like

1183
00:55:09,239 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 2: when you kind of see weird little tells that like

1184
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 2: no one.

1185
00:55:12,640 --> 00:55:14,240
Speaker 5: Would be jolly tell them about Igor.

1186
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, about Egor and the peeing.

1187
00:55:16,480 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 5: Oh yeah and the peing. Okay, So when I was younger,

1188
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 5: you know, I had a variety of animals like hermit crabs, ferrets,

1189
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 5: you name it because my aunt worked at a pet

1190
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 5: store and I named them all Sid, you know, and eventually,

1191
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 5: you know, sometimes my mom would be like, you know, no,

1192
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 5: like don't you think he looks like a scout? And

1193
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 5: I'd be like, no, it's Sid, right, and did and

1194
00:55:39,960 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 5: we found out. I think it was just late last night,

1195
00:55:42,000 --> 00:55:45,080
Speaker 5: that Robert Durst. Actually he had fought seven different, not

1196
00:55:45,120 --> 00:55:47,960
Speaker 5: different dogs. They were all the same breed. Yeah, I

1197
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 5: can't remember the breed now, but he named them all Egor,

1198
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:56,279
Speaker 5: and like the resemblance is too much, but all of

1199
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 5: his versions of Egor died rather mysteriously and weird. He

1200
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 5: told his brother one day, don't make me Egor you.

1201
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 3: Wowly Wait, do you guys think he killed his mom

1202
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 3: or do you think she jumped?

1203
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 5: I think she jumped. Really, I think he killed everyone

1204
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 5: else though, Okay, all.

1205
00:56:14,080 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 2: Right, but even like he once, I'm ped on the

1206
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:18,920
Speaker 2: counter of the p's interesting.

1207
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, when he's so, he's standing in line at a

1208
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 5: CVS and you know, there's like two people in front

1209
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 5: of him, and so he just starts peeing in line.

1210
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 5: And this has brought us to our next sociopath exploration,

1211
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:35,440
Speaker 5: which is I have also peed very randomly, you know,

1212
00:56:35,520 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 5: once in a movie theater. You know, I don't like

1213
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:39,760
Speaker 5: to go to the movies that much because my attention

1214
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 5: span is one terrible, two I need subtitles, but three

1215
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 5: I really like horror movies. So if they do come

1216
00:56:45,600 --> 00:56:47,520
Speaker 5: out out, you know, more or less risk it and

1217
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 5: spend the money to do it, And so I went

1218
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 5: with my boyfriend at the time, and I was like,

1219
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 5: oh wow, I have to pee so bad. And he

1220
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 5: was like, oh, well, just go and I was like, no,

1221
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:59,120
Speaker 5: you don't understand. I can't miss the part of the movie.

1222
00:56:59,160 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna be able to jump back in after that.

1223
00:57:00,840 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 5: So I got off of my seat, took my pants

1224
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,479
Speaker 5: down and just peed on the ground, you know much.

1225
00:57:07,680 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 5: And you know, he's like, what are you doing? You know,

1226
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 5: but he's still trying to be quiet and not draw

1227
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,239
Speaker 5: attention to himself, and he was like, why didn't you

1228
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 5: just like pee in the sea? I don't understand. I

1229
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 5: was like, I would never do that to their upholstery.

1230
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 5: You know that just terrible?

1231
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 2: Right?

1232
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 3: WHOA, It is really fascinating.

1233
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 1: Wait, I actually want to know. You said, Robert Durst

1234
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: is a hero?

1235
00:57:29,560 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 4: Can you just do it? Yeah?

1236
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 5: Not a hero for his crimes, absolutely not, but just

1237
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 5: the absurdity of the things that he's done, you know,

1238
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 5: peeing in a line at a CVS. You know, this

1239
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 5: is so absurd, right, Certainly they have bathrooms, I'm sure

1240
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:46,560
Speaker 5: that they do. Or stealing a sandwich when you have

1241
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 5: thirty thousand dollars in your car, you know, in cash,

1242
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 5: you know, and this is how you get caught. And

1243
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 5: I often think, you know, this is how I've gotten

1244
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 5: caught for these stupid blind spots, you know, things that

1245
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:00,760
Speaker 5: just didn't seem like they should have happened, right, and

1246
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,920
Speaker 5: they still do. And I think it's because, you know,

1247
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 5: I never seem to learn from my mistakes, even small

1248
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:09,360
Speaker 5: things like leaving my light on in my car. You know,

1249
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 5: It's happened so many times. And I've ran out of

1250
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 5: gas so many times and locked my keys in my

1251
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 5: car so many times. You know, I can never learn

1252
00:58:16,160 --> 00:58:20,160
Speaker 5: from these tiny mistakes that just turn into these huge problems.

1253
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 5: So when I think of Robert Durst, I just think

1254
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 5: about it a little bit more on a grand scale obviously, right,

1255
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:29,480
Speaker 5: you know, I've never killed someone or anything. But as

1256
00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,720
Speaker 5: far as the personal hero, I also love that he

1257
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 5: has dozens of aliases I did do. At one point

1258
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 5: in time. You know, I was a different person all

1259
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:41,080
Speaker 5: the time, and I loved making different tender profiles, you know,

1260
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 5: just being a different person, you know, totally different outfits.

1261
00:58:44,320 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 5: And then I would like go out with a girl

1262
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 5: or something and be like, yeah, my name is Samantha.

1263
00:58:48,640 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 5: That's right, you know, and I'm Samantha today. It was

1264
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 5: more just less about different identities, and it was more

1265
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 5: it was just fun for me, you know.

1266
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: So it's just like a need for constant stimula. It's

1267
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: what it sounds like.

1268
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:04,240
Speaker 5: It definitely is, Yeah, it definitely is.

1269
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1270
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 3: You guys have so much energy just doing a normal

1271
00:59:08,440 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 3: tender profile is exhausting for me.

1272
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: I know, I barely have the energy to just be

1273
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: myself the same.

1274
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 3: Can you guys tell us, like, what's the quote unquote

1275
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:20,520
Speaker 3: worst thing you've ever been caught doing?

1276
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 4: And do you feel shame for that?

1277
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 5: I don't think I've ever felt shame or guilt. I

1278
00:59:25,920 --> 00:59:29,959
Speaker 5: have felt regret, several shades of regret. But I'm trying

1279
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 5: to think what is the worst.

1280
00:59:31,120 --> 00:59:32,160
Speaker 4: What about embarrassment?

1281
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 5: No, not really, okay, no, and I've certainly embarrassed myself.

1282
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 5: I think other people would say that, but I haven't

1283
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 5: perceived it that way. We were just talking the other day.

1284
00:59:40,760 --> 00:59:42,880
Speaker 5: We saw this meme of somebody like in their bed

1285
00:59:43,000 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 5: late at night, and it's like, oh, it's three in

1286
00:59:44,560 --> 00:59:48,280
Speaker 5: the morning, and I'm thinking about some random embarrassing thing

1287
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:50,400
Speaker 5: I said a couple of years ago, and I told Emmy.

1288
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 5: You know that has never happened to me. You know,

1289
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 5: I've never had that moment of reflection like, wow, that

1290
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:55,480
Speaker 5: was embarrassing.

1291
00:59:56,040 --> 01:00:00,920
Speaker 1: Wow, lucky, that's me every night. I want to like

1292
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 1: infuse some of your brain into mind, and not all

1293
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 1: of it, but just like some of it. Can we

1294
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: just do a little bit of a transfer, I think? Yeah,

1295
01:00:07,720 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: the meeting in the middle thing, yeah, is brilliant.

1296
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:10,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1297
01:00:10,680 --> 01:00:12,919
Speaker 3: There was this article I read once though I tried

1298
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 3: to find it today, but it was this kid with

1299
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 3: autism who didn't experience feelings, you know, and he worked

1300
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 3: on it a lot, and I think he started trying

1301
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 3: some new medication and then one day it was like

1302
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 3: putting on color blind glasses and he suddenly felt it

1303
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:30,800
Speaker 3: and understood it all and was like, get these the

1304
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 3: fuck off of me.

1305
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 4: I hate this. It's awful. Yeah, that's always an interesting

1306
01:00:35,440 --> 01:00:36,640
Speaker 4: thing in the back of my mind.

1307
01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,200
Speaker 1: Just back to your relationship for one second. Do you

1308
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: manipulate each other?

1309
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:44,200
Speaker 5: Not anymore? And the very beginning of our relationship, and

1310
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 5: when it really wasn't a relationship, you know, my friend

1311
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 5: was like, there is no way that you could seduce

1312
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,160
Speaker 5: Emmy Thomas, and I said, watch me, you know, and

1313
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:53,479
Speaker 5: I will. But then as it turns out, I really

1314
01:00:53,560 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 5: liked her and it was genuine, you know. And I

1315
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 5: don't think that we have really manipulated each other on

1316
01:00:59,800 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 5: a large scale.

1317
01:01:01,360 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think so either. I think that one

1318
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:06,600
Speaker 2: of my big takeaways from therapy, apart from like kind

1319
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 2: of firming up a sense of self, a sense of

1320
01:01:08,760 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 2: my own identity and preferences, is just also kind of

1321
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:16,760
Speaker 2: acknowledging personal boundaries and so like to respect somebody else's

1322
01:01:16,800 --> 01:01:19,480
Speaker 2: personhood and their agency. Like again, I'm a lawyer, so

1323
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:22,120
Speaker 2: it's almost like trespassing, you know. In my mind, it's

1324
01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:26,560
Speaker 2: like everybody has their own personal space, not physical, but

1325
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,000
Speaker 2: emotional and psychological, and you cannot.

1326
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:32,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's not my right to interfere. Yes, it's yes,

1327
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 5: So I don't need to manipulate a situation or orchestrate

1328
01:01:35,040 --> 01:01:36,840
Speaker 5: a situation so that it works out just the way

1329
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 5: that I want.

1330
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 4: It to work out.

1331
01:01:38,080 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 2: Yes, And that's basically what manipulation is for the most part. However,

1332
01:01:42,280 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 2: they can always give you permission, so this happens I

1333
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 2: think frequently where we kind of consent to be manipulated by,

1334
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:51,040
Speaker 2: for instance, our therapist who is really trying to get

1335
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 2: us to think a different way, and that is manipulation, right,

1336
01:01:54,320 --> 01:01:57,720
Speaker 2: Or I'm consenting to be manipulated by my health coach

1337
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 2: Julio and losing the coronaviris pandemic weight, you know, like

1338
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:07,120
Speaker 2: I'm trying to intentionally make myself more susceptible to his

1339
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 2: suggestions so I can make different choices in my life.

1340
01:02:11,080 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 2: And so I think, now we're very careful if like

1341
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,640
Speaker 2: there's even a criticism, Like I firmly believe everybody should

1342
01:02:16,680 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 2: be doing this probably for better relationships. Is that if

1343
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 2: there's anything critical, anything sensitive. General rule is, don't tell

1344
01:02:23,640 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: anybody about themselves. You have to ask first, even if

1345
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,920
Speaker 2: it's kind of a nice thing, you have to ask first,

1346
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 2: because they get to define for their own selves their

1347
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 2: own reality, their own self conception. So I'll ask, you know, like, hey, Aria,

1348
01:02:37,040 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 2: can I say something that's like two out of ten sensitive.

1349
01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,680
Speaker 5: That's another thing we do is we rate everything on

1350
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 5: a zero to ten scale, you know, for describing thing.

1351
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 5: You know, I'm like six out of ten angry with

1352
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:49,400
Speaker 5: you right now, which may makes pretty dang angry, you know,

1353
01:02:49,560 --> 01:02:52,479
Speaker 5: Or I'm like ten happy, or I like this movie ten,

1354
01:02:54,400 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 5: this sounds.

1355
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 1: Like great communication skills, y'all.

1356
01:02:56,600 --> 01:02:58,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's been a work in progress.

1357
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: I did want to revisit real quick. So you were

1358
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:05,240
Speaker 1: saying that you think a lot of psychopath sociopaths had

1359
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: an event in their childhood that caused them to develop

1360
01:03:07,920 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: a defense mechanism as far as the nature nurture question,

1361
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: which we sort of talked about with gender stuff, but

1362
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:17,160
Speaker 1: when it comes to sociopathy, I think I saw emmy

1363
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: that you wrote that you think it's half and half?

1364
01:03:19,160 --> 01:03:20,240
Speaker 1: Is that what you think? Still?

1365
01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like the twin studies show that there's

1366
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:25,560
Speaker 2: definitely a genetic component. And you know, I discussed in

1367
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 2: my book I had like a brother who was like

1368
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 2: an Irish twin, you know, super close in age, was

1369
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 2: almost as much of a twin as you could get

1370
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:34,520
Speaker 2: without being a genetic twin, because we had the same

1371
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 2: life experiences, same environment, et cetera. And he grew up

1372
01:03:38,040 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 2: to be super sensitive, you know, like almost fragile sensitive,

1373
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 2: and I grew up to be the way that I did.

1374
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: And so you can kind of see that there has

1375
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 2: to be some sort of genetic component there, because people

1376
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 2: exposed the same exact thing won't be the exact same.

1377
01:03:51,920 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 2: Are you still LDS, emy, Yes, I am still LDS.

1378
01:03:55,280 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 2: So your parents raised you LDS then, right, Yeah, that's right.

1379
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: So if you hadn't had that framework growing up, how

1380
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 1: different of a person do you think you would be?

1381
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 2: I think for me, the structure really helped me as

1382
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 2: a small child to just have Mormonism be like, this

1383
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 2: is what it is. That was like really simplifying. It

1384
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:13,960
Speaker 2: was like easy to understand, it was easy to apply,

1385
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:16,360
Speaker 2: it was easy to kind of see how it might

1386
01:04:16,400 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 2: be a good idea. And so I think that that

1387
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:20,960
Speaker 2: was really great. And I think if I didn't have that,

1388
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:23,600
Speaker 2: I don't know what my mind would have kind of

1389
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 2: like gone to. I do think that we're very susceptible, though.

1390
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 2: I think it's funny that this is about cults because

1391
01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 2: I think we're super receptive, impressionable, it is probably the

1392
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 2: best word.

1393
01:04:33,640 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 5: Oh definitely, I could definitely fall victim to a cult,

1394
01:04:36,120 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 5: you know, and just for the structure of the thing, yes,

1395
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,200
Speaker 5: and nobody, I don't have to make any more decisions.

1396
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:42,200
Speaker 1: Yes.

1397
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 2: When we first met, Aria was kind of almost even

1398
01:04:44,640 --> 01:04:47,200
Speaker 2: actively seeking a cult, the joining type thing.

1399
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,520
Speaker 1: She was that in love with cults. Wow, I would

1400
01:04:50,600 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 1: expect it to be the opposite. I would expect because

1401
01:04:53,800 --> 01:04:56,960
Speaker 1: you like control so much that you wouldn't want someone

1402
01:04:57,000 --> 01:04:59,120
Speaker 1: to sort of take over take that over for you.

1403
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 2: I think it's ea and less about control and more predictability.

1404
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,920
Speaker 2: And when you're in control, it's predictable. But you don't

1405
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 2: necessarily need to be in control as long as it's predictable.

1406
01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: Wow. But so you seek, you seek, So you want predictability,

1407
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:17,440
Speaker 1: but you also seek variety. Are those things in conflict

1408
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:19,280
Speaker 1: at all? Yes, It's not a good way to live.

1409
01:05:19,320 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 2: That's why the playground save the recording.

1410
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 3: Wow.

1411
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 5: I was listening to the last podcast on the left. Yeah,

1412
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 5: this is my introduction to Colts, and I listened to

1413
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 5: their Heaven's Gate series and I thought, Wow, how wonderful

1414
01:05:31,600 --> 01:05:33,440
Speaker 5: to just already know what you're going to wear that day.

1415
01:05:33,480 --> 01:05:34,960
Speaker 5: You already know what you're going to eat, what you're

1416
01:05:34,960 --> 01:05:37,240
Speaker 5: going to listen to, and you don't have to make

1417
01:05:37,280 --> 01:05:41,120
Speaker 5: all of these choices, right, because I'm often paralyzed by indecision,

1418
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 5: even like choosing an ice cream flavor. I'm like, man,

1419
01:05:43,800 --> 01:05:45,160
Speaker 5: I just have to choose the one that I know

1420
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:46,960
Speaker 5: I like and move on.

1421
01:05:47,560 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's kind of a good point.

1422
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:52,680
Speaker 2: So, like, if you think of most people, their identity

1423
01:05:52,760 --> 01:05:54,920
Speaker 2: is almost like what do we call a normal skeleton

1424
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 2: like ours, indose skeleton, I think, so inside skeleton, right

1425
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 2: that their identity is like, oh, I like chocolate ice

1426
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 2: cream the best. I'm gonna wear pink shirts because I

1427
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:07,480
Speaker 2: like pink. But for a psychopath, they don't have the identity.

1428
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:09,920
Speaker 2: It's almost like there's no skeleton. So I think they

1429
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 2: actually do kind of actively seek out things like colts

1430
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 2: to get kind of like an exoskeleton, just to simplify

1431
01:06:15,720 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 2: the choices, Like, hey, I don't have to choose what

1432
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 2: to wear because somebody else chose it for me. Here

1433
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:19,880
Speaker 2: we go.

1434
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 1: What are some things you would tell people to look

1435
01:06:23,640 --> 01:06:26,640
Speaker 1: out for, just to sort of keep it on theme

1436
01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:29,960
Speaker 1: here for somebody who maybe is not as well intentioned

1437
01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:32,440
Speaker 1: as you both and maybe not as high functioning as

1438
01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:35,560
Speaker 1: you both as a sociopath, Like, what are some telltale signs?

1439
01:06:36,040 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 5: I mean, I have a theory that bad people or

1440
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,200
Speaker 5: mentally ill people are going to tell you the bad

1441
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:43,880
Speaker 5: things that they're going to do to you. You know,

1442
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 5: I've only been in two long term relationships, and my

1443
01:06:46,720 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 5: first relationship I was still very much in the playground stage.

1444
01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:52,280
Speaker 5: And I told her on our first date, you know,

1445
01:06:52,400 --> 01:06:55,480
Speaker 5: ninety percent of what I tell you tonight is complete bullshit.

1446
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 5: But of course she found it to be funny, you know, charming,

1447
01:06:58,800 --> 01:06:59,880
Speaker 5: but it was the truth.

1448
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:00,320
Speaker 1: Right.

1449
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 5: So if people tell you know, you know, I might

1450
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:05,880
Speaker 5: cheat on you, or I am talking to other people

1451
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 5: behind your back, it's often because it is happening.

1452
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I have like kind of another suggestion, you know,

1453
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 2: rather than try to kind of spot things, you know,

1454
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 2: like oh, you know, is this person being malicious, because

1455
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 2: I don't think anyone can do that perfectly. That's almost

1456
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 2: like trying to you know, like buy stocks low and

1457
01:07:22,920 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 2: sell them right when they're at their tank, and buy

1458
01:07:24,800 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 2: them right when they're at their low. Like nobody can

1459
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:28,920
Speaker 2: spend that much time and energy, and you're just not

1460
01:07:29,200 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 2: You're not capable of doing that effectively. So there are

1461
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:34,080
Speaker 2: kind of telltale things. But I would say, just have

1462
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 2: like a very firm personal boundaries, and anybody who is

1463
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 2: still after you have put up your boundary, who is

1464
01:07:41,440 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 2: pushing on that boundary still is not someone to trust.

1465
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 2: So I guess that would be the thing is like

1466
01:07:47,040 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 2: if you don't know your own personal boundaries. Then learn,

1467
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 2: you know, like get a book or go to the

1468
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:54,080
Speaker 2: therapy or something, and you know, like you can learn it,

1469
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,000
Speaker 2: like and maybe a year or two you can have

1470
01:07:56,080 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 2: impeccable personal boundaries and understand when you're imprinting on other

1471
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:02,800
Speaker 2: peop peoples when they're infringing on yours. And that is

1472
01:08:02,840 --> 01:08:06,080
Speaker 2: the best way, one most full proof way to avoid

1473
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 2: a situation like that.

1474
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 1: That's great, that's great, Advie. Well, thank you both so much.

1475
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:14,400
Speaker 1: This has been enlightening and delightful and I'm just so

1476
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:15,160
Speaker 1: glad you came on.

1477
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 5: Thanks for having us.

1478
01:08:16,720 --> 01:08:19,639
Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure. Wow. I never know what to say,

1479
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: but wow, at the end of an interview, I think

1480
01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:23,120
Speaker 1: that's a good thing.

1481
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 4: Wow.

1482
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 1: If you were like, mah, we have such cool guests on,

1483
01:08:27,840 --> 01:08:29,880
Speaker 1: I'm so I'm so proud of us and all our

1484
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:30,559
Speaker 1: cool guests.

1485
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:31,719
Speaker 4: They're so good.

1486
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,000
Speaker 1: I love them all. Even the sosio Paths love them

1487
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:39,559
Speaker 1: so charged. They're so charismatic, as they tell us that

1488
01:08:39,680 --> 01:08:43,720
Speaker 1: Robert Durst is their hero. I'm like, love them so charismatic,

1489
01:08:44,920 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 1: but they are, They're so charming.

1490
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:47,040
Speaker 4: All right.

1491
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 1: Well, so, Megan, obviously this is not a cult. I

1492
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 1: guess I'm wondering, do you think you know any psychopaths

1493
01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 1: sociopaths or have you dated any?

1494
01:08:56,280 --> 01:08:56,919
Speaker 4: For sure?

1495
01:08:57,439 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 5: No?

1496
01:08:57,920 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: Some?

1497
01:08:58,479 --> 01:09:01,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, But have you dated any fuck? I don't know. No,

1498
01:09:01,280 --> 01:09:02,599
Speaker 4: I definitely haven't dated any.

1499
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,240
Speaker 3: Like I date narcissists, which are so similar, and I

1500
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:09,160
Speaker 3: have friends that have been narcissists, which is also similar.

1501
01:09:09,240 --> 01:09:12,719
Speaker 3: But it's different, you know, maybe I have. Maybe that's

1502
01:09:12,720 --> 01:09:14,680
Speaker 3: the thing. Sociopaths would be so good at hiding it.

1503
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:17,360
Speaker 3: I wouldn't even know, whereas narcissists are just so like

1504
01:09:17,479 --> 01:09:20,680
Speaker 3: blatantly selfish.

1505
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 4: Right right?

1506
01:09:21,040 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 2: You know?

1507
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:23,720
Speaker 1: I mean, are sociopaths good at hiding it once you

1508
01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:24,679
Speaker 1: really get to know them?

1509
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:25,640
Speaker 4: I don't know.

1510
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:29,479
Speaker 3: I feel like some serial killers have lived with wives

1511
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:33,759
Speaker 3: who think that they're the nicest true true.

1512
01:09:33,840 --> 01:09:36,240
Speaker 1: But have you ever dated anyone? I'm thinking of one

1513
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,040
Speaker 1: guy I dated it in particular. Have you ever dated

1514
01:09:39,080 --> 01:09:42,000
Speaker 1: anyone who you felt was like going through the motions

1515
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 1: of like performing vulnerability or like performing emotions, but it

1516
01:09:46,320 --> 01:09:49,360
Speaker 1: seemed empty behind the eyes when he was doing it.

1517
01:09:50,240 --> 01:09:54,080
Speaker 4: No, I don't think so. I date very emotional people.

1518
01:09:54,479 --> 01:09:56,680
Speaker 1: Okay, I usually do too, But there's one guy that

1519
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,040
Speaker 1: I sort of casually went out with who I still know.

1520
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:04,040
Speaker 1: We're still friendly, but I would say something about how

1521
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:09,560
Speaker 1: we weren't a fit because I had observed a behavior

1522
01:10:09,680 --> 01:10:13,120
Speaker 1: that was a red flag to me, and I would

1523
01:10:13,240 --> 01:10:16,719
Speaker 1: specify that, like, self awareness is something that's really important

1524
01:10:16,720 --> 01:10:20,320
Speaker 1: to me, and you know, the ability to be vulnerable

1525
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 1: and to not just give in to impulse and not

1526
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:25,920
Speaker 1: try to one up me or whatever. And then I

1527
01:10:25,920 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 1: would see him like doing the thing, like trying to

1528
01:10:29,880 --> 01:10:33,040
Speaker 1: perform vulnerability in a certain way and like trying to

1529
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:35,479
Speaker 1: like do the thing that he thought that I wanted,

1530
01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:40,920
Speaker 1: but it was it was like a like absolutely one performance,

1531
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:43,759
Speaker 1: like not the real thing at all. And this person

1532
01:10:43,840 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 1: is highly successful, he's highly charismatic.

1533
01:10:48,360 --> 01:10:52,840
Speaker 4: So yeah, yeah, I mean.

1534
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:57,559
Speaker 1: A benign one. I think largely a benign one. But like, yeah, dude,

1535
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,440
Speaker 1: it's it's fun. It's fun to diagnose, baby, it's fun to.

1536
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 3: Totally it is it is, unless the court comes and

1537
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 3: needs your official official diagnosis in much case.

1538
01:11:07,880 --> 01:11:11,920
Speaker 4: No, wow, Okay, Yeah, I mean, I'm sure.

1539
01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:15,000
Speaker 3: In the years that I've been alive, I have definitely

1540
01:11:15,080 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 3: dated a sociopath, but I was probably not aware enough yet. Yeah,

1541
01:11:20,880 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 3: lots of narcissists though, I mean they have been fun.

1542
01:11:24,240 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 3: You have to give them.

1543
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 1: That, and then they ruin your life and wait, but

1544
01:11:27,920 --> 01:11:34,400
Speaker 1: you know, keeps it interesting, keeps it spicy.

1545
01:11:34,640 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 4: Shit, all right, that's it. Yeah, okay, that's it.

1546
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:42,480
Speaker 3: Well everybody, thank you for listening. This has been very informative.

1547
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 3: We just need you to remember to follow your gut

1548
01:11:46,960 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 3: watch out for red flat never ever.

1549
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,000
Speaker 1: Trust me, ye