WEBVTT - SYSK Selects: The 'Satanic Panic' of the 1980s 0:00:00.760 --> 0:00:03.440 Hello everyone. It is Saturday, and that means it's time 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:06.680 for a Saturday Stuff you Should Know select episode. As 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:08.920 you know, Josh and I curate these each week. We 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:11.600 take turns going back through the archives and picking out 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.720 some of our favorite episodes. And boy, oh boy, that 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:18.400 I love this one from January two, sixteen, the Satanic 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.040 Panic of the nineteen eighties. We lived through it, we 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.200 talked about it. It's pretty amazing stuff. Check it out 0:00:24.280 --> 0:00:28.160 right now. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:36.760 of our Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.960 the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charlot to be Chuck Bryant, 0:00:40.600 --> 0:00:46.640 uh and this is stuff you should ail. Satan Man 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.480 that would have gotten you locked up a New years ago. Yeah, 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.760 so I want to go ahead and say that I 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:55.680 would like to do one on Satanism. Yeah, for sure, 0:00:55.720 --> 0:00:58.960 the religion misunderstood may include the Church of Satan or 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:04.240 maybe those are two separates. Uh um. And the PMRC 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:10.080 is that the TIPPERD Core organizes. Yeah, I just this. 0:01:10.240 --> 0:01:12.400 This brought back a lot of memories because we lived 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:15.440 through the Satanic Bannock for sure, and I remember it 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.080 very distinctly, like, oh, I can imagine young Baptist, I 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:24.000 was afraid. I can imagine I was very scared. Um. 0:01:24.080 --> 0:01:27.319 I remember like growing up thinking, you know, some of 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:30.360 the big kids are sacrificing things in the woods. Yeah, 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.680 oh yeah, Um, which is I mean like that was 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.440 just part of your normal, everyday thing, like walking around 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.679 thinking that was happening. But um, it turns out in 0:01:38.720 --> 0:01:42.560 retrospect it was all almost entirely made up. Yeah. There 0:01:42.640 --> 0:01:47.560 was also and imagine every neighborhood or town had this 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:51.840 with THEO was off Memorial Drive. That was Satan house 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.040 where supposedly devil worshipers. Yes, yeah, yeah, did you have 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.120 one in your town? Yeah? Yeah, It's so funny to 0:01:59.160 --> 0:02:01.800 me to think about that now. They were probably just nice, 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:06.080 normal people. It's probably some old, uh shut ins, some 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.160 old folks, elderly folks who just couldn't get out of 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.239 the house much, all right. They murdered anybody for years. 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.480 You ever noticed you never see anyone. Yeah, it's kind 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:18.040 of old, kind of dilapidated or run down because they're old. Uh. 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.480 And we want to issue a big c a here, parents, 0:02:22.080 --> 0:02:25.480 This is got some pretty grizzly stuff in it. You 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:27.760 probably don't want your kids listening to this, even though 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:31.200 it was all made up. Uh yeah, but there's some 0:02:32.080 --> 0:02:35.800 detail in some of this that's I found myself even going, oh, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:40.200 we have to say that. So yeah, just it's rated, 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.760 are maybe even X for content? I'm thinking, Chuck, we 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:49.560 should put together the times America lost its mind? Sweet Yeah, 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:55.880 include this UM dissociative identity disorder, UM deep programming, could 0:02:55.919 --> 0:03:01.560 deep program Salem Witchcraft trials. Mccarthier him, McCarthy ism. That's right. 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:03.639 We're going to do it one of these days, will 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:09.720 actually put some of these sweets together. Yeah, he mente right, Okay, 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:12.400 thanks man for letting off the hook. Um. But I 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:14.800 don't know if you guys have picked up on it 0:03:14.919 --> 0:03:17.480 or not, but I keep saying like that never really existed. 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:22.080 It wasn't actually true, It wasn't real. This whole idea 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:26.440 that we're talking about from the roughly the mid eighties 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:29.519 till about the mid nineties, about a ten year period, 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:37.920 America as a whole was gripped by again, there's no 0:03:37.960 --> 0:03:40.880 other way to put it, Satanic panic. This idea that 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:47.279 there were cults of Satan worshippers who were very widespread, 0:03:47.320 --> 0:03:52.080 more than you would think who were abducting, killing, raping, 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.520 molesting our children, mutilating animals, and who had been doing 0:03:56.520 --> 0:03:59.480 it for a very long time in America was just 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:03.440 now waking up to this reality. It's your teachers, it's 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.240 the cops, even the mayor of your town. There's a 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.560 battle between good and evil very much going on right now, 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:14.440 and somehow, some way, and people are still studying this. 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:21.279 Um America clomped onto this idea and ran with it 0:04:21.320 --> 0:04:25.560 like it was for real. The idea that they were murderous, 0:04:26.680 --> 0:04:32.600 child molesting satanic cults operating almost openly in the United 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.640 States was a very deep and widespread belief, not just 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.880 among religious people, although they were at the forefront of 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:45.720 this um, but among people who were writing academic papers 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:50.560 and creating television shows and the news. Um. It was 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.080 people in the courts were subscribed to this. It was 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:58.520 just it was a it was what's called a moral panic. Yeah. 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:00.680 And when I was reading this, even I lived through it, 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.360 I kept thinking, how in the world did this happen 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:08.200 in the nineteen eighties. Nineteen eighties, not the sixteen forties, right, 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:12.520 not hundreds Uh. And it turns out there's a lot 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.920 of reasons why and we gotta go back in time 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:17.800 a little bit to touch on the early reasons you 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:22.640 gotta go back in time. So this was that's a 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.680 vur Way Back Machine theme song. That was just too 0:05:25.720 --> 0:05:29.840 darn loud. What I was continuing with the back of 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:32.640 the Future references, what was too darn loud. Remember Huey 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:36.960 Lewis when he auditioned, he said, I'm sorry, that's just right, 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.800 thank you, thank you for that. Uh. And by the way, 0:05:40.800 --> 0:05:43.080 this is not just the United States. Apparently it was 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:46.320 in the UK, Australia, Canada, South Africa, and South Africa 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.599 still has a cult crimes division. Yeah, I believe it. 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:52.560 So um. Robert Lamb wrote this article of stuff to 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:55.599 blow your mind. Uh. And we're gonna be drawing from 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.960 other articles as well, which will name drop along the way. 0:05:59.000 --> 0:06:02.360 I guess one from Slate that was good. Boom, there's 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:05.200 some name dropping. I've got one for you. I'll hit 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:08.679 it up later. So part of the groundwork was laid 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:12.160 for this in ancient history. Uh. And Robert does a 0:06:12.160 --> 0:06:15.279 good job in pointing out that there is long, especially 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:18.240 when it comes to Christian theology. Long been a divide 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:23.080 between us and them. Heaven and hell, two sides, good 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:26.320 and evil, good and evil, light and dark. I was 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.880 going to repeat that too. What else, Uh, Yin and 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:33.880 Yang Ye's super Christian? No, actually that I think Yin 0:06:33.920 --> 0:06:38.160 and Yang worked together, right, Sure, yeah, we should do 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.440 one on Yin Yang. But a lot of people, Um, 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.960 it's not just Christians, chuck, there's humans subscribe to it 0:06:44.040 --> 0:06:46.960 in group out group mentality. Yeah. Absolutely, Like I took 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:49.599 an anthropology class once and the professor was like, try 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:52.880 to go a day without using words like us, them, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:58.520 We yeah, they, It's impossible, virtually impossible. Politics. That's just 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:00.880 the way our minds go in group out group And 0:07:00.920 --> 0:07:04.840 our group is safe and good. Their group is potentially 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:08.760 threatening and possibly bad. We don't know. Absolutely. So throughout 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:10.760 history this has come up again and again and again, 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:14.320 and innocent people have been persecuted for doing nothing at all. 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:19.600 One good example are the Jewish people. Um. Christians accused 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:24.480 Jews in fourteen seventy five of using blood for kidnapped 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.080 Christian children and rituals, which is pretty ironic because the 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:31.160 Romans just a few hundred years before had accused the 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:35.600 Christians of bathing and dining and feasting on baby's blood. 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:38.480 Us and them once again, baby's blood it's to go 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:43.840 to thing for vilifying an out group. Oh yeah, but 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:45.840 you'll see baby's blood in a lot of these cases 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:48.840 because that's I guess, the hardest blood to get ahold of. 0:07:50.400 --> 0:07:54.600 It's expensive blood and the most grizzly witchcraft everyone. Of 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:56.520 course we did we do one on the Salem witch 0:07:56.560 --> 0:08:00.880 trials or just McCarthy ism. We did one, I believe. Yeah, well, 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:02.680 let's say we have, and if we haven't, we will 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:09.800 like remember on like them being high on air. Goot, yeah, 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:13.600 we did something like that. Okay, alright, So fifteenth century 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:21.920 you had witchcraft persecutions all over Europe, innocent women being killed, drowned, burned, 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.200 you name it. Um. And of course none of this 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:29.560 was true in all cases. Uh. When it comes to art, 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.600 they laid the groundwork. And the nineteenth century, the French 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:40.320 Romantic artist loved painting stuff about Satan and witchcraft and uh. 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:45.000 By the nineteen twenties in the West, we had a 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:52.080 pretty firm established groundwork for believing in things like demons 0:08:52.120 --> 0:08:56.760 and Satan and a fiery hell. Uh and people who 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:00.800 who worshiped this Satan yeah, and a this the weird 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.079 thing is Chuck, is there's this still to this day, 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.199 there's this idea that at some point back in antiquity 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:11.800 at least, there were devil worshippers who like killed for Satan, 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:14.840 and all of this was born out of whole cloth, 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:19.439 fabricated from people who are doing the religious persecution along 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.760 the way and the people who are being tortured to 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:26.120 confess into this kind of stuff. It was all just fabricated. 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.240 But the fact that it was old, the fact that 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:31.360 it was sensational, and the fact that it had been 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:34.600 repeated so many times it gained traction to become this, 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:38.240 to gain this idea that it is historical fact. At 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.240 some point people just take it as fact. But it's 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:44.280 not true. No, it's not true. It's never been satanic 0:09:44.600 --> 0:09:48.600 Satanic death cults in the United States or anywhere else. Right, 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:51.320 these people have never existed. Now that is not to 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.800 say that people haven't killed in the name of Satan 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.679 or anything like that, but there's never been any kind 0:09:56.720 --> 0:10:00.280 of Satanic death cult ever in the His tree of 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.199 the world as far as we can ever tell. It's 0:10:02.200 --> 0:10:05.240 all made up, right, And we want to go further 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.040 by saying that these people who have killed in the 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.720 name of Satan are actually an example of life imitating art. 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:17.840 They're inspired by the the fictitious myth because they're gullible 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:19.560 and buy into it just as much as the people 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:21.400 who think that this stuff is out there too, Like 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:25.480 Richard Ramirez, Sure, and he was driven by Satan or 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:27.200 something like that. There was a girl in the eighties 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:31.680 in Georgia who supposedly killed a friend, um and then 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:35.000 performed a Satanic Ritchell. It's like this stuff did happen, 0:10:35.240 --> 0:10:38.160 but it happened as a result of the Hysteria movie. 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:42.880 It is a positive feedback absolutely. Uh So, now we're 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.400 in the twentieth century and the roots of Satanic panic 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:50.840 can be found all throughout the entertainment industry. Books. There 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.120 was one in ninety seven by Herbert Gorman called The 0:10:54.120 --> 0:10:58.840 Place called Dagon, which was very influential and radical at 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:04.080 the time. Uh. Complete fiction, of course, but that doesn't, um, 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.640 doesn't stop it from establishing firmer roots that this could 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.160 be a thing. Right, That's something that kind of keeps 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:13.760 coming up again and again. Um. A movie or a 0:11:14.080 --> 0:11:18.640 work of fiction will establish some storyline, and then somebody 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:20.480 will have read it and told a friend about it 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:22.680 or something like that, and then it becomes a game 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:26.120 of telephone along the way, somebody stopped saying I read 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.480 in this work of fiction or I saw in this 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.439 movie this happened. Instead it becomes this happened to a 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.600 friend of mine's sister. Yeah, which we'll get to. Urban 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.720 legend is one theory, of course. Uh, and I know 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:42.080 we did a podcast on that. Uh. A couple of 0:11:42.120 --> 0:11:44.840 movies came out, One horror film called The Devil Rides 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.480 Out with the Great Christopher Lee because he was in 0:11:47.559 --> 0:11:50.120 every weird movie. He was great man, he was the 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:55.079 tall man and fantasm Right now, who's that then? Because 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:58.280 really was sure? Was he? Oh no, that's angus somebody, 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.720 You're right? Christopher Lee was the from like the Wicker Man, 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:04.960 and I mean dozens and dozens of horror movies. Play 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.079 Dracula a lot. Rosemary's Baby also came out that year, 0:12:09.200 --> 0:12:13.240 which was way more mainstream, big, big hit, great movie. 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:17.320 Uh yeah, really good. Still very creepy movie with Mia 0:12:17.360 --> 0:12:21.679 Farrow and Cassavettis and Charles CrowdIn. Weirdly, I guess it's 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:25.320 not weird, but I dis associate him with comedy. Yeah, 0:12:25.320 --> 0:12:27.160 but he always plays a straight man, so he could 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.680 go back and forth. Yeah, he could could straddle worlds. 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:34.080 So those movies were were huge as far as planning, 0:12:34.120 --> 0:12:35.840 and you know of course other things like The Omen 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.280 and The Exorcist, and it was just it was just 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.719 a big time for talking about Satan and movies. Yeah, 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.000 it's very popular. What's interesting is you can trace it 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:49.959 back to and initially that um book the place called 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:53.719 Dagon which inspired HP Lovecraft. Yeah that started at all. 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:57.599 Basically Uh, music of course, which if we ever do 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.760 one on the PMRC will get to that, and backmasking 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:03.760 more heavily. But uh, satanic imagery and everything from like 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:09.040 Iron Maiden to King Diamond and Judas. Remember they got 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:13.920 hauled in the court for back masking man people I know. 0:13:14.640 --> 0:13:17.720 And h then you have some real life things, real 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:22.000 life occult like Alistair Crowley and Anton LaVey who really 0:13:22.000 --> 0:13:26.680 didn't help quell satanic panic fearce if anything that helps 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:30.680 set the stage. Now, dressing up like with candles and 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:35.360 and being naked with like cloaks and pentagrams isn't gonna 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:38.640 make people feel any better, but that's what they're doing. 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.960 And if you will, like I said, we'll do on Satanism. 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:44.479 If you look at Satanism, it's it's not let's sacrifice 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.640 animals and throw blood on each other. It's more like, hey, 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:50.400 we're on this earth for a short time, let's party 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:53.760 and just live for ourselves. It's more about hedonism and 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:59.800 being atheist than some weird dark occult Alistair Crowley was darker, 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.720 more sure, and Anton LaVey definitely dressed his brand of 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.280 Satanism up in that kind of like dark theatrics. But 0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:10.280 the really ironic thing about both of those guys the 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:15.000 cult stuff, is that, again it was life imitating art 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:18.280 or life imitating fiction. Their ideas of the black mask 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:21.720 or the witches Sabbath or wearing pentagrams, all that stuff 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.920 came out of those witch persecutions from before they were 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:28.440 fabricated from a whole cloth. So these guys were tapping 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:32.120 into what was already part of the popular culture in 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.480 the in the way of what people thought of Satanism 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.760 and Satanic rituals. And we're just basically playing it up 0:14:37.800 --> 0:14:42.360 to the ante very much so. But two people who 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:46.160 are scared to death of the idea that Satan is 0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:48.720 real and his worshippers are here on earth and are 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.120 ready to kill you. Those guys scared those people and 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:56.800 just proved that this is very real. See look at 0:14:56.800 --> 0:15:00.440 those two Anton LaVey Alistair Crowley proved of that they're 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:03.680 satanic cults exactly. And who knows what's going on behind 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:07.640 that big, huge iron wooden door. All right, well, let's 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:09.520 take a break here and we're gonna come back and 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:15.000 talk a little bit about the nineteen seventies um stranger 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:34.560 danger panic which factors in story. All Right, it's the 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.080 nineteen seventies, and all of a sudden, all you can 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:44.960 hear about on the news is our stories about child pornography, rings, murders, 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:50.600 child murders, kidnappings, uh, crimes involving children in general, and 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.840 not just that Chuck. Like at that time, America was 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.720 really waking up to the um to just how widespread 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:02.360 child abuse was the ninety and seventies, which is great, Yeah, 0:16:02.360 --> 0:16:05.640 it really was, because apparently it took just a couple 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.160 of doctors to really stand up and be like, I'm 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.320 not looking the other way again on these unexplained breaks 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.240 to a child's arm. Um, it's the it's the parents. 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:17.960 You're you're breaking your kid's arms, it's abuse. That's wrong. 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.360 Stopped doing that, and as a result, the government stood 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.320 up and was like, Okay, we need some laws here. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:26.520 One of the things that they enacted were mandatory reporting laws. 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.680 If you're a doctor and you notice signs of child abuse, 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:32.200 you have to report it. And as a result, in 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:36.359 ninety four, child abuse cases went from sixty thousand nationwide 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:40.040 to the year two thousand there were three million reported. Right, 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:43.600 And it was because of public education, a lot more 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.720 visibility um and then mandatory reporting laws. But it had 0:16:47.760 --> 0:16:51.480 this cumulative effect of saying, America, your children are being 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:54.520 they're in danger, and you need to do something about it. 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:57.680 And this child protection movement grew out of it. Yeah. 0:16:57.800 --> 0:17:00.840 I also get the sense that pre the late seventies, 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:04.560 I think the media it was unsavory to report on 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.600 this kind of stuff, like that's that's that family's business. Yeah, 0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.520 and just period, it's like, no one wants to hear 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:13.159 about this stuff. It's awful. Uh. And somehow it got 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:17.960 transferred to probably to drive ratings like this is sensational, 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:21.119 is what it is. Yeah, anytime America is scared, all 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:23.160 you have to do is poke and product and you 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.440 will get people to watch your TV show. That's right, 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:29.800 and it's done very frequently. It's sad and despicable, but 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:33.480 it happens a lot. It still does. There's another aspect 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:37.600 to this too, Chuck Um with the with the child 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:41.920 protection idea. UM. This is also a time the seventies especially, 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.520 is when it when women started to go back to 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.080 work after they had kids. Before they may work, and 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:49.760 then they would have kids and that was it for 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.199 their professional career. They would just stay home. There were 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:53.840 moms for the rest of their time if they ever 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.800 worked at all. Originally right now, in the seventies and 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:00.640 the eighties, women were having kids going back to work, 0:18:00.680 --> 0:18:02.639 and as a result, they were having to leave their 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:06.960 kids in more and more daycare workers care, and so 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.520 this idea that their children were being abused or potentially 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:13.800 abused really resonated with families where their kids are in 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.880 daycare and weren't like constantly under their supervision all the time. 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.240 How well do you know the people watching your kids? 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.719 How much do you trust them? Are they Satanists? And 0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:26.760 this this fear took root because of that um collective 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:29.480 anxiety at the time, with more and more families putting 0:18:29.480 --> 0:18:32.640 their kids in daycare, right or they're just latchkey kids 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:36.320 a little older who remember during the Atlanta child murders, 0:18:36.320 --> 0:18:39.000 do you know where your children aren't to where your 0:18:39.040 --> 0:18:42.960 children are? It was just a time of in a 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:47.040 good way, people were more aware of uh than ever 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:50.760 of potential dangers for their children. So it's not like 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:53.600 it was all bad. But when it goes into panic 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.080 and well, we'll just see what happened. Yeah, I went 0:18:57.119 --> 0:18:59.440 from like zero to one twenty and just a couple 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:02.960 of second basically. So what happened was during the Satanic 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:07.760 panic U Largely it is based around um court cases 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:13.600 where largely daycare centers and people who cared for children 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:18.080 were now being accused of some of the craziest things 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.439 you could ever imagine in your entire life. And like 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:24.280 you said, one of the reasons this was fueled was 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:29.040 very much because parents could relate to it. Uh. I mean, 0:19:29.040 --> 0:19:30.320 should we go ahead and talk about a couple of 0:19:30.400 --> 0:19:33.600 these cases. Yeah, um, you know, the whole thing sounds 0:19:33.640 --> 0:19:39.760 crazy and weird and everything, but just innocuous, I guess 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:44.120 until you come across the court cases and then you're like, oh, real, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:46.840 people lost decades of their lives, because of this, because 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:52.879 gulibal people were in position of power and lock them up. Yeah, 0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.520 all right, let's talk about the killers. What was the 0:19:55.560 --> 0:20:00.199 actual This is one in Texas. Yeah, in Austin and Austin, Texas. Uh. 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.080 Frances and Dan Keller ran a daycare center out of 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:09.320 their home and were accused of the following things, among others, 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:14.920 drowning and dismembering babies in front of other children, killing animals, 0:20:14.960 --> 0:20:17.679 dogs and cats in front of children. And baby tigers, 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.800 baby tigers, that's right. Uh, taking the kids to Mexico 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:26.960 to be abused sexually by Mexican army soldiers and then 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:29.199 brought back in time for their parents to pick them up. 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.960 That's right. Uh, dressing his pumpkins, this is my favorite. 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.080 And shooting children in the arms and legs, Putting children 0:20:37.119 --> 0:20:41.280 into a pool with sharks that eight babies, putting blood 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:43.800 in their kool aid, forcing children to carry the bones 0:20:44.680 --> 0:20:50.240 of of bodies that they had dug up. And this 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:52.560 is just a few. And I'm getting most of this 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:56.119 from this great Slate article, The Real Victims of Satanic 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.639 Ritual Abuse s r A by Linda Rodriguez McRobie. So 0:21:00.680 --> 0:21:04.639 the colors were accused of all this stuff. UM. And 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.000 here's generally what happens. Robert points out a lot of 0:21:07.000 --> 0:21:11.600 times it starts with one, UM, perhaps credible case of 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:16.880 child abuse, yeah, sexual or otherwise, And then that's snowballs. 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:20.560 They tell the parents, maybe this is going on. So 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:24.479 they tell the parents, uh, hey, that your child may 0:21:24.520 --> 0:21:28.040 being may be abused. The parents start looking, They start 0:21:28.080 --> 0:21:31.200 talking to other parents in that same daycare center. They 0:21:31.200 --> 0:21:33.840 start looking, they start asking their kids, and at all 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:38.119 snowballs into these little preschoolers, basically making stuff up. And 0:21:38.160 --> 0:21:41.240 not only that, it's like, yeah, yeah, I've heard about that, 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:44.399 not just abused, Like it's some Satanists that are like 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:46.879 molesting children and murdering them. And the parents are like 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:50.600 what or that plays into something they'd already heard on 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.920 on TV, which we'll talk about the media's role in this. UM. 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.000 And like you said, it's snowballs and snowballs and all 0:21:56.000 --> 0:22:01.800 of a sudden, um, once concerned parents get involved, um 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:06.080 and start talking to one another. Panicked concerned parents eat Um. 0:22:06.240 --> 0:22:09.720 Then people can end up falsely accused of some pretty 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:14.120 horrendous stuff. People stopped thinking critically, and UM, you've got 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:17.600 problems if you're on the receiving end of finger being 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:19.640 pointed at you. Well, yeah, because if you're a parent, 0:22:19.720 --> 0:22:22.359 your child goes to this daycare center, another parent and 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.000 the cops come and say, hey, this parents kid was 0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:28.320 sexually abused. What parents going to be like, Oh, I'm 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:31.199 sure it's fine, you're fine, quick complaining, I'm not going 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.640 to check out my kids. Take a salt tablet um. 0:22:34.760 --> 0:22:40.120 So so with with with the McMartin case, which happened 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:44.720 in um southern California. Yeah, and and actually UM ended 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.560 up helping turn the tide against this. But the McMartin 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:51.159 case and then the Keller case in Texas, both of 0:22:51.160 --> 0:22:57.720 those were bolstered actually by bad medical testimony by inexperienced 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.920 doctors who didn't know what they were looking at, who, 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:05.159 in their defense a little bit um was the at 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:07.439 the time, no one knew no one was looking at 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:10.760 little kids like three year olds of vaginas in describing 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:14.320 what normal ones looked like. So since you didn't know 0:23:14.359 --> 0:23:17.600 what to look for, but I thought you were looking 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:22.520 for evidence of sexual abuse, anything could conceivably look like, 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:26.240 evidence of say, um vaginal trauma or something like that. 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.160 And in the case of the Kellers, in particular, UM, 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.879 the little girl who was basically, I guess um accuser 0:23:34.000 --> 0:23:38.760 zero of this um it was, was examined and found 0:23:38.800 --> 0:23:43.840 that um her vagina showed some evidence of trauma. Later on, 0:23:43.920 --> 0:23:48.280 the doctor, after gaining decades of experience, saw that, No, 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:51.680 that was totally normal what I saw and is not 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:56.720 the it's I basically gave false testimony unwittingly, and I'm sorry. 0:23:57.680 --> 0:23:59.760 And that was a huge thing because these people were 0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:03.280 sucked away because of medical testimony. And again, the case 0:24:03.320 --> 0:24:06.359 against the mcmartin's was also bolstered by bad medical advice 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:08.879 as well or bad medical testimony. Yeah. So with the 0:24:08.960 --> 0:24:12.240 killer case, Uh, the patient or not patient victim zero, 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:17.720 Christie Cheviers Chevier, I don't know how you would say. 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:20.639 She was three years old, didn't go to the daycare 0:24:20.640 --> 0:24:25.840 center much, uh, and told her mom that dan Keller 0:24:25.880 --> 0:24:30.160 had spanked her. That's what started this whole thing. So 0:24:30.280 --> 0:24:34.359 all of a sudden, the mom says, uh, and here's 0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:39.800 a key fact, you're the mom goes to her therapist. H. Yeah, 0:24:39.880 --> 0:24:42.480 Donna David Campbell, who the little girl was seeing because 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:44.840 she had been acting out. She's like a central figure 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:49.760 in this whole thing. This whole who the doctor. Yeah, 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.560 so they go to her and say, listen, something's going 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:54.560 on here. Can you talk to her about it? And 0:24:54.600 --> 0:24:58.080 all of a sudden, uh, Donna Campbell, Donna David Campbell 0:24:58.080 --> 0:25:03.119 starts coaxing out all the is really bizarre allegations about 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:06.200 what's going on there. Uh. They made us take off 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:09.480 our clothes and had a parrot peck us on the pep. 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:13.119 That was one that was the earliest accusation that that 0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:16.320 formed the foundation of this whole case, the basis of 0:25:16.400 --> 0:25:20.600 the snowball. Yes, so this is this is this is 0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:23.160 what begins the snowball. This is when the mom goes 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:25.120 to the other parents like you hear, what's going on here, 0:25:25.560 --> 0:25:28.200 look at what's happened to my daughter? And what's really 0:25:28.240 --> 0:25:32.600 happening here is something called uh. It was part of 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:37.160 the recovered therapy recovered memory therapy movement, which was very 0:25:37.200 --> 0:25:40.879 big at the time in psychology. Basically the idea that 0:25:40.920 --> 0:25:45.440 we have these repressed memories um that of abuse. Many 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:47.800 people do that they have no idea of and it's 0:25:47.840 --> 0:25:50.400 up to the therapist to bring these out of us. Yeah. 0:25:50.480 --> 0:25:53.600 That's almost like a separate, intertwined thread to this whole 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:56.840 Satanic Panic thing. The Satanic ritual abuse is the recovered 0:25:56.880 --> 0:26:01.320 memory therapy movement, right, and um was the Satanic Panic 0:26:01.400 --> 0:26:05.440 can actually trace its roots directly to a book from 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:08.280 nineteen seventy two by a guy named Mike warren Key. 0:26:08.880 --> 0:26:12.760 He was a Christian stand up comedian. He also was 0:26:12.880 --> 0:26:14.679 totally full of it. He wrote a book called The 0:26:14.680 --> 0:26:16.959 Satan Seller where he talked about his life as a 0:26:16.960 --> 0:26:21.400 former Satanic cult priest, I believe, and drug dealer. And 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:25.000 he was eventually exposed far too late by the Christian 0:26:25.040 --> 0:26:28.480 magazine Cornerstone as almost entirely fraudulent and made up in 0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:32.800 just a liar, But his book just sold like wildfire 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:37.159 through the Christian fundamentalist community and basically really established the 0:26:37.160 --> 0:26:39.960 groundwork for the idea that they were Satanic cults operating 0:26:40.000 --> 0:26:43.360 in the United States. Right. For for the thread of 0:26:43.400 --> 0:26:48.720 the Recovered Memory um movement that formed part of the 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:51.359 Satanic Panic, you can trace that back to a book 0:26:51.400 --> 0:26:56.359 from nineteen eighty called I Think Michelle Remembers Yeah Night. 0:26:56.440 --> 0:27:00.240 And this was, by the way, I was on the 0:27:00.280 --> 0:27:03.280 cover of a Christian magazine in the nineteen eighties, Cornerstone Magazine. 0:27:03.560 --> 0:27:07.080 I thought it was, but it wasn't Guide Posts. I 0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:10.080 heard of that. That's a that's a big time Christian magazine. Man, 0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:13.560 that's a cover boy one, what nice? What were you 0:27:13.600 --> 0:27:16.160 doing on the cover? I was. I was at a 0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:18.240 church camp one summer and that was just like it 0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:21.080 was like a four panel cover of just kids having 0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:22.600 fun at church camp and I was one of them. 0:27:22.840 --> 0:27:26.840 The May eighty two issue. Man, I hope. I wish 0:27:26.840 --> 0:27:28.560 I could track that thing down. They'd be great. You 0:27:28.840 --> 0:27:31.320 if anyone out there has the issue of Chuck on 0:27:31.400 --> 0:27:33.679 the cover of guide Post magazine from do you remember 0:27:33.680 --> 0:27:38.280 the year roughly? Uh, it would have been um probably 0:27:38.320 --> 0:27:41.840 between nineteen eighty five and nineteen eight seven. Okay, we 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:45.200 need that everyone. I wanted to post that that cover. 0:27:46.359 --> 0:27:49.320 That would be awesome. So this book, Michelle remembers, it 0:27:49.480 --> 0:27:52.240 was a it was just like dropping a bomb in 0:27:52.280 --> 0:27:57.840 the midst of this everybody. So everyone was transitioning from 0:27:58.000 --> 0:28:01.840 who can we start pointing at and persecuting now that 0:28:01.880 --> 0:28:05.520 we've decided the colts are okay and we're gonna stop 0:28:05.560 --> 0:28:08.639 deprogramming them, who can we do? What can we do next? 0:28:08.840 --> 0:28:10.480 And this book comes in the midst of that. In 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.600 nineteen eighty and it's a book about a woman named 0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:17.440 Michelle and her therapist Lawrence passed her. Yeah, he wrote 0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:22.040 it and he he was he helped her uncover repressed 0:28:22.080 --> 0:28:27.040 memories of being ritually satanically abused or Satanic ritually abused 0:28:27.160 --> 0:28:30.240 in the nineteen fifties in Vancouver. Yeah, he actually ended 0:28:30.320 --> 0:28:33.480 up marrying her, and he coined the term ritual abuse. 0:28:33.800 --> 0:28:38.560 That lies directly at his feet. And Uh, this thing 0:28:38.720 --> 0:28:40.320 had a lot of attraction. I mean, this lady was 0:28:40.360 --> 0:28:43.720 on Oprah, she did the talk show circuit for years. 0:28:43.880 --> 0:28:46.040 The guy was used as as an expert witness in 0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:50.960 court cases like he's. He founded a whole movement in psychology. 0:28:51.120 --> 0:28:53.640 It was completely debunked. Yeah, and the whole idea is 0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:57.520 it's based on this premise that if you undergo a 0:28:57.560 --> 0:29:00.920 traumatic experience, your mind is going to try to repress 0:29:01.000 --> 0:29:03.720 that memory, but it's gonna have all sorts of horrible 0:29:03.720 --> 0:29:05.440 effects in your life. You're gonna be an alcoholic and 0:29:05.440 --> 0:29:07.840 a drug addict and maybe a child abuser and you 0:29:07.880 --> 0:29:10.280 won't know why, but it's because you were abused as 0:29:10.320 --> 0:29:13.480 a child, probably by Satanists, and you covered it up. 0:29:13.520 --> 0:29:15.880 And you need to go to therapy to have it unlocked, 0:29:16.600 --> 0:29:18.520 And a lot of people went to therapy and had 0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:22.719 these memories unlocked, which only proved Pastor's point even further. Right, 0:29:23.160 --> 0:29:26.080 the problem is is if when they were re examined, 0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:29.640 they were pseudo memories. Through the power of suggestion and 0:29:29.760 --> 0:29:33.240 over zealous UM therapists, a lot of people form memories 0:29:33.240 --> 0:29:36.680 of stuff that never happened. Yeah, the problem is recovered 0:29:36.720 --> 0:29:40.520 memory therapy. There's little to no scientific evidence that it's 0:29:40.560 --> 0:29:45.960 a thing at all that people unconsciously repressed these memories. Um. 0:29:46.040 --> 0:29:49.800 The Royal College of Psychiatrists in Britain, Uh, they have 0:29:49.880 --> 0:29:53.840 officially banned its members from using it altogether. The British 0:29:53.840 --> 0:29:59.120 Psychological Society says, you can use it, but you can't 0:29:59.160 --> 0:30:02.400 draw any prem sure conclusions. You have to have evidence, 0:30:02.520 --> 0:30:05.800 not just well this is what they said in therapy. Right, 0:30:05.800 --> 0:30:08.680 So that's a repressed memory that came to the surface. Right. 0:30:08.720 --> 0:30:10.160 And the A M A. I'm sorry, the A p 0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:13.520 A and the United States, Uh, their official stance was 0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:17.440 issued nineteen eighty I'm sorry. N Uh. There's a consensus 0:30:17.480 --> 0:30:20.440 among memory researches and clinicians that most people who are 0:30:20.440 --> 0:30:23.320 sexually abused as children remember all or part of what 0:30:23.400 --> 0:30:26.000 happened to them, although they may not fully understand or 0:30:26.040 --> 0:30:30.760 disclose it. So a competent psychotherapist is um likely to 0:30:30.800 --> 0:30:34.040 acknowledge that current knowledge does not allow the definite conclusion 0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:39.520 without corroborating evidence. So again, the general consensus is that 0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:46.960 people don't completely unconsciously forget everything that happened. It's virtually impossible. Um. 0:30:47.120 --> 0:30:50.880 And so there this idea that during therapy, while you're 0:30:50.920 --> 0:30:54.480 coaxing these memories out, you're actually forming pseudotherapy is backed 0:30:54.560 --> 0:30:57.760 up by a lot of follow up Researchudo memory pseudo memory, sorry, 0:30:58.080 --> 0:31:01.000 um is backed up by research. There's a searcher, famous 0:31:01.000 --> 0:31:06.240 memory researcher named Elizabeth Loftus. She found that participants of 0:31:06.320 --> 0:31:10.480 the study came to believe that they had done something 0:31:10.520 --> 0:31:14.880 they hadn't when confronted with witnesses who said that they 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:16.959 had done it. That's the real danger in all this 0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:19.719 sure is that these memories become just as valid as 0:31:19.760 --> 0:31:23.080 real memories and do damage because they aren't real. And 0:31:23.080 --> 0:31:25.040 there's actually a real life case that came out of 0:31:25.080 --> 0:31:28.040 all this who this one was crazy? Paul Ingram. Paul 0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:32.680 Ingram was a sheriff's deputy um. And he was accused 0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:37.120 by his young daughter of Satanic ritually abusing her, and 0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:40.360 that he was a member of a Satanic cult and 0:31:40.440 --> 0:31:44.320 that um, she had been raped by this cult six 0:31:44.360 --> 0:31:47.320 to eight hundred times. Um, they had been involved in 0:31:47.360 --> 0:31:50.680 the murder of twenty five babies at least. And paul 0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:55.280 Ingram said, I don't remember any of this, but um, 0:31:56.320 --> 0:31:59.200 you must be right. So I am going to confess 0:31:59.480 --> 0:32:01.240 he was a true too, wouldn't he. Yeah, he was 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.720 a fundamentalist um Christian. So he was very much primed 0:32:04.720 --> 0:32:07.320 to believe that there is um a very a very 0:32:07.400 --> 0:32:10.720 real Satan roaming the earth. And if his daughter is 0:32:10.800 --> 0:32:13.640 telling him that he did this, why what what reason 0:32:13.640 --> 0:32:16.120 does she have to lie? So he actually, I mean 0:32:16.120 --> 0:32:18.960 he bought into it and took the rap for this 0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:21.959 even though it never happened. No one ever showed that 0:32:22.000 --> 0:32:24.960 any of this stuff happened. Yeah, he served his full 0:32:24.960 --> 0:32:27.320 prisons and it's of twenty years, twenty years and maybe 0:32:27.360 --> 0:32:31.720 didn't even do it anything. Yeah, But he himself said, well, 0:32:31.720 --> 0:32:34.520 I don't know, maybe I did, and I think he 0:32:34.600 --> 0:32:37.040 fully bought into it over to such a weird reversal 0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:41.520 in that case, you know, UM should we take another 0:32:41.560 --> 0:32:44.080 break maybe, so all right, we'll take another break here 0:32:44.080 --> 0:32:47.200 and talk about the media and then some other theories 0:32:47.240 --> 0:33:05.560 in cases in satanic panic story. All right, if you 0:33:06.040 --> 0:33:09.240 were alive during the nineteen eighties and early nineties, which 0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:16.040 I was, then, you remember Oprah, Haraldouble, Sally, Jesse, Raphael, 0:33:16.840 --> 0:33:21.040 you name it, every single talk show, Dona Hue doing 0:33:21.280 --> 0:33:25.719 lots and lots of shows on satanic death cults. If 0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:28.479 it's two pm on a Wednesday afternoon and you want 0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:30.360 to figure out how to get America to turn their 0:33:30.360 --> 0:33:32.560 TV to your station, you would have had a choice 0:33:32.560 --> 0:33:35.960 of different shows to watch, probably totally yeah, on the 0:33:36.000 --> 0:33:39.560 same day, right, um, and yeah, everybody did Satanists and 0:33:39.640 --> 0:33:42.200 Horaldo was the king of this. He actually had a 0:33:42.240 --> 0:33:47.800 two hour primetime special in called Exposing Satan's Underground and 0:33:47.840 --> 0:33:50.440 it is on YouTube and I think about teen parts. 0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:52.760 I watched one of them where he had Assie on 0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:57.880 and Ozzie's like, uh for Ozzie, he's Ozzie looks like 0:33:58.000 --> 0:34:01.440 a pre golden girl's door. The is the way he's 0:34:01.520 --> 0:34:04.720 dressed and done up. It's awesome. But he's like, I 0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:09.239 don't mean to freak anybody out with music. Um. He 0:34:09.280 --> 0:34:11.920 doesn't know what to make of this, but was like, 0:34:11.960 --> 0:34:13.520 as he just sit there, we'll get back to you. Like, 0:34:14.040 --> 0:34:17.280 but there's this classic line in this right, Haralda goes 0:34:17.880 --> 0:34:20.680 they're talking about a murder that was carried out by 0:34:20.719 --> 0:34:26.120 this boy and um, Haraldo says to this copy, goes, detective, 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:29.000 you're a cop, not a theologian, but let me ask you. 0:34:29.600 --> 0:34:34.160 Was this boy possessed? Dead? Serious? And the cop was like, 0:34:34.880 --> 0:34:37.279 I he had just a little bits like I think 0:34:37.280 --> 0:34:39.719 that's a state of mind. But yeah, and in that sense, yes, 0:34:39.719 --> 0:34:42.359 I think he was. Haralda doesn't get what he's looking 0:34:42.360 --> 0:34:44.319 for out of the guy, so he goes to an 0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:47.359 actual theologian, a priest. He goes, uh, you know you're 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:51.560 you're you're charged with um investigating these cases for the 0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:54.359 Catholic Church. Do you think that this is a case 0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:57.200 of possession? He's like absolutely, And harld was like, yes, 0:34:57.840 --> 0:35:00.000 that's what I was looking for. But that's the level 0:35:00.080 --> 0:35:03.240 of journalism that people were tuning into on like NBC 0:35:03.440 --> 0:35:06.360 at eight o'clock for two hours in like the highest 0:35:06.400 --> 0:35:09.640 rated two hour TV documentary ever and a third or 0:35:09.680 --> 0:35:12.839 a half of America is like, what idiot believes this 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:15.439 is the most entertaining thing I've ever seen. The other 0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:18.520 half is scared to death and thinks that all of 0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:21.040 this is totally real. Yeah, you know, it's easy to 0:35:21.120 --> 0:35:23.640 laugh about now, but shame on all of them. Well, 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:28.040 Haraldough came out and said, I want to apologize for 0:35:28.239 --> 0:35:31.040 that bit of journalism. That was really bad, and I'm 0:35:31.080 --> 0:35:33.359 sorry for it. But I mean that's how he made 0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:35.319 his name with stuff like that. Well, he was caught 0:35:35.360 --> 0:35:38.359 up in the moral panic everyone was doing it. There 0:35:38.400 --> 0:35:44.240 was a book in children's picture book UM called Don't 0:35:44.280 --> 0:35:47.400 Make Me Go Back, Mommy Colin, a child's book about 0:35:47.440 --> 0:35:52.080 satanic ritual abuse to read to your children or if 0:35:52.080 --> 0:35:55.560 you were a therapist, to use in therapy, right, you 0:35:55.600 --> 0:35:58.640 know that. Well they also had in many of the 0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:02.040 court cases a little little anatomically correct rag dolls that 0:36:02.080 --> 0:36:04.040 they would use in court like you know, show me 0:36:04.080 --> 0:36:06.759 where you were touched and things like this, which I'm 0:36:06.760 --> 0:36:10.080 sure that has valid use as well, and you know, 0:36:10.120 --> 0:36:12.840 like sex abuse cases for sure, but you're like completely 0:36:12.840 --> 0:36:17.160 poopooing that you have to, um, you have to use that. 0:36:17.360 --> 0:36:20.520 I would imagine you your training in how to do 0:36:20.560 --> 0:36:25.520 that correctly without inadvertently or advertently leading the child on 0:36:25.760 --> 0:36:30.520 into creating some sort of pseudo memory. It should be extensive, 0:36:30.560 --> 0:36:34.799 I would guess, you know, I mean, yeah, So the 0:36:34.840 --> 0:36:39.040 media was definitely complicit in all this. Really saw that 0:36:39.080 --> 0:36:42.560 there's a lot of ratings to be had in just 0:36:42.640 --> 0:36:45.680 fanning the flames of the satanic panic, and I think 0:36:45.719 --> 0:36:48.799 a lot of people bought into it as well. Um 0:36:48.880 --> 0:36:52.200 And then so too were things like the um the 0:36:52.239 --> 0:36:55.200 field of psychiatry and psychology very much complicit in this 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:58.560 by allowing repressed memory therapy to really spread as much 0:36:58.600 --> 0:37:02.040 as it did without any kind of real, um verified 0:37:02.080 --> 0:37:05.040 research into whether it was real or not. And to 0:37:05.160 --> 0:37:07.719 defend them a little bit, Robert also makes the points 0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:10.279 they're probably well meaning, probably thinking they were doing this 0:37:10.360 --> 0:37:14.440 great work, like helping these kids, but like with no 0:37:14.520 --> 0:37:19.200 scientific basis whatsoever, right, and lacking a lot of critical 0:37:19.239 --> 0:37:21.920 thinking too. And they dressed as pumpkins and shot the 0:37:22.000 --> 0:37:24.120 kids in the arms and the legs. Where are the 0:37:24.160 --> 0:37:27.279 bullet wounds? How exactly did they get the kids to 0:37:27.480 --> 0:37:30.840 Mexico and then back to Austin in the average daycare 0:37:30.920 --> 0:37:34.279 day Secret tunnels, you know, secret tunnels. That was an 0:37:34.360 --> 0:37:37.720 explanation there was a lot there. There wasn't enough critical thinking. 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:42.800 So you can definitely take UM the media, psychology, psychiatry 0:37:43.160 --> 0:37:47.000 UM and a lot of UM law enforcement investigators to 0:37:47.200 --> 0:37:50.799 task for this. But really there are a lot of 0:37:50.920 --> 0:37:55.640 hucksters and frosters making a lot of money as UM 0:37:55.840 --> 0:37:59.520 satanic experts at the time. Both is like legal UM, 0:37:59.680 --> 0:38:05.719 legal UH representatives, UM expert witnesses, expert witnesses, authors UM 0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:09.879 going on shows like Heraldo and Sally Jesse, Raphael uh 0:38:09.920 --> 0:38:12.799 and those people are really should bear the brunt of 0:38:12.840 --> 0:38:17.480 this because they were just lying, yeah, lying, lying, lying 0:38:17.520 --> 0:38:21.120 their faces off UM and and scaring people to death 0:38:21.280 --> 0:38:23.560 and making a lot of money out of it. Uh. 0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:25.520 So he said it was widespread. There was a Red 0:38:25.560 --> 0:38:28.600 Book magazine survey in and this is at the end 0:38:28.640 --> 0:38:31.040 of the whole thing. Yeah true, UM that found that 0:38:31.080 --> 0:38:35.839 seventy percent of Americans believed in Satanic ritual abuse. Uh. 0:38:35.880 --> 0:38:39.120 And in n this is the really scary one. A 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:43.279 survey by the American Bar Association Center on Children and 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:47.560 the Law found that twenty six a quarter more than 0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:50.680 a quarter of prosecutors said they handled at least one 0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:54.320 case involving ritual Satanic ritual abuse during that time period. 0:38:57.360 --> 0:38:59.960 So UM. Within that time too, there was a very 0:39:00.080 --> 0:39:06.279 famous case in West Memphis, Arkansas, the West Memphis Three UM, 0:39:06.320 --> 0:39:10.520 who were very famously exonerated thanks to crack documentary filmmaking 0:39:11.080 --> 0:39:14.000 UM on HBO's half. As a matter of fact, HBO 0:39:14.160 --> 0:39:18.520 really led the vanguard against this whole satanic panic. UM 0:39:18.560 --> 0:39:24.080 they released in UH documentary. I think it was a 0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:27.160 biopic on the McMartin trial. It wasn't a documentary. I 0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:30.960 think it was like dramatized, and that really started to 0:39:31.080 --> 0:39:34.480 change the tide of how academics, intellectuals, and in the 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:38.560 media itself saw satanic ritual abuse started to expose it 0:39:38.600 --> 0:39:41.799 as this is not real. Yeah, and this is after 0:39:41.880 --> 0:39:45.040 the McMartin trial had been the longest and most expensive 0:39:45.040 --> 0:39:47.359 trial in the history of the United States. That's right, 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:52.960 fifteen sixteen million dollars spent for with zero can convictions 0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:56.520 because it didn't happen UM. And that case actually was 0:39:56.760 --> 0:39:59.640 UM started with a woman who believed her child had 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:02.120 been sexu abused, and the woman actually sadly went on 0:40:02.200 --> 0:40:05.120 to die from alcohol poisoning a couple of years later, 0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:08.320 was schizophrenic. She was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic in 0:40:08.400 --> 0:40:11.000 that time, and yet nobody stopped and said, oh, well, 0:40:11.040 --> 0:40:14.319 wait a minute, she was the center of the accusers 0:40:14.360 --> 0:40:17.480 of all this. Should we take another look at all this? 0:40:17.560 --> 0:40:19.680 It was like, no, let's spend fifteen million dollars of 0:40:19.719 --> 0:40:22.960 taxpayer money trying to prosecute these people and get zero 0:40:23.000 --> 0:40:25.839 convictions out of it. Um, the West Memphis three were 0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:31.520 successfully prosecuted in Arkansas, I mean railroaded. There is no 0:40:31.680 --> 0:40:34.080 other way to put this, thanks to something like a 0:40:34.080 --> 0:40:37.959 false confession by Jesse ms Kelly um, which is mind 0:40:37.960 --> 0:40:40.880 blowing until you should go listen to our episode on 0:40:40.920 --> 0:40:44.160 false confessions, which I believe you did that one right. Uh, 0:40:44.440 --> 0:40:46.279 either that or it was a part of another one. 0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:50.040 But yeah, we covered that topic for um and and 0:40:50.560 --> 0:40:53.000 all of that was based on the satanic panic thing 0:40:53.040 --> 0:40:55.719 as well. Um, but you go. You should definitely watch 0:40:55.760 --> 0:40:59.480 those again. HBO documentaries Paradise Lost, one, two, and three 0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:02.560 and the a Um they made the original and Paradise 0:41:02.600 --> 0:41:05.279 Lost the Child Murders of Robin Hood Hills and I 0:41:05.320 --> 0:41:07.520 think they thought it was the same guy. Did you 0:41:07.520 --> 0:41:11.920 see Brothers Keeper the other documentary? Yeah, about the older 0:41:12.160 --> 0:41:14.879 older brothers. Love that one man. That's the same guy 0:41:14.960 --> 0:41:17.080 that Brothers Keepers will put him on the map. So 0:41:17.120 --> 0:41:20.239 I think he thought that Paradise Lost One was just 0:41:20.360 --> 0:41:26.560 the documentary. And to his credit, Joe biden Burlinger, I 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:30.920 think he uh, he really championed this case and followed 0:41:30.960 --> 0:41:33.000 it to its conclusion over the course of two more 0:41:33.000 --> 0:41:35.560 documentaries over the years. Yeah, and from what I understand, 0:41:35.600 --> 0:41:39.280 he changed his mind about the content or the crime 0:41:39.680 --> 0:41:42.960 mid stream, Like I think, didn't he go there thinking 0:41:42.960 --> 0:41:44.840 he was just covering the crime, And then when I 0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:47.239 actually saw what was going on, I was like, whoa, Yeah, 0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:49.920 I think I think he was. I mean, because of him, 0:41:49.960 --> 0:41:53.120 they were exonerated ultimately. Yeah, Like he got three people 0:41:53.440 --> 0:41:56.160 out of prison, one off death row. Yeah, um yeah, 0:41:56.320 --> 0:41:58.400 hats off. But again, this is part of the Satanic 0:41:58.400 --> 0:42:02.680 panic scare um and that not that one that kind 0:42:02.680 --> 0:42:05.400 of came at the end of it. But the McMartin 0:42:06.040 --> 0:42:09.359 movie on HBO started to change the tide, and so 0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:12.440 too to the exoneration of a woman named um Margaret 0:42:12.520 --> 0:42:16.560 Kelly Michael's in New Jersey. Um In. She was let 0:42:16.640 --> 0:42:20.319 out of prison after it was revealed how coercive the 0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:24.600 questioning was. Um of the children who ended up accusing 0:42:24.600 --> 0:42:26.600 her of this, and that was true in every case. 0:42:26.600 --> 0:42:28.480 It seems like it was. It shed a lot of 0:42:28.560 --> 0:42:31.680 light onto this and people started going like, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, Wait, 0:42:31.920 --> 0:42:34.839 this is coercive. Let's look at these other cases. And 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:38.840 you go back and look at the transcripts and see like, Okay, 0:42:38.880 --> 0:42:41.200 these people were basically telling the kids what they wanted 0:42:41.239 --> 0:42:45.320 to hear. They were using approval whenever the kids said 0:42:45.400 --> 0:42:48.879 something that that pointed the finger. They were using disapproval 0:42:48.920 --> 0:42:53.080 when the kids refused to talk or whatever or implicate 0:42:53.120 --> 0:42:55.520 anyone um. And if you go back and really listen 0:42:55.520 --> 0:42:57.440 to what the kids are saying, a lot of the 0:42:57.480 --> 0:42:59.920 times they're like, no, nothing happened. Well, and then they 0:43:00.040 --> 0:43:02.480 would follow that with are you sure this didn't happen? 0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.200 Are you sure this didn't happen? You're not supposed to 0:43:05.280 --> 0:43:07.520 do that, and you're certainly not supposed to put people 0:43:07.520 --> 0:43:09.719 in prison for half of their lives. Well, and you're 0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:12.120 especially not supposed to do that to a kid who's 0:43:12.160 --> 0:43:15.640 highly suggestible and wants to please, because most kids want 0:43:15.680 --> 0:43:19.200 to please. And when you look at some of these allegations, 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:22.160 it sounds like if you asked a three year old 0:43:22.200 --> 0:43:25.440 to make up what they think ritual abuse would be. 0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:28.399 Here's here's what a kid would say. Yeah, they locked 0:43:28.440 --> 0:43:31.040 us in a closet with spiders and snakes. Yeah, they 0:43:31.040 --> 0:43:33.080 put us in a pool with sharks that ate babies, 0:43:33.120 --> 0:43:36.800 and they fed us baby parts. So. UM, the real 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:43.080 death knell of the Satanic ritual abuse scare came UM 0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:46.640 with a meta survey for UM, the National Center and 0:43:46.719 --> 0:43:54.480 Child Abuse and Neglect. And this study it contacted UM prosecutors, 0:43:54.880 --> 0:43:58.560 regular lawyers, social workers, psychologists, I think that was it, 0:43:58.880 --> 0:44:01.320 thousands and tens of thousands of them across the country. 0:44:01.560 --> 0:44:05.560 Ended up whittling it down to a sizeable sample and 0:44:05.600 --> 0:44:10.000 found UM all sorts of things. Specifically, what they found 0:44:10.160 --> 0:44:14.120 is there was no evidence whatsoever of any Satanic cults 0:44:14.160 --> 0:44:16.280 operating anywhere in the U s or a single crime 0:44:16.360 --> 0:44:19.000 carried out by a Satanic cult. That said that they 0:44:19.040 --> 0:44:22.400 found a couple of UM crimes that were carried up 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:25.640 by people allegedly in the name of Satan, but that 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:28.720 these were most likely inspired by the Satanic panic itself 0:44:28.880 --> 0:44:32.520 and solo affairs. That's what Yeah, that's what That's what 0:44:32.560 --> 0:44:35.520 I'm saying, UM. But they had had it was in 0:44:35.560 --> 0:44:38.960 a satanic cult by any means UM. They also found 0:44:39.080 --> 0:44:44.960 in this study that children um of the ages that 0:44:45.080 --> 0:44:48.480 that where they would go to daycare, weren't capable of 0:44:48.880 --> 0:44:54.680 forming the type of accusations against satanic ritual abuse um 0:44:54.760 --> 0:44:57.920 that people have been convicted of. That clearly, the adults 0:44:57.920 --> 0:45:02.040 were the ones who were channeling themselves through their children 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:04.960 to accuse these people. The kids were saying things like 0:45:05.040 --> 0:45:07.680 they locked us in a closet with spiders and snakes. 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:10.960 They weren't saying like they carved open a baby and 0:45:11.160 --> 0:45:14.439 um sexually abused it and then we all drank its 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:18.000 blood while everyone's wearing black ropes. They're they're not sophisticated 0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:19.920 enough to think that kind of thing. So the study 0:45:19.960 --> 0:45:23.400 also proved that too. And then ironically, the same survey 0:45:23.440 --> 0:45:28.600 found plenty of evidence of religious based crimes, including murders 0:45:28.680 --> 0:45:32.640 carried out things like exorcisms that went too far. That 0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:36.560 kind of stuff. They're like, that actually is real, And ironically, 0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.719 we have a lot of laws protecting people who do that, 0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:44.319 but we have laws that step up the punishment for 0:45:44.440 --> 0:45:48.000 satanic abuse even though that doesn't exist. And that one 0:45:48.080 --> 0:45:51.200 really changed the tide of how people saw the Satanic panic. 0:45:51.320 --> 0:45:53.680 Well yeah, and then experts later came out and said 0:45:53.719 --> 0:45:58.040 as far as the uh physical abuse, and the doctors 0:45:58.080 --> 0:46:02.120 who testified at trial, like the type of physical abuse 0:46:02.200 --> 0:46:05.719 these kids were enduring, they were like a layman could 0:46:05.800 --> 0:46:09.480 look at a child and and say, wow, what happened 0:46:09.480 --> 0:46:11.960 to this kid? But you will obviously never be able 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:17.279 to reproduce. Yes, you're totally mangled. Not this like ambiguous like, well, yeah, 0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:20.160 I think that it seems like they had some marks 0:46:20.239 --> 0:46:24.520 where they could have been, you know, molested or something like. 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:27.399 It would have been so obvious because these allegations were 0:46:27.440 --> 0:46:30.239 so far out there And of course years later they 0:46:30.239 --> 0:46:34.200 say this. At the time, everyone was drinking the flavor aid, 0:46:34.760 --> 0:46:39.520 you know, nice, the blood drenched flavor aid and insult 0:46:39.560 --> 0:46:43.040 to injury that same media, all of a sudden, the 0:46:43.040 --> 0:46:46.640 hot story became the outrage that was Satanic panic, and 0:46:46.680 --> 0:46:49.000 what a bunch of crap that it was. So now 0:46:49.080 --> 0:46:51.759 let's cover that story in full, even though we had 0:46:51.760 --> 0:46:54.839 a lot to do with it. Yeah, um, so, Chuck, 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:57.799 why did people drink the flavor aid? Like, what was 0:46:57.880 --> 0:47:03.200 the immediate reason for the satanic panic? Well, you found 0:47:03.200 --> 0:47:06.360 this great article which one I found a lot of 0:47:06.400 --> 0:47:11.959 great articles the three uh Satanic ritual abuse as Oh yeah, 0:47:11.960 --> 0:47:15.520 this sociological article, Yeah, that was good. Um. They have 0:47:15.560 --> 0:47:20.480 a few reasons um as subversion ideology, as rumor panic, 0:47:21.120 --> 0:47:25.080 and as contemporary legend. And the subversion ideology I thought 0:47:25.160 --> 0:47:27.160 was super interesting. I didn't even know what that was. 0:47:27.480 --> 0:47:29.279 I hadn't heard of it before you. They define it 0:47:29.320 --> 0:47:32.400 as a culturally constructed myth that gives shape and formed 0:47:32.480 --> 0:47:35.799 feelings of anxiety and uncertainty about the future that our 0:47:35.880 --> 0:47:40.319 experienced between periods of rapid, unpredictable social change. Right, So 0:47:40.320 --> 0:47:44.200 so we're anxious. We're not even necessarily conscious of our anxiety, 0:47:44.200 --> 0:47:46.759 but we just we don't feel quite right. Everything's changing 0:47:46.760 --> 0:47:48.759 and we don't know what's going on. So what's yeah, 0:47:48.880 --> 0:47:51.680 what what? What exactly is making us nervous? Oh? How 0:47:51.680 --> 0:47:55.319 about that group over there, Satanists? Yeah, basic Jews, and 0:47:55.360 --> 0:47:57.640 before that it was Christians exactly. Now it puts a 0:47:57.719 --> 0:48:01.080 face to to this underlying sense of dread we feel 0:48:01.120 --> 0:48:03.520 because the times are a changeing, exactly, and it gives 0:48:03.560 --> 0:48:06.360 us a um an outlet at the expense of other people. 0:48:06.760 --> 0:48:11.440 But that's the with the subversion ideology. The hallmark. Characteristic 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:15.000 of it is that that that other group takes everything 0:48:15.040 --> 0:48:18.560 we hold dear and values the opposite of it. So 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:23.879 Satanists they use upside down crosses and evil is what's 0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:27.520 really good, and um it was. It's a classic example 0:48:27.520 --> 0:48:30.279 of subverse subversion ideology. Well, and one thing I thought 0:48:30.320 --> 0:48:32.960 was really interesting in here is, um, they contend. And 0:48:33.000 --> 0:48:36.520 I'm sure it's true that subversion ideology actually ends up 0:48:36.520 --> 0:48:40.560 having a stabilizing effect because people then go, oh, okay, 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:43.680 well that's why I'm so upset and worried and anxious 0:48:44.200 --> 0:48:47.160 is because of the Satanist, not what's really going on, 0:48:47.520 --> 0:48:51.200 which is the end of the millennium apparently really yeah whatever. 0:48:51.320 --> 0:48:53.520 That was Another explanation I ran across is that it 0:48:53.600 --> 0:48:58.000 was millennial anxiety. Um. There is also know that another 0:48:58.000 --> 0:49:01.399 one you said, moral or rumor panic, yeah, um, which 0:49:01.640 --> 0:49:04.760 we touched on before. But basically that is this idea 0:49:04.880 --> 0:49:08.160 that um, it's just buying into a rumor and like 0:49:08.239 --> 0:49:10.399 really really buying into it. And the way you buy 0:49:10.400 --> 0:49:13.320 into it is because all of a sudden, um, professional 0:49:13.320 --> 0:49:17.319 psychiatrists and psychologists and law enforcement people and people in 0:49:17.360 --> 0:49:20.600 the newspaper are talking about this stuff like it's fact. 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:23.800 And with that, because we trust these people as being smart, 0:49:23.800 --> 0:49:27.239 intelligent people, it becomes fact in the eyes and the 0:49:27.360 --> 0:49:31.279 minds of just normal people, and that gives it veracity 0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:35.080 in and of itself. Once people start believing something as 0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:39.200 fact without any proof, you are rumor. Panic has just 0:49:39.239 --> 0:49:41.799 set in well, and ironically to them, it seems like 0:49:41.840 --> 0:49:45.400 the more out there the panic is, the more readily 0:49:45.400 --> 0:49:48.239 it's believed, because that the old like who would make 0:49:48.280 --> 0:49:50.920 something like that up right, a three year old might 0:49:51.680 --> 0:49:54.000 being coaxed by police and her parents and her shrink. 0:49:54.680 --> 0:49:56.319 And then the last one is an urban legend, which 0:49:56.320 --> 0:49:59.319 we talked about before, but the sociological article pointed something 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:01.680 out that I hadn't thought out of that, UM. Urban 0:50:01.760 --> 0:50:04.319 legends deal in metaphors, even though we don't think of 0:50:04.360 --> 0:50:07.600 them as metaphors. So in this case, the children that 0:50:07.640 --> 0:50:11.440 were being abused by Satanists were a metaphor for our future, 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:15.080 and children are future. Just go ask Whitney Houston. You 0:50:15.600 --> 0:50:19.400 can't it's true, um. And then as people start to 0:50:19.440 --> 0:50:21.920 buy into it, it becomes a rumor panic and you 0:50:21.920 --> 0:50:25.200 can dress it up with some version ideology. So in 0:50:25.239 --> 0:50:29.319 the end, UH, the mcmartin's I don't think they ever well. 0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:32.040 I think they never prosecuted. I think they were in 0:50:32.120 --> 0:50:34.439 jail here and there while the trial was going on. Yeah, 0:50:34.440 --> 0:50:37.239 but they were never prosecuted, but never successfully prosecuted. The 0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:41.560 Kellers were eventually exonerated, but they spent twenty one years 0:50:41.560 --> 0:50:44.000 in prison. Their life was ruined, twenty one years in 0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:46.800 prison each based on these false accusations. I have to say, 0:50:46.920 --> 0:50:48.840 if you want to read one of the better articles 0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:51.400 I've ever read, it's called The Innocent and the Damned. 0:50:51.400 --> 0:50:56.240 It's from Texas Monthly. Was written while this satanic panic 0:50:56.360 --> 0:50:59.480 is going on, but somehow Texas Monthly took a critical 0:50:59.480 --> 0:51:02.680 eye to this stuff. It's really good article. I thought 0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:05.399 this was so fascinating because as crazy as it seems now, 0:51:06.440 --> 0:51:08.040 and like I was saying at the very beginning, like 0:51:08.080 --> 0:51:10.759 how in the world in the nineteen eighties did we 0:51:10.880 --> 0:51:16.279 buy into this like it was Salem, Massachusetts. Uh, when 0:51:16.280 --> 0:51:18.360 you look at the reasons behind it, it was like 0:51:18.440 --> 0:51:23.400 the perfect storm coalescing. Uh. It sort of makes perfect 0:51:23.440 --> 0:51:25.520 sense when you look at everything behind it. It does, 0:51:25.560 --> 0:51:29.000 but doesn't it also still like, even even even if 0:51:29.040 --> 0:51:31.719 you take into account that you're using hindsight, and that 0:51:31.880 --> 0:51:35.880 the perspective that's afforded by that, the gull ability I know, 0:51:36.160 --> 0:51:39.319 that's it that is involved in a moral panic is 0:51:40.840 --> 0:51:44.520 It's just it's saddening. I bet Edward Burns would have 0:51:44.520 --> 0:51:47.120 been all over this. Oh yeah, well he fomented those 0:51:47.200 --> 0:51:52.839 kind of things, you know, Um, yeah, yeah, it's sad. Also, 0:51:52.920 --> 0:51:55.880 if you want some yucks, go look up Law Enforcement 0:51:55.880 --> 0:51:59.760 Guide to Satanic Cults on YouTube hit the video series 0:52:00.880 --> 0:52:02.880 Yeah so weird. I'm glad to know that you had 0:52:02.920 --> 0:52:05.600 a Satan house in your neighborhood too. I think everybody 0:52:05.600 --> 0:52:07.880 did a rumors that, like somebody found a cat with 0:52:07.920 --> 0:52:09.960 its head cut off in a panagram and he's like, oh, 0:52:10.000 --> 0:52:13.359 that happened because I'm ten, which is okay if you're ten, 0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:16.560 but if you're fifty, it's not okay, especially if you're 0:52:16.560 --> 0:52:20.719 the local prosecutor. Uh. And it also one last thing, chuck, 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:22.839 It makes you wonder what moral panics are we working 0:52:22.880 --> 0:52:25.840 on right now. It's not like this is ancient history. 0:52:26.320 --> 0:52:28.880 You know. If you want to know more about moral 0:52:28.920 --> 0:52:31.759 panics and specifically the Satanic panic, you can type those 0:52:31.800 --> 0:52:34.040 words into the search bart how stuff works dot com 0:52:34.600 --> 0:52:36.799 so I said, search parts time for a listener and mail. 0:52:39.480 --> 0:52:41.319 Here's what I predict is that some people are going 0:52:41.360 --> 0:52:44.680 to write in and say, dudes, we're in the middle 0:52:44.719 --> 0:52:47.520 of another moral panic right now and it is blank 0:52:47.760 --> 0:52:52.200 vocal fry. Perhaps some lady called me the fry Master 0:52:52.280 --> 0:52:55.240 and an email. Do you see that? No? I didn't. 0:52:55.520 --> 0:52:57.839 She was like, Chuck always uses vocal fry, and then 0:52:57.880 --> 0:52:59.640 when I listened to my voice, I'm like, I totally do, 0:53:00.200 --> 0:53:04.080 but uh, he totally. I've noticed it a lot more 0:53:04.120 --> 0:53:09.640 since we um uh said that you do that episode? Yeah, yeah, whatever, 0:53:09.920 --> 0:53:12.320 being me, Yeah, man, you should. I'm a trend setter. 0:53:13.760 --> 0:53:17.719 I'm gonna call this. Um oh, guys sitting a straight 0:53:17.760 --> 0:53:21.319 on these grocery store donations. Okay, hey guys, a long 0:53:21.360 --> 0:53:24.879 time listener. Love you guys. Never thought, uh, this would 0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:26.239 be the reason I have to reach out to you. 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:30.239 At the end of the podcast on Tuesday, um you said, 0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:33.120 I don't know which podcast it was. At the end 0:53:33.120 --> 0:53:36.359 of the recent podcast, actually had to stop and say 0:53:36.400 --> 0:53:39.239 no because my friends Josh and Chuck didn't just do that. 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:42.720 I told people not to donate a dollar to buy 0:53:42.960 --> 0:53:46.360 the little hot air balloons at the grocery store because 0:53:46.360 --> 0:53:49.320 the company then uses those donations to get text credit. 0:53:49.480 --> 0:53:52.040 This is absolutely not true. That is not true what 0:53:52.040 --> 0:53:55.600 that guy said. He says, I have actually been working 0:53:55.640 --> 0:53:59.760 with Children's Miracle Network hospitals in Connecticut for about twenty years. 0:53:59.800 --> 0:54:01.680 And by the way, when I said the balloons, I 0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:05.279 forgot that was Children's Miracle Network specifically. I used to 0:54:05.280 --> 0:54:06.920 do a lot of work with them in l a 0:54:08.120 --> 0:54:11.200 them on video shoots. No, of course not. It's they're amazing. 0:54:11.719 --> 0:54:13.960 You're like, it's the shamrocks. I have a problem. I know. 0:54:14.000 --> 0:54:16.919 It just felt terrible after that. So um, he says, 0:54:16.960 --> 0:54:19.760 our corporate partners do not get text credits for donations 0:54:19.760 --> 0:54:22.320 made by their customers. In fact, many of our corporate 0:54:22.320 --> 0:54:26.120 partners ring these donations through their registers, so the donation 0:54:26.160 --> 0:54:29.120 shows on the customer's receipt, allowing them to use that 0:54:29.160 --> 0:54:32.440 for their taxes. What a quick fun fact about the 0:54:32.520 --> 0:54:35.920 miracle balloon um that I reference is that the first 0:54:35.920 --> 0:54:38.839 one ever sold the entire world was at a small 0:54:38.880 --> 0:54:43.520 diner in downtown Middletown, Connecticut to roy Comb in nineteen 0:54:45.680 --> 0:54:49.640 I thought he's gonna say like nineteen not four. Uh. 0:54:49.680 --> 0:54:52.360 Soon after that um. The Miracle Balloon became a multinational 0:54:52.400 --> 0:54:55.239 program that raises money for more than one seventy local 0:54:55.280 --> 0:54:58.960 children's hospitals across the US in Canada, and its creator 0:54:59.000 --> 0:55:03.000 became very, very rich. As I mentioned, I've been doing 0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:04.440 this job for about twenty years, and I have to 0:55:04.440 --> 0:55:07.319 tell uh that I always say I have the best 0:55:07.400 --> 0:55:09.280 job in the world. I get to work with amazing 0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:11.360 people like my co workers and all of our partners, 0:55:11.400 --> 0:55:14.120 and I get to work for the most inspiring people 0:55:14.200 --> 0:55:17.360 are patient families. Please help me get this corrected. The 0:55:17.400 --> 0:55:20.520 stuff you should know, legion, don't worry. I still love you, guys. 0:55:20.520 --> 0:55:24.840 That is from Scott uh organ Eck, the director of 0:55:25.000 --> 0:55:29.000 Children's Miracle Network Hospitals. Wow from the horse's mouth or 0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:32.840 a director? Yeah, so I don't. We're gonna have to 0:55:32.880 --> 0:55:34.560 look in this a little further. I think we got 0:55:34.640 --> 0:55:37.640 other people that said that's not true, and other people 0:55:37.680 --> 0:55:40.279 said it is true for Children's Miracle Network. I'm sure 0:55:40.280 --> 0:55:42.239 he knows what he's talking about, but there are all 0:55:42.320 --> 0:55:44.279 kinds of things that done it too, And it's also 0:55:44.320 --> 0:55:47.080 probably not a liar. I don't know. He seems like 0:55:47.080 --> 0:55:52.040 a regular guy, not a Satanic ritual abuser. No, not 0:55:52.120 --> 0:55:55.680 at all in any way, So we'll look into it. 0:55:55.719 --> 0:55:58.239 I certainly did not mean to disparage the no I 0:55:58.280 --> 0:56:00.520 did there, and I mean, if that's the way it works, 0:56:00.719 --> 0:56:02.840 I retract that, but I need to look into it 0:56:02.880 --> 0:56:05.520 a little more first, all right, the jury's out. Um, 0:56:05.520 --> 0:56:08.120 thank you very much. What was his name? David? David, 0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:10.279 You're awesome. Thank you for the work you're doing too. 0:56:10.640 --> 0:56:11.960 If you want to get in touch with us to 0:56:12.000 --> 0:56:14.640 set us straight, we love that. You can tweet to 0:56:14.719 --> 0:56:17.359 us at s y s K podcast. 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