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Speaker 1: Hello everyone. It is Saturday, and that means it's time

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Speaker 1: for a Saturday Stuff you Should Know select episode. As

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Speaker 1: you know, Josh and I curate these each week. We

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Speaker 1: take turns going back through the archives and picking out

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Speaker 1: some of our favorite episodes. And boy, oh boy, that

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Speaker 1: I love this one from January two, sixteen, the Satanic

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Speaker 1: Panic of the nineteen eighties. We lived through it, we

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Speaker 1: talked about it. It's pretty amazing stuff. Check it out

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Speaker 1: right now. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production

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Speaker 1: of our Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's Charlot to be Chuck Bryant,

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Speaker 1: uh and this is stuff you should ail. Satan Man

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Speaker 1: that would have gotten you locked up a New years ago. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I want to go ahead and say that I

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Speaker 1: would like to do one on Satanism. Yeah, for sure,

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Speaker 1: the religion misunderstood may include the Church of Satan or

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Speaker 1: maybe those are two separates. Uh um. And the PMRC

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Speaker 1: is that the TIPPERD Core organizes. Yeah, I just this.

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Speaker 1: This brought back a lot of memories because we lived

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Speaker 1: through the Satanic Bannock for sure, and I remember it

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Speaker 1: very distinctly, like, oh, I can imagine young Baptist, I

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Speaker 1: was afraid. I can imagine I was very scared. Um.

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Speaker 1: I remember like growing up thinking, you know, some of

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Speaker 1: the big kids are sacrificing things in the woods. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, Um, which is I mean like that was

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Speaker 1: just part of your normal, everyday thing, like walking around

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Speaker 1: thinking that was happening. But um, it turns out in

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Speaker 1: retrospect it was all almost entirely made up. Yeah. There

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Speaker 1: was also and imagine every neighborhood or town had this

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Speaker 1: with THEO was off Memorial Drive. That was Satan house

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Speaker 1: where supposedly devil worshipers. Yes, yeah, yeah, did you have

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Speaker 1: one in your town? Yeah? Yeah, It's so funny to

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Speaker 1: me to think about that now. They were probably just nice,

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Speaker 1: normal people. It's probably some old, uh shut ins, some

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Speaker 1: old folks, elderly folks who just couldn't get out of

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Speaker 1: the house much, all right. They murdered anybody for years.

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Speaker 1: You ever noticed you never see anyone. Yeah, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of old, kind of dilapidated or run down because they're old. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And we want to issue a big c a here, parents,

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Speaker 1: This is got some pretty grizzly stuff in it. You

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Speaker 1: probably don't want your kids listening to this, even though

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Speaker 1: it was all made up. Uh yeah, but there's some

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Speaker 1: detail in some of this that's I found myself even going, oh,

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Speaker 1: we have to say that. So yeah, just it's rated,

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Speaker 1: are maybe even X for content? I'm thinking, Chuck, we

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Speaker 1: should put together the times America lost its mind? Sweet Yeah,

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Speaker 1: include this UM dissociative identity disorder, UM deep programming, could

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Speaker 1: deep program Salem Witchcraft trials. Mccarthier him, McCarthy ism. That's right.

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Speaker 1: We're going to do it one of these days, will

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Speaker 1: actually put some of these sweets together. Yeah, he mente right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: thanks man for letting off the hook. Um. But I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you guys have picked up on it

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Speaker 1: or not, but I keep saying like that never really existed.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't actually true, It wasn't real. This whole idea

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about from the roughly the mid eighties

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Speaker 1: till about the mid nineties, about a ten year period,

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Speaker 1: America as a whole was gripped by again, there's no

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Speaker 1: other way to put it, Satanic panic. This idea that

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Speaker 1: there were cults of Satan worshippers who were very widespread,

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Speaker 1: more than you would think who were abducting, killing, raping,

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Speaker 1: molesting our children, mutilating animals, and who had been doing

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Speaker 1: it for a very long time in America was just

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Speaker 1: now waking up to this reality. It's your teachers, it's

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Speaker 1: the cops, even the mayor of your town. There's a

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Speaker 1: battle between good and evil very much going on right now,

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Speaker 1: and somehow, some way, and people are still studying this.

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Speaker 1: Um America clomped onto this idea and ran with it

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Speaker 1: like it was for real. The idea that they were murderous,

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Speaker 1: child molesting satanic cults operating almost openly in the United

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Speaker 1: States was a very deep and widespread belief, not just

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Speaker 1: among religious people, although they were at the forefront of

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Speaker 1: this um, but among people who were writing academic papers

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Speaker 1: and creating television shows and the news. Um. It was

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Speaker 1: people in the courts were subscribed to this. It was

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Speaker 1: just it was a it was what's called a moral panic. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And when I was reading this, even I lived through it,

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Speaker 1: I kept thinking, how in the world did this happen

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Speaker 1: in the nineteen eighties. Nineteen eighties, not the sixteen forties, right,

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Speaker 1: not hundreds Uh. And it turns out there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of reasons why and we gotta go back in time

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Speaker 1: a little bit to touch on the early reasons you

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Speaker 1: gotta go back in time. So this was that's a

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Speaker 1: vur Way Back Machine theme song. That was just too

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Speaker 1: darn loud. What I was continuing with the back of

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Speaker 1: the Future references, what was too darn loud. Remember Huey

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Speaker 1: Lewis when he auditioned, he said, I'm sorry, that's just right,

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Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for that. Uh. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: this is not just the United States. Apparently it was

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Speaker 1: in the UK, Australia, Canada, South Africa, and South Africa

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Speaker 1: still has a cult crimes division. Yeah, I believe it.

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Speaker 1: So um. Robert Lamb wrote this article of stuff to

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Speaker 1: blow your mind. Uh. And we're gonna be drawing from

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Speaker 1: other articles as well, which will name drop along the way.

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Speaker 1: I guess one from Slate that was good. Boom, there's

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Speaker 1: some name dropping. I've got one for you. I'll hit

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Speaker 1: it up later. So part of the groundwork was laid

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Speaker 1: for this in ancient history. Uh. And Robert does a

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Speaker 1: good job in pointing out that there is long, especially

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Speaker 1: when it comes to Christian theology. Long been a divide

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Speaker 1: between us and them. Heaven and hell, two sides, good

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Speaker 1: and evil, good and evil, light and dark. I was

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Speaker 1: going to repeat that too. What else, Uh, Yin and

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Speaker 1: Yang Ye's super Christian? No, actually that I think Yin

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Speaker 1: and Yang worked together, right, Sure, yeah, we should do

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Speaker 1: one on Yin Yang. But a lot of people, Um,

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Speaker 1: it's not just Christians, chuck, there's humans subscribe to it

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Speaker 1: in group out group mentality. Yeah. Absolutely, Like I took

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Speaker 1: an anthropology class once and the professor was like, try

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Speaker 1: to go a day without using words like us, them,

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Speaker 1: We yeah, they, It's impossible, virtually impossible. Politics. That's just

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Speaker 1: the way our minds go in group out group And

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Speaker 1: our group is safe and good. Their group is potentially

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Speaker 1: threatening and possibly bad. We don't know. Absolutely. So throughout

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Speaker 1: history this has come up again and again and again,

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Speaker 1: and innocent people have been persecuted for doing nothing at all.

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Speaker 1: One good example are the Jewish people. Um. Christians accused

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Speaker 1: Jews in fourteen seventy five of using blood for kidnapped

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Speaker 1: Christian children and rituals, which is pretty ironic because the

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Speaker 1: Romans just a few hundred years before had accused the

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Speaker 1: Christians of bathing and dining and feasting on baby's blood.

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Speaker 1: Us and them once again, baby's blood it's to go

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Speaker 1: to thing for vilifying an out group. Oh yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you'll see baby's blood in a lot of these cases

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Speaker 1: because that's I guess, the hardest blood to get ahold of.

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Speaker 1: It's expensive blood and the most grizzly witchcraft everyone. Of

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Speaker 1: course we did we do one on the Salem witch

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Speaker 1: trials or just McCarthy ism. We did one, I believe. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: let's say we have, and if we haven't, we will

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Speaker 1: like remember on like them being high on air. Goot, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we did something like that. Okay, alright, So fifteenth century

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Speaker 1: you had witchcraft persecutions all over Europe, innocent women being killed, drowned, burned,

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Speaker 1: you name it. Um. And of course none of this

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Speaker 1: was true in all cases. Uh. When it comes to art,

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Speaker 1: they laid the groundwork. And the nineteenth century, the French

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Speaker 1: Romantic artist loved painting stuff about Satan and witchcraft and uh.

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Speaker 1: By the nineteen twenties in the West, we had a

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Speaker 1: pretty firm established groundwork for believing in things like demons

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Speaker 1: and Satan and a fiery hell. Uh and people who

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Speaker 1: who worshiped this Satan yeah, and a this the weird

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Speaker 1: thing is Chuck, is there's this still to this day,

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Speaker 1: there's this idea that at some point back in antiquity

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Speaker 1: at least, there were devil worshippers who like killed for Satan,

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Speaker 1: and all of this was born out of whole cloth,

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Speaker 1: fabricated from people who are doing the religious persecution along

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Speaker 1: the way and the people who are being tortured to

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Speaker 1: confess into this kind of stuff. It was all just fabricated.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that it was old, the fact that

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Speaker 1: it was sensational, and the fact that it had been

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Speaker 1: repeated so many times it gained traction to become this,

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Speaker 1: to gain this idea that it is historical fact. At

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Speaker 1: some point people just take it as fact. But it's

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Speaker 1: not true. No, it's not true. It's never been satanic

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Speaker 1: Satanic death cults in the United States or anywhere else. Right,

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Speaker 1: these people have never existed. Now that is not to

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Speaker 1: say that people haven't killed in the name of Satan

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Speaker 1: or anything like that, but there's never been any kind

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Speaker 1: of Satanic death cult ever in the His tree of

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Speaker 1: the world as far as we can ever tell. It's

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Speaker 1: all made up, right, And we want to go further

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Speaker 1: by saying that these people who have killed in the

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Speaker 1: name of Satan are actually an example of life imitating art.

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Speaker 1: They're inspired by the the fictitious myth because they're gullible

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Speaker 1: and buy into it just as much as the people

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Speaker 1: who think that this stuff is out there too, Like

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Speaker 1: Richard Ramirez, Sure, and he was driven by Satan or

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Speaker 1: something like that. There was a girl in the eighties

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Speaker 1: in Georgia who supposedly killed a friend, um and then

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Speaker 1: performed a Satanic Ritchell. It's like this stuff did happen,

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Speaker 1: but it happened as a result of the Hysteria movie.

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Speaker 1: It is a positive feedback absolutely. Uh So, now we're

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Speaker 1: in the twentieth century and the roots of Satanic panic

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Speaker 1: can be found all throughout the entertainment industry. Books. There

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Speaker 1: was one in ninety seven by Herbert Gorman called The

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Speaker 1: Place called Dagon, which was very influential and radical at

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Speaker 1: the time. Uh. Complete fiction, of course, but that doesn't, um,

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Speaker 1: doesn't stop it from establishing firmer roots that this could

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Speaker 1: be a thing. Right, That's something that kind of keeps

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Speaker 1: coming up again and again. Um. A movie or a

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Speaker 1: work of fiction will establish some storyline, and then somebody

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Speaker 1: will have read it and told a friend about it

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Speaker 1: or something like that, and then it becomes a game

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Speaker 1: of telephone along the way, somebody stopped saying I read

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Speaker 1: in this work of fiction or I saw in this

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Speaker 1: movie this happened. Instead it becomes this happened to a

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Speaker 1: friend of mine's sister. Yeah, which we'll get to. Urban

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Speaker 1: legend is one theory, of course. Uh, and I know

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Speaker 1: we did a podcast on that. Uh. A couple of

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Speaker 1: movies came out, One horror film called The Devil Rides

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Speaker 1: Out with the Great Christopher Lee because he was in

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Speaker 1: every weird movie. He was great man, he was the

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Speaker 1: tall man and fantasm Right now, who's that then? Because

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Speaker 1: really was sure? Was he? Oh no, that's angus somebody,

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Speaker 1: You're right? Christopher Lee was the from like the Wicker Man,

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Speaker 1: and I mean dozens and dozens of horror movies. Play

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Speaker 1: Dracula a lot. Rosemary's Baby also came out that year,

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Speaker 1: which was way more mainstream, big, big hit, great movie.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, really good. Still very creepy movie with Mia

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Speaker 1: Farrow and Cassavettis and Charles CrowdIn. Weirdly, I guess it's

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Speaker 1: not weird, but I dis associate him with comedy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but he always plays a straight man, so he could

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Speaker 1: go back and forth. Yeah, he could could straddle worlds.

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Speaker 1: So those movies were were huge as far as planning,

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Speaker 1: and you know of course other things like The Omen

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Speaker 1: and The Exorcist, and it was just it was just

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Speaker 1: a big time for talking about Satan and movies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's very popular. What's interesting is you can trace it

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Speaker 1: back to and initially that um book the place called

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Speaker 1: Dagon which inspired HP Lovecraft. Yeah that started at all.

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Speaker 1: Basically Uh, music of course, which if we ever do

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Speaker 1: one on the PMRC will get to that, and backmasking

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Speaker 1: more heavily. But uh, satanic imagery and everything from like

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Speaker 1: Iron Maiden to King Diamond and Judas. Remember they got

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Speaker 1: hauled in the court for back masking man people I know.

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Speaker 1: And h then you have some real life things, real

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Speaker 1: life occult like Alistair Crowley and Anton LaVey who really

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Speaker 1: didn't help quell satanic panic fearce if anything that helps

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Speaker 1: set the stage. Now, dressing up like with candles and

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Speaker 1: and being naked with like cloaks and pentagrams isn't gonna

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Speaker 1: make people feel any better, but that's what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: And if you will, like I said, we'll do on Satanism.

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Speaker 1: If you look at Satanism, it's it's not let's sacrifice

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Speaker 1: animals and throw blood on each other. It's more like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we're on this earth for a short time, let's party

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Speaker 1: and just live for ourselves. It's more about hedonism and

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Speaker 1: being atheist than some weird dark occult Alistair Crowley was darker,

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Speaker 1: more sure, and Anton LaVey definitely dressed his brand of

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Speaker 1: Satanism up in that kind of like dark theatrics. But

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Speaker 1: the really ironic thing about both of those guys the

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Speaker 1: cult stuff, is that, again it was life imitating art

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Speaker 1: or life imitating fiction. Their ideas of the black mask

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Speaker 1: or the witches Sabbath or wearing pentagrams, all that stuff

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Speaker 1: came out of those witch persecutions from before they were

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Speaker 1: fabricated from a whole cloth. So these guys were tapping

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Speaker 1: into what was already part of the popular culture in

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Speaker 1: the in the way of what people thought of Satanism

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Speaker 1: and Satanic rituals. And we're just basically playing it up

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Speaker 1: to the ante very much so. But two people who

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Speaker 1: are scared to death of the idea that Satan is

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Speaker 1: real and his worshippers are here on earth and are

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Speaker 1: ready to kill you. Those guys scared those people and

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Speaker 1: just proved that this is very real. See look at

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Speaker 1: those two Anton LaVey Alistair Crowley proved of that they're

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Speaker 1: satanic cults exactly. And who knows what's going on behind

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Speaker 1: that big, huge iron wooden door. All right, well, let's

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Speaker 1: take a break here and we're gonna come back and

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the nineteen seventies um stranger

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Speaker 1: danger panic which factors in story. All Right, it's the

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Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, and all of a sudden, all you can

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Speaker 1: hear about on the news is our stories about child pornography, rings, murders,

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Speaker 1: child murders, kidnappings, uh, crimes involving children in general, and

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Speaker 1: not just that Chuck. Like at that time, America was

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Speaker 1: really waking up to the um to just how widespread

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Speaker 1: child abuse was the ninety and seventies, which is great, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really was, because apparently it took just a couple

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Speaker 1: of doctors to really stand up and be like, I'm

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Speaker 1: not looking the other way again on these unexplained breaks

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Speaker 1: to a child's arm. Um, it's the it's the parents.

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Speaker 1: You're you're breaking your kid's arms, it's abuse. That's wrong.

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Speaker 1: Stopped doing that, and as a result, the government stood

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Speaker 1: up and was like, Okay, we need some laws here.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that they enacted were mandatory reporting laws.

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Speaker 1: If you're a doctor and you notice signs of child abuse,

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Speaker 1: you have to report it. And as a result, in

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Speaker 1: ninety four, child abuse cases went from sixty thousand nationwide

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Speaker 1: to the year two thousand there were three million reported. Right,

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Speaker 1: And it was because of public education, a lot more

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Speaker 1: visibility um and then mandatory reporting laws. But it had

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Speaker 1: this cumulative effect of saying, America, your children are being

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Speaker 1: they're in danger, and you need to do something about it.

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Speaker 1: And this child protection movement grew out of it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I also get the sense that pre the late seventies,

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Speaker 1: I think the media it was unsavory to report on

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Speaker 1: this kind of stuff, like that's that's that family's business. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just period, it's like, no one wants to hear

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Speaker 1: about this stuff. It's awful. Uh. And somehow it got

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Speaker 1: transferred to probably to drive ratings like this is sensational,

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Speaker 1: is what it is. Yeah, anytime America is scared, all

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Speaker 1: you have to do is poke and product and you

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Speaker 1: will get people to watch your TV show. That's right,

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Speaker 1: and it's done very frequently. It's sad and despicable, but

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Speaker 1: it happens a lot. It still does. There's another aspect

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Speaker 1: to this too, Chuck Um with the with the child

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Speaker 1: protection idea. UM. This is also a time the seventies especially,

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Speaker 1: is when it when women started to go back to

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Speaker 1: work after they had kids. Before they may work, and

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Speaker 1: then they would have kids and that was it for

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Speaker 1: their professional career. They would just stay home. There were

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Speaker 1: moms for the rest of their time if they ever

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Speaker 1: worked at all. Originally right now, in the seventies and

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Speaker 1: the eighties, women were having kids going back to work,

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Speaker 1: and as a result, they were having to leave their

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Speaker 1: kids in more and more daycare workers care, and so

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Speaker 1: this idea that their children were being abused or potentially

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Speaker 1: abused really resonated with families where their kids are in

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Speaker 1: daycare and weren't like constantly under their supervision all the time.

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Speaker 1: How well do you know the people watching your kids?

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Speaker 1: How much do you trust them? Are they Satanists? And

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Speaker 1: this this fear took root because of that um collective

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Speaker 1: anxiety at the time, with more and more families putting

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Speaker 1: their kids in daycare, right or they're just latchkey kids

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Speaker 1: a little older who remember during the Atlanta child murders,

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Speaker 1: do you know where your children aren't to where your

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Speaker 1: children are? It was just a time of in a

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Speaker 1: good way, people were more aware of uh than ever

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Speaker 1: of potential dangers for their children. So it's not like

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00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,600
Speaker 1: it was all bad. But when it goes into panic

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Speaker 1: and well, we'll just see what happened. Yeah, I went

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Speaker 1: from like zero to one twenty and just a couple

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Speaker 1: of second basically. So what happened was during the Satanic

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Speaker 1: panic U Largely it is based around um court cases

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Speaker 1: where largely daycare centers and people who cared for children

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Speaker 1: were now being accused of some of the craziest things

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Speaker 1: you could ever imagine in your entire life. And like

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Speaker 1: you said, one of the reasons this was fueled was

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Speaker 1: very much because parents could relate to it. Uh. I mean,

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Speaker 1: should we go ahead and talk about a couple of

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Speaker 1: these cases. Yeah, um, you know, the whole thing sounds

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Speaker 1: crazy and weird and everything, but just innocuous, I guess

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Speaker 1: until you come across the court cases and then you're like, oh, real,

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Speaker 1: people lost decades of their lives, because of this, because

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Speaker 1: gulibal people were in position of power and lock them up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: all right, let's talk about the killers. What was the

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Speaker 1: actual This is one in Texas. Yeah, in Austin and Austin, Texas. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Frances and Dan Keller ran a daycare center out of

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Speaker 1: their home and were accused of the following things, among others,

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Speaker 1: drowning and dismembering babies in front of other children, killing animals,

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Speaker 1: dogs and cats in front of children. And baby tigers,

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Speaker 1: baby tigers, that's right. Uh, taking the kids to Mexico

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Speaker 1: to be abused sexually by Mexican army soldiers and then

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Speaker 1: brought back in time for their parents to pick them up.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Uh, dressing his pumpkins, this is my favorite.

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Speaker 1: And shooting children in the arms and legs, Putting children

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Speaker 1: into a pool with sharks that eight babies, putting blood

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Speaker 1: in their kool aid, forcing children to carry the bones

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00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:50,240
Speaker 1: of of bodies that they had dug up. And this

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00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 1: is just a few. And I'm getting most of this

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00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,119
Speaker 1: from this great Slate article, The Real Victims of Satanic

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Speaker 1: Ritual Abuse s r A by Linda Rodriguez McRobie. So

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00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:04,639
Speaker 1: the colors were accused of all this stuff. UM. And

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Speaker 1: here's generally what happens. Robert points out a lot of

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00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 1: times it starts with one, UM, perhaps credible case of

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00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 1: child abuse, yeah, sexual or otherwise, And then that's snowballs.

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Speaker 1: They tell the parents, maybe this is going on. So

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Speaker 1: they tell the parents, uh, hey, that your child may

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00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 1: being may be abused. The parents start looking, They start

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Speaker 1: talking to other parents in that same daycare center. They

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00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: start looking, they start asking their kids, and at all

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00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 1: snowballs into these little preschoolers, basically making stuff up. And

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00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 1: not only that, it's like, yeah, yeah, I've heard about that,

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Speaker 1: not just abused, Like it's some Satanists that are like

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Speaker 1: molesting children and murdering them. And the parents are like

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00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,600
Speaker 1: what or that plays into something they'd already heard on

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Speaker 1: on TV, which we'll talk about the media's role in this. UM.

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Speaker 1: And like you said, it's snowballs and snowballs and all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, um, once concerned parents get involved, um

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00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:06,080
Speaker 1: and start talking to one another. Panicked concerned parents eat Um.

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Speaker 1: Then people can end up falsely accused of some pretty

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00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,120
Speaker 1: horrendous stuff. People stopped thinking critically, and UM, you've got

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00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 1: problems if you're on the receiving end of finger being

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00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:19,640
Speaker 1: pointed at you. Well, yeah, because if you're a parent,

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00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: your child goes to this daycare center, another parent and

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Speaker 1: the cops come and say, hey, this parents kid was

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Speaker 1: sexually abused. What parents going to be like, Oh, I'm

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00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,199
Speaker 1: sure it's fine, you're fine, quick complaining, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to check out my kids. Take a salt tablet um.

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00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 1: So so with with with the McMartin case, which happened

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00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: in um southern California. Yeah, and and actually UM ended

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00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: up helping turn the tide against this. But the McMartin

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Speaker 1: case and then the Keller case in Texas, both of

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00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: those were bolstered actually by bad medical testimony by inexperienced

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Speaker 1: doctors who didn't know what they were looking at, who,

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00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,159
Speaker 1: in their defense a little bit um was the at

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Speaker 1: the time, no one knew no one was looking at

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00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,760
Speaker 1: little kids like three year olds of vaginas in describing

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00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: what normal ones looked like. So since you didn't know

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00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: what to look for, but I thought you were looking

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00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:22,520
Speaker 1: for evidence of sexual abuse, anything could conceivably look like,

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00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: evidence of say, um vaginal trauma or something like that.

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00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: And in the case of the Kellers, in particular, UM,

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00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,879
Speaker 1: the little girl who was basically, I guess um accuser

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00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: zero of this um it was, was examined and found

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00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 1: that um her vagina showed some evidence of trauma. Later on,

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00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 1: the doctor, after gaining decades of experience, saw that, No,

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00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,680
Speaker 1: that was totally normal what I saw and is not

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00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: the it's I basically gave false testimony unwittingly, and I'm sorry.

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00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: And that was a huge thing because these people were

387
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: sucked away because of medical testimony. And again, the case

388
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 1: against the mcmartin's was also bolstered by bad medical advice

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00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 1: as well or bad medical testimony. Yeah. So with the

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00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: killer case, Uh, the patient or not patient victim zero,

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00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: Christie Cheviers Chevier, I don't know how you would say.

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00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:20,639
Speaker 1: She was three years old, didn't go to the daycare

393
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: center much, uh, and told her mom that dan Keller

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00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,160
Speaker 1: had spanked her. That's what started this whole thing. So

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00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,359
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the mom says, uh, and here's

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00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 1: a key fact, you're the mom goes to her therapist. H. Yeah,

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00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: Donna David Campbell, who the little girl was seeing because

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00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: she had been acting out. She's like a central figure

399
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: in this whole thing. This whole who the doctor. Yeah,

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00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 1: so they go to her and say, listen, something's going

401
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: on here. Can you talk to her about it? And

402
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, uh, Donna Campbell, Donna David Campbell

403
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: starts coaxing out all the is really bizarre allegations about

404
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: what's going on there. Uh. They made us take off

405
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 1: our clothes and had a parrot peck us on the pep.

406
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 1: That was one that was the earliest accusation that that

407
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 1: formed the foundation of this whole case, the basis of

408
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: the snowball. Yes, so this is this is this is

409
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,160
Speaker 1: what begins the snowball. This is when the mom goes

410
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 1: to the other parents like you hear, what's going on here,

411
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: look at what's happened to my daughter? And what's really

412
00:25:28,240 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: happening here is something called uh. It was part of

413
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 1: the recovered therapy recovered memory therapy movement, which was very

414
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 1: big at the time in psychology. Basically the idea that

415
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,440
Speaker 1: we have these repressed memories um that of abuse. Many

416
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,800
Speaker 1: people do that they have no idea of and it's

417
00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:50,400
Speaker 1: up to the therapist to bring these out of us. Yeah.

418
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 1: That's almost like a separate, intertwined thread to this whole

419
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 1: Satanic Panic thing. The Satanic ritual abuse is the recovered

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00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 1: memory therapy movement, right, and um was the Satanic Panic

421
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: can actually trace its roots directly to a book from

422
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two by a guy named Mike warren Key.

423
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: He was a Christian stand up comedian. He also was

424
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 1: totally full of it. He wrote a book called The

425
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,959
Speaker 1: Satan Seller where he talked about his life as a

426
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: former Satanic cult priest, I believe, and drug dealer. And

427
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: he was eventually exposed far too late by the Christian

428
00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: magazine Cornerstone as almost entirely fraudulent and made up in

429
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: just a liar, But his book just sold like wildfire

430
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: through the Christian fundamentalist community and basically really established the

431
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,960
Speaker 1: groundwork for the idea that they were Satanic cults operating

432
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 1: in the United States. Right. For for the thread of

433
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: the Recovered Memory um movement that formed part of the

434
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: Satanic Panic, you can trace that back to a book

435
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: from nineteen eighty called I Think Michelle Remembers Yeah Night.

436
00:26:56,440 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: And this was, by the way, I was on the

437
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 1: cover of a Christian magazine in the nineteen eighties, Cornerstone Magazine.

438
00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: I thought it was, but it wasn't Guide Posts. I

439
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: heard of that. That's a that's a big time Christian magazine. Man,

440
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: that's a cover boy one, what nice? What were you

441
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: doing on the cover? I was. I was at a

442
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: church camp one summer and that was just like it

443
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: was like a four panel cover of just kids having

444
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: fun at church camp and I was one of them.

445
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 1: The May eighty two issue. Man, I hope. I wish

446
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: I could track that thing down. They'd be great. You

447
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: if anyone out there has the issue of Chuck on

448
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:33,679
Speaker 1: the cover of guide Post magazine from do you remember

449
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: the year roughly? Uh, it would have been um probably

450
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: between nineteen eighty five and nineteen eight seven. Okay, we

451
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: need that everyone. I wanted to post that that cover.

452
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: That would be awesome. So this book, Michelle remembers, it

453
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 1: was a it was just like dropping a bomb in

454
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: the midst of this everybody. So everyone was transitioning from

455
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: who can we start pointing at and persecuting now that

456
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: we've decided the colts are okay and we're gonna stop

457
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: deprogramming them, who can we do? What can we do next?

458
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: And this book comes in the midst of that. In

459
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty and it's a book about a woman named

460
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 1: Michelle and her therapist Lawrence passed her. Yeah, he wrote

461
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: it and he he was he helped her uncover repressed

462
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: memories of being ritually satanically abused or Satanic ritually abused

463
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties in Vancouver. Yeah, he actually ended

464
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 1: up marrying her, and he coined the term ritual abuse.

465
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: That lies directly at his feet. And Uh, this thing

466
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 1: had a lot of attraction. I mean, this lady was

467
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,720
Speaker 1: on Oprah, she did the talk show circuit for years.

468
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: The guy was used as as an expert witness in

469
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 1: court cases like he's. He founded a whole movement in psychology.

470
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,640
Speaker 1: It was completely debunked. Yeah, and the whole idea is

471
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: it's based on this premise that if you undergo a

472
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,920
Speaker 1: traumatic experience, your mind is going to try to repress

473
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: that memory, but it's gonna have all sorts of horrible

474
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: effects in your life. You're gonna be an alcoholic and

475
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: a drug addict and maybe a child abuser and you

476
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: won't know why, but it's because you were abused as

477
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: a child, probably by Satanists, and you covered it up.

478
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 1: And you need to go to therapy to have it unlocked,

479
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: And a lot of people went to therapy and had

480
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 1: these memories unlocked, which only proved Pastor's point even further. Right,

481
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 1: the problem is is if when they were re examined,

482
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: they were pseudo memories. Through the power of suggestion and

483
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:33,240
Speaker 1: over zealous UM therapists, a lot of people form memories

484
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: of stuff that never happened. Yeah, the problem is recovered

485
00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 1: memory therapy. There's little to no scientific evidence that it's

486
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 1: a thing at all that people unconsciously repressed these memories. Um.

487
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: The Royal College of Psychiatrists in Britain, Uh, they have

488
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: officially banned its members from using it altogether. The British

489
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: Psychological Society says, you can use it, but you can't

490
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: draw any prem sure conclusions. You have to have evidence,

491
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 1: not just well this is what they said in therapy. Right,

492
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 1: So that's a repressed memory that came to the surface. Right.

493
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 1: And the A M A. I'm sorry, the A p

494
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: A and the United States, Uh, their official stance was

495
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: issued nineteen eighty I'm sorry. N Uh. There's a consensus

496
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: among memory researches and clinicians that most people who are

497
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: sexually abused as children remember all or part of what

498
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 1: happened to them, although they may not fully understand or

499
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: disclose it. So a competent psychotherapist is um likely to

500
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: acknowledge that current knowledge does not allow the definite conclusion

501
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 1: without corroborating evidence. So again, the general consensus is that

502
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: people don't completely unconsciously forget everything that happened. It's virtually impossible. Um.

503
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: And so there this idea that during therapy, while you're

504
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: coaxing these memories out, you're actually forming pseudotherapy is backed

505
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: up by a lot of follow up Researchudo memory pseudo memory, sorry,

506
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: um is backed up by research. There's a searcher, famous

507
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: memory researcher named Elizabeth Loftus. She found that participants of

508
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: the study came to believe that they had done something

509
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 1: they hadn't when confronted with witnesses who said that they

510
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 1: had done it. That's the real danger in all this

511
00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:19,719
Speaker 1: sure is that these memories become just as valid as

512
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: real memories and do damage because they aren't real. And

513
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 1: there's actually a real life case that came out of

514
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: all this who this one was crazy? Paul Ingram. Paul

515
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 1: Ingram was a sheriff's deputy um. And he was accused

516
00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: by his young daughter of Satanic ritually abusing her, and

517
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: that he was a member of a Satanic cult and

518
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: that um, she had been raped by this cult six

519
00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:47,320
Speaker 1: to eight hundred times. Um, they had been involved in

520
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 1: the murder of twenty five babies at least. And paul

521
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 1: Ingram said, I don't remember any of this, but um,

522
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 1: you must be right. So I am going to confess

523
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 1: he was a true too, wouldn't he. Yeah, he was

524
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 1: a fundamentalist um Christian. So he was very much primed

525
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 1: to believe that there is um a very a very

526
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: real Satan roaming the earth. And if his daughter is

527
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: telling him that he did this, why what what reason

528
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: does she have to lie? So he actually, I mean

529
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: he bought into it and took the rap for this

530
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,959
Speaker 1: even though it never happened. No one ever showed that

531
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: any of this stuff happened. Yeah, he served his full

532
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,320
Speaker 1: prisons and it's of twenty years, twenty years and maybe

533
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 1: didn't even do it anything. Yeah, But he himself said, well,

534
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I did, and I think he

535
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: fully bought into it over to such a weird reversal

536
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: in that case, you know, UM should we take another

537
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: break maybe, so all right, we'll take another break here

538
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 1: and talk about the media and then some other theories

539
00:32:47,240 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: in cases in satanic panic story. All right, if you

540
00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: were alive during the nineteen eighties and early nineties, which

541
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: I was, then, you remember Oprah, Haraldouble, Sally, Jesse, Raphael,

542
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 1: you name it, every single talk show, Dona Hue doing

543
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: lots and lots of shows on satanic death cults. If

544
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 1: it's two pm on a Wednesday afternoon and you want

545
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: to figure out how to get America to turn their

546
00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: TV to your station, you would have had a choice

547
00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:35,960
Speaker 1: of different shows to watch, probably totally yeah, on the

548
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: same day, right, um, and yeah, everybody did Satanists and

549
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: Horaldo was the king of this. He actually had a

550
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 1: two hour primetime special in called Exposing Satan's Underground and

551
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: it is on YouTube and I think about teen parts.

552
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: I watched one of them where he had Assie on

553
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: and Ozzie's like, uh for Ozzie, he's Ozzie looks like

554
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 1: a pre golden girl's door. The is the way he's

555
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 1: dressed and done up. It's awesome. But he's like, I

556
00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: don't mean to freak anybody out with music. Um. He

557
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 1: doesn't know what to make of this, but was like,

558
00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 1: as he just sit there, we'll get back to you. Like,

559
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,280
Speaker 1: but there's this classic line in this right, Haralda goes

560
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 1: they're talking about a murder that was carried out by

561
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: this boy and um, Haraldo says to this copy, goes, detective,

562
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: you're a cop, not a theologian, but let me ask you.

563
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: Was this boy possessed? Dead? Serious? And the cop was like,

564
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: I he had just a little bits like I think

565
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: that's a state of mind. But yeah, and in that sense, yes,

566
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,359
Speaker 1: I think he was. Haralda doesn't get what he's looking

567
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: for out of the guy, so he goes to an

568
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 1: actual theologian, a priest. He goes, uh, you know you're

569
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 1: you're you're charged with um investigating these cases for the

570
00:34:51,600 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: Catholic Church. Do you think that this is a case

571
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: of possession? He's like absolutely, And harld was like, yes,

572
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 1: that's what I was looking for. But that's the level

573
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,240
Speaker 1: of journalism that people were tuning into on like NBC

574
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: at eight o'clock for two hours in like the highest

575
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: rated two hour TV documentary ever and a third or

576
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: a half of America is like, what idiot believes this

577
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,439
Speaker 1: is the most entertaining thing I've ever seen. The other

578
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: half is scared to death and thinks that all of

579
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: this is totally real. Yeah, you know, it's easy to

580
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: laugh about now, but shame on all of them. Well,

581
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:28,040
Speaker 1: Haraldough came out and said, I want to apologize for

582
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: that bit of journalism. That was really bad, and I'm

583
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: sorry for it. But I mean that's how he made

584
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:35,319
Speaker 1: his name with stuff like that. Well, he was caught

585
00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 1: up in the moral panic everyone was doing it. There

586
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 1: was a book in children's picture book UM called Don't

587
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 1: Make Me Go Back, Mommy Colin, a child's book about

588
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 1: satanic ritual abuse to read to your children or if

589
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: you were a therapist, to use in therapy, right, you

590
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: know that. Well they also had in many of the

591
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: court cases a little little anatomically correct rag dolls that

592
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: they would use in court like you know, show me

593
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: where you were touched and things like this, which I'm

594
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: sure that has valid use as well, and you know,

595
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 1: like sex abuse cases for sure, but you're like completely

596
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: poopooing that you have to, um, you have to use that.

597
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: I would imagine you your training in how to do

598
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: that correctly without inadvertently or advertently leading the child on

599
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: into creating some sort of pseudo memory. It should be extensive,

600
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: I would guess, you know, I mean, yeah, So the

601
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: media was definitely complicit in all this. Really saw that

602
00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: there's a lot of ratings to be had in just

603
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: fanning the flames of the satanic panic, and I think

604
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: a lot of people bought into it as well. Um

605
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: And then so too were things like the um the

606
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: field of psychiatry and psychology very much complicit in this

607
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: by allowing repressed memory therapy to really spread as much

608
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 1: as it did without any kind of real, um verified

609
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 1: research into whether it was real or not. And to

610
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 1: defend them a little bit, Robert also makes the points

611
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: they're probably well meaning, probably thinking they were doing this

612
00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 1: great work, like helping these kids, but like with no

613
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: scientific basis whatsoever, right, and lacking a lot of critical

614
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: thinking too. And they dressed as pumpkins and shot the

615
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 1: kids in the arms and the legs. Where are the

616
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: bullet wounds? How exactly did they get the kids to

617
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 1: Mexico and then back to Austin in the average daycare

618
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: day Secret tunnels, you know, secret tunnels. That was an

619
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,720
Speaker 1: explanation there was a lot there. There wasn't enough critical thinking.

620
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 1: So you can definitely take UM the media, psychology, psychiatry

621
00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: UM and a lot of UM law enforcement investigators to

622
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: task for this. But really there are a lot of

623
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: hucksters and frosters making a lot of money as UM

624
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: satanic experts at the time. Both is like legal UM,

625
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 1: legal UH representatives, UM expert witnesses, expert witnesses, authors UM

626
00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:09,879
Speaker 1: going on shows like Heraldo and Sally Jesse, Raphael uh

627
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: and those people are really should bear the brunt of

628
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: this because they were just lying, yeah, lying, lying, lying

629
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: their faces off UM and and scaring people to death

630
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: and making a lot of money out of it. Uh.

631
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 1: So he said it was widespread. There was a Red

632
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: Book magazine survey in and this is at the end

633
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: of the whole thing. Yeah true, UM that found that

634
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,839
Speaker 1: seventy percent of Americans believed in Satanic ritual abuse. Uh.

635
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: And in n this is the really scary one. A

636
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: survey by the American Bar Association Center on Children and

637
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 1: the Law found that twenty six a quarter more than

638
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: a quarter of prosecutors said they handled at least one

639
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,320
Speaker 1: case involving ritual Satanic ritual abuse during that time period.

640
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: So UM. Within that time too, there was a very

641
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: famous case in West Memphis, Arkansas, the West Memphis Three UM,

642
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: who were very famously exonerated thanks to crack documentary filmmaking

643
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 1: UM on HBO's half. As a matter of fact, HBO

644
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: really led the vanguard against this whole satanic panic. UM

645
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:24,080
Speaker 1: they released in UH documentary. I think it was a

646
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: biopic on the McMartin trial. It wasn't a documentary. I

647
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:30,960
Speaker 1: think it was like dramatized, and that really started to

648
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 1: change the tide of how academics, intellectuals, and in the

649
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:38,560
Speaker 1: media itself saw satanic ritual abuse started to expose it

650
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,799
Speaker 1: as this is not real. Yeah, and this is after

651
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: the McMartin trial had been the longest and most expensive

652
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,359
Speaker 1: trial in the history of the United States. That's right,

653
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: fifteen sixteen million dollars spent for with zero can convictions

654
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 1: because it didn't happen UM. And that case actually was

655
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: UM started with a woman who believed her child had

656
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 1: been sexu abused, and the woman actually sadly went on

657
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: to die from alcohol poisoning a couple of years later,

658
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,320
Speaker 1: was schizophrenic. She was diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic in

659
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: that time, and yet nobody stopped and said, oh, well,

660
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:14,319
Speaker 1: wait a minute, she was the center of the accusers

661
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: of all this. Should we take another look at all this?

662
00:40:17,560 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: It was like, no, let's spend fifteen million dollars of

663
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 1: taxpayer money trying to prosecute these people and get zero

664
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 1: convictions out of it. Um, the West Memphis three were

665
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: successfully prosecuted in Arkansas, I mean railroaded. There is no

666
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: other way to put this, thanks to something like a

667
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,959
Speaker 1: false confession by Jesse ms Kelly um, which is mind

668
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: blowing until you should go listen to our episode on

669
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: false confessions, which I believe you did that one right. Uh,

670
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: either that or it was a part of another one.

671
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 1: But yeah, we covered that topic for um and and

672
00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: all of that was based on the satanic panic thing

673
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: as well. Um, but you go. You should definitely watch

674
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: those again. HBO documentaries Paradise Lost, one, two, and three

675
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: and the a Um they made the original and Paradise

676
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 1: Lost the Child Murders of Robin Hood Hills and I

677
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: think they thought it was the same guy. Did you

678
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: see Brothers Keeper the other documentary? Yeah, about the older

679
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 1: older brothers. Love that one man. That's the same guy

680
00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: that Brothers Keepers will put him on the map. So

681
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,239
Speaker 1: I think he thought that Paradise Lost One was just

682
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: the documentary. And to his credit, Joe biden Burlinger, I

683
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:30,920
Speaker 1: think he uh, he really championed this case and followed

684
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: it to its conclusion over the course of two more

685
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: documentaries over the years. Yeah, and from what I understand,

686
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,280
Speaker 1: he changed his mind about the content or the crime

687
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: mid stream, Like I think, didn't he go there thinking

688
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: he was just covering the crime, And then when I

689
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: actually saw what was going on, I was like, whoa, Yeah,

690
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 1: I think I think he was. I mean, because of him,

691
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: they were exonerated ultimately. Yeah, Like he got three people

692
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: out of prison, one off death row. Yeah, um yeah,

693
00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 1: hats off. But again, this is part of the Satanic

694
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:02,680
Speaker 1: panic scare um and that not that one that kind

695
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: of came at the end of it. But the McMartin

696
00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:09,359
Speaker 1: movie on HBO started to change the tide, and so

697
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: too to the exoneration of a woman named um Margaret

698
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: Kelly Michael's in New Jersey. Um In. She was let

699
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 1: out of prison after it was revealed how coercive the

700
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: questioning was. Um of the children who ended up accusing

701
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: her of this, and that was true in every case.

702
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: It seems like it was. It shed a lot of

703
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: light onto this and people started going like, well, whoa, whoa, whoa, Wait,

704
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 1: this is coercive. Let's look at these other cases. And

705
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,840
Speaker 1: you go back and look at the transcripts and see like, Okay,

706
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: these people were basically telling the kids what they wanted

707
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,320
Speaker 1: to hear. They were using approval whenever the kids said

708
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 1: something that that pointed the finger. They were using disapproval

709
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:53,080
Speaker 1: when the kids refused to talk or whatever or implicate

710
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 1: anyone um. And if you go back and really listen

711
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: to what the kids are saying, a lot of the

712
00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,920
Speaker 1: times they're like, no, nothing happened. Well, and then they

713
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: would follow that with are you sure this didn't happen?

714
00:43:03,080 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 1: Are you sure this didn't happen? You're not supposed to

715
00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 1: do that, and you're certainly not supposed to put people

716
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 1: in prison for half of their lives. Well, and you're

717
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 1: especially not supposed to do that to a kid who's

718
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: highly suggestible and wants to please, because most kids want

719
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 1: to please. And when you look at some of these allegations,

720
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: it sounds like if you asked a three year old

721
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 1: to make up what they think ritual abuse would be.

722
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 1: Here's here's what a kid would say. Yeah, they locked

723
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 1: us in a closet with spiders and snakes. Yeah, they

724
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 1: put us in a pool with sharks that ate babies,

725
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: and they fed us baby parts. So. UM, the real

726
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: death knell of the Satanic ritual abuse scare came UM

727
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 1: with a meta survey for UM, the National Center and

728
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: Child Abuse and Neglect. And this study it contacted UM prosecutors,

729
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: regular lawyers, social workers, psychologists, I think that was it,

730
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:01,320
Speaker 1: thousands and tens of thousands of them across the country.

731
00:44:01,560 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 1: Ended up whittling it down to a sizeable sample and

732
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: found UM all sorts of things. Specifically, what they found

733
00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: is there was no evidence whatsoever of any Satanic cults

734
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 1: operating anywhere in the U s or a single crime

735
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: carried out by a Satanic cult. That said that they

736
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 1: found a couple of UM crimes that were carried up

737
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: by people allegedly in the name of Satan, but that

738
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 1: these were most likely inspired by the Satanic panic itself

739
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: and solo affairs. That's what Yeah, that's what That's what

740
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 1: I'm saying, UM. But they had had it was in

741
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: a satanic cult by any means UM. They also found

742
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: in this study that children um of the ages that

743
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 1: that where they would go to daycare, weren't capable of

744
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 1: forming the type of accusations against satanic ritual abuse um

745
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: that people have been convicted of. That clearly, the adults

746
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 1: were the ones who were channeling themselves through their children

747
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: to accuse these people. The kids were saying things like

748
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: they locked us in a closet with spiders and snakes.

749
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 1: They weren't saying like they carved open a baby and

750
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,439
Speaker 1: um sexually abused it and then we all drank its

751
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 1: blood while everyone's wearing black ropes. They're they're not sophisticated

752
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: enough to think that kind of thing. So the study

753
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: also proved that too. And then ironically, the same survey

754
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: found plenty of evidence of religious based crimes, including murders

755
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: carried out things like exorcisms that went too far. That

756
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 1: kind of stuff. They're like, that actually is real, And ironically,

757
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 1: we have a lot of laws protecting people who do that,

758
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,319
Speaker 1: but we have laws that step up the punishment for

759
00:45:44,440 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: satanic abuse even though that doesn't exist. And that one

760
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: really changed the tide of how people saw the Satanic panic.

761
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,680
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and then experts later came out and said

762
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 1: as far as the uh physical abuse, and the doctors

763
00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: who testified at trial, like the type of physical abuse

764
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: these kids were enduring, they were like a layman could

765
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 1: look at a child and and say, wow, what happened

766
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: to this kid? But you will obviously never be able

767
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 1: to reproduce. Yes, you're totally mangled. Not this like ambiguous like, well, yeah,

768
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 1: I think that it seems like they had some marks

769
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: where they could have been, you know, molested or something like.

770
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,399
Speaker 1: It would have been so obvious because these allegations were

771
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 1: so far out there And of course years later they

772
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: say this. At the time, everyone was drinking the flavor aid,

773
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 1: you know, nice, the blood drenched flavor aid and insult

774
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: to injury that same media, all of a sudden, the

775
00:46:43,040 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: hot story became the outrage that was Satanic panic, and

776
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: what a bunch of crap that it was. So now

777
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,759
Speaker 1: let's cover that story in full, even though we had

778
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 1: a lot to do with it. Yeah, um, so, Chuck,

779
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,799
Speaker 1: why did people drink the flavor aid? Like, what was

780
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: the immediate reason for the satanic panic? Well, you found

781
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: this great article which one I found a lot of

782
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:11,959
Speaker 1: great articles the three uh Satanic ritual abuse as Oh yeah,

783
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: this sociological article, Yeah, that was good. Um. They have

784
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:20,480
Speaker 1: a few reasons um as subversion ideology, as rumor panic,

785
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: and as contemporary legend. And the subversion ideology I thought

786
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: was super interesting. I didn't even know what that was.

787
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard of it before you. They define it

788
00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 1: as a culturally constructed myth that gives shape and formed

789
00:47:32,480 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 1: feelings of anxiety and uncertainty about the future that our

790
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: experienced between periods of rapid, unpredictable social change. Right, So

791
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 1: so we're anxious. We're not even necessarily conscious of our anxiety,

792
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: but we just we don't feel quite right. Everything's changing

793
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: and we don't know what's going on. So what's yeah,

794
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: what what? What exactly is making us nervous? Oh? How

795
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 1: about that group over there, Satanists? Yeah, basic Jews, and

796
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,640
Speaker 1: before that it was Christians exactly. Now it puts a

797
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 1: face to to this underlying sense of dread we feel

798
00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:03,520
Speaker 1: because the times are a changeing, exactly, and it gives

799
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 1: us a um an outlet at the expense of other people.

800
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:11,440
Speaker 1: But that's the with the subversion ideology. The hallmark. Characteristic

801
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: of it is that that that other group takes everything

802
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: we hold dear and values the opposite of it. So

803
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: Satanists they use upside down crosses and evil is what's

804
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 1: really good, and um it was. It's a classic example

805
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,279
Speaker 1: of subverse subversion ideology. Well, and one thing I thought

806
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: was really interesting in here is, um, they contend. And

807
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: I'm sure it's true that subversion ideology actually ends up

808
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: having a stabilizing effect because people then go, oh, okay,

809
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: well that's why I'm so upset and worried and anxious

810
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: is because of the Satanist, not what's really going on,

811
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: which is the end of the millennium apparently really yeah whatever.

812
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 1: That was Another explanation I ran across is that it

813
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 1: was millennial anxiety. Um. There is also know that another

814
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 1: one you said, moral or rumor panic, yeah, um, which

815
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:04,760
Speaker 1: we touched on before. But basically that is this idea

816
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: that um, it's just buying into a rumor and like

817
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: really really buying into it. And the way you buy

818
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,320
Speaker 1: into it is because all of a sudden, um, professional

819
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 1: psychiatrists and psychologists and law enforcement people and people in

820
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 1: the newspaper are talking about this stuff like it's fact.

821
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,800
Speaker 1: And with that, because we trust these people as being smart,

822
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:27,239
Speaker 1: intelligent people, it becomes fact in the eyes and the

823
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 1: minds of just normal people, and that gives it veracity

824
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: in and of itself. Once people start believing something as

825
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: fact without any proof, you are rumor. Panic has just

826
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 1: set in well, and ironically to them, it seems like

827
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 1: the more out there the panic is, the more readily

828
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:48,239
Speaker 1: it's believed, because that the old like who would make

829
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: something like that up right, a three year old might

830
00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: being coaxed by police and her parents and her shrink.

831
00:49:54,680 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: And then the last one is an urban legend, which

832
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:59,319
Speaker 1: we talked about before, but the sociological article pointed something

833
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: out that I hadn't thought out of that, UM. Urban

834
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: legends deal in metaphors, even though we don't think of

835
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 1: them as metaphors. So in this case, the children that

836
00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:11,440
Speaker 1: were being abused by Satanists were a metaphor for our future,

837
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,080
Speaker 1: and children are future. Just go ask Whitney Houston. You

838
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: can't it's true, um. And then as people start to

839
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: buy into it, it becomes a rumor panic and you

840
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 1: can dress it up with some version ideology. So in

841
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:29,319
Speaker 1: the end, UH, the mcmartin's I don't think they ever well.

842
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 1: I think they never prosecuted. I think they were in

843
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,439
Speaker 1: jail here and there while the trial was going on. Yeah,

844
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: but they were never prosecuted, but never successfully prosecuted. The

845
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:41,560
Speaker 1: Kellers were eventually exonerated, but they spent twenty one years

846
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,000
Speaker 1: in prison. Their life was ruined, twenty one years in

847
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:46,800
Speaker 1: prison each based on these false accusations. I have to say,

848
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 1: if you want to read one of the better articles

849
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:51,400
Speaker 1: I've ever read, it's called The Innocent and the Damned.

850
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 1: It's from Texas Monthly. Was written while this satanic panic

851
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: is going on, but somehow Texas Monthly took a critical

852
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 1: eye to this stuff. It's really good article. I thought

853
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 1: this was so fascinating because as crazy as it seems now,

854
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: and like I was saying at the very beginning, like

855
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: how in the world in the nineteen eighties did we

856
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:16,279
Speaker 1: buy into this like it was Salem, Massachusetts. Uh, when

857
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: you look at the reasons behind it, it was like

858
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: the perfect storm coalescing. Uh. It sort of makes perfect

859
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 1: sense when you look at everything behind it. It does,

860
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 1: but doesn't it also still like, even even even if

861
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: you take into account that you're using hindsight, and that

862
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: the perspective that's afforded by that, the gull ability I know,

863
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: that's it that is involved in a moral panic is

864
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 1: It's just it's saddening. I bet Edward Burns would have

865
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: been all over this. Oh yeah, well he fomented those

866
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:52,839
Speaker 1: kind of things, you know, Um, yeah, yeah, it's sad. Also,

867
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: if you want some yucks, go look up Law Enforcement

868
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,760
Speaker 1: Guide to Satanic Cults on YouTube hit the video series

869
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 1: Yeah so weird. I'm glad to know that you had

870
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: a Satan house in your neighborhood too. I think everybody

871
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 1: did a rumors that, like somebody found a cat with

872
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 1: its head cut off in a panagram and he's like, oh,

873
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 1: that happened because I'm ten, which is okay if you're ten,

874
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,560
Speaker 1: but if you're fifty, it's not okay, especially if you're

875
00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,719
Speaker 1: the local prosecutor. Uh. And it also one last thing, chuck,

876
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,839
Speaker 1: It makes you wonder what moral panics are we working

877
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 1: on right now. It's not like this is ancient history.

878
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: You know. If you want to know more about moral

879
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 1: panics and specifically the Satanic panic, you can type those

880
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: words into the search bart how stuff works dot com

881
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: so I said, search parts time for a listener and mail.

882
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 1: Here's what I predict is that some people are going

883
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: to write in and say, dudes, we're in the middle

884
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 1: of another moral panic right now and it is blank

885
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: vocal fry. Perhaps some lady called me the fry Master

886
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 1: and an email. Do you see that? No? I didn't.

887
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 1: She was like, Chuck always uses vocal fry, and then

888
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 1: when I listened to my voice, I'm like, I totally do,

889
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 1: but uh, he totally. I've noticed it a lot more

890
00:53:04,120 --> 00:53:09,640
Speaker 1: since we um uh said that you do that episode? Yeah, yeah, whatever,

891
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:12,320
Speaker 1: being me, Yeah, man, you should. I'm a trend setter.

892
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this. Um oh, guys sitting a straight

893
00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 1: on these grocery store donations. Okay, hey guys, a long

894
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:24,879
Speaker 1: time listener. Love you guys. Never thought, uh, this would

895
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,239
Speaker 1: be the reason I have to reach out to you.

896
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:30,239
Speaker 1: At the end of the podcast on Tuesday, um you said,

897
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: I don't know which podcast it was. At the end

898
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,359
Speaker 1: of the recent podcast, actually had to stop and say

899
00:53:36,400 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: no because my friends Josh and Chuck didn't just do that.

900
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:42,720
Speaker 1: I told people not to donate a dollar to buy

901
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,360
Speaker 1: the little hot air balloons at the grocery store because

902
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 1: the company then uses those donations to get text credit.

903
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: This is absolutely not true. That is not true what

904
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: that guy said. He says, I have actually been working

905
00:53:55,640 --> 00:53:59,760
Speaker 1: with Children's Miracle Network hospitals in Connecticut for about twenty years.

906
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 1: And by the way, when I said the balloons, I

907
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: forgot that was Children's Miracle Network specifically. I used to

908
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:06,920
Speaker 1: do a lot of work with them in l a

909
00:54:08,120 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: them on video shoots. No, of course not. It's they're amazing.

910
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,960
Speaker 1: You're like, it's the shamrocks. I have a problem. I know.

911
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,919
Speaker 1: It just felt terrible after that. So um, he says,

912
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,760
Speaker 1: our corporate partners do not get text credits for donations

913
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:22,320
Speaker 1: made by their customers. In fact, many of our corporate

914
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: partners ring these donations through their registers, so the donation

915
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 1: shows on the customer's receipt, allowing them to use that

916
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 1: for their taxes. What a quick fun fact about the

917
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: miracle balloon um that I reference is that the first

918
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: one ever sold the entire world was at a small

919
00:54:38,880 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 1: diner in downtown Middletown, Connecticut to roy Comb in nineteen

920
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,640
Speaker 1: I thought he's gonna say like nineteen not four. Uh.

921
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,360
Speaker 1: Soon after that um. The Miracle Balloon became a multinational

922
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,239
Speaker 1: program that raises money for more than one seventy local

923
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: children's hospitals across the US in Canada, and its creator

924
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: became very, very rich. As I mentioned, I've been doing

925
00:55:03,000 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: this job for about twenty years, and I have to

926
00:55:04,440 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: tell uh that I always say I have the best

927
00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 1: job in the world. I get to work with amazing

928
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: people like my co workers and all of our partners,

929
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: and I get to work for the most inspiring people

930
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 1: are patient families. Please help me get this corrected. The

931
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 1: stuff you should know, legion, don't worry. I still love you, guys.

932
00:55:20,520 --> 00:55:24,840
Speaker 1: That is from Scott uh organ Eck, the director of

933
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: Children's Miracle Network Hospitals. Wow from the horse's mouth or

934
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,840
Speaker 1: a director? Yeah, so I don't. We're gonna have to

935
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 1: look in this a little further. I think we got

936
00:55:34,640 --> 00:55:37,640
Speaker 1: other people that said that's not true, and other people

937
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: said it is true for Children's Miracle Network. I'm sure

938
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:42,239
Speaker 1: he knows what he's talking about, but there are all

939
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,279
Speaker 1: kinds of things that done it too, And it's also

940
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 1: probably not a liar. I don't know. He seems like

941
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: a regular guy, not a Satanic ritual abuser. No, not

942
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: at all in any way, So we'll look into it.

943
00:55:55,719 --> 00:55:58,239
Speaker 1: I certainly did not mean to disparage the no I

944
00:55:58,280 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 1: did there, and I mean, if that's the way it works,

945
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:02,840
Speaker 1: I retract that, but I need to look into it

946
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 1: a little more first, all right, the jury's out. Um,

947
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: thank you very much. What was his name? David? David,

948
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,279
Speaker 1: You're awesome. Thank you for the work you're doing too.

949
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: If you want to get in touch with us to

950
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,640
Speaker 1: set us straight, we love that. You can tweet to

951
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,359
Speaker 1: us at s y s K podcast. You can join

952
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff you Should Know.

953
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:22,040
Speaker 1: You can send us an email to stuff Podcast at

954
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: how Stuff Works dot com, and as always, join us

955
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,799
Speaker 1: at our home on the web. Stuff you Should Know

956
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: dot Com. Stuff you Should Know is a production of

957
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,680
Speaker 1: iHeart Radio's How Stuff Works for more podcasts for my

958
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: Heart Radio because at the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

959
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.