WEBVTT - Buffalo Bill's Nipple Ring 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:10.320 That's my hannibal lector it's kind of like, UM, it's 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:19.560 me getting my cold brew. Everyone. It's spooky season, and 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.120 all month long we are, you know, revisiting some of 0:00:23.160 --> 0:00:27.480 our favorite spooky movies, trying out some new ones, also 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:33.640 looking at some you know, larger thematic scary vibes. UM. 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:36.800 But today we're diving into I think one of the 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:41.760 most iconic psychological thrillers of all time that UM, I 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:43.960 watched for the first time last year and Fran just 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:46.800 watched for the first time, Silent to the Lambs, starring 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.240 Jodie Foster and Anthony Hopkins. UM. It has it has 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:57.200 everything and thrills, the chills, thrills, chills, stressing, cannibalism, UM, 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:02.480 skin suits, nipple piercing, really good. And you know, obviously 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.360 we're going to look back on it through a contemporary 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:08.679 lens and talk about what we liked about it, what 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:11.920 didn't like about it. UM. You know how it's sort 0:01:11.920 --> 0:01:16.480 of I think spawned the true crime genre that exists today. UM. 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.520 And also it's a part of a maybe problematic or 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:23.840 maybe not UM portrayal of gender devian people. We get 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:26.200 into it, yes, because this is like a version of 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.040 the show where we get yesterday's pop culture, today's takes, 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.280 I'm rosed on you, and I'm fran Toronto. So in 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:36.479 these in these bonus episodes this month, we will only 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.600 be covering the main topic, so you'll get your news 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:43.720 as normal on Thursday. You know, this is kind of 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.600 a rare occurrence on the pod in that the cultural 0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.400 object that I am quote unquote introducing you to is 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:54.440 one that is not actually super formative for me because 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.680 I had never even seen Silence of the Lambs until 0:01:58.360 --> 0:02:01.520 a year ago. It was it was somehow a cultural 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.960 blind spot for me. But I watched it last year, 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.160 totally loved it, and um, now you've and I watched 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:11.840 it last night and we're going to dive into it. Obviously. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.040 You know, this is one of those movies that sort 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:19.120 of you can't exist in pop culture and not know 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.360 about this film. Yeah, it was definitely a movie that 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:26.520 swept the Oscars, was a moment in the culture. Was 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:32.040 highly polarizing, controversial, but prestige and has you know, has 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:37.000 been referenced and rebooted. And you know, Hannibal Lecter is 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:41.240 such a looming figure. He's one of the most celebrated 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:46.400 horribly villains of all time, things like with faba beans 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.040 and a nice kiante, like those are just things that 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:52.080 we say, like they're part of the lexicon of pop 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:56.040 culture that is Clarice um, you know all of that. 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.160 It puts the lotion on its skin. It's there's just 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:02.959 this movie of the looms very large in the cultural consciousness. 0:03:03.040 --> 0:03:09.040 And it's also very queer. Um well often we often problematically, 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:11.640 so I mean it's very queer and that it depicts 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:16.359 queerness in a pathologizing kind of depiction of queerness. I guess, 0:03:16.760 --> 0:03:20.959 you know, it has a queer villain, and it has 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:26.440 some things to say about transness, and it is part 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:33.640 of a canon of films with gender deviant villains. Yeah. 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.240 So if for anyone who out there who has never 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.560 seen Silence of the Lambs, for all the True Virgins, 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:43.560 Silence of the Lambs is a film that is based 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:47.280 on a novel. It is about Clarice Sterling, who's a 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.240 young FBI agent in training. She's still at schools sensibly 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:57.080 lesbian um and she gets pulled into work on a 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:03.880 case with Hannibal Lecter, who is a professor, a doctor, doctor, psychiatrist, 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:09.040 doctor who is in you know, a maximum security um 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:15.560 psychiatric facility for murder, because there is a killer on 0:04:15.560 --> 0:04:19.840 the loose who Lector used to treat and he's asked 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:25.760 for Clarice specifically, and she needs to work with him 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.320 to help them find the missing girl who's been captured 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:31.600 by Buffalo Bill. Has been captured by Buffalo Bill, who 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:38.200 is a gay cross dressing serial killer who skins his 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:42.000 victims alive so that he can wear their flesh, which 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.479 is like J. K. Rowling could not have invented a 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:49.920 better gender deviant villain. I'm sure she will borrow from 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.480 it in future. She has, she has, she released a 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:57.920 book recently where there's a trans um killer. I mean, 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.520 when you watched it a year ago, how did you 0:04:59.520 --> 0:05:02.159 feel about it? Like what was your loved it? And 0:05:02.640 --> 0:05:04.960 you know, I'm sure you will have a lot of 0:05:05.000 --> 0:05:10.000 thoughts about the queerness, and I'm sure that's a point 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:15.440 where we we'll we'll really dig into and and possibly 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.279 disagree on. I really liked it. I love you know, 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:22.640 I love horror movies in general. I think I lean 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.480 towards things that are like a little bit more fantastical 0:05:26.600 --> 0:05:29.599 or scary, but I love a psychological thriller, and Silence 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:34.960 of the Lambs is the psychological thriller. I would say, 0:05:35.320 --> 0:05:36.720 I like to throw you down a hole, but I'd 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:38.520 have to fatten you up first. You have to. That's 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:40.200 one of the things I liked was, you know, there's 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:44.839 fat representation because, as it's explained, Buffalo Bill only kidnaps 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:48.200 plus size women because there's more skin for him to work. 0:05:48.279 --> 0:05:50.280 And then he starves. He starves them so they get 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:52.240 all a little loose and flabby. He puts them on 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:55.720 a crash diet. He's got a he's got a peloton 0:05:55.880 --> 0:06:01.920 down there in the whole. He's got them away watchers prescription. Um, 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.160 you don't get prescribed weight watchers. You get driving here 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:06.800 against your will by your mom. Like what happened to 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.559 me in middle school. Oh my god, yeah, oh god, 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:11.440 we're taking that out. No, no, no no, keep it in, 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:15.200 keep it in, keep it in. Um okay, okay, okay, okay. 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:17.920 I will say, um. The thing that you talked about 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:20.600 right at the top, about how Silence of the Lambs 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:23.040 like is kind of omnipotent in a lot of like 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:26.520 thriller culture. I think it's part of the reason why 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.080 I was kind of like bored. When I watched it, 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.680 I wouldn't say yeah, I thought a lot of it 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:38.400 was like slow, unappealing. Like I didn't think that Anthony 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:41.480 Hopkins was that scary. I thought for me, like Jody 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.080 was the best part of the movie. But I don't 0:06:43.839 --> 0:06:46.000 I want to say that that's on a taste level, 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:47.680 Like I'm not trying to say that I think the 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:52.919 movie is like bad, right, Like but what I was, no, no, no, no, 0:06:53.040 --> 0:06:55.440 I don't think the movie is bad. Um, it's just 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:57.640 not my taste. But I think that the thing you're 0:06:57.680 --> 0:07:00.880 talking about, the omnipotence, is actually the reason I didn't 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:04.280 enjoy the movie. I was watching it and being like 0:07:04.520 --> 0:07:06.560 my brain was kind of being like, oh, that's kind 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:08.680 of cliche, like, oh, I've kind of seen that before. 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.080 It's like, oh, I've like already watched so many movies 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:13.280 that I've done this before, but Silence of the Lamps 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.720 was the first one a lot it is the blueprint, 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:21.360 and because it's yes, and because it was the blueprint, 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.440 watching something like was actually like not scary at all, 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:28.200 and like it's like I I know, yeah, yeah yeah, 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.520 and like again it's it's only because I'm watching it 0:07:32.040 --> 0:07:34.920 and not that I'm having this experience of the film, 0:07:35.120 --> 0:07:38.160 but I think the you know, transphobia and queer phobia 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:40.600 of it all that that we're gonna get into later 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.960 is the kind of icing on the cake of why 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.160 the totality of the movie was just kind of like 0:07:46.400 --> 0:07:48.480 met for me. But I do think the climax is 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.600 really good. I think the dramatic tension is obviously masterful. 0:07:52.040 --> 0:07:57.760 I don't really understand the best actor wins, but like, yeah, 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:01.200 that's just that's just something that I have to disagree with. Yeah, 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:07.640 I think I think they are both incredible performances. Anthony Hopkins, 0:08:08.120 --> 0:08:10.840 I think like every second he's on screen, you can't 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:16.160 look away from him, and he is just so I 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:19.120 don't think there had been this kind of figure in 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:21.800 a movie at this point in pop culture of this 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:26.080 like um, like the elevated villain, you know, like the 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:30.560 stoic good manners even spoken, you know, he wasn't a 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:33.720 caricature of a monster, even though he does very monstrous things. 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:40.600 He's literally a cannibal um. And I think that dichotomy 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.880 is sort of what makes him such a compelling villain, 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.880 is you know, he wants to eat you, but with 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:49.600 fava beans and a nice kiante, right or right? Yeah, 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:52.800 that actually that line perfectly distills like I think him 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:56.840 as a character. For me, it almost like made him boring, 0:08:57.160 --> 0:08:59.760 like like that was like again like that the experience 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.240 I was having a of the film, But like, I 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:04.120 think it's worth noting that, like they went out to 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:07.400 so many other prestige actors before landing on Anthony Hopkins, 0:09:07.400 --> 0:09:09.800 who had like a lot of credits but wasn't as 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.559 big as um Sean Connery who was the first person 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:15.640 to to be tapped for the role al Pacino. Robert 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.280 de Niro, Dustin Hoffman, Daniel day Lewis, and even Forest 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.800 Whittaker audition for this role, which, like Forest, would have 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:24.640 been amazing. I'm sure, but yeah, I I don't know. 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:27.000 I feel like that, but I don't think it could 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:29.400 have been anyone but Anthony Hopkins. He just does it 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:32.600 so perfectly. I think Dustin Hoffman would have been good, 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.160 but that's because I can't really see him because he's 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.760 never played a role like this. And I would say 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:40.760 that his role in I would say him as Hook 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:42.960 is actually maybe a little but he's not like a 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:46.600 cannibal in Hook and I think a lot of effeminate, 0:09:46.880 --> 0:09:50.040 villainous even sure maybe yeah that's a that's a bit 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:53.840 of elite. But you know, I do believe that Silence 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:57.920 of the Lambs is very much an outlier in horror 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:02.480 being given. You know, may and stream critical acclaim it 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.560 was unprecedented. Also something Jaws was like the only one. 0:10:06.640 --> 0:10:10.560 Maybe yeah. Also it was a huge commercial success and um, 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:15.239 something that I learned recently about part of what contributed 0:10:15.280 --> 0:10:17.880 to that is that it came out at the beginning 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:23.880 of the year, and it had a whole year until 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.480 Awards season, and so it came out and then later 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:31.120 that year was already released on home video. So it 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.479 was something that so many people were able to watch 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:39.280 as the fervor around it really built up, so that 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:43.800 by the time the Oscars came around, it had reached 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:48.200 this critical mass of consumption and it was just the 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.480 something that everyone had seen and it was like unavoidable, 0:10:52.920 --> 0:10:56.400 like to you know, talk about it it being a 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:58.880 good movie, like it was a great movie. It was both, 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:03.000 you know, a critical success and a commercial one, and rarely, 0:11:03.160 --> 0:11:08.360 if ever, do those things overlap. Today, you know, we 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.480 have this idea of like the popcorn movies and then 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:14.240 the serious films, and this is one of the few 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.280 times that those two have come together in this kind 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:19.920 of way. Yeah, there are certain VHS tape covers that 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.120 are like on the shelves of Blockbuster that are now 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.440 singed into your memory from like browsing when I was 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:28.520 like eight or ten or whatever, and Silence of the Lambs, 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:32.160 like that cover is deaf with the mom with the moth. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.240 it's very like it has a punked um. You know, 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:39.000 it's immediately something that a punked um. What is that? 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.920 It's like a photography term where like you take a 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:45.200 photo and the photo just works because all of the 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.920 different components of it are like coming together. Like it's 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:50.560 kind of like it's kind of like the Oprah's Aha 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:52.400 moment of like an image, you know what I mean. 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:55.320 You're like, this image just works, and there's something to 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:57.720 it that I can't necessarily describe, but it's just like 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:00.400 you're like, I can't forget it. You know. Do you 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:02.880 know who they went out to for Jennie Foster's role 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:08.360 before she got it? Um, Michelle Fiverer, Okay, Meg Ryan 0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:14.200 and Laura Dern. Laura would have been amazing Yeah. And 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.040 I wonder if you know, looking at these looking at 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:19.960 these lists of all the people who passed on it, 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:22.959 I think probably what you know I've just been talking 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:25.520 about is probably part of the reason is these actors 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:30.520 didn't want to quote unquote lower themselves to be in 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:38.520 this like paperback adaptation, you know, mainstream popcorn movie, horror movie. Um, 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:41.560 that ended up being a huge, you know, commercial and 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:46.240 critical success and really made the careers of Jodie Foster 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.079 and and like Athoney Hopkins may be to a lesser 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.880 except definitely career defining, career defining. This is the role 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.280 that he will always be remembered for, certainly not Westworld. Yeah, 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:57.400 and to your point, um, Sean Connery when he read 0:12:57.440 --> 0:13:00.080 the script, he was like, this is like revolting or something, 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:01.959 and he turned it down, and Michelle Fifer turned it 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.480 on specifically because she was like, I can't do this 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:07.840 subject matter like it's two it's two issue. Um can 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:09.760 I can I say? When we were watching the movie, 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.400 I think, honestly, here's here's here's what I'm actually how 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.280 I'm actually feeling a little bit about the movie is 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.920 that like I, um, I'm again, I'm not trying to 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.440 say it's like bad or anything, or like take it 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:23.800 down a peg. No, no, I actually am trying to 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:25.719 take it down a peg because, like I think, when 0:13:25.760 --> 0:13:28.400 I was watching it, is like, this is an amazing movie. 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:32.280 I don't really feel that it belongs in the canon 0:13:32.400 --> 0:13:36.479 of greatest movies of all time, because it is frequently 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:40.079 ranked in the greatest movies of all time kind of 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:43.760 lists that critics and cinefils always make, like this is 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.440 always up there. I feel like I'm seeing it everywhere. 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:49.120 And when I watched it, I was like, the greatest 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.360 movie of all time is like timeless, and like this 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.560 is not timeless at all, Like it has it lacks 0:13:55.160 --> 0:14:01.320 a relevancy in the conceit of the murders and like 0:14:01.559 --> 0:14:04.080 the kind of reveal of this skin suit and like 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.480 all these different things. I was like, it just doesn't 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.640 feel um. It didn't feel at all like something I 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:14.120 could give myself to um in terms of like the 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:15.960 dramatic tension, you know what I mean. Like I was 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.000 just kind of distracted by it. But but and this 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.000 is not me being shady. Isn't that just kind of 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.160 the nature of how you watch movies as you are 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:29.440 very distracted and this movie is very slow and introspective. Yeah, 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.560 um no, yeah, yeah, yeah, I am very easily bored. 0:14:33.600 --> 0:14:37.840 That is totally true. I think, Um, part of what 0:14:37.880 --> 0:14:41.440 I'm responding to is like the Riddler energy that, like 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.560 Anthony Hopkins was giving Jodie Foster, like when he was 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.480 just like, you know, being like of low bills in 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.440 any agram for fucking I don't know, bubble butt or whatever. 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:55.320 It's like it's like I actually like don't care about 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:57.360 the instagrams, Like I don't care about like the puzzles. 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.120 I think. So, I think that's so clever. I just 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.280 I didn't there were too many angiograms and anagrams, too 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:06.359 many anagrams, too many of the kind of like riddles 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.440 and clues, and I was just like, but that's the 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:10.600 whole point of the movie. Yeah, but it wasn't like 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.640 true that's not how true crime works, Like, but what 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.840 do you mean by that? Because in a lot of ways, 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.960 this movie is kind of one of the origins of 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:24.920 our contemporary fascination Withdrew crime, because I think because the 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.240 things that the clues revealed, like the fact that Hester 0:15:29.440 --> 0:15:33.000 whatever her faces is like an anagram for the rest 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.720 of her or something like that. I was like, it's 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:38.200 just it wasn't compelling to me, Like it wasn't like 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:42.440 mine shattering lee, Like it wasn't a mind shattering twist. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.720 Like that's kind of how I was and being such 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:47.440 like a kind of Debbie Downer about this, Like I actually, 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:49.880 I think you're look. I think the thing is this 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.960 is not a movie about twists, and you know it's 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:55.160 funny because it is about twists. The skin suit is 0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:57.360 a big reveal, Yeah, but it's not a movie where 0:15:57.360 --> 0:16:00.000 it's like there's one singular gag that it's all built. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.320 I think the skin suit is one singular gag that 0:16:02.400 --> 0:16:04.400 the movie. I don't. I don't think so. I think 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.360 this movie, more than anything, is about the relationship between 0:16:07.880 --> 0:16:13.800 Clarice and Hannibal actor. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, obviously, and that's no. 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.280 But but that's the most interesting part of it and 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.800 the most enduring part of it. So I think you're 0:16:18.920 --> 0:16:22.600 kind of a little bit judging it against the movie 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:25.320 that you kind of were expecting it to be, rather 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.560 than the movie it actually is. Yeah. I think so too. 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:31.720 Um My main takeaway honestly is that I want Buffalo 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.840 Bill's nipple ring. I think it was really good. Yeah, 0:16:34.960 --> 0:16:36.760 I see, this is how I keep saying, I want 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:39.440 to get my nipples reaps. And it was cool. It 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:58.680 was like, okay, perfect, perfect nipple ring. Let's talk about 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.560 the Buffalo Bill, because I think you're going to have 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.919 a different take on this than I am. Maybe you won't, 0:17:07.160 --> 0:17:12.359 but I don't have a problem with Buffalo Bill. I 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:17.280 think Buffalo Bill's iconic um and one of the things 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:20.840 I appreciate about this movie that gets lost and abstracted 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:22.560 a lot in the way that we talk about it 0:17:23.040 --> 0:17:28.720 more broadly in pop culture. The Thomas Harris's novel and 0:17:28.880 --> 0:17:34.840 the film are very specific in saying that Buffalo Bill 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:38.040 is not trans. Yeah, he's a man. He's a man. 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:45.760 And Thomas Harris has said multiple times, both when his 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:47.840 book came out, when this movie came out, and in 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:50.879 year's past that he wanted to make it very clear 0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:55.000 that Buffalo Bill wasn't trans, and he has said I 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.439 think in years since like that he still feels like 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:01.440 he let down trans people in the way that Buffalo 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:04.280 Bill is depicted, and I think more so the way 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:07.320 that culture reacted to Buffalo Bill and the way that 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:12.200 Buffalo Bill has kind of become this symbol of like 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:18.360 what transphobic people think about trans people. Um. But I 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:23.520 did really appreciate that nuance in the movie, even though 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:26.239 it's obviously a very dated kind of nuanced because the 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:29.520 way that they like quote unquote decide that Buffalo Bill 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.960 are approved, that Buffalo Bill isn't trans is that he 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.560 doesn't want surgery. He doesn't kind of fit the bill 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:38.600 of of you know, trans people who have like a 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:43.760 sort of diagnosable um, you know, like illness of being trans. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:47.480 It is a little trans medicalist. Yeah, I think that. 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:50.560 I think the word pathologizing is the right word for 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:55.160 how this, um, how Buffalo Bill's character goes down, um 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:57.879 in the same in the same way like most horror 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:00.679 films pathologized like people with disabilit at ease, right or 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.520 like we've also we've probably seen other kind of trans 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:07.840 villainy reveals and stories in horror films of your and 0:19:07.880 --> 0:19:11.440 so you know, to your point, like, yes, I I 0:19:11.880 --> 0:19:14.600 think when I watched the Buffalo Bill character, I was like, 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.280 this is like, to me, scary, really well done. The 0:19:17.400 --> 0:19:21.119 use of the fucking Horses song was amazing. Um. I 0:19:21.200 --> 0:19:24.600 think the sequence when he's like dancing is great so good. 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.119 It's I think was my favorite like part of the film, 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:28.840 like the reveal of that and the nipple ranging all 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:32.520 that stuff, Like I actually really loved it. So I, um, 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:34.960 before I kind of like give my take, I actually 0:19:35.040 --> 0:19:37.439 I'm curious. So are you saying so you said the 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.919 book specifically says Buffalo Bill is not trans. Do you 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.639 think the movie blurs those lines? Are you think the 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.159 movie also says no? The movie also says that the 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:48.879 movie also says that you don't think there's like a 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.200 kind of okay. So the movie also says that despite that, 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:57.080 culturally people can inflate the experience of like trans people 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:01.280 with like serial killer cross dresser. Yes, because if you 0:20:01.280 --> 0:20:03.440 look at it on its face, Buffalo Bill is someone 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:08.520 who wants to um possess and wear femininity in like 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.439 a very literal way. He wants to skin these women 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.280 and turn them into clothing that he can wear, which 0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:18.600 is something that it's a it's a trope that exists. 0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:22.640 Um when you talk about trans people and why turfs 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:26.600 and transwobs hate trans people, especially trans women, is because 0:20:26.640 --> 0:20:31.400 they think that they are co opting um and appropriating 0:20:31.480 --> 0:20:35.200 femininity to wear as a costume in order to gain 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:38.600 access to women's spaces and brutalize them, right, And that 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.520 is a discussion that did not exist, at least in 0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:45.840 the mainstream in and so I think my the way 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:48.960 I kind of felt when I was watching it. First 0:20:48.960 --> 0:20:50.840 of all, it must be said that like you and 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:54.640 I would love to write a serial killer thriller where 0:20:54.640 --> 0:20:57.639 a trans woman is the big bad, you know what 0:20:57.680 --> 0:20:59.720 I mean, like or trans person is the big bad. 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:03.560 Like that would be an amazing movie. Um. Second of all, 0:21:03.600 --> 0:21:05.480 there's nothing that I or you can really say that 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.119 hasn't already been said in like the Disclosure documentary if 0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:10.080 you haven't watched it, they talked about silence of Lambs 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:14.240 briefly in a really distinct way. I am someone who 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.040 doesn't like go to old movies and be like canceled 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:21.040 it's so problematic, like this movie is so transphobic or 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:25.320 like whatever. Um, because, as I said, like the discussions 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.080 just weren't like that in ninety one. This is like, 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:31.920 to some extent, as good as it got for trans 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.600 people on screen, or rather gender deviant people on screen, 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:37.119 which is like a more accurate term here. And um, 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:41.160 I think all I'm trying to say is that because 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:50.120 of the now dated conversations around cross dressing in the film, 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:52.359 I don't really feel like it's one of the greatest 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:55.280 movies of all time. Like that's like really what I'm 0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.679 trying to say and why I'm being a little bit 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:00.560 of a sour puss about it. But like I do, 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:03.320 like I want to see trans Billains, Like that's like 0:22:03.480 --> 0:22:06.439 my tea. Like I want to see like even like 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:08.560 this Dahmer series that came out or whatever. I'm like, 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:10.680 and he's like a gay serial killer or whatever. It's 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:12.719 like I want to watch that, like I do. Like 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:14.800 I'm sorry, but like I do want to watch that, 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:18.240 And I mean the difference, the difference for me is 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:21.560 that's based in reality and this is a fantasy that 0:22:21.760 --> 0:22:23.800 is like fully a lot of how I felt it 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:26.800 about it too, But just as quick as I I 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.399 unfortunately watched the entire series. I know you did, and 0:22:29.800 --> 0:22:34.120 I don't. I don't um you know, judge you harshly 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.280 for that, because I think there is a direct line 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:40.080 from Silence of the Lambs to Dahmer Silence of the 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:43.199 Lambs move all the movies that came after it that 0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:47.760 were inspired by it, The Rise of True crime podcasts. 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:52.720 All of these things have led to something like Dahmer existing, 0:22:52.840 --> 0:22:54.840 and a lot of people want to consume that type 0:22:54.840 --> 0:22:57.960 of media. Yeah, the show really tries to justify itself 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:02.040 and justify the real life harm that this show is 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:06.159 enacting on the real life families of the victims that 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:08.840 are in this story, like literally in this story. Um, 0:23:08.880 --> 0:23:10.680 and there's a lot about it, like on Twitter or 0:23:10.800 --> 0:23:14.200 like in reviews that you can read about. Um. That's honestly. 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:16.800 What's unfortunate is like the rest of the series actually 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:21.080 was like some of Ryan Murphy's like better thriller drama 0:23:21.119 --> 0:23:23.280 and Recent Memory, Like it's better than a lot of 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:26.600 like recent American horror stories series, but it's just the 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:30.360 wrong franchise. Like it doesn't make sense. It's so cliche 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:32.480