WEBVTT - Great Courses: Riviera (feat. Zac Blair) 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.600 Today we're talking about what makes Riviera Country Club a 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:07.240 great golf course. My guest is a professional golfer who 0:00:07.280 --> 0:00:11.240 has played Riviera in competition. He's also a golf course 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:15.440 enthusiast and most recently a golf course developer. His name 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:19.760 is Zach Blair. I'm Garrett Morrison, and this is designing golf, 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:29.160 all right. So today's big question is a two parter. 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:33.279 Why is Riviera a great golf course and how could 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:37.000 it be better? So right off the bat, I'd say 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:40.120 that Riviera is one of the best designed golf courses 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.320 in America. I would put it in the top ten 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.960 in that regard, probably maybe the top five. Is just 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:53.199 an incredibly accomplished work of golf architecture by George Thomas 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.760 and his associate Billy Bell. And the first thing that 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.320 jumps out to me about it is the whole to 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:06.000 whole variety. Every hole feels immediately distinct and memorable. You know, 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.240 Jeff Shackelford likes to talk about the drive home test. 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:14.240 As you're driving home, how easily can you call each 0:01:14.240 --> 0:01:17.640 hole to your memory? And I would say Riviera passes 0:01:17.680 --> 0:01:21.319 that test about as well as any course in the world. 0:01:22.200 --> 0:01:26.959 And that's particularly impressive to me with Riviera because the 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:33.000 property itself doesn't have all that much inherent variety in it. 0:01:33.000 --> 0:01:36.600 It's definitely not bad, you know, it's just a southern 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:41.560 California canyon essentially with a baranka running down one side, 0:01:42.000 --> 0:01:44.720 so there is some stuff to work with, but the 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:50.400 valley floor itself is pretty boring, and there's just not 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:55.280 the kind of undulation that you see at other courses 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:59.840 that are in Riviera's class. You know, you consider Oakmont 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:04.559 or Shinnacok Hills or Marion to be the rivals of Riviera. 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.880 Riviera just doesn't have what those courses have in terms 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:14.040 of topography. And yet each hole at Riviera has its 0:02:14.120 --> 0:02:18.240 own distinct personality. So why don't we walk through a 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:23.200 stretch of holes that I think really exemplifies this characteristic 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:28.480 of Riviera's and that for me is holes four through eight. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:32.040 So starting with the fourth hole, this is a long 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:36.000 par three built right into the canyon wall. It's sort 0:02:36.040 --> 0:02:40.480 of George Thomas's version of a Ridan template. So the 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:44.760 green is protected front left and its slopes as well 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:49.079 as angles front right to back left, and then there's 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:53.080 this big kicker slope coming off the canyon wall feeding 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:58.200 into the green. Just a really striking, beautiful rendition of 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.520 a ridan. Then you get to the fifth hole, a 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:05.519 muscular par four, slight dog leg to the left, plenty 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:07.880 of room on the right, but if you bail out 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.240 to the right, your approach is going to be blocked 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:13.640 out by this big mound that sits front right of 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.880 the green. So it's all about hugging the inside of 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.600 the dog leg there going left if you can. All right, 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:23.639 Now we go to six, which is the famous doughnut 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:26.320 par three with the bunker right in the middle of 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:30.560 the green. Incredibly bold choice by Thomas, but it's also 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:34.840 functional because if you know the contours of the green, 0:03:35.400 --> 0:03:38.360 you can usually put around the bunker. If you're on 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:40.240 the wrong side of it. You see a lot of 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:43.440 players in PGA Tour events chipping over it, and yeah, 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.920 that's an option, but really you can put to almost 0:03:46.960 --> 0:03:49.640 any pin position on that green if you know how 0:03:49.680 --> 0:03:53.040 to use the contours very clever. Then you go to 0:03:53.120 --> 0:03:56.880 the seventh hole, which is a strategic par four playing 0:03:56.920 --> 0:04:01.320 along the main baranka of the property. It's short enough 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.160 to be gettable, but the baranca is on the right. 0:04:04.520 --> 0:04:08.320 And then there's this big bunker that comes in diagonally 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.000 from the left, so the fairway sort of pinches in 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:13.800 and that forces you to make a decision off the 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:18.360 tee about how far up you want to push. Finally, 0:04:18.800 --> 0:04:21.919 the eighth hole is a split fairway par four with 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.520 the baranka running right down the middle, and once again 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.320 decision time off the tee. You have to choose between 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:34.000 two completely different routes, each with its own potential advantages 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:38.600 and disadvantages. So right there in the span of five holes, 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:43.000 you've got a long redand type par three and a 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.479 tough par four, both along the canyon wall. You've got 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:48.880 a shorter par three with a bunker right in the 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:52.960 middle of the green. You've got a short, strategic par four, 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:57.120 and then a double fairway hole. That's a lot of variety, 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.400 and I think it really speaks to Tom Skill in 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:06.640 giving each whole some distinctive characteristic that lodges in the 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:11.239 player's memory, and it also shows Thomas's facility with strategic design. 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.520 All of the par fours in that stretch have some 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:20.440 kind of risk reward element. On five, it's about pushing 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:24.160 toward that left edge. On seven, it's about how much 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:28.360 you want to take on the bottleneck, and on eight 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:33.080 it's about choosing between two entirely different fairways. So you've 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:37.080 got three distinctive flavors of what I would call the 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:41.719 strategic school of golf architecture right there. But each one 0:05:42.160 --> 0:05:46.840 is very well thought out, very well balanced, just ingeniously 0:05:46.920 --> 0:05:51.360 conceived by George Thomas. Okay, So another thing that makes 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:56.080 Riviera special is the quality of its earthworks, Especially for 0:05:56.200 --> 0:06:00.200 nineteen twenty seven, which is when the course opened. Hers 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:03.520 Thomas and Billy Bell, who was his associate and kind 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:07.000 of lead construction guy, moved quite a bit of dirt 0:06:07.279 --> 0:06:12.000 to make everything at Riviera work, and they actually used 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:16.560 some newish technology in this process. They used what were 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:24.320 called road scrapers, basically motorized earth moving vehicles. But when 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:27.640 you visit Riviera for the first time, you don't really 0:06:27.800 --> 0:06:32.520 notice that the land was significantly manipulated. You don't notice 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:36.880 the work of those road scrapers, and that's because Thomas 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:41.600 and Bell were very skilled at concealing their cuts and fills. 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.799 Everything looks natural and effortless, and I think the most 0:06:46.839 --> 0:06:50.200 impressive example of this work is along the canyon wall 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:55.080 at the northwestern end of the site. That's where you'll 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:59.240 find holes four, five and eighteen. Four and five we've 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.480 already talked about from a strategic perspective, but one thing 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:05.680 I'd recommend doing on four and five is walking down 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:09.040 to the left of those greens and looking back up. 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:13.320 That's when you'll see how big those fill pads are 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:17.880 that prop up the greens against the canyon wall. You 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.320 just don't see that when you're playing the holes unless 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:23.800 you hit your ball down there, but if you look 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:28.200 at them, you just see those are massive, right. And 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:33.680 then there's eighteen, which is hugely manufactured. Initially, there was 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:37.640 this twenty foot gully running along the base of the 0:07:37.720 --> 0:07:41.000 hill below the clubhouse and right where they wanted to 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.320 put the eighteenth green, and so to build that green, 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.400 Thomas and Bell filled in the gully and then raise 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:52.520 the green another ten feet to get what you see now. 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.080 But when you look at it today, you would not 0:07:56.360 --> 0:08:01.000 guess that the terrain was originally totally different, and that's 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:05.800 a sign of quality construction. So, yes, Riviera is a 0:08:06.000 --> 0:08:11.960 brilliantly designed golf course. In its current form, however, I 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:16.040 think it falls well short of its potential. So let's 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:21.320 talk about a few specific issues that Riviera has. The 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:26.080 first is the Kakuya grass, which is the primary turf 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.760 found in the fairways and rough at Riviera. This is 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.079 not the original turf. It was probably introduced in nineteen 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:38.880 thirty eight to reinforce certain sections of the property after 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:44.720 a massive flood damaged the course. But it's an incredibly sticky, 0:08:45.240 --> 0:08:49.280 grabby turf type, which means that the ball doesn't bounce 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.640 and run all that much. And that's a shame because 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.120 Thomas designed Riviera to be played along the ground. He 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.880 wanted players to be able to run shots into green 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:04.560 and to use all those interesting slopes and contours that 0:09:04.679 --> 0:09:08.640 Thomas and Bell built. But that's not really the reality 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:12.880 at Riviera anymore. It is primarily an aerial golf course. 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:17.480 The second problem is that the greens and fairways have 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:21.840 shrunk considerably over time. This is an issue you see 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.800 at a lot of classic golf courses. Mowing lines creep 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.560 inward and suddenly you've lost significant portions of the playing surfaces. 0:09:30.160 --> 0:09:33.120 And when that happens, you lose some of the character 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:37.000 of the design. You lose width, you lose strategic angles, 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:39.920 you lose a sense of scale. Right the golf course 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:44.360 matching the scale of the land, everything gets kind of muffled, 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.840 and that's what I think has happened at Riviera. The 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:53.160 third issue I'd point out is the lack of vegetative 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:59.680 texture on the property. Right now, Riviera is dominated by cocua, 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.600 grap and eucalyptus trees, and that makes for a pretty 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:08.600 limited visual palette. If you just compare Riviera with the 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:12.120 North course at Los Angeles Country Club, I think you'll 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:17.920 see what I mean. LACC has that indigenous southern California look. 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:23.280 It has scrubby vegetation, It has a wonderful variety of trees. 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:28.600 The barankas are colorful and rugged, all of which is 0:10:28.640 --> 0:10:31.960 a credit to Gil Hans and the restoration that he 0:10:32.040 --> 0:10:35.400 did there fifteen years ago, and also to the club's 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:39.760 stewardship since then. But I think Riviera could do something similar, 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:45.360 and I wish it would. Finally, and relatedly, the eucalyptus 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:50.080 trees at Riviera are a problem in some places, specifically 0:10:50.080 --> 0:10:52.520 on the thirteenth hole, and this one drives me kind 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:57.000 of crazy. It's a part four with a baranka running 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.280 along the left side. The fairway should go all the 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.200 way to the Baranka, and not only does it not, 0:11:04.200 --> 0:11:08.360 but there's a stand of eucalyptus trees between the baranka 0:11:08.400 --> 0:11:12.679 and the fairway, So the whole has this wonderful natural 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:18.160 hazard that it's just disregarding right now. Now, if Riviera 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:21.520 removed the trees, I'm sure that scores would be lower, 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:23.800 and maybe that would be a problem for the club. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:25.959 Maybe that would be a problem for the PGA Tour, 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:30.280 but it would be a much more interesting and attractive 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:35.640 hole in my opinion. So big picture here, Riviera is 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:39.679 a phenomenal golf course. It is one of the best 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:43.760 designs ever, but I do think it could be much 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:49.280 much better. All right, so let's continue talking about Riviera 0:11:49.320 --> 0:11:52.880 with Zach Blair. Zach is the developer and one of 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.439 the design brains behind the Tree Farm, and he's also 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.640 a PGA Tour professional who has played Rivia in the 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:05.160 tournament now known as the Genesis Invitational. So I thought 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.160 it would be interesting to get his perspective on the 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:12.280 golf course, both as a pro and as a golf 0:12:12.360 --> 0:12:16.840 architecture aficionado. All right, let's jump to my conversation with 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:25.840 Zach Blair. All right, Zach Blair, welcome to the pod. 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:26.679 Thanks for being here. 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:28.040 Yeah, thanks for having me. 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.560 So we're talking about Riviera today, a place with which 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:37.319 you're very familiar. You're passionate about the golf architecture there, 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:40.480 you've actually written about it before, written about the Tempole 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:43.160 at the very least, but also you have kind of 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:47.600 a professional golfer's perspective on this place as well. So 0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:50.120 what was the first time that you played Riviera and 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:52.520 what were your initial impressions. 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:58.680 I think it was probably twenty fourteen, maybe during the 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:03.079 It used to not an elevated event, so someone like 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:07.080 me used to get in. But I mean I had 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:09.640 heard a ton about it, had played a couple other 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.680 places in La and you know, had had been asked 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.560 the question, you know, what do you like more? 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:16.080 Which place do you think is better? 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.559 But I had never played riv so it was cool 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:22.520 to to kind of see it for the first time 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:24.520 in that sort of kind of setting. 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.000 During the I don't even know what it was called 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:30.440 back then. I think it was the Trust, yeah exactly. 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.240 It might have been something, it might have been something 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.640 before that, but anyways that I think that was maybe 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.800 twenty fourteen was the first time I saw. 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:41.559 It, Okay, And what what stood out to you the 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:43.000 first time you played the course. 0:13:45.320 --> 0:13:46.720 I mean when you walk up to the first t 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:49.360 it's a pretty cool uh you know, it's a pretty 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:51.400 cool setting kind of right there by the clubhouse, kind 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:52.160 of hitting down. 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.520 To that narrow you know, that narrow fairway on that 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:55.360 short part five. 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.959 But I think just like the thing that stood out 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:02.280 to me was just how many good holes there were 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:04.480 out there, and just you know, all the greens were 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:11.040 really cool. And just like anytime somebody asks, like, what's 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.960 your favorite course on the PGA tour, it's like a 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:18.280 pretty easy answer that you know, that's mine. But yeah, 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:22.120 just I think just like just a really really cool property. 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:23.840 The way it's routed and the way they used kind 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:26.000 of all the barancas and stuff like that to move 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:30.920 water around on on like not a super interesting site, 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:32.880 you know what I mean, But they did a really 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.280 cool job kind of getting you from one to eighteen 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.440 with a bunch of different looks. And I think, you know, 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:40.760 you do a bunch of different stuff out there. You 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.960 can hit driver a lot, you can hit different clubs. 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:46.040 You got a bunch of different looks into the greens, 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:48.400 and then you know, the greens are really cool too, 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:51.040 So I mean it's like you wish you played that 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.240 thirty times a year on the PGA Tour, you know. 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:59.360 Interestingly enough, the opinion that Riviera is one's favorite course 0:14:59.400 --> 0:15:03.760 on the PGA Tour is pretty common among PGA Tour players. 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:06.520 You're not when it comes to golf course architecture. You're 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.240 not the typical PGA Tour player. You have you have 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.880 kind of a keener interest in it than than maybe 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:15.040 most do. And yet there does seem to be a 0:15:15.120 --> 0:15:19.440 widely accepted opinion among tour pros that that Riviera is 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.840 one of the best courses. If you ask a lot 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:24.320 of different pros what their favorite course is, they often 0:15:24.400 --> 0:15:27.920 say Riviera. Do you have any any theories about why 0:15:27.960 --> 0:15:31.240 that is, especially given that Riviera has has some definite quirks, 0:15:31.280 --> 0:15:33.120 you know, as a green with a bunker in the 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:35.440 middle of it, and et cetera, et cetera. So why 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.400 is it the pros are so taken with the course, 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:37.840 do you think? 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:43.120 I mean, I think there's not a ton of great 0:15:43.160 --> 0:15:46.440 places we play, so I think it certainly sticks out that, 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.680 you know, how far ahead of everything else that it is. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.080 I think for anyone it's pretty easy to I mean, 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:56.760 you don't have to be like a super golf nerd 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:59.720 to to see how cool it is. It's just a 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.520 bunch are really really good golf holes. And I think 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.400 it is one of those places where it does kind 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:10.000 of reward doing the right stuff. You know, you drive 0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:11.840 it well or you hit it well. You know, you 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:15.160 can put good out there. But it is tricky, you know, 0:16:15.240 --> 0:16:18.320 on the greens. Being Poe, you always hear kind of 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.560 you know, a lot of three putts inside of ten 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:26.400 feet that week, you know, old school greens. But I 0:16:26.440 --> 0:16:29.840 think probably just just from the fact that we don't 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:32.680 play many golf courses, I would say, outside of a 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:35.400 handful or outside of the majors that are even kind 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:39.280 of in that realm of how good it is. And 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.120 you know, so that carries some weight for sure. 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:46.360 When you think about the different skill areas that a 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:51.440 course might might test. What comes to mind at Riviera 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.000 is there is there a kind of skill area that 0:16:54.000 --> 0:16:58.120 that course emphasizes more than the more than the average 0:16:58.200 --> 0:16:58.680 venue for. 0:16:58.680 --> 0:17:03.880 You, well, I think the kind of the green complexes 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:08.320 and just the way it's bunkered and kind of everything 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:09.240 around the greens. 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:12.800 You know, you got. 0:17:12.520 --> 0:17:14.880 To do the right stuff. You got to know where 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.240 to hit it. You got to hit your numbers, and 0:17:17.760 --> 0:17:21.800 you can get like severely penalized if you miss, you 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.520 know what I mean. So they're they're able to, you know, 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:27.359 get some of those pins right over. Some of the 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.120 bunkers are kind of tucked back into some corners that 0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.600 you know, have some big contours that that kind of 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:38.320 help defend it. So you know, you've got to be 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:41.800 doing the right stuff, executing what you're trying to do. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.399 And you know, I don't know exactly like what the 0:17:45.440 --> 0:17:48.800 winning score there typically is, but I mean when it's firm, 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.480 you know, and that's just kind of a crapshoot. I 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.400 guess year and in year out, but like when it's 0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:58.919 when it's firm, you know, it's it's like a legit test, 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:02.640 you know. And I think, you know, there's a there's 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.040 a handful of at least I haven't played it in 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:08.879 the event, you know, in a while. But you know, 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.480 there's some long holes and there's some short holes, and 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:13.920 there's a couple of long par threes and a couple 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:16.520 of short ones. It's kind of got everything, you know, 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:19.480 the par fives, it's like you got the really short 0:18:19.480 --> 0:18:22.080 one on one and seventeen can kind of play long. 0:18:22.240 --> 0:18:25.879 So it's just I think it's just a really good 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:28.840 test of kind of everything you got to drive it. Well, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.359 there's the you know, the trees kind of play a 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.320 factor when you kind of get offline. You know, you 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:38.360 got the tenthole that you know can kind of be diabolical, 0:18:38.440 --> 0:18:38.880 but you can. 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.520 Also make a two on it. So it's it's really just. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.479 You know, kind of got everything you want from a 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:49.320 from a golf course aspect, and they can kind of 0:18:49.359 --> 0:18:51.800 tune it up for the tournament to kind of play 0:18:51.800 --> 0:18:53.880 even better for professional golf, which is cool. 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.400 Yeah, when it gets windy, it I mean it can 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.000 be brutal. I remember a few years ago they actually 0:19:00.240 --> 0:19:03.639 stopped the event because you know, the greens were firm 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:05.600 and it was starting to blow a little bit and 0:19:05.960 --> 0:19:09.919 they got spooked. Yeah, so it's it can it can 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.720 definitely have teeth. It's an interesting course. I mean, it 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.080 is very balanced, as you're saying, it doesn't seem to 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:21.359 discriminate against any particular type of player, though though longer 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:25.320 hitters have tended to do pretty well. At the same time, 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:29.800 it's there are kind of weird results at Riviera historically, 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:32.920 you know, like it, Bubba Watson plays so well there, 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.520 Adam Scott plays so well there. Tiger Woods has never 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:40.000 won there. Jack Nicholas never won there, and I just 0:19:40.040 --> 0:19:41.840 I wonder if that just is sort of a set 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:44.760 of random results, or if there's a reason that Riviera 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:49.520 just seems to be different from other tour courses in 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:53.240 the way that it elevates some players and gives other 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:54.840 players fits. 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:55.200 Don't. 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:57.199 I don't know if you have a theory about that 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.320 or thoughts about that, but it's just something that has 0:19:59.520 --> 0:20:01.920 always saddled around in my head about Rivier. It's like, 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.359 why is it that this course seems to be different? 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:07.159 Yeah, I don't, I don't really know. 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:11.679 I'm surprised that Tiger's never won there, and Jack, obviously, 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.080 I want to say when I played, I had Andy 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.840 Martinez caddie for me a few few years out there, 0:20:19.000 --> 0:20:21.680 so I think Johnny Miller had probably won out there 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.480 because he'd always you know, tell me stories about him 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.479 hitting some cool shots into eighteen. And but you know, 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:33.199 Bubba and Adam Scott maybe like statistically maybe not the 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.520 best putters, but have also like wanted Augusta and won 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:40.840 there like you know, some crazy greens with some big, 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:45.840 big kind of slopes and contour kind of tilt on 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.719 him that you know, kind of maybe lets you use 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:51.560 your imagination more. And you know, you get so many 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.080 putts that are kind of outside the hole there that 0:20:56.320 --> 0:20:59.040 it's just kind of a crap shoot, you know what 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:00.639 I mean. You got to you got to use your 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:03.960 imagination a bit more than like, Hey, it's you know, inside. 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:06.080 Right all day and that's that's what you get. 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:09.920 I would say, on a lot of normal tour courses, right, 0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:11.399 you get a lot of putts that are kind of 0:21:11.400 --> 0:21:12.160 inside the hole. 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:15.879 But not not at Riviera. You know, you get a 0:21:15.920 --> 0:21:16.280 lot of. 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:19.600 Putts that are very uncomfortable and you know, if you miss, 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.720 they kind of get further away. And but yeah, I 0:21:22.960 --> 0:21:27.560 don't really know why, Uh, nothing really sticks out to 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:31.159 me why certain people have not been successful there that 0:21:31.240 --> 0:21:33.440 are kind of, you know, the best in the world. 0:21:33.520 --> 0:21:36.520 But yeah, I mean it could be the Kakula effect. 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:39.120 I don't I don't really know, but we'll we'll talk 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:41.760 about that later. But it's yeah, it's just something I've 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:45.000 I've always kind of kind of wondered about let's get 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:48.800 into some particular holes. So just to start off, is 0:21:48.840 --> 0:21:51.680 there a hole at Riviera that you think doesn't get 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:54.119 enough play? Is there is there an underrated hole that 0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:55.080 you often think about. 0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:01.000 I want to say, uh, like the seventh hole is 0:22:01.000 --> 0:22:07.399 pretty cool. I always had a you know, that green 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:10.440 was just kind of fell off in the right spots 0:22:10.480 --> 0:22:13.359 and the you know, the ground kind of got you 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:17.080 into some trouble, you know, on the t shot, so 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:19.879 that one kind of sticks out. You hear a lot 0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:22.320 about eight, obviously, and you hear a lot about six 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:27.639 and ten. There's a couple holes on the back like 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:34.440 maybe like thirteen or thirteen or something like that. That 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.080 that's a pretty good one that you know, I'm not 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:39.879 sure you hear a ton about. But I mean the 0:22:40.160 --> 0:22:42.600 cool thing about the course is like every hole is 0:22:42.720 --> 0:22:47.199 really really good and it's also an interesting course that 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:51.760 it's like nothing makes them like. 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:53.560 Outrageously hard, you know what I mean. 0:22:53.640 --> 0:22:56.679 It's not like you're, oh, you know, hazard lining the 0:22:56.760 --> 0:23:00.080 left side. I can't go there, you know, like the 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:02.280 water hazard in front of the green or something. It's 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:06.760 just where they can get the pins and you know 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:07.480 where you. 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:09.080 Have to be to kind of attack. 0:23:09.160 --> 0:23:13.560 Those places can kind of change from day to day 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.520 and wind and you know how firm the golf course 0:23:16.600 --> 0:23:20.080 is playing, So it's it just I think it has 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:23.080 kind of a lot of flexibility and you know, pretty versatile, 0:23:25.080 --> 0:23:27.320 you know, in what you have to do to score 0:23:27.359 --> 0:23:32.320 well and get balls close to the hole. But yeah, 0:23:32.359 --> 0:23:34.840 I would probably say seven is the one that comes 0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:38.119 to mind that I always thought was. It's not that 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:42.000 long either, you know what I mean, And it feels 0:23:42.000 --> 0:23:45.359 like you can kind of screw that hole up pretty easily. 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:48.240 Yeah, if you get in the wrong position around the green, 0:23:48.680 --> 0:23:52.040 you can you can get into some ridiculous spots. Yeah, 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:54.960 seven is is mine too. I think that's my favorite 0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:57.640 hole on the course that this is actually what I've 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.040 said traditionally, though there are other holes that would be 0:24:01.040 --> 0:24:03.760 in the running, but none that are sort of as 0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:08.000 unheralded as as seven. But it's this. It's this super 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:12.280 interesting middle length to even on the shorter end for pros, 0:24:12.400 --> 0:24:17.680 especially par four running along that baranka that that lines 0:24:18.000 --> 0:24:20.920 one side of the property, so that baranka is on 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:23.680 the right, and then there's this big fairway bunker kind 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:29.040 of cutting diagonally in from the left into into the fairway, 0:24:29.080 --> 0:24:32.119 and the fairway kind of bottlenecks, and so you have 0:24:32.160 --> 0:24:34.159 to make a choice about where you're gonna where you're 0:24:34.200 --> 0:24:37.719 gonna play. And then the green is is pretty small, 0:24:38.200 --> 0:24:42.520 pretty pushed up, lots of interesting contours, runoffs, places you 0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:45.240 really don't want to be around it, and and so 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:48.000 really it does help to kind of be as close 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:50.560 as possible on your approach because you want to be 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:53.399 able to get at the target. You don't want to 0:24:53.400 --> 0:24:55.960 miss anywhere around the green, but there is some risk 0:24:56.000 --> 0:24:58.560 in pushing your ball up. And it also helps to 0:24:58.560 --> 0:25:01.160 to kind of be a little it along the along 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:03.240 the right side. There are maybe some trees that should 0:25:03.240 --> 0:25:05.640 come out to really open up that play, but that's 0:25:05.680 --> 0:25:09.000 maybe another subject. But yeah, it's it's like a it's 0:25:09.000 --> 0:25:11.720 a super interesting uh part four, isn't it is? Is 0:25:11.720 --> 0:25:14.120 that a hole where you I mean, do you hit 0:25:14.200 --> 0:25:16.480 driver there? What? What do you what's your approach there? 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:20.000 I always hit driver, but I'm I'm on the you know, 0:25:20.200 --> 0:25:24.639 shorter side, so you definitely see people not hit driver. 0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:28.080 But it's kind of like the you know, it feels 0:25:28.160 --> 0:25:30.640 like the fair way over close to the bunker kind 0:25:30.640 --> 0:25:33.280 of kicks into the bunker a teeny bit, and like 0:25:33.320 --> 0:25:35.640 you said that, you know, you don't want to hug 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:38.080 it down the right and get blocked out by the trees. 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:41.000 You know, it's just got so much going on, and 0:25:41.040 --> 0:25:43.760 it's just like the fractional little things where it's like, oh, 0:25:43.800 --> 0:25:46.040 I'm just not in the right spot, or oh my 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:48.960 ball just kicked in the bunker. Oh that pins just 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:51.199 in the back left corner. I can't get at it 0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:57.040 from this angle. So I always thought that was just 0:25:57.080 --> 0:25:59.840 a super interesting hole. But you know, so many of 0:25:59.840 --> 0:26:02.240 the other ones out there, you know, can kind of 0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:03.680 fall in line with that as well. 0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:13.040 This episode is brought to you by the new Cobalt 0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:18.960 QZ six slope rangefinder. The QZ six represents a significant 0:26:19.080 --> 0:26:24.960 leap in golf rangefinder technology. Most rangefinders have fixed magnification, 0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:29.320 but the Cobalt QZ six has an optical zoom feature 0:26:29.640 --> 0:26:33.040 ranging from six x to twelve X. So when you're 0:26:33.080 --> 0:26:35.800 on the golf course with the QZ six, you can 0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:39.160 just see your target better. 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It's just the accumulation 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:13.400 of all these little different difficulties and subtleties that end 0:28:13.480 --> 0:28:16.560 up making it like a tricky hole where you can 0:28:16.600 --> 0:28:19.440 really get into into some trouble. But you can also 0:28:19.680 --> 0:28:21.440 you can also just play it in the most boring 0:28:21.480 --> 0:28:23.679 way possible. You can hit the fairway and hit it 0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:26.080 within five feet and make bloody. I mean, there's nothing 0:28:26.119 --> 0:28:29.200 preventing you from doing that. But but once you get 0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:32.560 a little bit off the beaten track, it's it's tricky. So, 0:28:32.600 --> 0:28:36.800 speaking of which you've you've talked publicly about about the 0:28:36.840 --> 0:28:40.600 tenth hole before. This is the hole that most people 0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:44.360 will be most familiar with at Riviera, the short to 0:28:44.480 --> 0:28:47.959 driveable part four with the big necklace bunker and the 0:28:48.000 --> 0:28:52.880 fairway and the and the green that slopes off severely 0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:55.680 from kind of right to left slash kind of back 0:28:55.720 --> 0:28:59.600 to frontish and you know the ring of bunkers around 0:28:59.600 --> 0:29:03.280 the green. So, uh, take me through your your approach 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:05.080 to to this whole. How do you how do you 0:29:05.120 --> 0:29:08.200 think through the way you attack number ten? 0:29:09.680 --> 0:29:11.840 I think the first handful of years I played it, 0:29:13.720 --> 0:29:17.920 I don't think you know, I don't like analytics and 0:29:18.040 --> 0:29:23.120 data certainly wasn't where it is today with you know, 0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:27.680 people kind of having hard numbers to to see like oh. 0:29:27.520 --> 0:29:30.400 Wow, it, you know, you definitely shouldn't lay up. 0:29:30.760 --> 0:29:34.080 So I think, you know, my first few years, I 0:29:34.120 --> 0:29:36.479 think you saw a lot more people kind of hit 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.440 a iron or whatever and got a full number in, 0:29:40.880 --> 0:29:43.800 and towards the last couple of years I played, I 0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:47.800 think it was like rarely did you ever see anyone 0:29:48.280 --> 0:29:52.200 not kind of push it up at least like, uh, 0:29:52.600 --> 0:29:55.720 you know, maybe you would occasionally see like an aggressive 0:29:55.840 --> 0:29:58.640 layup where it was like a three wood to you know, 0:29:58.760 --> 0:30:01.560 to the left side or something like that. So my 0:30:01.680 --> 0:30:04.760 first couple of years I definitely laid up most of 0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:09.080 the time because I kind of couldn't get there unless 0:30:09.080 --> 0:30:12.880 it was kind of like perfect conditions. I couldn't have 0:30:12.920 --> 0:30:16.040 any wind. And that bunker, you know, if you hit 0:30:16.040 --> 0:30:18.520 it in that bunker, that's short left, like I don't know, 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:21.280 fifty yards short left, Like that's not a great spot 0:30:21.400 --> 0:30:25.560 to be either. And if you I would say, I 0:30:25.600 --> 0:30:27.800 tend to kind of miss balls to the right, and 0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:31.000 if you miss anything right that's short of the green, 0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:35.640 you're basically chipping off the left side anyways, or you're 0:30:35.640 --> 0:30:37.160 going to hit it in the bunker short and then 0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:39.560 chip off into the left side. So I always kind 0:30:39.560 --> 0:30:41.320 of felt like, hey, if I could hit an iron 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:45.440 over to ninety yards, I can get this on the green. 0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:50.040 But that became, I think a little more challenging than 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:53.760 I thought, you know, and kind of I eventually saw 0:30:53.800 --> 0:30:56.320 the light of hey, I'm just going to blast one 0:30:56.360 --> 0:30:58.360 over there to the left and try and chip it 0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:00.560 on the green, and if I get lucky and keep 0:31:00.560 --> 0:31:04.360 one on, you know, in one, that's great. But I 0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:07.280 don't think I necessarily had a ton of success on 0:31:07.320 --> 0:31:09.640 that whole, you know, the handful of times that I've 0:31:09.640 --> 0:31:11.200 played at. 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:16.160 Well so have have distance games and kind of analytics 0:31:17.240 --> 0:31:20.440 ruined the tenth hole at Riviera? Have they made it 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:23.320 a less interesting hole in the in the past few years? 0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:23.800 Do you think? 0:31:25.280 --> 0:31:28.080 I think it's still super interesting because it's so severe, 0:31:29.640 --> 0:31:32.600 you know, it's just so penal If you kind of 0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:34.240 are in the wrong spot and you see a lot 0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:38.320 of really like crazy stuff around the greens, especially from 0:31:38.480 --> 0:31:39.840 you know, the best players in the world. 0:31:39.920 --> 0:31:41.920 You know, you see people putting it off. 0:31:41.760 --> 0:31:44.160 The green or chipping it, you know, into the back bunker, 0:31:44.520 --> 0:31:46.440 you know, and you're just kind of like, man, how 0:31:46.440 --> 0:31:48.520 can you not get that one close? But it's just 0:31:48.880 --> 0:31:52.240 the contours and the slopes around that green or are 0:31:52.360 --> 0:31:55.080 just so severe that I don't think it's less interesting, 0:31:55.400 --> 0:32:00.640 But you definitely don't see you know, you don't see 0:32:00.680 --> 0:32:04.360 really like the option, you know, the choice of somebody 0:32:04.440 --> 0:32:07.640 laying up, just because I think the numbers have like 0:32:07.920 --> 0:32:10.520 they're pretty black and white that it's kind of like, not, 0:32:11.120 --> 0:32:11.400 you know. 0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:12.520 This right play. 0:32:12.640 --> 0:32:15.640 Yeah, it's not the right play to not just blash 0:32:15.720 --> 0:32:16.960 driver over to the left. 0:32:17.040 --> 0:32:20.160 So yeah, I guess what continues to make it interesting 0:32:20.680 --> 0:32:23.680 is kind of what you're gesturing towards that there's there's 0:32:23.680 --> 0:32:28.120 still this amazing range of potential outcomes. Yeah, when you 0:32:28.200 --> 0:32:30.400 blast it up around the green, and so it's still 0:32:30.440 --> 0:32:33.840 incredibly entertaining to watch because you don't know what's going 0:32:33.880 --> 0:32:36.960 to happen, like you and you see kinds of shots 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:40.120 and kinds of outcomes that you you really don't see 0:32:40.160 --> 0:32:43.680 on any other hole on the PGA tour. But certainly 0:32:43.760 --> 0:32:47.160 the strategic aspect of the hole, the classic kind of 0:32:47.920 --> 0:32:50.560 Golden Age strategy of the hole, where where you're choosing 0:32:50.600 --> 0:32:54.080 between kind of hitting a conservative long iron a way 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:56.480 out to the left and giving yourself a nice little 0:32:56.480 --> 0:33:01.160 wedge approach versus being more aggressive that's no longer there 0:33:01.200 --> 0:33:03.680 for the pros. It might be there for me if 0:33:03.800 --> 0:33:07.120 if I were to to play the hole, but but 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:10.040 for the pros, it's it's, you know, it's kind of 0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:13.400 solved what what you should do. I think Justin Thomas 0:33:13.440 --> 0:33:15.520 may have been one of the one of the last 0:33:15.520 --> 0:33:19.080 holdouts because he's such a great wedge player. He just 0:33:19.600 --> 0:33:22.560 I think he figured until maybe last year or the 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:26.280 year before, like I can just rely on my wedge 0:33:26.360 --> 0:33:29.360 game here, but but everybody else. 0:33:29.960 --> 0:33:33.280 Pretty much, it just takes. It takes one bad I can. 0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:35.560 You know, I'm a good wedge player, you know, it takes. 0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:38.960 It takes one bad eighty yard ledge back. 0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:41.520 Right, you know flag and you kind of catch one 0:33:41.520 --> 0:33:43.520 a little low and it skips into the back bunker 0:33:43.520 --> 0:33:45.760 and plugs, and you're kind of like, okay, I can 0:33:45.800 --> 0:33:49.880 get there in one instead of two, uh, you know. 0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:53.240 And and I think, honestly, like there's just more build 0:33:53.320 --> 0:33:55.320 up and build up and build up in that front 0:33:55.480 --> 0:33:58.400 kind of right bunker that just makes the you know, 0:33:58.680 --> 0:34:02.600 makes the pitch kind of towards the back just more 0:34:02.640 --> 0:34:07.600 severe and more severe every year that it really just 0:34:07.680 --> 0:34:10.560 like you're kind of saying, it's just not really worth. 0:34:10.280 --> 0:34:12.520 It anymore to do anything. 0:34:12.800 --> 0:34:15.520 And I think most people kind of hit it far 0:34:15.640 --> 0:34:18.759 enough now too that they can kind of take that 0:34:19.080 --> 0:34:22.040 bunker that's fifty yards short or whatever out of play 0:34:22.120 --> 0:34:25.759 pretty pretty easily. But I mean, it still really is, 0:34:26.280 --> 0:34:28.319 you know, such a fun hole to watch because you 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:31.960 see two's and sevens and hole outs and long putts 0:34:31.960 --> 0:34:34.319 and people putting it into the bunker and spinning it 0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:37.920 off the green that you know, it's so severe that 0:34:37.960 --> 0:34:38.439 it's fun. 0:34:39.239 --> 0:34:42.360 That's the thing. It's it's you know, you might it 0:34:42.480 --> 0:34:45.000 might not hold up to the kind of classical strategic 0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:49.279 analysis anymore, but it's undeniably like that's the hole that 0:34:48.719 --> 0:34:51.040 you that you want to watch, yeah, when you're watching 0:34:51.080 --> 0:34:53.759 the tournament, And just to put a finer point on 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:57.960 the timeline here, you played the tournament twenty fifteen through 0:34:58.000 --> 0:35:02.560 twenty seventeen, and that was kind of when this was 0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:05.480 starting to change, this shift that we're talking about from 0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:09.160 like half the field laying up to nobody laying up. 0:35:09.800 --> 0:35:12.520 That was right at the beginning of that shift. And 0:35:12.560 --> 0:35:16.120 you can see the story on shot Tracker and Shotlink 0:35:16.760 --> 0:35:20.640 over over time, like there's a remarkable kind of push 0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:24.560 of all the dots to the area around the green, 0:35:25.080 --> 0:35:29.800 and that has accelerated since you've played the tournament for sure, 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:32.359 you know with ten, Like, I don't know if this 0:35:32.400 --> 0:35:33.960 was your action the first time you saw it, but 0:35:34.000 --> 0:35:38.799 the first time I saw that whole in person, the 0:35:38.840 --> 0:35:41.520 thing that stuck out to me was just the way 0:35:41.600 --> 0:35:44.560 that that green sits on that tilt. It almost looks 0:35:44.600 --> 0:35:46.719 like a skate park, like something you would see at 0:35:46.719 --> 0:35:49.359 a skate park as opposed to of golf course. Like 0:35:49.360 --> 0:35:53.400 it's really just so propped up there, and probably that 0:35:53.480 --> 0:35:56.000 kind of sand splash build up effect in the front 0:35:56.080 --> 0:35:58.680 right bunker that you're referring to has had an influence there. 0:35:59.080 --> 0:36:02.400 But it's just like, you know, sitting there on a big, 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:05.360 big tilt, and that's the whole. That's the game of 0:36:05.400 --> 0:36:07.719 the hole, right, is like trying to figure out how 0:36:07.719 --> 0:36:08.480 to navigate that. 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:09.160 Yeah? 0:36:09.800 --> 0:36:13.600 Yeah, all right, Well let's talk about some some other 0:36:13.640 --> 0:36:16.080 holes at at Riviera. Is is there another one? Like 0:36:16.239 --> 0:36:19.600 so we just talked about the kind of lost strategic 0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:22.400 aspects of ten. Is there a hole where where you 0:36:22.400 --> 0:36:26.399 think like some strategy is is still there where where 0:36:26.440 --> 0:36:30.240 you're where you're still kind of caught between caught between 0:36:30.400 --> 0:36:33.560 thought patterns and shot types and have to really make 0:36:33.760 --> 0:36:34.560 a tough decision. 0:36:36.600 --> 0:36:40.480 For me, eight was always kind of like, you know, 0:36:41.480 --> 0:36:43.399 do I go left or do I go right? 0:36:43.520 --> 0:36:46.279 I couldn't double fairway hole with the braaka cutting right 0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:47.120 up the middle right. 0:36:47.239 --> 0:36:50.040 Yeah, I you know there were again I kind of 0:36:51.000 --> 0:36:54.759 tend to lose it right a little more regularly, so 0:36:55.160 --> 0:36:57.400 I always was kind of scared to go down the 0:36:57.480 --> 0:37:01.360 left to hit it too are right into the branca 0:37:01.440 --> 0:37:04.080 and kind of lose my ball. But you know, there 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:07.040 were certain pins where it was super advantageous to be 0:37:07.200 --> 0:37:09.640 on that side. So I mean that was one that 0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:13.399 you know, I haven't seen it in the last couple 0:37:13.440 --> 0:37:17.799 of years. They obviously didn't play it last year, but 0:37:17.880 --> 0:37:21.600 I would assume you still get a pretty even split 0:37:21.719 --> 0:37:25.000 on that whole, just based on people's comfort level of 0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:26.839 you know, where they want to be and you know 0:37:26.880 --> 0:37:29.799 what they're trying to kind of, you know, do on 0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:34.600 their approach shot, so that you know that one kind 0:37:34.600 --> 0:37:35.520 of comes to mind. 0:37:39.160 --> 0:37:40.480 Yeah, I would. 0:37:40.239 --> 0:37:44.480 Say eight is, and that again is one where the 0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:47.480 shot tracker kind of tells a story. It's one of 0:37:47.520 --> 0:37:51.040 the few holes on the PGA too are in general 0:37:51.600 --> 0:37:55.960 where you see different players taking different approaches and where 0:37:56.000 --> 0:37:59.759 pin position can can change the way that people which 0:37:59.800 --> 0:38:02.160 fair way they choose. There's still kind of a split. 0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:06.319 There's not you know, a solved strategy yet, which is 0:38:06.719 --> 0:38:09.360 definitely a credit to the whole. I do wish that 0:38:09.800 --> 0:38:13.040 some of the reshaping went a little bit differently there 0:38:13.080 --> 0:38:16.560 that they did, but the the strategy of the hole is, 0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:20.440 you know, once they restored that double fairway, it was 0:38:20.680 --> 0:38:23.960 it was pretty awesome. Is there a is there a 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:26.600 hole that you that you'd like to see restored? I 0:38:26.600 --> 0:38:28.640 don't know if you've dug too much into the history 0:38:28.640 --> 0:38:32.080 of Raviera, but is there one where you're where you're 0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:34.680 you know, looking at the presentation of the hole currently 0:38:34.719 --> 0:38:37.200 and thinking, well, if they just made a tweak here 0:38:37.320 --> 0:38:39.200 or tweak there, and it would probably be a little 0:38:39.200 --> 0:38:39.960 bit cooler. 0:38:42.160 --> 0:38:46.759 For the par three is one that kind of jumps out. 0:38:46.840 --> 0:38:50.400 I don't know how different it is now versus you know, 0:38:50.440 --> 0:38:54.080 when they built it or whatnot, but it the way 0:38:54.080 --> 0:38:57.240 it plays right now, you can't, you know, you can't 0:38:57.320 --> 0:39:02.680 really work the ball in from the right side. I 0:39:02.680 --> 0:39:05.120 don't know if it's the grasses or the contours or 0:39:05.160 --> 0:39:08.040 shaping or whatnot. But you know, most people just kind 0:39:08.040 --> 0:39:10.799 of bang one long and you hope it stays on 0:39:10.840 --> 0:39:14.319 the back. So I you know that that seems to 0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:16.560 be like an easy one to jump to that It's like, 0:39:16.600 --> 0:39:19.799 I think there's probably some stuff they could do there 0:39:20.000 --> 0:39:23.279 to make it a little more interesting of a golf hole. 0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:31.560 And I'm trying to think there's there's probably some holes 0:39:32.480 --> 0:39:37.080 you know that if you added some length that would 0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:40.600 probably be more interesting. Like you know, if you could 0:39:40.640 --> 0:39:43.760 just snap your fingers and add fifty yards to number 0:39:43.760 --> 0:39:46.799 one or eighty r like you know whatever. You know, 0:39:46.840 --> 0:39:52.640 you'd probably see some different stuff going on there. But 0:39:52.680 --> 0:39:54.600 I mean they're still all really cool and you know, 0:39:54.680 --> 0:39:55.640 really fun to play. 0:39:56.080 --> 0:39:58.960 Oh yeah, of course, yeah. I mean the the bones 0:39:59.000 --> 0:40:01.960 are still there. But I mean one is for the pros. 0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:05.759 That's that's turned into a par four and maybe not 0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:08.200 that long of a par four, And it would be 0:40:08.840 --> 0:40:11.600 it would be interesting to see how those second shots 0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:13.960 would turn out if it were more kind of on 0:40:14.080 --> 0:40:18.480 the edge of the distance that that somebody could achieve 0:40:18.520 --> 0:40:22.440 in two shots. But yeah, going back to four. You 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:24.920 know that four has been a big subject of discussion 0:40:25.120 --> 0:40:28.759 recently because it's it's pretty clear that you know, nobody's 0:40:28.840 --> 0:40:31.960 trying that that run up shot from the right, yeah, 0:40:32.120 --> 0:40:34.800 you know, and it's a This is George Thomas's version 0:40:34.880 --> 0:40:38.480 of a ra dan hole. The whole idea is that 0:40:38.520 --> 0:40:40.520 you do have the option of going straight for the 0:40:40.560 --> 0:40:44.359 green over the kind of front left bunker, but there's 0:40:44.400 --> 0:40:47.440 a nice big ramp feeding in from the right that 0:40:47.560 --> 0:40:51.279 you're also supposed to be able to use. But it's 0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:54.680 become I don't know if it's become harder to use 0:40:54.760 --> 0:40:56.880 or if it was always hard to use, but certainly 0:40:56.960 --> 0:40:59.560 if you look at it now, it's it's just not 0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:02.360 a very reliable shot to send it out there, because 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:04.800 often it will get hung up, and if it doesn't 0:41:04.800 --> 0:41:07.000 get hung up, then it's probably going to run through 0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:10.719 the green. My theory is that, you know, this is 0:41:10.800 --> 0:41:15.520 the the combined effect of the cokuyu, which is a 0:41:15.640 --> 0:41:18.920 sticky grass in the in the run up to the green, 0:41:19.040 --> 0:41:21.960 so that you know, trying to use it as a 0:41:21.960 --> 0:41:23.960 as a ramp is a little bit tricky because you 0:41:24.000 --> 0:41:25.719 don't know if it's going to bounce or if it's 0:41:25.719 --> 0:41:28.719 going to stick, and then the green just being very 0:41:28.920 --> 0:41:32.160 very fast, right, So once you get onto the green, 0:41:32.560 --> 0:41:35.759 the ball is just going to keep running through, whereas 0:41:36.000 --> 0:41:39.320 back in the day, presumably the run up was faster 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:42.920 and the green was slower, which which would have been 0:41:43.200 --> 0:41:46.160 a better combination for trying trying to use that run 0:41:46.239 --> 0:41:49.960 up shot. So that's at least my kind of working hypothesis. 0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:53.160 But but I'm curious in general when it comes to 0:41:53.239 --> 0:41:58.239 the cocua at at Riviera is does it does it 0:41:58.320 --> 0:42:00.959 change your approach at all? Did did it factor into 0:42:01.000 --> 0:42:04.239 your game plan? Did you use like different wedges or 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:07.360 anything at rivi Era? What how did you experience that? 0:42:07.920 --> 0:42:12.040 Yeah, I never I never changed like equipment, you know 0:42:12.120 --> 0:42:14.799 for the grass, but you could definitely, you know, see 0:42:14.840 --> 0:42:17.520 it kind of playing a role in what was going on. 0:42:17.640 --> 0:42:21.440 And you know, pretty hard to bounce shots in. And 0:42:21.480 --> 0:42:23.560 there are definitely some holes that you know, you wish 0:42:23.600 --> 0:42:25.960 you would be able to cause there, at least for 0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:29.800 me again, I was I'm one of the shorter players. 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:32.239 You know, there are a few kind of like four 0:42:32.239 --> 0:42:34.839 and a half holes out there that you're like, man, 0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:38.160 I got a long iron in like you know, I 0:42:38.200 --> 0:42:42.000 remember twelve kind of being pretty long and two being 0:42:42.080 --> 0:42:44.799 really long, thinking like man, it would be nice to 0:42:44.800 --> 0:42:46.839 be able to, you know, scoot a shot in here 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:54.000 and four, and it's just not really you know, doesn't 0:42:54.040 --> 0:42:56.640 really allow that. And I also felt like the Cucuya 0:42:59.080 --> 0:43:02.160 kind of made driving it a teeny bit easier out 0:43:02.160 --> 0:43:04.600 there because it wouldn't kind of get away from you, 0:43:04.680 --> 0:43:09.440 and especially as you got into the rough, you know, 0:43:09.640 --> 0:43:12.160 you usually got pretty decent lies. 0:43:13.600 --> 0:43:14.439 And it kind of. 0:43:14.960 --> 0:43:17.560 Would almost be a little bit of a bumper and 0:43:17.640 --> 0:43:20.360 not allow you to kind of get into trouble. I 0:43:20.400 --> 0:43:24.040 always thought the place would be a little better of 0:43:24.080 --> 0:43:26.919 a test if it was kind of, you know, got 0:43:26.960 --> 0:43:30.000 the fairways like much wider and you know, let the 0:43:30.000 --> 0:43:33.040 ball kind of run into trouble, almost kind of like 0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:35.880 what they've done to Augusta in the last handful of years, 0:43:36.000 --> 0:43:38.480 kind of getting rid of that you know, second cut 0:43:38.520 --> 0:43:40.960 and letting balls kind of chase into. 0:43:40.719 --> 0:43:42.360 The trees a little deeper. 0:43:43.960 --> 0:43:47.880 But it's still the cucui You probably even if it 0:43:48.000 --> 0:43:51.160 was all fairway, you know, still might have a hard 0:43:51.160 --> 0:43:53.799 time doing some of that. So I don't know if 0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:56.520 they've ever wanted to change or thought about changing, but 0:43:56.560 --> 0:43:58.640 it seems like it's always kind of a discussion every 0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:00.439 year when when the turnam there. 0:44:01.000 --> 0:44:03.360 Yeah, my understanding is that it would be hard to 0:44:03.440 --> 0:44:09.480 change because Kakuya's is invasive and and really stubborn and 0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:12.160 and that kind of you know, once once it's there, 0:44:12.239 --> 0:44:15.800 it's yeah, it's kind of not leaving. But I'm sure 0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:18.960 that there's you know, if you look at for instance, 0:44:19.080 --> 0:44:22.080 l ACC North and bell Air, you know, the two 0:44:22.160 --> 0:44:25.000 other great George Thomas courses in LA I don't know 0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:29.520 how how recently you've played either of those, but the 0:44:29.520 --> 0:44:32.120 the Bermuda grass that they use in the fairways there 0:44:32.840 --> 0:44:38.120 is under the right conditions, very bouncy and and and 0:44:38.239 --> 0:44:43.000 very nice, you know, and in southern California recently kind 0:44:43.000 --> 0:44:46.719 of these new strains of Bermuda have proven pretty successful. 0:44:47.040 --> 0:44:50.000 So I just wonder how much Riviera would improve if 0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:52.759 they had the l A CEC grass or if they 0:44:52.760 --> 0:44:55.520 had the bel Air grass, if that would I don't know, 0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:58.799 is your experience of playing those other courses different from 0:44:58.840 --> 0:45:00.880 from Riviera and in that respect. 0:45:01.239 --> 0:45:03.400 Yeah, I mean I think kind of what I was 0:45:03.760 --> 0:45:06.840 getting to before was like, you know, you would you 0:45:06.840 --> 0:45:12.040 would see a lot of like a more penal side 0:45:12.120 --> 0:45:14.400 to hitting it in the rough or balls kind of 0:45:14.520 --> 0:45:18.080 chasing and running away versus you know, kind of getting 0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:21.000 that just like perfect teed up you know, shot in 0:45:21.040 --> 0:45:22.439 the rough where you know you. 0:45:22.400 --> 0:45:24.480 Still lose a little bit of predictability. 0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:27.200 But when you get that kind of jumper out of 0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:29.880 the rough or or the ball really is kind of 0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:34.120 bouncing into trouble, you know that that plays like a 0:45:34.120 --> 0:45:36.439 big role into a couple of those places where where 0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:39.120 the ball is just kind of flying away from where 0:45:39.120 --> 0:45:41.759 you want it to be versus kind of sticking where 0:45:41.800 --> 0:45:45.880 you want it to be. So yeah, I think you know, 0:45:45.920 --> 0:45:48.160 you kind of nailed it with with those those other 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:52.080 places can kind of tune it up to to get ripping, 0:45:52.440 --> 0:45:55.480 you know in the fairways where I mean you see that, 0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:59.879 you see that a teeny bit at Riviera, like when 0:45:59.880 --> 0:46:02.480 it gets really really firm. But I think it just 0:46:02.640 --> 0:46:07.600 takes such a more optimal you know run up to 0:46:07.640 --> 0:46:10.279 the event, plus you know, the four days of the 0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:13.600 tournament to to kind of get it to that spot. 0:46:15.360 --> 0:46:17.520 So yeah, I think it would be cooler if you 0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:18.960 if you had the Bermuda. 0:46:19.200 --> 0:46:21.359 Yeah, I mean to be clear, like they do about 0:46:21.400 --> 0:46:24.359 as good a job with coquas as you can probably do. 0:46:25.000 --> 0:46:26.960 You know, I grew up playing on cocuta because I 0:46:27.000 --> 0:46:29.839 grew up in Southern California, so very familiar with it, 0:46:30.080 --> 0:46:31.879 and what you're saying about the ball kind of being 0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:35.359 teed up is totally true about cocua. It's actually kind 0:46:35.400 --> 0:46:38.279 of funny to go from playing on that kind of 0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:44.040 grass to firm fescue because it feels like you have 0:46:44.640 --> 0:46:47.560 less of a margin for error all of a sudden 0:46:47.719 --> 0:46:51.320 with your especially with your iron shots, because the cocuie 0:46:51.760 --> 0:46:53.800 it makes it feel like you can really go after 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:57.080 the ball and there's almost like this sponge beneath there. Yeah, 0:46:57.120 --> 0:46:59.920 that will that will help you out a little bit. 0:47:00.560 --> 0:47:03.600 But uh yeah, I mean clearly with the ball on 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:07.560 the ground. LACC North bel Air Valley Club of Montecito, 0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:10.560 I don't know if you've played there recently, but the 0:47:11.160 --> 0:47:15.360 turf there is unbelievable and it's like a Santa Ana 0:47:15.880 --> 0:47:19.319 hybrid Bermuda grass and it's just so so good and 0:47:19.360 --> 0:47:22.120 you're like, Wow, if Southern California golf could be like 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:25.240 this all the time, then it would be absolutely amazing. 0:47:26.200 --> 0:47:28.160 And so yeah, I mean I kind of wonder what 0:47:28.280 --> 0:47:31.360 the future that is going to be. So I'm curious. 0:47:31.400 --> 0:47:33.560 You know, you've you've now gone through the process of 0:47:35.000 --> 0:47:38.200 helping to design and build your own golf course at 0:47:38.600 --> 0:47:42.640 the Tree Farm. You know, I remember when when you 0:47:42.760 --> 0:47:45.960 first came on my Radarzac in the kind of mid 0:47:46.000 --> 0:47:49.640 twenty tens as this this interesting PGA tour player who 0:47:49.960 --> 0:47:53.160 was also interested in golf course architecture and talked about 0:47:53.200 --> 0:47:56.920 golf course architecture in a compelling way. Now you're a 0:47:56.960 --> 0:48:00.000 lot more experienced right in the in the actual practice 0:48:00.960 --> 0:48:04.719 of building golf courses. Has that experience like changed your 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:08.560 perspective at all on courses like Riviera? Do you look 0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:11.200 at those courses differently now? Do you see different things 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:15.000 than you used to before you actually went through the 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:17.440 Tree Farm process. 0:48:18.520 --> 0:48:21.319 Maybe a little bit just of you know, oh, kind 0:48:21.320 --> 0:48:26.840 of understanding from a construction standpoint of why they would 0:48:27.120 --> 0:48:29.759 maybe do certain things. I feel like I had a 0:48:29.960 --> 0:48:35.080 decent idea of you know, you know, water moving and 0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:39.000 kind of getting something from here to here, and. 0:48:38.120 --> 0:48:39.760 Why they would do certain things. 0:48:39.840 --> 0:48:42.560 But then you know, actually doing it and having someone 0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:48.320 like Kai, you know, be super helpful and really explaining 0:48:48.400 --> 0:48:50.320 why you don't want to do that here. 0:48:50.440 --> 0:48:53.600 And this is Kai goldby by the way, who was 0:48:53.640 --> 0:48:58.640 the construction head at the Tree Farm and definitely one 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:02.560 of the industries leading instructuring gurus. Guy knows just knows 0:49:02.560 --> 0:49:04.680 what he's doing that it comes to building golf courses. 0:49:05.000 --> 0:49:07.880 Yeah, so I think maybe just kind of a finer 0:49:09.160 --> 0:49:16.239 understanding of why certain things would be done, why they 0:49:16.239 --> 0:49:18.399 would put a bunker here, not put a bunker here. 0:49:19.239 --> 0:49:21.799 You know, why this slope on the green might do this. 0:49:23.480 --> 0:49:26.880 You know, from from my understanding from doing it and 0:49:27.320 --> 0:49:30.640 working with those guys, they're always kind of thinking about 0:49:31.000 --> 0:49:34.000 like where the water's going. So I don't know if 0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:37.400 I necessarily had that deep of an understanding of it initially. 0:49:38.800 --> 0:49:40.919 I feel like I kind of had an idea of 0:49:41.840 --> 0:49:44.880 some of that stuff before, but it definitely, you know, 0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:47.319 gets your kind of brain spinning, you know, seeing some 0:49:47.360 --> 0:49:51.800 really cool places after, you know, building the tree farm, 0:49:52.040 --> 0:49:54.479 and you know kind of going like wow, these guys 0:49:54.480 --> 0:49:57.200 were like super super with it. You know, they they 0:49:57.239 --> 0:50:00.719 definitely knew what they were doing even back then, So 0:50:01.080 --> 0:50:03.480 it's definitely cool to see those those great places. 0:50:04.040 --> 0:50:06.399 Yeah, towards the beginning of our conversation here, you did 0:50:06.520 --> 0:50:09.920 mention that that the way that water moves around Riviera 0:50:10.200 --> 0:50:13.520 Is is something that stands out to you. Are there any 0:50:13.560 --> 0:50:17.400 details there that that that you think of with Riviera, 0:50:17.600 --> 0:50:21.000 like what how how the drainage works. Do you have 0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:23.600 you noticed anything about that on the course. 0:50:24.600 --> 0:50:26.960 Well, obviously you have like all the all the barankas 0:50:27.040 --> 0:50:30.839 kind of you know throughout the golf course you. 0:50:30.760 --> 0:50:35.560 Know, on almost like almost the entire place. You know, 0:50:35.840 --> 0:50:39.560 you kind of see it. And I only played it. 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:42.320 One of the years i played it, there was crazy, 0:50:42.400 --> 0:50:45.319 crazy storms and you kind of actually got to see it, 0:50:45.719 --> 0:50:50.520 you know, working where you really see kind of water 0:50:50.840 --> 0:50:53.400 running through there. Usually they're just kind of dry and 0:50:53.560 --> 0:50:56.000 you know, sandy and have grasses in them. 0:50:56.000 --> 0:50:59.800 But it's pretty kind of remarkable. 0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:04.120 It's to think that back then, you know, people were 0:51:04.360 --> 0:51:08.120 thinking that much about moving water, but they obviously they 0:51:08.239 --> 0:51:13.200 knew a lot. Not not thinking that they weren't smart 0:51:13.280 --> 0:51:17.919 or anything, they obviously knew what they were doing. So yeah, 0:51:18.320 --> 0:51:21.120 I want to say, I think I might have like 0:51:21.200 --> 0:51:24.480 a book on it, so I kind of read, you know, 0:51:24.600 --> 0:51:28.520 read about them building those for that kind of specific purpose, 0:51:28.600 --> 0:51:30.800 and it is cool to kind of see it in action. 0:51:31.640 --> 0:51:34.600 It's almost like a you know, the baranka on that 0:51:34.680 --> 0:51:37.080 one side of the property is sort of the main 0:51:38.080 --> 0:51:41.160 river in the system, and then you have all these 0:51:41.160 --> 0:51:45.200 different tributaries, yeah, winding through the holes and leading to 0:51:45.360 --> 0:51:49.120 that main baranca, which is a very natural way to 0:51:49.120 --> 0:51:52.080 do drain This is the way that drainage naturally happens 0:51:52.120 --> 0:51:54.400 on a landscape because the water kind of carves these 0:51:54.480 --> 0:51:57.759 little areas. And so maybe some of that was intact, 0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:01.239 was it was just kept there by to allow for 0:52:01.280 --> 0:52:05.280 the natural drainage, but clearly some of it was also built, 0:52:05.520 --> 0:52:07.920 and there was you know, there was an awareness that 0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:10.400 this is how it should function. It the water should 0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:13.520 be moving across the holes down to this main baranca 0:52:13.640 --> 0:52:16.080 system and then the brink eventually you know, goes down 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:19.799 through the canyon and feeds out into the ocean. And 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:23.040 so it's it's very sensible the way it works. But yeah, 0:52:23.040 --> 0:52:24.960 as you say that, I think I remember that year 0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:27.440 when when images were circulating of the kind of of 0:52:27.480 --> 0:52:30.279 the water moving through the golf course, and it's it's 0:52:30.280 --> 0:52:31.600 pretty cool to see that, isn't it. 0:52:32.200 --> 0:52:32.480 Yeah. 0:52:32.600 --> 0:52:36.239 Yeah, Like I just remember being out there because we 0:52:36.239 --> 0:52:40.400 were finishing one of the rounds and then we you know, 0:52:40.960 --> 0:52:43.440 got called off and had to come back the next morning. 0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:45.560 But like being out there that one day where it 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:49.200 was like dumping and thinking like, man, how are they 0:52:49.239 --> 0:52:52.799 going to play like the next day, and then going 0:52:52.800 --> 0:52:54.560 out there and being like I can't believe there's not 0:52:55.480 --> 0:52:57.799 I can't believe, like we're golfing today and I can't 0:52:57.800 --> 0:53:01.560 believe the golf course is like dry, you know, I can't. 0:53:01.640 --> 0:53:04.920 I can't believe we're not just playing out of puddles everywhere, 0:53:04.960 --> 0:53:08.840 and being pretty amazed that, you know, seeing it the 0:53:08.920 --> 0:53:12.080 day before and kind of seeing everything run towards where 0:53:12.080 --> 0:53:14.600 they're supposed to go and and like you say, get 0:53:14.640 --> 0:53:18.400 to that kind of like main that that main Baranca 0:53:18.440 --> 0:53:20.080 where it kind of gets all taken away. 0:53:20.160 --> 0:53:22.600 But uh yeah, pretty. 0:53:22.480 --> 0:53:27.239 Pretty cool and definitely something that you know, always kind 0:53:27.239 --> 0:53:30.040 of stuck with me, you know, and and Kai kind 0:53:30.040 --> 0:53:33.520 of always talking about water moving and you know, surface 0:53:33.600 --> 0:53:37.560 draining and and everything like that is pretty pretty neat. 0:53:38.040 --> 0:53:44.200 Yeah, last question related to Riviera for you. You have 0:53:44.239 --> 0:53:48.640 ten rounds to split between Riviera and the other two 0:53:48.719 --> 0:53:52.759 big Thomas courses in l A, l ACC North and 0:53:52.800 --> 0:53:55.360 bel Air. How are you splitting those rounds? 0:53:56.360 --> 0:54:00.200 I've never played bel Air, h okay, but I've I've played. 0:54:00.200 --> 0:54:03.719 L A Okay well, maybe just between l A and 0:54:03.719 --> 0:54:04.320 and Riviera. 0:54:05.200 --> 0:54:08.640 Yeah, I mean, I think honestly both of them. There 0:54:08.680 --> 0:54:14.760 there's a there's very few of these like debates of 0:54:14.760 --> 0:54:18.919 of places that have that great of you know, two 0:54:18.960 --> 0:54:23.000 golf courses when you're talking like National and Shinnacock and 0:54:23.280 --> 0:54:29.839 riv and l A, and there's very few of them 0:54:29.840 --> 0:54:33.839 that I think are you know, I don't really care 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:36.480 what somebody else says. I can kind of get down 0:54:36.560 --> 0:54:40.600 with h with their opinion. I think both of them 0:54:40.640 --> 0:54:45.600 are like really really good. And I would probably go 0:54:45.800 --> 0:54:52.799 like six four l A just because I think the 0:54:52.880 --> 0:54:56.040 way the golf course plays with the grasses and and 0:54:56.480 --> 0:54:58.880 the times I've played it, it's been just like so firm, 0:54:58.920 --> 0:55:01.479 and you know, you really you really have to think 0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:04.120 about where you're going to be, and just I think 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:08.200 the green complexes from a shape standpoint are are maybe 0:55:08.239 --> 0:55:12.960 a little more kind of weird and wild and you 0:55:13.080 --> 0:55:18.760 see just some some different stuff. So I would probably 0:55:18.800 --> 0:55:22.920 go six four l A c C. But I know 0:55:23.120 --> 0:55:24.840 like tons of people that are like I would go 0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:27.520 seven three RIV And I'm kind of like, oh, you know, 0:55:27.760 --> 0:55:33.520 I totally I can totally see that, And I think 0:55:33.600 --> 0:55:38.200 just the aesthetic maybe at LACC, the kind of rugged, 0:55:38.920 --> 0:55:42.840 you know, just all the little details, is a little 0:55:42.880 --> 0:55:49.200 more thoughtful and kind of like my style versus RIVS. 0:55:49.239 --> 0:55:54.480 Maybe like a little more of corporate factories not the 0:55:54.560 --> 0:55:55.080 right like. 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:59.440 Word, but you know, I mean it's a little it's just. 0:55:59.440 --> 0:56:01.560 A little bit of a different vibe. So I think 0:56:01.600 --> 0:56:04.320 that plays into it. But just like from. 0:56:04.160 --> 0:56:07.160 Golf hole to golf hole, a golf hole to golf hole. 0:56:07.040 --> 0:56:12.640 One through eighteen, I would probably say RIVS better, but 0:56:12.760 --> 0:56:14.640 I enjoy LACC a little more. 0:56:15.480 --> 0:56:17.759 That That's kind of a weird take, but you know 0:56:17.960 --> 0:56:18.560 that's my take. 0:56:18.840 --> 0:56:21.680 I no, I agree with one hundred percent of what 0:56:21.719 --> 0:56:24.800 you just said, because LACC, I mean, the big difference 0:56:24.840 --> 0:56:27.920 here is that la CC North went through a recent 0:56:28.080 --> 0:56:32.319 and very good restoration. Yeah, and Riviera just has I 0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:34.400 mean Corn Crenshaw worked there in the mid nineties, but 0:56:34.920 --> 0:56:36.879 there was only so much that I think they were 0:56:36.920 --> 0:56:41.720 allowed to do, and so la CC North is closer 0:56:41.719 --> 0:56:44.400 to what it what it needs to be, right, Yeah, 0:56:44.560 --> 0:56:48.239 Riviera is Riviera is not really there in that process. 0:56:48.400 --> 0:56:51.880 But the holes at Riviera are so good. The design 0:56:52.640 --> 0:56:55.680 is probably George Thomas's best design, and maybe maybe one 0:56:55.719 --> 0:57:00.480 of like top three, top five Golden Age designs period, Like, 0:57:00.520 --> 0:57:03.640 it's so brilliant, but it's just not you know, L A. C. 0:57:03.840 --> 0:57:07.200 C Has all that texture, right, they brought it back. Yeah, yeah, 0:57:07.320 --> 0:57:10.279 they brought back all that wonderful like California feel, and 0:57:10.320 --> 0:57:12.560 that's not there at Riviera, right yeah, and so it's 0:57:12.600 --> 0:57:17.439 just it's different that way, right Yeah, yeah, cool. All right, Well, 0:57:18.320 --> 0:57:20.840 thank you so much for coming on the Podzac. It's 0:57:20.880 --> 0:57:23.720 it's been very fun to talk to you about Riviera. 0:57:24.640 --> 0:57:26.919 Do you have any Do you have any plans coming 0:57:26.960 --> 0:57:28.760 up that people should be aware of. Are you seeing 0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:31.680 any cool golf courses coming up? Are you anything people 0:57:31.680 --> 0:57:32.560 should pay attention to. 0:57:33.160 --> 0:57:36.920 Heading down to South America to Argentina, going to see 0:57:36.920 --> 0:57:40.240 the Jockey Club for the first time, so I'm pretty 0:57:40.240 --> 0:57:44.600 excited about that. And then I don't know, haven't been 0:57:44.640 --> 0:57:47.200 to the Tree Farm in a few months, so kind 0:57:47.200 --> 0:57:49.280 of itching to get back there and you know, play 0:57:49.320 --> 0:57:51.400 some play some rounds out there. 0:57:51.440 --> 0:57:55.360 But Masters week is kind of approaching, so it's yeah, 0:57:55.640 --> 0:57:57.880 that's a big, big week for all those Ache and 0:57:57.960 --> 0:57:59.400 area courses exactly. 0:58:00.160 --> 0:58:00.400 Yeah. 0:58:00.440 --> 0:58:03.720 But other than that, kind of just it's been crazy 0:58:03.720 --> 0:58:06.680 weather in Utah, Like you know, the golf courses have 0:58:06.720 --> 0:58:09.880 been open all winter, so it's been kind of easy 0:58:09.920 --> 0:58:11.720 to stay here. And you know, even though it's a 0:58:11.720 --> 0:58:14.919 little chilly Sundays, it's still you know, five minutes away 0:58:15.000 --> 0:58:17.360 right down the street to go play with some friends. 0:58:17.400 --> 0:58:21.320 So nothing major on the horizon for me. 0:58:22.320 --> 0:58:23.919 Very cool, all right, Thanks for coming on, Zach. 0:58:24.160 --> 0:58:24.720 Yeah. Thanks. 0:58:31.400 --> 0:58:35.280 This episode of Designing Golf was produced by Will Balsam. 0:58:35.680 --> 0:58:39.800 Thank you Will. If you like these kinds of deep 0:58:39.880 --> 0:58:43.400 dives into particular golf courses, then make sure to join 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:46.360 Frida Egg Golf Club go to the Frida Egg dot 0:58:46.360 --> 0:58:49.440 com slash membership. One of the things that we offer 0:58:49.600 --> 0:58:54.360 in FEGC is weekly course profiles, so written pieces on 0:58:54.440 --> 0:58:58.200 golf courses that we think are interesting, along with great 0:58:58.240 --> 0:59:02.120 photos taken by our team here at Friday Golf. So 0:59:02.320 --> 0:59:04.920 FUGC is a lot of fun. It's a great community 0:59:05.000 --> 0:59:08.080 that we're building of avid golfers in there, so come 0:59:08.160 --> 0:59:10.720 join us. Thank you for listening, and we'll be back 0:59:10.720 --> 0:59:21.920 again soon with another episode.