WEBVTT - Yeah, Tyra's a Villain | BONUS Pt. 2 0:00:00.520 --> 0:00:02.760 Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.560 your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.520 season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.879 the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:15.320 stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.320 want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty 0:00:18.400 --> 0:00:21.840 Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.279 Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of, 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.240 and a few you didn't like former A and TM 0:00:27.320 --> 0:00:32.080 judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly 0:00:32.080 --> 0:00:35.159 of the long running TV series through the untold stories 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.519 of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:43.640 opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation, 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:47.560 shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:51.919 docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:57.160 Check your local TV provider schedule. Want to be on 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:09.920 some you want to be on the show. Welcome to 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:18.600 the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm Richard Armstrong. Hey, y'all, 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.760 we're back with part two of this bonus episode. I'm 0:01:21.760 --> 0:01:23.840 with my editor Monik la Board and we're doing a 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:27.360 deep dive on the new ANTM Netflix Dock. We left 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:31.040 off talking about one of the most disturbing revelations in 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:34.480 the docu series, What Happened to Shandy Sullivan on A 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:39.120 and TM Cycle two. In the documentary, Shandy describes an 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:42.640 incident on set where producers invited over some guys to 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:45.920 the model house. They were drinking and Shandy was really 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:48.520 drunk and she and one of the guys ended up 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:52.760 having a sexual encounter, but Shandy was too drunk to consent, 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:57.520 and without consent, that is sexual assault. A and TM 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:00.680 filmed the whole thing, including the assault, and aired it 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.080 and all of these years later, when Tyra and Kinmock 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:06.920 were asked about what happened to Shandy on the docuseries, 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:13.359 they refuse to take accountability. In fact, kin Mock justified it, well, 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:17.640 what about when Kinmock said they kept filming because it 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:19.040 was a documentary. 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:25.480 Oh my god, bull shit, Like it is not a documentary. 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:29.399 Even documentaries are produced, they know what they're gonna get 0:02:29.440 --> 0:02:31.400 and they edit it to look a certain way like 0:02:31.720 --> 0:02:35.040 it is okay, we know that it is not a documentary. 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.440 People were typecast, people were told who to be, and 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:43.480 the scenes that we saw, the reactions that we saw 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:45.880 at that was all set up and planned. Like calling 0:02:45.919 --> 0:02:51.160 in a documentary. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah, 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:51.800 what do you think? 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.520 Oh my god. I was like, we literally know, like 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:57.560 we know that this thing. If your idea of a 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.160 documentary is we show up and document whatever's happen, right, I'm. 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.480 Like, no, we know for sure. 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.720 We had producers on record saying to us, yeah, we 0:03:06.760 --> 0:03:10.560 stirred the pot. Yeah, we created drama. Yeah, we did 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:12.240 all these things and stuff for him to sort of 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:16.040 be like they intervened. I mean they intervened when the 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:18.880 person that they didn't think that the person who won 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.720 All Stars, Angelie was suitable to be on the show, 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:24.800 they intervened and kicked her off the show in a retap. 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.640 But you know what I mean, they intervened. They intervened 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:30.280 a lot, Like they intervened a lot to cause certain 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:33.600 situations that would play great for the camera. They intervened 0:03:33.680 --> 0:03:36.440 a lot. And so for you to take this road 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:38.920 of like oh everybody knew when they came on the 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.800 show that we're just going to film what happens when 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:47.320 we're talking about a girl getting literally assaulted, yep, when 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:52.400 you are literally filming a blackout, drunk woman being sexually assaulted, 0:03:52.640 --> 0:03:54.760 Like this is what we're talking about. What you didn't 0:03:54.800 --> 0:03:58.560 want to intervene, not like a squabble between two contestants, 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.240 you know. And that for me, again, that's the sort 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:04.920 of thing that you say we were wrong, Like that's 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:06.560 all this I don't want to hear about, Like, oh, 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.760 it's a documentary and that's just something you say, you 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:11.640 know what, we were wrong and we should have handled 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:15.280 that differently, and you know. But I don't know why 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:19.719 I get shot every time I hear lack of accountability 0:04:19.760 --> 0:04:22.720 from Kim Mock and Tyre, I think that's just they 0:04:22.720 --> 0:04:25.360 don't feel bad. That's what we're supposed to take away 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:27.760 from this. They don't feel that bad about this. Mm hmm. 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:30.719 Yeah, it's interesting. The only time we saw Kim Mock 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:34.680 take accountability was on the Dead Body shoot, which was 0:04:34.800 --> 0:04:38.360 disturbing to see, but yeah, he gave a pretty good 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.440 example of accountability. He was like, that was wrong. That 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.880 was my call and that was the wrong call. And 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.839 we should not have done that period and that it's like, 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.360 why is that so hard to say? Can we say 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:53.760 that more for some of this other stuff that happened. 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.400 Maybe it's that that isn't legally implicating it all. It's 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.800 just unsavory and that's why he was able to say 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:02.400 it and take accountability for that one. But I would 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:04.640 have liked to see a lot more of that from 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:05.520 ken Bock and Tyra. 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:08.440 Absolutely, And there was a lot of stuff that the 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:12.360 doc didn't get into that we talked about, right, So 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.240 watching the Psachi series we had all this context. One 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:18.200 of those things for me, and it's what we're talking 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:22.000 about now, was the amount of manipulation that happened behind 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:27.800 the scenes, whether that was manipulating scenes, creating drama, manipulating 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:31.520 who actually won, setting up challenges so certain people did 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.600 really well and others didn't. That for me was something 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:38.360 they didn't get into as much that we certainly talked about. 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:40.720 Another thing that was big for us we did two 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:45.760 whole episodes the Psyche Vowels didn't really talk about the 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.440 Psyche valves, which you know, this was a part of 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.120 the process where everybody went through. You were told it 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.159 was for your own safety, but actually they were using 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.320 it also to produce the show. One thing for me 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:01.320 that Kimmock said, though, I was like, wait, that's it, 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.600 You're admitting the thing. He said that a lot of 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.200 the young women who came on the show had troubled 0:06:08.200 --> 0:06:11.120 backgrounds or didn't have a great family life, and they 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:13.720 didn't get validation at home, and so they came to 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:19.279 A and TM seeking that validation. And the troubled childhood 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:24.839 or difficult upbringing pattern is something we also uncovered when 0:06:24.880 --> 0:06:25.960 recording for the podcast. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.080 I was surprised that they didn't get into that at all, 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:33.719 but it wasn't an accident that this show knew about 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.600 all of these women's deep traumas and then brought them 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:41.560 back up at really strikingly convenient times. So, like, it 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.320 was really strange to see Ken Mock acknowledge that some 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.960 of these girls had come on the show from difficult 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:53.280 backgrounds having issues at home, because we had talked about like, 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:55.719 what is the pattern there? Why are we seeing this 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:57.920 pattern where so many of these women have a really 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.840 traumatic background, And the pattern is that they were all 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:04.440 selected to be on the show, Like those were the contestants, 0:07:04.600 --> 0:07:07.200 you picked it wasn't an accident that they all had 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:11.000 traumatic backgrounds and that was used against them to break 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:15.640 them down while the cameras were on. So it felt 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:19.840 really tone deaf that he said that, not acknowledging how 0:07:20.680 --> 0:07:24.160 that information got translated to the producers and the fact 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.280 that those particular women were chosen for the show. And 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.840 then I just think I've really enjoyed our episodes about 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.440 psyche vwels. That was really illuminating for me about how 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:37.960 reality TV shows work period, but especially how psyche vwls 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:41.520 can be misused and abused on shows like this. So 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.960 I think they were missing that for sure. Another thing 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:48.640 that we brought up on our show that they didn't 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:52.120 get into in the Netflix dock was the contracts that 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:54.679 these I mean a lot of times girls were signing, 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:59.360 these teenagers were signing and being told to sign in 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.960 the moment in the room and not getting the chance 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:04.800 to look it over, also not really understanding what they 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:08.400 were signing. And we got a copy of the contract 0:08:08.600 --> 0:08:10.960 went through it, talked about it on an episode of 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.920 the podcast, but that was that was completely missing from 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:14.600 the Netflix stock. 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:17.080 Yeah, I was actually surprised by that because it's one 0:08:17.080 --> 0:08:19.640 of the things that I think you hear the models 0:08:20.120 --> 0:08:22.840 criticize the show for the most was just how exploited 0:08:22.880 --> 0:08:25.080 of their contracts were and how they got nothing out 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.080 of being on the show. You know, we heard from 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.440 models who told us that like they couldn't even they 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:32.160 couldn't make any money from it. So like they couldn't 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:35.000 even start a YouTube channel, you know, a paid channel 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:37.160 that where they're talking about their experience on ATM. They 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.360 couldn't write a book, they couldn't do anything, and this 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.920 is all in the contract. Meanwhile, Tyra was getting really rich. 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:45.679 And I think that that I actually think that that 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.880 is one of the biggest missing perspectives on this doc. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.880 That it wasn't just like, oh, you were on the 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.440 show and you were humiliated a bit, right, Like, I 0:08:55.440 --> 0:08:57.959 don't even know if people fully understand they didn't get 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.480 compensated at all, Like they had to buy their own food. 0:09:01.480 --> 0:09:02.960 That actually shocked to be when we found it. When 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.559 we first started working on this, I'd heard some other 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.600 models say they had a per dim a day, right, 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.240 but I still didn't. It didn't connect to me that 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:14.320 they had to actually you set per dim to feed themselves, 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:15.959 because I'm just thinking, like if you're on a show, 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.760 they feed you, right, like, at the very least you're 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.280 gonna get three meals a day, because like, wouldn't they 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:24.959 want you to like eat, But like we come to 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:28.000 find out, know they want you starving and mad. That's 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:29.920 something that like the Netflix stock doesn't get into. And 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.400 I think that really just further drives home the exploitation 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:37.000 they experienced because knowing even in the short term, your 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.439 basic needs were not even met on this show. Meanwhile, 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.320 you're humiliating yourself so tire can make millions. 0:09:43.520 --> 0:09:47.040 Yeah, and there's that like agreement that we now kind 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:50.480 of audiences now understand with people who go on reality 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.240 TV shows that like, yeah, you're gonna be humiliated, probably 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:56.920 by the production team, regardless of what show it is, 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.839 but you will get if you want it, a lot 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.280 of Instagram followers depending on how you do on the 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:06.160 show and how you market yourself, like you can become 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:10.280 an Internet celebrity afterwards. But this is a time when 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.560 that was not an option. So not only were they 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:18.440 paid like pennies to appear basically on the show, they 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:23.400 didn't get to build that brand afterwards at all. So 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.719 it's just like such an interesting moment in time they 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.360 were left out to dry. They did have a scene 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:33.760 with Danny Evans talking about launching her modeling career afterwards 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:38.600 and being explicitly told you're not getting gigs because you 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:42.160 were on A ANDTM and people don't want to work 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.679 with you because of that. It looks bad. Basically, what 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.960 did you think about what she said on the doc? 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:51.040 That was new information that Tyra had approached her years 0:10:51.080 --> 0:10:54.600 later and told her that she was aware of that stigma. 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:56.400 And then she didn't do anything for her. 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:57.240 I didn't know that. 0:10:57.360 --> 0:10:59.920 I didn't know that either. Well, one thing, I think 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:03.320 it's interesting about the relationship between Tyra and Danny Evans. 0:11:03.320 --> 0:11:07.280 We're talking about how Tyra rarely apologizes to anybody, Like 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.680 she'll apologize for like to the audience, but not to 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:12.080 a person. It was like a half assed apology. It 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.160 was like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. But Danny 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.079 Evans's the gap, telling Danny Evans to get her gap 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.959 closed and ultimately closing it a bit. That's one of 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:22.520 the things that Tyra has addressed in the past, and 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:29.120 so to hear Danny say that, like, yeah, Tyra admitted 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:31.760 to just sort of leaving me out to Dry. I 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:34.760 think it sort of made me wonder if Tyra like 0:11:34.840 --> 0:11:39.160 really resented Danny for some reason because she turned her 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:41.000 down on getting the Gap club because she didn't take 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.120 her advice explicitly. Did she just sort of hang her 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.160 out to dry? If that's just what Tyra did with 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:48.200 all the girls and Danny just so happened to like 0:11:48.600 --> 0:11:50.800 run into her and she was feeling truthful that day. 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.800 I don't know, but yeah, it did make me think about, 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:58.120 like there's something there's a dynamic happening between Tyron and 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:01.640 Danny where Tyre did feel the need to address what 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:05.760 she did to her, but also didn't feel the need 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:07.360 to help her, which is interesting. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:09.599 Yeah, that was a big point that we made in 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.160 the podcast, which is that. 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:15.040 A lot of these. 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.240 Women after coming on the show weren't actually welcomed into 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:21.520 the fashion industry. It wasn't actually a credential that they 0:12:21.679 --> 0:12:24.440 had won antm. It was the opposite. It was like 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.679 a stain because it was seen as like taki to have, 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:30.560 you know, gone on a reality TV show and with 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:35.320 someone like Danny, I mean seeing that she had got 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:38.280 herself after the show into an agency where she was 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:42.160 trying auditioning and then just looking at some of her 0:12:42.160 --> 0:12:46.160 photos after the show from her career, even looking at 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:50.040 her now, you're like, oh, you actually could have made it. 0:12:50.360 --> 0:12:54.400 You really have the genetics, you had the face, you 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.760 are a supermodel, and this show hurt you more than 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.839 it helped you. That I think we see a copy 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.720 and pasted onto a lot of women, but just Stanny 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.640 was the most obvious example in the Netflix doc, and 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.080 I would have liked to see more stories like hers 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:12.120 of trying to make it afterwards, like we heard with Yanna. 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:13.359 I think Eanna similarly. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.440 Yeah. I mean it also made me think of someone 0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.320 who wasn't on the Netflix doc. She was in our pod. 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.200 She's also going to be on the e Dirty Broden's 0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:28.200 Gambles series Angelie. Yes, because I thought about the things 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.520 that these women had to go do to like make 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.839 ends meet right, Like Angelie told probably one of the 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:40.280 most moving and disturbing and memorable stories I think on 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.920 our podcast YEP. On Angelie's original season, she did pretty well. 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:47.719 She got off the show, couldn't find work, could not 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:50.679 find work at all. No one took her seriously. Angelie 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:54.560 got like the angry black girl, ghetto girl, edit on 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:57.640 her season she could not get work. Angelie ends up 0:13:57.640 --> 0:14:03.640 being trafficked like sex traffic, and she ends up getting 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:05.920 out of it. Not long after, she goes back on 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:09.440 A ANDTM All Stars. She wins the whole thing and 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.240 they take away her win because the contract allowed her to, 0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:17.120 and Angelie after that still never got that modeling opportunity. 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:18.920 It's like she did the things she was supposed to do, 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:23.120 she won the show, and that still didn't help her 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.280 at all. So that for me, it was really interesting 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:29.880 that Netflix didn't talk about that. Of course, we decided 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:31.960 to tie it to the contracts because that's how they 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:34.280 were able to strip her win, but just that, in 0:14:34.320 --> 0:14:37.440 and of itself, that story to show that like this 0:14:37.560 --> 0:14:40.400 show did not help women, and even when they were 0:14:40.400 --> 0:14:43.200 in a position to help the women who really needed help, 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.120 they went out of their way to not help them 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:49.920 if they didn't represent whatever standard bullshit standard they'd come 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:50.280 up with. 0:14:50.320 --> 0:15:07.480 You know, seeing Tyra in this dock and how bad 0:15:07.600 --> 0:15:11.920 she comes off, it does make me wonder she didn't 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:16.360 want someone to actually be the next supermodel like Queen, 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:18.080 you know what I mean, Like she might have not 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.200 actually wanted to share that spotlight that title that could 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.520 be a part of this as well that I didn't 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:28.920 let myself think about during the podcast production because it 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:33.800 felt like it wasn't substantiated fully. But seeing her in 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:38.960 this Netflix dock consistently deflecting and then knowing how much 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:44.040 these women wanted and could have made it in the industry, 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:46.400 but she didn't go to bat for them at all, 0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.640 it makes me wonder what her motivations were there. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.160 Absolutely, I mean that is true because I feel like 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:52.920 Tyra came up in an era where there could only 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.080 be one There could only be one black supermodel, right, 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.520 and so she was pitted against Naomi Campbell, And while 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:03.520 Tira presented herself was like girl power, I love all women. 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.000 We know like based on the show that like, she 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:08.400 certainly didn't, and so I could That's such a good point, MO, 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.320 Like she maybe did not want to create her rival. 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:13.560 She didn't want to take the create the person who 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:15.880 would now be known as the other black supermodel. It's 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:18.720 like it comes from this like mindset of scarcity, and 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:20.400 it isn't it's not always your fault that you have 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:22.520 that mindset of scarcity, but I guess it's just in 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.760 huge contrast with how Tyra actually presented herself. But yeah, 0:16:26.760 --> 0:16:28.520 that's the point. I didn't think about a lot either, 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:31.840 like did Tyra even want any of these girls to 0:16:31.880 --> 0:16:33.800 be top models? Because then who was Tyra? 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:37.840 And with Angelie the documentary, not getting into Angelie was 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.000 a real missed opportunity in the Netflix talk I mean, 0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:41.920 even though they didn't have her interview, they still could 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:44.760 have talked about that, talked about it, and they didn't. 0:16:45.360 --> 0:16:48.520 It's one of the biggest scandals that ever happened on ANTM. 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:50.680 I'm like, talk about it, mentioning it, I guess. I mean, 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:52.680 this is the problem. We also ran into right and 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:55.560 we had ten eleven episodes if you count the bonus. 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.600 There's just so much crazy shit that went down on 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:01.720 that show. You really do have to pick what you're 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:03.760 going to talk about and what you're going to say 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:07.520 about it, and so, you know, hated for him. Netflix 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.640 only had three episodes, so there's a lot of stuff 0:17:10.920 --> 0:17:13.399 that they skipped over that I was like a little 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:19.200 surprised by. And I think Angelee's story is certainly one 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:21.960 of them, because when have you ever heard of like 0:17:22.000 --> 0:17:24.520 somebody winning the whole thing and then having this huge 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.119 scandal where their win is taken away. And it's interesting 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.040 because they never did another All Stars after that either, right. 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:33.640 Right, Yeah. And the other thing we didn't see from 0:17:33.640 --> 0:17:37.159 the Netflix stock that they could have gone into but 0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:40.520 they didn't, which we talked about in our last episode 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:44.480 of the podcast, is what these contestants, what these former 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:49.359 contestants actually want from Tyra. And it differs, you know, 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.879 we heard different takes on what they want, but a 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:54.920 lot of them just want accountability. Some of them just 0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.159 want a phone call where Tyra says, hey, I know 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.040 that what happened on that show was not okay, and 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:05.080 I'm sorry, and that was my call and I wish 0:18:05.119 --> 0:18:07.640 it had gone down differently, and I respect you and 0:18:07.720 --> 0:18:09.480 I wish that it hadn't happened. You know, like a 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:11.719 lot of them just wanted that, But some of them 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.360 want money. You know, they're like, my image is still 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:16.399 being replayed over and over again and I'm making no 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.000 money on this. But we didn't hear any of those 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.280 perspectives on what they want from Tira. Yeah. 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.639 I think that's really missing too, because I think it 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:30.000 changes the conversation from we were victims, we had this 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.080 thing happened to us, We just need to talk about it, 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:35.600 and it makes it seem like there's no way to 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.760 be actually accountable. And then it's Answerry, you know what 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:40.840 I mean, Like there are tangible things that can be 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.200 and a lot of these models know that and they're 0:18:43.200 --> 0:18:43.600 saying that. 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:50.000 I completely agree. Yeah, all right, so let's really go 0:18:50.040 --> 0:18:52.720 deep on Tyra because we both have been talking about 0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:55.359 Tyra for a year and what does she know, what 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.399 does she not know? What does she oh? These women, 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.520 these contestants from the show, what does she represent? What 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:04.600 did she do? What did she not do? And why 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:07.320 is she the person that we put all of this 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:09.679 all and is that there? You know, these are questions 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.560 we grappled with, especially you. I mean when we were 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:14.679 first working on this series, it was hard for you 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.680 to cop down too hard on Tyra. At the beginning, 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:19.720 you were like, I don't know if she's the villain, 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:22.720 So yeah, let's talk about that now. 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:25.879 It is something I grapple with a lot. And in 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:28.720 the beginning I was like, I don't think she's a villain. 0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:31.919 Then I was like, I think she's an evil genius. 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:37.360 Then like even on the last episode, like when we 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.560 were still weighing this question, out like we had. We 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:43.280 had a whole segment, a whole section where we were 0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.320 talking about all the things Tara did do right, right, 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.439 and all the criticism that Tyra's gotten that isn't the 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.479 same as like white men in her same position, similarly 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:55.560 positioned white men, they don't get the same sort of criticism. 0:19:55.600 --> 0:19:58.320 Like we even went there with it, and I did 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.119 leave feeling like we've been really fair to Tyra while 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.680 like holding her to account. But after watching the Netflix 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.720 doc and watching how she feels about it now, I 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:11.000 almost feel like we could have went harder. We didn't 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:15.240 go far enough, Like I am now convinced she is 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.439 a villain. Like if there were any questions in my 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:25.720 mind before seeing her still sort of dodge accountability, underlined 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:29.720 the fact that she does not give a fuck, And 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:32.520 how could you watch this thing and know what happened 0:20:32.520 --> 0:20:35.720 to these girls and hear them say like, huh, you know, 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.800 like this kind of ruined my life and your answer 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:41.520 is still but this is what the people wanted, even 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:43.359 her thing, but this was like the scariest thing. I'm like, 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:46.600 is this a threat Tarra? The thing she said about 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.320 like are you gonna be prepared when people come for 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:52.000 you talking to the audience, like this audience said, likely, 0:20:52.240 --> 0:20:54.960 we don't have a multimillion dollar TV show. Are you 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:56.560 going to be prepared when they come for you? Because 0:20:56.600 --> 0:20:58.960 they are coming, or they will come for you. That 0:20:59.080 --> 0:21:03.440 statement was so defensive, and it was trying to deflect 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:07.359 again the blame that she holds in this, and it 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.600 just was so like it was almost the sort of 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.000 thing that a villain in a movie would say when 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.239 they're caught, they're coming for you next. And I'm just 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:18.879 like Tyra girl like down sing. Like you said, you 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.639 pointed out one of her her fashion choice, even so 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:23.240 it made her look like a villain. 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:26.680 Yeah, the trench coat, right, like that was a wild 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.879 stylistic choice. I don't know if she made that choice 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:32.320 or style has made that choice, but that was the 0:21:32.320 --> 0:21:34.959 wrong choice. Like, the trench coat is so representative of 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.560 I have something to hide, So that just visually was 0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:44.399 a mistake. But then man, she was hollow. She was 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.280