1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,760 Speaker 1: Hi, Curse Up listeners, I know you miss me on 2 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: your feed. Don't worry. We're working on an all new 3 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: season of Curse Of coming out later this year. In 4 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 1: the meantime, if you can't stop thinking about the shocking 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: stories you heard about America's Next Top Model, you'll definitely 6 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: want to check out our new docuseries from E Dirty 7 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: Rotten Scandals. In the series, you'll hear from the America's 8 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: Next Top Model participants you heard from on Curse Of, 9 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:27,240 Speaker 1: and a few you didn't like former A and TM 10 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: judge Janis Dickinson. Dirty Rotten Scandals unveils the dark underbelly 11 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: of the long running TV series through the untold stories 12 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,519 Speaker 1: of former contestants, and shows what happens when a golden 13 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: opportunity for aspiring models unravels into a harrowing saga of exploitation, 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: shattered dreams, and resilience. You can find the two part 15 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 1: docuseries Dirty Rotten Scandals America's Next Top Model on E Network. 16 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: Check your local TV provider schedule. Want to be on 17 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: some you want to be on the show. Welcome to 18 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: the Curse of America's Next Top Model. I'm Richard Armstrong. Hey, y'all, 19 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: we're back with part two of this bonus episode. I'm 20 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: with my editor Monik la Board and we're doing a 21 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: deep dive on the new ANTM Netflix Dock. We left 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:31,040 Speaker 1: off talking about one of the most disturbing revelations in 23 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 1: the docu series, What Happened to Shandy Sullivan on A 24 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: and TM Cycle two. In the documentary, Shandy describes an 25 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: incident on set where producers invited over some guys to 26 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: the model house. They were drinking and Shandy was really 27 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 1: drunk and she and one of the guys ended up 28 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: having a sexual encounter, but Shandy was too drunk to consent, 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: and without consent, that is sexual assault. A and TM 30 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: filmed the whole thing, including the assault, and aired it 31 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: and all of these years later, when Tyra and Kinmock 32 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: were asked about what happened to Shandy on the docuseries, 33 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 1: they refuse to take accountability. In fact, kin Mock justified it, well, 34 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,640 Speaker 1: what about when Kinmock said they kept filming because it 35 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 1: was a documentary. 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 2: Oh my god, bull shit, Like it is not a documentary. 37 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,399 Speaker 2: Even documentaries are produced, they know what they're gonna get 38 00:02:29,440 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 2: and they edit it to look a certain way like 39 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 2: it is okay, we know that it is not a documentary. 40 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 2: People were typecast, people were told who to be, and 41 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,480 Speaker 2: the scenes that we saw, the reactions that we saw 42 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 2: at that was all set up and planned. Like calling 43 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 2: in a documentary. That really rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah, 44 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 2: what do you think? 45 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,520 Speaker 1: Oh my god. I was like, we literally know, like 46 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: we know that this thing. If your idea of a 47 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:01,160 Speaker 1: documentary is we show up and document whatever's happen, right, I'm. 48 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: Like, no, we know for sure. 49 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: We had producers on record saying to us, yeah, we 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: stirred the pot. Yeah, we created drama. Yeah, we did 51 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: all these things and stuff for him to sort of 52 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: be like they intervened. I mean they intervened when the 53 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: person that they didn't think that the person who won 54 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: All Stars, Angelie was suitable to be on the show, 55 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: they intervened and kicked her off the show in a retap. 56 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: But you know what I mean, they intervened. They intervened 57 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: a lot, Like they intervened a lot to cause certain 58 00:03:30,320 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 1: situations that would play great for the camera. They intervened 59 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: a lot. And so for you to take this road 60 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: of like oh everybody knew when they came on the 61 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: show that we're just going to film what happens when 62 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: we're talking about a girl getting literally assaulted, yep, when 63 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: you are literally filming a blackout, drunk woman being sexually assaulted, 64 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: Like this is what we're talking about. What you didn't 65 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: want to intervene, not like a squabble between two contestants, 66 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,240 Speaker 1: you know. And that for me, again, that's the sort 67 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 1: of thing that you say we were wrong, Like that's 68 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: all this I don't want to hear about, Like, oh, 69 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: it's a documentary and that's just something you say, you 70 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: know what, we were wrong and we should have handled 71 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: that differently, and you know. But I don't know why 72 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: I get shot every time I hear lack of accountability 73 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 1: from Kim Mock and Tyre, I think that's just they 74 00:04:22,720 --> 00:04:25,360 Speaker 1: don't feel bad. That's what we're supposed to take away 75 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: from this. They don't feel that bad about this. Mm hmm. 76 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting. The only time we saw Kim Mock 77 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: take accountability was on the Dead Body shoot, which was 78 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 2: disturbing to see, but yeah, he gave a pretty good 79 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 2: example of accountability. He was like, that was wrong. That 80 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 2: was my call and that was the wrong call. And 81 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,839 Speaker 2: we should not have done that period and that it's like, 82 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 2: why is that so hard to say? Can we say 83 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 2: that more for some of this other stuff that happened. 84 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,400 Speaker 2: Maybe it's that that isn't legally implicating it all. It's 85 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 2: just unsavory and that's why he was able to say 86 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: it and take accountability for that one. But I would 87 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 2: have liked to see a lot more of that from 88 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: ken Bock and Tyra. 89 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And there was a lot of stuff that the 90 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: doc didn't get into that we talked about, right, So 91 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,240 Speaker 1: watching the Psachi series we had all this context. One 92 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: of those things for me, and it's what we're talking 93 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: about now, was the amount of manipulation that happened behind 94 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: the scenes, whether that was manipulating scenes, creating drama, manipulating 95 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: who actually won, setting up challenges so certain people did 96 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: really well and others didn't. That for me was something 97 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,360 Speaker 1: they didn't get into as much that we certainly talked about. 98 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: Another thing that was big for us we did two 99 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: whole episodes the Psyche Vowels didn't really talk about the 100 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: Psyche valves, which you know, this was a part of 101 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: the process where everybody went through. You were told it 102 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: was for your own safety, but actually they were using 103 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: it also to produce the show. One thing for me 104 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: that Kimmock said, though, I was like, wait, that's it, 105 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,600 Speaker 1: You're admitting the thing. He said that a lot of 106 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: the young women who came on the show had troubled 107 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: backgrounds or didn't have a great family life, and they 108 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 1: didn't get validation at home, and so they came to 109 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: A and TM seeking that validation. And the troubled childhood 110 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: or difficult upbringing pattern is something we also uncovered when 111 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: recording for the podcast. 112 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 2: I was surprised that they didn't get into that at all, 113 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 2: but it wasn't an accident that this show knew about 114 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,600 Speaker 2: all of these women's deep traumas and then brought them 115 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 2: back up at really strikingly convenient times. So, like, it 116 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: was really strange to see Ken Mock acknowledge that some 117 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 2: of these girls had come on the show from difficult 118 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:53,280 Speaker 2: backgrounds having issues at home, because we had talked about like, 119 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 2: what is the pattern there? Why are we seeing this 120 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 2: pattern where so many of these women have a really 121 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:00,840 Speaker 2: traumatic background, And the pattern is that they were all 122 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: selected to be on the show, Like those were the contestants, 123 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 2: you picked it wasn't an accident that they all had 124 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 2: traumatic backgrounds and that was used against them to break 125 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 2: them down while the cameras were on. So it felt 126 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: really tone deaf that he said that, not acknowledging how 127 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 2: that information got translated to the producers and the fact 128 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 2: that those particular women were chosen for the show. And 129 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,840 Speaker 2: then I just think I've really enjoyed our episodes about 130 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: psyche vwels. That was really illuminating for me about how 131 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 2: reality TV shows work period, but especially how psyche vwls 132 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 2: can be misused and abused on shows like this. So 133 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: I think they were missing that for sure. Another thing 134 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: that we brought up on our show that they didn't 135 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 2: get into in the Netflix dock was the contracts that 136 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:54,679 Speaker 2: these I mean a lot of times girls were signing, 137 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: these teenagers were signing and being told to sign in 138 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: the moment in the room and not getting the chance 139 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 2: to look it over, also not really understanding what they 140 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:08,400 Speaker 2: were signing. And we got a copy of the contract 141 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: went through it, talked about it on an episode of 142 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 2: the podcast, but that was that was completely missing from 143 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: the Netflix stock. 144 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was actually surprised by that because it's one 145 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: of the things that I think you hear the models 146 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: criticize the show for the most was just how exploited 147 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,080 Speaker 1: of their contracts were and how they got nothing out 148 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:27,080 Speaker 1: of being on the show. You know, we heard from 149 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: models who told us that like they couldn't even they 150 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 1: couldn't make any money from it. So like they couldn't 151 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 1: even start a YouTube channel, you know, a paid channel 152 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: that where they're talking about their experience on ATM. They 153 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: couldn't write a book, they couldn't do anything, and this 154 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: is all in the contract. Meanwhile, Tyra was getting really rich. 155 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: And I think that that I actually think that that 156 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: is one of the biggest missing perspectives on this doc. 157 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: That it wasn't just like, oh, you were on the 158 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:55,440 Speaker 1: show and you were humiliated a bit, right, Like, I 159 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:57,959 Speaker 1: don't even know if people fully understand they didn't get 160 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: compensated at all, Like they had to buy their own food. 161 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: That actually shocked to be when we found it. When 162 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,559 Speaker 1: we first started working on this, I'd heard some other 163 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: models say they had a per dim a day, right, 164 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,240 Speaker 1: but I still didn't. It didn't connect to me that 165 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:14,320 Speaker 1: they had to actually you set per dim to feed themselves, 166 00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:15,959 Speaker 1: because I'm just thinking, like if you're on a show, 167 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 1: they feed you, right, like, at the very least you're 168 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: gonna get three meals a day, because like, wouldn't they 169 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:24,959 Speaker 1: want you to like eat, But like we come to 170 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: find out, know they want you starving and mad. That's 171 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 1: something that like the Netflix stock doesn't get into. And 172 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: I think that really just further drives home the exploitation 173 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: they experienced because knowing even in the short term, your 174 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,439 Speaker 1: basic needs were not even met on this show. Meanwhile, 175 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: you're humiliating yourself so tire can make millions. 176 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and there's that like agreement that we now kind 177 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 2: of audiences now understand with people who go on reality 178 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: TV shows that like, yeah, you're gonna be humiliated, probably 179 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 2: by the production team, regardless of what show it is, 180 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,839 Speaker 2: but you will get if you want it, a lot 181 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 2: of Instagram followers depending on how you do on the 182 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 2: show and how you market yourself, like you can become 183 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,280 Speaker 2: an Internet celebrity afterwards. But this is a time when 184 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: that was not an option. So not only were they 185 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 2: paid like pennies to appear basically on the show, they 186 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: didn't get to build that brand afterwards at all. So 187 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 2: it's just like such an interesting moment in time they 188 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 2: were left out to dry. They did have a scene 189 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: with Danny Evans talking about launching her modeling career afterwards 190 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 2: and being explicitly told you're not getting gigs because you 191 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 2: were on A ANDTM and people don't want to work 192 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,679 Speaker 2: with you because of that. It looks bad. Basically, what 193 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 2: did you think about what she said on the doc? 194 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,040 Speaker 2: That was new information that Tyra had approached her years 195 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 2: later and told her that she was aware of that stigma. 196 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: And then she didn't do anything for her. 197 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 2: I didn't know that. 198 00:10:57,360 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: I didn't know that either. Well, one thing, I think 199 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: it's interesting about the relationship between Tyra and Danny Evans. 200 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: We're talking about how Tyra rarely apologizes to anybody, Like 201 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: she'll apologize for like to the audience, but not to 202 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 1: a person. It was like a half assed apology. It 203 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: was like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. But Danny 204 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: Evans's the gap, telling Danny Evans to get her gap 205 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,959 Speaker 1: closed and ultimately closing it a bit. That's one of 206 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: the things that Tyra has addressed in the past, and 207 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 1: so to hear Danny say that, like, yeah, Tyra admitted 208 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: to just sort of leaving me out to Dry. I 209 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 1: think it sort of made me wonder if Tyra like 210 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: really resented Danny for some reason because she turned her 211 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: down on getting the Gap club because she didn't take 212 00:11:41,000 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: her advice explicitly. Did she just sort of hang her 213 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: out to dry? If that's just what Tyra did with 214 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 1: all the girls and Danny just so happened to like 215 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: run into her and she was feeling truthful that day. 216 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 1: I don't know, but yeah, it did make me think about, 217 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:58,120 Speaker 1: like there's something there's a dynamic happening between Tyron and 218 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: Danny where Tyre did feel the need to address what 219 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: she did to her, but also didn't feel the need 220 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: to help her, which is interesting. 221 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:09,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a big point that we made in 222 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: the podcast, which is that. 223 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: A lot of these. 224 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,240 Speaker 2: Women after coming on the show weren't actually welcomed into 225 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: the fashion industry. It wasn't actually a credential that they 226 00:12:21,679 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 2: had won antm. It was the opposite. It was like 227 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 2: a stain because it was seen as like taki to have, 228 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 2: you know, gone on a reality TV show and with 229 00:12:30,679 --> 00:12:35,320 Speaker 2: someone like Danny, I mean seeing that she had got 230 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 2: herself after the show into an agency where she was 231 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 2: trying auditioning and then just looking at some of her 232 00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: photos after the show from her career, even looking at 233 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: her now, you're like, oh, you actually could have made it. 234 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: You really have the genetics, you had the face, you 235 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:57,760 Speaker 2: are a supermodel, and this show hurt you more than 236 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 2: it helped you. That I think we see a copy 237 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,720 Speaker 2: and pasted onto a lot of women, but just Stanny 238 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: was the most obvious example in the Netflix doc, and 239 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 2: I would have liked to see more stories like hers 240 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 2: of trying to make it afterwards, like we heard with Yanna. 241 00:13:12,200 --> 00:13:13,359 Speaker 2: I think Eanna similarly. 242 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it also made me think of someone 243 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: who wasn't on the Netflix doc. She was in our pod. 244 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,200 Speaker 1: She's also going to be on the e Dirty Broden's 245 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 1: Gambles series Angelie. Yes, because I thought about the things 246 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: that these women had to go do to like make 247 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 1: ends meet right, Like Angelie told probably one of the 248 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: most moving and disturbing and memorable stories I think on 249 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: our podcast YEP. On Angelie's original season, she did pretty well. 250 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,719 Speaker 1: She got off the show, couldn't find work, could not 251 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,679 Speaker 1: find work at all. No one took her seriously. Angelie 252 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: got like the angry black girl, ghetto girl, edit on 253 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: her season she could not get work. Angelie ends up 254 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: being trafficked like sex traffic, and she ends up getting 255 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: out of it. Not long after, she goes back on 256 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: A ANDTM All Stars. She wins the whole thing and 257 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: they take away her win because the contract allowed her to, 258 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: and Angelie after that still never got that modeling opportunity. 259 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 1: It's like she did the things she was supposed to do, 260 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: she won the show, and that still didn't help her 261 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: at all. So that for me, it was really interesting 262 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: that Netflix didn't talk about that. Of course, we decided 263 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 1: to tie it to the contracts because that's how they 264 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: were able to strip her win, but just that, in 265 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: and of itself, that story to show that like this 266 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: show did not help women, and even when they were 267 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,200 Speaker 1: in a position to help the women who really needed help, 268 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: they went out of their way to not help them 269 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: if they didn't represent whatever standard bullshit standard they'd come 270 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 1: up with. 271 00:14:50,320 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 2: You know, seeing Tyra in this dock and how bad 272 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: she comes off, it does make me wonder she didn't 273 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 2: want someone to actually be the next supermodel like Queen, 274 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: you know what I mean, Like she might have not 275 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 2: actually wanted to share that spotlight that title that could 276 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: be a part of this as well that I didn't 277 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 2: let myself think about during the podcast production because it 278 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:33,800 Speaker 2: felt like it wasn't substantiated fully. But seeing her in 279 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 2: this Netflix dock consistently deflecting and then knowing how much 280 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 2: these women wanted and could have made it in the industry, 281 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 2: but she didn't go to bat for them at all, 282 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:48,640 Speaker 2: it makes me wonder what her motivations were there. 283 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean that is true because I feel like 284 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 1: Tyra came up in an era where there could only 285 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: be one There could only be one black supermodel, right, 286 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:58,520 Speaker 1: and so she was pitted against Naomi Campbell, And while 287 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: Tira presented herself was like girl power, I love all women. 288 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 1: We know like based on the show that like, she 289 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: certainly didn't, and so I could That's such a good point, MO, 290 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: Like she maybe did not want to create her rival. 291 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: She didn't want to take the create the person who 292 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: would now be known as the other black supermodel. It's 293 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: like it comes from this like mindset of scarcity, and 294 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: it isn't it's not always your fault that you have 295 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: that mindset of scarcity, but I guess it's just in 296 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: huge contrast with how Tyra actually presented herself. But yeah, 297 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 1: that's the point. I didn't think about a lot either, 298 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: like did Tyra even want any of these girls to 299 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: be top models? Because then who was Tyra? 300 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 2: And with Angelie the documentary, not getting into Angelie was 301 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,000 Speaker 2: a real missed opportunity in the Netflix talk I mean, 302 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: even though they didn't have her interview, they still could 303 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: have talked about that, talked about it, and they didn't. 304 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 1: It's one of the biggest scandals that ever happened on ANTM. 305 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, talk about it, mentioning it, I guess. I mean, 306 00:16:50,760 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 1: this is the problem. We also ran into right and 307 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: we had ten eleven episodes if you count the bonus. 308 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: There's just so much crazy shit that went down on 309 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: that show. You really do have to pick what you're 310 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: going to talk about and what you're going to say 311 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: about it, and so, you know, hated for him. Netflix 312 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 1: only had three episodes, so there's a lot of stuff 313 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: that they skipped over that I was like a little 314 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:19,200 Speaker 1: surprised by. And I think Angelee's story is certainly one 315 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: of them, because when have you ever heard of like 316 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: somebody winning the whole thing and then having this huge 317 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: scandal where their win is taken away. And it's interesting 318 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: because they never did another All Stars after that either, right. 319 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 2: Right, Yeah. And the other thing we didn't see from 320 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 2: the Netflix stock that they could have gone into but 321 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 2: they didn't, which we talked about in our last episode 322 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: of the podcast, is what these contestants, what these former 323 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 2: contestants actually want from Tyra. And it differs, you know, 324 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,879 Speaker 2: we heard different takes on what they want, but a 325 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 2: lot of them just want accountability. Some of them just 326 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 2: want a phone call where Tyra says, hey, I know 327 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 2: that what happened on that show was not okay, and 328 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:05,080 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and that was my call and I wish 329 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 2: it had gone down differently, and I respect you and 330 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: I wish that it hadn't happened. You know, like a 331 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,719 Speaker 2: lot of them just wanted that, But some of them 332 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:14,360 Speaker 2: want money. You know, they're like, my image is still 333 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,399 Speaker 2: being replayed over and over again and I'm making no 334 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: money on this. But we didn't hear any of those 335 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: perspectives on what they want from Tira. Yeah. 336 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: I think that's really missing too, because I think it 337 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: changes the conversation from we were victims, we had this 338 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: thing happened to us, We just need to talk about it, 339 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: and it makes it seem like there's no way to 340 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: be actually accountable. And then it's Answerry, you know what 341 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: I mean, Like there are tangible things that can be 342 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: and a lot of these models know that and they're 343 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: saying that. 344 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 2: I completely agree. Yeah, all right, so let's really go 345 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:52,720 Speaker 2: deep on Tyra because we both have been talking about 346 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 2: Tyra for a year and what does she know, what 347 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 2: does she not know? What does she oh? These women, 348 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 2: these contestants from the show, what does she represent? What 349 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: did she do? What did she not do? And why 350 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 2: is she the person that we put all of this 351 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 2: all and is that there? You know, these are questions 352 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: we grappled with, especially you. I mean when we were 353 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 2: first working on this series, it was hard for you 354 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 2: to cop down too hard on Tyra. At the beginning, 355 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 2: you were like, I don't know if she's the villain, 356 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:22,720 Speaker 2: So yeah, let's talk about that now. 357 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: It is something I grapple with a lot. And in 358 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: the beginning I was like, I don't think she's a villain. 359 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: Then I was like, I think she's an evil genius. 360 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: Then like even on the last episode, like when we 361 00:19:37,359 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: were still weighing this question, out like we had. We 362 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: had a whole segment, a whole section where we were 363 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: talking about all the things Tara did do right, right, 364 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 1: and all the criticism that Tyra's gotten that isn't the 365 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,479 Speaker 1: same as like white men in her same position, similarly 366 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: positioned white men, they don't get the same sort of criticism. 367 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: Like we even went there with it, and I did 368 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: leave feeling like we've been really fair to Tyra while 369 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: like holding her to account. But after watching the Netflix 370 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: doc and watching how she feels about it now, I 371 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: almost feel like we could have went harder. We didn't 372 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: go far enough, Like I am now convinced she is 373 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: a villain. Like if there were any questions in my 374 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 1: mind before seeing her still sort of dodge accountability, underlined 375 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: the fact that she does not give a fuck, And 376 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: how could you watch this thing and know what happened 377 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: to these girls and hear them say like, huh, you know, 378 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: like this kind of ruined my life and your answer 379 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: is still but this is what the people wanted, even 380 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: her thing, but this was like the scariest thing. I'm like, 381 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: is this a threat Tarra? The thing she said about 382 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: like are you gonna be prepared when people come for 383 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: you talking to the audience, like this audience said, likely, 384 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: we don't have a multimillion dollar TV show. Are you 385 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: going to be prepared when they come for you? Because 386 00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: they are coming, or they will come for you. That 387 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: statement was so defensive, and it was trying to deflect 388 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: again the blame that she holds in this, and it 389 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: just was so like it was almost the sort of 390 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: thing that a villain in a movie would say when 391 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,239 Speaker 1: they're caught, they're coming for you next. And I'm just 392 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: like Tyra girl like down sing. Like you said, you 393 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 1: pointed out one of her her fashion choice, even so 394 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: it made her look like a villain. 395 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, the trench coat, right, like that was a wild 396 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 2: stylistic choice. I don't know if she made that choice 397 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 2: or style has made that choice, but that was the 398 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,959 Speaker 2: wrong choice. Like, the trench coat is so representative of 399 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 2: I have something to hide, So that just visually was 400 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 2: a mistake. But then man, she was hollow. She was 401 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: so hollow in her answers. She came off as really insincere. 402 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 2: And she's had you made the point earlier. You know, 403 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,239 Speaker 2: she's had five years since twenty twenty to come up 404 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,920 Speaker 2: with a better answer than it was a different time 405 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 2: and everyone's getting canceled these days, and she kind of 406 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 2: made it seem in this dock even still, Like it's 407 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 2: a few internet trolls as opposed to a pattern of 408 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 2: her behavior over a twenty year period of time that 409 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 2: the broader culture is reckoning with and calling out as 410 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,920 Speaker 2: not acceptable. Why would she show up to this interview 411 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 2: and not have better answers? I don't get it. 412 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:28,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that Tira either really doesn't understand that 413 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: she did something wrong, right, like she really believes her bullshit, 414 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: or she knows exactly what she's doing. She knows that 415 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: like these answers that lack accountability are gonna get people 416 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: mad and get people talking, and she's continuing to give 417 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,520 Speaker 1: these answers because it sparks conversation. I mean, we're talking 418 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 1: about it now. There are three there's two documentaries in 419 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,159 Speaker 1: a podcast all about A and M. Tyra Banks, a 420 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: show that went off years ago and premiered twenty years ago. 421 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 1: And so I think part of that could be she 422 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: knows that that, like, on the way hand, likes you know, 423 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: I said I thought Tyra was maybe an evil genius, right. 424 00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: I certainly think Tyron knows what catches people's attention, and 425 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: she knows how to hold their attention. 426 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, And she says that she's like I can 427 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 2: sense what people want, I can taste it, you know, 428 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: And she's right. 429 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 1: She is right, And I wonder if Tyra knows that 430 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: people want a villain. People want a villain, and they 431 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: want her to be the villain. And it continued. It 432 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: is something that continues to drive conversation around her and 433 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: her show. And she's the person who hasn't been on 434 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 1: televisioning year, she hasn't been a professional modeling years, but 435 00:23:35,040 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: we're still talking about her so much. And so yeah. 436 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:40,920 Speaker 1: The other option is Tarah knows exactly what she's doing, 437 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: and she knows by giving these sort of vague, hollow answers, 438 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: it'll get people talking, it'll get people to pay attention. 439 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: I mean, she has incentive to. I guess because of 440 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: some of the news that they revealed. We're going to 441 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the season twenty five hint 442 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,159 Speaker 1: that terrifying. I was like Tea's and twenty girl know 443 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 1: about that a little bit more. But like maybe that's 444 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,720 Speaker 1: the reason she's doing the interview in the first place. 445 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: Maybe that's why she's trying to get this conversation started, 446 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: because now we're all gonna tune in and see has 447 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 1: Tyra changed. It's a different time now, is it going 448 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: to be different? That could be what Tyra was, or 449 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 1: it's the opposite. Tyra really doesn't understand how callous she seems, 450 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: which is possibly scarier. 451 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 2: I'm really torn about those two and they're both bad options, 452 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 2: Like neither of them is better than the other. But 453 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 2: to your the thing you brought up about her saying, oh, 454 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:35,520 Speaker 2: I hope you're prepared for when they come for you 455 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 2: to I guess the producer asking her a question about 456 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: the show that she made for twenty years. It really 457 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 2: that to me, like portrayed a deeper sort of psychology 458 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 2: and a deeper problem that reminded me of the mom 459 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 2: in Unknown Number, the Netflix stock the mom Kendra Lacari 460 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 2: when she sits down for her sort of confrontation interview 461 00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: and she says, oh, well, who hasn't made a mistake, 462 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,240 Speaker 2: who hasn't had wont too many drinks but decided to 463 00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:07,199 Speaker 2: drive home anyway? And it's like, well, that's not what 464 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:10,080 Speaker 2: we're talking about here. We're actually asking you about some 465 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 2: very specific things that you did. So to deflect that 466 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 2: and to really think you're making a smart point in 467 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 2: that deflection almost like betray as a deeper psychological lack 468 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 2: of connecting the dots that make me think that maybe 469 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,800 Speaker 2: maybe it's the former. Maybe she genuinely does not believe 470 00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 2: she did wrong. 471 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: We talked about this on our season. She likes to 472 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: say a lot of times that people didn't know better 473 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: back then, or all of a sudden in twenty twenty. 474 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: I think she says, it's in the dog verbati. I'm like, 475 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, twenty twenty, everybody's looking 476 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: back at like this was really wrong or something like that. 477 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: She said, I'm like, well, before it'senty twenty, the models 478 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: knew it was wrong because they say so, and hm. 479 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: The fact that she still doesn't address that and we're 480 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: all pretending, I mean, this is extreme. I'm going to 481 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,159 Speaker 1: give an extreme example, right. But it's like those people 482 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 1: who try to justify racism because it was a different time, 483 00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:04,600 Speaker 1: and they'll say, oh, you're back in the forties and 484 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: the fifties. It was just different, and it pretends as 485 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 1: though there were no black people who were saying like this, 486 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: was wrong. Tyra likes to put it in this thing 487 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: that like nobody knew, well the very least the people 488 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: you were doing this too, knew it was wrong and 489 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: they said it, So why don't they count? 490 00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 2: Yeah. 491 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: I came into the podcast wanting her not to be 492 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: the sole villain or wanting it to be something else, 493 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: But seeing her on this docuseries, I don't know if 494 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: she listened to Curse of I like to think she did, 495 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: But seeing her on this docuseries and knowing that she's 496 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: heard these criticisms and this still being her response is 497 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: just at a certain point, fan or no fan, antim 498 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: lover or no antim lover at a certain point, you can't. 499 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 1: I can't make excuses. It's just it is what it is, 500 00:26:49,720 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: you know. All Right, We're back for the final part 501 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: of this conversation about the Netflix stock. Tiper had a 502 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: huge platform with this docuseries, and I'm not going to 503 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: say I'm surprised, but I am disappointed that she didn't 504 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: really take accountability in this docuseries for what went wrong 505 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: on ANTM. 506 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, and the biggest example of the fact that she 507 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: is not taking accountability for what she what went wrong 508 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 2: on ANTM is that this doc came out at the 509 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,959 Speaker 2: same time as the reboot was announced for cycle twenty 510 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: five of ANTM. 511 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: Have we not gone through enough? Like so, when I 512 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: was watching the doc and knowing that we reached out 513 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: to her, didn't get didn't response, I didn't want to 514 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: do the show. And you know, it was announced that 515 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: she was going to do the Netflix stock and I 516 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: thought like, oh, maybe because Netflix is this huge platform. 517 00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:58,199 Speaker 1: But she's she's going to do the biggest platform. If 518 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: she's going to address all these things, she's gonna dress 519 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: for once and for all on Netflix. Right, That's what 520 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: I thought was her motivation for doing this in the 521 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: first place. But by the time we got to the 522 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: end of this dock where she's like, I'm not finished yet, 523 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: truly terrifying words. Right by the time we get to 524 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: that and she says season twenty five, I'm like, oh, Okay, 525 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,359 Speaker 1: this is the reason why she this is why. Yep, 526 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 1: this was her justification because I don't think Tyr's going 527 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 1: to do anything that's not going to benefit her. 528 00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:28,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. 529 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, being on this docu series was just a soft 530 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: launch for the next season, something we certainly don't need 531 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: for me. If there is going to be another season, 532 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: I actually think Tyra should be pretty far away from it. 533 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: I have a small criticism about Netflix reality shows. They're 534 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: a little too earnest for me, right, Like Love is 535 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: Blind is a ridiculous idea, and we're all like the 536 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 1: way the show is shot, it's like this could actually work, 537 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: and these people are for real, and this isn't the 538 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: silliest thing you've ever seen, you know. I mean, even 539 00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: take a show like Cora, very earnest, very like sweet 540 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: wholesome moments. Yeah, I think that's going to be kind 541 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: of the tone of the season twenty five, a TM reboot. 542 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: I think that is going to be Tyra trying to 543 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: show her accountability. But the problem. One problem, we're still 544 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: not going to know what's happening behind the scenes and 545 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,040 Speaker 1: if these contestants are being treated fairly right. Two, Tyro's 546 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: sigma is already you come into it with that stigma. 547 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: And then three, I think that's something you brought up 548 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: when we were talking. It has a structural issue, like 549 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,240 Speaker 1: the show itself has a structural issues, So I'm wondering 550 00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: how you think they might approach that in a reboot. 551 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the structural issue that we talked about 552 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 2: in the podcast, which is that the industry does not 553 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 2: welcome reality TV stars. The real high fashion industry, like 554 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 2: if these girls want to be on the cover of 555 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 2: the industry does not welcome people from reality TV. But 556 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 2: it's also true that the world is really different right now, 557 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:02,840 Speaker 2: Like we have Instagram models, we have different opportunities than 558 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: we had twenty years ago when this show was first popular. 559 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: So I think there are ways that the show can 560 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: try to place them better in their careers and establish 561 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,520 Speaker 2: them better in their careers. That's the biggest thing that Well, 562 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,239 Speaker 2: there's a lot of big things they need to do. 563 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 2: I completely agree with you that, like the best thing 564 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,240 Speaker 2: Tyer could do would be to put someone else in 565 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,560 Speaker 2: that hosting role, like put Winnie Harlowe in that hosting 566 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 2: role and step away from the show. That would be 567 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 2: the best thing she could do. I don't think she's 568 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 2: going to do that because I think she wants to 569 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: be in the spotlight. There's all kinds of things that 570 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 2: I hope that they are doing better in this reboot. 571 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 2: But the biggest thing in terms of like what was 572 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 2: so sad in producing the podcast was hearing so many 573 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,239 Speaker 2: of these women who making it as a model, as 574 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 2: a supermodel was their dream. So I do hope that 575 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 2: the show structurally does more to place them in a 576 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: successful career, in successful career opportunities after you know whoever 577 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: wins Cycle twenty five. But it's a bad idea, just 578 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 2: it's if we don't want it. I don't think I don't. 579 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 1: Want it either. Okay, there's a few ways that I 580 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: could maybe like it. Maybe one. I agree with everything 581 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: you said, Tyrann needs to be fall fall fall away 582 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: from this thing. But I think if they involved some 583 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: of the models, like if they brought them back on 584 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: to be mentors or to in some capacity, right, Like 585 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 1: we know Kenya, who we spoke to, has like I think, 586 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: a consulting agency where she works with like aspiring models. 587 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: It'd be great to see her come on. Sea Harttorn 588 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: said that she worked as a model for years. He's 589 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: not working as a model anymore. But if they would 590 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: be up for it, I would love to see them 591 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: be involved in some way, whether it's judges or mentors 592 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: or something like that. And obviously would love for them 593 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,480 Speaker 1: to be actually compensated this time. That could be interesting. 594 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: One other thing though, and I completely agree with you 595 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: that I don't think that Tyro's gonna stay out of 596 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: the spotlight on this one. It's because it strikes me 597 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,000 Speaker 1: as this is Tyra's payback, right. So Tyra said on 598 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: this documentary that when she originally did antm SO back 599 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, this was like her payback 600 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:23,560 Speaker 1: to all of the agencies or fashion industry gatekeepers who 601 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:26,719 Speaker 1: body shamed her, who closed doors in her face, who 602 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:29,840 Speaker 1: didn't pay her as much, who basically she felt marginalized. 603 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 1: Story right, this was her payback by having a show. 604 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,520 Speaker 1: They have a magazine, but she has an entire TV 605 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: show like everybody seeing her. And so I thought about 606 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 1: that in the sense of like, yes, your goal, right 607 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 1: is to elevate people in modeling who otherwise wouldn't get 608 00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: an opportunity, right, or to show diverse beauty. That might 609 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,360 Speaker 1: have been a goal. But if your number one goal 610 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: is payback, all you need to be is successful. You 611 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: need to continue to be successful because the payback is 612 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 1: your success, and you'll go through You'll take great measures 613 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: to do that. And we've seen like the exploiting of 614 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: a woman, the manipulation all of this stuff to continue 615 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 1: to be successful and be on top, because that's your 616 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: payback to me. Season twenty five is almost the payback 617 00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,280 Speaker 1: to like all the people who've been calling her out. 618 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 1: We know she's not account you know, she doesn't really 619 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,160 Speaker 1: actually feel accountable, at least that's not how she presents herself, 620 00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:23,880 Speaker 1: so she's not like deeply sincerely sorry, right, So to me, 621 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: season twenty five is almost like a payback to show 622 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:29,200 Speaker 1: y'all that like, see, I can do this, like I 623 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,960 Speaker 1: can I can be a good mentor I can do 624 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: the actual thing I set out to do, as opposed 625 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: to like, oh, I'm coming back because I still see 626 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: a purpose for me in this, or I still want 627 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: to help young women. I think you just want to 628 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 1: come back to prop a point, just like creating A 629 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 1: and TM with the proper point. 630 00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 2: Who Yeah, I think that's a really smart take, And 631 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:50,680 Speaker 2: I hope that that's not what it looks like. I 632 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,080 Speaker 2: hope that they reckon with the first version of A 633 00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,040 Speaker 2: and TM at the beginning of the reboot. In some way, 634 00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 2: I feel like they have to, so I'm curious to 635 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: stay with that looks like. 636 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 1: But I don't know if it's going to work. This time, right, 637 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: because not only do we have our podcast and this 638 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,920 Speaker 1: Netflix docuy series which is not that kind to Tyra, 639 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: there's the E docu series from Blast and I Sentiment 640 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: from our production company that's coming out in March that 641 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 1: really does not do Tyra any favors that one. I 642 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: think for people who or even the models themselves who 643 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: feel like the Netflix doc didn't really focus enough on 644 00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,200 Speaker 1: the models where they are what happened to them, this 645 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: doc really does it, and it really sort of like 646 00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: brings up all of these things that you can directly 647 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: tie back to Tyra, right. 648 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 2: Uh huh. We got an early screener of the E 649 00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 2: doc that's airing in a few weeks, and you hear 650 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 2: more from the models, and it I think brings up 651 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,719 Speaker 2: different points about Tyra and her involvement in the show 652 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 2: that we didn't hear in this dock. It brings up, 653 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,680 Speaker 2: i think, harder points about the psyche bells, the contracts, 654 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: lack of payments, the manipulation. I think it really features 655 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 2: that side of this even more than the Netflix doc did. 656 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 2: So I'm looking forward to seeing what people think of 657 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: that and if that changes the way this reboot is 658 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 2: going to go And if. 659 00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: You think about it, it's just been a constant reckoning 660 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,759 Speaker 1: for A and TM since our show premiere in September, 661 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: right then the Netflix doc drops in February, and now 662 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: this E doc on March eleven is dropping. So it's 663 00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:33,359 Speaker 1: just like Tyra can't escape it. Like at every point 664 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,200 Speaker 1: where she's like whoo okay, the talk has died down, 665 00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,120 Speaker 1: it's like another thing comes out that's like, ah, tying 666 00:35:39,280 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: not so fast. So I just don't know if this 667 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: like season twenty five reboot is gonna do what she 668 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: thinks it's about to do, because people have been primed 669 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: to like criticize anything Tyr's about to do, because like 670 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,520 Speaker 1: you've literally probably just listened to like twenty four hours 671 00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: of Tyra criticism. But yeah, I'm interested to see what 672 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: people's reaction is to this E doc because I think 673 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,880 Speaker 1: there are some things that I mean, it's literally called 674 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: dirty rotten scandals, Like, there are some things in that 675 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: that are truly shocking, truly disturbing that happened on the 676 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: A and TM set, that happened to these young women. 677 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: And one of the things I'm not gonna spoil it. 678 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,919 Speaker 1: One of the things I like about the e doc 679 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: is that you know, we had at the end of 680 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: the Netflix documentary just sort of like a where are 681 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 1: they now? Just sort of quick where are they now? 682 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: It felt flat to me, like it felt tacked on 683 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: at the end. It felt like an abrupt ending with 684 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 2: the actual what we're really talking about here, which is 685 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: the contestants and how the show negatively impacted their lives. 686 00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,240 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I mean the e doc the one coming out 687 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: March eleven, that one does a really good job of 688 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 1: sort of showing us the contestants' lives now. I think 689 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: that's actually one of my favorite parts, because yeah, the 690 00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,919 Speaker 1: Netflix socket sort of felt flat even I think if 691 00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: we had to taken that approach, sort of hearing that 692 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: like yeah, I'm a mom, I'm a you know, yeah 693 00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:04,759 Speaker 1: I have this business and whatever, it doesn't hit the 694 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,879 Speaker 1: same as like seeing the model with like our their 695 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: teenage son, where you're like, oh my gosh, how do 696 00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: you have a teenager? Or seeing them work with young 697 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: aspiring models, like seeing them in their element. Because I 698 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: think ultimately we can't lose sight of the fact that 699 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,880 Speaker 1: in this story these models were affected in negative ways. 700 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: But I think it's good to know that, like they 701 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,200 Speaker 1: still made a life for themselves and they still found 702 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,600 Speaker 1: a path. It may not have been modeling, but they 703 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: found paths to do things that are fulfilling. And I 704 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,759 Speaker 1: think that the E. Dokey series just really does a 705 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: great job of like driving that home. 706 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited for people to see it. We've also 707 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:43,799 Speaker 2: gotten a lot of questions, which is, are you doing 708 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 2: another season of curself? Are you going to do another 709 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 2: podcast series like A and TM? And the truth is, 710 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 2: bridget you and I are scheming on something right now. 711 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: Scheme, scheme, plot plot. We are working on a season 712 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 1: two of course, I'm very excited about it. We can't 713 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: quite tell you what it is, but just know there 714 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: are some similar themes, yeah, and some new themes that 715 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: we're going to explore with this particular thing we're taken on. 716 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 1: So like, yeah, super excited. 717 00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, So stay tuned, stay subscribed to Curse Off, and 718 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: later this year in the summer, we show up season two. 719 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: Well, thank you for talking this out with me. Like, 720 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 1: I've been talking to people about this doc and you know, 721 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: it's been really cool because I'm like, yes, no, everybody 722 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 1: is look sess like me. But like there's so many 723 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,399 Speaker 1: things that people just found out with the doc, right, 724 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: so like I'm like, yeah, yes, yeah, yes, Sarah did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 725 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,879 Speaker 1: I remember that. Yeah, I know she said that because 726 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: I'm like been thinking about it for the whole past year. 727 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: So it's great to talk to you who've also been 728 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 1: thinking about these things, so we could just like get 729 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: it on the nitty gritty of like did you see 730 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: how Tyra held her eyebrow up when ex well I'll 731 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:59,480 Speaker 1: season twenty four, Yeah like that. So yeah, this has 732 00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: been great. Thank you so much for joining me. 733 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, thanks Bridget. 734 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: And that's all for this very special bonus episode. Thanks 735 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: for listening to the Curse of America's Next Top Model. 736 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,640 Speaker 1: The Curse of America's Next Top Model is a production 737 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,160 Speaker 1: of Glass Podcast, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in 738 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: partnership with iHeart Podcast. The show is executive produced by 739 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,000 Speaker 1: Nancy Glass, hosted and senior produced by me Bridget Armstrong. 740 00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: Our story editor is Monique le Board, also produced by 741 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 1: Ben Fetterman and Andrea Gunning. Associate producers are Kristin mel 742 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:40,880 Speaker 1: Carey and Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry 743 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,799 Speaker 1: and Jessica Crincheck. Audio editing and mixing on this episode 744 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,920 Speaker 1: by Matt del Vecchio. The Curse of America's Next Top 745 00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: Model theme was composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided 746 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit 747 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:59,480 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. 748 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,919 Speaker 1: Also check out the et Glass podcast Instagram for Curse 749 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: of America's Next Top Models behind the scenes content