1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: Hey, folks, I want to take a minute to ask 2 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: for your help. This show is a labor of love 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,560 Speaker 1: for all of us here on the team at calling BS. 4 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: We debate which organizations to investigate. We carefully consider how 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:16,479 Speaker 1: to best tell these stories. Our goal is to create 6 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,759 Speaker 1: a show that exposes purpose washing and the real harm 7 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: it does in the world. But we also want to 8 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: create a show that's fun to listen to and serves 9 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: as a practical guide for entrepreneurs and leadership teams about 10 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: how to do purpose right. We're really proud of what 11 00:00:32,240 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: we've made so far, and we're super excited about getting 12 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: season three into production so we can share it with 13 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: all of you now to the help we need. So far, 14 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: we are self funded. We need a sponsor or sponsors 15 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 1: to help us with the cost of production. But, and 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: this is important, we feel like it would be disingenuous 17 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,800 Speaker 1: given the theme of the show to accept money from 18 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: just anybody. It's important to us that the sponsors of 19 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 1: this show shared shows values. We're looking for partners who 20 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: are purpose lead themselves, Companies or organizations that truly walk 21 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,040 Speaker 1: their talk. Companies who understand the harm that purpose washing 22 00:01:11,160 --> 00:01:14,200 Speaker 1: does and who understand how important it is for all 23 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: of us that more companies embrace the path to purpose. 24 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: If you're a part of an organization like that, or 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: you know one that seems like a good fit, don't 26 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: hesitate to drop us a line. You can reach me 27 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:30,840 Speaker 1: directly at Team Montague at Calling Bullshit podcast dot com. 28 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and let's get on with the show. 29 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: The best case scenario for Web three is that it 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: brings about a golden age for the creator. The concept 31 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 1: of Web three is fairly elastic. What is the Web 32 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: going to evolve into? I think that there's a lot 33 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: of potential there. Web three overall is less about blockchains 34 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: per se than it is about the idea of innovating 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: new mechanisms of consensus building in social cooperation using digital tools. 36 00:02:10,480 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: Web three the third version of the Internet. It's often 37 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: described as a potential utopia guided by the promise of 38 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: decentralization and Internet where your attention and data belong to 39 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: you and you alone. But is the current manifestation of 40 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: Web three a reflection of this promise or is it 41 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: just a bunch of bs? Welcome to Calling Bullshit, the 42 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,359 Speaker 1: podcast about purpose washing. The gap between what an organization 43 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: says they stand for, and what they actually do, and 44 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 1: what they would need to change to practice what they preach. 45 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: I'm your host, time onto you, and I've spent over 46 00:02:55,800 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: a decade helping organizations define what they stand for, their 47 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: perp this and then help them to use that purpose 48 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, at a lot 49 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: of institutions today, there's still a pretty wide gap between 50 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: word and deed. That gap has a name, bullshit. But, 51 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: and this is important, we believe that bullshit is a 52 00:03:18,880 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 1: treatable condition. So when our bullshit detector lights up, we're 53 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: going to explore everything the organization should do to fix it. 54 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:43,440 Speaker 1: What is Web three? When I started digging into that question, 55 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 1: I found myself suffocated by jargon and acronyms, and once 56 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: I finally got up to speed on the language, I 57 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: was confronted with a lot of competing ideas. There are 58 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: as many definitions for Web three as there are people 59 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 1: working to build it. It's hard to put your finger 60 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: on something that doesn't fully exist. Yet, I had a 61 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 1: feeling I wasn't alone in my confusion, so I asked 62 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 1: calling BS producer Hailey Pascalites to get out there and 63 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 1: see what new Yorkers had to say on the topic, 64 00:04:17,640 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 1: We're doing an episode on web three on what web three? 65 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: Web three? What's Web three? I do know it is. 66 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: I think it's all hype. I think a lot of 67 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: it's going to go away, and I think a small 68 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,119 Speaker 1: part of it will stay and be actually valuable for 69 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 1: the future. What part do you think will stay? I 70 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: think the parts that are have actual practical applications rather 71 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:48,280 Speaker 1: than trying to hype and sell something. I mean, I 72 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 1: never really had to term it before. I've literally never 73 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: heard of it in my life. I just think of 74 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: like new tech, crypto, like these are all words that 75 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: come to mind. The reason all these words come to 76 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: mind is because these technologies are all components of a 77 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 1: larger but still nascent system and have gotten most of 78 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 1: the media attention to date. But for the purposes of 79 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 1: this episode, you don't have to know that blockchains are giant, 80 00:05:15,960 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: open stoce databases where data can be created but never destroyed, 81 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: and you don't have to appreciate the way that cryptocurrencies 82 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,159 Speaker 1: allow money to operate outside the confines of government. Nor 83 00:05:27,440 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 1: do you need to understand that n f t s 84 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: are non fungible tokens unique digital items that act just 85 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: like items in the real world. What you do need 86 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: to know is that Web three combines the ideals of 87 00:05:39,760 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: the original Internet, open democratic access to knowledge with the 88 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: most exciting aspects of some very new technologies. These technologies, blockchain, cryptocurrencies, 89 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,839 Speaker 1: and n f t s are powerful tools for codifying 90 00:05:57,880 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: that aspiration into the very fat brick of Web three, 91 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 1: because they are themselves open source, anti authority, and decentralized. 92 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: This is why Web three promises decentralization and data sovereignty. 93 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: It could be a version of the Internet where everybody 94 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:20,120 Speaker 1: has custody over their own data, a platform where your 95 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 1: digital self might reflect who you actually are, an Internet 96 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: where participation in democracy thrives. Another way to understand what 97 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: Web three might evolve into is by looking at what 98 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: it has evolved from. Mark Andresen, founder of Netscape and 99 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: co founder of venture capital firm A sixteen Z, says 100 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,440 Speaker 1: the three different phases of the Internet can be understood 101 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: as read, write, and own. Web one allowed users to 102 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,080 Speaker 1: intake content or read. The big breakthrough was you go online. 103 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: You can read stuff, you could see stuff, you can 104 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: do searches. Web two, the version we all know and 105 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: love is read right. It's the digital world of user 106 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: generated content and Internet funded by the attention economy, where 107 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: user data is ultimately controlled by a handful of giant companies, 108 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 1: sort of the social networking, blogging, video YouTube, you know 109 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: kind of user generated content era. Web three is read right. 110 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 1: Own own means you can own value, right, you can 111 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: own money, you can own digital assets. It's basically have 112 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: a trust layer of money layer and an ownership layer 113 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: that rides on top of the sort of untrusted, unowned 114 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: you know kind of space has been the Internet so far. 115 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: This individual ownership part gets a ton of press because 116 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: digital assets can now be uniquely tagged and monetized, meaning 117 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,120 Speaker 1: that n f t s and crypto are subject to 118 00:07:54,320 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: insane wild westing and speculation. So if you own a 119 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: bitcoin today, you will be a millionaire. Jack Dorsey's first 120 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: tweet sounding for nearly three million dollars. The art world 121 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 1: just turned upside down with the sale of this digital collage. 122 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 1: It sold Thursday in an auction for sixty nine point 123 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 1: three million dollars. And while crypto has become a volatile 124 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 1: market all its own, Sam Bankman Freed built ft x 125 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 1: into a huge crypto exchange valued at thirty two billion 126 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: dollars over just three years. Will last week get imploded, 127 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 1: sending aftershocks throughout the industry. It has also enabled the 128 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: movement of money in entirely new ways. In some cases 129 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: this is super positive, Ukraine's Ministry of Digital Transformation saying 130 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: they have raised over sixty eight million dollars through more 131 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 1: than hundred and twenty thousand crypto donations. In other cases 132 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:52,679 Speaker 1: not so much. Bad actors took advantage of the ethereum 133 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: merge to make millions of dollars. One point nine billion 134 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: dollars worth of cryptocurrency has been stolen, people thinking that 135 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: they're buying one of a kind digital pieces of artwork 136 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: or songs, believing that they're investing in what's the next 137 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: big thing. I can't call the police, there's no bank. 138 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: You've just lost all your money and there's not much 139 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: you can do about it. Web three and all its 140 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: current aspects currencies that aren't backed by government's art, that 141 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,520 Speaker 1: only exists in digital form. These might have started as 142 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: fringe concepts, but they are now fully mainstream. Have you 143 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: ever heard of the term web three? Web three? No? 144 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: I have no idea what that is? Oh, dear God, 145 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 1: I have no clue. All right, So maybe Web three 146 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: isn't fully mainstream, but it's certainly popular if you're a 147 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: coder and investor, or just techno curious. Venture capitalists like 148 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:53,480 Speaker 1: Mark Andreesen spent a combined thirty billion dollars on the 149 00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: crypto space last year alone. Many of these investors A 150 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 1: sixteen Z included are the very same firms that helped 151 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,959 Speaker 1: create the monopolies that control our current version of the web. 152 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: These giants of Web two have optimized for popularity, attention, 153 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: and convenience. This is their business model, and the ramifications 154 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: for that underlying philosophy have affected all aspects of public 155 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: and private life. We know that algorithms shape behavior, so 156 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: it's not hard to see how the future of Web 157 00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: three will fundamentally affect all of us. With the promise 158 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: of a more humane, egalitarian, and decentralized Internet, Web three 159 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: represents an opportunity for a different kind of system, but 160 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: it's still a very young industry. So what will the 161 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: underlying philosophy of Web three b Will it be true 162 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,760 Speaker 1: to the ideals of the promise, or by using the 163 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: same venture capital, will it succumb to the pitfalls of two. 164 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,520 Speaker 1: The answer is wrapped up in some fundamental philosophical questions 165 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: what is each person's responsibility to society and what does 166 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: it mean to be an individual? But before we get 167 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: into this cryptic hash puzzle, let's take a quick break. 168 00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 1: At this point, you may be wondering how the answers 169 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: to a few semi vague philosophical questions create the scaffolding 170 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: that holds up Web three. Well, luckily, my guest today, 171 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 1: Glenn Wile, is here to explain everything. He's a former 172 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: economist who now focuses on reimagining the future future of 173 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: social organization, economies, politics, etcetera. He's a big picture thinker. 174 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: He co authored the paper de central Life Society, Finding 175 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: Web three Soul with Ethereum founder Vitalic Buterin, where they 176 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: make the case for Web three based identity tokens, and 177 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: his book Radical Markets helped shift the discourse of Web 178 00:12:14,040 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 1: three away from an exclusive focus on blockchains and towards 179 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: something much broader and brighter. So to start out with, 180 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: in preparing for this conversation, I learned that you actually 181 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: prefer the term decentralized social technologies to the term Web three. 182 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about why you like 183 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:37,200 Speaker 1: describing it that way. Well, I mean Web three is 184 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:43,559 Speaker 1: a little bit limiting and has a focus that makes 185 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:48,280 Speaker 1: you think in financial terms. It makes you think of 186 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: an evolution of the Internet rather than the applications that 187 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: run on the Internet. And so I think decentralized as 188 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:04,239 Speaker 1: technology to me captures the notion that what we're creating 189 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: our technologies, but they also are technologies that are about 190 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,160 Speaker 1: how people organize and relate to each other. It captures 191 00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 1: the focus that I think that we should have on 192 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: social structures and social impact rather than just financial speculation. Um, 193 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 1: I think Web three overall is less about blockchains per 194 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: se than it is about the idea of innovating new 195 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 1: mechanisms of consensus building and social cooperation using digital tools. 196 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 1: Just to get specific for folks who may not have 197 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: your background, I've heard a couple of attempts to define 198 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: the term web three. One is to build a more humane, egalitarian, 199 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: and decentralized Internet where every individual has complete custody of 200 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 1: their data. So that's a theme that that seems to 201 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: run through a lot of definitions. Is this idea of 202 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: democratization of power. Power has become centralized in Web two 203 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,719 Speaker 1: to corporations, and the promise of Web three is to 204 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: kind of redistribute that power to individuals, which, by the way, 205 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:18,560 Speaker 1: was one of the promises of Web one, I think, right, 206 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: Just to be clear, I I think that the individual 207 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 1: focus is one interpretation. The focus I would take is 208 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: a diversity of communities, not individuals, And this is an 209 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 1: important tension in the discourse around Web three. Some people 210 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: imagine it more in terms of some kind of small 211 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: d democratic network based you know, collective self governance, and 212 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:51,880 Speaker 1: other people imagine it in terms of you know, anarcho 213 00:14:52,080 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 1: capitalist every person for themselves, ownership, property, etcetera. The concept 214 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 1: of Web three is fairly elastic, so it's it's a 215 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: contested space, right right, Okay, I want to pivot a 216 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: little bit to a couple of specific questions about aspects 217 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: of Web three that I've heard talked about. One is 218 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: this idea of owning our own data and benefiting from 219 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 1: it from selling it in some cases seems to have 220 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: been a central idea in the space, and I've seen 221 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: that you have expressed skept skepticism about that idea. Um, 222 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: why is that, Well, it's it's funny because Jarren Linier, 223 00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: who's one of my closest collaborators, and to a lesser extent, 224 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: I I think we're pretty central to kind of originating 225 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:49,280 Speaker 1: that mean. And yet, as as often happens, we think 226 00:15:49,320 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: it's been very misapplied and misunderstood. In particular straighten us out, Glenn. 227 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:01,200 Speaker 1: A lot of people when they think about you benefiting 228 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: financially from the value created by data that pertains to you, 229 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: they want to think of private property as their image 230 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 1: and model. But that's not a great metaphor here. And 231 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: the reason is that most data pertain to multiple people. 232 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: So is this call that you and I are having 233 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: my data or your data? Right? Um? Is my social 234 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: network my data? Well, actually not really. It's like it's 235 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: the data of me crossed, Like each link that constitutes 236 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: that social graph belongs to at least two people in 237 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: that group, right and so? And in fact, I would 238 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: contend that that's true of virtually all data. So data 239 00:16:54,320 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: is relational almost always. It represents things in a social contact. 240 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: It does not represent abstracted things that are the property 241 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 1: of a single person. So if we want to think 242 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: about data empowerment and data dignity, we can't think about 243 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: it in in terms of private property. We have to 244 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: think about it in terms of some structure of diverse 245 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: but collective self government. You know, a union is a 246 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: better image to have in your mind than is a house. Um, 247 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: the basic rhetoric of the space is wrong and broken, 248 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,159 Speaker 1: and if we pursue that direction, I think we're going 249 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: to end up back in the outcome that we started in, 250 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,160 Speaker 1: because there will be a race to the bottom where 251 00:17:50,200 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: everyone will know that someone who's part of that data 252 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:55,199 Speaker 1: will sell it, and so you might as well be 253 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: the one to sell it first and cheaper. That's really 254 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: interesting that had never occurred to me. Let me let 255 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 1: me push on that a little bit though, because you know, 256 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: one of the big problems in the world I think 257 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:11,359 Speaker 1: is created by social media, and specifically the business model 258 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: behind most social media companies, which is attention based, right, 259 00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,120 Speaker 1: and that attention is a personal thing, and you don't 260 00:18:19,119 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: benefit from that at all, And I guess I wonder 261 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: if there's a way for people to be compensated for 262 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: paying attention to things. I mean, so, first of all, 263 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: just to be clear, I'm a huge advocate of the 264 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: notion that the value that's currently being captured by large 265 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: platforms rightfully belongs to the communities of people who are 266 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: actually creating that value it on form So I'm getting 267 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: complete agreement on that. That being said, UM, I think 268 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: many of the simplistic ways of formulating what you just 269 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: said wouldn't really get us away from the bad outcomes 270 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: that we're facing. So UM, take the example of the 271 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: social media platforms. I don't think simply giving people a 272 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:17,000 Speaker 1: check in an undifferentiated way for their attention is going 273 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:20,879 Speaker 1: to get us past the polarization and so forth. But 274 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 1: I do think that there are changes to the business 275 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: model that really could get us past it. So like 276 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: the product that Facebook claims to be selling is connection. 277 00:19:33,960 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: But but connection and the social network and the graph, 278 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: these are not things that are valuable to individuals. There 279 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: are things that are valuable to the society that those 280 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 1: individuals together constitute. UM. And of course there's no one 281 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:51,320 Speaker 1: society that There's churches, and there's nations, and there's local 282 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, units, and all of these care about cohesion 283 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: and dynamism within their communities. And at present, these systems 284 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: are accomplishing the opposite of that. They're reinforcing divisions. And 285 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: if those organizations were you know, to replace the advertisers 286 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: as the customers of Facebook, and to pay for algorithms 287 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: and curation that built community and solidarity that did what 288 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 1: what Facebook claims to be trying to do in the 289 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: first place. Well, yeah, and even if Facebook wanted to 290 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: do it, it's business model is misaligned with its mission, 291 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,520 Speaker 1: and so it can't accomplish its goals without changing how 292 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:43,680 Speaker 1: it thinks about its financing approach. Another concept that gets 293 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: talked a lot about that's sort of related, but but 294 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 1: I think different in some important ways is the concept 295 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 1: of digital identity or digital personhood that seems to be 296 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: important in the space. And I've read that there are 297 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 1: lots of competing views here and some riffs between various 298 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: groups about the right way to handle digital identity or 299 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:10,800 Speaker 1: digital personhood. Is there a right way in your view? 300 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: So I'm a big believer in a theory that was 301 00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: put forward by a guy named George Zimmel. He was 302 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: one of the founders of sociology, and he had a 303 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 1: I think very brilliant observation, which is that there is 304 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: no such thing as a lot of political philosophy imagines 305 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: as sort of the pre social individual that you can 306 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: then liberate humans have throughout their entire history survived only 307 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 1: to the extent that they've lived in groups. And so 308 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: actually what happens with modernity is not the rediscovery of individuality, 309 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 1: but rather that society becomes more complex. So it used 310 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: to be that you would worship and mate and work 311 00:21:56,720 --> 00:22:00,360 Speaker 1: and eat all with the same people, and they were 312 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 1: your tribe. But as we get into more complex cities, 313 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: and in fact all the terms around democracy are connected 314 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 1: to city citizen as someone who lives in a city. Right, 315 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: So that the reason why this notion of a individual 316 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: citizen emerges is because now all those different social functions 317 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: separate out, and you become an individual because you're the 318 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: neat unique intersection of those different social groups that you're 319 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: a part of. And I'm a big believer that systems 320 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: of identity need to mirror that structure. The way that 321 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: you preserve privacy and still allow all the functions of 322 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 1: identity is by fragmenting the aspects of your identity among 323 00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: the different things that constitute you in your life, and 324 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: you know, defending the noess of those different spheres. And 325 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, this returns to the data union example. I 326 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: imagine data union but every person might be part of 327 00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,480 Speaker 1: several data unions that represent the different ways in which 328 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,199 Speaker 1: they participate. And I and I see data, you know, 329 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,199 Speaker 1: identity being handled in in a very similar way. Like 330 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: I'd love to see a future where rather than us 331 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,399 Speaker 1: having like one driver's license that represent us, where we 332 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,240 Speaker 1: have many different digital tokens, one coming from our work, 333 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,080 Speaker 1: one coming from like a distributed autonomous organization that we 334 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,400 Speaker 1: participated in, one coming from some political affiliation, and all 335 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 1: of these together knowing various aspects of ourselves that we 336 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: can present or reveal in appropriate social contexts. Right, you 337 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: sort of waived at this as you went by, but 338 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: just for listeners, like the danger of a single identity, 339 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: a single digital identity is security essentially, Is that right? 340 00:23:54,280 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: Or I mean security or privacy? Yeah, I mean so 341 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 1: there's there's ways to express it differently. So from a 342 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: security perspective, you're very reliant in that case on a 343 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: single point of failure, whatever institution issues that thing, getting 344 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: things right. And in fact, that's the reason why if 345 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,359 Speaker 1: you go an interview for an n essay, uh, you 346 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: know job, they're not going to care much about your passport, 347 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: like they know that that doesn't really work very well. 348 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:25,119 Speaker 1: They're gonna go and look for all your different social 349 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: relationships to figure out who you actually are. You know, 350 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 1: um so so like Yes, security absolutely, but it's also 351 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: it's absurd that for so many different contexts in our lives, 352 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,200 Speaker 1: we're presenting this one social security number that can link 353 00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:46,000 Speaker 1: us across all the different contexts. Most of the times 354 00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:47,760 Speaker 1: you give your social security a number of nothing to 355 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:52,640 Speaker 1: do with social security, and so by not planning explicitly 356 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:58,240 Speaker 1: for pluralistic identity systems, we end up with these totally 357 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:05,239 Speaker 1: inappropriate cross cut identity systems. Yeah, very interesting. Um, I 358 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: think this is related. You wrote a white paper about 359 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: something called soul bound tokens where you talk about them 360 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: as a way of encoding trust into the system. Can 361 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: you explain, first of all, what a soul bound token is. So, 362 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 1: soul bound tokens are non transferable and f t s 363 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,960 Speaker 1: their statements that are made by one digital signifier wallet 364 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 1: about another, and they can represent a sort of network 365 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: of social relations. But the potential of these is that 366 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: it makes it much easier for a wide range of organizations, individuals, 367 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: groups to issue credentials to each other, and therefore for 368 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,280 Speaker 1: you to have a intersecting set of you know, credentials 369 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: that together can constitute an identity in a context specific way, 370 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:01,919 Speaker 1: rather than having to rely on a singular institution to 371 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: give you one thing that you use everywhere. So a 372 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: soul bound token might be the thing that I used 373 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,760 Speaker 1: to join one of the unions that you talk about. Yeah, 374 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,840 Speaker 1: for example, like you, you you might get one from your university, 375 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,919 Speaker 1: one from your employer, one from uh, maybe every podcast 376 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: that you do. We issue each other a soul bound 377 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: token saying that we did it together, right, and that 378 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: that's like a CV, But unlike a CV, it's not 379 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: something that you have to send in a PDF and 380 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 1: so want us to read and then maybe o c 381 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: R and then verify whether it's right. There's like a 382 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: cryptographic signature indicating that for every one of those things, 383 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: the counterparty to that has said that they did this 384 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 1: thing with you, So it's inherently reliable UM, and that 385 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: can then be the basis of you getting admitted to 386 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 1: all kinds of different things. It can be a reputation 387 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: effectively that you can stick not a single dimensional reputation score, 388 00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: but a multidimensional representation of your self that you can 389 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:14,440 Speaker 1: use as the foundation for accessing some social system. Well, 390 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: I see, so you have many of these. This isn't 391 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: a one thing that you you have. All right, let's 392 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: pivot to the peril a bit. Um. What what do 393 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: you see as the biggest threats to the potential of 394 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: of Web three or or distributed social technologies. Well, so, 395 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: I think there's a long term ideological danger and there's 396 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: a bunch of near term harms that are being caused 397 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: by the system. There are groups of people such as 398 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: Peter theold Abology Screenavas and this guy Mensious mold Bug 399 00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: courtesy Arvan, who view all these technologies as a way 400 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: to undermine the authority, legitimacy, or even ability to colle 401 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: tax revenue or enforced the laws of governments. And not 402 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: not just governments, but any social institution, a church, a union, 403 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: a co op. They're very openly hostile to all of 404 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,919 Speaker 1: those types of organizations, and they want to get to 405 00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: a world that liberates quote the individual unquote from those 406 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: institutions and gives them selves sovereignty um. And they mean 407 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: that like really seriously and literally so sovereign individual imagines 408 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:37,159 Speaker 1: that there are literally a hundred million sovereigns um. That 409 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: have no accountability to any external social authority. And that 410 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,960 Speaker 1: is a terrifying possibility. And even if something like that 411 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: isn't actually empowered, it gives a cover, a tech sheen. Two. 412 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: You know, everything for isis to the sorts of people 413 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 1: who don't pay their taxes because they say that the 414 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: government's legitimate. It gives like a cool factor to these 415 00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 1: really like basically terrorist organizations, anti anti social order, anti 416 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: social groups. So that's really scary, um and uh. And 417 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: there are more modest versions of that that are already 418 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: playing out. There are people who are in a self 419 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: sovereign way managing their own wallets and who are getting 420 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:38,239 Speaker 1: physically assaulted by people who get them to give them 421 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: their keys or get hacked. In a more subtle way. 422 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: There's a variety of criminal activity that goes on, especially 423 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,959 Speaker 1: in the sort of more privacy oriented parts of this space. 424 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: You know, some of the protocols, especially those operating proof 425 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: of work, do a huge amount of environmental harm, and 426 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: there's an enormous inference times. Yeah, there's an enormous amount 427 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: of financial speculation going on that's creating a huge concentration 428 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:12,720 Speaker 1: of wealth and exacerbating problems for many vulnerable people. So 429 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,160 Speaker 1: these are really bad outcomes that are being facilitated by 430 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: the space at the same time as it's opening up 431 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: experimentation with much better possible futures. Yeah, and it feels 432 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 1: like the financialization aspect gets all of the press right, 433 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 1: Like that's the thing that people focus on, is the money, 434 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: and I want to pursue that for a minute, because 435 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: from the cheap seats, it seems to me that that 436 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 1: venture capitalists have latched onto this idea of decentralization in 437 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: a way that feels primarily like marketing to me. Honestly, 438 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: you know, we saw that happen the first time in 439 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: the transition from Web one to Web two, where it 440 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: started as a very decentralized thing. There were a lot 441 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: of people, you know, talking about the power of the 442 00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: Internet and the power to distribute information, to democratize access 443 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: to information, to empower individual people, and that all went away. 444 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,200 Speaker 1: And let me nuance that a little bit, because I 445 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 1: actually do. I think it's a little bit too tough 446 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: on the VC side. And the reason is that there's 447 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: a wonderful article by J. C. R. Licklighter called Computers 448 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: and Government in nineteen seventy nine in which he said 449 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: that the Internet was meant for trusted transactions, it was 450 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 1: meant for identity, it was meant for sharing of computational resources, 451 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: and that the protocols that have been built by the 452 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: public and academic consortia covered just the barest bones proofs 453 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,400 Speaker 1: of concept of what he thought you needed to make 454 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: the Internet work. Um, and that if if the these 455 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 1: multisectoral efforts didn't invest two achieve those goals, that it 456 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 1: would be colonized by monopolis. So it was a choice. 457 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: It was a political choice that was made not to invest, 458 00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: which got us to where we are. More than was 459 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: the choice or ill intent of venture capitalists. They operated 460 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: within a system where the only way that they could 461 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 1: fund functionality was by raising money from private investors. And 462 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: I don't think they're evil for having done that, but 463 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: I do think that our society made the wrong choice by, 464 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: you know, pursuing this neoliberal path that made it inevitable 465 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: that monopolies would own these critical parts of our social infrastructure. Well, 466 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: I guess what I'm saying is, what about the movie 467 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: that we're seeing now is different? I don't think a 468 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: lot is different in the US and Taiwan, it's very different. 469 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: It's it's a bit distant, it's a different cultural context, 470 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: but it represents the best version of the potential of 471 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: this space. Um. There's a digital Minister there named Audrey 472 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 1: Tonge who's the first transgender minister of a major country 473 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: if you consider Taiwan to be and I know that's 474 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: a point of controversy, and uh, she was a leader 475 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: of the occupying movement there, and she's built a participatory 476 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: democratic platform for the country that a quarter of the 477 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: population or monthly active users on and really taken a 478 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: chunk of the time that we waste hating each other 479 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: on Twitter and funneled it into people solving real public problems. 480 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: To me, that's the most hopeful version because the public 481 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: and social sectors have made massive investments, um, and they've 482 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,600 Speaker 1: really done exactly what they should do. So I don't 483 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: think the story is playing out differently now. And I 484 00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: think that whatever the idealism of people in the web 485 00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,640 Speaker 1: three space, unless there's serious engagement from the social and 486 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: public sectors, you'll just get a repetition of the same thing. However, 487 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 1: there is a hope that we can help governments, help 488 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: social movements understand that and do something different this time, 489 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: return to something closer to the model that built the 490 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: original Internet. Yeah, well that would be wonderful. Any chance 491 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 1: of that happening more, let's say, holistically in the US, Well, 492 00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,240 Speaker 1: I think you need cultural change to make the political change, 493 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: and so we need to inspire people with visions of alternatives. 494 00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: And I think that to some extent the Web three 495 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,160 Speaker 1: spaces managing to do parts of that. But I think, 496 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 1: you know, the stories like Audrey's story are going to 497 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,319 Speaker 1: be even more powerful. So let's just talk about the 498 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: future and and and predictions that you have for the 499 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: future of Web three or these decentralized social technologies, Like 500 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,760 Speaker 1: can you paint a best case scenario and a worst 501 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,799 Speaker 1: case scenario just so people can understand the choice that 502 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: we're faced with. I mean, I think the best case 503 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,480 Speaker 1: scenario is that sort of all the liberal democracies get 504 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 1: to roughly Taiwan's level, which let's say that that takes 505 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 1: maybe ten of the effort that we spend on social 506 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: media doing stupid division reinforcing things, and moves that into 507 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: people doing the online equivalent of participating in town halls, 508 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: you know, building projects together, solving real public problems. Bridging 509 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 1: divide civic engagement just ten to fifteen percent of the time. 510 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: Just that we're spending on politics online, I think would 511 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,200 Speaker 1: be enough. And through that there's also large investments made 512 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: by the democratic world's governments to build fundamental infrastructures or 513 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: identity data sharing, etcetera. We start utilizing all the machines 514 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 1: and data that are basically idle and siloed right now 515 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: because we're able to have privacy preserving protocols that let 516 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: it be used and let people get value from it 517 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: without it being covered up by some proprietary service, and 518 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: that enables us to find way more effective ways, cheaper 519 00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:31,280 Speaker 1: ways to solve climate problems. That allows us to defeat 520 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 1: pandemics like they did in Taiwan, where they had like 521 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: only a couple dozen deaths and they grew at five 522 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: percent throughout the pandemic and have less than three percent inflation. 523 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 1: So we're able to tackle problems as as they've been 524 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 1: able to tackle them. Because of all this distributed intelligence 525 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: that we have, people start building bridges and unions and 526 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: so forth across lines of political division, and that scrambles 527 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: our political spectrum, and then you know, new voting systems 528 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: start to creep their way in that bridge divides and 529 00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 1: then help people reach consensus and that reduces polarizations. Right. 530 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:13,480 Speaker 1: I think those are all really plausible outcomes that we've 531 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:18,520 Speaker 1: seen played out in a real world context. I think, 532 00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: you know, the worst case is that the dreams of 533 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: the sovereign individual types get realized, which is to say, 534 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 1: they become such strong cryptography and so many financial transactions 535 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: that governments can't see anything. People can evade any taxes 536 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,920 Speaker 1: they want, and that breaks down all public services. It 537 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,319 Speaker 1: breaks down, uh, the ability to do law enforcement, to 538 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: pay for national defense, etcetera. And the only people who 539 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: are able to maintain those things are authoritarian regimes and 540 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: extremely wealthy corporations are individuals. Those organizations then gain all 541 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 1: the ability to coordinate and constant traded power. Everything ends 542 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: up running through those organizations. They end up in conflict 543 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: with each other, but there's no one to adjudicate that 544 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,480 Speaker 1: conflict because the UN is broken down and whatever, and 545 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: so you end up with some kind of global scale 546 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 1: conflict without limits on weapons. Okay, alright, that that would suck. 547 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: Let's not do that. Um so uh, Glenn. Last thing, 548 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: and this is kind of an experiment we tend to 549 00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: focus on individual companies or organizations on this show and 550 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: really try to determine what is the delta between word indeed. 551 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,200 Speaker 1: So we've graded a scale called the B S scale. 552 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 1: It goes from zero to one, zero being the best score. 553 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:53,240 Speaker 1: Zero BS zero delta between word indeed and a hundred 554 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,600 Speaker 1: percent fullshit. Um, if you were to give the Web 555 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 1: three diaspora a B yes score right now, would you 556 00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,240 Speaker 1: be willing to do that? Yeah, so I'd say, I'd say, 557 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: But the problem is that, because Web three means these 558 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,080 Speaker 1: opposite things, I think you could easily defend the answer 559 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 1: of zero percent or a hundred percent because because uh, 560 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,440 Speaker 1: you know, you've got a set of people who wants 561 00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: the space to be like wrecking all social institutions, and 562 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,440 Speaker 1: you've got a part of the space that wants it 563 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: to be about um, creative new ways of coordination and 564 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,399 Speaker 1: reimagining democracy. And it's kind of doing half of each 565 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,520 Speaker 1: of those things. And that's because kind of half of 566 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,400 Speaker 1: the people are aiming for those things. So they're all 567 00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: kind of doing a hundred percent of their missions. It's 568 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: just commissions are opposite to each other. Yeah, a bunch 569 00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: of zero bullshitters all pulling in opposite directions. Yeah, that's 570 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: very interesting. Thank you for that answer that was That 571 00:39:57,360 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: was great and this is a great conversation, Glenn. I 572 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:05,400 Speaker 1: really really appreciate you spending time. Yeah, thanks for Glen. 573 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:10,839 Speaker 1: Web three isn't about decentralization or even data sovereignty. It's 574 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: about the potential to make society better. The promise of 575 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: Web three is really an opportunity to reimagine the whole 576 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,480 Speaker 1: system as we enter into a future more and more 577 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,719 Speaker 1: determined by the shape of the Internet. Do we want 578 00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:29,320 Speaker 1: to maintain the status quo or redefine our social tools 579 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: and identities. Will we bring our old ideals with us 580 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: into Web three, or can we take the opportunity to 581 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: re examine our values and set up new systems that 582 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:45,080 Speaker 1: shape our interactions for the better. So which future will 583 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,440 Speaker 1: we choose? The one where everyone lives just for themselves 584 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:52,719 Speaker 1: and we descend into lawless chaos, or the future where 585 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:55,160 Speaker 1: we use the Internet as a tool to come together. 586 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 1: We've invited two additional experts, a Web three convert and 587 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: a Web to be critic to help parse this out 588 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:19,680 Speaker 1: right after the break, Do you think it's possible that 589 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,240 Speaker 1: like our data can be decentralized and like taken away 590 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:25,560 Speaker 1: from people like Mark Zuckerbrick. I guess I have to 591 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 1: think about, like what the ramifications of the decentralized system 592 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:31,640 Speaker 1: would be. I think it would be awesome. I'd like 593 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,439 Speaker 1: to believe it could be decentralized. It's a great dream 594 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 1: to have. It feels almost kind of like an impossibility, 595 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 1: especially start of the way things are chending, just like 596 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,040 Speaker 1: you have these being sort of like Internet conglomerate. Sorry, yeah, 597 00:41:42,040 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: at the center of everything, folks. I am very excited 598 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,680 Speaker 1: to introduce two experts who are going to help us 599 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: continue to unpack both the promise and the peril of 600 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 1: Web three. Our first guest is software engineer and notable 601 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: crypt skeptic Molly White. Molly, thanks for being here and 602 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,720 Speaker 1: welcome to calling bullshit. Thanks for having me. So, Molly, 603 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: could you tell us a little bit about your background, 604 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,120 Speaker 1: like how you got into software, and then maybe a 605 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,919 Speaker 1: little bit about the roots of your skepticism. Sure, um, so, 606 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,879 Speaker 1: I am a software engineer, and you know, I've sort 607 00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: of been a computer geek my whole life. Recently started 608 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: researching Web three and cryptocurrency is a little bit more broadly. 609 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 1: Last year I started a website called Web three is 610 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,640 Speaker 1: Going Just Great, which is a sort of sarcastic title 611 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:45,720 Speaker 1: UM for a project that tracks all of the disasters 612 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: that are happening in Web three but also in the 613 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,000 Speaker 1: cryptocurrency and blockchain industry is more broadly, you must be 614 00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:58,760 Speaker 1: busy these days. I am very busy these days. Cool 615 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,360 Speaker 1: More on that very soon, but first I need to 616 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,800 Speaker 1: introduce our second guest, Vlad Ginsburg, who is the founder 617 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: and CEO of the n f T platform block Party. Vlad, 618 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,359 Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. 619 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,440 Speaker 1: It's an honor to be here. So, Flood, can you 620 00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about your background, because I 621 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: know you started out in the art and then how 622 00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: you came to the Web three space. Sure, they did 623 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:31,720 Speaker 1: start out in the fine art industry, and over time 624 00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: I became familiar with block chains of cryptocurrency as there 625 00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:39,359 Speaker 1: was an increasing amount of buzz about the potential for 626 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:43,600 Speaker 1: some of those technologies to disrupt the art market. And 627 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: the more I learned, the more I became excited about 628 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:52,360 Speaker 1: the possibilities and eventually made the switch to be full 629 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:56,720 Speaker 1: time in the blockchain industry, thinking about fine art instead 630 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,000 Speaker 1: of vice versa. So thank you both for being here again. 631 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,320 Speaker 1: And and this episode just for benefit of listeners, is 632 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: a little bit different than most of our episodes because 633 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: it's the first time that we've taken on a sector 634 00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 1: or an industry rather than an individual company or organization. 635 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 1: So usually at this point in the show we would 636 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,840 Speaker 1: have called BS and we'd spend this whole panel looking 637 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,960 Speaker 1: at ways to fix that BS, and we do want 638 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:24,839 Speaker 1: to get into some of that today, But I thought 639 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: I would just start out by asking you both to 640 00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:32,280 Speaker 1: give us your definition of the term web three, because 641 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,319 Speaker 1: it's a little hard to get agreement on that term. 642 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:40,440 Speaker 1: So what does the term web three mean to you? 643 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:45,480 Speaker 1: So I would I would define web three as permissionless 644 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: digital ownership. I would also perhaps add the right to 645 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,160 Speaker 1: self sovereignty on the web. Talk about what you mean 646 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: by that. So I think disintribigating the third party between 647 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,839 Speaker 1: creator and and the market around them is I think 648 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: the big promise, because oftentimes what we see in well, 649 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: let's say Web two, right is creators are putting out content, 650 00:45:13,239 --> 00:45:15,960 Speaker 1: but the content that they're putting out really lives in 651 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: a third party platform that is monetizing the content or 652 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,279 Speaker 1: otherwise taking a lot of ownership over it, and the 653 00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:28,080 Speaker 1: creators are right, Yes, that would be That would be 654 00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,720 Speaker 1: a good way of putting it. And it doesn't seem 655 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,840 Speaker 1: that the creator is self sovereign in this natively digital space. 656 00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:43,400 Speaker 1: And by self sovereign you mean essentially their own prestanding entity, 657 00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: right with no no intermediaries between you and the market. Okay, Molly, 658 00:45:50,880 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 1: I want to I want to pivot to you and 659 00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:56,080 Speaker 1: ask you next, how do you define the term web three? 660 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,400 Speaker 1: I think the most important thing to understand is that 661 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,760 Speaker 1: web three is a marketing term more than anything. So 662 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:08,760 Speaker 1: it has been a pretty successful, i would say, marketing 663 00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:13,880 Speaker 1: campaign to sort of rebrand crypto after sort of some 664 00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,399 Speaker 1: boom and bus cycles made people a little bit more 665 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: wary of crypto as a concept, and so by redefining 666 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,839 Speaker 1: it to be something that sounds like it will be 667 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,719 Speaker 1: the future of the web, a lot of entrepreneurs and 668 00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:31,879 Speaker 1: venture capitalists and other folks have been able to get 669 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,960 Speaker 1: people to buy in, like quite literally buy in to 670 00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:40,160 Speaker 1: this idea of web three. If I find myself needing 671 00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,400 Speaker 1: to sort of draw boundary around what is and is 672 00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,400 Speaker 1: not Web three, you know, if I'm looking at an 673 00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: individual project, typically I look for. Is it sort of 674 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,400 Speaker 1: a web project, so something beyond just like a cryptocurrency 675 00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,560 Speaker 1: token doesn't have some sort of social community on the web, 676 00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:02,040 Speaker 1: Or is it trying to use blockchain for something like 677 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:08,280 Speaker 1: data storage beyond just transactions, and is there a blockchain involved. 678 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:13,000 Speaker 1: So Web three is pretty much inseparable from the idea 679 00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:17,440 Speaker 1: of blockchains. And although a lot of people working on 680 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:22,560 Speaker 1: Web three will use much broader terminology like decentralization and 681 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 1: self sovereignty, they're typically referring to blockchains. With that. The 682 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,399 Speaker 1: idea of decentralization and self sovereignty on the web are 683 00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: nothing new, uh, and certainly not anything exclusive to this 684 00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:38,120 Speaker 1: idea of Web three, but they are terms that are 685 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,920 Speaker 1: coming up a lot in those conversations. Yeah, are there 686 00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,200 Speaker 1: positive aspects that you see to it? Or are you 687 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:50,360 Speaker 1: completely are you essentially a rejector of the entire premise. 688 00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,880 Speaker 1: I think that the most positive aspects of Web three, 689 00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,400 Speaker 1: and you know, just crypto and blockchains more broadly, is 690 00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:03,960 Speaker 1: that they have brought attention to issues in the Web 691 00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,680 Speaker 1: that I think are really important. You know, the idea, 692 00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:10,879 Speaker 1: for example, of large tech company is really monopolizing how 693 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: the web operates today is a very serious issue I 694 00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,239 Speaker 1: think in the Web, and it's one that a lot 695 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: of people who are working in Web three are also 696 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,439 Speaker 1: talking about. So I think there's some really shared goals 697 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:27,839 Speaker 1: there between myself and other sort of Web advocates and 698 00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,160 Speaker 1: people who are working on Web three. But I also 699 00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:35,040 Speaker 1: think that the idea that blockchains will somehow form the 700 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 1: foundation of a solution to these problems, uh is pretty overblown. 701 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,640 Speaker 1: I think a lot of the issues with the Web 702 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 1: really come down to societal and policy issues beyond just 703 00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,160 Speaker 1: the technical ones. And uh, you know, it's pretty much 704 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:59,520 Speaker 1: impossible to apply a purely technical solution to societal and 705 00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:04,480 Speaker 1: policy problems. And I think that there are some serious 706 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:08,439 Speaker 1: negative externalities when it comes to crypto block chains Web 707 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:13,880 Speaker 1: three that are extremely detrimental to where the Web should 708 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:17,479 Speaker 1: be going. Yeah, I actually find some of the most 709 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:22,400 Speaker 1: evangelical folks about Web three end up agreeing more often 710 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,800 Speaker 1: than not about some of the problems of the externalities 711 00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:32,319 Speaker 1: that come up. Oftentimes I will find myself thinking about, um, well, 712 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:36,960 Speaker 1: maybe we're at really Web two point five, because so 713 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:42,720 Speaker 1: much of what Web three requires is really just Web 714 00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,680 Speaker 1: two plus some things like blockchains and n f t 715 00:49:46,920 --> 00:49:52,000 Speaker 1: s and technologies that are really interesting but still very 716 00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:56,320 Speaker 1: much under development. Just following on your your point about 717 00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,799 Speaker 1: Web two point five, I guess really the question that 718 00:49:58,880 --> 00:50:03,000 Speaker 1: caused me to one to do this episode is, you know, 719 00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,840 Speaker 1: you hear the definitions around this space as being about decentralization, 720 00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:12,040 Speaker 1: about self sovereignty. The phrase I used that I've picked 721 00:50:12,080 --> 00:50:14,800 Speaker 1: up to build a more human, egalitarian to centralized internet 722 00:50:14,840 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 1: where every individual has complete custody of their data stuff 723 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,360 Speaker 1: like that. Right, you hear the promise of that, and 724 00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:24,919 Speaker 1: then I'm watching money flow in and venture capitalists start 725 00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,759 Speaker 1: to invest a ton of money. And that's exactly what 726 00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:31,000 Speaker 1: happened in the transition between Web one and Web two, 727 00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: right Like Web one was sort of the wild West, 728 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:41,280 Speaker 1: very uh democratic, very egalitarian, I mean, I guess to 729 00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:44,440 Speaker 1: to the extent that you had access to the technology 730 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:48,880 Speaker 1: to connect yourself to the web. And then it became centralized. 731 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:54,040 Speaker 1: Right the venture capitalists rolled in, They started making investments, 732 00:50:54,160 --> 00:51:00,560 Speaker 1: and entrepreneurs built these giant platforms which, now, as you said, 733 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,920 Speaker 1: glad tax people on the way through right on both sides, 734 00:51:05,080 --> 00:51:07,279 Speaker 1: in some cases one side of the equation on in 735 00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,240 Speaker 1: in some cases both sides. What is going to prevent 736 00:51:12,120 --> 00:51:17,440 Speaker 1: that same thing happening with Web three. I agree with 737 00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,200 Speaker 1: you that when you look around the let's say Web 738 00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:25,560 Speaker 1: three industry, and you see so much of the same 739 00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,920 Speaker 1: investment dollars that supported Web two supporting large platforms in 740 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,279 Speaker 1: Web three, well, you're still kind of doing the same thing. 741 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,200 Speaker 1: You know, you're you're waving this banner of self sovereignty 742 00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:40,640 Speaker 1: and you're waving this banner of decentralization. But some of 743 00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:44,400 Speaker 1: the biggest platforms in Web three, you're still using their servers, 744 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:47,920 Speaker 1: You're still very much on their platform, And so I 745 00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 1: think it's a little bit more effective to see the 746 00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:54,040 Speaker 1: potential of Web three less as Web Tube versus Web three, 747 00:51:54,160 --> 00:51:56,680 Speaker 1: and a little more as well. Web two, other than 748 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 1: social was also really where e commerce exploded. With Web three, 749 00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,040 Speaker 1: it's a place where n f T commerce is exploding, 750 00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:08,839 Speaker 1: and we're able to tell creators you can build your 751 00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:12,040 Speaker 1: own commerce around yourself. Now that's not really happening on 752 00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:15,440 Speaker 1: some of the bigger platforms, but you can see the 753 00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:21,320 Speaker 1: promise with the folks that are buying into the possibilities. Molly, 754 00:52:21,560 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 1: any thoughts on that. I have a lot of thoughts 755 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:29,840 Speaker 1: on that. Um. I think the comment about venture capitalists, uh, 756 00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,600 Speaker 1: sort of supporting this move into Web three is a 757 00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:37,359 Speaker 1: really important one to focus on a lot of the 758 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:43,200 Speaker 1: talk around the potential of Web three and the decentralization, 759 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:46,799 Speaker 1: the return of ownership of data, you know, from these 760 00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,960 Speaker 1: huge tech companies into the hands of the users, the 761 00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:54,120 Speaker 1: move away from giant tech monopolies. The same talking points 762 00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: are being used by venture capitalists who have supported these 763 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,560 Speaker 1: technologies that really landed us in the Web two era. 764 00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:06,520 Speaker 1: And it's pretty wild to see people taking at face 765 00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,719 Speaker 1: value these claims by enormous venture capital firms that they 766 00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:13,919 Speaker 1: will somehow be acting out of sort of the good 767 00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:19,160 Speaker 1: of the broader web users rather than in the efforts 768 00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,840 Speaker 1: of enriching themselves, which is what venture capitalists are paid 769 00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:24,960 Speaker 1: to do. I mean, they are paid to make money, right. 770 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,800 Speaker 1: In addition to that, I think it's also really important 771 00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,080 Speaker 1: to look at um the claims about how Web three 772 00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,480 Speaker 1: is somehow empowering creators in a way that they have 773 00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:40,200 Speaker 1: previously been unable to experience in Web two. There's not 774 00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:45,400 Speaker 1: an issue in Web two with creators not being able 775 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:51,240 Speaker 1: to host their own work, receive payment for their work, 776 00:53:51,960 --> 00:53:56,400 Speaker 1: you know, solicit income from their fans. This is all 777 00:53:56,440 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: possible in Web two. The requirement and I guess for 778 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:05,719 Speaker 1: creators to use huge platforms, you know, the spotifyes of 779 00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:07,839 Speaker 1: the world and things like that to reach their fan 780 00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:11,960 Speaker 1: bases um is largely because of the sort of monopolization 781 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,600 Speaker 1: of attention that happens in Web two, where it's really 782 00:54:14,640 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: hard to just like start up your own standal and 783 00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:20,680 Speaker 1: website as a musician and actually reach people. You you're 784 00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:24,160 Speaker 1: sort of beholding to these platforms. What Web three is 785 00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:30,200 Speaker 1: doing is really creating new ways of artists to distribute 786 00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,120 Speaker 1: their work. But the distribution of their work is not 787 00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:36,200 Speaker 1: the problem. You know, We've had that solution in this 788 00:54:36,239 --> 00:54:38,080 Speaker 1: sort of Web two world, and now if they wanted 789 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 1: to do it using n f T s or a blockchain, 790 00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,160 Speaker 1: they can do that too. But it's nothing particularly new, 791 00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:47,040 Speaker 1: and the issue that has been holding back creators in 792 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,319 Speaker 1: Web two still very much exists in Web three, and 793 00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,800 Speaker 1: we're seeing it play out all over again with massive 794 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,759 Speaker 1: platforms like open Sea as an n f T platform 795 00:54:56,800 --> 00:55:00,600 Speaker 1: and other various sort of gatekeepers. Really a monopo realizing 796 00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:05,719 Speaker 1: the ability of creators to actually reach people. And as 797 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:08,040 Speaker 1: you might expect, you look at open see and you 798 00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:10,360 Speaker 1: look at its venture capital funding, and you see some 799 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,919 Speaker 1: really familiar names. You see Andrews and Horowitz, who has 800 00:55:13,960 --> 00:55:18,160 Speaker 1: backed Facebook and Instagram and all of these major platforms 801 00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:21,640 Speaker 1: that have monopolized attention and Web two, and they're suddenly 802 00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:25,720 Speaker 1: decrying those same platforms in the hopes of getting people 803 00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,319 Speaker 1: to believe that they're now not doing the exact same 804 00:55:28,360 --> 00:55:33,480 Speaker 1: thing all over again. Vlad, and I'd love to hear 805 00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,839 Speaker 1: your take on that, um, you know, given what you're 806 00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:42,040 Speaker 1: up to at at block party. Absolutely, and and and again. 807 00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:45,319 Speaker 1: This is where I see myself oftentimes agreeing on some 808 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 1: foundational pieces with skeptics and encouraging folks to maybe reject 809 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: things like open see because they are extrapolating things like 810 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,240 Speaker 1: the attention economy from Web two into what we're trying 811 00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:04,160 Speaker 1: to build in Web three, which is a creator economy. 812 00:56:04,400 --> 00:56:07,160 Speaker 1: Let's look at the hot issue right now today as 813 00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:12,680 Speaker 1: we record creator royalties are the big burning topic in 814 00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:15,080 Speaker 1: the Web three space. To give a little bit of 815 00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,879 Speaker 1: context to that, one of the things that smart contracts 816 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:27,000 Speaker 1: and the blockchain can offer the creator is a royalty 817 00:56:27,040 --> 00:56:32,120 Speaker 1: structure on subsequent transactions that you are not trusting a 818 00:56:32,200 --> 00:56:34,759 Speaker 1: third party to divvy up your royalty back to the 819 00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:39,520 Speaker 1: original creator. But you're simply asking some code to do that. 820 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,719 Speaker 1: That's the idea of permissionless, of trust less. You don't 821 00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,840 Speaker 1: have to trust a smart contract. You just kind of 822 00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:50,040 Speaker 1: have to program it to do something. Somebody like me, 823 00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:52,840 Speaker 1: as much as I evangelize the space might call bullshit 824 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:57,319 Speaker 1: on certain platforms, I include Open Seeing this. Sure they 825 00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,839 Speaker 1: pay out royalties to creators, but they pay out royalties 826 00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,040 Speaker 1: on their servers. It's still their internal garden doing the 827 00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,520 Speaker 1: calculation paying it out. And now we were looking at 828 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,239 Speaker 1: the last twelve months where crypto has taken a backslide 829 00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:17,080 Speaker 1: and every company is looking for more revenue. So marketplaces, 830 00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,880 Speaker 1: including now there's some push and pull it open See. 831 00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,080 Speaker 1: But a lot of marketplaces are saying, we're going to 832 00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,560 Speaker 1: kill the royalty because we don't want to lose five 833 00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,200 Speaker 1: of the revenue of a of a transaction. We want 834 00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,680 Speaker 1: to keep that five percent. So creators are raising their 835 00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:34,440 Speaker 1: hands and saying, but wait a minute, that was the 836 00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:36,160 Speaker 1: whole that was one of the that was one of 837 00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,480 Speaker 1: the key features of us. What are we doing here? 838 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,040 Speaker 1: And so what you're seeing now is these creators that 839 00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 1: were sold this promise, they're asking themselves, well, wait, is 840 00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:49,800 Speaker 1: Web three bullshit? Or are certain companies and Web three bullshit? 841 00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:56,840 Speaker 1: It's not necessarily the entire space, it's individual players within 842 00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:01,800 Speaker 1: that space that are creating the issue. Molly, what's your 843 00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:05,280 Speaker 1: take on on that. I think it's possible for both 844 00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:10,600 Speaker 1: things to be true. Um, the space itself has inherent flaws, 845 00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:15,200 Speaker 1: and that these centralized platforms and you know, major players 846 00:58:15,320 --> 00:58:19,520 Speaker 1: are particularly bad. But one thing that I sort of 847 00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:23,760 Speaker 1: noticed when we're talking about decentralizing and f T platforms 848 00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,560 Speaker 1: is what I mentioned earlier, which is that the issue 849 00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:29,880 Speaker 1: is really not with the distribution or the payment rails 850 00:58:29,960 --> 00:58:33,960 Speaker 1: when it comes to creators monetizing their work. What is 851 00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:38,360 Speaker 1: difficult is getting people to actually find my work, you know, 852 00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,720 Speaker 1: if I don't already have a following somehow, usually built 853 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,080 Speaker 1: through these large platforms, then telling someone to hey, it 854 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:47,720 Speaker 1: comes see my website, you know, and download my music, 855 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,760 Speaker 1: it's impossible to get out there in any sort of 856 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:55,440 Speaker 1: substantial way. You're really relying on social media, um, you know, 857 00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:59,720 Speaker 1: music distribution platforms to get in front of people, and 858 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:03,240 Speaker 1: that same problem exists on Web three, and you also 859 00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:07,000 Speaker 1: have the same distribution problem. It is a different technology 860 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:09,640 Speaker 1: So if you particularly like blockchains and you want to 861 00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,760 Speaker 1: create a n f T out of your song, that's 862 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,080 Speaker 1: an option to you, but it is not particularly revolutionary. 863 00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,760 Speaker 1: That's actually somewhere where I would jump in now as 864 00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,200 Speaker 1: somebody that really believes in this stuff. And I feel 865 00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:27,440 Speaker 1: much more comfortable given my background UM talking about visual artists, 866 00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:32,280 Speaker 1: and I don't disagree at all that it's been possible 867 00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:37,400 Speaker 1: to sell natively digital art prior to blockchains. That said, 868 00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,120 Speaker 1: I've spent time in the art industry and I've seen 869 00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:47,280 Speaker 1: really wonderful works by the names that you've heard of, Solvere, Dolly, 870 00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:50,560 Speaker 1: Andy Warhol. These artists were around in the early days 871 00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,760 Speaker 1: of the computer and they did create digital artwork. But 872 00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:58,120 Speaker 1: it's really tough to sell it. It's really tough to 873 00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:03,080 Speaker 1: create a culture of collectorship around it. And while UM 874 01:00:03,320 --> 01:00:08,000 Speaker 1: Web one and Web two have given creators the tools 875 01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:12,880 Speaker 1: to publish natively digital art on the Internet and distribute 876 01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:18,160 Speaker 1: it and disseminate it, never until Web three has a 877 01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:25,560 Speaker 1: culture of collectorship been able to grow organically around the 878 01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,560 Speaker 1: idea of digital art. And we get to a place 879 01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:32,360 Speaker 1: now where we're telling photographers and digital artists you don't 880 01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:35,720 Speaker 1: need to step outside of the medium to sell your work, 881 01:00:36,160 --> 01:00:39,320 Speaker 1: you can exist on your own. And we come back 882 01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:42,120 Speaker 1: to this idea of well, now we're starting to see 883 01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,840 Speaker 1: companies like Manifold, companies like I hope block Party to 884 01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:48,880 Speaker 1: tell creators, hey, it's actually really easy to manage your 885 01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,520 Speaker 1: own smart contract and set your own fee structure and 886 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:55,080 Speaker 1: set your own royalty structure. So the successful musicians that 887 01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:59,320 Speaker 1: we speak with in in um in the web three 888 01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:04,640 Speaker 1: space are ones that are successfully building communities. They are 889 01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:06,920 Speaker 1: thinking about their n f T s less as songs 890 01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,640 Speaker 1: and more about I have put a token that I 891 01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:15,040 Speaker 1: originated into your wallet, and now I'm able to see 892 01:01:15,120 --> 01:01:17,880 Speaker 1: every wallet that has one of my tokens, and I 893 01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:22,120 Speaker 1: can now tell those wallets come join me on on 894 01:01:22,160 --> 01:01:25,920 Speaker 1: this platform where you can communicate. Come you can have 895 01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:30,200 Speaker 1: access to things that I'm creating digitally as I create them. 896 01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:32,720 Speaker 1: I can air drop you things, and you are building 897 01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:36,760 Speaker 1: this network around yourself. So I've seen musicians do this 898 01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:41,800 Speaker 1: do this quite successfully. I think that's also not particularly 899 01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:45,520 Speaker 1: unique to Web three. I mean, creators have been creating 900 01:01:45,560 --> 01:01:48,200 Speaker 1: communities like that for a very long time. You can 901 01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:49,880 Speaker 1: look at I mean I follow a bunch of people, 902 01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,160 Speaker 1: for example, on Patreon, who I support because I love 903 01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:57,600 Speaker 1: their work. There's the same benefits that are being described 904 01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:00,480 Speaker 1: in web three, and there's nothing that paid Treon is 905 01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:03,840 Speaker 1: really doing that I can't actually just do myself if 906 01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:06,919 Speaker 1: I want to. That is possible in the same way 907 01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,280 Speaker 1: that it would be possible for me to go write 908 01:02:09,280 --> 01:02:11,520 Speaker 1: a smart contract to do a lot of the same things, 909 01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,600 Speaker 1: and it requires very similar sort of levels of effort 910 01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:17,600 Speaker 1: as well. I think can I can I make an 911 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:19,720 Speaker 1: observation maybe to both of you and have you call 912 01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:22,080 Speaker 1: bullshit on me. But one of the things that I'm 913 01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:26,400 Speaker 1: sitting here thinking about is maybe, like one of the 914 01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:30,320 Speaker 1: things is we've trained people to do the easy thing, 915 01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,720 Speaker 1: and it's super easy for them to find music and 916 01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:36,840 Speaker 1: then downloaded and listen to it. It's very easy for 917 01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:38,960 Speaker 1: me to get on Amazon and find a thing that 918 01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:43,360 Speaker 1: I want. And at some level, aren't we also or 919 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:48,240 Speaker 1: don't we need to ask consumers, like regular people people 920 01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:52,640 Speaker 1: who buy things, to actually start pushing back on this 921 01:02:52,760 --> 01:02:57,840 Speaker 1: idea of convenience, because that notion of making it easy 922 01:02:58,240 --> 01:03:02,840 Speaker 1: is sort of the ultimate engine behind these giant platforms, right. 923 01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,040 Speaker 1: I think that's really true, and I think that there 924 01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,160 Speaker 1: is a lot of value in pushing consumers to be 925 01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,880 Speaker 1: conscious of the ramifications of their decisions. So I think 926 01:03:13,880 --> 01:03:16,360 Speaker 1: there is a strong argument to be made to, you know, 927 01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:18,520 Speaker 1: like let's make a shift back to the indie web 928 01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,560 Speaker 1: and not necessarily consume all our content through Facebook and 929 01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,240 Speaker 1: Twitter and all that. I think there is um but 930 01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:25,840 Speaker 1: I also think we need to be a little bit 931 01:03:25,920 --> 01:03:31,640 Speaker 1: realistic about the ability of the average person to engage 932 01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,720 Speaker 1: and devote that amount of time um to doing things 933 01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:37,480 Speaker 1: like that, you know, And I think we need to 934 01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:40,480 Speaker 1: be realistic about the circumstances that are leading people to 935 01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:45,960 Speaker 1: have to take the quickest option, the cheapest option, even 936 01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:49,080 Speaker 1: when presented with the ethical choice they might go in 937 01:03:49,120 --> 01:03:52,439 Speaker 1: a different direction. I think enabling people to have more 938 01:03:52,480 --> 01:03:55,720 Speaker 1: flexibility to make the right decision rather than the cheapest 939 01:03:55,800 --> 01:04:01,000 Speaker 1: or the quickest would be useful blood any uh any thoughts. Yeah, 940 01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:03,680 Speaker 1: some of the promise of web three that is legitimate 941 01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:07,960 Speaker 1: to me and very exciting to me is a very 942 01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:12,480 Speaker 1: human push and pull between let's all get together in 943 01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,480 Speaker 1: one place and then let's all split off into our 944 01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:19,960 Speaker 1: own tribes and the success I think of Facebook and 945 01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:24,360 Speaker 1: things like my Space eventually Instagram, Twitter are this very 946 01:04:24,440 --> 01:04:28,720 Speaker 1: human drive to have all of these tribes get together 947 01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:33,520 Speaker 1: in one place, and I think that has sort of 948 01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:37,480 Speaker 1: metastasized into some really problematic stuff that happens on Facebook, 949 01:04:37,480 --> 01:04:40,919 Speaker 1: that happens on these giant monolith places. And so when 950 01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,000 Speaker 1: we think about Web three is a rejection of all 951 01:04:43,040 --> 01:04:46,600 Speaker 1: of this, it's these tribes breaking away and saying we 952 01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,479 Speaker 1: don't want to be part of the monolith. And now 953 01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,000 Speaker 1: we go over to what's happening right now and some 954 01:04:53,120 --> 01:04:57,920 Speaker 1: of the creators and communities that are building tribes around 955 01:04:57,920 --> 01:05:03,640 Speaker 1: themselves and they're being given these decentralized finance tools to 956 01:05:03,840 --> 01:05:06,320 Speaker 1: do it. I don't think we're there yet. I still 957 01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:08,880 Speaker 1: think that we have years of work to do before 958 01:05:09,400 --> 01:05:12,920 Speaker 1: it's easy enough to use and attractive to use. But 959 01:05:13,000 --> 01:05:15,000 Speaker 1: it's not going to be right now. It's certainly not 960 01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:21,200 Speaker 1: easy for the legitimate purposes of Web three. And that's 961 01:05:21,240 --> 01:05:24,040 Speaker 1: why I say we're probably years away from Web three, 962 01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,400 Speaker 1: and that we're in Web two and a half right now, 963 01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:28,760 Speaker 1: because a lot of the value this can bring for 964 01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:33,760 Speaker 1: creators is very much an R and D, and we're 965 01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:36,200 Speaker 1: still struggling with the consumer that has a really hard 966 01:05:36,200 --> 01:05:40,400 Speaker 1: time onboarding into into how to buy these things, and 967 01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,120 Speaker 1: it's really unfortunate to me. And where I will very 968 01:05:44,200 --> 01:05:51,240 Speaker 1: much call bullshit on my own industry is it's hard 969 01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,000 Speaker 1: to work on this stuff. It is difficult to navigate 970 01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:00,080 Speaker 1: the regulation of onboarding and getting people into crypto r 971 01:06:00,120 --> 01:06:03,400 Speaker 1: un seen out of cryptocurrency. It's very hard to get 972 01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:07,000 Speaker 1: the consumer to participate in a way that is meaningful. 973 01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,600 Speaker 1: But there are folks working on it. It's far easier 974 01:06:11,640 --> 01:06:13,960 Speaker 1: to put a jpeg on a token, put her an 975 01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:18,520 Speaker 1: open sea and say this is like I, I personally 976 01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:22,240 Speaker 1: am not a huge fan of let's say born a 977 01:06:22,280 --> 01:06:26,760 Speaker 1: ball club where everybody hasn't enough T and that means 978 01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:28,800 Speaker 1: we're gonna throw concerts and we're gonna open up like 979 01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,680 Speaker 1: an exclusive club in London and all this other stuff. 980 01:06:33,360 --> 01:06:35,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's fine, but that's the kind of stuff 981 01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:38,280 Speaker 1: that you really don't need a blockchain for and you 982 01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:41,840 Speaker 1: really don't need smart contracts for. But it's easy because 983 01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,000 Speaker 1: if you market it right and you hype it correctly, 984 01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:47,960 Speaker 1: then people get excited about it. There's sort of this 985 01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:53,280 Speaker 1: interesting dichonomy and web three where you simultaneously have advocates 986 01:06:53,320 --> 01:06:55,800 Speaker 1: for it saying you've got to get in. Now, you've 987 01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,680 Speaker 1: got to get in early. You know, you've got to 988 01:06:57,760 --> 01:07:00,320 Speaker 1: be in the forefront of this new thing. And then 989 01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:03,440 Speaker 1: you also have people saying it's too early. You know, 990 01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:07,800 Speaker 1: it's not revolutionary yet, but it will be. The conversation 991 01:07:07,960 --> 01:07:10,880 Speaker 1: changes every time. You know, it's like, so, should we 992 01:07:10,960 --> 01:07:14,720 Speaker 1: be using your products if it's not ready yet? Should 993 01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:18,160 Speaker 1: we be giving you money? Should we be supporting this industry? 994 01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:20,800 Speaker 1: It's kind of all over the place. You know, people 995 01:07:20,800 --> 01:07:22,960 Speaker 1: will say, yeah, there are flaws. On the other hand, 996 01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:25,920 Speaker 1: those same people are saying, come by my token, come 997 01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:29,320 Speaker 1: use my project, And so it's it's tough because I 998 01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:32,840 Speaker 1: think the goal posts sort of move constantly. If a 999 01:07:32,920 --> 01:07:37,640 Speaker 1: technology is so so nascent and it is so flawed 1000 01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:44,040 Speaker 1: that the average person can't responsibly or safely engage with it, 1001 01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:49,520 Speaker 1: it's not ethical to be promoting it as something that 1002 01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,120 Speaker 1: people need to be adopting, that they should be engaging with. 1003 01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,640 Speaker 1: You know, I think that if you're designing a car 1004 01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,400 Speaker 1: that crashes of the time, you probably shouldn't be telling 1005 01:08:00,440 --> 01:08:05,360 Speaker 1: people to strap in and go for a drive. Um, Molly, 1006 01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:08,920 Speaker 1: I understand your point, right, If a thing isn't ready, 1007 01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,440 Speaker 1: why are you asking people to use it? But I 1008 01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:18,439 Speaker 1: would observe also that that is seemingly true of the 1009 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:22,400 Speaker 1: software industry in general. Right, that is an that is 1010 01:08:22,439 --> 01:08:25,160 Speaker 1: a thing that Silicon Valley has spent a lot of 1011 01:08:25,240 --> 01:08:30,920 Speaker 1: time training all of us on. Is you're using an 1012 01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:34,479 Speaker 1: imperfect thing. So you look at like the the issue 1013 01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:38,200 Speaker 1: with self driving in cars, right, Like I own a Tesla, 1014 01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:41,639 Speaker 1: I have full self driving capability. I will tell you 1015 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:47,160 Speaker 1: it is absolutely not self driving, and I absolutely would 1016 01:08:47,200 --> 01:08:49,519 Speaker 1: not use it that way, but I do use it. 1017 01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:54,240 Speaker 1: And so should they not sell Tesla's until it's perfect 1018 01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:59,280 Speaker 1: and ready? Or is it okay to go? You know, 1019 01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:02,599 Speaker 1: you're taking some risk by trying to sound you're a 1020 01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:07,479 Speaker 1: test pilot, and if you accept that responsibility, get in 1021 01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,840 Speaker 1: there and go for it, you know. Question. Yeah, No, 1022 01:09:10,920 --> 01:09:13,559 Speaker 1: I think it's a great question. And I think generally speaking, 1023 01:09:13,920 --> 01:09:17,760 Speaker 1: software and actually many industries have a serious problem with 1024 01:09:17,800 --> 01:09:21,280 Speaker 1: ethics and the acceptability of doing that. I actually don't 1025 01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:23,720 Speaker 1: think it's acceptable for Tesla to go. Yeah, you might 1026 01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:27,040 Speaker 1: kill yourself for somebody else with this, but go for it. 1027 01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,439 Speaker 1: You know, you've accepted the risk that you're taking other 1028 01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,320 Speaker 1: people's lives into your hands. The same thing I think 1029 01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:35,599 Speaker 1: is true with Web three and crypto where people are 1030 01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:38,880 Speaker 1: saying it's early, there might be bugs, you might lose 1031 01:09:38,960 --> 01:09:41,400 Speaker 1: everything you put into it. So I think that there 1032 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:43,840 Speaker 1: is an ethical problem and that we as a society 1033 01:09:43,960 --> 01:09:46,480 Speaker 1: need to push back on the idea of software engineers 1034 01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,320 Speaker 1: just pushing forward saying move fast and break things. But 1035 01:09:50,439 --> 01:09:53,240 Speaker 1: it's so easy, I think when you are so removed 1036 01:09:53,320 --> 01:09:55,320 Speaker 1: from your user base to say, oh, you've gotta break 1037 01:09:55,360 --> 01:09:58,080 Speaker 1: a few plates, you gotta run over a few people 1038 01:09:58,120 --> 01:10:01,440 Speaker 1: with your tesla, you gotta bankrupt, if few people completely 1039 01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:05,040 Speaker 1: wipe out their savings, it's you. I think it's really 1040 01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:08,400 Speaker 1: critical that the software engineering says, no, we can't just 1041 01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:10,240 Speaker 1: stick out that we're going to break a few plates. 1042 01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:13,280 Speaker 1: We need to be very responsible and thoughtful about not 1043 01:10:13,360 --> 01:10:16,360 Speaker 1: only what we're building, but how we're marketing it, how 1044 01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:18,960 Speaker 1: we're selling it, who we're selling it to, what we're 1045 01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:20,680 Speaker 1: telling them they can do with it, and what it 1046 01:10:20,720 --> 01:10:24,040 Speaker 1: will bring to the world, and what the risks are 1047 01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:27,200 Speaker 1: what they're signing up for, and how they're protected or 1048 01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:31,040 Speaker 1: if they're protected at all from catastrophic failure. And none 1049 01:10:31,080 --> 01:10:34,040 Speaker 1: of that is happening in the crypto industry, and I 1050 01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:37,080 Speaker 1: think that is really really critical to pay attention to 1051 01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:43,720 Speaker 1: you and push back on vlode any any thoughts on that. Um, 1052 01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,920 Speaker 1: I'm still going to be very mindful of separating out 1053 01:10:47,120 --> 01:10:51,439 Speaker 1: crypto trading culture, which is not necessarily unique to block 1054 01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:55,320 Speaker 1: chains or Web three, and the very idea of like 1055 01:10:56,479 --> 01:11:00,719 Speaker 1: speculatively wild westing. I think that's a feature of Web 1056 01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:04,439 Speaker 1: three and a feature of blockchain, but I still struggle 1057 01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,880 Speaker 1: to see that as the main thing. I'd love for 1058 01:11:07,920 --> 01:11:12,599 Speaker 1: you both to make some brief predictions about the future 1059 01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:16,920 Speaker 1: of Web three. Paint a best case scenario and a 1060 01:11:17,000 --> 01:11:20,479 Speaker 1: worst case scenario for me, Molly, why don't we start 1061 01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:25,040 Speaker 1: with you? Well, I think the best case scenario is 1062 01:11:25,080 --> 01:11:29,640 Speaker 1: that people uh redefine the term a little bit. You know, 1063 01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:32,519 Speaker 1: what is the web going to evolve into. I think 1064 01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:36,000 Speaker 1: that there's a lot of potential there to fix some 1065 01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:38,559 Speaker 1: of the very serious problems that exist on the web 1066 01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,639 Speaker 1: and to move towards a more you know, community driven 1067 01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:47,440 Speaker 1: platform which is not so uh, you know, hyper optimized 1068 01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:51,800 Speaker 1: for advertisements and engagement at the expense of everything else. 1069 01:11:52,640 --> 01:11:58,040 Speaker 1: I worry that people will really internalize this definition that 1070 01:11:58,160 --> 01:12:01,880 Speaker 1: Web three, the next generation of the Web, is going 1071 01:12:01,920 --> 01:12:04,920 Speaker 1: to be crypto and you know, block chains and everything 1072 01:12:04,920 --> 01:12:09,640 Speaker 1: else without you know, actually examining whether or not that 1073 01:12:09,840 --> 01:12:12,840 Speaker 1: is true or should be true. And so I think 1074 01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:15,720 Speaker 1: in the worst case scenario, people really stick to their 1075 01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:20,720 Speaker 1: guns on blockchains, crypto, etcetera. And we see what is 1076 01:12:20,760 --> 01:12:24,080 Speaker 1: already playing out with large venture capital firms capturing a 1077 01:12:24,120 --> 01:12:29,040 Speaker 1: lot of the market and really quite successfully separating people 1078 01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:33,200 Speaker 1: from their money with promises of getting wealthy overnight, escaping 1079 01:12:33,240 --> 01:12:36,759 Speaker 1: tough financial situations. Being on the forefront of the future 1080 01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:39,679 Speaker 1: of the web. I think that is the worst case scenario, 1081 01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,240 Speaker 1: that this really does continue to play out, and that 1082 01:12:42,400 --> 01:12:45,719 Speaker 1: people get harmed even more than they already have, which 1083 01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:50,599 Speaker 1: is a substantial amount. Thank you for that, Molly at Vaude. 1084 01:12:50,960 --> 01:12:54,439 Speaker 1: Best and worst, I'll start with the worst case. The 1085 01:12:54,439 --> 01:13:00,920 Speaker 1: worst case is that Web three falls into the habit 1086 01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:03,759 Speaker 1: of Web two. So I call web to the Golden 1087 01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:07,200 Speaker 1: Age for the consumer of content. All the world's content 1088 01:13:07,320 --> 01:13:09,799 Speaker 1: is available to us at our fingertips, at a low price, 1089 01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:13,559 Speaker 1: easily searchable, and it's been nothing short of truly a 1090 01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:18,840 Speaker 1: renaissance for the consumer of culture. Web three fails if 1091 01:13:18,880 --> 01:13:21,960 Speaker 1: it falls in the worst case scenario of proliferating the 1092 01:13:22,000 --> 01:13:26,519 Speaker 1: idea that we continue the Golden age for the consumer. 1093 01:13:28,120 --> 01:13:31,640 Speaker 1: The best case scenario for Web three is that it 1094 01:13:31,680 --> 01:13:34,920 Speaker 1: brings about a golden age for the creator, particularly the 1095 01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:39,759 Speaker 1: natively digital creator of content. The best case scenario for 1096 01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:44,679 Speaker 1: Web three is that the creators of content can own 1097 01:13:44,800 --> 01:13:50,720 Speaker 1: their creation, own their copyright, own their commerce, and be 1098 01:13:50,760 --> 01:13:55,200 Speaker 1: able to do so without requiring a third party to 1099 01:13:55,280 --> 01:14:01,839 Speaker 1: facilitated for them. Great, thank you, blod Okay, last question, 1100 01:14:02,400 --> 01:14:05,240 Speaker 1: we have a tool on calling bullshit called the B 1101 01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:10,200 Speaker 1: S Scale. It goes from zero to a hundred. Zero 1102 01:14:10,479 --> 01:14:13,360 Speaker 1: is the best score zero BS and a hundred is 1103 01:14:13,400 --> 01:14:20,040 Speaker 1: the worst total BS. What score would you give Web 1104 01:14:20,240 --> 01:14:28,800 Speaker 1: three today, Vlad? You go first to assign an overarching 1105 01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:32,240 Speaker 1: score for an entire industry has actually made this entire 1106 01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:36,000 Speaker 1: podcast and conversation quite challenging because we're trying to loop 1107 01:14:36,000 --> 01:14:39,760 Speaker 1: in so many different players. Yeah, so to put the 1108 01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:45,960 Speaker 1: score on the industry, I'm gonna say twenty. Molly, I 1109 01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:50,920 Speaker 1: would give it a solid and I think some people 1110 01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:53,040 Speaker 1: might be surprised that I might not give it a hundred. 1111 01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:56,920 Speaker 1: There's some hope there, Molly. At least it's hope. I 1112 01:14:56,960 --> 01:14:59,880 Speaker 1: think that people will really continue to follow the goal 1113 01:15:00,240 --> 01:15:04,600 Speaker 1: of Web three without being chained to the technology um, 1114 01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:09,080 Speaker 1: but I remain fairly optimistic that Web three will end 1115 01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:12,400 Speaker 1: up being defined quite differently from how it has been 1116 01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:15,519 Speaker 1: defined in the past couple of years by the marketing 1117 01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:20,400 Speaker 1: minds behind a lot of the crypto and blockchain projects. Okay, 1118 01:15:20,439 --> 01:15:23,599 Speaker 1: this was an absolutely awesome conversation. I want to thank 1119 01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,439 Speaker 1: you both so much for participating in it. I totally 1120 01:15:26,520 --> 01:15:30,120 Speaker 1: enjoyed it. I learned a ton and thank you for 1121 01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:32,600 Speaker 1: the time today. Thanks for having me, Thank you so 1122 01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:37,800 Speaker 1: much time. Alright, folks, it is time to make the call. 1123 01:15:38,479 --> 01:15:41,960 Speaker 1: How much BS is there in the web three space. 1124 01:15:43,080 --> 01:15:45,160 Speaker 1: This is the first time we've looked at an entire 1125 01:15:45,360 --> 01:15:48,320 Speaker 1: sector on the show, and I knew it would be complicated, 1126 01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:52,799 Speaker 1: but I had no idea just how contested and nascent 1127 01:15:52,920 --> 01:15:57,280 Speaker 1: this space is. Not to mention all of the technical language, 1128 01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,719 Speaker 1: it's also the first time that we received it's widely 1129 01:16:00,720 --> 01:16:06,000 Speaker 1: divergent BS scores. To recap, Molly gave it a Glen 1130 01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:10,960 Speaker 1: A fifty and Vlad a twenty. There are just so 1131 01:16:11,000 --> 01:16:15,400 Speaker 1: many places that our guests disagree and places their views intersect. 1132 01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:19,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to paint a verbal ven diagram. 1133 01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:21,519 Speaker 1: You might want to grab a pencil on a piece 1134 01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:28,120 Speaker 1: of paper. Molly and Glenn agree that the Internet could 1135 01:16:28,160 --> 01:16:32,040 Speaker 1: have a bright future, and that future isn't necessarily tied 1136 01:16:32,080 --> 01:16:36,400 Speaker 1: to the blockchain. For instance, Glenn mentioned Taiwan's digital tools, 1137 01:16:36,439 --> 01:16:41,960 Speaker 1: which are actually built without blockchain technology. Molly and Vlad, however, 1138 01:16:42,080 --> 01:16:46,559 Speaker 1: both agree that Web three implies a blockchain. Vlad believes 1139 01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:51,519 Speaker 1: that blockchains can help create the ultimate directed consumer platform. Molly, 1140 01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:53,840 Speaker 1: on the other hand, doesn't think the blockchain is solving 1141 01:16:53,880 --> 01:16:57,439 Speaker 1: any problems and is probably creating more trouble than it's 1142 01:16:57,439 --> 01:17:02,280 Speaker 1: actually worth. And Vlad and Glenn agree that vcs aren't 1143 01:17:02,320 --> 01:17:07,200 Speaker 1: necessarily the only enemy here. Bad actors take many forms, 1144 01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:11,040 Speaker 1: but everyone agrees that this is a tough topic to 1145 01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:14,720 Speaker 1: dissect and that to some extent, vcs are working to 1146 01:17:14,760 --> 01:17:19,640 Speaker 1: consolidate power in a sector they are advertising as decentralized. 1147 01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:24,280 Speaker 1: So this one is tough to call. I'm going to 1148 01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:28,760 Speaker 1: give it a fifty. I think the fair answer here 1149 01:17:28,880 --> 01:17:32,479 Speaker 1: is that we have multiple factions working their butts off 1150 01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:36,920 Speaker 1: to produce totally divergent versions of Web three, and the 1151 01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:40,680 Speaker 1: outcome is far from clear at the moment. If the 1152 01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:44,200 Speaker 1: vcs managed to create a centralized version of Web three, 1153 01:17:44,240 --> 01:17:46,920 Speaker 1: where our data is plundered for the benefit of a 1154 01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:50,880 Speaker 1: wealthy few. That's bad, and the score goes way up. 1155 01:17:51,560 --> 01:17:55,400 Speaker 1: If the anarcho capitalists win and all our social institutions 1156 01:17:55,400 --> 01:17:58,400 Speaker 1: and governments get erased, I think that's a bad thing. 1157 01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:01,840 Speaker 1: But if end and some of the other Optimists went 1158 01:18:01,840 --> 01:18:04,040 Speaker 1: out and we use Web three to enact some of 1159 01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:07,519 Speaker 1: the original promise of Web one and create a better 1160 01:18:07,560 --> 01:18:12,400 Speaker 1: functioning and more egalitarian society, well that would be great 1161 01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:17,000 Speaker 1: and the score would drop way way down. So let's 1162 01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:19,080 Speaker 1: all agree to keep an eye on this space and 1163 01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:24,400 Speaker 1: revisit it in the future. I am so grateful to 1164 01:18:24,439 --> 01:18:26,960 Speaker 1: have such amazing guests joining me for this one. I 1165 01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:30,080 Speaker 1: want to thank Glenn While, Molly White, and Vlad Ginsburg 1166 01:18:30,160 --> 01:18:32,000 Speaker 1: for taking the time to speak with me on the show. 1167 01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:35,400 Speaker 1: I highly recommend checking out more of their work to 1168 01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:37,840 Speaker 1: learn more about them, check out the links on our 1169 01:18:37,880 --> 01:18:42,800 Speaker 1: show notes, and if this episode monopolized your attention, subscribe 1170 01:18:42,800 --> 01:18:45,559 Speaker 1: to the Calling Bullshit podcast on the I Heart radio app, 1171 01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:48,880 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to people speaking to 1172 01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:51,880 Speaker 1: your ears. Please take a minute to rate us and 1173 01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,320 Speaker 1: let us know what you think of the show. More 1174 01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:58,240 Speaker 1: reviews help more people find us and thanks to our 1175 01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:02,880 Speaker 1: production team Hannah be Yell, Amanda Ginsburg, D S Moss, 1176 01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:08,000 Speaker 1: Hailey Pascalites, and Parker Silzer. Calling Bullshit was created by 1177 01:19:08,000 --> 01:19:12,080 Speaker 1: co Collective and it's hosted by me Ti Montaguio. Thanks 1178 01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:12,639 Speaker 1: for listening.