1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Hi Os Voloshin here and Cara Price. We're taking the 2 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: week off. Indeed, we'll be back with new episodes starting 3 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: September tenth. 4 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,119 Speaker 2: In the meantime, instead of leaving this feed empty, we 5 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 2: wanted to share an episode from earlier this year. This week, 6 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: we're reairing my conversation with Ben Taub from February twenty sixth. 7 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: He's a Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalist and a staff 8 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 2: writer at The New Yorker. We discussed the tech being 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: used by Russia to safeguard its nuclear arsenal and to 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: spy on NATO countries, all in one of the coldest 11 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 2: places on Earth. I interviewed Ben at a time when 12 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 2: tensions between Russia and Norway were high, and as Russia 13 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 2: clashed with NATO over the war in Ukraine. Hope you 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 2: enjoy it and thanks for listening. Welcome to tech Stuff. 15 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 2: This is the story, and this week our guest is 16 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: the investigative journalist Ben Taub. Every Wednesday, we bring you 17 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,600 Speaker 2: an in depth interview with someone who has a front 18 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 2: row seat to the most fascinating things happening in tech. 19 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: Ben Taub, who writes for The New Yorker, and has 20 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,119 Speaker 2: won the Pulitzer and two National Magazine Awards. Has found 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 2: himself up close in a tech battle for world supremacy, 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 2: not really by design, but by following a good story. 23 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: For Ben, it all started on the singing show The 24 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: Voice No Really. Ben was an undergrad at Princeton, took 25 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:35,040 Speaker 2: a little time off to audition for The Voice and 26 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 2: stashed away the stipend provided to performers on the show 27 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: to fund his first foray into international journalism, traveling to 28 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: the Turkish Syrian border, which gave him the bug not 29 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: just for reporting, but reporting on the periphery of international conflict. 30 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: After reporting in Syria and Chad, he found himself drawn 31 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 2: to the periphery of a conflict animated by the fear 32 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 2: of the twentieth century most fearsome technological innovation, the nuclear bomb. 33 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 2: Chasing that story took Ben to one of the most 34 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: remote and coldest places on Earth, the Norway Russian border, 35 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 2: where a complex spy game is underway. He saw for 36 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: himself up close gadgetary and systems that are almost blindingly 37 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: high tech, but also tech as simple as a set 38 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: of binoculars or a snowshoe, a reminder that sometimes the 39 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 2: best tech for the job might have been around for centuries. 40 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,000 Speaker 2: Ben spent two years reporting mostly from a place called 41 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 2: chukenis a Norwegian town of a few thousand people, just 42 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,960 Speaker 2: a couple of miles from the Russian border, where nuclear 43 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,720 Speaker 2: tensions are a fact of life. 44 00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 3: So right after Russia invaded Ukraine, I went up to 45 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 3: northern Norway to join NATO military exercise called Cold Response 46 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 3: that happens regularly, just to try to understand what are 47 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 3: the stakes up here? And I was being driven around 48 00:02:56,720 --> 00:03:00,399 Speaker 3: by a Norwegian Army spokesman and we started the gas 49 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,960 Speaker 3: station in the middle of nowhere, and he said, oh, 50 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 3: you should talk to that guy. 51 00:03:03,919 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 4: He's the border. 52 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: Commander and it's filling up his gas like on the 53 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 3: next one over. So I went up to him and said, 54 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 3: I hear you're the border commander and he said, oh, yeah, yeah. 55 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 3: And I was like, well, Rassia just invaded Ukraine like 56 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 3: three weeks ago. Are you concerned about anything happening up there? 57 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 3: And he's like no, why are you so certain? And 58 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 3: he said when is your peace coming out? I don't know, 59 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: like a year or longer. And he said, well, if 60 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: it's that long, the truth is that we can see 61 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 3: the activity on the other side, and we know who 62 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 3: our counterparts are, and we've seen them for a long time. 63 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,280 Speaker 3: We see them train, we see them do everything, and 64 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 3: they all got deployed down to Ukraine and they're all dead. 65 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 3: It's like eighty percent of them died in the first 66 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 3: three weeks of the war. So there's no one to invade. 67 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 3: They have all the nuclear stuff, but like the actual 68 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: ground forces on the other side of the border basically 69 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: don't exist right now. 70 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: If you've been to some extraordinary places, describe Shirkinness. 71 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 3: So Checkinus is a small town on the Norwegian Russian border, 72 00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 3: high up in the Arctic, about as high north as 73 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: you can in continental Europe, and yet it's weirdly accessible. 74 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 3: You can fly there in two and a half hours 75 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: from Oslo, and there's a sort of a daily flight. 76 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 3: And it's subject to the strangeness of its position, both 77 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 3: in terms of like geopolitics and in terms of geography. 78 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: So in the winter, like you don't see the sun 79 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,120 Speaker 3: for two full months, it never rises. You do see 80 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 3: daylight every day, but it's like a livid blue twilight. 81 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 3: So you might have around the winter solstice, you might 82 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 3: have about two hours of like blue gray where you 83 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: can see from around ten am to noon and then 84 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 3: it's black on either side. 85 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: There during this time. 86 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I stayed the whole time because I thought it 87 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,839 Speaker 3: was important. Basically, I went on and off for two years, 88 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 3: and I knew I wanted to set it as a 89 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 3: count intelligence story. And the whole point of counterintelligence work 90 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 3: is that you can't see what's around you, even if 91 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 3: you know that it's there. And that's what it's like 92 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 3: in Shirkiness. Between sort of mid November and mid January, 93 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 3: you don't see the sun and most of the time 94 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 3: it's pitch black, and so everyone sort of eyeing each 95 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 3: other and no one really can tell what's going on 96 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 3: physically as well as what's underlying everyone's motivations and behaviors. 97 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 3: So I thought that was a good place to set 98 00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 3: a cutter intelligence story because it's so ambiguous and strange, 99 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 3: and to understand the place you have to experience I 100 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: think a proper polar winter, because you can't really feel 101 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 3: what it's like to live through that place unless you 102 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 3: go through the vitamin D deficiencies and the depressive qualities 103 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 3: of like not seeing the sun for two months. 104 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,239 Speaker 1: There's a reason they call it Nordic noir. 105 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 2: But I loved that one of the first sentences in 106 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 2: your piece, which was to survive the months of snow 107 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: and ice. Predator resort to camouflage and deception, but so 108 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:43,279 Speaker 2: do their prey. 109 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: It's true the wildlife up there behaves the same way 110 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 3: as the people. 111 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:52,919 Speaker 2: And then you had this mission impossible esque experience in 112 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 2: a navy plane. Please tell me about that. 113 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 4: Sure. 114 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 3: So the reason that this place is so geopolitically significant 115 00:05:59,920 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 3: is because Russia has a massive coastline in the Arctic, 116 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 3: but it's not really useful most of the time because 117 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 3: everything east of Mirmansk freezes in winter, and so it's 118 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: a source of tremendous frustration for the Russians that they 119 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 3: have to keep their nuclear submarine force within listening range 120 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 3: of NATO territory, which is Norway, and so in order 121 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 3: to get into the North Atlantic, those submarines have to 122 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 3: traverse along the northern Norwegian coastline through the Barren Sea. 123 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,039 Speaker 3: The challenge for the Russians is that they're extremely exposed 124 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 3: during that transit because the Barren Sea is very shallow, 125 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,039 Speaker 3: which means that you can track submarines from the sky, 126 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 3: and they can't dive, and they can't hide anywhere, and 127 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:42,000 Speaker 3: so there's an ongoing, constant sort of cat and mouse 128 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 3: game between Russian submarines and NATO warships and spyplanes in 129 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,839 Speaker 3: the Arctic. It's happening all the time. It's just a 130 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 3: game of look at me, looking at you. We are here, 131 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,600 Speaker 3: we have the right to do this. It's international waters. 132 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 3: But it's pretty uncomfortable for you, and everyone's playing the 133 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: same thing against everyone else. So I joined a US 134 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 3: Navy P eight spyplane, which is a maritime. 135 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: Patrol aircraft nicknamed the Poseidon, right. 136 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 3: Yes, the Pight Poseidon US, and the Pight Poseidon is 137 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,920 Speaker 3: basically the most advanced submarine hunting aircraft in the world. 138 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 3: And you fly over suspected submarine targets and they drop 139 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 3: hundreds of SONA buoys into the water. And then to 140 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 3: get the position of a submarine you need to know 141 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 3: the temperature and the salinity of the water column, because 142 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 3: the speed of sound travels differently in saltier water or 143 00:07:32,960 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 3: colder water. And then once they know that, they drop 144 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 3: hundreds of others that then sort of fall out a 145 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 3: pre programmed array at different depths and build out a 146 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 3: three D sound map of everything below the surface. And 147 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 3: so that's how you basically try like submarines as they 148 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:50,960 Speaker 3: go under. The submarines, meanwhile, are constantly sort of hunting 149 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: for thermoclines when the water column has anomalous temperatures for 150 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 3: all kinds of strange geological reasons, and that way they 151 00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:01,400 Speaker 3: can sort of mask their position. But it's tricky when 152 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,160 Speaker 3: the water is quite shallow. So on this particular flight, 153 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 3: the US Navy was gathering intelligence on Russian surface vessels, 154 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 3: auxiliary vessels for the military, a couple of warships, a 155 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 3: couple of like you know, f SB tugboats and things 156 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 3: that have spy equipment on board. And so they would 157 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 3: fly overhead by about a thousand feet, and you know, 158 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 3: we were flying in the dead of night, but this 159 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 3: was in polar summer, so everyone can see everything. Oh 160 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 3: my god, twenty four hours, son, Now how far above 161 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 3: these ships are you? 162 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 4: So we flew as. 163 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,080 Speaker 1: Low as three hundred feet. Was that terrifying? 164 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 4: It was? 165 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 3: Well, there's a moment where the mission commander, who's like 166 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 3: a twenty seven year old intelligence officer says to me, 167 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: or put on a life jacket because everytime we go 168 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:42,160 Speaker 3: below five hundred feet we have to put on life jackets, 169 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,880 Speaker 3: like that's not going to help. We're flying a place. 170 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 3: The p Posidon is the same airframe as a Boeing 171 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 3: seven thirty seven. We're flying five hundred miles an hour, 172 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 3: three hundred feet off the water and a massive plane 173 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 3: and then doing bank turns like chasing these ships and 174 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 3: doing flybys and sort of a show of force like 175 00:08:58,080 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 3: a life jack is not gonna help in that circumstance. 176 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 3: And then sort of long afterwards, I thought about it, 177 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 3: and this is speculation, but my belief is that it's 178 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 3: probably so they can find the bobes. 179 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 4: If there is a crash. 180 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 3: So anyway, we were flying past all these ships, and 181 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: there was like a British warship nearby and a Norwegian 182 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 3: warship nearby, and they were being tailed by a Russian warship. 183 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: And it just happens every day. So meanwhile, Chicken is 184 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,800 Speaker 3: the air traffic controllers can hear this contact between the 185 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 3: Americans and the Russians the standard protocols since the Cold War, 186 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 3: so the Americans would call a Zemily Azemi Azemilia Delta 187 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:33,560 Speaker 3: Echo Ivory Eagle saying to the Russian control tower, we 188 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 3: are the American aircraft. And then the Russians reply, you 189 00:09:37,200 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 3: know Delta, Echo, Ivory, Eagle, zamily As, Emily Azemia, and 190 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 3: it's just acknowledging it is us. 191 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:43,520 Speaker 4: We're here. 192 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 1: We're not friends, but nor are we here to attack. 193 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 3: Exactly like we're gonna do our job. You're gonna do yours. 194 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 3: You're gonna hate us doing our job. We're gonna hate 195 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 3: you doing yours. And that's how things are always done. 196 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 2: Tech stuff was was littered, often literally throughout the piece, 197 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 2: or sometimes literally is say, I. 198 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 1: Want to start with some of the most mundane. 199 00:10:04,679 --> 00:10:08,359 Speaker 2: Tech elements though, which is how do people and specifically 200 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 2: soldiers survive this environment. 201 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 3: So the soldiers live out in these cabins, remote military cabins, 202 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 3: you know, an hour and a half by snowmobile from 203 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 3: the town. So if something happens in a white out, 204 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 3: you basically need to carry on your back enough to 205 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 3: survive in minus forty in a snowstorm for up to 206 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 3: forty eight hours. 207 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 4: So they do. 208 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 3: They go in pairs on their patrols. They walk usually 209 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 3: about ten, ten to eighteen kilometers per patrol between remote 210 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 3: military cabins and sort of every single day, the entire 211 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 3: length of the Russian Norwegian border is walked on the 212 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 3: Norwegian side. Wow, it's one hundred and ninety eight kilometers, 213 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 3: so it's not terribly long. It's not like the finish one, 214 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 3: but they split it up and every single inch of 215 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 3: it is walked. And part of that in the winter 216 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: is that you can see from their own tracks if 217 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 3: anything has moved across those tracks, and in the summer 218 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 3: they take dogs to if if anything has cossed. But 219 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 3: in the winter, when it's really really rough, often you'll 220 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:07,839 Speaker 3: lose your own tracks if it's been blowed over by 221 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 3: the previous day. 222 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 2: So the patrols in it are a form of data collection, 223 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 2: right looking at all the people's footprints, sniffing for other 224 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 2: people's scent, and of course the Poseidon flight was also 225 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: a data collection exercise. Ultimately, what are some of the 226 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 2: other kind of physical artifacts or manifestations of data collection that. 227 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,080 Speaker 3: You saw when you get to one of these remote 228 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 3: military cabins. Usually the stuff out there is so simple. 229 00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 3: They'll have binoculars on a table or maybe a telescope 230 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 3: like something you could buy in a shop, and when 231 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 3: it's really wide out conditions. Yeah, some of these guys 232 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 3: would just open the windows stick their head out because 233 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 3: they could hear better than they could see. 234 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 4: Wow. But that's the really remote stuff. 235 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 3: And then they have these like proper stations that have 236 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 3: all kinds of proper equipment. Some of that was classified, 237 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,319 Speaker 3: but it's the kind of thing that I sort of understood. 238 00:11:56,880 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 3: Can see through darkness, can see through class can see 239 00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:04,599 Speaker 3: through rain and build out a picture presumably involving Keat signatures, 240 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 3: so you don't need to actually physically be able to see. 241 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: So on the Russian side of the border, there are 242 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 3: no patrols. Really, there's very few. They don't walk it. 243 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 3: I never saw any Russians on patrol. So on the 244 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 3: Norwegian side, any civilian has the right to roam to 245 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 3: any part of Norway, including up to the border, like 246 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 3: literally right next to it. On the Russian side, it's 247 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:26,560 Speaker 3: a closed military zone. It's where they keep a lot 248 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: of their nuclear submarines, of course, but also land based 249 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,959 Speaker 3: nuclear weapons storage facilities. It's one of the most militarized 250 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 3: places on the planet. So there are no Russian civilians 251 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:38,280 Speaker 3: who can walk in the border area at all. So 252 00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 3: then it's curious that in an area that has no civilians. 253 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 3: If you drive along the border road on the Norwegian side, 254 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 3: you'll often have your cell phone switch to the Russian network. 255 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 3: They have really powerful like towers that traverse the river 256 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 3: to basically see I think who's on the other side, 257 00:12:55,600 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: because your phone will switch your sim card switches. Even 258 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 3: as I had my phone and airplane mode specifically to 259 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 3: avoid this, and the clock would change to the Russian 260 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: times on even when it's an airplane mode. I don't 261 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:08,840 Speaker 3: really understand the technicalities of that, but that was definitely 262 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 3: a form of collection on the other side. 263 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:16,200 Speaker 2: After the break, we'll have more from Ben Tao about 264 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: things heating up in the Northern Fleet, including some whale. 265 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 1: Based counter intelligence. 266 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 4: Stay with us. 267 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 2: There's been a lot about fishing boats in the press 268 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 2: recently as vessels of war in terms of dragging their 269 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 2: anchors through important cables. But the fishing boats hanging out 270 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:41,600 Speaker 2: around Chirkenis, these Russian fishing boats may have been for 271 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: surveillance purposes. 272 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, so they are fishing boats. They fish, but 273 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: sometimes they have dual use equipment on board. There have 274 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:55,920 Speaker 3: been instances where there was a radio hidden in a 275 00:13:56,000 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 3: compartment on one of the fishing boats that had access 276 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 3: to Russian military frequencies. But that doesn't mean it's a 277 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 3: spy boat, and it doesn't mean that anyone on board 278 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,199 Speaker 3: is actually working for the Russian security services. There are 279 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 3: innocent explanations, and that's the tricky thing about all of it. 280 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 3: I was like, well, what's an example of an innocent explanation. Well, 281 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 3: if they're fishing in the waters near Novaya Zemlia, which 282 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: has a ton of nuclear testing and other activities in 283 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 3: that military testing as well, they might need to be 284 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 3: able to access military frequencies so they can get warnings 285 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 3: and such. The equipment itself isn't proof, but you get 286 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 3: enough materials at a certain point as things start looking 287 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: really strange. 288 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: And there are these boat fishing which are allowed to 289 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: dock in the Churkenis Harbor. 290 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so Russian fishing boats can come to Chickeness. 291 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 3: The fishermen walk around town. They go to the pub, 292 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 3: the one pub, which is called Pub one. There's Johnny's 293 00:14:45,800 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 3: lunch bar where you have lunch served by Johnny. There's 294 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 3: a Chinese place called Shanghai and a type place called Bangkok. 295 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 3: Oh in a central cafe called the Central Cafe, so. 296 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 1: You're able to find your way around. 297 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 4: It's not too hard. But the I just loved it there. 298 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 3: I loved it there, and I thought that it was 299 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 3: a place where the story is the ambiguities. It's something 300 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 3: that you have to sit with and try to figure 301 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 3: out slowly, and everything's opaque and also, honestly, it took 302 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: a long time to get the sort of main characters. 303 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 3: The head of counter intelligence for the region, a guy 304 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 3: named Johann Rouasnas. Johann suspects that the FSB controls a 305 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: lot of the crew going in on those fishing boats 306 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 3: and saw a lot of fishing captains and fishermen have 307 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 3: backgrounds of being sailors with the Northern Fleet, so these 308 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 3: are former military officers, some of them maybe not former. 309 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 3: Sometimes it's strange they have these sailor passports which are handwritten, 310 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:48,680 Speaker 3: and you know, he's like, why is everyone called Sergei 311 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 3: Ivanov on this boat? 312 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 4: Right? Are they really just fishing? 313 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 3: And you know, it's a real concern for the Norwegian 314 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 3: security services that after the Ukraine War kicked off, suddenly 315 00:15:59,880 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 3: instead of being a lot of old dudes who look 316 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 3: like they fish, there's a lot of young dudes who 317 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 3: are doing pull ups in the harbor and sometimes strolling 318 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 3: around town and uniforms that looked like military uniforms. 319 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 1: Did Valdomir the whale come up and you're reporting my 320 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: favorite the last five years? 321 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 2: Okay, so do you want to describe to everyone who's 322 00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 2: follow me? The whale is a beautiful white whale, bluga whale, 323 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 2: bluego whale who turned up in a Norwegian harbor wearing 324 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 2: a head piece which looked to be like a GoPro camera. 325 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: And there was some confusionist to where Vladimir came from, 326 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 2: but the consensus was Vladimir was a spy whale who 327 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 2: unfortunately was recently found dead, fate of many spies. 328 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,400 Speaker 3: You know. I heard that basically one theory was that 329 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,320 Speaker 3: Vladimir had actually been sort of they strapped a GoPro 330 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 3: on him or harness on him, essentially as a massive 331 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 3: sigh op that like, people would become obsessed with this 332 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 3: and it would just from other things. It certainly worked 333 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 3: on me well. But then it turns out that they 334 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 3: actually do train blugle whales. But it's not so much 335 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 3: to go into Norway and spy on Norwegian facilities. It's 336 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 3: to protect the Northern Fleet. So these journalists at the 337 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 3: Baron's Observer, which is this fabulous tiny newspaper in Turcuinus, 338 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 3: two Norwegian guys and three Russian dissidents, they worked out 339 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 3: and mapped through satellite images that near Severomorsk, where there's 340 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 3: a big Northern Fleet submarine base, there are these pens 341 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 3: where there are blugle whales that you can see on 342 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 3: Google Maps. In them, I can show you there are 343 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 3: blugle whales in these pens, and they are trained to 344 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 3: spy on enemy submarines that might enter the Cola Fjord. 345 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 3: It's a counterintelligence operation. So essentially you have these whales 346 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 3: like patrolling the fjord and they've been trained essentially that 347 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 3: if they encounter something anomalous and metal that they then 348 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: come back and say like essentially like flat flat flap, 349 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 3: give me a camera. Then they go back and do 350 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 3: it again with a camera on them, and then the 351 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 3: footage is reviewed. But Vladimir escaped, so he's more of 352 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 3: a defector than a spy, and he was found dead 353 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 3: and initially there was reporting that there was a bullet 354 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 3: in his body. It was a huge sort of scandal 355 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 3: and concern, but it turns out he died by eating 356 00:18:11,320 --> 00:18:11,720 Speaker 3: a stick. 357 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: Ohado. 358 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 2: Part of what you report about is two sides trying 359 00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 2: to get as much information as they can on each other. 360 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 2: But the other part is two sides trying to hurt 361 00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: each other, or at least one side trying to hurt 362 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: the other. In the Russian case, this include everything from 363 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: jamming the GPS system of the local airport which almost 364 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 2: brought a plane down as far as I understand, to 365 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 2: kind of digitally enable spear fishing and influence operations. So 366 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:45,479 Speaker 2: talk about some of the kind of technological ways in 367 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 2: which Russia has tried to disturb life in the Chickenus region. 368 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 3: They really kind of treat Chickenness as a kind of laboratory. 369 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,159 Speaker 3: It's this remote, isolated place, so essentially they use it 370 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 3: as a kind of laboratory for various and telligence operations 371 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 3: to see what's the sort of right alchemy of messing 372 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 3: with the locals before something breaks. So you have psychological 373 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 3: and influenced operations, you have a conscription of locals and 374 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 3: exploitation for espionage purposes. You also have GPS jamming, as 375 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 3: you mentioned in that case. It began in twenty seventeen 376 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 3: the Russians were pissed about a NATO exercise elsewhere in 377 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,639 Speaker 3: Norway and started jamming GPS. The GPS jamming didn't affect 378 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,639 Speaker 3: the exercise at all, it was hundreds of miles away, 379 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 3: but it did mean that for about two hundred to 380 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty miles from the border, the area 381 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 3: around Chickiness, you couldn't have. 382 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 4: GPS on the ground level. 383 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 3: It works as a vector, so if you're on the 384 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:40,399 Speaker 3: other side of a mountain, you're not affected. You can 385 00:19:40,880 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 3: drive on Google Maps, but if you're within the vector, 386 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 3: and particularly in a plane, you lose your position. The 387 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 3: problem is that the only hospital for about five hundred 388 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 3: miles is in Checkines, so they have an air ambulance 389 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 3: that goes out to these remote, tiny airfields, and the 390 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,200 Speaker 3: air ambulance and some of these airfields don't have old 391 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,640 Speaker 3: school navigational equipment. So if they're going to a place 392 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 3: that's been reliant on GPS, because that's how things are 393 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,399 Speaker 3: done now. Already in the Arctic, because it's close to 394 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 3: the polls, GPS signals are quite weak and to jam 395 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 3: them is very very straightforward. There's an electronic warfare system 396 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 3: in the mountains near Pachenga on the Russian side. Then 397 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 3: they just beam it and they do it every day. 398 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,400 Speaker 3: Now it's pretty much every day, completely unpredictable, but every 399 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 3: single day there's jamming. And that's why the air ambulance 400 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 3: nearly crashed once in Chirkiness, because it sets off all 401 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 3: these alarms in the cockpit, so it's incredibly distracting to fly. 402 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 3: So even if you can see and know your position, 403 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 3: you are so distracted by the alarms going off constantly 404 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 3: that you kind of you might forget to put down 405 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 3: the flaps. Even I experienced it driving around in the 406 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 3: car and lost my position fortually. Yeah, yeah, because I 407 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 3: was on the mountains, just facing Russia and while I 408 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 3: was driving along the river, and I didn't know about 409 00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 3: GPS jamming at that point. It was the next day 410 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,200 Speaker 3: that I met with Johann for the first time and 411 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: he told me about this, and I just like, my 412 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 3: phone's not working, the car's not working, but you know, 413 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 3: there's like not that many roads out there, so I'll 414 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 3: find my way back other technical ones. The Globus, oh, yes, 415 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 3: of course. Yeah. 416 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 2: Globus is this enormous, essentially data collection facility whose stated 417 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,680 Speaker 2: mission is to monitor space junk. But I read in 418 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 2: your story that a certain point the cover blew off 419 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 2: and the antenna wasn't. 420 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: Actually pointing to the space after all. 421 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was pointing directly at the Northern Fleet. 422 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 4: So yeah. 423 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 3: Globus is actually the most advanced radar station in the world. 424 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 3: They have a series of ones iterations that have been 425 00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 3: built over the past sixty years. Globe is one, two, 426 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 3: and three in the latest. It's built by the Americans 427 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 3: but operated by the Norwegian Intelligence Service, essentially so that 428 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 3: the Norwegians can say to their population, we. 429 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,160 Speaker 1: Don't have any American military installations on our soil. 430 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, this is not We don't share data in real 431 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,080 Speaker 3: time with the American Okay. But it's in a small 432 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 3: fishing village called Varda, and it's on a tiny island, 433 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 3: the easternmost point of Norway. It's north of Chickenus, across 434 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 3: the fjord. Like looking at Rasha, basically this tiny place. 435 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 3: It's so far east that you're actually like, you're east 436 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 3: of his stumble. You don't think of Norway A's as 437 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:07,760 Speaker 3: east of his dumble, but it's east of his stumble. 438 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 3: It's used to Saint Petersburg anywhere that you're in the town. 439 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 3: You can see these huge radar balls that dominate the skyline, 440 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 3: But all the locals just pretend they're not there, and 441 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 3: I half of them like have family members who work there, 442 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 3: whether as intelligence officers or as like cleaning staff. 443 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: We'll be back. 444 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 2: After a short break with more from Ben Taub about 445 00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: how the twentieth century's most terrifying tech hangs over everything 446 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 2: in the Arctic. Stay with us. You know, you mentioned 447 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: that none of this would be such a big problem 448 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 2: if you know Russian submarines had access to the Atlantic 449 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 2: from a different port, which, of course brings me to 450 00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 2: the big tech kahuna hanging over this whole story, which 451 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 2: is a nuclear bomb. 452 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 4: Yeah. 453 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 2: Arguably the greatest and most terrifying technological innovation of the 454 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,720 Speaker 2: twentieth century, and as far as I understand, really the 455 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 2: reason why this place that you went is such a flashpoint. 456 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, at the end of the day, this place matters 457 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,239 Speaker 3: in the event of escalations, and everything that's done by 458 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 3: the Russian security services, all the mapping of the infrastructure, 459 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 3: all the influence operations on the locals is with an 460 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 3: eye to maintaining or creating the ability to take over 461 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 3: northern Norway, not because they want it like they want Ukraine, 462 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 3: but to build out a buffer zone to protect the 463 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 3: Northern Fleet, to maintain the ability to fire nuclear weapons 464 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 3: from submarines in the event of all. 465 00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 4: That nuclear war. 466 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:52,440 Speaker 3: So the delicate cat and mask, all the paight poseidons, 467 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 3: all the intel collection, all the on the Russian side, 468 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 3: like mapping out the infrastructure of a tiny Arctic village, 469 00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 3: is just about can we take over northern Norway in 470 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 3: a flash to build out a buffer to feel more 471 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 3: confident that we don't need to find nuclear weapons if 472 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 3: we get into a real conflict with the West. So 473 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 3: you feel the war in Ukraine in Churchiness, like there's 474 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 3: a tiny Russian consulate in Churchiness. There's a lot of 475 00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 3: Russian dissidents in Ukrainian refugees living in Churchiness. There's Ukrainian 476 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 3: flags in the center of town, and like protesting the 477 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 3: Russian consulate in front of you. So you really do 478 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 3: feel you feel the Ukraine War in Churchiness because ultimately, 479 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 3: escalation anywhere in the Baltics, in Poland, in Ukraine is 480 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: always about turning up the temperature on nuclear threats. 481 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 2: And how much of the nuclear infrastructure nuclear submarines. Nuclear 482 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: weapon delivery system in this area is holdover from Soviet 483 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 2: Union times, and how much of it is new systems 484 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 2: that are being developed and invested in and researched in 485 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 2: this area. 486 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 3: With the invasion of Ukraine, it became sort of broadly 487 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,160 Speaker 3: clear to the world that the Russian military is using 488 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 3: all kinds of old Soviet garbage and the personnel, the 489 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,360 Speaker 3: officers are bad and everything sucks, right, But. 490 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 4: That is not true of the Northern Fleet. 491 00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 3: Putin has invested so deeply in the nuclear submarine capacity. 492 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:22,239 Speaker 4: This is the state of the art. 493 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 3: In the nineties, the Northern Fleet was in absolute disarray, 494 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 3: but in the early two thousands, Putin really really prioritized 495 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 3: as a strategic matter the development of proper nuclear submarines. 496 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:35,960 Speaker 3: And those subs are quiet, they're fast, they're state of 497 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: the art, and the weapons systems on board are thought 498 00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 3: to be the same. So there is no obvious asymmetries 499 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:46,479 Speaker 3: that I'm aware of. 500 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 2: So more than Ukraine, this is the existential area for 501 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 2: Russian and self defense. 502 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 4: That's exactly right. 503 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 3: The Cola Peninsula is the existential area because this is 504 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 3: their last resort without nuclear weapons. Russia's economy is that 505 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 3: Italy with nuclear weapons. You know, they have their way 506 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 3: in the world. Those subs are highly capable, and they're 507 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:12,840 Speaker 3: also investing a ton in development systems for delivery of 508 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 3: nuclear weapons. So the Varda Globus station is really fundamentally 509 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 3: about the first layer of missile defense. So the Russians 510 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 3: have threatened the Bombvarda a couple of times. They've flown jets, 511 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 3: fighter jets at it in strike formation and then peeled 512 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 3: off just before they crossed international waters. And you wouldn't 513 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 3: see this if you're a civilian, but like the Varda 514 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 3: station is monitoring everything and they see these jets flying 515 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 3: at them to bomb them. And the brilliance of globis 516 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 3: has a technical matter and the reasons the most advanced 517 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 3: globalist three radar station in the world is that it 518 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 3: has the ability I was told to distinguish. When you're 519 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 3: launching nuclear weapons out of a submarine or aircraft or 520 00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 3: other place, there's multiple ballistic missiles going off at once, 521 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 3: each of which has several nuclear warheads, each of which 522 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 3: can go to a different target. So you're talking about 523 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 3: you know, a single nuclear sub can hit eighty targets 524 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 3: or one hundred targets or something and destroy. 525 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 4: An entire nation. 526 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 3: So the critical thing about Vard station the globis is 527 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 3: that it can distinguish which ones have nuclear warheads on 528 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 3: board and which ones are empty ballistic missiles as a distraction. 529 00:27:16,000 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 3: But layer one is can you detect which ones to prioritize, 530 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 3: because if you're dealing with one hundred missiles flying at 531 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 3: you at once, you need to know which ones to 532 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 3: really really worry about. And that's what that is all about, 533 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 3: and that's why the Russians hate it so much. Comes 534 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 3: back to the beginning of your story in that idea 535 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 3: of camouflage. Yeah, it's all about detection, and most of 536 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 3: it doesn't happen in the visual spectrum. Everything's electromagnetic, and 537 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,359 Speaker 3: like everything's done in ways that we cannot physically see. 538 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 3: That's why again, like you know, you see some equipment 539 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 3: on a watch tower or in the P eight and 540 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:47,199 Speaker 3: as a lay person, I don't know what it is. 541 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 3: But also it would be impossible to explain even if 542 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 3: I didn't know what it was, because it's like it's 543 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 3: the kind of thing that. 544 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 4: Really really really really. 545 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:59,440 Speaker 3: Matters to the militaries but doesn't really matter to everyday life. 546 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 2: Just described Trickiness as as a crucible or a testing ground. 547 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 2: Have you seen any of the technologies or tactics that 548 00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: have been deployed. 549 00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, so it is. 550 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,800 Speaker 3: It's basically the test ground for things that are then 551 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,119 Speaker 3: replicated elsewhere at scale. So the GPS jamming now it's ubiquitous. 552 00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 3: There's a whole sort of host of close calls in 553 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 3: the Baltics with pilots losing their GPS positions starting again 554 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,480 Speaker 3: last fall. But again this has been tested in Schickeness 555 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 3: for many, many years before, so it's really become this, 556 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 3: as you said, a crucible, a place where you test 557 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 3: the limits of what you can get away with and 558 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 3: what a Western democracy and society will tolerate, how it 559 00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 3: will try to explain or not explain things to its population. 560 00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 3: And then where the sort of limits are in terms 561 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 3: of sort of what is a military operation and what's 562 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: merely a phenomenon that's left unexplained. 563 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:57,640 Speaker 1: What do you think might happen next? 564 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,240 Speaker 4: It's tricky to know, of course. 565 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 3: Johann described to me the goal of all of these 566 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 3: operations in Shaickinness as preparations for war. That doesn't mean 567 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 3: that war will ever happen, or that anyone wants that 568 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 3: war to happen. But if you're an FSB officer or 569 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,840 Speaker 3: a GRU officer stationed in the Colo Peninsula and your 570 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 3: job is to prepare a war plan in case we 571 00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 3: do need one, then you need to send people in 572 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,320 Speaker 3: and map all the infrastructure in shackiness and know exactly 573 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,400 Speaker 3: what to hit and exactly how so that you do 574 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:36,200 Speaker 3: have a plan for a war that you don't want 575 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 3: to ever get the order to pursue. And I think 576 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 3: most people hear the phrase preparations for war, they think 577 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 3: that that's backed by an intention for war. But there's 578 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 3: a difference, a major difference between preparations and intentions. 579 00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:53,160 Speaker 2: As a closing thought, I think one of the most 580 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 2: striking lines on your whole piece was when one of 581 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: the sources said to you the Russian ruined a great 582 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 2: spy game with their war in Ukraine. What does that mean? 583 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 3: He and I talked a lot about that line, because 584 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 3: he didn't want to be flippant about the stakes in 585 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 3: Ukraine and suggesting that that was that it was ever 586 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 3: for fun. But there is an element of respect among 587 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 3: intelligence officers where you unravel the other operation and you 588 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 3: think well done. That was a good one. What are 589 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 3: we missing? Especially in his job. In his role, he's 590 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,520 Speaker 3: not running offensive operations against the Russians, He's trying to 591 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 3: figure out what are they doing in Norway to us? 592 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 3: So like there's a respect among spies for job well done, 593 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 3: game well played. 594 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 4: We know you're doing this to us, We're going to 595 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 4: do the same to you. 596 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 3: We're going to try to catch who you've sent into 597 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 3: our territory and try to flip them right back on you. 598 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 3: He described it to me as a kind of it's 599 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 3: like playing chess, but you don't know what the rules are, 600 00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 3: where any of the pieces are going, because it's changing constantly, 601 00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 3: and suddenly it became about something else. When the war 602 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 3: in Ukraine kicked off, it was about aggression. It was 603 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 3: about planning for war, and it was about hurting people 604 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 3: and creating the circumstances where things can go really poorly, 605 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 3: really fast. One of his favorite lines, which I quite enjoyed, 606 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 3: was that conor intelligence is like playing tennis and you 607 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 3: see a ball flying towards you, and you're about to 608 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,480 Speaker 3: smash it, and then you just realize that it's an 609 00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 3: orange and so everything you can look so closely at 610 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 3: something and then only at the last second discover that 611 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 3: everything you thought was completely wrong. 612 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 2: BENTAALV, thank you, Thank you Oz. That's it for this 613 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 2: edition of tech Stuff. I'm os Vloshin and this episode 614 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 2: was produced by Eliza Dennis, Victoria Dominguez and Lizzie Jacobs. 615 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 2: It was executive produced by me Kara Price and Kate Osborne, 616 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: The Kaleidoscope and Katrina Novelle for iHeart Podcasts. We've had 617 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 2: engineering help from the Heath Fraser and City Box. Jack 618 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. 619 00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: Join us on Friday for. 620 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 2: A special episode with a familiar voice, Jonathan Strickland. Please rate, 621 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: review and reach out to us at tech Stuff podcast 622 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,080 Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. 623 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: We want to hear from them.