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Speaker 1: Pushkin crim Bailey Ray's an English singer songwriter whose career

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Speaker 1: started with a bang. In two thousand and six, her

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Speaker 1: debut album Talked to UK charts and was certified triple

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Speaker 1: platinum with the help of her first hit single, put

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Speaker 1: Your Records On. A slew of awards and other best

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Speaker 1: New Artists distinctions followed. As she put out subsequent albums,

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Speaker 1: Krin aspired to stretch herself as an artist beyond neo

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Speaker 1: soul pop music's success. In September, krim Bailey Ray released

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Speaker 1: her fourth album, Black Rainbows. It's an album inspired by

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Speaker 1: her time spent exploring Chicago's historic Stony Island Arts Bank,

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Speaker 1: a vast collection of black cultural relics and writing. Krin's

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Speaker 1: new album is in many ways a reaction to the

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Speaker 1: art she consumed in that archive. It's performed in a

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Speaker 1: mix of jazz, rock and the avant garde. On today's episode,

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Speaker 1: I talked to krim Bailey Rays about the years she

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Speaker 1: spent in the Arts Bank archives and the stories that

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Speaker 1: inspired her new work. She also talked about her record

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Speaker 1: label's exhaustive efforts to push her to recreate the success

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Speaker 1: of her first album, and how a Skateboarding magazine helped

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Speaker 1: clarify the look of her new record. This is broken

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Speaker 1: record liner notes for the Digital Age.

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Speaker 2: I'm justin Mitchman.

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Speaker 1: Here's my conversation with Corinne Bailey Ray your record. I

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Speaker 1: listened to it, I guess went for a walk to

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Speaker 1: go get some coffee and listen to it again. Like,

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Speaker 1: it is really surprising how many different sounds are on here.

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Speaker 2: Like I loved that. I never settled into like a

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Speaker 2: groove listening to it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like each with each song, it's like it's

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Speaker 1: kind of growing, evolving, changing.

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Speaker 2: It's it's awesome.

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Speaker 4: It's incredible, Thanks very much.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted to have all these different styles, but

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Speaker 3: it really came about naturally from responding to the objects,

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Speaker 3: responding to the events. The idea that came seemed to

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Speaker 3: be in a particular style, whether it was, you know,

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Speaker 3: a punk song, or whether it's more aggressive guitars, or

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Speaker 3: whether it's more like a ballad or something more psychedelic.

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Speaker 4: Like it all it all just kind of presenting itself

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Speaker 4: to me like that. But yeah, it is. It bounces

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Speaker 4: you around a lot.

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Speaker 1: What were the first handful of songs that you came

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Speaker 1: up with for the record. I'm just curious how, you know,

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Speaker 1: like how it started and how it evolved sonically.

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Speaker 3: I think the first handful of songs were I wrote

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Speaker 3: some and the residency. I went to the Arts Bank

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Speaker 3: winside encountered the Arts Bank building, you know, Stoney Island

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Speaker 3: Arts Bank in Chicago. You can see pictures of it online.

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Speaker 3: It's the foundation that runs it. It's called the Rebuild Foundation.

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Speaker 3: It's on the South Side of Chicago, which I don't

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Speaker 3: know how much you know about the South Side, but

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Speaker 3: it was a very vibrant, middle class black area in

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Speaker 3: the sixties and then it's just had so much decline

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Speaker 3: and unfunding and now it's really and there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of difficult issues there with housing, mental health, drugs, violence.

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Speaker 3: But there's this one building there on Stoney Island that

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Speaker 3: hasn't been pulled down by the city. This city wanted

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Speaker 3: to pull it down, and Theasta Gates saved it.

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Speaker 4: He bought it for a dollar and saved.

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Speaker 3: And raised four million dollars by selling his own art

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Speaker 3: to make this a building again.

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Speaker 4: So instead of being full of money, it's full of art.

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Speaker 3: It's full of art artifacts, it's full of twenty six

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Speaker 3: thousand books that were submitted to the Johnson Foundation, who

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Speaker 3: did Ebony magazine and Jet Magazine, So all the books exactly,

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Speaker 3: so all the books that were submitted to them over

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Speaker 3: the years for review, as well as the books that

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Speaker 3: John Johnson and the Johnson's collected. And then it has

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Speaker 3: all the Frankie Knuckles records. So it's got this big

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Speaker 3: slice of you know, Chicago house music. And it has

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Speaker 3: all the glass slides from the University of Chicago. So

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Speaker 3: when they digitized their archive, they just gave all this

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Speaker 3: a bank they.

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Speaker 4: Had nowhere to store it all.

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Speaker 3: And it also has all these difficult objects that were

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Speaker 3: pulled out of circulation by a black and Chinese banker

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Speaker 3: called Ed Williams, problematic objects from America's past, you know,

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Speaker 3: the trinkets and the mammy jars and newspaper articles, photographs, cartoons,

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Speaker 3: all of these things that he would find in flea

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Speaker 3: markets and yard sales that he wanted to just buy

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Speaker 3: and putting a box in his house. So nobody else

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Speaker 3: was buying them and putting them in their house and

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Speaker 3: keeping it all going. So he had these boxes and

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Speaker 3: boxes and things, and they became too much even for

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Speaker 3: him to be around sixteen thousand objects, so they are

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Speaker 3: also all in the bank as well. So I went

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Speaker 3: looking around just as a tourist, as someone who's interested

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Speaker 3: in history and black histories and stories and hidden stories

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Speaker 3: and raised stories. And when I left, I just couldn't help.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I was just scribbling a poem here

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Speaker 3: or starting to write a song here, and I spoke

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Speaker 3: to the asktra about it, and he said, you know,

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Speaker 3: you should come be an artist in residence.

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Speaker 4: You know, they have buildings nearby.

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Speaker 3: So we stayed there for two weeks and just really

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Speaker 3: dug into the archives, read loads of books, sol loads

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Speaker 3: of objects, attended loads of events, and then I've just

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Speaker 3: been going back there very regularly all through these years,

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Speaker 3: you know, since twenty seventeen. So I mean the first

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Speaker 3: song I ever wrote about the bank was called you

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Speaker 3: who Walk These Floors in Fear because I had seen

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Speaker 3: a sculpture that was made from the abandoned floorboards from

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Speaker 3: a police station, and the police station have been left

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Speaker 3: for many decades, and these floorboards are from there.

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Speaker 4: And I thought about what they had been witnessed to.

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Speaker 3: You know how often in history it's the witnesses are silent,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're the buildings, they're the windows, they're the trees,

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Speaker 3: the soil, the slave cabin that, you know, the things

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Speaker 3: that can't talk, but they you know, they've seen a truth.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the first thing I wrote.

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Speaker 3: That's kind of on I guess a part two of

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Speaker 3: the record, which I haven't finished.

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Speaker 4: Then I wrote he will follow with his Eyes.

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Speaker 3: And erasure, and then maybe before the Throne of the

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Speaker 3: Invisible God.

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Speaker 4: It just kind of you started from there.

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Speaker 1: He will follow you with his eyes? Is it certainly

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Speaker 1: like a dance element to it, So maybe that's the

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Speaker 1: Frankie Knuckles Chicago house of it all. Well, how did

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Speaker 1: you write that song? Like start off with words? When

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Speaker 1: we had a piano.

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Speaker 4: Guitar with he will follow You with his Eyes?

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Speaker 3: I had seen all this advertising and I'd found a tin.

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Speaker 4: Of a beauty product when I was in Chicago.

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Speaker 3: I'd opened the drawers of the stone in the Ed

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Speaker 3: Williams collection and seen this tin and it had this

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Speaker 3: beautiful illustration on and it was this company called Valmore.

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Speaker 3: So then when I was home, I was doing all

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Speaker 3: this research about Valmore and finding out they were kind

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Speaker 3: of like the Avon of their day. So they would

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Speaker 3: sell these beauty products door to door. The guy who

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Speaker 3: did the art for them, they all had these amazing

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Speaker 3: illustrations online drawings, and it was this black artist called

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Speaker 3: Charles Dawson.

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Speaker 4: So they had very sympathetic drawings.

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Speaker 3: You know that the line was targeted at black men

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Speaker 3: and women, and it was targeted in this really romantic way.

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Speaker 3: Whoever did the marketing was really good. So the perfumes

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Speaker 3: would be called things like follow me boy or look

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Speaker 3: me Over. And then when you'd read something in you know,

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Speaker 3: Ebony or another publication about Valmore, and it would have

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Speaker 3: all the products listed, it would say in a big

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Speaker 3: banner across the top, you know, his.

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Speaker 4: Eyes will follow you across the room.

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Speaker 3: You know, and it would be then it'd be a

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Speaker 3: series of wigs or something that they were selling. So

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Speaker 3: they sold all kinds of things. And I thought about

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Speaker 3: Valmore and just how.

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Speaker 4: Enticing it was. You know.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes I'd read about the hair products and think, I

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Speaker 3: wonder if you could still get this, because it sounded

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Speaker 3: like from the.

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Speaker 4: Description that it did everything.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's like it's nourishes but it's not greasy,

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Speaker 3: and you know it it's a styling product and it's

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Speaker 3: it's a premade and it's and I thought, gosh.

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Speaker 4: They were so good.

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Speaker 3: Their marketing was really good, and obviously it was it

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Speaker 3: was the sympathetic view of black men and women, but

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Speaker 3: it was very much aligned with white beauty. So the

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Speaker 3: beauty they we're aiming at was, you know, lighter skin,

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Speaker 3: straight a hair, all of these things. So I guess

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Speaker 3: with a song, I wanted to present a kind of

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Speaker 3: nineteen fifties dream world where you're really under the spell

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Speaker 3: of this kind of advertising. You know, you can imagine

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Speaker 3: them knocking at the door, and if you're a black woman,

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Speaker 3: you know you're going to be taking the hair straightening

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Speaker 3: cream and you're going to be taking the skin lightning

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Speaker 3: cream and all.

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Speaker 4: Of those things.

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Speaker 3: But halfway through the song, the person who has been

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Speaker 3: very much under the spell of our more, you know,

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Speaker 3: there's this sonic disruption and then they end up saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, I don't want to vanish into a girl

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Speaker 3: that I don't recognize.

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Speaker 4: You know, if you.

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Speaker 3: Want to run to sweet sweet Georgia brown with another

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Speaker 3: kind of skin lightning cream, you know, light light brown

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Speaker 3: is the thing.

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Speaker 4: Not dark.

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Speaker 1: After that line, it's like a break in. It's like

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Speaker 1: a break in the song.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a total break and the person everything just

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Speaker 3: falls away and it gets much more contemporary, and it's just,

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Speaker 3: you know, I'll be there with my plum red lipstick

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Speaker 3: when Black Hair King came my Black Skin gleaming. I

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Speaker 3: wanted it to be a sort of a shock and

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Speaker 3: kind of you know, really assertive, and that the person

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Speaker 3: would be sort of back in there, back in their

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Speaker 3: self and away from this really enticing beauty which held

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Speaker 3: many people under its way for a really long time.

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Speaker 1: The repetition of those lines make it really feel like

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Speaker 1: like a cold arm as much as like a refrain.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's just it's beautiful, and like the way

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Speaker 1: it just repeats, repeats, repeats, and the production evolves over

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Speaker 1: that second half of the song, it's like it feels

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Speaker 1: it feels subversive in.

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Speaker 2: A very cool way. Thank you as you're.

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Speaker 1: Writing out the words, you know, at that point the

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Speaker 1: song should move into something else.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted it to be a shift away from

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Speaker 3: you know, in the beginning, we had vibraphones and guitars

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Speaker 3: and we had strings, and it was all very dreamy

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Speaker 3: as imagining. Like you know, there's probably Californian movies that

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Speaker 3: were shot, you know, where a car would be sort

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Speaker 3: of winding round the roads, wrapping a mountainside and the sunshining.

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Speaker 4: You know, that kind of fifties.

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Speaker 3: Dream world, and you can live in it, but at

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Speaker 3: some point you have to when you break out of it,

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Speaker 3: you realize how all consuming it was. And so yeah,

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Speaker 3: I really wanted to have that repetition back, but I

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Speaker 3: wrote it on guitars, so that would always just be

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Speaker 3: like pulling one string.

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Speaker 4: Plum red lipstick man Blake hit.

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Speaker 3: And then I guess when we did it in the studio,

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Speaker 3: we just you know, we wanted wanted it to evolve, like,

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Speaker 3: didn't don't bring the base straight away and have this

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Speaker 3: more like cosmic sort of weird jazz moments is like

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Speaker 3: is it futuristic? Is it seventies? It's you know what

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Speaker 3: we wanted it to be. We want to be different

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Speaker 3: to what had gone before.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's incredible. It's really cool.

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Speaker 1: And the tone of the beginning does sort of remind

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Speaker 1: me of like, well, like the late fifties, like early

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Speaker 1: sixties almost like a it's akin to like a Frankie

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Speaker 1: Valley production or something. But then yet again, just like

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Speaker 1: everything else on the record, it's like halfway through it's like,

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Speaker 1: oh shit, we're under something else now.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 3: I really liked it, and I thought, you know, some

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Speaker 3: people were saying it's close to what your sound has

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Speaker 3: been historically. So I really liked the idea that you

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Speaker 3: might put it on and be like, oh, finally I

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Speaker 3: can just kind of relax.

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Speaker 4: In this, you know.

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Speaker 3: But then you listen to words. What is she saying?

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Speaker 3: She's saying lighter and bright? Why is she's saying longer

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Speaker 3: and straighter? And you know it's kind of you know,

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Speaker 3: I feel like the eye in that song is not

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Speaker 3: really me. It's kind of this I don't know, Shirley

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Speaker 3: Bassie type Earth Kit, you know, delivery everything, you know, everything,

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Speaker 3: you know, I want to when I was being more

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Speaker 3: dramatic than I would normalss sing it, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: trying to sort of be in that world.

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy to hear Shirley Bassie reference like she's

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Speaker 1: incredible and no one talks about her anymore. She's and say,

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Speaker 1: with the earth of Kit, I can just uniquely bizarre

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Speaker 1: but beautiful voice.

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Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, I love that.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I didn't want to say that, but

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Speaker 2: that's what was my response.

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Speaker 1: Listening to the albums, when it got to that song,

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, okay, something that not you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not that like I pigeonhole you in my mind.

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Speaker 1: But by the time I got that song, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this feels like for MEI terrain.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and it was.

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Speaker 3: And that's you know, writing it in this sort of

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Speaker 3: buzz and over a guitar style. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 3: I write a lot of songs from there, so yeah.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 1: There's like it's not like you rap on it, but

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Speaker 1: there's some tracks like New York Transit Queen really where

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Speaker 1: it sounds almost like similar to the way ESG like

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Speaker 1: kind of like it was like they weren't rapping, but

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Speaker 1: they were like aggressively talking on the track, but also rhythmically.

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Speaker 2: It was like, that's very cool.

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Speaker 4: It's a really cool reference because I did find.

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Speaker 3: That the ESG record amongst Frankie Knichols stuff as well,

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Speaker 3: you know, Frankie Nickles archive. Wow.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's like.

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Speaker 3: This band is so cool. I don't know enough about them,

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Speaker 3: you know, I don't know enough about them, but yeah,

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Speaker 3: I really want to use my voice in all these

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Speaker 3: different ways on the record. I mean, I think all

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Speaker 3: it was a side project, so I didn't feel any

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Speaker 3: sort of beholding to the music that I've done before,

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Speaker 3: and I thought, it doesn't matter if it's really different

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Speaker 3: to what I've done. In fact, it should be really

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Speaker 3: different to what I've done, because it's it's.

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Speaker 4: A side project. It's not me.

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Speaker 3: It's like you know, I was calling it for it

284
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Speaker 3: was like the Chicago Project was for ages. It was

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Speaker 3: just that, and firstly it was going to be an

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Speaker 3: EP and then it turned into more but it Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it was only really towards the end of it that

288
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Speaker 3: I thought, oh, I really should claim this as my own.

289
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Speaker 3: It has been my obsession for the last seven years

290
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Speaker 3: and I want it to beat my record now.

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Speaker 4: It's only really when I saw my name on it.

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Speaker 3: You know, we worked in this brilliant graph artist called

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Speaker 3: Manu Shribley, his art designer, and I'd seen his writing

294
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Speaker 3: on a skateboard magazine.

295
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Speaker 4: And then just kept calling him like please, please, can

296
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Speaker 4: you do that? It just has to be you?

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Speaker 3: And but I realized I hadn't told him, don't put

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Speaker 3: my name on, so I told him, you know his

299
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Speaker 3: photos and it's called Black Rainbows. But I hadn't quite explained, Oh,

300
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Speaker 3: it's not really my project, it's a side. So when

301
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Speaker 3: I saw my name written down, forgot to tell him

302
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Speaker 3: not to put it on. But then when I saw

303
00:14:01,276 --> 00:14:03,076
Speaker 3: it in the way, just even the way he'd written,

304
00:14:03,116 --> 00:14:07,796
Speaker 3: it made me reimagine myself. It was really weird, but

305
00:14:08,076 --> 00:14:10,876
Speaker 3: just something about the waste and that script just been

306
00:14:10,956 --> 00:14:15,116
Speaker 3: free from all the different fonts that I feel like

307
00:14:15,156 --> 00:14:17,636
Speaker 3: I've tried as sort of logos of my own name,

308
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Speaker 3: and then suddenly there was just this free writing, and

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Speaker 3: I thought, yeah, I really like I like how that looks.

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Speaker 4: I like how that is.

311
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Speaker 2: Do you typically look through skate magazines or is that?

312
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Speaker 4: It was just it was a real fluke. It was

313
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Speaker 4: just the way they had it presented.

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Speaker 3: I think I've probably got it here that when I

315
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Speaker 3: saw so, it's like, who's this elegant sort of black

316
00:14:36,996 --> 00:14:39,516
Speaker 3: teenager on the front and then this writing. I mean,

317
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Speaker 3: so I couldn't even work out when it was cool

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Speaker 3: at the time. I think that's renaissance issue. But the

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00:14:48,316 --> 00:14:53,756
Speaker 3: magazine's called Numbered, But I really really like magazine shopping,

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Speaker 3: and there's this there's a shop called Colours May Fay

321
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Speaker 3: and leads that I go to.

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Speaker 4: But there's also this.

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Speaker 3: Store that's it has like a car heart downstairs and

324
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Speaker 3: loads of skating, but it's got magazines upstairs, and it's

325
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Speaker 3: everything from punk z means, you know, like rad you know,

326
00:15:13,516 --> 00:15:18,356
Speaker 3: trans by, Queer publications, and and then.

327
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Speaker 4: Just art house stuff and fashion stuff, and.

328
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Speaker 3: So I always think magazines are really special. I mean,

329
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Speaker 3: I know you can get loads of loads online now,

330
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Speaker 3: but just seeing how someone's put all the work into

331
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Speaker 3: it and putting it together, and you know, it costs

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Speaker 3: money to make all these shoots, so I think like

333
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Speaker 3: you can pay your seven pounds or twelve pounds or

334
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Speaker 3: whatever it is. And I'm still really analogued. I love

335
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Speaker 3: coming home from town. There's just like ten magazines and

336
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Speaker 3: then you get to see like, oh who was the

337
00:15:43,236 --> 00:15:45,796
Speaker 3: art director, who was the you know, so I really

338
00:15:45,836 --> 00:15:47,436
Speaker 3: like to do that, and I like to read in

339
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Speaker 3: the bath, you know. So it's just you can't really

340
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Speaker 3: do that with your phone, just you end up destroying

341
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Speaker 3: your phone.

342
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Speaker 4: I've done it before, I have, I have I do.

343
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Speaker 4: Why did I do that? Yeah?

344
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Speaker 2: Way less fun?

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00:15:57,756 --> 00:15:58,036
Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I feel like at some point people

347
00:15:59,876 --> 00:16:01,956
Speaker 1: will realize, just like with Vinyl, you know, it's that

348
00:16:02,036 --> 00:16:04,836
Speaker 1: it's like it's much more fun. You could scroll Instagram

349
00:16:05,196 --> 00:16:08,716
Speaker 1: or TikTok or Twitter or whatever, but it's way less fun.

350
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Speaker 3: It's fun, but also there's a limit to it, which

351
00:16:11,796 --> 00:16:13,756
Speaker 3: is good, where you know, you never get to the

352
00:16:13,796 --> 00:16:16,236
Speaker 3: back page of the Internet, and so your brain is

353
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Speaker 3: I've got this completest thing sometimes when I'm on Instagram

354
00:16:19,556 --> 00:16:22,156
Speaker 3: and then I'll look up and hours have gone past,

355
00:16:22,196 --> 00:16:24,836
Speaker 3: and i think I'm trying to just get to the end,

356
00:16:24,916 --> 00:16:27,236
Speaker 3: and the rule will be no end, whereas with a magazine,

357
00:16:27,276 --> 00:16:29,716
Speaker 3: you know, when you've done the whole thing, you.

358
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Speaker 1: Know, you know, yeah, it's kind of it's nice. It's

359
00:16:32,316 --> 00:16:33,756
Speaker 1: kind of like a sad thing because you've got to

360
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Speaker 1: wait for the get healthy.

361
00:16:35,756 --> 00:16:37,236
Speaker 4: It's healthy.

362
00:16:37,276 --> 00:16:39,596
Speaker 3: Now go and eat some food or like go outside

363
00:16:39,676 --> 00:16:43,636
Speaker 3: for a work. You know, that's dead eyed scrolling thing

364
00:16:43,676 --> 00:16:45,396
Speaker 3: that you can get to it like just before you

365
00:16:45,436 --> 00:16:45,796
Speaker 3: go to bed.

366
00:16:45,876 --> 00:16:49,476
Speaker 4: It's so bad, you know, really try not to do it. Now.

367
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Speaker 1: We're going to pause for a quick break and then

368
00:16:52,196 --> 00:16:55,436
Speaker 1: come back with more of my conversation with Krein Bailey Ray.

369
00:17:00,116 --> 00:17:03,596
Speaker 1: We're back with Karin Bailey Ray. So you really you

370
00:17:03,716 --> 00:17:05,916
Speaker 1: weren't thinking of it as a side project. Just as

371
00:17:05,956 --> 00:17:10,676
Speaker 1: a way to trick yourself into being a bit more

372
00:17:10,876 --> 00:17:12,916
Speaker 1: outside of your comfort zone and music making. You were

373
00:17:13,036 --> 00:17:16,556
Speaker 1: legitimately thinking about this as something that would not have

374
00:17:16,636 --> 00:17:17,236
Speaker 1: your name on it.

375
00:17:17,236 --> 00:17:19,116
Speaker 3: It wouldn't have my name on it, and then I thought, oh,

376
00:17:19,116 --> 00:17:22,036
Speaker 3: I'd like, you know, people could be pleasantly surprised if

377
00:17:22,076 --> 00:17:23,876
Speaker 3: they found out that it was me. But I was

378
00:17:23,916 --> 00:17:26,676
Speaker 3: really I think because as soon as I thought of

379
00:17:26,716 --> 00:17:29,636
Speaker 3: it as a side project, then I just felt completely free.

380
00:17:30,316 --> 00:17:33,196
Speaker 3: I'm not doing it for a label, and it doesn't

381
00:17:33,236 --> 00:17:35,556
Speaker 3: have to have radio songs. It doesn't have to have

382
00:17:35,596 --> 00:17:37,796
Speaker 3: three minute songs. They don't have to be catchy, they

383
00:17:37,796 --> 00:17:40,236
Speaker 3: don't have a tradition, have to have a traditional form,

384
00:17:40,676 --> 00:17:43,196
Speaker 3: you know, like some of them don't have a second verse,

385
00:17:43,276 --> 00:17:45,316
Speaker 3: or some of them have no choruses, or some of

386
00:17:45,316 --> 00:17:48,076
Speaker 3: them have eight verses, or whatever it is.

387
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Speaker 4: I just wanted to make and I wanted it to be.

388
00:17:50,676 --> 00:17:53,756
Speaker 3: Kind of messy, and I felt all the time really

389
00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:54,636
Speaker 3: excited that.

390
00:17:55,676 --> 00:17:55,876
Speaker 4: You know.

391
00:17:56,196 --> 00:17:59,036
Speaker 3: I think before I would have had a song like

392
00:17:59,156 --> 00:18:02,876
Speaker 3: before the Throne of the Invisible God. And then thought, Okay,

393
00:18:02,916 --> 00:18:05,316
Speaker 3: what else can it do? Maybe I should put in

394
00:18:05,316 --> 00:18:06,876
Speaker 3: a middle eight, or maybe I should now have got

395
00:18:06,876 --> 00:18:08,116
Speaker 3: to get it smaller, and I've got.

396
00:18:07,956 --> 00:18:10,676
Speaker 4: To get it shorter. Could the beat did it? You know?

397
00:18:10,716 --> 00:18:12,476
Speaker 2: And I just where does that come from?

398
00:18:12,516 --> 00:18:12,716
Speaker 4: In you?

399
00:18:12,876 --> 00:18:15,276
Speaker 3: I think it's just for years of being a label,

400
00:18:15,516 --> 00:18:18,036
Speaker 3: you know, where you're interacting with people. I mean, when

401
00:18:18,076 --> 00:18:21,676
Speaker 3: I did my first album, it wasn't without any A

402
00:18:21,796 --> 00:18:23,476
Speaker 3: and R at all, because we had this really good

403
00:18:23,556 --> 00:18:26,916
Speaker 3: DJ called Gary Davis who would sort of I was

404
00:18:26,956 --> 00:18:29,996
Speaker 3: working in a production company with him, so but pretty

405
00:18:30,076 --> 00:18:32,516
Speaker 3: much we did it amongst ourselves. It was me and

406
00:18:32,556 --> 00:18:36,316
Speaker 3: Steve Chrisanthau underneath this art shop in a place, a

407
00:18:36,476 --> 00:18:39,476
Speaker 3: sort of place out of town near Leeds in Yorkshire.

408
00:18:40,356 --> 00:18:42,876
Speaker 3: And then we could take it to the labels and

409
00:18:42,956 --> 00:18:46,636
Speaker 3: say here we are, it's whatever, it's twelve songs.

410
00:18:46,676 --> 00:18:48,436
Speaker 4: Do you like it? Do you not like it? Some

411
00:18:48,516 --> 00:18:49,716
Speaker 4: of them loved it, some of them.

412
00:18:49,556 --> 00:18:51,916
Speaker 3: Didn't get it, And then we interviewed and then we

413
00:18:52,156 --> 00:18:53,796
Speaker 3: found our home at EMI.

414
00:18:53,876 --> 00:18:54,396
Speaker 4: At that time.

415
00:18:54,676 --> 00:18:56,236
Speaker 1: Well then it sounds like it was sort of you

416
00:18:56,356 --> 00:18:58,116
Speaker 1: more than the label, right, because it's like I mean,

417
00:18:58,156 --> 00:19:01,956
Speaker 1: the first album is very tight sort of part not

418
00:19:02,076 --> 00:19:05,596
Speaker 1: in the vacuous sense, but it's a very tight songwriting.

419
00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:06,796
Speaker 2: It is.

420
00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:10,156
Speaker 3: It's a more sort of pop record and I think,

421
00:19:10,156 --> 00:19:12,636
Speaker 3: but yeah, definitely Gary was an influence on that. It

422
00:19:12,676 --> 00:19:15,316
Speaker 3: was more like I wrote tons of songs and they

423
00:19:15,356 --> 00:19:17,156
Speaker 3: were the songs that people were saying, Oh, it should

424
00:19:17,156 --> 00:19:18,916
Speaker 3: be this one, it should be that one. You know,

425
00:19:18,956 --> 00:19:20,956
Speaker 3: I had a manager at the time I was young.

426
00:19:21,556 --> 00:19:23,236
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, yeah, this one, not that one,

427
00:19:23,316 --> 00:19:26,116
Speaker 3: this one, not that one. I'd already written like a

428
00:19:26,196 --> 00:19:28,836
Speaker 3: style when I was in my band, and of course

429
00:19:28,956 --> 00:19:31,236
Speaker 3: I did want to connect with people, you know, I

430
00:19:32,316 --> 00:19:34,676
Speaker 3: wanted to make it work.

431
00:19:34,716 --> 00:19:36,116
Speaker 4: I wanted people to hear.

432
00:19:35,996 --> 00:19:37,716
Speaker 2: It, you know, wanted to be received.

433
00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:40,596
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I wanted it to be received.

434
00:19:40,636 --> 00:19:43,836
Speaker 3: As you know, I had my English literature degree, but

435
00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:45,516
Speaker 3: I was working in a cafe and working in a

436
00:19:45,596 --> 00:19:48,676
Speaker 3: jewelry counter and you know, going down to London when

437
00:19:48,716 --> 00:19:50,516
Speaker 3: I could to write these songs with people, and I

438
00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:53,676
Speaker 3: really wanted to sort of make it, you know, I

439
00:19:53,716 --> 00:19:54,956
Speaker 3: wanted music to.

440
00:19:54,916 --> 00:19:56,676
Speaker 4: Be the thing that I did. So I did work.

441
00:19:56,836 --> 00:19:58,876
Speaker 3: I worked really having that record, and it went through

442
00:19:58,876 --> 00:20:01,076
Speaker 3: a lot of people's hands in terms of maybe my

443
00:20:01,116 --> 00:20:04,916
Speaker 3: manager saying yes or no, or Gary Davis saying yes

444
00:20:05,036 --> 00:20:08,316
Speaker 3: or no, and then obviously various labels eventually saying yes

445
00:20:08,836 --> 00:20:11,516
Speaker 3: but I think from then on because it was so popular,

446
00:20:12,516 --> 00:20:15,356
Speaker 3: and then felt a real pressure with you know, certainly

447
00:20:15,396 --> 00:20:19,676
Speaker 3: my third album to try and somehow recreate what I

448
00:20:19,716 --> 00:20:22,556
Speaker 3: had already done. But I knew I didn't want to

449
00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:25,036
Speaker 3: because it didn't feel creatively.

450
00:20:24,556 --> 00:20:25,316
Speaker 4: Good to do so.

451
00:20:26,156 --> 00:20:29,716
Speaker 3: But yeah, I'd had so many meetings where I'd be

452
00:20:29,756 --> 00:20:31,756
Speaker 3: really excited about a song, you know, we'd work on it,

453
00:20:31,796 --> 00:20:34,956
Speaker 3: and we'd send it down to whoever was the A

454
00:20:35,076 --> 00:20:37,356
Speaker 3: and R or the label at the time.

455
00:20:37,396 --> 00:20:39,476
Speaker 4: We'd be just like, oh, I'm waiting to hear back.

456
00:20:39,476 --> 00:20:42,476
Speaker 4: I wonder what they'd think, and then you'd get a

457
00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:43,236
Speaker 4: sort of response.

458
00:20:43,276 --> 00:20:48,236
Speaker 3: It'd be like, yeah, it's good, it doesn't sound like

459
00:20:48,236 --> 00:20:50,716
Speaker 3: the first single. It was always this thing about what's

460
00:20:50,756 --> 00:20:51,876
Speaker 3: the first single?

461
00:20:51,996 --> 00:20:53,156
Speaker 4: You know, the first single.

462
00:20:52,916 --> 00:20:55,676
Speaker 3: Has to smash the doors down, the first single has

463
00:20:55,716 --> 00:20:57,676
Speaker 3: to be so catchy, the first single has to be

464
00:20:57,716 --> 00:20:59,956
Speaker 3: a radio friendly, the first single.

465
00:20:59,716 --> 00:21:02,756
Speaker 4: Has to be this. It's unique, it's different, it's you.

466
00:21:02,756 --> 00:21:05,036
Speaker 3: You know, people are basically saying, oh, it needs to

467
00:21:05,076 --> 00:21:08,676
Speaker 3: be what put your records on did. But of course

468
00:21:08,676 --> 00:21:10,556
Speaker 3: that was such a different moment, and it was kind

469
00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:12,556
Speaker 3: of felt like an accident to me. It was just

470
00:21:12,596 --> 00:21:14,756
Speaker 3: like this is a weird song, a little song that

471
00:21:14,796 --> 00:21:17,196
Speaker 3: I love and it wasn't like anything else, but it

472
00:21:17,276 --> 00:21:22,476
Speaker 3: was just accidental that it was successful. So then I always,

473
00:21:22,636 --> 00:21:25,396
Speaker 3: you know, i'd always feel that pressure and I'd put

474
00:21:25,436 --> 00:21:28,356
Speaker 3: what I thought was a good offering forward and the

475
00:21:28,436 --> 00:21:32,636
Speaker 3: response was always like not quite like are you crazy?

476
00:21:33,116 --> 00:21:33,996
Speaker 4: This isn't it?

477
00:21:34,196 --> 00:21:36,796
Speaker 3: But not that far off it, you know, just kind

478
00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:38,996
Speaker 3: of like a bit of sideways look. And then it'd

479
00:21:38,996 --> 00:21:41,236
Speaker 3: be you know, I wrote like a stand my own.

480
00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:44,396
Speaker 4: When I was, you know, a teenager.

481
00:21:44,476 --> 00:21:46,956
Speaker 3: But there would be a sort of like, oh, maybe

482
00:21:46,996 --> 00:21:49,116
Speaker 3: we could pay you with this person or that person.

483
00:21:49,116 --> 00:21:51,476
Speaker 3: So we ended up doing lots of co writing, which

484
00:21:51,516 --> 00:21:53,836
Speaker 3: is always weird where it's like, Hi, we don't know

485
00:21:53,876 --> 00:21:57,516
Speaker 3: each other, we've got five hours, let's make a smash hit.

486
00:21:58,036 --> 00:22:01,716
Speaker 3: But the person would always be like a giant in music,

487
00:22:01,836 --> 00:22:03,756
Speaker 3: you know, so then it's even more intimidating. You're like,

488
00:22:03,796 --> 00:22:06,116
Speaker 3: if this isn't working out, it's me, not them, and

489
00:22:06,436 --> 00:22:08,356
Speaker 3: so I just think it kind of it sort of

490
00:22:08,396 --> 00:22:12,516
Speaker 3: crushed my comforce a lot, and it kind of dinted

491
00:22:12,596 --> 00:22:16,716
Speaker 3: my my radar or my instinct for what was right

492
00:22:16,796 --> 00:22:17,036
Speaker 3: for me.

493
00:22:17,116 --> 00:22:17,996
Speaker 4: I guess, you know, so I.

494
00:22:18,076 --> 00:22:20,316
Speaker 2: Just keep trying that starting with the second record.

495
00:22:20,836 --> 00:22:23,236
Speaker 3: I mean, the second record was different because it was

496
00:22:23,316 --> 00:22:26,356
Speaker 3: kind of a reaction to my first album. So I

497
00:22:26,356 --> 00:22:28,916
Speaker 3: wanted to play more guitars and have it more indie

498
00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:30,676
Speaker 3: because my first record was so much more of a

499
00:22:30,716 --> 00:22:31,516
Speaker 3: pop soul record.

500
00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:32,476
Speaker 2: It felt like an evolution.

501
00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:34,596
Speaker 1: It felt related to your first record, but it felt

502
00:22:34,636 --> 00:22:36,076
Speaker 1: like a step forward.

503
00:22:36,396 --> 00:22:38,676
Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks, and I loved it. And yeah, I guess

504
00:22:38,716 --> 00:22:40,556
Speaker 3: I had got more into jazz and into Saul, but

505
00:22:40,596 --> 00:22:42,676
Speaker 3: I also had all my indie stuff. But I think

506
00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:45,076
Speaker 3: in terms of politically at the label, I had gone

507
00:22:45,076 --> 00:22:47,636
Speaker 3: through a big loss at that time. You know, my

508
00:22:48,116 --> 00:22:52,476
Speaker 3: first husband had died really unexpectedly, and so everyone at

509
00:22:52,516 --> 00:22:54,796
Speaker 3: the label was very kind and understanding and no one

510
00:22:54,956 --> 00:22:58,036
Speaker 3: pushed me at that time. So I felt like the

511
00:22:58,076 --> 00:22:59,796
Speaker 3: first record, I got to do what I want. The

512
00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:01,716
Speaker 3: second record, I'd kind of got to do what I

513
00:23:01,756 --> 00:23:06,436
Speaker 3: want because nobody wanted to upset me or they just

514
00:23:06,436 --> 00:23:09,756
Speaker 3: were happy I was making something and genuine They were

515
00:23:09,796 --> 00:23:12,276
Speaker 3: good people, you know, they you know, they cared a

516
00:23:12,316 --> 00:23:14,156
Speaker 3: lot for me. My one a and that person who

517
00:23:14,196 --> 00:23:16,436
Speaker 3: I still in love, he's a friend. He came up

518
00:23:16,476 --> 00:23:19,076
Speaker 3: to see me like every two weeks with Fancy Cakes

519
00:23:19,116 --> 00:23:21,516
Speaker 3: from London and we just sat and talked about nothing

520
00:23:21,596 --> 00:23:24,556
Speaker 3: and it was a really beautiful time actually, And then

521
00:23:24,596 --> 00:23:28,196
Speaker 3: he occasionally played me like, hey, there's this Bonker's Lady

522
00:23:28,196 --> 00:23:30,636
Speaker 3: Garga and Beyonce song, or have you seen this, or

523
00:23:30,676 --> 00:23:32,116
Speaker 3: like you were trying to tell me what's happening in

524
00:23:32,156 --> 00:23:34,236
Speaker 3: the world, because I was very much in my own bubble.

525
00:23:35,316 --> 00:23:38,796
Speaker 3: So in a way, I think by the third record

526
00:23:39,356 --> 00:23:42,516
Speaker 3: there was a lot of pressure because maybe they had

527
00:23:42,596 --> 00:23:44,796
Speaker 3: wanted to do more with the second record, but they

528
00:23:44,876 --> 00:23:47,596
Speaker 3: couldn't because I was in this delicate place. So the

529
00:23:47,756 --> 00:23:49,716
Speaker 3: third record was like, right, we've really got to make

530
00:23:49,756 --> 00:23:52,436
Speaker 3: this count, you know. And that was the rhetoric around me.

531
00:23:52,476 --> 00:23:55,436
Speaker 3: He's like, yeah, really, this is the one, you know,

532
00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:59,156
Speaker 3: just don't throw it away, that kind of feeling like,

533
00:23:59,356 --> 00:24:01,676
Speaker 3: you know, it's because of that. I just felt this

534
00:24:01,756 --> 00:24:04,436
Speaker 3: immense pressure and I feel like I wrote three albums

535
00:24:04,516 --> 00:24:06,876
Speaker 3: where I could have written one for that.

536
00:24:07,076 --> 00:24:08,756
Speaker 4: And it was just what about this?

537
00:24:09,356 --> 00:24:09,476
Speaker 3: What?

538
00:24:09,516 --> 00:24:14,156
Speaker 4: But this not the first single? Don't really hear it.

539
00:24:14,196 --> 00:24:15,396
Speaker 4: I don't really get that one.

540
00:24:15,436 --> 00:24:18,116
Speaker 3: And then after a while I didn't need to go

541
00:24:18,356 --> 00:24:20,276
Speaker 3: to present it to them. I could just hear the

542
00:24:20,396 --> 00:24:23,556
Speaker 3: voice in my head saying, don't bother finishing that. It's

543
00:24:23,556 --> 00:24:27,236
Speaker 3: not an international megasmash, you know, and I was like, yeah,

544
00:24:27,276 --> 00:24:29,956
Speaker 3: it's really rough. I sort of look back on that

545
00:24:29,996 --> 00:24:32,196
Speaker 3: time and feel really sorry for the me that was

546
00:24:32,276 --> 00:24:34,356
Speaker 3: that person, and I look at The Heart Speaks and

547
00:24:34,356 --> 00:24:36,516
Speaker 3: Whispers and think, well, I'm really glad. I'm glad that

548
00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:38,876
Speaker 3: I got as much done as I did, and I'm

549
00:24:38,876 --> 00:24:41,476
Speaker 3: glad that there are some good songs that record. But

550
00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:45,556
Speaker 3: it was really hard to work from an instinctive place.

551
00:24:45,636 --> 00:24:48,596
Speaker 3: Even though the record was about following your instincts, you know,

552
00:24:48,636 --> 00:24:51,596
Speaker 3: it's called The Heartspeaks and Whispers, but those whispers were

553
00:24:51,716 --> 00:24:54,516
Speaker 3: very easily sort of drowned out by other people and

554
00:24:54,556 --> 00:24:57,756
Speaker 3: by myself probably, you know. So with this record, I

555
00:24:57,836 --> 00:25:00,956
Speaker 3: knew I wasn't at a label. I didn't think it

556
00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:02,756
Speaker 3: would take as long as it did. But I am

557
00:25:02,836 --> 00:25:05,636
Speaker 3: just going to do something completely different to anything I've

558
00:25:05,636 --> 00:25:08,516
Speaker 3: done before, Like I'm not going to feel those pressures.

559
00:25:08,516 --> 00:25:10,036
Speaker 4: I'm not gonna think about radio.

560
00:25:10,156 --> 00:25:11,836
Speaker 3: I'm not going to think about what I've done before

561
00:25:11,836 --> 00:25:14,836
Speaker 3: because it's not even my name. And because of that,

562
00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:17,316
Speaker 3: there was just this torrent of creativity and not just

563
00:25:17,356 --> 00:25:22,036
Speaker 3: that because I was working within this archive. The labor

564
00:25:22,236 --> 00:25:25,596
Speaker 3: was like sitting reading a bunch of Ebony magazines, you know,

565
00:25:26,276 --> 00:25:29,716
Speaker 3: or like going to an amazing exhibition in New York's

566
00:25:29,716 --> 00:25:32,516
Speaker 3: All of a Nation, or going flying to Milan to

567
00:25:32,556 --> 00:25:35,876
Speaker 3: see Betty Sarr's retrospective, you know, at the Prada Foundation.

568
00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:36,156
Speaker 2: Yeah.

569
00:25:36,516 --> 00:25:38,116
Speaker 4: I didn't think of its work, and it wasn't work.

570
00:25:38,196 --> 00:25:41,716
Speaker 3: That was me just just sort of following my news.

571
00:25:42,036 --> 00:25:44,596
Speaker 3: But all of those rich things that are all fed

572
00:25:44,636 --> 00:25:47,356
Speaker 3: into the record. So it was really fun to do.

573
00:25:47,676 --> 00:25:49,996
Speaker 3: And the right way to do stuff, I guess, is

574
00:25:50,516 --> 00:25:53,516
Speaker 3: just to wait until you're really excited and then just let.

575
00:25:53,396 --> 00:25:54,396
Speaker 4: It fly out.

576
00:25:54,636 --> 00:25:56,556
Speaker 2: How did you end up in Chicago that first trip

577
00:25:56,556 --> 00:25:57,316
Speaker 2: where you visited.

578
00:25:57,796 --> 00:25:59,596
Speaker 4: I was on tour. I was on tour with the

579
00:25:59,676 --> 00:26:00,836
Speaker 4: Heart Speaks and Whispers.

580
00:26:00,996 --> 00:26:03,076
Speaker 3: So we had done you know, we had probably done

581
00:26:03,076 --> 00:26:06,116
Speaker 3: New York and done you know, Connecticut or somewhere, and

582
00:26:06,196 --> 00:26:07,556
Speaker 3: then we'd flown into Chicago.

583
00:26:08,196 --> 00:26:09,116
Speaker 4: And I remember saying to one.

584
00:26:09,156 --> 00:26:11,596
Speaker 3: Of my managers, I'm really annoyed because I really wanted

585
00:26:11,596 --> 00:26:14,476
Speaker 3: to meet this brilliant artist, the Asta Gates, and I

586
00:26:14,516 --> 00:26:16,436
Speaker 3: didn't tell you, and now he won't be able to

587
00:26:16,476 --> 00:26:19,556
Speaker 3: come to this show, like I was really fatalistic, and

588
00:26:19,596 --> 00:26:21,836
Speaker 3: she somehow managed to find him that day and he

589
00:26:21,916 --> 00:26:24,636
Speaker 3: did come to the show. I didn't know, and when

590
00:26:24,636 --> 00:26:26,476
Speaker 3: I was getting changed, she shouted me, She's like, don't

591
00:26:26,476 --> 00:26:29,756
Speaker 3: get change, come out someone to meet you. And I

592
00:26:29,796 --> 00:26:31,876
Speaker 3: was so excited to see him.

593
00:26:31,876 --> 00:26:32,996
Speaker 4: I didn't know he was going to be there.

594
00:26:32,996 --> 00:26:35,116
Speaker 3: I'd seen photos of him, so I knew it was him,

595
00:26:35,436 --> 00:26:37,396
Speaker 3: and I was just buzzing to talk to him and

596
00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:40,156
Speaker 3: be like, you know, you've saved this building from demolition,

597
00:26:40,236 --> 00:26:42,396
Speaker 3: that's what you do. That's part of your art practice.

598
00:26:42,716 --> 00:26:46,716
Speaker 3: And New Europe into ceramics, and I love ceramics. And

599
00:26:46,996 --> 00:26:50,516
Speaker 3: you know, he has this background in the Black Church

600
00:26:50,596 --> 00:26:52,476
Speaker 3: and he has this band called the Monks of Black

601
00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:55,596
Speaker 3: Monks at Mississippi, and so he's got this music part

602
00:26:55,636 --> 00:26:57,756
Speaker 3: of what he does as well. And he's lectures at

603
00:26:57,796 --> 00:27:01,276
Speaker 3: the university and he's super brainy, and so I just

604
00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:05,276
Speaker 3: was like really excited meet to meet another creative person.

605
00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:09,356
Speaker 3: And because it's art, you know, there's no rivalry. I mean,

606
00:27:09,356 --> 00:27:11,876
Speaker 3: there'd be no rivalry between the two of us. Yes,

607
00:27:11,916 --> 00:27:16,556
Speaker 3: there is literally internationally known, you know, artist whose works

608
00:27:16,716 --> 00:27:20,356
Speaker 3: sell for you know, millions, But it was really good

609
00:27:20,356 --> 00:27:23,516
Speaker 3: to just have a scene that you know, he had

610
00:27:23,596 --> 00:27:25,796
Speaker 3: nothing really to the music industry, and I of course

611
00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:27,916
Speaker 3: had nothing to the art world, and so it was

612
00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:30,036
Speaker 3: just kind of meet and getting to know each other

613
00:27:30,036 --> 00:27:30,676
Speaker 3: as friends.

614
00:27:31,036 --> 00:27:33,196
Speaker 1: That's so cool that it's like it all came together

615
00:27:33,276 --> 00:27:36,876
Speaker 1: that it inspired this sort of next like a rediscovery

616
00:27:36,876 --> 00:27:38,956
Speaker 1: of yourself too. While we're talking about the first record,

617
00:27:38,996 --> 00:27:41,356
Speaker 1: I really liked the first record. I think it's really good,

618
00:27:41,796 --> 00:27:45,116
Speaker 1: but it always seemed like I remember reading interviews from

619
00:27:45,116 --> 00:27:47,876
Speaker 1: me at the time that it seemed like your influences

620
00:27:47,916 --> 00:27:50,476
Speaker 1: were a bit deeper than that record conveyed, you know,

621
00:27:50,596 --> 00:27:52,716
Speaker 1: or more varied in that record conveyed. Not that and

622
00:27:52,756 --> 00:27:54,396
Speaker 1: it's a really great happen I mean, it's like a

623
00:27:54,476 --> 00:27:57,156
Speaker 1: really well done album, but it always did strike me

624
00:27:57,196 --> 00:27:59,236
Speaker 1: that it's like, oh, there's something else going on though,

625
00:27:59,276 --> 00:28:01,436
Speaker 1: and there's some undercurrents that aren't being expressed.

626
00:28:01,556 --> 00:28:01,756
Speaker 2: You know.

627
00:28:01,916 --> 00:28:04,196
Speaker 3: I'm really glad you could you could see that feel that,

628
00:28:04,236 --> 00:28:05,556
Speaker 3: and that's how I felt at the time.

629
00:28:05,956 --> 00:28:07,636
Speaker 4: It was a funny mixture of feeling.

630
00:28:08,316 --> 00:28:11,676
Speaker 3: I feel really scepted because people have taken this thing

631
00:28:11,756 --> 00:28:14,316
Speaker 3: that I made it my hometown, I played on my

632
00:28:14,356 --> 00:28:16,076
Speaker 3: guitar and I wrote and then here it is in

633
00:28:16,116 --> 00:28:20,156
Speaker 3: the world. But also it felt like I was somehow

634
00:28:20,796 --> 00:28:24,316
Speaker 3: keeping us part of myself secret or hiding a part

635
00:28:24,316 --> 00:28:27,756
Speaker 3: of myself. And maybe that is that that part, you know,

636
00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:31,276
Speaker 3: it's like the music that didn't necessarily come straight out

637
00:28:31,316 --> 00:28:34,676
Speaker 3: of black cultures, or the music that I'd grown up

638
00:28:34,676 --> 00:28:36,996
Speaker 3: listening to, you know, like the indie music. I mean,

639
00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:39,876
Speaker 3: I know black rock has a black origin as well,

640
00:28:39,916 --> 00:28:42,556
Speaker 3: but I didn't get to show the part of me

641
00:28:42,636 --> 00:28:45,996
Speaker 3: that loves electric guitar and loves indie music and this

642
00:28:46,356 --> 00:28:49,276
Speaker 3: complex simplicity of a band like Nirvana, you know, the

643
00:28:49,836 --> 00:28:53,276
Speaker 3: simple direct nature of that kind of music and or

644
00:28:53,876 --> 00:28:56,796
Speaker 3: weird you know, Buke or Triemus or you know those.

645
00:28:57,636 --> 00:28:59,796
Speaker 3: I felt like in the first record, I didn't get

646
00:28:59,836 --> 00:29:02,636
Speaker 3: to show the whole thing. I just felt like I've

647
00:29:02,676 --> 00:29:05,716
Speaker 3: got more and different things to say, and I you know,

648
00:29:05,796 --> 00:29:07,836
Speaker 3: I just want to keep feeling that that there's more

649
00:29:08,756 --> 00:29:11,236
Speaker 3: to say. Else why would you you know, why would

650
00:29:11,276 --> 00:29:12,116
Speaker 3: you bother saying it?

651
00:29:12,676 --> 00:29:13,036
Speaker 2: Yeah.

652
00:29:13,236 --> 00:29:14,796
Speaker 1: One thing that was cool about the first record that

653
00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:16,356
Speaker 1: stood out because it didn't feel like that was a

654
00:29:16,396 --> 00:29:18,516
Speaker 1: time when it was like there was a lot of

655
00:29:18,596 --> 00:29:22,556
Speaker 1: kind of milk toast acoustic music, not to I mean,

656
00:29:22,596 --> 00:29:25,516
Speaker 1: I don't want to name anyone, but your music felt

657
00:29:25,716 --> 00:29:27,676
Speaker 1: particularly a little deeper, and I think it because it

658
00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:29,956
Speaker 1: connected to you that I was thinking about it. Like

659
00:29:30,476 --> 00:29:32,516
Speaker 1: in the States, I guess we have Bill Withers, but

660
00:29:32,596 --> 00:29:36,956
Speaker 1: beyond Bill Withers, there wasn't a strong tradition of like

661
00:29:37,836 --> 00:29:41,876
Speaker 1: the soulful singer songwriter, even though there was great songwriters

662
00:29:41,876 --> 00:29:47,796
Speaker 1: in soul music, whereas in the UK Linda Lewis or Labysiffari, like,

663
00:29:47,836 --> 00:29:52,716
Speaker 1: there's these people who could like play guitar acoustically and

664
00:29:52,836 --> 00:29:55,316
Speaker 1: make records that were essentially soul records. And it kind

665
00:29:55,316 --> 00:29:57,956
Speaker 1: of felt like that was similar to what you were doing,

666
00:29:57,956 --> 00:30:00,036
Speaker 1: and that kind of resonated with me. At least, you know,

667
00:30:00,196 --> 00:30:04,356
Speaker 1: there's like this really great songwriting that it's soulful, but

668
00:30:04,396 --> 00:30:07,356
Speaker 1: it's just presented in this way that is unique at

669
00:30:07,396 --> 00:30:08,716
Speaker 1: least I think feel like in the States, you know,

670
00:30:09,276 --> 00:30:10,756
Speaker 1: someone puts the guitar out.

671
00:30:10,636 --> 00:30:12,996
Speaker 2: Here, it gets immediately it's a little saccering, you know.

672
00:30:13,516 --> 00:30:15,756
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I'm so glad you said that.

673
00:30:15,796 --> 00:30:17,996
Speaker 3: And I mean Bill Withers is i mean, obviously a

674
00:30:18,036 --> 00:30:21,236
Speaker 3: god in everyone's world, but he is, you know, right

675
00:30:21,276 --> 00:30:24,276
Speaker 3: at the top of the tree. And I've watched that documentary.

676
00:30:24,316 --> 00:30:25,596
Speaker 3: I don't know if you saw it a few years ago.

677
00:30:25,596 --> 00:30:26,996
Speaker 3: It came out still Bill.

678
00:30:26,876 --> 00:30:28,716
Speaker 2: You know, it was that's one of my favorites.

679
00:30:29,076 --> 00:30:30,796
Speaker 4: It's such that's such a good album.

680
00:30:30,836 --> 00:30:33,436
Speaker 3: But you know the documentary that came out when he

681
00:30:33,516 --> 00:30:35,716
Speaker 3: was still alive, and he was talking about this period

682
00:30:35,796 --> 00:30:39,356
Speaker 3: of his life where people were saying kind of trying

683
00:30:39,436 --> 00:30:42,316
Speaker 3: to convince him to change his style. You know, he

684
00:30:42,356 --> 00:30:44,196
Speaker 3: said there was people at the record label and he

685
00:30:44,236 --> 00:30:47,516
Speaker 3: called them the black Spurts, and he'd say like, you know,

686
00:30:47,876 --> 00:30:49,716
Speaker 3: he's like, you need to get above that stool and

687
00:30:49,756 --> 00:30:52,116
Speaker 3: you need to get two dancers and the gold Lammy

688
00:30:52,236 --> 00:30:54,916
Speaker 3: shirt and just start. You know, maybe disco was coming

689
00:30:54,916 --> 00:31:01,156
Speaker 3: in and his kind of homely, folksy, you know style. Yeah,

690
00:31:01,476 --> 00:31:04,756
Speaker 3: it just it was somehow not seen as commercial enough.

691
00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:07,236
Speaker 3: But also there was an undertone to like, it's not

692
00:31:07,396 --> 00:31:08,836
Speaker 3: black enough, it's not black.

693
00:31:09,236 --> 00:31:15,036
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's always what struck me about being black in

694
00:31:15,076 --> 00:31:15,356
Speaker 1: the UK.

695
00:31:15,476 --> 00:31:15,916
Speaker 2: From Afar.

696
00:31:15,996 --> 00:31:18,916
Speaker 1: I've only been to London once, but from Afar it's

697
00:31:18,916 --> 00:31:21,636
Speaker 1: always seemed as if y'all had a little more freedom

698
00:31:21,756 --> 00:31:26,996
Speaker 1: over there to express layers of yourself, you know, whereas

699
00:31:27,196 --> 00:31:29,836
Speaker 1: here what's black is very you know, put on the

700
00:31:30,516 --> 00:31:32,756
Speaker 1: the whatever, the l and you.

701
00:31:32,716 --> 00:31:38,476
Speaker 3: Know, so interesting with African American culture because obviously black music,

702
00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:43,276
Speaker 3: Black American music is kind of like the the pinnacle

703
00:31:43,516 --> 00:31:47,796
Speaker 3: to me of like creative arts. Partly it comes out

704
00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:51,516
Speaker 3: of that segregation and separatism, So I know what you mean.

705
00:31:51,596 --> 00:31:52,516
Speaker 4: It's like it's a.

706
00:31:52,596 --> 00:31:57,556
Speaker 3: Very specific blackness, which is very specifically not whiteness. And

707
00:31:57,636 --> 00:32:02,236
Speaker 3: in the UK it's more messy and hybrid because we

708
00:32:02,316 --> 00:32:07,796
Speaker 3: didn't have legalized segregation. You know, you had the black

709
00:32:07,916 --> 00:32:11,876
Speaker 3: African people working plantations, but they were in the Caribbean

710
00:32:12,476 --> 00:32:14,876
Speaker 3: and that was separate from England, even though they were

711
00:32:14,876 --> 00:32:16,436
Speaker 3: owned by English.

712
00:32:16,276 --> 00:32:18,796
Speaker 4: White people Scottish and culture.

713
00:32:19,116 --> 00:32:22,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, but then when the Caribbeans came, they, I guess

714
00:32:22,996 --> 00:32:25,636
Speaker 3: had already been in a hybrid culture where they were

715
00:32:26,596 --> 00:32:29,756
Speaker 3: black majority islands, but there were lots of white people there,

716
00:32:29,956 --> 00:32:33,236
Speaker 3: and you know, they're influencing each other and then sort

717
00:32:33,236 --> 00:32:36,556
Speaker 3: of coming in but also being influenced by American imports,

718
00:32:36,596 --> 00:32:38,796
Speaker 3: you know, vinyl imports, and you know, think of like

719
00:32:38,796 --> 00:32:41,556
Speaker 3: a Bob Marley and how much he's obviously into Curtis

720
00:32:41,596 --> 00:32:43,316
Speaker 3: Mayfield and all those harmonies.

721
00:32:43,716 --> 00:32:44,996
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, but he's st.

722
00:32:44,956 --> 00:32:46,956
Speaker 4: Also doing his own thing with it.

723
00:32:47,716 --> 00:32:52,396
Speaker 3: So I always think like Caribbean music's sort of hybridized anyway,

724
00:32:52,436 --> 00:32:54,956
Speaker 3: and then then you get this thing in blackness where

725
00:32:56,636 --> 00:32:59,316
Speaker 3: the people are black, Like, you know, my dad's family

726
00:32:59,396 --> 00:33:01,836
Speaker 3: came from the Caribbean, but they also thought of themselves

727
00:33:01,876 --> 00:33:06,356
Speaker 3: as British because the Caribbeans were they were a British colony,

728
00:33:06,876 --> 00:33:09,076
Speaker 3: so they already had their British passport. So it's really

729
00:33:09,396 --> 00:33:12,556
Speaker 3: it's a different it's a really different scene Black Britishness.

730
00:33:12,556 --> 00:33:15,516
Speaker 4: But I know what you mean. I think it's less defined.

731
00:33:15,756 --> 00:33:18,596
Speaker 4: It's less strengthened.

732
00:33:17,916 --> 00:33:22,396
Speaker 3: By institutions and the Black universities and the NAACP and

733
00:33:22,436 --> 00:33:25,956
Speaker 3: the Black Church, and they're all the things that make

734
00:33:26,076 --> 00:33:30,156
Speaker 3: Black American music so great. But I also think the

735
00:33:30,356 --> 00:33:34,316
Speaker 3: sort of the hybrid messy thing of the UK means

736
00:33:35,036 --> 00:33:38,636
Speaker 3: that I feel like people feel blackness is less defined.

737
00:33:38,876 --> 00:33:42,356
Speaker 3: It's not like someone's drawn a chuck circle around you

738
00:33:42,396 --> 00:33:44,556
Speaker 3: and if you step out of it, you're not authentic

739
00:33:44,876 --> 00:33:47,836
Speaker 3: or you know, your blackness is in question. And then

740
00:33:47,876 --> 00:33:50,396
Speaker 3: of course mine's further complicated because my mum is white,

741
00:33:50,476 --> 00:33:53,316
Speaker 3: My dad's black, so it's like it's that as well.

742
00:33:53,356 --> 00:33:56,476
Speaker 3: So I always used to, you know, be playing and think,

743
00:33:56,876 --> 00:33:57,956
Speaker 3: is this Do.

744
00:33:57,996 --> 00:34:01,036
Speaker 4: I like this because I am not black?

745
00:34:01,156 --> 00:34:03,596
Speaker 3: Do I like this because I'm And then I would

746
00:34:03,596 --> 00:34:07,196
Speaker 3: find loads of my black friends would also be feeling

747
00:34:07,356 --> 00:34:10,596
Speaker 3: or being accused of not being black enough, you know,

748
00:34:10,716 --> 00:34:12,556
Speaker 3: so you realize that it's a construct.

749
00:34:12,556 --> 00:34:14,676
Speaker 4: And then you know, even to this.

750
00:34:14,636 --> 00:34:17,236
Speaker 3: Day, you know, black girlfriends will be like, I'm going

751
00:34:17,276 --> 00:34:19,636
Speaker 3: to the carnival West Indian Carnivals, so like I need

752
00:34:19,756 --> 00:34:22,516
Speaker 3: these kind of earrings and this kind of clothes to

753
00:34:22,636 --> 00:34:27,916
Speaker 3: almost present as black. So it's that thing has really

754
00:34:27,916 --> 00:34:30,476
Speaker 3: done a number on all of us where we we

755
00:34:30,796 --> 00:34:36,916
Speaker 3: limit ourselves because we think that there's a certain expectation

756
00:34:36,996 --> 00:34:38,916
Speaker 3: of blackness. And that was another reason why the record's

757
00:34:38,956 --> 00:34:41,596
Speaker 3: called Black Rainbows, because I really wanted to push out

758
00:34:41,676 --> 00:34:45,156
Speaker 3: to say like, oh yeah, this is a punk track,

759
00:34:45,276 --> 00:34:47,796
Speaker 3: but you know, I'm wearing a Bad Brains T shirt

760
00:34:47,796 --> 00:34:49,956
Speaker 3: in the video because of Bad Brains is this amazing

761
00:34:50,076 --> 00:34:54,036
Speaker 3: black punk band. And you know this, this dissenting music

762
00:34:54,996 --> 00:34:59,396
Speaker 3: has also has a black thread and black origins, and

763
00:34:59,436 --> 00:35:02,796
Speaker 3: they've been kind of written out, not Bad Brains specifically,

764
00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:07,596
Speaker 3: but those those black and scar kind of origins of punk,

765
00:35:08,156 --> 00:35:09,956
Speaker 3: sometimes not acting knowledge, you know.

766
00:35:10,396 --> 00:35:13,236
Speaker 1: Well, you know, recently, a Bob Seger song came on

767
00:35:13,236 --> 00:35:14,836
Speaker 1: the radio for me and I was like, oh fuck.

768
00:35:14,876 --> 00:35:16,676
Speaker 1: I was like, no one, I just never listened to

769
00:35:16,676 --> 00:35:18,796
Speaker 1: Bob Siegret, Like something from one of his first records

770
00:35:18,876 --> 00:35:19,956
Speaker 1: came on. I was like, damn, why did no one

771
00:35:19,996 --> 00:35:22,556
Speaker 1: tell me how great this is? So I started listening,

772
00:35:22,596 --> 00:35:24,596
Speaker 1: and I kind of got a little obsessed with like

773
00:35:24,716 --> 00:35:27,196
Speaker 1: hard rock music or like the begin the origins of

774
00:35:27,236 --> 00:35:30,476
Speaker 1: hard rock, like you know, late sixties through the seventies,

775
00:35:31,116 --> 00:35:32,876
Speaker 1: And so I started making like a playlist, like kind

776
00:35:32,876 --> 00:35:35,556
Speaker 1: of like what was the stuff that made hard rock

777
00:35:35,596 --> 00:35:37,636
Speaker 1: hard rock? And what I realized was listening is a

778
00:35:37,636 --> 00:35:40,076
Speaker 1: lot of it came from Well, there's a lot that

779
00:35:40,116 --> 00:35:40,836
Speaker 1: came from London.

780
00:35:40,876 --> 00:35:42,636
Speaker 2: There's a lot that came from Detroit.

781
00:35:42,796 --> 00:35:43,356
Speaker 4: Yeah, and a.

782
00:35:43,276 --> 00:35:44,796
Speaker 1: Lot that came from la but a lot of it

783
00:35:44,836 --> 00:35:46,676
Speaker 1: was out of Detroit, and a lot of it was

784
00:35:47,556 --> 00:35:50,276
Speaker 1: white guys trying to be soulful, trying.

785
00:35:50,036 --> 00:35:50,636
Speaker 3: To do R and B.

786
00:35:51,076 --> 00:35:51,396
Speaker 4: Yeah.

787
00:35:51,636 --> 00:35:54,076
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean you could say that's the start of

788
00:35:54,116 --> 00:35:56,156
Speaker 3: the Beatles, right, It's fascinating.

789
00:35:56,716 --> 00:35:57,996
Speaker 4: Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

790
00:35:58,036 --> 00:35:59,716
Speaker 3: And there was a big scene in the UK, kind

791
00:35:59,716 --> 00:36:03,196
Speaker 3: of northern soul scene, which was definitely you know, young

792
00:36:03,236 --> 00:36:08,076
Speaker 3: white bands hearing American imports and wanting to you know,

793
00:36:08,236 --> 00:36:11,156
Speaker 3: do them or you think of you know, sort of

794
00:36:11,156 --> 00:36:14,276
Speaker 3: Patty Smith, you know, singing quoting a Motown song or

795
00:36:14,356 --> 00:36:16,956
Speaker 3: you know Tainted Love, you know, being.

796
00:36:16,756 --> 00:36:18,076
Speaker 4: Readne by Mark Harmon.

797
00:36:18,476 --> 00:36:20,996
Speaker 3: There was there was many incidents and as we were

798
00:36:20,996 --> 00:36:23,796
Speaker 3: saying earlier, you know the Beetles ourselves picking all these

799
00:36:23,836 --> 00:36:30,116
Speaker 3: like little Richard songs to cover and it's like yeah, yeah, exactly,

800
00:36:30,476 --> 00:36:32,436
Speaker 3: yeah yeah, and they all really.

801
00:36:32,236 --> 00:36:34,636
Speaker 4: Acknowledged, you know, oh we love Muddy Waters.

802
00:36:34,636 --> 00:36:38,116
Speaker 3: But you know, at the time, the irony of it

803
00:36:38,196 --> 00:36:43,996
Speaker 3: was that it kind of took white English young kids

804
00:36:44,236 --> 00:36:47,196
Speaker 3: appreciating black R and B to kind of sell it.

805
00:36:47,276 --> 00:36:50,356
Speaker 4: Black white America. You know. They took it as it's

806
00:36:50,356 --> 00:36:52,236
Speaker 4: the Britis, it's the British invasion.

807
00:36:52,476 --> 00:36:55,116
Speaker 3: It's as like you guys should just change the radio

808
00:36:55,196 --> 00:36:59,996
Speaker 3: channel occasionally, twist and show. You know, it's like listen

809
00:36:59,996 --> 00:37:02,396
Speaker 3: to the Ising Brothers that listened to Chuck Burial, isn't it,

810
00:37:02,436 --> 00:37:06,036
Speaker 3: you know, But for some reason it filtered through that

811
00:37:06,556 --> 00:37:11,116
Speaker 3: connected with them for all the different complications to reasons

812
00:37:11,156 --> 00:37:13,476
Speaker 3: right to be that way. Yeah, But I mean that

813
00:37:13,516 --> 00:37:16,356
Speaker 3: relationship between the bouncing back and forth between some of

814
00:37:16,356 --> 00:37:19,196
Speaker 3: the UK and the US is something that I'm really

815
00:37:19,316 --> 00:37:23,116
Speaker 3: you know into and following those threads, you know.

816
00:37:23,116 --> 00:37:24,356
Speaker 4: I love the music history.

817
00:37:24,716 --> 00:37:27,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's fascinating into your point about like those

818
00:37:27,436 --> 00:37:30,276
Speaker 1: blues and soul imports that like kind of would find

819
00:37:30,276 --> 00:37:32,956
Speaker 1: a home in the UK, that there was really not

820
00:37:33,036 --> 00:37:35,276
Speaker 1: much of a home for them in the US. That's

821
00:37:35,316 --> 00:37:38,316
Speaker 1: another thing about the UK that I've always envied from

822
00:37:38,316 --> 00:37:40,196
Speaker 1: afar as it's like it's always in a place for

823
00:37:40,236 --> 00:37:43,196
Speaker 1: black people to go to feel except you know, the

824
00:37:43,196 --> 00:37:45,956
Speaker 1: classic stories like Hendrick's going there, or just other various

825
00:37:45,956 --> 00:37:48,796
Speaker 1: places in Europe where you know, jazz musicians are just

826
00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:50,836
Speaker 1: going because it's like or Tina Turner just moving to

827
00:37:50,916 --> 00:37:53,556
Speaker 1: Sweden because it's like this is way better, you know, yeah,

828
00:37:53,636 --> 00:37:55,316
Speaker 1: or Switzerland or Sweden were one of those.

829
00:37:55,396 --> 00:37:59,596
Speaker 3: Yeah, just people escaping the particular type of American racism,

830
00:37:59,676 --> 00:38:03,556
Speaker 3: which one that comes out of that long standing segregation

831
00:38:03,796 --> 00:38:08,756
Speaker 3: and just the amount of brainwashing around you know, we

832
00:38:08,796 --> 00:38:12,636
Speaker 3: are different, inherently different people's you know, all of that

833
00:38:13,036 --> 00:38:16,276
Speaker 3: racial constructs that's so powerful in America. I think it

834
00:38:16,356 --> 00:38:19,476
Speaker 3: is nice for but people to come to Europe. I'm

835
00:38:19,476 --> 00:38:22,116
Speaker 3: not saying it's not a land without racing, but it's different,

836
00:38:22,276 --> 00:38:25,996
Speaker 3: different flavor. But even just the difference really makes you

837
00:38:26,036 --> 00:38:29,916
Speaker 3: realize how subjective and constructed the whole thing is.

838
00:38:30,476 --> 00:38:33,476
Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to take one last quick break and

839
00:38:33,516 --> 00:38:36,356
Speaker 1: then come back with more from a conversation with Karinn

840
00:38:36,356 --> 00:38:42,356
Speaker 1: Bailey Ray. We're back with the rest of my conversation

841
00:38:42,596 --> 00:38:47,356
Speaker 1: with Karinn Bailey Ray. Let's talk about Peach Velvet Sky. Yeah,

842
00:38:47,796 --> 00:38:49,836
Speaker 1: you used to work in the jazz club, correct.

843
00:38:49,756 --> 00:38:51,756
Speaker 4: Yes, I used to work in the jazz club. So

844
00:38:51,956 --> 00:38:53,956
Speaker 4: when I was at university, I worked in this jazz.

845
00:38:53,756 --> 00:38:55,956
Speaker 3: And soul club called the Underground. And first I was

846
00:38:55,956 --> 00:38:58,436
Speaker 3: collecting the coats to hang up, and then I was

847
00:38:58,476 --> 00:39:00,636
Speaker 3: working behind the bar, which was the really good job

848
00:39:00,636 --> 00:39:03,916
Speaker 3: because the bar was opposite the stage, so as you

849
00:39:03,956 --> 00:39:06,916
Speaker 3: were working, you could just be watching all these incredible

850
00:39:06,996 --> 00:39:10,396
Speaker 3: jazz musicians come through and and brilliant bands, you know,

851
00:39:10,436 --> 00:39:14,196
Speaker 3: remember Royers playing there on time or like cast Latina

852
00:39:14,236 --> 00:39:16,436
Speaker 3: All Stars, you know, like lots of like they would

853
00:39:16,436 --> 00:39:20,076
Speaker 3: always get Cuba musicians and Terry Callier. You know, you

854
00:39:20,076 --> 00:39:22,076
Speaker 3: could just kind of watch and learn as well as

855
00:39:22,116 --> 00:39:23,796
Speaker 3: lots of you know, people from there.

856
00:39:24,436 --> 00:39:28,596
Speaker 1: There's another beautiful, yes, soulful, yeah, singer songwriter, just I

857
00:39:28,596 --> 00:39:29,956
Speaker 1: got it out of control.

858
00:39:29,756 --> 00:39:33,556
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, Terry Callier, Yeah, yeah, so beautiful, and

859
00:39:33,556 --> 00:39:36,596
Speaker 3: that's sensitivity. I think of John Lucian as well, you know.

860
00:39:37,596 --> 00:39:40,076
Speaker 3: But Peach Felt the Sky I had written because I

861
00:39:40,116 --> 00:39:43,436
Speaker 3: saw lots of copies of this one book in the

862
00:39:43,756 --> 00:39:45,516
Speaker 3: Arts bank, and it was a book that I had

863
00:39:45,516 --> 00:39:47,876
Speaker 3: read as a teenager, as a book that been sent

864
00:39:47,916 --> 00:39:49,836
Speaker 3: to me by my American aunts.

865
00:39:50,676 --> 00:39:52,676
Speaker 4: My dad's got four sisters.

866
00:39:52,716 --> 00:39:55,836
Speaker 3: Everybody came here from Saint Kitts, and then two of

867
00:39:55,876 --> 00:39:58,236
Speaker 3: them moved to New Jersey when they were in their

868
00:39:58,276 --> 00:40:00,836
Speaker 3: early twenties, and so they were my American aunts, and

869
00:40:00,836 --> 00:40:04,636
Speaker 3: they would send me, you know, books or stuff, clotheschool

870
00:40:04,676 --> 00:40:06,396
Speaker 3: aid sometimes.

871
00:40:06,196 --> 00:40:07,396
Speaker 4: Or like Barett's from my hair.

872
00:40:08,756 --> 00:40:11,596
Speaker 3: But they my aunt Joyce sent me this book and

873
00:40:11,636 --> 00:40:13,476
Speaker 3: it was called Incidents in the Life of a Slave

874
00:40:13,556 --> 00:40:17,596
Speaker 3: Girl as part of a six six Narratives early African

875
00:40:17,636 --> 00:40:18,596
Speaker 3: American narratives.

876
00:40:19,436 --> 00:40:21,876
Speaker 4: And I read it and I was just so struck.

877
00:40:21,556 --> 00:40:24,516
Speaker 3: By this woman's story that she had grown up on

878
00:40:24,556 --> 00:40:28,196
Speaker 3: this plantation in eighteen thirteen. You know, she grew up

879
00:40:28,276 --> 00:40:30,676
Speaker 3: under the authority of her parents, and then as she

880
00:40:30,716 --> 00:40:32,836
Speaker 3: got a little bit older, she realized she was in

881
00:40:32,876 --> 00:40:36,076
Speaker 3: this institution, you know, from which there was no escape.

882
00:40:36,236 --> 00:40:39,196
Speaker 3: There was an authority above her parents that she couldn't

883
00:40:39,676 --> 00:40:43,676
Speaker 3: you know, violate at all. And then later on in

884
00:40:43,716 --> 00:40:46,596
Speaker 3: her life, the ownership of her change so that she

885
00:40:46,676 --> 00:40:51,036
Speaker 3: had this master, this new master, who was also the

886
00:40:51,076 --> 00:40:55,956
Speaker 3: local doctor. But he developed this obsession with her, and

887
00:40:55,996 --> 00:40:58,796
Speaker 3: he believed himself to be in love with her, so

888
00:40:58,836 --> 00:41:02,036
Speaker 3: he would be always trying to pursue her and you know,

889
00:41:02,356 --> 00:41:08,116
Speaker 3: sort of sexually aggress her. And Harriet Jacobs ended up

890
00:41:08,156 --> 00:41:13,756
Speaker 3: having two childs children in her teens, with a local man,

891
00:41:13,836 --> 00:41:17,476
Speaker 3: a white man who her grandmother had put her in

892
00:41:17,516 --> 00:41:19,356
Speaker 3: touch with to see if he could help her. And

893
00:41:19,396 --> 00:41:22,876
Speaker 3: he obviously, however, I don't know the exact situation of

894
00:41:22,916 --> 00:41:26,076
Speaker 3: their relationship, and even how she writes it, it seems

895
00:41:26,076 --> 00:41:28,876
Speaker 3: as though this is a you know, a love relationship.

896
00:41:29,556 --> 00:41:33,356
Speaker 3: But they have two children together, and this incenses this

897
00:41:33,476 --> 00:41:37,156
Speaker 3: doctor even more, you know, this master, and he he's violent.

898
00:41:37,156 --> 00:41:39,036
Speaker 3: At one point, he's very violent with one of the children.

899
00:41:39,116 --> 00:41:40,956
Speaker 3: He throws the boy against the wall and he's in

900
00:41:41,076 --> 00:41:43,356
Speaker 3: a coma for days, and she realizes she has to

901
00:41:43,356 --> 00:41:44,876
Speaker 3: get away, and she realizes shees she has to get

902
00:41:44,876 --> 00:41:48,796
Speaker 3: her children away. So she makes it seem as though

903
00:41:48,836 --> 00:41:52,156
Speaker 3: she's fled to the north, but in fact, she's hiding

904
00:41:52,196 --> 00:41:56,436
Speaker 3: out in the crawl space above her three grandmother's storehouse

905
00:41:56,516 --> 00:41:59,796
Speaker 3: on the plantation. You know, it's not big enough to

906
00:41:59,836 --> 00:42:01,836
Speaker 3: stand up in, but she can crawl, and you know,

907
00:42:01,876 --> 00:42:03,076
Speaker 3: her grandmother can let her out.

908
00:42:02,996 --> 00:42:05,476
Speaker 4: To the store, has to move around. Obviously, she's feeding her.

909
00:42:05,796 --> 00:42:08,916
Speaker 3: And she waits until the coast is clear, and she

910
00:42:09,476 --> 00:42:13,636
Speaker 3: until he's expended a lot of effort and money and

911
00:42:13,716 --> 00:42:16,116
Speaker 3: time looking for him. Enough so she stays in this

912
00:42:16,196 --> 00:42:20,236
Speaker 3: crawl space for seven years. And while she's there, she

913
00:42:20,316 --> 00:42:22,036
Speaker 3: bores this hole in the side of the buildings, a

914
00:42:22,036 --> 00:42:25,556
Speaker 3: wooden building, like this tiny hole, so that people can't

915
00:42:25,556 --> 00:42:27,716
Speaker 3: see him, but she can see out. So she can

916
00:42:27,756 --> 00:42:30,996
Speaker 3: look out and see see her children playing because her

917
00:42:30,996 --> 00:42:34,356
Speaker 3: grandmother brings her children nearby, or she can hear you know,

918
00:42:34,476 --> 00:42:37,596
Speaker 3: passing comments, you know, things that might be pertaining to

919
00:42:37,636 --> 00:42:41,076
Speaker 3: her freedom. You know, she's got enough light to sew

920
00:42:41,156 --> 00:42:44,276
Speaker 3: buy And I just when I saw it in the autsbag,

921
00:42:44,356 --> 00:42:46,476
Speaker 3: I reread it because I thought, what's this like now

922
00:42:46,476 --> 00:42:48,316
Speaker 3: to read as an adult, to read as a woman,

923
00:42:48,396 --> 00:42:52,116
Speaker 3: to read as a mother, And it was just, you know,

924
00:42:52,476 --> 00:42:56,796
Speaker 3: it's so much a story of waiting and patience and resilience,

925
00:42:56,836 --> 00:43:00,116
Speaker 3: and just think of someone's mental fortitude to be able

926
00:43:00,156 --> 00:43:04,356
Speaker 3: to make a prison for yourself in effect, so that

927
00:43:04,436 --> 00:43:08,476
Speaker 3: when you do eventually escape, you're safe and you can.

928
00:43:08,676 --> 00:43:10,996
Speaker 3: You know, she send for her children, and she does.

929
00:43:11,036 --> 00:43:13,036
Speaker 3: She ends up setting up a school with her daughter

930
00:43:13,156 --> 00:43:18,156
Speaker 3: for children leaving slavery in eighteen sixty five. And I

931
00:43:18,396 --> 00:43:20,556
Speaker 3: was really drawn to this story. In one time, I

932
00:43:20,596 --> 00:43:23,716
Speaker 3: was trying to get to sleep and I thought about

933
00:43:24,436 --> 00:43:27,836
Speaker 3: this loophole that Harriet Jacobs had. You know what the

934
00:43:27,836 --> 00:43:31,836
Speaker 3: sky looked like from her loophole, You know what the sunset.

935
00:43:31,356 --> 00:43:34,596
Speaker 4: Looked like, and how wide and vast it seems when

936
00:43:34,636 --> 00:43:36,396
Speaker 4: she eventually found her freedom.

937
00:43:36,796 --> 00:43:39,836
Speaker 2: Wow, it's beautiful. And the chords on the song are beautiful.

938
00:43:39,876 --> 00:43:42,316
Speaker 1: I don't know how it developed into like that sort

939
00:43:42,356 --> 00:43:45,916
Speaker 1: of what kind of rapturous, gorgeous song that it became,

940
00:43:45,956 --> 00:43:48,796
Speaker 1: but it's like all the elements of that are just beautiful,

941
00:43:48,796 --> 00:43:52,756
Speaker 1: and that it's sort of in terms of production value,

942
00:43:52,796 --> 00:43:54,916
Speaker 1: the least sort of adventurous, but it's but it's like

943
00:43:54,996 --> 00:43:57,836
Speaker 1: all the musically, it's it's all there. But it fits

944
00:43:57,836 --> 00:43:59,636
Speaker 1: in between these two songs that are just sort of

945
00:44:00,036 --> 00:44:02,196
Speaker 1: you're like, how does it fit? That's the whole kind

946
00:44:02,236 --> 00:44:03,676
Speaker 1: of thing about this record to me, it's like, how

947
00:44:03,716 --> 00:44:04,716
Speaker 1: the fuck does this song?

948
00:44:05,156 --> 00:44:06,516
Speaker 2: This song? But it's beautiful.

949
00:44:06,516 --> 00:44:09,756
Speaker 3: It's always make the track older, like it's so one

950
00:44:09,796 --> 00:44:11,316
Speaker 3: thing would be a palette cleanse for the other.

951
00:44:11,436 --> 00:44:15,756
Speaker 4: So just when it was sort of too you know, overwhelming.

952
00:44:15,156 --> 00:44:17,396
Speaker 3: Then I do something beautiful and then but then I

953
00:44:17,436 --> 00:44:19,556
Speaker 3: want to do something you know, I just wanted.

954
00:44:19,316 --> 00:44:22,996
Speaker 4: To keep I don't know, just keep changing the mood,

955
00:44:23,076 --> 00:44:23,516
Speaker 4: I guess.

956
00:44:24,076 --> 00:44:26,236
Speaker 3: But yeah, with Peach Veelmetsky, I wrote that on guitar,

957
00:44:26,276 --> 00:44:28,676
Speaker 3: but it was much more of a simple, you know.

958
00:44:28,716 --> 00:44:29,396
Speaker 4: Folk song.

959
00:44:29,676 --> 00:44:32,516
Speaker 3: And then when I worked with Steve Brown, who worked

960
00:44:32,636 --> 00:44:35,396
Speaker 3: for a long time him also married to he has

961
00:44:35,436 --> 00:44:38,436
Speaker 3: a really really good ear and he's he's a jazz musician,

962
00:44:38,476 --> 00:44:42,636
Speaker 3: so I guess the song kind of developed this extra

963
00:44:42,916 --> 00:44:47,036
Speaker 3: rich nurse and the more much more complex harmony because

964
00:44:47,036 --> 00:44:49,036
Speaker 3: of what he was sort of putting in, And so

965
00:44:49,076 --> 00:44:50,956
Speaker 3: we would just rehearse it together and I'd say, come on,

966
00:44:50,996 --> 00:44:52,556
Speaker 3: and needs record it, and he say, it's not you know,

967
00:44:52,596 --> 00:44:54,756
Speaker 3: we haven't got it yet. We don't want to record

968
00:44:54,796 --> 00:44:57,156
Speaker 3: it until it's like we're doing it on stage, and

969
00:44:57,156 --> 00:44:59,556
Speaker 3: that's how we ended up doing it. So it felt

970
00:44:59,636 --> 00:45:01,636
Speaker 3: risky to me because I normally like to sort of

971
00:45:01,636 --> 00:45:03,836
Speaker 3: track things as you go along and then almost say

972
00:45:03,916 --> 00:45:06,996
Speaker 3: well this, you know, it worked and it's down now.

973
00:45:07,396 --> 00:45:10,076
Speaker 4: So we were just putting lots of rehearsals that I can.

974
00:45:10,276 --> 00:45:12,516
Speaker 1: I'm glad you did because your vocal performance and that

975
00:45:12,676 --> 00:45:17,276
Speaker 1: is phenomenal. It's like, really, god, damn you know, I mean,

976
00:45:17,276 --> 00:45:18,636
Speaker 1: that's a tough vocal performances.

977
00:45:18,796 --> 00:45:20,076
Speaker 2: Thank you you really, Nail.

978
00:45:20,476 --> 00:45:22,756
Speaker 3: I really feel with these stories there's so much bigger

979
00:45:22,756 --> 00:45:25,276
Speaker 3: than my own personal story. You know, when you think

980
00:45:25,316 --> 00:45:28,876
Speaker 3: of Harriet Jacob and surviving this this sexual aggression, and

981
00:45:28,916 --> 00:45:32,836
Speaker 3: then you know her parents die and she's a slave girl,

982
00:45:33,796 --> 00:45:37,396
Speaker 3: and then she's a teenage parent to this man who

983
00:45:37,756 --> 00:45:40,836
Speaker 3: he says he's gonna free her children, but he hasn't,

984
00:45:40,996 --> 00:45:42,956
Speaker 3: he hasn't done it yet, and he goes on to

985
00:45:43,036 --> 00:45:45,876
Speaker 3: be his prominent politician, and then and then she she's

986
00:45:45,916 --> 00:45:48,236
Speaker 3: constantly got this man. And then how to how to

987
00:45:48,396 --> 00:45:50,436
Speaker 3: escape it and thinking of doing it, and then there's

988
00:45:50,556 --> 00:45:53,836
Speaker 3: that's seven years. I can't get round that sort of

989
00:45:54,996 --> 00:45:57,116
Speaker 3: you know, she could just scream out in the middle

990
00:45:57,156 --> 00:46:00,076
Speaker 3: of the night and it would completely blow a cover.

991
00:46:00,156 --> 00:46:03,356
Speaker 3: It's like, how does she hold on and hold back

992
00:46:03,556 --> 00:46:08,676
Speaker 3: and kind of slow herself down for that amount of time,

993
00:46:08,716 --> 00:46:11,236
Speaker 3: but then gett into this very active you know, getting

994
00:46:11,236 --> 00:46:12,356
Speaker 3: on a boat going north.

995
00:46:12,916 --> 00:46:15,356
Speaker 4: I just think of what's kind of gone on in

996
00:46:15,356 --> 00:46:15,836
Speaker 4: her mind.

997
00:46:15,956 --> 00:46:19,396
Speaker 3: You know, she's so to me, the thing of mental

998
00:46:19,436 --> 00:46:21,236
Speaker 3: health was I was really sort of thinking of in

999
00:46:21,276 --> 00:46:23,396
Speaker 3: the song, and you know, are they only points where

1000
00:46:23,436 --> 00:46:24,716
Speaker 3: she just becomes.

1001
00:46:24,396 --> 00:46:27,876
Speaker 4: Sort of maddened? And it's slightly cracked by just that.

1002
00:46:28,276 --> 00:46:30,836
Speaker 3: You know, eventually while she's in there, they try and

1003
00:46:30,836 --> 00:46:32,716
Speaker 3: get home by putting her children in prison.

1004
00:46:33,356 --> 00:46:35,396
Speaker 4: You know, your mother's so unfeeling.

1005
00:46:35,476 --> 00:46:37,236
Speaker 3: How can she not come from the north when she

1006
00:46:37,276 --> 00:46:41,436
Speaker 3: knows you're in prison and she just is holding this line.

1007
00:46:41,436 --> 00:46:44,756
Speaker 3: It's this huge gamble that she takes. And I'm really

1008
00:46:44,756 --> 00:46:47,316
Speaker 3: fascinated by her. She lived in her eighties Harriet Jacobs.

1009
00:46:47,356 --> 00:46:50,356
Speaker 1: But you mentioned earlier there's sort of other songs that

1010
00:46:50,396 --> 00:46:52,396
Speaker 1: you've written for this project that you planned to put

1011
00:46:52,396 --> 00:46:55,036
Speaker 1: out in some way, shape or form. How far along

1012
00:46:55,036 --> 00:46:55,876
Speaker 1: with that are you.

1013
00:46:56,436 --> 00:46:58,596
Speaker 3: I think at one point I was working at twenty

1014
00:46:58,876 --> 00:47:01,476
Speaker 3: on twenty songs all at the same time, and I thought,

1015
00:47:01,596 --> 00:47:03,596
Speaker 3: this is just crazy because none of them are going

1016
00:47:03,636 --> 00:47:05,076
Speaker 3: to get finished because I know what I'm like, and

1017
00:47:05,116 --> 00:47:08,116
Speaker 3: I was just take too long. So yeah, so then

1018
00:47:08,156 --> 00:47:10,516
Speaker 3: I just thought, right, just focus on these ten because

1019
00:47:10,556 --> 00:47:13,156
Speaker 3: they're close to being finished, and leave the other ten

1020
00:47:13,236 --> 00:47:15,436
Speaker 3: for now. So yeah, I guess I'll go back to

1021
00:47:15,436 --> 00:47:18,116
Speaker 3: them and revisit them. But I mean they all came

1022
00:47:18,156 --> 00:47:21,676
Speaker 3: around about at the same time as the rest of

1023
00:47:21,716 --> 00:47:22,836
Speaker 3: the song say.

1024
00:47:22,716 --> 00:47:25,316
Speaker 1: It would be beautiful, they're another project related to it.

1025
00:47:26,276 --> 00:47:27,876
Speaker 1: And it's great to hear you talk about this stuff,

1026
00:47:27,956 --> 00:47:31,236
Speaker 1: you know, it's like it's refreshing to hear someone who's

1027
00:47:31,276 --> 00:47:33,596
Speaker 1: connected to the world through art and the way that

1028
00:47:33,676 --> 00:47:34,516
Speaker 1: you are on this record.

1029
00:47:34,756 --> 00:47:35,636
Speaker 4: Thank you very much.

1030
00:47:35,756 --> 00:47:38,636
Speaker 3: Yeah, it has really been an obsession. And I say that,

1031
00:47:38,716 --> 00:47:40,516
Speaker 3: you know, there's so much in there. There's so much

1032
00:47:40,556 --> 00:47:43,876
Speaker 3: in that bank. You know, there's twenty six thousand books

1033
00:47:43,876 --> 00:47:45,916
Speaker 3: and all those stories and all those You could just

1034
00:47:45,916 --> 00:47:48,396
Speaker 3: look at a newspaper article or someone staring out for

1035
00:47:48,396 --> 00:47:52,196
Speaker 3: a photo or find you know, a little stitch, handmade

1036
00:47:52,196 --> 00:47:55,676
Speaker 3: black doll and just you know, it's like they're all

1037
00:47:55,756 --> 00:47:58,916
Speaker 3: objects that have come to us through history for you know,

1038
00:47:59,436 --> 00:48:01,996
Speaker 3: how do they get here? And you know what have

1039
00:48:02,076 --> 00:48:05,556
Speaker 3: they observed? And I just find the whole thing really fascinating.

1040
00:48:05,636 --> 00:48:08,796
Speaker 3: And you know, there are obviously so many, so many

1041
00:48:08,836 --> 00:48:11,556
Speaker 3: of the questions that the objects are asking are still

1042
00:48:11,676 --> 00:48:17,316
Speaker 3: questions and still hotly debated things.

1043
00:48:17,556 --> 00:48:17,916
Speaker 4: Now.

1044
00:48:18,396 --> 00:48:20,876
Speaker 3: I think the fact that the history wasn't done was

1045
00:48:20,876 --> 00:48:23,556
Speaker 3: the thing that made me interested in it as well.

1046
00:48:24,556 --> 00:48:24,756
Speaker 2: Cool.

1047
00:48:24,836 --> 00:48:26,836
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for putting the record out. Thanks for

1048
00:48:26,916 --> 00:48:27,996
Speaker 1: taking the time to chat.

1049
00:48:28,116 --> 00:48:30,276
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. She's been really great to talk

1050
00:48:30,316 --> 00:48:30,476
Speaker 4: to you.

1051
00:48:33,516 --> 00:48:36,276
Speaker 1: Thanks to Krin Bailey Ray for explaining the inspiration for

1052
00:48:36,316 --> 00:48:37,516
Speaker 1: her newest album.

1053
00:48:37,396 --> 00:48:38,356
Speaker 2: Black Rainbows.

1054
00:48:39,196 --> 00:48:41,196
Speaker 1: You can hear it, along with our favorite songs from her,

1055
00:48:41,276 --> 00:48:43,036
Speaker 1: on a playlist at broken record.

1056
00:48:42,796 --> 00:48:44,196
Speaker 2: Podcast dot com.

1057
00:48:44,836 --> 00:48:47,756
Speaker 1: Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash

1058
00:48:47,836 --> 00:48:50,276
Speaker 1: broken record Podcast, where you can find all of our

1059
00:48:50,316 --> 00:48:51,116
Speaker 1: new episodes.

1060
00:48:51,996 --> 00:48:54,316
Speaker 2: You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

1061
00:48:54,836 --> 00:48:57,796
Speaker 1: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with

1062
00:48:57,876 --> 00:49:01,356
Speaker 1: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

1063
00:49:01,556 --> 00:49:05,916
Speaker 1: is Ben Tolladay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

1064
00:49:06,316 --> 00:49:08,996
Speaker 1: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider

1065
00:49:09,156 --> 00:49:13,476
Speaker 1: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast subscription

1066
00:49:13,556 --> 00:49:16,356
Speaker 1: that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four

1067
00:49:16,516 --> 00:49:19,756
Speaker 1: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple

1068
00:49:19,796 --> 00:49:23,796
Speaker 1: podcast subscriptions. And if you like this show, please remember

1069
00:49:23,836 --> 00:49:26,396
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review us on your podcast app.

1070
00:49:26,676 --> 00:49:29,436
Speaker 2: Our theme music's by Anny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.