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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. Some of my favorite

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Speaker 1: stories are stories involving people that kind of lift themselves

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Speaker 1: up out of their points of origin along the way,

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Speaker 1: people that come from rural backgrounds, folks that may have

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Speaker 1: stories involving homes that didn't have running water, indoor plumbing,

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Speaker 1: but yet they wind up being successes. Today, I want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about Linda Collins. I'm Joseph Scott

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Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Backs. My friend Jackie Howard,

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Speaker 1: executive producer of Crime Stories. When Nancy Grace is going

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Speaker 1: to tell us today a little bit about Linda Collins, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: what awell got Joe. Linda Collins was an Arkansas state

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Speaker 1: senator and she was beloved. Everyone who spoke about Linda

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Speaker 1: Collins mentioned that she was passionate about politics and passionate

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Speaker 1: passionate about the area that she represented. When family and

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Speaker 1: friends had not heard from Linda for over twenty four hours,

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Speaker 1: her family went to the home her son specifically, and

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Speaker 1: found her body under a tarp at the end of

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Speaker 1: the driveway. Obviously, the state that the body was found

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Speaker 1: in indicated that foul play happened, and Joe, we know

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Speaker 1: with any investigation, as Nancy Grace has taught us all

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Speaker 1: through the years, you start looking at the closest people

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Speaker 1: to the victim and then work your way out. Well,

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Speaker 1: one of the closest people to this victim was her

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Speaker 1: ex husband and they had a very contentious divorce. So

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Speaker 1: when an investigation starts, Joe, we start with the loved ones. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we do. And you know, to put it kind of

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Speaker 1: investigative parlance. You know, one of the terms that we

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Speaker 1: use is is called intimates. And you know, when when

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Speaker 1: you hear that term, it's got various connotations for different people,

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Speaker 1: But intimates for us are those people that in dwell

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Speaker 1: your little universe. I mean, you know, for all our listeners,

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Speaker 1: you know, think about the people that you came in

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Speaker 1: contact with day after day. The most contact most of

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Speaker 1: us at least, are going to have, or the most

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Speaker 1: frequent contacts. Those individuals that are most familiar with us.

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Speaker 1: They're gonna know our comings and goings. They're gonna know

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Speaker 1: the life that we lead, you know, even things like

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Speaker 1: down to the minutes, like well, you know, I know

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Speaker 1: what time my wife and my husband is going to

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Speaker 1: leave the house to go to work. You know, so

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Speaker 1: you have those kinds of details that say, random strangers

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Speaker 1: would not normally have privy to. And that's that's why

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Speaker 1: it's so important. You know, when when Nancy talks about

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Speaker 1: you're gonna look at people and you know in their

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Speaker 1: immediate circle that terms you used a lot as well.

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Speaker 1: You have to vet each person along that continuum and

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Speaker 1: then you kind of work your way out. And the

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Speaker 1: way I describe it to my forensic students and when

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Speaker 1: I'm teaching things like homicide investigation that's worth it, You

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Speaker 1: imagine that the body. You imagine that the body is

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Speaker 1: the hub, the hub of a wheel, imagine an old

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Speaker 1: wagon wheel, and that you start what's called concentrically, which

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Speaker 1: means right in the center, and then you kind of

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Speaker 1: expand out further and further and further, and too you

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Speaker 1: find a point of interest along there that kind of

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Speaker 1: interests you, you know, that kind of catches your attention

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Speaker 1: as an investigator, and then you begin to work that

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Speaker 1: little thread and try to see what information you can

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Speaker 1: come up with. So what seemed to be the issue

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Speaker 1: in this divorce was money. Each side claimed the other

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Speaker 1: was mismanaging, mishandling, hiding money. How do we go about

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Speaker 1: finding out the truth job. You know, a lot of folks,

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Speaker 1: you know, when they hear people like me dog Jackie,

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Speaker 1: you know, they and they think forensics. They always think,

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Speaker 1: you know, bloody crime scenes. They always think things like

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Speaker 1: uh uh studying blood stains and post mortal intervals and

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Speaker 1: all those things I talked about, because that's kind of

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Speaker 1: the area of working, you know, one of the biggest

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Speaker 1: areas in forensics, one of the things that where people

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Speaker 1: can really do well for themselves as forensic county, and

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Speaker 1: it is a need that occurs over and over and

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Speaker 1: over and over again. And in Ms. Collins case, the

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Speaker 1: divorce that she was going through was very contentious as

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Speaker 1: you as you mentioned, and one of the kind of

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Speaker 1: points along the way was her husband, who is former judge,

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Speaker 1: was actually arguing that she was hiding uh, marital funds

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Speaker 1: from him. I think it was like an arrangement about

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars so that he didn't have access to it,

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Speaker 1: you know, so that couldn't be calculated in the divorce.

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Speaker 1: So when you're looking at this sort of thing, you

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Speaker 1: have to have somebody that understands accountancy, that can go

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Speaker 1: through and look at things like deposits and withdrawals, and

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Speaker 1: they can try to get an ideas to where hidden

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Speaker 1: money might be because you know, even though the divorce

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Speaker 1: is a civil matter, when you were told by the

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Speaker 1: court that you have to stand and deliver with all

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Speaker 1: of your money's that that has to be open for

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Speaker 1: the court to examine. When you begin to hide things,

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Speaker 1: that's when you get over into the criminal court, because

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Speaker 1: that becomes criminal offense. You're in contempt at that point

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Speaker 1: in time. Well, in actuality, Joe, the legal battle that

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Speaker 1: Phil and Linda, phil is her ex husband, we're fighting

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Speaker 1: over it was assets worth over a million dollars. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when you've got that much money on the line, how

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Speaker 1: other things in life? Uh again, to be diminished in value?

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Speaker 1: You know, you people start to look at you know, well,

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Speaker 1: I might not kill you for fifty dollars, but I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna start to think about it at a million, you know.

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Speaker 1: And so as investigators, those are the types of things

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Speaker 1: we're looking for because you know, you have to think,

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Speaker 1: you know, you had mentioned where Ms. Collin's remains were found.

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Speaker 1: Who who could actually do something like this, Who would

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Speaker 1: have this much anger toward her to essentially discard her

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Speaker 1: mortal remains? You know, on the surface of her driveway.

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Speaker 1: But yet they take time to wrap her body up

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Speaker 1: or as I like to refer to it, and uh,

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Speaker 1: from a forensic standpoints, cocooning of the body. But yet

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Speaker 1: they didn't go to the trouble to actually hide the body.

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Speaker 1: They just cocooned her and left her out there on

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Speaker 1: the surface of that driveway. We all think that when

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Speaker 1: you're working a crime scene that it's very tedious work because,

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Speaker 1: as you have pointed out, lots of times can't miss anything.

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Speaker 1: But I would have to imagine that doing a forensic

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Speaker 1: accounting crunching numbers, that would have to be a little

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Speaker 1: bit more meticulous. Yeah, yeah, it is, and it you know,

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Speaker 1: in forensics, we're we're we have a variety of different personalities.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'm kind of a broad macro kind of

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Speaker 1: person looking at I look at details, but I look

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Speaker 1: at at broader things. But there's three three areas in

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Speaker 1: forensic practice that it's always got. It's tedious for me.

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Speaker 1: I couldn't do it. I don't have that. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if I have the mental power to do it.

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Speaker 1: But that's accountancy, uh and uh, computer forensics you have

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Speaker 1: to be very detailed, and I believe it or not

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Speaker 1: latent print examiners, because you spend a lot of time

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Speaker 1: focusing on very very small micro details and and they're in,

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Speaker 1: you know, rest the crux of your case. Um, And

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Speaker 1: it takes a certain mentality to be able to do it.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, you know, teaching my students,

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Speaker 1: I often compare those three groups of people in forensics

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Speaker 1: UH to UH watchmakers because it requires such fine skill

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Speaker 1: in order to be able to kind of suss out

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Speaker 1: what's going in going on in in those environments and

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Speaker 1: to put it into the overall context. You know. It's

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Speaker 1: one thing to find out that your mama, your daddy

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Speaker 1: has passed on as a result of some kind of

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Speaker 1: natural cause. But I just, Jackie, I just can't even

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Speaker 1: begin to fathom what Linda Collins son Butch was going

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Speaker 1: through that day when he saw this tar playing out

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Speaker 1: there in the driveway and he had this odor that

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Speaker 1: hit him. It's almost unfathomable. When Linda's son found her body,

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Speaker 1: he said that the first thing he saw was her

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Speaker 1: blonde hair sticking out from under the tarp. Knowing now

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Speaker 1: that her body had been under that tarp for a

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Speaker 1: period of time, what would he have found, Joe. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the most striking things when you

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Speaker 1: come across a human remain like this, And most of

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Speaker 1: the time it's not it's not going to be a

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Speaker 1: police officer that does this, somebody that's kind of it's

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Speaker 1: not necessarily callousness. But after you have done this for

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Speaker 1: for a while, you do begin to develop a um

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Speaker 1: more of a of an objective view of these cases.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about somebody that's emotionally invested here, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about her son, Butch and when he saw her on

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Speaker 1: that surface, and you make a good point here, Jackie,

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Speaker 1: where you're talking about the blonde hair was protruding. He

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Speaker 1: knew it. I mean that we think about our family

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Speaker 1: members and we know those little fine details. And then

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Speaker 1: you know, one of the things that you hear from

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Speaker 1: family members that encounter something like this is that they

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Speaker 1: are almost sucker punched by nature, if you will, the

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Speaker 1: reality of what's going on, because you have this vile smell,

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Speaker 1: you're inhalating the smell. And then on top of that,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that that he had gone on

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Speaker 1: to mention was the fact that there were flies, and

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Speaker 1: that is a horrible horrible image to have to deal with.

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Speaker 1: But when we think about uh medical legal death investigation,

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Speaker 1: we go back to those flies and we begin to think,

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Speaker 1: you know what, what can those flies tell us? All right?

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Speaker 1: They told Butch something in particular, they told him that

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Speaker 1: his mother had passed on her who he believed was

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Speaker 1: probably his mother. There they wound up having to get

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Speaker 1: her i d scientifically, but for us as forensic investigators,

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Speaker 1: those flies are valuable because it goes to a life cycle.

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Speaker 1: You know, where we have eggs and you know, sometimes

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Speaker 1: the you know, we you can kind of open that um.

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Speaker 1: You know, a female fly will lay you know, maybe

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Speaker 1: a hundred hundred eggs. They will lay these eggs on

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Speaker 1: a body like this and generally a moist area, and

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Speaker 1: then they begin to cycle. And what we can do

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Speaker 1: forensically is that we can tie back two points in

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Speaker 1: time relative to the development of these of these flies,

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Speaker 1: you know, from from egg to maggot uh to you know,

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Speaker 1: going into the pupil stage. And then you know, when

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Speaker 1: we have an adult fly that that that emerges, you

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Speaker 1: have a specific marker and time, and that gives you

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Speaker 1: an indication as to how long an individual would have

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Speaker 1: been down Now This is further this is further magnified

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Speaker 1: in this case because you're in the South in the summer.

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Speaker 1: We're talking about Arkansas. I think her remains were actually

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Speaker 1: found on June four, so we're talking about very warm weather.

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Speaker 1: And then too uh to even make this uh more intense,

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Speaker 1: the fact that she was covered. And remember I used

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Speaker 1: the term cocoon. Uh. There is when you have a

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Speaker 1: body that is decomposing, it's actually um generating. Uh. There's

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Speaker 1: there's heat that's being generated in this cocoon state. It's

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Speaker 1: not open to say wind blowing over, maybe cool maybe

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Speaker 1: slow down, you know, the process a little bit. It's

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Speaker 1: actually being accelerated. And then we all know what the

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Speaker 1: surface of a of a driveway feels like summertime. It's hot.

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Speaker 1: That heat transfers and as we've talked previously on body backs, heat,

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Speaker 1: heat actually speeds up any kind of biological process. So

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Speaker 1: the hotter it is relative humidity. Uh. You know these

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Speaker 1: lies are showing up, You're going to have a mess

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Speaker 1: on your hands. What you're describing their job plays into

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Speaker 1: the determination of how Linda Collins died. Originally, we were

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Speaker 1: told that she was shot, but that really wasn't the case.

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Speaker 1: What caused the confusion, Well, it goes back to decomposition UM.

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Speaker 1: When you're looking at a remain human remain and uh,

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Speaker 1: you're seeing what we referred to as and and listen,

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Speaker 1: I want people to understand. It's very clearly when you

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Speaker 1: begin to see an injury on a body, it's rare

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Speaker 1: that any of us in forensics, you'll hear people that

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Speaker 1: will use term like stab wound or gunshot wound. I

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Speaker 1: never use those terms when I met a scene. First off,

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Speaker 1: I don't I wasn't there, I didn't see it happen.

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Speaker 1: So the term that we generally use as a term

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Speaker 1: called defect, and what that means, UM is that there

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Speaker 1: is an opening essentially in the body UM that I

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Speaker 1: don't know the origin of because actually I've seen insect

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Speaker 1: activity create defects in a body, believe it or not, UM,

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Speaker 1: And this happens with great frequency. And also the other thing,

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Speaker 1: if there is a trauma related defect, let's say back

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Speaker 1: to the stab wound or the gunshot wound, what will

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Speaker 1: happen is that the flies as they begin to sit

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Speaker 1: in and they lay their eggs in these morist areas,

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Speaker 1: the magots developed. They have to have a source of energy,

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Speaker 1: so they begin feasting, and when they do, they change,

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Speaker 1: They actually change, if you can believe this, the nature

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Speaker 1: of the injuries themselves. So when you're at the scene,

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Speaker 1: first off, you're in a very compromised position out there,

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Speaker 1: poorly lit um. It's uh, you've got eyes, you know,

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Speaker 1: on the scene that are looking at you what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: You're not in a controlled environment. So when you begin

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Speaker 1: to look at those injuries on the body, your default

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Speaker 1: position many times is to say, yeah, this looks like

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Speaker 1: a gunshot wound. And then suddenly when you drop that information,

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Speaker 1: all the people that are surrounding that scene begin to

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Speaker 1: take that information and it's disseminated without further scientific explanation.

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Speaker 1: So it's always important, it's imperative actually that we wait

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Speaker 1: until we get the body to the mord where we've

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Speaker 1: got a controlled environment, we've got great lighting, we've got

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Speaker 1: X ray h X ray capability, and then we make

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Speaker 1: the diagnosis after we have assessed the injuries. We just

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Speaker 1: don't our default position should not just automatically be gunshot wound, okay,

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Speaker 1: because it's very hard to make that determination at the scene.

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Speaker 1: Something that you can scientifically hang your hat on, and

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Speaker 1: it's very dangerous because this is the problem. Let's say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, Uh, you've got a stab wound as opposed

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Speaker 1: to a gunshot wound. Well, now if you take that thread,

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Speaker 1: that piece of investigative information that you have saved it

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Speaker 1: at the scene, now you're sending the investigators out on

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Speaker 1: a wild goose chase looking for somebody that's carrying a

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Speaker 1: gun and that's not the case at all. You're also

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Speaker 1: spending time at the scene looking for things like spent

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Speaker 1: ammunition cases. Well, there might not have been a weapon

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Speaker 1: involved that would have been ejecting ammunition cases. So that's

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Speaker 1: a problem. So you have to be very very careful

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Speaker 1: in what you say. So, the surface area of Linda

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Speaker 1: Collins body was damaged from the initial injury and then

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Speaker 1: again from the insect activity, So investigators had to take

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Speaker 1: her body back to the morgue and do an in depth,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, incision of this area for them to

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Speaker 1: be able to determine that she was actually stabbed. So

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Speaker 1: what they found, what's what, Joe? Yeah, they would have found.

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Speaker 1: First off, they would have done X rays because X

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Speaker 1: rays see through everything, and I'm not saying that, Uh,

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Speaker 1: that's that's kind of an obvious statement. But you know,

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about that capability, uh, that

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Speaker 1: that piece of technology that you have at your disposal.

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Speaker 1: If you're looking for a gunshot woman, for instance, if

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Speaker 1: you're looking or you think that it's a gunshot woman

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Speaker 1: and you x ray the body, one of the things

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Speaker 1: you're gonna look for when you take a look at

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Speaker 1: that x ray. Everybody has ever been x ray before

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Speaker 1: you had a broken bone or sprain or something. That

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Speaker 1: doctor puts that thing up on the on the board

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Speaker 1: and you can see your bones and that sort of thing.

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Speaker 1: One of the things you look for, uh with uh

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Speaker 1: with gunshot ones, for instance, is many times what we

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Speaker 1: refer to as a lead storm. UH. As that bullet

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Speaker 1: tracks through the body, it might clip a bone, UH,

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Speaker 1: particularly if you've got multiple gunshot wounds and little fragments

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Speaker 1: of of the lead the lead projectile begin to kind

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Speaker 1: of peel off, and you'll get these little dots because

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Speaker 1: lead is what's referred to as radio opaque, So they

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Speaker 1: begin to show up there. They're white, you know, a

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Speaker 1: contrast against that that kind of dark or gray X

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Speaker 1: ray image, and so it really stands out. So all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, and then, of course, not to mention,

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Speaker 1: you're looking for the intact projectile and that's going to

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Speaker 1: really show up on X rays. And so when you're

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Speaker 1: you've got this severely decomposed body and you begin to

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Speaker 1: look at these X ray images and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: you're scratching your head there and you're thinking, oh, my lord,

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Speaker 1: I don't see I don't see any radio opaque bodies

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Speaker 1: within the remains. I don't see the little lead storm

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Speaker 1: that may occur along the wound track. I'm not seeing

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Speaker 1: anything at all that resembles this. What are we dealing with?

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Speaker 1: And that's the point in time where you can begin

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Speaker 1: kind of logically to check gunfire related injury off of

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Speaker 1: your list. But it's important to go back and take

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Speaker 1: a look at the external injury. You know what, what

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Speaker 1: you think is this point of origin, the entrance versus

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Speaker 1: the exit wounds and all these sorts of things. And

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Speaker 1: so when you look at that and you begin to

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Speaker 1: really dive down into this um, the wounds, the actual injuries,

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Speaker 1: the in the entrance wounds, they don't marry up with

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Speaker 1: a traditional gunshot one. You begin to see things that

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Speaker 1: where the margins are kind of linear. And when I

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Speaker 1: say margins, I'm talking about the borders of the injury.

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Speaker 1: They're they're kind of linear. Um. And that may have

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Speaker 1: been compromised, of course by the fact that you've got

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Speaker 1: decomposition going on. UM. So you have to be very,

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Speaker 1: very careful. And you know, it's almost counterintuitive because you know,

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Speaker 1: us in forensics, we're human beings too. You don't want

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Speaker 1: to have to spend any more time around decomposing body

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Speaker 1: than you have to. But here's the rub, and this

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Speaker 1: is what kind of separates us from everybody else that

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Speaker 1: thinks they want to work in forensics. When you're in

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Speaker 1: a room with a decomposing body, you're gonna find out

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Speaker 1: how badly you want this job, how badly you want

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Speaker 1: to do well at it, because you're going to force

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Speaker 1: yourself to take your time, ignore all the horrors of decomposition,

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Speaker 1: and focus on those injuries because you don't know what

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Speaker 1: is writing on this. You don't know if you've got

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Speaker 1: a killer that's run around the neighborhood. But you have

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Speaker 1: to set that aside and focus in on the injury

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Speaker 1: so that you can actually assess them. Yeah, I gotta

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Speaker 1: tell you, Jackie, you know, after after you spend all

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Speaker 1: of this time examining, examining these remains, you finally come

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Speaker 1: to conclusion, and they well did up in up in Arkansas,

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Speaker 1: they kind of conclusion, we're not dealing We're not dealing

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Speaker 1: with multiple gunshot one case. We're dealing with a multiple

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Speaker 1: stabling case. Jack. As we talked about at the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the program, Joe, we looked at intimates and money,

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Speaker 1: and in the end, that's exactly what this case came

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Speaker 1: down to. Yeah, you know, as as this thing against

339
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Speaker 1: unwind from an investigative standpoint, you begin to realize that

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Speaker 1: there's this this woman this kind of got a questionable

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Speaker 1: pass that that Ms Collins had hired to work on

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Speaker 1: her campaign staff, lady by the name of Rebecca lenn O'Donnell,

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Speaker 1: and uh, she had become very close friends with with

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Speaker 1: Ms Collins. As a matter of fact, she had become

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Speaker 1: you know, we talked about intimates she had become so

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Speaker 1: close with Ms. Collins that during the course of this

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Speaker 1: you know, uh, brutal divorce that Linda was going through,

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Speaker 1: O'Donnell actually came to court and testified on Lynda Collins

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Speaker 1: behalf in in the midst of this contentious divorce. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine, Uh, it's one thing to go through a

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Speaker 1: divorce and you have to go through these hearings. Can

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Speaker 1: you imagine going through a divorce proceeding like this and

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Speaker 1: the person at the other table is a former judge.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's a bit overwhelming. So they were

355
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Speaker 1: close enough that Ms Collins felt like that O'Donnell uh,

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Speaker 1: that she could stand up under questioning for perhaps that

357
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Speaker 1: she was that close she was in her intimate circle.

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Speaker 1: And and so it's not necessarily all of the time

359
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Speaker 1: when you're beginning to look at people that it's going

360
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Speaker 1: to be a blood relation or somebody that you're you know,

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Speaker 1: married to. Well, you're right, Joe, about how close these

362
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Speaker 1: two women became. They vacationed together, and people who knew

363
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Speaker 1: them said they were together all the time, that they

364
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Speaker 1: were like sisters. They were, and you've you know, you've

365
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Speaker 1: got these these uh uh, these photograph ELFs of them

366
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Speaker 1: where they're both smiling and they're they're happy. You know,

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Speaker 1: they're they're there. They have what appears to be at

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Speaker 1: least a common goal, and of course that was to

369
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Speaker 1: you know, to to advance Linda Collins political political career. UM.

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Speaker 1: And O'Donnell was there as a campaign worker. I think

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Speaker 1: she was you know, she may have been making about

372
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Speaker 1: ten bucks an hour, but she was all in on

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Speaker 1: helping Linda. And I think as it turned out, you know,

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Speaker 1: O'Donnell began to see uh, began to see uh Linda

375
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Speaker 1: UM as a source of funding. And I don't mean

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Speaker 1: funding in a good way. I'm talking about getting into

377
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Speaker 1: her bank accounts and this sort of thing to take

378
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Speaker 1: money from her. Ultimately, those forensic accountants that we talked

379
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Speaker 1: about in the beginning found a very clever trail that

380
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Speaker 1: led back to O'Donnell. She had been forging, among other things,

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Speaker 1: forging Linda collins signature, you know, and that that brings

382
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Speaker 1: in another practice within forensics, and that's what's referred to

383
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Speaker 1: his question document examination. We also call it forensic document examination,

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Speaker 1: and it's a it's a particular skill set that individuals

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Speaker 1: have UM. And you know, these same people in forensic

386
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Speaker 1: practice are the folks that will uh that we'll take

387
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Speaker 1: a look at say alleged counterfeit uh money. UH. They'll

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Speaker 1: look at deeds, they look at wills, and you know,

389
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Speaker 1: the the crux of it, UM and I encourage anybody

390
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Speaker 1: that that's interested in in this to check out. Professor Osborne,

391
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Speaker 1: who's the father of modern handwriting examination, actually worked on

392
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Speaker 1: the Lindbergh baby case UH and wrote the definitive text.

393
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Speaker 1: And his his big focus, particularly at that time, remember

394
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Speaker 1: we weren't in a digital world at that time, was

395
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Speaker 1: taking a look at forged signatures. And in this particular case,

396
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Speaker 1: Ms O'Donnell had been taking checks that we're drawn on

397
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Speaker 1: Linda Collins accounts and had been forging her signature. And

398
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Speaker 1: there's any number of ways that you can kind of

399
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Speaker 1: take a look at this from an investigative standpoint, and

400
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Speaker 1: one of the one of the ways that you do this,

401
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: UM is that if you have a suspect in a

402
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: case of forgery, like in this particular example, you would

403
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: ask them for what are referred to as exemplars and uh.

404
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: The investigators will say okay, for instance, UM, right right,

405
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: this name out UH ten times and the individual will

406
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Speaker 1: begin to write the name out ten times, say for instance.

407
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Speaker 1: And you might can try to disguise your writing one

408
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 1: or two times and get it close. But this is

409
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Speaker 1: what happens shacking. It's fascinating is that your brain has

410
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Speaker 1: a default you know, ever since we were little, little

411
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: bitty and we were learning how to write our our

412
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 1: default position with our brain and kind of our our

413
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: motor skills have this kind of ingrained. So to be

414
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,719
Speaker 1: a really good forger, it's something that has to be

415
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: practiced over and over and over and over again. The

416
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: reason these people get caught is that always at the

417
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 1: end of the day, their true handwriting style rises to

418
00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 1: the top. Joe, the accounting evidence was not all that

419
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: led to o'donald's arrest. Surveillance video played a part in

420
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Speaker 1: this as well. Yeah, did Jackie. And I gotta tell you,

421
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Speaker 1: as horrible as these things are that that we've talked

422
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 1: about here, uh with with Lynda collins remains and how

423
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:55,639
Speaker 1: they were treated, I think for me, as you know,

424
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Speaker 1: as I was looking back over this case and reviewing it,

425
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Speaker 1: one of the things that is absolutely bone chilling is

426
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: the fact that the police actually recovered videography from Lynda

427
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: Collins home and it was ms O'Donnell actually taking what

428
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: appeared to be at least a blood stained knife, and

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00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,680
Speaker 1: she's almost got a smile on her face. You can

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00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 1: see it. It's it's there. It's faint, and she's got

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00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,080
Speaker 1: blood on her hand, and she's placing this knife into

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00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: a bag, sequestering it. And you know, you know, you

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00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 1: can kind of superimpose what you think she's doing because

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00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 1: it's immediately um apparent that she's going to walk out

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00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 1: the door this knife. But one of the things that

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00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: was chilling that they captured on this videotape is that

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00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: you could hear screaming. You could hear screaming prior to

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00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:05,479
Speaker 1: that image, and in this case impacted me in that

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00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 1: sense when I began to review it, because I think

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00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: in the horror that Limma Collins suffered. One of the

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00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: other contentious points in this divorce between Collins and her

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00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: husband the judge, was that there was missing gold and silver.

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00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 1: Later it became known that Rebecca o'donnald was accused of

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00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: selling gold and silver that she reportedly got from Collins. Yeah,

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00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 1: and you know the thing about selling gold and silver

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00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: is it it's very difficult to you know, kind of

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00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: unload if you will. Generally, the the practice of doing

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00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: something like this is that you're either gonna take gold

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00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 1: and kind of squirrel it away in a safety deposit box. Um,

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00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: maybe you you have a gold broker, somebody that you

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00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: could uh negotiate with, but for most of the time,

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00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 1: most of the time you're either gonna sell it, uh too,

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00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: maybe a jeweler, but nine times i'd attend you gonna

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00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: go to pawn shop with it. And um just so

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00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: our listeners know, many times with with police investigative agencies,

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00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: there are actually divisions within uh criminal investigation division that

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00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 1: do nothing and I mean nothing but uh follow down

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00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: leads at pawn shops because many times that's a perfect

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00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: opportunity for somebody to fence or to try to make

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00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: money off of stolen goods. So all of these things

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00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 1: Joe were pulled together by police to develop a case

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00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: against Rebecca o'donnald, and she received a lengthy prison sentence. Yeah,

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00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: and I think that when O'Donnell was faced with all

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00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: of this this information, you know, it was it was

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00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 1: almost like a a perfect recipe uh for the prosecutors,

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00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: because you know, she was she was staring down the

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00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: barrel of of being executed. This was this is a

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00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: capital offense, you know, they they knew that. You know,

469
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: this was surrounding a criminal ongoing criminal enterprise with Ms Collins,

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00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: which many times is one of the elements of capital offense,

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00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: you know, if you're in commission of felony where and

472
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: you know, let's face it, O'Donnell saw ms Collins as

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00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: her own personal bank. You know, she's she's taking taking

474
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: this woman, this this poor woman that's going through this

475
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: horrible divorce. She's taking advantage of her trust at this

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00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: moment in time. And as it turns out, O'Donnell finally

477
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: uh saw the light and she admitted to everything. And

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00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,840
Speaker 1: of course, as a result of this overwhelming evidence, you know,

479
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,400
Speaker 1: we have the body, we have the bank transactions, we

480
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: have the theft, ongoing theft and deception. It was too

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00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: much for O'Donnell to to try to defeat in court,

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00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: and she pled out. She pled out. She she stated

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00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: that she did, in fact murder ms Collins. And of

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00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: course now she's cooling her heels and jail for the

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00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: next fifty years. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is

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00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: body backs