Speaker 1: Everybody.
Speaker 2: Uh boy, today is a guest that I deeply respect
Speaker 2: and admire.
Speaker 1: This person.
Speaker 2: We've known each other for a lot of years. She's
Speaker 2: taken on just such unforgettable characters in films like Freaky Friday, Halloween,
Speaker 2: everything Everywhere, all at once and Wow. Her performance on
Speaker 2: the recent TV hit The Bear was spectacular. And if
Speaker 2: you don't know who I'm talking about, you may live
Speaker 2: under a rock. Jamie Lee Curtis is coming to the show.
Speaker 1: Folks, lean in. I'm glad you're here.
Speaker 2: Jamie Lee Curtis, Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 2: Thank you for getting here before the actual host. I mean,
Speaker 2: let me ask you something. Do you exhibit this level
Speaker 2: of professionalism on a movie set? Are you one of
Speaker 2: those and this is an absolute serious question. Are you
Speaker 2: one of those people that comes to work on time.
Speaker 1: And knows their lines? And uh, you know is are you?
Speaker 3: Well? You're giving actors a really bad name. Cavin Macon, Hello, friend, Hello,
Speaker 3: see you. I will tell you this, and I'm only
Speaker 3: telling you this because I read it when it actually happened.
Speaker 3: So I was in a movie called Knives Out movie,
Speaker 3: a great movie. I was, by the way, a replacement
Speaker 3: part and meaning that there was somebody else that was
Speaker 3: supposed to do it, and then they somehow dropped out,
Speaker 3: which often happens in movies. And then yes, and then
Speaker 3: I stepped in and had this wonderful experience with Ryan Johnson.
Speaker 3: But at the end of the movie, you know, the
Speaker 3: movie was great and people loved it. It was one
Speaker 3: of those wonderful things where people just fell in love
Speaker 3: with this movie. And somebody asked, Ryan, who is your
Speaker 3: MVP of the cast, and you know, it's a big cast, great,
Speaker 3: great people, and he said Jamie And they said why.
Speaker 3: He said, well, she was always on set even when
Speaker 3: she wasn't supposed to be in a scene. And he said,
Speaker 3: she literally sat at the kitchen table in this house
Speaker 3: from six am until we wrapped every day. And he said,
Speaker 3: so I ended up putting her in scenes she wasn't
Speaker 3: originally supposed to be in, and that was what he said. So, yes,
Speaker 3: I am that person who is at work before everybody else,
Speaker 3: and I like to stay until everybody is finished.
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how much I admire that.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm usually kind of the same way, and I
Speaker 2: think part of it is that I just like to
Speaker 2: be there.
Speaker 1: Man. I mean, I just that takes.
Speaker 3: About but that's I love it. I love this job.
Speaker 3: And the truth is I am a freelance actor, which
Speaker 3: means I'm an unemployed actor for ninety Like the amount
Speaker 3: of time I actually get to do the thing that
Speaker 3: I am known for that I love doing. That is
Speaker 3: my art, that is my work is very very small.
Speaker 3: So when I have an opportunity to be on a set,
Speaker 3: I want to be on the set. I want to
Speaker 3: watch the whole thing. I want to know everybody. I
Speaker 3: want to know what everybody is doing. And that to
Speaker 3: me is as much a part of it as it
Speaker 3: is to just do the part where I'm on the
Speaker 3: behind the you know, in front of the lens and
Speaker 3: whatever the scene is. So it's really it's it's it's
Speaker 3: actually crucial to me.
Speaker 2: And you talk about the amount of time that we
Speaker 2: spend not acting, which is, you know a lot of
Speaker 2: we spend a lot of time doing other stuff.
Speaker 3: But some people I know, I was going to tell
Speaker 3: music who some people I know play music with goats
Speaker 3: with their wife, which if that doesn't annoy anybody else
Speaker 3: watching this, you know, it's like by the way, the Island,
Speaker 3: It's like the David Beckham documentary when he dances to
Speaker 3: Islands in the Stream with his wife in that bullshit.
Speaker 3: But I mean, can you imagine, Kevin? I said to Christopher,
Speaker 3: I said, Chris, what would you do if I played
Speaker 3: Islands in the Stream and then started to dance and
Speaker 3: asked you to dance with me? You and your wife
Speaker 3: get a freaking room, Kevin Bacon, you have.
Speaker 1: No idea I would.
Speaker 2: I would give anything to see you and Chris in
Speaker 2: the kitchen.
Speaker 3: First of all, Chris Hope for the uninformed, here direct
Speaker 3: in a movie that Kevin.
Speaker 2: Is so great in is least well known movie, and
Speaker 2: it really.
Speaker 1: It needs to not be anymore. It needs to be.
Speaker 2: People need to see this movie because if anybody wants
Speaker 2: it's a scripted movie.
Speaker 1: It's true. It's it's different. It's different than the other
Speaker 1: unbelievably brilliant movies he's made.
Speaker 2: But I would always I always tell people this is
Speaker 2: a an out and out comedy. I have very I'm
Speaker 2: a small piece of it because I'm really just the
Speaker 2: straight man. But if you want to know what Hollywood
Speaker 2: really is, this is the movie to really understand Hollywood.
Speaker 3: He just it's called by the way, it's called the
Speaker 3: big picture, and it's about movie making and a young
Speaker 3: filmmaker who Kevin plays. So yes, if you can imagine
Speaker 3: Kevin Christopher Christopher Virtue. When I said island's in the stream,
Speaker 3: he said, what's that?
Speaker 1: Then you go really really.
Speaker 3: Like, I have to start to sing it. You don't
Speaker 3: want to hear me sing. It's awful. Anyway, you and
Speaker 3: your wife can get a room and stay in it
Speaker 3: for a long long time.
Speaker 1: Please we listen. We want we like to get well.
Speaker 2: We're you know, being not we're out of work for
Speaker 2: a long time with this strike, and you know it's
Speaker 2: like you're looking for something to do, to just be creative, to.
Speaker 3: Make something other people paint, you know, paint. My husband
Speaker 3: is playing golf right now.
Speaker 1: You to play golf.
Speaker 3: You just you to make love all day every day
Speaker 3: with those watching and without it's just you. People make
Speaker 3: love in every room in your house and you want
Speaker 3: to and you singing while you make love like it's
Speaker 3: best fascinated by you people.
Speaker 2: Okay, enough about our love life. I want to know
Speaker 2: how it feels. Because you mentioned being out of you know,
Speaker 2: spending so much of our time not working. You're I
Speaker 2: would say, arguably busier than you've been in your entire
Speaker 2: career at this point in your life, and we are
Speaker 2: at the same point in our lives and you know, chronologically,
Speaker 2: and I wonder how that feels. I mean, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of people that are pumping the brakes now, you know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that aren't looking down the road,
Speaker 2: that are saying, you know, maybe I'll just kind of
Speaker 2: do something else or try something else.
Speaker 1: But you are on fire and it's so cool to
Speaker 1: watch as a as a fan. Thank you.
Speaker 3: I'm yeah. And you know, the thing, as we were
Speaker 3: talking about the fact that that we don't work very often,
Speaker 3: you know, actors are incredibly patient. You have to be
Speaker 3: really patient and understand that you just need to suit
Speaker 3: up and show up and do the work whatever it is,
Speaker 3: whatever the job is, to the best of your ability,
Speaker 3: to sort of create a sense of community with the
Speaker 3: people you're doing it with. As I like to say,
Speaker 3: leave the place better for you being there. Leave. Then
Speaker 3: months and months and months go by, sometimes years go by,
Speaker 3: and then these pieces of work come out and either
Speaker 3: they're heralded and people love them, or they're horribly received
Speaker 3: and people ship on them and say that it's the
Speaker 3: worst thing they've ever seen, and then you feel bad,
Speaker 3: and then you go on to the next thing, and
Speaker 3: you just keep doing that, and the patience is that
Speaker 3: it is way out of my hints. I have opened
Speaker 3: myself to my life in every aspect of it, philanthropically, emotionally, spiritually, maritally, maternally, artistically,
Speaker 3: and I have been very lucky because I've had good
Speaker 3: fortune and things have panned out, and then all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, you take that little bit of success and
Speaker 3: then you try to ill done it. And at this point,
Speaker 3: I now get to be a producer. I get to
Speaker 3: have a company. I get to buy material and see
Speaker 3: it developed into things. I get to act in things.
Speaker 3: I get to work with people who I would dream
Speaker 3: of working with my entire early life and understood that
Speaker 3: that was probably never going to happen. So I'm trying
Speaker 3: to just stay in the grace of the moment and
Speaker 3: have no expectations. And certainly this last year was not
Speaker 3: in my plan. It was not something I thought of.
Speaker 3: And it's funny because yesterday I have a publicist who
Speaker 3: has been my friend and publicist since I was twenty one. Wow,
Speaker 3: I'm sixty five and she's still a publicist. Her name
Speaker 3: is Heidi Schaeffer, and Heidi and my agent called me
Speaker 3: last summer. Well, no, wait, hold on, this is twenty three.
Speaker 3: The Oscars were in March, so that's twenty three. So
Speaker 3: in the summer of twenty two, I was in Idaho,
Speaker 3: where Chris and I live, where we don't make love
Speaker 3: in the bar like you two. We don't have goats,
Speaker 3: so you know, it's also there's nothing similar about us,
Speaker 3: although we like each other and we do fish. And
Speaker 3: the phone rang and she's, you know, was Heidi and
Speaker 3: my agent and I like, the agent's assistant said, I
Speaker 3: have Heidi Schaeffer and Rick Krutzman for you. And I
Speaker 3: was just like, what, why are you bothering me? What?
Speaker 3: What do you want? What do you want? And they said, well,
Speaker 3: we want to talk to you about the campaign. I said,
Speaker 3: what campaign? What are you talking about? They said, well,
Speaker 3: you know, a twenty four smooth I was like, oh, stop,
Speaker 3: shut up. So I'm telling you it was the last
Speaker 3: thing I ever thought that would happen. And the fact
Speaker 3: that this year has happened, and then the work I
Speaker 3: get to do because of it has just opened me
Speaker 3: up in a way. To answer your lovely question. Open wide,
Speaker 3: open heart, chakra, open spirit, open, and you know, open
Speaker 3: to receive the art that I get to do now.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that, I mean.
Speaker 2: But what's interesting also is that it's you're talking about
Speaker 2: being open in your life and not and not burdening
Speaker 2: yourself with some kind of expectations. But it's also being
Speaker 2: open in your work, which is something that comes from
Speaker 2: a lifetime spent doing it. And it's so clear in
Speaker 2: the work. I mean, the Bear, as I've told you,
Speaker 2: I've reached out to you after I saw it, and
Speaker 2: it was it was just truly spectacular, reals so much
Speaker 2: kind of kind of work. And you've always been so great,
Speaker 2: and it's so great when you see somebody that you've
Speaker 2: always loved as a performer and then you know, they
Speaker 2: just fucking surprise you. You know what I mean, They
Speaker 2: just they just you know, come out and you know,
Speaker 2: they just hit you with it with a right hook
Speaker 2: and you go, WHOA.
Speaker 1: I mean, because yes, but.
Speaker 3: Your daughter and I share something as you.
Speaker 1: Know, I know you do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, she has taken over the mantle beautifully of Scream Queen.
Speaker 3: She's a very talented young woman and she will tell
Speaker 3: you what I've known all along, which is horror movies
Speaker 3: demand deep, deep expressions of sadness, fear, tension. But you
Speaker 3: know all of the sort of angsty performer tools and
Speaker 3: the demands them of. You had a nano second at
Speaker 3: four thirty in the morning, in the pouring rain, covered
Speaker 3: in mud and blood, and then they roll the camera
Speaker 3: and demand in that second with no other impetus. There
Speaker 3: is no you know, the Bear is a play. The
Speaker 3: Bear is written like a play, it's acted like a play.
Speaker 3: We didn't rehearse it. Basically, we ran it so we
Speaker 3: would know where we would stand. And then they just
Speaker 3: said rolling and handing old cameras allowed it to be
Speaker 3: totally inflow. So of course the boats are going to
Speaker 3: rise because the writing is so extraordinary. But remember horror movies,
Speaker 3: often the writing isn't so extraordinary, and you don't have
Speaker 3: the play, you don't have all of it. You have
Speaker 3: your skill to carry you in those moments. And your
Speaker 3: daughter can really attest to this, and you see, it's
Speaker 3: an un it's an unappreciated genre of performing. And I've
Speaker 3: been doing it for a long, long long time, and
Speaker 3: I am ripped my guts out on those movies and
Speaker 3: nobody pays that attention. They just don't care because the
Speaker 3: movies themselves have whatever the the feeling is and so not.
Speaker 3: Not that you are supposed to pay attention to the skill,
Speaker 3: but that work I've been doing since I was nineteen
Speaker 3: years old. Well that was my first movie, Halloween.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that Halloween. Yeah, that's a really good point. I
Speaker 1: mean people, you know, I've done my share of horror,
Speaker 1: and people will say why do you like it?
Speaker 2: And why would you keep coming back to it, as
Speaker 2: though you know, why wouldn't you only do something else,
Speaker 2: you know, action or family dramas or whatever. And I
Speaker 2: always say, because it's because the stakes are so high
Speaker 2: in horror, Like it's always life and death. And it's
Speaker 2: like when you when you get to play like to me,
Speaker 2: when you get to play that that that's always the
Speaker 2: challenging stuff. Not to mention, I mean when when you
Speaker 2: know you were so sweet to reach out to associate,
Speaker 2: you know, after Smile came out and when she was
Speaker 2: in the middle of it, it was we got a
Speaker 2: chance to actually discuss, uh, which is something not something
Speaker 2: that we had done too much up until that point,
Speaker 2: Like what it was like to act in a horror
Speaker 2: move and they said, the hardest thing about it, honey,
Speaker 2: is that every day you're going in and you got
Speaker 2: to do a new version of being scared. And that
Speaker 2: is a that's like a that's a tough thing to
Speaker 2: do in a in a in a you know, hour
Speaker 2: and forty minute movie. It's it's it's a lot, it's
Speaker 2: a lot of challenges. I'm speaking of her. I don't
Speaker 2: want to do the podcast about her. Look you know, look,
Speaker 2: she doesn't need I want to do this.
Speaker 1: I adore her.
Speaker 2: As you know, you've been very vocal about this kind
Speaker 2: of nebo baby.
Speaker 1: Concept. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, and and uh, you know, I'm just wondering, you
Speaker 2: know how, because you can relate to it clearly.
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering how you how you feel about it.
Speaker 2: I mean, what what what's your what's your I mean,
Speaker 2: what's your what's your take on on that?
Speaker 1: That concept?
Speaker 3: It's been the same since day one. The reason why
Speaker 3: it just kind of came up a lot was because
Speaker 3: the word it was right when I was in the
Speaker 3: cycle of a lot of promotion, and the word sort
Speaker 3: of entered the zeitgeist, and all of a sudden, it
Speaker 3: was everywhere and you know, I've I've been my parents'
Speaker 3: daughter since I was born, and.
Speaker 1: It works out that way.
Speaker 3: I know it's crazy. And when I was in high school,
Speaker 3: you know it. Your parents procede you into any room
Speaker 3: you walk into. I don't care if high school, college,
Speaker 3: a movie set, a business office. Your parents precede you.
Speaker 3: It's like a procession. And you know, I'm not unaware
Speaker 3: of it. Of course I understand it. And by the way,
Speaker 3: I've probably also judged people marshly in the same way
Speaker 3: that probably people judge me. So you know, I'm no
Speaker 3: angel here. But here's what I will say at four
Speaker 3: thirty in the morning, covered in mud and blood, when
Speaker 3: they're running out of time because they're going to lose
Speaker 3: the sun is going to come up, and you have
Speaker 3: to deliver the monologue with one hundred and fifty crew
Speaker 3: members standing around, and you have to run into a
Speaker 3: room and hit that little piece of red tape on
Speaker 3: the floor and spill your guts in a monologue of
Speaker 3: sadness and upset. I don't give a shit who your
Speaker 3: parents are. Either you can do it or you can't.
Speaker 3: Like it's there is if there's an advantage because of
Speaker 3: a sort of a drast off of someone's fame, then okay, great,
Speaker 3: I've not ever run from it or hit or hit
Speaker 3: from it. I'm proud of my parents. I loved my parents.
Speaker 3: But the truth of the matter is the work you
Speaker 3: do as an actor, you can only do it if
Speaker 3: you can do it, and if you can't do it, it's
Speaker 3: really clear, and then you don't get to do it again.
Speaker 3: And that's just it. So I am I am, you know,
Speaker 3: grateful for it. Whatever I think it's, it's you know,
Speaker 3: I've been doing this, as I said, since I was
Speaker 3: nineteen and I am now sixty five, and therefore whatever
Speaker 3: the math is, I've been doing it a long time.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's the news thing what I wanted to
Speaker 3: tell you because it based it's literally it's germane to
Speaker 3: what we were talking about, which is, how do you
Speaker 3: find yourself here at sixty five in this moment, like
Speaker 3: in this moment, like whatever is going on in the world,
Speaker 3: which is awful in this moment? Work wise how to?
Speaker 3: And there is a book and I talk about it
Speaker 3: all the time, and either the author of the book
Speaker 3: hates me or I've helped her sell a lot of books.
Speaker 3: Her name is Mauritia Pessel, and she wrote a book
Speaker 3: called Special Topics in Calamity Physics. It's a novel. It's
Speaker 3: an history novel about a father and a daughter. By
Speaker 3: the way, Kevin Bacon and I don't think they've made
Speaker 3: it into a movie. And it's a terrific book. But
Speaker 3: in the middle of the book she talks about, you know,
Speaker 3: the way we think our lives are supposed to progress.
Speaker 3: It's basically, for your parents, how much money did they have,
Speaker 3: Where did you go to school, what was your first job,
Speaker 3: what was your starting salary? And those are what to
Speaker 3: term in your life. And here's what she says that
Speaker 3: really changed my life when I read it. She says, quote,
Speaker 3: life hinges on a couple seconds you never see coming,
Speaker 3: and what you do in those seconds determines everything from
Speaker 3: then on and you won't know what you're going to
Speaker 3: do until you're there. That, Kevin making is my life because,
Speaker 3: as you know, I saw Chris's picture in the magazine
Speaker 3: said I'm going to marry him. Married him four months
Speaker 3: later after reaching out to his agent and him not
Speaker 3: calling me and running into him at a restaurant and
Speaker 3: he randomly sort of waved and called me and we
Speaker 3: got married four months later, thirty nine years ago. All
Speaker 3: but all of my work, all of it, and there
Speaker 3: are those hinge moments, those pivots where and we could
Speaker 3: say it about every thing in our lives is sliding doors.
Speaker 3: You know what, Life hinges on things you don't see coming.
Speaker 3: So you have to just stay open. It goes back
Speaker 3: to the point of being open, because if you're closed
Speaker 3: and you're calculated and you think you can control life,
Speaker 3: you cannot. And so the beauty for me at my
Speaker 3: age is I'm sober and I've been doing this a
Speaker 3: long time, and that quote came into my head a
Speaker 3: long time ago, and because of it, I am now
Speaker 3: open to whatever shows up. And by the way, awful
Speaker 3: things have shown up.
Speaker 2: In case those couple of seconds hit you. Is is
Speaker 2: a theory that it continues that multiple This happens multiple times.
Speaker 2: If you're if you're if you're open and ready for it.
Speaker 3: And that's to me, the beautyful beauty of being an
Speaker 3: artist who is her own art tool. So as an artist,
Speaker 3: I am just always at the ready. My senses are
Speaker 3: always firing.
Speaker 2: Now you mentioned your company, are you also directing? I
Speaker 2: have you directed before? I'm forget.
Speaker 3: I have I directed TV shows that I have been in,
Speaker 3: because when you're in the TV show and then you
Speaker 3: go can I direct one? You know it's it's something
Speaker 3: I would like to do. I'm much more interested actually
Speaker 3: in producing things, and I'm now just starting to become
Speaker 3: a producer at sixty five. So, for instance, my little
Speaker 3: company has a company with Jason Blum, who does Blumhouse,
Speaker 3: and we bought the Patricia Cornwell books called which are
Speaker 3: with the main character Case Scarpetta. There are a bunch
Speaker 3: of wonderful books with her as the center character. And
Speaker 3: Nicole Kidman is going to do it. We're doing it
Speaker 3: for Amazon. She's going to play Case Scarpetta. I'm going
Speaker 3: to play her sister. That's something I'm producing.
Speaker 1: Through my own company, Fantastic.
Speaker 3: There's a movie that I'm going to produce which I
Speaker 3: can't talk about, even though I found out yesterday really
Speaker 3: good news. I can't talk about it, but I will
Speaker 3: be able to talk about it. That's a big movie
Speaker 3: about big ideas that it's going to be something that I.
Speaker 1: Get to produce Fantastic.
Speaker 3: At the same time, the most important thing, and I
Speaker 3: promise you it's not my segue because before we get
Speaker 3: to Sarah, I want to talk to you for a
Speaker 3: second about my hand in yours because it's different from
Speaker 3: a charitable standpoint than Sarah's organization Free Mom Hugs, which
Speaker 3: I very much want to lean into.
Speaker 1: But that's what we're here for. Tell us about my
Speaker 1: hand in yours, all right.
Speaker 3: So, in the same way, right before COVID, right before COVID,
Speaker 3: I didn't want to just give money to charity. I
Speaker 3: wanted to feel a stronger connection to it. And I
Speaker 3: collect little all objects from a sculptor named Anne Ricketts.
Speaker 3: These are little little bronze feet, and I send them
Speaker 3: to friends of mine and I say, be where your
Speaker 3: feet are. And I called her and I said, I
Speaker 3: would like to commission you to create a sculpture of
Speaker 3: two hands holding whenever I sign off a letter. Kevin,
Speaker 3: if God forbid one of your goats passed away and
Speaker 3: I heard about it, I would have written you a
Speaker 3: letter and said, dear Kevin and Kia stop making love
Speaker 3: in the barn. You freaked out your bat and I'm
Speaker 3: so sorry that it happened. Chris and I send you
Speaker 3: our best. And I would have written to you my
Speaker 3: hand in Yours Jamie, it's just a phrase I've used
Speaker 3: for a long time to say I may not be
Speaker 3: with you in this moment, but I want you to
Speaker 3: feel what it would feel like to have my hand
Speaker 3: holding yours. And so I went to Anne Ricketts and
Speaker 3: I said, will you make a small sculpture of two
Speaker 3: hands holding that you can hold in your hand. It
Speaker 3: has a beautiful weight to it, and I said, I
Speaker 3: would like to make them, and I'm going to sell
Speaker 3: them on Instagram and I'm going to give all the
Speaker 3: money to Children's Hospital ofs Angeles. And then, very quickly,
Speaker 3: as you know in this world, when I hired a
Speaker 3: man named Oliver Marler to help me set up a
Speaker 3: website to sell them, because he you know, Instagram is fun,
Speaker 3: but a website is better. He said to me, how
Speaker 3: many did you order? And I said, ah, I ordered
Speaker 3: one hundred. Can you imagine? He said, you'll sell those
Speaker 3: in a day? I said, oh, off, Oliver, really, he said, Jamie,
Speaker 3: I do this, this is what I do. You're going
Speaker 3: to give all the money to Children's Hospital. You'll sell
Speaker 3: them in a day. And we did. And he said
Speaker 3: you're going to need more. And so what happened is
Speaker 3: there's a company called My Hand in Yours and it
Speaker 3: offers comfort items and celebration items to people in times
Speaker 3: of great happiness and great sorrow. And we donate one
Speaker 3: hundred percent of all proceeds to Children's Hospital Los Angeles.
Speaker 3: And that now is I have a business. I run
Speaker 3: a cottage industry in the house next door, which is
Speaker 3: our business office. And so besides the movie stuff that
Speaker 3: I get to do, this is a This was two
Speaker 3: years that we launched August fourth of twenty twenty, right
Speaker 3: when COVID was claiming the lives of so many people,
Speaker 3: and it just blossomed. So I one hundred percent believed
Speaker 3: that the only purpose of fame is to shine the
Speaker 3: fame light that comes on us, flip it and Missy
Speaker 3: Elliott that flip it and reverse it and shine it
Speaker 3: on something other than you, because God knows we get
Speaker 3: enough tension. So My Hand in Yours is my version
Speaker 3: of that. But when you asked me if I was
Speaker 3: going to direct things, here's the reason I'm going to
Speaker 3: tell you. I was in Idaho, where we have a barn,
Speaker 3: but we don't make love in it the way and
Speaker 3: cure it. And I read a story about a woman
Speaker 3: in Oklahoma who put up a Facebook post that said,
Speaker 3: if you're getting married and you're a same sex couple
Speaker 3: and your biological parents don't support that union, I will
Speaker 3: show up for you as a stand in mom. And
Speaker 3: I remember I read the story and then I did
Speaker 3: what people do. I cold called her and dm'd her
Speaker 3: into Facebook, and it took her a minute to figure
Speaker 3: out that I wasn't a fake person. Sure, and I
Speaker 3: wrote to the woman whose name is Sarah Cunningham and
Speaker 3: basically said, this is fantastic what you're doing. And we
Speaker 3: became friends, and ultimately she had written a book. I
Speaker 3: ultimately bought the rights to the book to produce a
Speaker 3: movie that I was going to direct, and we were
Speaker 3: I was. I had an airplane ticket and crew gifts
Speaker 3: prepped to go and we were supposed to shoot in
Speaker 3: April of twenty twenty. Oh wow, okay, and COVID killed
Speaker 3: our movie. But since then, Sarah Cunningham has just expanded
Speaker 3: her reach through a company, and not a company, an
Speaker 3: organization that she founded an runs called Free Mom Hugs.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a perfect I'm a really good you are
Speaker 1: you are? I can? I can?
Speaker 2: I can go make a sandwich Sarah Cunningham please join
Speaker 2: us here on the podcast.
Speaker 3: And when you meet Sarah, you're gonna go, oh my god,
Speaker 3: you guys are twins. And we are away. I'm growing
Speaker 3: my hair for a month. I noticed many times most
Speaker 3: of my life my hair looks exactly like Sarah Cunningham's.
Speaker 1: I think, I think we're all on the same. We
Speaker 1: also got the same I.
Speaker 3: Usually have very short I love it.
Speaker 4: I noticed it, and it's just stunning. It's so attractive.
Speaker 4: Of course, you look good at a potatoes.
Speaker 1: Come on, Sarah, thank you so much. How are you doing.
Speaker 4: I'm doing so well. You know, I've been in in
Speaker 4: the background here listening and I'm just crying. And you
Speaker 4: see my love for Jamie because she's always pointing to
Speaker 4: something good. I've known her for a short amount of time,
Speaker 4: but my goodness, how she has just changed my life
Speaker 4: the trajectory and like she shared about how life comes
Speaker 4: at you and unexpectedly will change the direction of everything.
Speaker 4: So I wouldn't be here today without without Jamie.
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of which, tell us your story and I'm curious,
Speaker 2: you know, I want to hear how how how you
Speaker 2: started this and and what's.
Speaker 3: It's an amazing story.
Speaker 1: Kevin, are you did you grow up in Oklahoma?
Speaker 4: Yes, born and raised. There was a time I would
Speaker 4: beg my mother not to let me be buried in Oklahoma.
Speaker 4: But now I couldn't imagine living anywhere else. And my
Speaker 4: husband and I met young and we have two children together,
Speaker 4: and our youngest son, Parker, is gay, and he's the
Speaker 4: reason why we're here today. I raised very conservatively evangelical,
Speaker 4: you know the story. And when Parker tried to have
Speaker 4: those conversations with me, I didn't take the news very well.
Speaker 4: I behaved badly.
Speaker 1: I show him was when he started talking to you
Speaker 1: about this.
Speaker 4: I remember in grade school him trying to have the
Speaker 4: conversation at the kitchen sink. But I just thought it
Speaker 4: was a phase. I just I didn't allow the conversation
Speaker 4: or the vocabulary to have it. And because I thought
Speaker 4: it was just a phase, or I thought maybe something
Speaker 4: bad had to happen to him to make him gay.
Speaker 4: But it wasn't until he met someone at the age
Speaker 4: of twenty one and he said, Mom, I met someone
Speaker 4: and I need you to be okay about it, and
Speaker 4: I wasn't. It was a journey from the church to
Speaker 4: the pride parade without losing my faith or my son.
Speaker 4: But I met this beautiful, spirit filled community and I
Speaker 4: fell in love. But I was hearing their stories about
Speaker 4: how they had been alienated from their church homes, from
Speaker 4: their families, from many parts of society. I was learning
Speaker 4: about laws that affect families like mine, and I was
Speaker 4: accountable to those things. So in two thousand and fourteen,
Speaker 4: I went and had my first real intentional interaction with
Speaker 4: the gay community at the Oklahoma City Pride Festival.
Speaker 2: So what was it that got you from the kitchen sink,
Speaker 2: or the church, or wherever you happen to be to
Speaker 2: take those steps to walk over to a pride parade.
Speaker 2: It just seems like a pretty pretty long long journey.
Speaker 4: It was a journey, like I said, from the church
Speaker 4: to the Pride parade. But hearing their stories and so
Speaker 4: in twenty fifteen, I made a homemade button and with
Speaker 4: anyone who made eye contact with me, I would say,
Speaker 4: could I offer you a free mom hug or a
Speaker 4: high five? And the first hug I gave went to
Speaker 4: a beautiful young girl who said it had been four
Speaker 4: years since she had a hug from her mother because
Speaker 4: she's a lesbian and from that experience, we started the
Speaker 4: nonprofit Free Mom Hugs and now we have actors in
Speaker 4: every state of moms, dads, friends and allies who show
Speaker 4: up at Pride festivals, checking second chance proms. We have
Speaker 4: transgender Valentine's banquets, National Pride rights, whatever we can do
Speaker 4: to help change the social norm. And lastly, our mission
Speaker 4: is to empower the world to celebrate the lgbtq IA
Speaker 4: plus community through visibility, education and conversation, because those are
Speaker 4: the things that changed my understanding of this beautiful community
Speaker 4: and of what a gift they are to the world.
Speaker 4: And I'm just so thankful that I'm on this side
Speaker 4: of our story. This book that Jimmy was talking about
Speaker 4: so beautifully is self published, but it's our story. I'm
Speaker 4: not a scholar or theologian. It's just how we got
Speaker 4: through it. And what I hear from you. I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: I'm rambling you.
Speaker 2: No, no, you're not at all, not at all, No, No,
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering, to the extent that you're comfortable sharing it.
Speaker 2: Did you feel like it was a slow process? Was
Speaker 2: it a was it a an aha moment? What?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 2: How did your how did the rest of your family
Speaker 2: react to Parker has a brother or a sister.
Speaker 4: Yes, two children. Parker's the youngest, Travis is the oldest Travis.
Speaker 1: That's my son's name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and and uh uh and your husband were they supportive?
Speaker 1: Were they confused? What was just to give me a
Speaker 1: little more detailed was long?
Speaker 4: But thankfully, uh, my husband is affirming. He has cousins
Speaker 4: who are on the LGBTPU skew uh spectrum, and so
Speaker 4: he was always more affirming. I was more conservative than
Speaker 4: my husband, thankfully, but I made it. I made life
Speaker 4: pretty hard around here, and so it was a process.
Speaker 4: It didn't happen overnight, but there were pivotal moments of
Speaker 4: seeing other people celebrate my son when I didn't know
Speaker 4: if I should, could or would. Seeing him happy and
Speaker 4: healthy and live authentically, and him you know, saying Mom,
Speaker 4: I've been your son for twenty one years. I need
Speaker 4: you to be my mom now will kind of make
Speaker 4: you in check. But it was seeing other people accept
Speaker 4: him when I was just trying to figure that out.
Speaker 4: But I needed it was faith based that was keeping me.
Speaker 4: That the power of fear and ignorance kept me in
Speaker 4: that place, but it was the power of love and
Speaker 4: education and seeing moms like Jamie, you know, she's a
Speaker 4: mama bear. And when she says that they watched in
Speaker 4: Pride and wonder as Ruby, you know, became her authentic self.
Speaker 4: That it was hearing things like that who just really
Speaker 4: changed my understanding and.
Speaker 2: Talk to me about the challenges of being I'm assuming
Speaker 2: that the community that where you lived and worshiped was a,
Speaker 2: you know, a pretty conservative community. What's it like in
Speaker 2: terms of the pushback? And I mean, I'm amazed at
Speaker 2: the courage that it takes to make that kind of
Speaker 2: decision when when the you know, the world surrounding you
Speaker 2: is kind of feeling in.
Speaker 4: A different way devastating. It was devastating, but you know,
Speaker 4: having this time span, you know, I went through being
Speaker 4: devastated to cynical, to bitter, to angry to understanding. We
Speaker 4: didn't know how to minister to each other. Nobody knew
Speaker 4: how to have this conversation because we didn't have you know,
Speaker 4: we didn't have any out people at our church. We
Speaker 4: didn't have same sex couples getting married and celebrated. We
Speaker 4: just did not know how to minister to each other.
Speaker 4: So that's what I believe the platform of Free Mom
Speaker 4: hugs allows a place for people to show up and
Speaker 4: do something. And it's a beautiful thing to be a
Speaker 4: part of. Because when we can pour into families like mine,
Speaker 4: you see that fruit. You say, the love is God,
Speaker 4: is love, and love is God, and the fruit of
Speaker 4: the Spirit is love, and the fruit of the spirit
Speaker 4: is lasting and empowering. And when we can pour into families,
Speaker 4: that's where the fruit comes from. And you'll know them
Speaker 4: by their fruit.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So, and you can see, Kevin, how much of a
Speaker 3: of a a gospel according to Sarah, and how how
Speaker 3: powerful she is as a communicator. So you can imagine
Speaker 3: Sarah has traveled all over the country and talks to
Speaker 3: people who were hidden behind the rigidity of their faith.
Speaker 3: And look at this woman and look at the way
Speaker 3: she communicates about love and family and and it just
Speaker 3: radiates from her. It's it's it's extraor she's an extraordinary
Speaker 3: person who, as as she has said, was was kept
Speaker 3: in the closet of her own limits of love and
Speaker 3: expand until it was her child who opened the door
Speaker 3: and said, I want you to be my mom. And
Speaker 3: she literally had to choose her church or her child,
Speaker 3: and she chose the child and it's shaped the world.
Speaker 5: If you are inspired by today's episode, please join us
Speaker 5: in supporting six degrees dot org by texting the word
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Speaker 5: to learn more.
Speaker 2: You know, Jamie, I want to ask you something, and
Speaker 2: then I also want to ask you the same thing zero,
Speaker 2: which is that.
Speaker 1: I think that.
Speaker 2: You both you both have this, uh, this feeling of
Speaker 2: compassion for other people, and I'm always interested where you
Speaker 2: think that comes from, because it's not an obvious thing
Speaker 2: to say, well, I saw a need or I saw something,
Speaker 2: or I you know. I mean, you said, Jamie that
Speaker 2: you you're at a point in your life where you
Speaker 2: feel like, you know, famous people need to give back.
Speaker 2: But I think that there's there's something there that is
Speaker 2: inherent in you that.
Speaker 1: Came from something.
Speaker 2: And I'm just wondering if, if if you have either
Speaker 2: one of you have ideas about what that is is
Speaker 2: that your parents is in a moment. I've spoken to
Speaker 2: people on the podcast that have had you know, a
Speaker 2: tragedy or a or a you know, something you know
Speaker 2: powerful happened to them a voice.
Speaker 1: Do you have any thoughts about that?
Speaker 2: Because the thing is is that you can do quietly
Speaker 2: do good work which is fantastic, you know, or like you, Sarah,
Speaker 2: you can make your voice heard and take the risks
Speaker 2: and the same thing with you, Jamie, take the risks
Speaker 2: of being despised, take the risks of the blowback, you know,
Speaker 2: put yourself out there on the line to say, hey,
Speaker 2: I want to I want to be clear about something
Speaker 2: that I feel strongly about.
Speaker 3: So my mother was a movie star, as we've talked
Speaker 3: Nepo baby that I am, and she was involved with
Speaker 3: a group of Hollywood wives really called Share. It's a
Speaker 3: group in California called Share. The acronym was Share Happily
Speaker 3: and reap endlessly. And what it was was that they
Speaker 3: were a group of powerful women who understood that their husbands,
Speaker 3: many of whom were performers, had a lot of power
Speaker 3: and show business. So what they would do is they
Speaker 3: put on a show every year. They still do it.
Speaker 3: The Share organization still does it, and this group of
Speaker 3: women would put on a show. Their famous husbands would
Speaker 3: come and perform, Sammy Davis Junior, Dean Martin, and once
Speaker 3: in a while one of the members of the group
Speaker 3: was a woman and a movie star herself my mother,
Speaker 3: And they would do that every May. In my entire childhood,
Speaker 3: my mother would rehearse for their Share show every May,
Speaker 3: and I watched them rehearse, and as a child, I
Speaker 3: would go. So I watched my mother annually come together
Speaker 3: with a group of people and raise a lot of
Speaker 3: money for, by the way, the Exceptional Children's Foundation, which
Speaker 3: is what they put their money toward, which was children
Speaker 3: with special needs. So that was sort of what I
Speaker 3: was raised around. And then my mother. Then my mother
Speaker 3: was friends with Eunice Kennedy Schreiber, an extraordinary woman, powerful
Speaker 3: change agent, and she started the Special Olympics and she
Speaker 3: would invite celebrities like your podcast to come, but you know,
Speaker 3: to come and participate in Special Olympics. And I went
Speaker 3: with my mother one year. And after I went the
Speaker 3: first year, I called Unice Kennedy Schreiver. I was fifteen
Speaker 3: or sixteen or somewhere, and I said to her. You know,
Speaker 3: I think we got Polaroid to donate cameras we could
Speaker 3: take pictures of the celebrities with the athletes and then
Speaker 3: they could take them home. And so for a couple
Speaker 3: of years I did that at the Special Olympics.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: And then I became an actor, and then she called
Speaker 3: me one day and said, Jamie, I think you need
Speaker 3: to be in the pictures this year, and so like
Speaker 3: right away, like early on, I saw the power of
Speaker 3: how celebrity world can affect other things other than show business. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and then it was just a course of those things
Speaker 3: happening that then, you know, working with Children's Hospital of
Speaker 3: s Angeles as their advocate, literally suiting up and showing
Speaker 3: up and saying what do you need? I will do
Speaker 3: whatever you need, and then starting my hand in yours.
Speaker 3: So for me, the trajectory was really watching my mother
Speaker 3: do it. Okay, the value that having like spame again,
Speaker 3: but taking all the energy of fame and throwing it
Speaker 3: towards something be it animal rights, being human rights, children,
Speaker 3: whatever it is, and then and then come up with
Speaker 3: a way to monetize it and make it a truly
Speaker 3: philanthropic organization. That would be my background.
Speaker 2: Always comes back to the moms, right, Sarah always comes
Speaker 2: back to the.
Speaker 3: Moms, always comes back to moms.
Speaker 4: We have to do everything.
Speaker 2: And Sarah, you know, I mean you you've taken this organization.
Speaker 2: I mean you you did this one act of I
Speaker 2: don't even know what you know, what to call it,
Speaker 2: just you know, crossing the divide, you know, and and
Speaker 2: you know, showing compassion and grace towards your son and
Speaker 2: towards to uh, you know, to other people as well.
Speaker 2: But now you've taken it and you continue to, you know,
Speaker 2: keep this thing going.
Speaker 1: What what are what? What is it? What happens on a.
Speaker 2: Day to day basis with the organization? And and how
Speaker 2: can people help and get involved?
Speaker 3: Thank you?
Speaker 4: I tell you the main thing And it did start
Speaker 4: with my mother. We had My mother was a single mother.
Speaker 4: My father passed young five children, and so our house
Speaker 4: was open to the whole neighborhood. And so I grew
Speaker 4: up with a lot of that. But I'm just doing
Speaker 4: things that I wish someone would have done when I
Speaker 4: was trying to figure things out. Number one, those are
Speaker 4: the things that we're doing through visibility, education and conversation.
Speaker 4: And secondly, is that at the forefront of everything that
Speaker 4: we do at Free Mom Hugs are the horror stories
Speaker 4: of conversion therapy in thirty states. My son, Jamie's daughter
Speaker 4: could be denied housing, healthcare, even thrown out of a
Speaker 4: public space because of how they identify. That's the reality
Speaker 4: of the LGBTQ plus community and it's at the forefront
Speaker 4: of everything that we do to change the social norm,
Speaker 4: to raise awareness and to celebrate this community. So we're
Speaker 4: always looking for ways. But it may look like a
Speaker 4: National Pride ride. We just had in September our very
Speaker 4: first Free Mom Hugs conference, which Jimmie was a part of.
Speaker 4: But we had expected maybe one hundred and fifty people,
Speaker 4: but we got four hundred people, plus the mayor of
Speaker 4: Oklahoma to show up. And Oklahoma's very conservative, we've got pockets.
Speaker 4: But I think what makes us so successful is that
Speaker 4: it's love. It's all about educating and love and those
Speaker 4: are the things that will change the world around us.
Speaker 4: And add to that, once you see it in this arena,
Speaker 4: then you see it everywhere. And when I say it,
Speaker 4: I mean the discrimination, the challenges that all minority space.
Speaker 4: But this happens to be my lane. But once you
Speaker 4: see it here you see it everywhere, so I'm accountable
Speaker 4: to what I know. Ultimately, that's it.
Speaker 3: The other thing I wanted to say, Kevin is that
Speaker 3: And we haven't really said this to each other, Sarah,
Speaker 3: but I guarantee you without a doubt that your gorgeous
Speaker 3: openness with Parker impacted my openness with Ruby when out
Speaker 3: of the blue, Ruby informed my husband and I that
Speaker 3: they were trans that we met because I saw that
Speaker 3: act of generosity on Facebook and then stalked you, not
Speaker 3: having any idea that I would need your example in
Speaker 3: my own life. I did not come to you because
Speaker 3: I had an inkling that that was going to be
Speaker 3: a conversation in my kitchen, and I went to you
Speaker 3: because of your open bravery and saying I made a mistake,
Speaker 3: this is wrong. Here's who I am. I'm here for you.
Speaker 3: People like that gave an example for me that I
Speaker 3: hadn't put together until this weird little zoom box thing.
Speaker 3: Because that's the truth that when that moment, when life
Speaker 3: hinged on a couple seconds, I didn't see coming that.
Speaker 3: In those seconds, the example that I had was lead
Speaker 3: with love, ask questions, open your arms and your heart,
Speaker 3: period And that's what happened, and it's because of you.
Speaker 4: Thank you seeing me, Thank you.
Speaker 3: We can all go home now.
Speaker 1: Wow.
Speaker 3: But I'm telling you it's it's it didn't. It didn't
Speaker 3: connect the dot to me until this second where it's like,
Speaker 3: well duh, because you led by example and I was
Speaker 3: attracted to it without even knowing. I was attracted to
Speaker 3: it for the reasons that I'm now attracted to it.
Speaker 1: Thank you amazing.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's is exactly what we're trying to do
Speaker 2: here on the spot, is to get these these kinds
Speaker 2: of moments. And you know, I I admire you both
Speaker 2: so much for you know, your compassion and your understanding
Speaker 2: and your courage and your voice and your love. It's
Speaker 2: it's it's it's beautiful, inspiring.
Speaker 4: And you and I saw you on the Kelly Kark
Speaker 4: Clarkson Show and you just have a need and you say,
Speaker 4: what can I do? What can I do? What should
Speaker 4: I do? And you saw a need and you had
Speaker 4: an idea and you did it and it works. So
Speaker 4: I mean, this is what it's all about. It's not
Speaker 4: a competition. It's about serving each other and helping each other.
Speaker 4: And if you don't have it, then you find someone
Speaker 4: who does so well done.
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. Okay, what's the what's the website?
Speaker 4: Free moom hugs dot org.
Speaker 2: Dot com, My hand in yours dot com. These are
Speaker 2: two fantastic, fantastic organizations that need your help, your interest.
Speaker 1: Check them out.
Speaker 4: Please, I say something, Kevin, I'm sorry, sure can freemomhuds
Speaker 4: dot org. You can find your state chapter, get plugged in.
Speaker 4: If it's just showing up at Pride Festival. Soon you'll
Speaker 4: be helping with the clothing closet or trans Valentine's Bank,
Speaker 4: but you can find the resources. If you are a parent,
Speaker 4: a guardian, know someone who's going through this journey, there
Speaker 4: are resources available at our website. And of course we're
Speaker 4: a nonprofit. We all need funding, so.
Speaker 3: Do what you can.
Speaker 4: I say, if you can, pray for us, pray for us,
Speaker 4: if you can show up, show up, if you can give,
Speaker 4: give beautiful.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love you both so much.
Speaker 2: Hey, guys, thanks for listening to another episode of six
Speaker 2: Degrees with Kevin Bacon.
Speaker 1: If you want to.
Speaker 2: Learn more about Free mom Hugs to momhugs dot org,
Speaker 2: you can find all the links in our show notes,
Speaker 2: and if you like what you hear, make sure you
Speaker 2: subscribe to the show, tune into the rest of our episodes.
Speaker 2: You can find six Degrees with Kevin Bigan on iHeartRadio,
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.