1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: All the media. 2 00:00:06,440 --> 00:00:09,479 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome. Take it happen here. I'm Andrew Sage, 3 00:00:09,520 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: your host, and I'm joined by James again. 4 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 3: Excited to be here again. I enjoyed the last episode. 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 2: Yes, another host of a canappen near. There are two 6 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:27,280 Speaker 2: of us, So James's American British or British American kind 7 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 2: of and how we want to order that? And I'm Trinidadian. 8 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 2: As you may or may not be able to tell, 9 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 2: but in Trinidad there are actually a lot of Grenadians 10 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 2: and descendants of Grenadians. Between our islands has been a 11 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: lot of population exchange, mostly in one direction. But we're 12 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 2: here to talk about a notable point in the history 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: for my neighbor in Ireland, Grenada. If you missed part one, 14 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: you should go and give it a listen. The gist 15 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: is that, after drawn out efforts to gain independent nuns, 16 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 2: Grenada finally did so in nineteen seventy four, but unfortunately 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: under the rule of Eric Gary, an oppressive fixture of 18 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 2: politics that the people want it out. The underdog, the 19 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 2: New Jewel Movement led by Maurice Bishop, pulled off a 20 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 2: blood less coup while Gary was at a un meeting 21 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 2: in New York, and thus the People's Revolutionary Government was formed, 22 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 2: led by Prime Minister Marie Bishop. The manaches stay in 23 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 2: power from nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty three. So 24 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: today we're talking about what they did in that time 25 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 2: and what happened next, including the infamous US invasion that 26 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: is so often a footnote of history and its aftermath 27 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 2: on the people of Grenada that lasts up to this day. 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 2: Once again, the research for this episode leans on Grenada 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 2: Revolution and invasion by Pati Lewis at Al along with 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:59,800 Speaker 2: None Should Escape by Joseph Edwards aka fundly so Fresh 31 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: the victory of the New Jewel movement. The temperature of 32 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 2: the populace was varied but excited. You had people who 33 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 2: had genuine revolutionary aspirations, people who were passionately anti imperialists, 34 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 2: and then the people who just wanted better health care 35 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 2: and education and didn't really care where who it came from. 36 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 2: And on that note, I would say that it's something 37 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: that often flies under the radar or escapes awareness in 38 00:02:25,440 --> 00:02:30,799 Speaker 2: the discourse because the most passionate, the most invested, the 39 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 2: most prominent voices all that we tend to hear the 40 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 2: vast majority of people pretty much go with the flow. 41 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,080 Speaker 2: You know, they keep their heads down, their focus tends 42 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 2: to be on their immediate needs, their immediate interests. And 43 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: you have the idea logues in every camp, but of 44 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: every persuasion who are aiming to push the country in 45 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: a particular direction. But at least at this point in time, 46 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 2: there was an ambivalence towards the how, the political how 47 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,200 Speaker 2: much of the population. They just needed to see the results. 48 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 2: And for a lot of people in the present day, 49 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: the change, the revolution, or whatever you want to call it, 50 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 2: isn't it going to come from an ideological transformation, well 51 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: worded argument or arrangement of you know, prose. It's going 52 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:31,640 Speaker 2: to come from a lived experience where their life has 53 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: improved in some way, in some form of fashion, by action, 54 00:03:35,840 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 2: by a project that actually puts the change into practice. 55 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 2: And so that's really what the New Dual Movement had 56 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 2: been about from the beginning, being part of the community, 57 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 2: being part of the people taking part in you know, 58 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: supporting them, which is why they had the popular mandate. 59 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 2: And then once they got into power, a lot of 60 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: their efforts were focused on indeed trying to actually put 61 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 2: into place and alternatives for all the flaws that it 62 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 2: may have had, and get to that shortly, and that 63 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 2: they did. You know, they organized the Center for Popular Education, 64 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: They organized teacher training, sought to make secondary schools and 65 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 2: colleges more accessible to people. They introduced maternity leave for women, yes, 66 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:26,120 Speaker 2: although notably party members who were women were pressured to 67 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:31,200 Speaker 2: come back to work maybe after having children. So again 68 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 2: we'll get to those flaws. There was still inequality in 69 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:38,760 Speaker 2: pay between men and women, but the Usual Movement did 70 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 2: make efforts to mandate equal pay and to engage in 71 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: some changes toward addressing the inequality between men and women 72 00:04:49,400 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 2: in the country. However, a revolution was still needed within 73 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 2: the revolution, as it has tended to be across these revolutions, 74 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: you know, across these years Usual stuff, women were still 75 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: doing the most of the housework, and both sexes were 76 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 2: expected to take part in political engagement. So you had 77 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 2: women in the party in the Udual movement, but it 78 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 2: was a sort of an expectation of equality in some respects, 79 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,279 Speaker 2: like yeah, come out to work even though you just 80 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 2: had children, because everybody else is coming on to work. 81 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 3: Yeah. 82 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: And yet it was like, oh, yeah, I can keep 83 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 2: on doing the housework. We're not gonna take on hour 84 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 2: load there. 85 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: Yep, that's funny. I finished my book recently. But they 86 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 3: have a chapter on gender, and there's just a communist 87 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 3: militant in Spain who was fighting at the front line. 88 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 3: But also they were saddled with that double burden, right 89 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 3: because women were expected to be the ones amongst, especially 90 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 3: amongst the communists, who cooked and cleaned in addition to fighting. 91 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 3: But she has this famous line where she says, I 92 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 3: didn't join the military to die with a dish cloth. 93 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: In my hand. 94 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 3: Which that's great. Yeah, it's a good one. I like 95 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 3: it a lot. 96 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, But flaws with engaging with gender aside. There will, 97 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,599 Speaker 2: of course, other things the utual movement was doing that 98 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: was positive. You know, they encouraged agricultural diversification and local 99 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: food production, moving away from that sort of exclusive or 100 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 2: ne exclusive dependence on nutnet production that had defined the 101 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 2: colonial period. You know, they got rid of the old 102 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 2: Westminster style parliamentary system in favor of a one party 103 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 2: system with some elements of mass democracy. Now the degree 104 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 2: to which that democracy actually empowered people is debatable, but 105 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 2: there were, you know, efforts on the record. You know, 106 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: they organized public meetings to discuss the national budget. They 107 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: set up workers and youth and women's and farmers organizations, 108 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: and unfortunately, even though Bishop was influenced by c LR James, 109 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 2: he continued to pursue the sort of hierarchical leadership common 110 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: in Caribbean politics. And so even with these alternative organizations, 111 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: you had that kind of hierarchy. But I think that 112 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: is to be expected from any movement besides anarchism. Yeah, 113 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: so I can't say I'm surprised. They closed the independent 114 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 2: newspaper Torchlights after an article highlighting erastopian protest against lack 115 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 2: of representation in government. So there were efforts to ensure 116 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:38,560 Speaker 2: that Greator moved towards secularism, but freedom of the press 117 00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 2: was not something that was particularly high in the priorities, 118 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 2: and there were still prejudices against religious groups and movements 119 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 2: like the Rastaferians that had yet to be addressed. You know, 120 00:07:55,080 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 2: these things aren't dealt with overnight. But I think when 121 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: all you have is a hammer, everything can sort of 122 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 2: look like a nail. Yeah, they didn't do anything too 123 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 2: drastic in the economics. Spe for the most part, they 124 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 2: left people's private businesses alone. They implemented some state enterprises, 125 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:21,360 Speaker 2: and they implemented some cooperative enterprises, so a fairly standard 126 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 2: mixed economy, a mixed economy that interverean extents be found 127 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: throughout the Caribbean, whether they had a revolution or not. 128 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: But they did establish cooperative and friendly relations with Cuba, 129 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 2: which was a real thorn on the side of the 130 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: United States. 131 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, he didn't like them. 132 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: And now this is I would say from nineteen seventy 133 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 2: nine to nineteen eighty so their first two years in power, 134 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 2: people were nervsited, you know, they were hopeful of the 135 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 2: genuine declonization and positive change taking place. But the excitement 136 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 2: part of the NEUVA site started to die down. By 137 00:09:02,480 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty one. The People's Revolutionary Government PRG became increasingly 138 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: militaristic as time went on. They organized militias and armed people. 139 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: They were essentially preparing for a Geary counter coup, but 140 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 2: also potential Cie involvement. The police were replaced with military personnel. 141 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,319 Speaker 2: And I think this is the trap that a lot 142 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: of these projects end up falling into. This concern about 143 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 2: the enemy within and the enemy without leads these revolutionaries 144 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 2: to cannibalize themselves, you know. The revolutionary potential and excitemes 145 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: GE's curtailed because there's so much fail dominating that some 146 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 2: enemy is going to attack, some violence is going to 147 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 2: take place that they need to prepare for, and so 148 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: you over your militarize, your militarize, and you stare the 149 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: course of the project away from its original intentions to 150 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 2: a point where it's not even recognizable to the people 151 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 2: who initiated it. Yeah, you know, I'm not saying that 152 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 2: they weren't right to be wary of US intervention. History 153 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: has demonstrated as much. But it was something that the 154 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: people of the country were becoming increasingly concerned about because 155 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 2: it's a small country, and it's uncommon, you know, it's 156 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: it's strange as unusual. It's unnerving to see militia's marching 157 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 2: on your street. Now, the Mutual movement was starting to 158 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 2: become more focused on establishing a vanguard corps, the more 159 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: they oriented themselves toward Marxism lending as well. So, like 160 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 2: I mentioned before, they were making this shift away from 161 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 2: the sort of popular mass democracy that people like see 162 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,720 Speaker 2: Lar James was talking about. The more they read and 163 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 2: they studied the works of Marxism lenders and there were 164 00:10:57,840 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 2: people within the party who became more and more convinced. Again, 165 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 2: remember the end positions of power this point in time. 166 00:11:04,920 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 2: So you're in positions of power, and you're reading theoretical 167 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 2: justifications for why you need to be in power. You 168 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: know that you will stand by those theoretical justifications because 169 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 2: it lines up with your interests, your self interests to 170 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: you know, further your position of power, and the continuation 171 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,719 Speaker 2: of your role as an authority, as a leader. And 172 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:32,400 Speaker 2: so this vanguard call that they were pursuing, it ended 173 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 2: up creating a hierarchy of in group and out group. 174 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 2: You had the people who were in the vanguard, the 175 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: people who were out of the vanguard, who didn't get picked, 176 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 2: who didn't make the cut, you know, who felt snubbed. 177 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 2: And this was facilities and it was fostering this an 178 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: air of secrecy that people in the country were beginning 179 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: to resent and lose trust in, because imagine you go 180 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 2: in from this sort of popular engagement with the people 181 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 2: as you, you know, take part in these efforts to 182 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 2: push Gary out of power. Then you have this sort 183 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 2: of secrecy, you have this sort of militarism. They're starting 184 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 2: to remind people a bit of the exact Geary government 185 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,720 Speaker 2: that they wanted out. When two major events took place 186 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty one. There was a bombing under the 187 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 2: stage of a rally that killed some utes, and there 188 00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:23,840 Speaker 2: was a car ambustion as well. Both of these incidents 189 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:29,240 Speaker 2: were blamed on counter revolutionaries in the country that famous buzzworth, 190 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 2: that famous catchphrase, that famous justification for any and every response. Yeah. 191 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,400 Speaker 2: So it further pushed the country and really the whole 192 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 2: society into this culture of suspicion and repression and also 193 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 2: resent month for the New Dual movement. The New Jeral 194 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: movement wasn't responsible for the bombans, but you can imagine 195 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,079 Speaker 2: people were probably saying when they were at the parlor 196 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,800 Speaker 2: by the grocery, you know, out by the bar down 197 00:12:56,840 --> 00:13:00,079 Speaker 2: the street, they're saying, you know, at least didn't have 198 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,960 Speaker 2: any bombings under Gary. You know, at least the didn't 199 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,000 Speaker 2: have these combitions under Gary. Gary wasn't nice, but we 200 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 2: didn't have terrorist attacks. And the sort of transparency and 201 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: engagement people were accustomed to were starting to evaporate. The 202 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 2: Neudual movement was starting to be seen by some as 203 00:13:21,160 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 2: a secret society. And if your society is already small, right, 204 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 2: just about one hundred thousand people. Yeah, having a secret 205 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 2: society within that small society where everybody knows everybody, that's 206 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 2: not good, especially when the revolution is so new, so nationed. 207 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,360 Speaker 2: You need people's trust and especially as well, because people 208 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 2: were not ideologically for Marxism Leninism, most of them, that is, 209 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: they were ideologically for Marxism Leniness and they were ideologically 210 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 2: nudual movement advocate. They just wanted Eric Gary out and 211 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 2: they wanted to improve once they're living conditions. They didn't 212 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 2: have a particular political ideology. They were committed too. And 213 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 2: in this time, you know, the Caribbean is part of 214 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: the rest of the world. The Cribbean is paying attention, 215 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:11,719 Speaker 2: has to pay attention to what's happening in the rest 216 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: of the world, and especially within northern neighbor the United 217 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:18,959 Speaker 2: States of America, and it's very influenced. At that point 218 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 2: in time. We're talking in the late seventies early eighties 219 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 2: cold war rhetoric that people are getting in the media. 220 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: The American media was still very and continues to be 221 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,800 Speaker 2: very prominent in terms of what Cribean people consume. Because 222 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 2: we are English speaking, the Americans are English speaking and 223 00:14:35,920 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 2: they have far more resources, so their media comes to us, 224 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: and a lot of the narratives that Caribbean people get 225 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: come in at recent part from American narratives. So these 226 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 2: Cold War era narratives about communism as a scare word 227 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: was something that had yet to be addressed through actual 228 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 2: demonstration of what communism could actually be for people. You know, 229 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 2: people weren't one over on communism yet, it was still unfamiliar, 230 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 2: and in this time you really needed people who were open, 231 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 2: who are accommodating, who were showing people what it meant 232 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: in practice, who were you know, sort of disarming these 233 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 2: notions that could serve us obstacles towards people's buying into 234 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: the struggle. I'm saying this as a non Marxist lendness. 235 00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: I'm putting myself in those shoes. If I'm trying to 236 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 2: get people invested in as convinced of this, that sort 237 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 2: of secrecy it doesn't push things in a postive trajectory. 238 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's easy for the population to perceive that you've 239 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 3: replaced one elite with another elite, right, especially in post 240 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 3: colonial movements, when we do this exactly so, it's a 241 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: transparent word for one, you know. 242 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean not to say that people didn't see 243 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 2: the differences. Yes, correct, they went away the nuances. They 244 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 2: could tell the difference between an Eric Arey and a Mauricepisial. 245 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: They can tell the difference between you know, one form 246 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 2: of politics and another. It's not that they were just 247 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 2: ready to turn court immediately. I mean some of them 248 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 2: still had the fresh wounds of the trauma being inflicted 249 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 2: by eric Arey. Yeah, but it's because of that trauma, 250 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: so they were also sensitive to the potential of new traumas. 251 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:23,239 Speaker 2: Call it paranoia, call it eunistan and right thinking suspicion. 252 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: But they were wary of what was taking place, and 253 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 2: you know, it didn't help. It didn't help that. Okay. 254 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: So you know some people they read like one or 255 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 2: two theory books and they start walking around like their 256 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: head is three times bigger than it is they started 257 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:44,720 Speaker 2: walking around. It's kind of inflated sense of self importance. 258 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm very familiar with that kind of person. 259 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately, that's exactly what started taking place among some 260 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: members of the party. They're reading all these books, all 261 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: these thick books from Russia and Germany and Marx and 262 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 2: learnin and all these people and it's starting to carry 263 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 2: themselves in a particular way. Yeah, with a level of 264 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 2: arrogance and nowhere to illness. And you know, and this 265 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 2: is we're sit in a society. We remember, we are 266 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: fresh out of colonialism, if you know, none of our 267 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 2: independent nations or even one hundred years old. Yet much 268 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 2: of the population still remember that colonial period. And much 269 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 2: of the population, like I mentioned before, needed changes the 270 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 2: education system because they didn't have educational opportunities. So you 271 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:40,239 Speaker 2: had this vast educational inequality, right, and then you have 272 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 2: this new Joe movement and some of its members are 273 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: talking to you like you're stupid because you didn't get 274 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 2: to go to primary school. You didn't read all the 275 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: thick books that they read, or you didn't get to 276 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 2: go to secondary school, or you didn't get to go 277 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: to university, and so you don't know all the big 278 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 2: words and you haven't read all the thick texts that 279 00:17:56,400 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: they have read. And it could rub people the wrong way. 280 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 3: Yes, right, Yeah, there can be too much theory. I 281 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 3: think that often is too much theory, especially when it 282 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 3: creates this idea, right that reading is what distinguishes one 283 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 3: as a revolutionary, right as opposed to doing or just 284 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 3: knowing and caring, and it's a downfall of many movements. 285 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 2: Indeed, I think if you're coming from the background that 286 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: some of these Mutual Movement members were coming from, you 287 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 2: need to put in that extra effort not to dumb 288 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,199 Speaker 2: things down, per see, you still want to respect people's intelligence, 289 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:39,959 Speaker 2: but you have to be aware of the dynamic. It's 290 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 2: something that I myself have to work on, you know, 291 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:46,160 Speaker 2: because I think it's a sort of curse of knowledge 292 00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: where you read so much that you take for granted 293 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 2: and what you know, you know, you read to a 294 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 2: point where you almost forget that this is not common 295 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 2: knowledge or this word may be unfamiliar to a lot 296 00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 2: of people, and you already have to be cognizant of it, 297 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: especially as you're approaching people, and make sure you're talking 298 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: to them in their language. They don't feel as though 299 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 2: they're carrying yourself too big favorites. 300 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely, Like the people who write the thick books 301 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 3: can't be your like milieu, you know, they can't be 302 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 3: there refused the stupid word, but like if those are 303 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 3: the people with whom you're sort of conversing in your head, 304 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 3: and then you begin to to speak in that language. 305 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 3: To people who aren't familiar with it, it just sounds weird. Yeah, 306 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:33,240 Speaker 3: like it's yeah, as you said, you get too big 307 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 3: for your bridges, and you some pompous if you're not. 308 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:51,480 Speaker 2: Careful exactly exactly, And so for the you know, big 309 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 2: shot lawyer again all the time, and she kind of 310 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 2: as I say this, for big shot lawyer thats like 311 00:19:56,040 --> 00:20:01,160 Speaker 2: Marie Bisher and a big shot economics like like Bernard 312 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: Chord and some of the other folks that had been 313 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: part of the core of the party. They had to 314 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 2: approach to people in a particular way, and they were 315 00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: successful in doing so under Eric Garry and as they 316 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,639 Speaker 2: were part of the opposition. But things were shifted also 317 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 2: the two of the eighties, we had a lot of 318 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 2: moves again, suspected counter revolutionaries, imprisonment without trial. To imagine again, 319 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: people are thinking, this is what the monk who's gang 320 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 2: two point zero? Yeah, the fair was starting to overtake, 321 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 2: the society was starting to become cannibalizing, as I said. 322 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: So by the time we get to nineteen eighty three, 323 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,160 Speaker 2: we find ourselves with the people bereft of the early 324 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:43,959 Speaker 2: days of hope in a House divided, which famously cannot stand. 325 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: Unbeknowns to the public, there were tensions between Maurice Bishop 326 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 2: and Bernard coord since at least nineteen eighty two, and 327 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: coord wasn't even part of the Central Committee of the 328 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 2: Neutral Movement anymore for a while. But within the vanguard 329 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 2: the party members still preferred Cord to Bishop. Cord was 330 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 2: seen as more intellectually equipt to lead with his knowledge 331 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 2: of theory. They started calling Bishop egotistics and counter revolutionary. 332 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 2: And I have to say, I love the double edged 333 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 2: sword of these kind of willingly thought to meet and 334 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 2: cliches because they can be used by you and then 335 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: they could be used against you in a snappy fingers. 336 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, it goes back to your fing about hammers and 337 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 3: nails that you mentioned before. 338 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:33,879 Speaker 2: Indeed, so eventually the party decided to bring Cord on 339 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 2: as co leader with Bishop. Originally Bishop agreed, but this 340 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 2: started to create tensions. Things managed recently, but after a 341 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: while Bishop was surtned to push back against the co 342 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,400 Speaker 2: leadership arrangement and the party started seeing it as him 343 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 2: favoring his own ascendancy over the collective unity, and then 344 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,960 Speaker 2: he went to Germany. He left the country on a trip. 345 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,479 Speaker 2: Don't worry. There was none of the coolest time, at 346 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 2: least not yet. When he went to journey on a 347 00:22:01,760 --> 00:22:07,880 Speaker 2: trip came back, there was not a welcome party for him. 348 00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 2: Things were coming to a head. The party did not 349 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 2: have his back anymore, he could feel it. But he 350 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 2: did know that the people still had his back. Remember, 351 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 2: he knows he's charismatic, he knows people love him. So 352 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, this is in nineteen eighty three, 353 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: by the way, a rumor was swollen that Cord wanted 354 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 2: to kill Bishop. Yeah, it's a dangerous rumor, you know. 355 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: It shatters this facade of a united front that had 356 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 2: carried the revolution, that had carried the government for so long. 357 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,719 Speaker 2: But since most people loved Bishop, as he rightfully assumed, 358 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 2: in fact, they were of first name basis with him, 359 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,160 Speaker 2: that's cool. They weren't saying Prime Minister Bishop, your honorable 360 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Bishop. It was hey, Maurice, like that boy, Maurice. 361 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's always a good sign. Like it's one of 362 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 3: the positive marks of the revolution with Shava is that 363 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,959 Speaker 3: everyone is a friend, and everyone's referred to generally by 364 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 3: their first name, and it's always kind of yeah, I've 365 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 3: seen enough read enough about you know, revolutions opposing a 366 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,760 Speaker 3: revolutionary hierarchy. So that's always a good sign, I feel like. 367 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:20,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. So meanwhile, you had Cord who people didn't have 368 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 2: the same kind of relationship with. Yeah, you know, as 369 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:30,240 Speaker 2: far as they're concerned, he's an enemino because of that rumor. Yeah, 370 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 2: and the party actually suspected that it was Bishop that 371 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: started the rumor. In fact, his own post our bodyguards 372 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: suspected it, but Bishop himself denied it. Whether he did 373 00:23:41,560 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 2: or did not start the rumor, we don't know. But 374 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 2: the party was insulted by his movements and put him 375 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 2: under house arrest. What what right now? But he did 376 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: this shocked. 377 00:23:57,920 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 3: Like a shocked peaka. 378 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 2: And that's that's that's how the people feeling it, Like 379 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: what a prime minister arrested? You could do that, that's 380 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 2: the thing. 381 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. 382 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,239 Speaker 2: So you see, the Vanguard, with all that secrecy at 383 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,240 Speaker 2: this point in time, was operating on information that was 384 00:24:13,320 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: not made available to the people, and the people who 385 00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 2: are pissed at the party. Now, the cracks in this 386 00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 2: political arrangement with essentially a secret society on top, were 387 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,720 Speaker 2: starting to show. The people generally speaking regardless of what 388 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: the party wanted wanted Maurice Bishop. They wanted the boy Maurice, 389 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: but the party was not interested in what people wanted. 390 00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: The day is nineteenth of October nineteen eighty three. The 391 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:50,439 Speaker 2: pro Maurice Bishop usual movement, leaders, government ministers, and a 392 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 2: mass demonstration of people roll up to Bishop's house to 393 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 2: set him free. There were gods, of course, assigned to 394 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,880 Speaker 2: keep him in house arrest, but it was God stood down. 395 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 2: They refused to shoot at the people. To the crowd 396 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:09,400 Speaker 2: of people walked to Fort Rupert. Now Fort Rupert wasn't 397 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 2: always Fort Rupert used to be Fort George. Fact, after 398 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 2: the revolution ended it again became known as Fort George, 399 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: but Fort Rupert was named Fort Rupert after Maurice Bishop's father, 400 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,639 Speaker 2: who was killed by Eric Garry, as you may recall. 401 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 2: So they get there, but the majority of the Udual movement, 402 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 2: who were, like I said, backers of Bernard Cord, were 403 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 2: at another fort nearby. Then boom, three armored trucks pull 404 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 2: up from the Fort of Cord to Rupert's Fort Fort Rupert, 405 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,679 Speaker 2: Bratata Da. They start firing into the crowd. People running 406 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 2: all over the place. Who one people died who one 407 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,120 Speaker 2: of people scattered. This event as a trauma for Grenadians 408 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 2: even to this day. By the way, so the Cord 409 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 2: loyalists pull up and line up Bishop Unison Whiteman, who 410 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 2: was the Minister of Foreign Affairs, Nor Spain, who was 411 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: the Minister of Health and was actually not part of 412 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: the neutral movement, and Jacqueline Kraft, who is the Minister 413 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,400 Speaker 2: of Education. They lined them up against the wall and 414 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: shot them summary execution. Others including trade unionists, businessmen, and 415 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:26,480 Speaker 2: high schoolers who were also killed at Fort Rupert. Right 416 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 2: after this, the military curfew was announced on radio. Guinigains 417 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 2: were told to lock their doors. Violators of curfew were 418 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 2: to be shot on site. A couple of days later, 419 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,199 Speaker 2: as people more wanted their dead, the news came that 420 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:47,439 Speaker 2: the United States will invade Grenada. If this was a 421 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 2: HBO series, I feel like that would be the end 422 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 2: of the pronouncement episode. So just to give you a 423 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:58,200 Speaker 2: bit of context on the US's position, the United States 424 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,200 Speaker 2: did not like the way that Cuba and the Soviets 425 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 2: and Grenada were becoming close, even though Grenada was technically 426 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 2: non aligned, like much of the world, was trying to 427 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: stay out of the hairs of the US and the 428 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: USSR in their cold law. Yeah, but Grenada and Grenadians 429 00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 2: represented a serious risk. They were black, that's a big risk. 430 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: They were English speaking. Yep, they were English speaking black 431 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 2: people close to the border of the United States of 432 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 2: America as African Americans were engaged in their own struggle 433 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 2: for liberation in the US as our reach. Bishop noted, 434 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 2: I mean that's the threat that there could be communication, 435 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 2: collaboration between these groups, a demonstration of an alternative close 436 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,920 Speaker 2: to the United States with ease of communication with the 437 00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 2: United States. So the United States invasion was always a 438 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:04,640 Speaker 2: potential outcome, but here it was flexing power and its 439 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 2: fair in its backyard. The Party rounded up a bunch 440 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 2: of people to join them in defending the revolution. Most 441 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:16,000 Speaker 2: people were traumatized. They ran and they hid wherever they could. Some, 442 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: regardless of whether they liked the mutual movement at that 443 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 2: point in time or not, stood ready to defend their 444 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 2: island from invasion. But anymore were hidden and scared. And 445 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 2: there were also others who, out of revenge for the 446 00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 2: revolution that betrayed them, betrayed the revolution by expressing their 447 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 2: support for the invasion. Now me personally, that's something I 448 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 2: would never do. I don't care how much I disagree 449 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 2: with any government that I'm under. I wouldn't co sign 450 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 2: the invasion of my country by an empire. But I 451 00:28:54,120 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 2: can understand the reasoning or the emotional because that some 452 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 2: people were in at that point. So the US's claim, 453 00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 2: by the way, for the invasion was that they were 454 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 2: there to rescue American students who were in Grenada. So 455 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,720 Speaker 2: the there to rescue these students from these communes. Perfect 456 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: American students weren't ender any actual threat. Obviously, nobody was 457 00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 2: mining them or threatening them or anything. But they always 458 00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 2: have to have some kind of story, right, Yeah. So 459 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 2: twenty fifth of October nineteen eighty three, America's boots land 460 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 2: on the ground, joined later by the military personnel of 461 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 2: Barbados and Jamaica. There were more deaths, mostly in Grenadians, 462 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 2: but also some Cubans who were there working on the 463 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:55,680 Speaker 2: new International Airport, an airport that later became known as 464 00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 2: Maurice Bishop International Airport, an airport that just over a 465 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 2: month ago the United States requested to use for its 466 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: military operations in the region. The United States kept the 467 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: media out of the island for two days after the invasion. 468 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 2: They were sure to curate an image of the communist threat. 469 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 2: They wanted to pay into picture for the media to 470 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 2: tell us story back at home about how yeah, they 471 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 2: were actually preparing to work with the Soviets as a 472 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 2: stage in ground to attack the United States. So this 473 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:38,920 Speaker 2: invasion was the first overt as opposed to covert use 474 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 2: of force since Vietnam. The party in power at the 475 00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: time needed an easy win, so party members this is usual. 476 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: Movement party members were imprisoned, an interim government was established 477 00:30:53,040 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 2: by Grenadians living abroad, and the revolution was over a 478 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:14,160 Speaker 2: stock aftermath, the fall of the Utual movement and the 479 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 2: People's Revolutionary Government of Grenada led to the disintegration of 480 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 2: the Worker's Party of Jamaica. It destroyed cara Com the 481 00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,800 Speaker 2: Caribbean community as a united bloc, as Jamaica and Trindad 482 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 2: decided with the US and the invasion, while countries like 483 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: Trindad stood against the invasion. That was a split in 484 00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 2: cara Comb that took years to recover from, and I 485 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 2: think most crucially, the fall of the Neudual movement led 486 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 2: to the death in all but name of the Caribbean 487 00:31:46,240 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 2: left from distrust from inviting and from this resolute enforcement 488 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,680 Speaker 2: of the new colonial model. For all the flaws of 489 00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: the revolution, had it was a representation, have an alternative, 490 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,920 Speaker 2: that something else could be done besides business as usual. 491 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: And that alternative first felt in fighting, and then its 492 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 2: fate was sealed by a belligerent invasion. Yeah, and so 493 00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 2: the Caribbean left not say it, it's actually entirely dead. 494 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 2: There are still figures from that era, there are still 495 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: people who carry progressive or evolutionary politics, but it's had 496 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: it's goal and age is no more. And that is 497 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,720 Speaker 2: in part as a result of that US invasion. And 498 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 2: within Grenado, the bodies of those killed were never found. 499 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: In some cases, the families of those killed or of 500 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 2: department members may even still be divided to this day. 501 00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 2: You know, you can imagine how they must feel, these 502 00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 2: sort of social and police to call divisions that came 503 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 2: out of that kind of action. Who sided with Cord, 504 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,600 Speaker 2: who sided with Bishop, who sided with the US? Who 505 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,160 Speaker 2: stood against who brought whose actions were a response over 506 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 2: the US come in. If the revolution never happened, then 507 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: US wouldn't have come, These people wouldn't be dead. Blame 508 00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: game accusations political conflicts, all of that. You know, it's 509 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: very easy to breeze over the deaths of people in 510 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,120 Speaker 2: historical events as just numbers, as just statistics. You know, 511 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 2: it doesn't even click, you know, because I think, I 512 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 2: don't think our brains can fully handle that much trauma 513 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,840 Speaker 2: at once, So we we could partmentalize it in a way, 514 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: we package it in something that's a bit more digestible 515 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: when you hear figures of you know, even just two 516 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: people dead. That's two people, two entire human beings with lives, interests, passions, relationships, connections, 517 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 2: future snuffed out. And in a country like Grenader from 518 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,840 Speaker 2: a small country, one hundred thousand people, and I mean 519 00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,439 Speaker 2: I'm from Trinad, right, which has a population of about 520 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 2: one point four million people, and it still feels like 521 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 2: you know somebody who knows somebody. The networks are so tight. 522 00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 2: It's even tighter knit network wise in a Grenader or 523 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 2: a Tobago. You know, we're talking neighbors, relatives split into sides, 524 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: cousin blaming, cousin, friend killing friend, a decolonization never fully 525 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,800 Speaker 2: began and never fully completed. Their social splits. On the 526 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 2: perspective on what took place you had the Bishop was 527 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: good crowd, the Bishop was bad crowd. The Bishop was bad, 528 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 2: but the revolution was good crowd. The revolution was bad 529 00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:55,160 Speaker 2: with Bishop was good crowd. You get all sorts of interpretations, 530 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,760 Speaker 2: these kinds of traumatic historical events. Yeah, and the outcome 531 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 2: to this day is, you know, fair, unhealed, open wounds, 532 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 2: the youth, the passionate radical youth of yesteryear, keeping their 533 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,160 Speaker 2: heads down on auto politics. Today. Unfortunately, very little has 534 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: been done in Grenea to deal with the traumas of 535 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: the invasion. Besides an attempted truth and Reconciliation commission, which 536 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 2: failed miserably due to a couple different obstacles, an unwillness 537 00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 2: to reconcile among some, they continued incarceration of certain individuals, 538 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 2: unrecovered remains, anger towards entire sectors the population at the 539 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 2: execution of Bishop and others, and so in the years 540 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 2: that have followed, there's been a subdued political consciousness among 541 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: much of the population. They have risen to the challenge 542 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: of the US inviting themselves to set up shop in 543 00:35:56,120 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 2: Marich Bishop International Airport. There were many actions taken place 544 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,360 Speaker 2: in Grenada to speak up under stand against that intervention, 545 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 2: but for the most part, the propy of this has 546 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 2: been disengaged from the sort of radical passion that you 547 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,920 Speaker 2: saw in that time period. And it didn't help, of course, 548 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 2: that pretty much right after the revolution you had a 549 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: series of natural disasters. In September two thousand and four, 550 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 2: after being hurricane three for forty nine years, the island 551 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,759 Speaker 2: was hit by Hurricane Ivan, a Category three hurricane that 552 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 2: resulted in thirty nine deaths and the damage or destruction 553 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,040 Speaker 2: to ninety percent of the island's homes. In two thousand 554 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,360 Speaker 2: and five, which is the following year, Hurricane Emily, a 555 00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 2: Category one hurricane, struck the island and killed a person. 556 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 2: In twenty twenty four, Hurricane Beryl struck the island of Kariaku. 557 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 2: And so we're already dealing with the environmental instability of 558 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,000 Speaker 2: being a Caribbean island, but now I also have to 559 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 2: be with the political and social instability of such a 560 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,959 Speaker 2: traumatic incident. Before we close, I do want to get 561 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 2: into some of the critiques that I had of this project. 562 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 2: You know, I'm not the type of reason to look 563 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 2: at these historical moments, no matter my allegiance to the 564 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 2: exposed politics of the people in them. And we want 565 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 2: to paint them in a narrow or simplistic brush. You know, 566 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 2: I think I see that tendency across all groups. Yeah, 567 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 2: you know, the mark slellness. We'll talk about these revolutions 568 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,840 Speaker 2: in a very fawning and agulating way. Then you're so 569 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:39,439 Speaker 2: the anarchists to talk about, you know, the Spanish Civil War, 570 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:42,279 Speaker 2: they talk about the Paris community. They talk about these 571 00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,880 Speaker 2: different projects as if they were and as if they 572 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 2: weren't serious flaws in their structure and the analysis and 573 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,160 Speaker 2: their methodology. It's worth addressing. 574 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 3: You know. 575 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 2: It's very easy for nostalgia to take over. 576 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely like something I think about a lot. Like 577 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 3: I translated a piece for the Strangers in a Tangled 578 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,880 Speaker 3: Wilderness zine a few months ago, maybe even a year 579 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 3: ago now by an anarchist fighter who fought in the 580 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,960 Speaker 3: International Group of the Druti Column who went by several names, 581 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 3: Charles Riddle with his birth name, but he has this 582 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 3: whole thing about how anarchists tend to write hagiographies, which 583 00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 3: is the life of a saint, right, Like they've tried 584 00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,320 Speaker 3: to make the Spanish Civil War into these like exemplaries 585 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 3: saintly people as opposed to actually looking at the mistakes 586 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 3: people made and his stances are like his friends died 587 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:37,040 Speaker 3: for nothing if we don't learn anything, and so if 588 00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:42,160 Speaker 3: we don't acknowledge the very real compromises and mistakes and failures, 589 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,839 Speaker 3: then they have been defeated, right, and they all died 590 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 3: for nothing. But if at least we can learn from it, 591 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: then at least of something we can take going forward, 592 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 3: which is something I always thought was a great way 593 00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 3: of phrasing something and quite an admirable way of looking 594 00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,920 Speaker 3: at something that he himself participated in and it was 595 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 3: obviously defining a very traumatic experience of his life. 596 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's something that I've rallied against, that sort of 597 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: great man approach history. Yeah right, I suppose that brings 598 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,120 Speaker 2: me some of my first critique, which is something that 599 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 2: plays Grenada both before, during and after. It is revolution 600 00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 2: when you have a political culture dependent on a maximum 601 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,440 Speaker 2: leader or a personality cult or just a grouping around 602 00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 2: her personality, whether that's Bishop or Gary or Cord. For one, 603 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,560 Speaker 2: it's a continuation of the colonial politics of the British 604 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,680 Speaker 2: in that sort of governor position, and it also I 605 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,520 Speaker 2: think leads to a contempt towards common people, whether it 606 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,440 Speaker 2: starts out that way or not, it eventually makes its 607 00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 2: way into that direction. I still see personality politics rear 608 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 2: and it's ugly headed in Trinidad, even though we've been 609 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 2: independent even longer, you know, nineteen sixty two as opposed 610 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 2: to creator as nineteen seventy four. But the result of 611 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,279 Speaker 2: that kind of politics is, you know, it's ideological and 612 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:15,959 Speaker 2: policy splits either non existent or secondary to personality loyalties, 613 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 2: familiar ties, and in some cases ethnic loyalty. The United 614 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,240 Speaker 2: National Congress, you went to see the party in power 615 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 2: intranet right now, party responsible for our current position is 616 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 2: a personality cult led by a current Prime minister talent 617 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:38,960 Speaker 2: sub processor, and she's only one of many examples of 618 00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 2: this sort of party first, leader first approach to politics 619 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,319 Speaker 2: that we see in the region, a baggage that we 620 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 2: see in the region. I know, with radical politics, it's 621 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,399 Speaker 2: sad because you expect to do away with that kind 622 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 2: of stuff. But the Revolution, in my view, had a 623 00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 2: lack of decolonization away from the authoritarian tendencies of colonial rule. 624 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,280 Speaker 2: That I think is why there was such an appeal 625 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,200 Speaker 2: in Leninist thought and rule to begin with, Because it's 626 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,040 Speaker 2: a lot easier to approach. You know, it doesn't unpack 627 00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:18,319 Speaker 2: the psychology of clonialism, or unpack how Gary's rule may 628 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 2: have shaped their own approach to politics. That another politics might, 629 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 2: that another anti politics might, and so they carried on 630 00:41:26,719 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 2: this elitist, authoritarian, and personality based politics despite having a 631 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,440 Speaker 2: youthful beginning. Bishop was twenty nine when he started a 632 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,960 Speaker 2: neutral movement, which is the same age that Gary was 633 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,799 Speaker 2: when he got into politics. I know one could make 634 00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 2: a movie of the mirrors in their histories, but despite 635 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,440 Speaker 2: his youthful beginning, the youth carried on the mistakes of 636 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 2: their forebearers. They betrayed the excitement of people power that 637 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 2: people had for the revolution, just as they betrayed the 638 00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:00,040 Speaker 2: excitement of people power that people had for independence, and 639 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 2: they continue the consciousness of deference to hierarchy. Again, I 640 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 2: don't want to draw one to one comparisons between Gary 641 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:12,680 Speaker 2: and Bishop. I recognize their stark differences and their politics, 642 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 2: and in their engagement with the people of Grenado they 643 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,240 Speaker 2: were not the same, but in some ways they did rhyme. 644 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,520 Speaker 2: I would wrap up, I suppose with Bundy's sort of 645 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:27,920 Speaker 2: critique of Grenada's revolution, which is what I just echoed 646 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 2: this continued consciousness of a deference to hierarchy. A genuine 647 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 2: revolution depends on people taking direct responsibility, not waiting for 648 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,919 Speaker 2: leaders or stages of development, not waiting on guidance, being 649 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 2: empowered themselves. That sort of tired Leninist gradualism and bureaucratic 650 00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:53,799 Speaker 2: control gets regular people no closer to actually having a 651 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:59,440 Speaker 2: sense of autonomy and control over their lives. And as 652 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 2: funny sizes, especially in small Caribbean societies, participatory local self 653 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:14,000 Speaker 2: managed systems are entirely feasible. Inclosing, fundly suggested that Grenada's 654 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,480 Speaker 2: revolution failed because it moved away from this principle of 655 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 2: immediate collective self management and deliberately chose hierarchy. And from 656 00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,040 Speaker 2: that hierarchy came a sense of erodent trust, came, a 657 00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 2: sense of secrecy, became a sense of secret societies, and 658 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:36,000 Speaker 2: I created a culture of secrecy, a post transparency that 659 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 2: led to its downfall. As I mentioned, it was gossip, 660 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,919 Speaker 2: a rumor of somebody trying to kill Bishop that got 661 00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 2: this ball roller. So today I want to appeal directly 662 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:53,040 Speaker 2: to Cribian radicals of all stripes to learn to learnessly 663 00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 2: learn from the Grenadian revolution on appeal not just to 664 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,959 Speaker 2: Cribian radicals, but to radicals all look across the world, 665 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 2: all across our listenership. It is critical in times when 666 00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:14,080 Speaker 2: the means of intervention and the means of disruption and 667 00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 2: division and co optation are more powerful than ever, that 668 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 2: you engage in the sort of dissipation of leadership, that 669 00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 2: you engage in grassroots and dispersed in powerment, That you 670 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:35,400 Speaker 2: maintain an anti authoritarian ethos that cannot be co opted 671 00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,080 Speaker 2: by a charismatic power. But you're take an approach to 672 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 2: organization that does not lend itself to the vulnerabilities of hierarchy, 673 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 2: that you consider moving like my coruser, that you take 674 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 2: on networks and free associations rather than the sort of 675 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:59,920 Speaker 2: X Marx Spot Bullseye centralized parties and the power struggle 676 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,960 Speaker 2: that ensue from them from that first for power that 677 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:12,560 Speaker 2: led so many downfalls for the revolutionary imagination. Before I 678 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,040 Speaker 2: wrap up, I just want to ask James, we have 679 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 2: any thoughts. 680 00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 3: No. I think that's very eloquent the way you said it, 681 00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 3: Like we have to build systems and ways of organizing 682 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,399 Speaker 3: or relating to one another that don't allow this to happen, right, 683 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,680 Speaker 3: we have to be very conscious, like you say, of 684 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 3: where it has happened. And I think the only way 685 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 3: there'll we understand the value of that is through studying history, 686 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 3: but like studying it from a place like you were saying, right, 687 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 3: like I get death is a statistic or a number 688 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:45,040 Speaker 3: until it's a person. And I think if we can 689 00:45:45,080 --> 00:45:48,760 Speaker 3: study history from a place of like empathy, I guess, 690 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 3: and solidarity rather than this would never happen to me, 691 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,319 Speaker 3: or like you said, like oversimplifying in a way that 692 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 3: I think doesn't help. And sometimes I think we do 693 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:03,520 Speaker 3: it to kind of absorb ourselves from similarity, to think like, oh, 694 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 3: how close could I be to this? It's one of 695 00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 3: the things I don't like about academic history that if 696 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 3: we are people who are interested in making the world better, 697 00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,440 Speaker 3: than we have to learn from all the other people 698 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:18,240 Speaker 3: all over the world who tried to make the world 699 00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:23,520 Speaker 3: better in it, especially from the ones who didn't succeed. Yeah, 700 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,560 Speaker 3: because we don't want to do that again. 701 00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:32,080 Speaker 2: Like exactly and the times the ority engine. Yes, indeed, 702 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,840 Speaker 2: we have to approach that with our due diligence, you know, 703 00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:41,319 Speaker 2: the strategies that were more relevant or more practical in 704 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 2: particular context, may be relevant or practical in your contexts. 705 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:49,759 Speaker 3: Yeah very much so. All right, yeah that was great, 706 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:50,320 Speaker 3: Thank you Andrew. 707 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,759 Speaker 2: To all our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in. 708 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 2: I hope that you can look at our region with 709 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,839 Speaker 2: clearer eyes and visualize us in the way is that 710 00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:08,319 Speaker 2: history repeats and rhymes. Until next time, We'll powell to 711 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,120 Speaker 2: all the people peace. 712 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,840 Speaker 1: It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media. 713 00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 714 00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,720 Speaker 1: coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 715 00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,359 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 716 00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 1: now find sources for it Could Happen here, listed directly 717 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.