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Speaker 1: Fellow conspiracy realist, We return to you from literally around

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Speaker 1: the world with a classic episode that remains oddly relevant today.

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Speaker 1: We were talking about this off air, Matt, and you

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Speaker 1: and I both agreed that this is sort of an

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Speaker 1: eternal subject or an eternal concern for a lot of people.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the concept of being a targeted individuals, as

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Speaker 2: we're going to get into in this episode. This is

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Speaker 2: it's sensitive, right, because you're dealing with potentially mental health,

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Speaker 2: You're dealing with potentially actual human beings that are under

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Speaker 2: some form of investigation. There's all kinds of things that

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Speaker 2: go into this, right, and we still people still write

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Speaker 2: to us and ask us to do Gang Stocking episodes

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Speaker 2: like updates to this and this is back in October

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen that we covered.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an experience that a lot of people have

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Speaker 1: had to degree or another. Who is that person who

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Speaker 1: seems so similar? Right? Is that the same person I

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Speaker 1: saw at the grocery store?

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Speaker 2: That hat looks Wait, I know I've seen that happ before, right, right? Am?

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Speaker 1: I gaslighting myself? Is something afoot? Who is after me?

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Speaker 1: And why? More and more people as we recorded this

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Speaker 1: were claiming that they had been stalked by not a

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Speaker 1: single individual, but by some enigmatic group.

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Speaker 2: And that group is interchangeable. You never know who it

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Speaker 2: could be.

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Speaker 1: Let's roll the tape from UFOs to psychic powers and

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Speaker 1: government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You can

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Speaker 1: turn back now or learn this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome back to the show. My name is

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Speaker 2: Matt nol Is. Where is he on a nol somewhere?

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Speaker 1: Perhaps a grassy one. Yes, they call me Ben. We

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Speaker 1: were joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission

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Speaker 1: control deck, and most importantly, you are you. You are

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Speaker 1: here and that makes this stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know? Matt. How's it going?

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Speaker 2: It's going?

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Speaker 1: Well.

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Speaker 2: I'm wondering what you are doing out there right now

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Speaker 2: as you're listening to this. Are you driving? Are you walking?

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Speaker 2: Are you sitting at your desk? If you are able

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Speaker 2: to If you look around right now, is anybody paying

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Speaker 2: attention to what you're doing? Did somebody just dart their

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Speaker 2: head down as you glanced at them.

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Speaker 1: Is someone on a phone but not appearing to speak

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Speaker 1: into that phone? Are they making eye contact? With you

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Speaker 1: or looking in your direction while they're on the phone.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that they're actually using the phone? Do

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Speaker 1: you think they're actually calling one eight three three std

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Speaker 1: wyt Well, you know, we have a lot of We

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Speaker 1: have a lot of hang ups as a species, right,

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Speaker 1: and many of those are the inevitable result of our

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Speaker 1: great intelligence or the problem of consciousness and sentience or

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Speaker 1: consciousness sabiens, whatever you want to call it is its

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Speaker 1: own bag of badgers. But our fears drive so much

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Speaker 1: of our you know, our failings and our triumphs, our innovations,

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Speaker 1: even our music. You and I were talking off air

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Speaker 1: with Mission Control about various songs that are catchy but

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Speaker 1: strongly paranoid. You know, yeah, sure.

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Speaker 2: Do you always feel like someone is watching you?

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Speaker 1: Do you feel like private eyes are watching you.

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Speaker 2: So they see here every move? What I thought you

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Speaker 2: were going to say? Poop again?

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Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, no, we worked on an alternate version of

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Speaker 1: that song. Yes, Today's Today's episode is about a troubling

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Speaker 1: a troubling feeling, a phenomenon that everyone has experienced to

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Speaker 1: some degree at one point or another. And this this

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Speaker 1: is the feeling of being watched, the feeling of being stalked.

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Speaker 1: And if you were one of the lucky few who

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Speaker 1: are thinking, oh, gee, man, I've never personally felt like

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Speaker 1: someone was following me or stalking me, well, then strap

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Speaker 1: in because you're going to feel that way after this episode. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So I will give a I don't talk too much

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Speaker 1: about the personal stuff, but I will give a personal

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Speaker 1: example of when I was actually followed or stalked. This

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Speaker 1: was when I was living in a different country and

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Speaker 1: I was interacting with some political activists. Let's keep it

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Speaker 1: at that, sure, okay. And I was not in any

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Speaker 1: way a lynchpin of this organization, nor was I involved

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Speaker 1: in any criminal enterprise. I'm very much a dudly do

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Speaker 1: good when I am in someone else's geopolitical house, and

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Speaker 1: it's the best policy. But I noticed a few, you know,

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Speaker 1: a few weeks after I had met with a group,

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Speaker 1: I was at a fairly I had a fairly predictable routine.

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Speaker 1: So I was always sleeping more or less in the

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Speaker 1: same place, and I was typically going to do things

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Speaker 1: in more like the same area, often with predictable times

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Speaker 1: of day, which any PI can tell you is not

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Speaker 1: the best strategy investigator, right right, Thank you? And I

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Speaker 1: started noticing I started noticing the same people at the

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Speaker 1: same time, and eventually, eventually somebody very politely make contact

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Speaker 1: with me and asked me some questions about the folks

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Speaker 1: I met a week or two ago. Wow, and nothing

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Speaker 1: ever came of it. And I you know, the story

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Speaker 1: ends there.

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Speaker 2: But you're fairly sure you were being surveilled or stocked.

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Speaker 1: I'm certain, yeah, And it wasn't. It wasn't in a

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Speaker 1: threatening way. I think. I think these folks just wanted

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Speaker 1: to see what I was going to do next. Sure,

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Speaker 1: what I mean, is this just hanging out? These just

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Speaker 1: some friends hanging out in a coffee shop or a

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Speaker 1: wine bar, or is this a public meeting that leads

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Speaker 1: to something else? Yeah, and that's not I have to

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Speaker 1: also be very clear, it is not illegal for intelligence

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Speaker 1: agencies or law enforcement to do that. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, at least on paper, the US has some

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Speaker 1: laws that are meant to constrain the unchecked use of

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Speaker 1: those powers. Other countries do not, and as often to

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Speaker 1: the peril of many unfortunate people. But let's go away.

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Speaker 1: That's a little scary, but it all's well, that ends well,

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Speaker 1: you know, here are the facts. Have you ever been followed.

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Speaker 1: Like we said, you know, we've all we've all experienced

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Speaker 1: if you are savvy enough to be listening to a podcast,

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Speaker 1: you have experienced some sort of how would you describe

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Speaker 1: it matter as sense of surveillance.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Sure, Again, it doesn't even necessarily mean that it's true,

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Speaker 2: but the perception that something like that perhaps is going on.

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Speaker 2: You maybe have felt it before. We certainly you and

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Speaker 2: I I think in particular, maybe as well as Noel

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Speaker 2: a little bit to a lesser effect, have experienced kind

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Speaker 2: of a fluctuating feeling of being surveilled over the ten years,

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Speaker 2: the decade of making this show, where it waxes and wanes.

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Speaker 2: We even had a joke nsa intern there that we've

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Speaker 2: mentioned several times in the past.

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Speaker 1: Ah, shout out to Steve.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, who's tasked with listening to our episodes and all

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Speaker 2: the ideas that we put forth into the universe. Honestly,

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Speaker 2: they're worried about, you know, the next season of Rick

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Speaker 2: and Morty, Like what's gonna come on there? Like is

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Speaker 2: he getting influenced? Like what are we gonna do?

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Speaker 1: Right? Right? Let's sign up? Is this and also shout

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Speaker 1: out to you, Steve, if you have not graduated yet.

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Speaker 1: If you are still an intern at one of the

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Speaker 1: Spooky Alphabet agencies, then it can only mean you're pursuing

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Speaker 1: a PhD and good luck.

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Speaker 2: That's all right. But again, to our knowledge, we have

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Speaker 2: never really experienced overt surveillance on this show, at least

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Speaker 2: for making this show. Again, we don't have knowledge of

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Speaker 2: it at least, and we certainly haven't encountered what would

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Speaker 2: be considered a stalker. Now.

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Speaker 1: We have received a number of cryptic and order troubling emails,

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Speaker 1: a couple of texts on mobile phones, things.

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Speaker 2: Like that I have a few pieces of physical paper

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Speaker 2: in my desk that I've kept around. Oh yeah, that

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Speaker 2: we're a bit odd with the symbols and everything that

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Speaker 2: was on there and mapping connections to things that I

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Speaker 2: didn't understand.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, we've received some odd posts too, But we

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Speaker 1: haven't encountered what would be described legally as a stalker

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Speaker 1: or stalking situation, which can happen. It's a real thing.

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Speaker 1: The Department of Justice defines stalking as engaging in a

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Speaker 1: course of conduct directed at a specific person that would

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Speaker 1: cause a reasonable person to fear for his or her

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Speaker 1: safety or the safety of others. Or suffer substantial emotional distress.

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Speaker 1: And we have some statistics about this too.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure. If you look to the CDC, they've got

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Speaker 2: a thing called Prevalence and Characteristics of Sexual Violence, stalking

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Speaker 2: and Intimate Partner Violence Victimization. This is a National Intimate

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Speaker 2: Partner and Sexual Violence Survey within the United States twenty eleven. Okay,

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Speaker 2: that's a lot to get through there. It's through the CDC,

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Speaker 2: that's what you need to know. And it's a survey,

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Speaker 2: and this whole thing is commonly referred to as the NISVS.

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Speaker 2: According to this thing, seven and a half million people

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Speaker 2: were stalked in one year alone in the United States,

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Speaker 2: And of course this is the twenty eleven survey, so

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Speaker 2: this is data from twenty ten. Now, a lot of

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Speaker 2: these victims were stalked by either a current or a

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Speaker 2: former intimate partner. That would be sixty one percent of

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Speaker 2: female victims and forty four percent of male victims. And

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Speaker 2: if you look to the population overall, an estimate of

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Speaker 2: fifteen percent of women and six percent of men have

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Speaker 2: been a victim of stalking throughout their entire lifetimes, which

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Speaker 2: you know, is statistically fairly low. But when you think

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Speaker 2: about that number of people seven and a half million

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Speaker 2: human beings that experience stalking in a single year, it's

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Speaker 2: pretty staggering.

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Speaker 1: In the US alone. Yeah, and when we say stalking,

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Speaker 1: we're not talking about you know, creeps on the Internet

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Speaker 1: sliding into your dms. We're talking about the sort of

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Speaker 1: stalking that is defined by the DOJ. For a lot

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Speaker 1: of US. These numbers seem surprisingly high, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? This is like cape fear, single white female

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Speaker 1: kind of thriller stuff. But critics of this survey believe

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Speaker 1: the CDC is used an overly conservative definition of stalking,

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Speaker 1: and honestly, I tend to agree with some of the

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Speaker 1: problems here. Survey respondents were classified as stalking victims if

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Speaker 1: and only if, one they experienced multiple stalking tactics or

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Speaker 1: a single stalking tactic multiple times by the same perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: That part makes sense. Or two they felt very fearful

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Speaker 1: or believed that they or someone close to them would

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Speaker 1: be harmed or killed as a result of the perpetrators

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Speaker 1: stalking behavior. And this comes from the Stalking Resource Center.

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Speaker 1: They say this definition fails to address the varying levels

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Speaker 1: of fear reported by victims. Right somewhat fearful, maybe distressed, disquietened,

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Speaker 1: or slightly fearful. And no stalking law in the US

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Speaker 1: which goes these stalking laws pretty much goes state by

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Speaker 1: state unless you're talking about interstate stalking. These stalking laws

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Speaker 1: don't qualify fear the way that the CDC is. And

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Speaker 1: so they say that using this conservative definition of stalking

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Speaker 1: results in an inaccurate depiction of the practice. But wait,

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Speaker 1: as Billy Mayss want to say, there's more, folks. You see,

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Speaker 1: we have piles of disturbing facts and statistics about this phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: this type of crime according to the Bureau of Justice

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Speaker 1: statistics during a twelve month period. You'll notice these statistics

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Speaker 1: don't all agree during a twelve month period, and estimated

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Speaker 1: fourteen out of every one thousand people age eighteen or

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Speaker 1: older or victims of stalking somehow. And again the definition changes, right,

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Speaker 1: But let's keep in mind these are different organizations of

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Speaker 1: the same government.

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Speaker 2: Well, and really, you're you can only use surveys, right,

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Speaker 2: So depending on who you're surveying, even as random as

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Speaker 2: you want it to be, you may get very different statistics.

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Speaker 1: Right, Right, So it's true because we have to ask

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Speaker 1: ourselves about the methodology. One survey may just be going

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Speaker 1: off self reporting right. One survey may be going off

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Speaker 1: only reports that have been made to law enforcement, and

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Speaker 1: as we know, quite a few people do not report

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Speaker 1: things like that to law enforcement unless unless it exceeds

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Speaker 1: a certain threshold, Like most people are not calling nine

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Speaker 1: to one one every time they get an unsolicited again

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Speaker 1: an unsolicited maybe message on Instagram or something you know.

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Speaker 2: Sure or you know, a robo call, or you know,

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Speaker 2: consistent robo calls from the same number or something.

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Speaker 1: About half of stalking victims, around forty six percent, said

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Speaker 1: they experienced at least one unwanted contact per week. Eleven

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Speaker 1: percent of victims said they've been stalked for a long

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Speaker 1: time five years or more. The risk of being a

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Speaker 1: victim of stalking was highest for individuals who were divorced

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Speaker 1: or separated. That's thirty four out of one thousand individuals.

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Speaker 1: Women were at a greater risk than men for being

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Speaker 1: for stalking victimization. However, women and men were equally likely

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Speaker 1: to experience harassment. Nearly three and four stalking victims knew

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Speaker 1: their offender in some way. That person you go to

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Speaker 1: school with, who's kind of quiet and ex significant other.

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Speaker 2: Even if it's just a neighbor, even if it's.

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Speaker 1: Just a neighbor, just a face woman in some way. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, when we see these crimes or these situations

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Speaker 1: depicted in works of fiction, people go to the police,

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Speaker 1: and predictably, especially if it's a thriller, the police ignore them.

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Speaker 1: Our hands are tied. They say, we could get a

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Speaker 1: restraining order. That's the extent of it. Now, that's you know,

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Speaker 1: oversimplified for the sake of plot and narrative. But it

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Speaker 1: is unfortunately true that not all states treat stalking the

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Speaker 1: same way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, currently just over half fifty one percent of states.

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Speaker 2: They'll require that there are at least two or more instances.

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Speaker 2: We kind of talked about this a little bit, but

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Speaker 2: there have to be at least two instances where this perpetrator,

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Speaker 2: whoever the person is, that's perceived as a stalker, as

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Speaker 2: either following, harassing, watching in some way the person who's

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Speaker 2: the victim, right, But then some state laws actually specify

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Speaker 2: the victim has to be frightened by the stalking. Like

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Speaker 2: there again we're talking about fear here. It's kind of

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Speaker 2: what we mentioned earlier, like if you were walking into

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Speaker 2: a police department to make a report, and you are

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Speaker 2: not fearful of this stalking is just a nuisance perhaps

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Speaker 2: or something like that, then it wouldn't necessarily be considered stalking.

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Speaker 2: Some others require that the stalking behavior must have caused

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Speaker 2: a reasonable person to experience fear. But again, a lot

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Speaker 2: of these states vary on what fear is, like what

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Speaker 2: are we defining fear as? Is it somewhat fearful, quite fearful,

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Speaker 2: very fearful? And some state laws even require, you know,

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Speaker 2: a prosecutor if they were gonna take somebody to court

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Speaker 2: and charge them with stalking, they would require the prosecutor

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Speaker 2: to establish that fear of death or at least some

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Speaker 2: kind of you know, serious harm was at least felt

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Speaker 2: by the victim, And you know, others just require that

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Speaker 2: a prosecutor established the victim suffered some kind of emotional distress.

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Speaker 2: And that is generally going to be experienced by anyone

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Speaker 2: who feels at least that they are the victim of stalking.

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Speaker 1: And we'll get back to a problematic, challenging issue with

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Speaker 1: that definition. But first we've painted the scene right. The

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Speaker 1: broad context, being stalked in North Dakota is not the

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Speaker 1: same as being stalked in California or Oklahoma.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: We know that stalking is reel. We know that it

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Speaker 1: is by itself a frightening phenomenon for the people involved.

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Speaker 1: Yet over the course of recent years, more and more

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Speaker 1: individuals are coming forward, often forming communities online, claiming that

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Speaker 1: they have been harassed, stalked, terrorized, not by an ex lover,

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Speaker 1: not by a single creepy obsessed neighbor or former school chum,

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Speaker 1: but by groups of people, coordinated groups, acting in concerts

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Speaker 1: and behaving as though they have a plan, a gang

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Speaker 1: of stalks. So today's question is what exactly is going on?

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Speaker 2: And we'll get to that right after a quick word

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Speaker 2: from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. Gang stalking. Yes, gang stalking.

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Speaker 1: This is something many of our fellow listeners have written

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Speaker 1: in to us about over the years, and I do

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Speaker 1: mean years. As we've established earlier, stalking has a few

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Speaker 1: common characteristics. Tends to be highly personal and individualized. Tends

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Speaker 1: to be measured at least partially in subjective emotional terms,

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Speaker 1: at least as far as the letter of the law

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Speaker 1: applies in the US. And that's a tricky thing. We

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Speaker 1: cannot objectively measure a subjective experience, especially because we know

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Speaker 1: that emotions are malleable and to a degree in ephemeral.

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Speaker 1: Often right things, we feel different ways about the same

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Speaker 1: thing at different times, which sounds elementary but is incredibly

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Speaker 1: important for this. It reminds me of you know, how

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Speaker 1: the Sackler family and other criminals of that ILK had

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Speaker 1: put in you know, it'd spent.

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Speaker 2: I love that you just phrased it that way.

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Speaker 1: It's true, sorry, criminals who are not going to be convicted,

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Speaker 1: right people, drug dealers. I don't know what you want

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Speaker 1: me to say.

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Speaker 2: No, no, I'm completely honest. It's refreshing to you hear

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Speaker 2: it stated in the.

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Speaker 1: Well those are unfortunately true things. But but the these

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Speaker 1: like these organizations, the opioid mongers, had spent millions making

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Speaker 1: a standardized pain reporting scale that medical professionals were more

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Speaker 1: or less forced to use. And we've all we've all

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Speaker 1: kind of heard it before. Describe your pain on a

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Speaker 1: scale of one to ten right.

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Speaker 2: On comfor it's basically comfort or.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yea yeah, yeah yeah. And so we're asking we're

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Speaker 1: asking people to subjectively rate something. So if we're asking

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Speaker 1: people to subjectively rate their fear after something incredibly frightening

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Speaker 1: has happened to them, you know what I mean, Like,

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Speaker 1: I just got an envelope full of like hair and

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Speaker 1: a picture of my kid at the playground. Oh do

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Speaker 1: you think I'm somewhat discomfited by this? You know it's insane?

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Speaker 2: Well it is. I mean, when you're speaking of perceived stalking,

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Speaker 2: as we're going to find a little later in the episode,

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Speaker 2: it ranges from a glance from somebody that perhaps you

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Speaker 2: don't know, to I mean, I can only imagine the

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Speaker 2: nth degree. There would be someone holding a weapon to

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Speaker 2: your body and you know, threatening you, Like, that would

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Speaker 2: be the range I'm assuming if you're talking about levels

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Speaker 2: of fear within stalking, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's the problem with that definition because different

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Speaker 1: people will have different thresholds right of what they consider frightening.

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Speaker 1: And this is not at all in any way shape,

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Speaker 1: form or fashion meant to diminish or minimize the experiences

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Speaker 1: of people who are victimized by stalking. We're saying that

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Speaker 1: some people will behave differently, and there's not really a

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Speaker 1: one size fits all for you.

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Speaker 2: Yes, some people behave and perceive differently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there we go. That's incredibly important. So here's the

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Speaker 1: strange part. For people who believe that they're victims of

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Speaker 1: group stalking or gang stalking, the same rules apply with

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Speaker 1: but not in the same way and with even higher stakes,

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Speaker 1: like they may feel there is a highly personal, individualized

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Speaker 1: motive behind this group of people stalking them, but they

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Speaker 1: may not have known these people before. It's just the

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Speaker 1: guy who's always now at the bus stop around the

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Speaker 1: same time as you. And because the definitions of the

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Speaker 1: term gang stalking can be a little tough to come by,

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Speaker 1: we found some pretty pretty comprehensive definitions from the subreddit

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Speaker 1: on gang stalking, And there is a dedicated subreddit to

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Speaker 1: this and I like their definition. I think it gives

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Speaker 1: us a good lay of the land.

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Speaker 2: Oh sure. It says that gang stalking is an umbrella term,

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Speaker 2: and it describes a series of techniques utilized by a

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Speaker 2: group to instill mental instability within a victim. So that

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Speaker 2: would be a particular individual with the intent to discredit, sabotage, harass, extort,

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Speaker 2: and even drive a victim to suicide or at least

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Speaker 2: to mental distress. And it goes on to say the

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Speaker 2: victims of this practice are often described as targeted individuals

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Speaker 2: known as TIS.

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Speaker 1: For short, So we will no relation to the artists.

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Speaker 2: Correct, and we will be using TI sometimes targeted individuals

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Speaker 2: moving forward.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and according to the TIS who feel that they

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Speaker 1: are victims of gang stocking operations, the stalking can take

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Speaker 1: multiple forms, right.

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Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, there are lots of different perceived things here

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Speaker 2: that have been described by multiple people. So this isn't

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Speaker 2: just one person's account of what it's like to be

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Speaker 2: gang stalked or the perception of what is occurring. So

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Speaker 2: let's get to something called mobbing. Let's hit that first.

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Speaker 2: So this is an intense and organized harassment, sometimes in

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Speaker 2: the workplace, but mobbing can also occur outside of the workplace,

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Speaker 2: where it's just a whole bunch of people that appear

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Speaker 2: to be around you or paying attention to you or

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Speaker 2: watching you all at once. Like again, if you just

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Speaker 2: if you imagine the concept of mobbing, it's a lot

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Speaker 2: of people all at once with their attention focused on you.

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Speaker 2: But then but then their attention will go away and

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Speaker 2: they'll come right back to you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and then there are black bag jobs, which would

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Speaker 1: be a residential break in where maybe something is stolen

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Speaker 1: or something's messed with, but your house is not valuables

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Speaker 1: aren't necessarily taken. It's not like a burglary.

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Speaker 2: It's for me. My understanding is it's a perception that

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Speaker 2: your inner sanctum, your place of safety, has been disheveled

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Speaker 2: or messed with or looked at by somebody who physically,

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Speaker 2: you know, breached the perimeter or whatever.

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Speaker 1: And maybe they altered something, or maybe they installed something

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Speaker 1: to monitor you.

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Speaker 2: And generally it's to mess with you, right, right, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean that's the perception, is that somebody broke in

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Speaker 2: here just to mess with me, not like you said,

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Speaker 2: not to take something of any value.

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Speaker 1: Right, maybe in some cases to leave something. The idea

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Speaker 1: is that the idea here in both of those cases

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Speaker 1: is that someone is attempting to compromise the victim's sanity

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Speaker 1: or their perception of reality. This term we commonly encapsulate

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Speaker 1: this in the term gaslighting. Yeah, right, So gaslighting is

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Speaker 1: when someone attempts some person or some group attempts to

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Speaker 1: convince some other person or some other group that they

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Speaker 1: are in fact mentally unstable, they are losing their mind,

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Speaker 1: and so on. It comes from a play nineteen thirty

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Speaker 1: eight called Gaslight. In the US, it's known as Angel Street,

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Speaker 1: and it's about a woman whose husband slowly her or

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Speaker 1: gaslights her into thinking that she is losing her mind.

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Speaker 1: There are other things like a street theater.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, now this is this is one that you can

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Speaker 2: find videos of online in a lot of places in YouTube,

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Speaker 2: where it will be a group of people that if

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Speaker 2: you're watching objectively, it feels as though it's just normal

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Speaker 2: activity out on a street, particularly or it doesn't have

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Speaker 2: to be a street, it can be just in any

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Speaker 2: public space. And you know, but for the person who

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Speaker 2: believes they're being gang stoked, everything feels inauthentic. It feels

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Speaker 2: like it's a bunch of theater people, theater kids putting

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Speaker 2: on a play. It like it's organized in some way

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Speaker 2: for specifically the purpose to agitate the person who's perceiving

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Speaker 2: it as being as stalking.

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Speaker 1: Right, And this goes into the concept of some performance art.

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Speaker 1: Some of us listening might say, well, what about things

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Speaker 1: like improv everywhere? Yeah? Have you seen those clips?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it's like.

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Speaker 1: People spontaneously freeze for sixty seconds in train station where

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Speaker 1: everybody starts in a flashmob, dancing and stuff. It's not

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Speaker 1: like that. That's not what people who have encountered this.

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Speaker 1: They don't feel that they're watching some NDO artsy performance.

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Speaker 1: They feel like that person's pretending to read a magazine,

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Speaker 1: pretending to be on the phone. How long is that

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Speaker 1: person going to keep, you know, looking at different pairs

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Speaker 1: of sunglasses?

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you know what I mean totally. And then

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Speaker 2: another thing here that I want to just talk about.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna have some examples moving forward, a little bit

434
00:28:53,880 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 2: of personal experiences with this and or accounts. But other

435
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 2: way gang stocking takes shape sometimes is when you're driving

436
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 2: your car and there's a there's the feeling that several

437
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: cars around you may maybe the one in front of

438
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 2: you is slowing down to keep you going a certain speed,

439
00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 2: but then there are also cars next to you, so

440
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,800
Speaker 2: you can't change lanes to go around this person that

441
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 2: seems to be controlling you. And then maybe another car

442
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 2: will box you in from behind and prevent you from

443
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: really doing anything, especially if you're on a freeway. There

444
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:36,719
Speaker 2: are instances where people will believe their home is wherever

445
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 2: they wherever it is they live, and sleep is being

446
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 2: consistently surveilled by the same people that walk by the

447
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 2: house at certain Like you said, kind of at certain times,

448
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 2: or maybe wearing a very specific hat sure, or are

449
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 2: wearing the same clothes. That's kind of the way it

450
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: takes form. And there are a lot of reasons that

451
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: they're There are several categories of reasons people believe they're

452
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,400
Speaker 2: being gang stalked. And before we get into too much

453
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: of that, let's just I think we should give some

454
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: examples of people's accounts, like personal accounts.

455
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's probably the best way to depict this experience.

456
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: Let's look at some first hand accounts of people who

457
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 1: feel they have experienced gang stalking. James Crockett has a

458
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,920
Speaker 1: great quote on this in his article for Medium, and

459
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: he describes it thusly. In one video, a TI takes

460
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: a GoPro that's a GoPro camera on the New York

461
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 1: subway and narrates his journey to try to prove the

462
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: existence of his stalkers. He notes a man in an

463
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 1: orange jacket who occasionally looks at him, another tall man

464
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: who enters the train and makes eye contact with the

465
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: man in the jacket, and a lady who he thinks

466
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 1: he's giving him dirty looks whenever he looks away from her.

467
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 2: For several stops, she just stands there. He says, these

468
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 2: people really do perform a vicious act. They don't care

469
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: if people are driven to suicidal depression, like I almost was.

470
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 2: It wasn't until after that I realized this was some

471
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 2: kind of sick game I am in.

472
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,600
Speaker 1: So there's another possibility there, you know, the saying it's

473
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: a sick game. There's the idea that maybe this is

474
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:23,239
Speaker 1: a recreational activity for some people. Maybe the cause is

475
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: just to just to mess with people, you.

476
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: Know, perhaps, And you can also go online and see

477
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 2: videos of people with a camcorder in a public space

478
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: filming other people that they believe are gangstocking the person

479
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: with the camcorder. And we're gonna have to get into

480
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,840
Speaker 2: that a little bit later too. But just that concept

481
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 2: of being in a public place with a camcorder aimed

482
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: at strangers that you don't know, I'm gonna say it's

483
00:31:56,720 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 2: likely that you are going to bring attention to yourself

484
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: because you're doing that. Many of us, when we're in

485
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: public spaces will notice if there is a camera aimed

486
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: at us, right, and again, it's tough to know whether

487
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 2: or not that attention is brought upon by the actions

488
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: of the filmer or if it's I mean, it feels

489
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 2: that way to me, but it's not conclusive, so we'll

490
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 2: get into that a little bit later too. There's also

491
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: a Vice short documentary that was created in twenty seventeen

492
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 2: called The Nightmare World of gang Stocking. It's a video

493
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 2: that's available on YouTube right now, and there are several

494
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 2: people in it who describe their experiences. So let's first

495
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 2: turn to Billy Bee, who is a makeup artist and

496
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: a self described gang stoking victim, and in his particular account,

497
00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 2: he believes he's a victim of culture stalking, which is

498
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: kind of an offshoot of gang stocking functions in the

499
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: same way, the reasons that he's being stalked are a

500
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 2: little bit altered. So in this case, he is a

501
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: man who identifies as homosexual, who is living in a

502
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: very let's say, conservative area, and he believes there's some

503
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 2: conservative Christian group that is in an organized way stalking

504
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 2: him and doing these things like street theater that are

505
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,680
Speaker 2: making him feel uncomfortable. Where he will be parked in

506
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:24,920
Speaker 2: a fairly empty lot somewhere, and then a lot of

507
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 2: cars will pull in, and each one that pulls in

508
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: a heterosexual couple gets out holding hands, being all cute

509
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 2: to you, right near his car and on purpose making

510
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 2: eye contact with him or flaunting it in front of him,

511
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: and it would happen over and over and over and

512
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: over and over. So this this is the way he

513
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 2: describes it.

514
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 1: You're in the middle of this ridiculous, irrational impossibility that

515
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: is real and is happening, and it's stranger than fiction

516
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: or anything that you can imagine, and it's just terrifying.

517
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,000
Speaker 1: It pisces you off, it frustrates you beyond anything that

518
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: you can imagine, and it changes you.

519
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 2: I mean, that's that's rough to be feeling that right

520
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: at an individual level.

521
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 1: And what do we know what part of the country

522
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: this person, mister B is in. This is California, This

523
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: is California, and there's a conservative area of California which

524
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: does exist. Some people outside the state might be surprised

525
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: by that. And the question then becomes, is this a

526
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: situation where everybody in a community knows each other? You know,

527
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: like if you go to a small town, right, people

528
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: make eye contact, people wave, And if you go to

529
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 1: a small town where people don't care for outsiders or

530
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: don't care for you specifically, it becomes very clear very

531
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: quickly that's is that gangstalking or is that just people

532
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: being jerks? And people don't have to like have a

533
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 1: meeting beforehand to be jerks. They naturally take to that.

534
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and this is gonna be a common theme here.

535
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 2: No matter what even the truth is about what's happening,

536
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 2: these targeted individuals believe that this is happening so wholeheartedly

537
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: that it's affecting them, you know, mentally and emotionally and

538
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 2: physically sometimes, so you know, you're right on the money.

539
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 2: But there have been like the way that I'm thinking

540
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: about these, you know, some of the statements and some

541
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: of the things that people are describing. So let's just

542
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: turn to another person who was also from that Vice

543
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 2: documentary named Richard Bruce. He he's a guy who I

544
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: believe was living out of his RV and he is

545
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: describing his where he's lived over the course of several

546
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 2: years in different places, those like apartments and you know,

547
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 2: the car and where he's living now in the RV.

548
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: All of these places were constantly surveilled by groups of

549
00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 2: people as well as by helicopters. Police helicopters that would

550
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 2: fly over all the time law enforcement vehicles that would

551
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 2: pass by his living spaces all the time. When he

552
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,319
Speaker 2: was being interviewed for this documentary, he had a small

553
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: device next to him and I don't know if it

554
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 2: was a radio or some kind of monitor or something,

555
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 2: but when he would begin to talk about certain subjects

556
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 2: or in certain ways, the device would make some noise,

557
00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 2: and he believed that he was being listened to by

558
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 2: electronic surveillance, and specifically when he would bring up certain topics,

559
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 2: that's when they were like recording or you know, established

560
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 2: the connection or something like this.

561
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 1: And he does a fantastic job, at least in this

562
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:56,880
Speaker 1: quotation or in this interview, showing metacognition right thinking about thinking.

563
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 1: He's self aware, and he understands how this may to

564
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 1: someone hearing about this for the first time. He understands

565
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: how this may sound a little bit off kilter.

566
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, he says, it's confusing to humans trying to understand

567
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: gang stalking. Why would they do this to me? Why

568
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,399
Speaker 2: would they do these weird, petty little things that may

569
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 2: even just irritate me at some moment. This happens to

570
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: you enough, believe me, you will feel stress. You will

571
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,680
Speaker 2: get that feeling of helplessness. This is not just like

572
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: a gang of random people just doing this. This is procedural.

573
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 2: If you were to ask me what gang stalking is,

574
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 2: it's a way to slowly kill people using their own decisions.

575
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,239
Speaker 1: Which is fascinating, right, And from that interview, I think

576
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: we can all feel the as if we're looking through

577
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:52,320
Speaker 1: a window into the hopelessness and the terror and anxiety

578
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: of this person's life. If you want to read more

579
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: of these personal accounts, which again are anecdotal and are

580
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:05,839
Speaker 1: not you know, they don't contribute to a quantitative study

581
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: of any sort. But if you would like to read

582
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: these first hand accounts, again without us being able to

583
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:17,799
Speaker 1: vouch for their veracity, we recommend heading toward reddit dot

584
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 1: com are gang stalking reddit dot com slash are slash

585
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: gang stalking all one word speaking words. We're going to

586
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,439
Speaker 1: pause for one from our sponsor, and when we come back,

587
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 1: we're going to address the elephant in the room motive.

588
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,920
Speaker 1: We have returned. We hope that if you're listening to

589
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: this show while you're in a public space, you are

590
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 1: not getting increasingly weirded out. But there's a big problem

591
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,719
Speaker 1: they will see with a lot of these, Well, problem

592
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,520
Speaker 1: isn't the most accurate word. There is a big question

593
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: that remains unasked, and a lot of these firsthand reports

594
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: and a lot of the literature you will see about

595
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: the concept of gang stalking, it is this why why

596
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,799
Speaker 1: would you do that? Right? Would you do it for

597
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: just pure evil twisted recreation? You know? Is this a

598
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: situation where Mission Control, Matt, you and I get together

599
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,439
Speaker 1: and we say, hey, you know, the four or five

600
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: of us should just just find someone on Facebook who

601
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 1: lives in our town and you know, just stalk them. Yeah,

602
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: I just poke the bear, right, We're so tired of

603
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 1: playing board games. Let's let's do something different with their friendship. Yes,

604
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 1: which may have happened, but that doesn't seem like it

605
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: would be the normal thing for people to do, not

606
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,360
Speaker 1: because people are inherently so great or noble, just because

607
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:57,600
Speaker 1: it feels like a lot of work for a lot

608
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,200
Speaker 1: of people unless they're getting something out of it. So

609
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: another question, or another possible motive that we see cited

610
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: a lot pretty often by people who believe they are

611
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: being gang stalked is the idea that these activities are

612
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: occurring at the behest of the US intelligence community. And

613
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: this again goes to a lot of US reports. So

614
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: there's a site called fight gang stalking dot com and

615
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,919
Speaker 1: according to you can tell from the title that to them,

616
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: this is a legitimate, real phenomenon. And according to fight

617
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,720
Speaker 1: gang stalking dot com, gang stalking is quote most likely

618
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: a disinformation term created by US intelligence agencies. It refers

619
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 1: to the intense, long term, unconstitutional surveillance and harassment of

620
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: a person who has been designated as a target by

621
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: someone associated with America's security industry WHOA.

622
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 2: And it goes on to say, quote, the goal of

623
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 2: such operations, in the parlance of counterintel telligence agents, is

624
00:41:01,440 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 2: disruption of the life of an individual deemed to be

625
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: an enemy or potential enemy of clients or members of

626
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: the security state. Arguably the most accurate term for this

627
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: form of harassment would be counter intelligence stalking.

628
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: So there's a problem here, though. The problem is this

629
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: the tis or targeted individuals are rarely unified in what

630
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 1: exactly caused them to be stalked. While it is absolutely,

631
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 1: inarguably true that extensive and illegal surveillance has been used

632
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: by past and current governments should not be a surprise

633
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 1: to anybody, there's relatively little follow up reporting in these

634
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: gang stalking stories, and there's relatively little coherent explanation for

635
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 1: why these people would be driven to fearful actions or

636
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 1: to mental instability, or at the worst, to self harm.

637
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you have to apply the motive problem then

638
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: to the security state or to the intelligence agencies, right,

639
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 2: what is their motive for targeting that individual?

640
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: And then this goes to the trench coat clad, fedora

641
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:22,040
Speaker 1: wearing elephant in the room. Is this a genuine phenomenon

642
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 1: occurring the way in which it's described and are the

643
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 1: people experiencing it describing it accurately or are people some

644
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:36,440
Speaker 1: if not all, these people experiencing some kind of delusion.

645
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 1: Not that that could be considered an offensive question, but

646
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be. It's a necessary question.

647
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely. If we're going to talk about this, we have

648
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: to at least think about it.

649
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 1: So what do we have to go on? Where can

650
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: we look to for some answers like what even is?

651
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: What do we mean when we say delusion?

652
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,640
Speaker 2: Well, let's jump back to that Vice documentary Again, huge

653
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 2: shadow out to the team member's advice that created that documentary.

654
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 2: It really is fantastic and there's a lot of insight

655
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,880
Speaker 2: here and things to think about to chew on philosophically.

656
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 2: So they interviewed a fellow named Josh Basil or Bazell.

657
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,440
Speaker 2: He's a physician and an author, and he's discussing the

658
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:22,799
Speaker 2: psychiatric definitions of delusion, and he's saying that these tend

659
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 2: to focus really on two principles. The first one is

660
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: that the ideas, if you're at least if you're experiencing

661
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: a delusion, the ideas that you have are not vulnerable

662
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 2: to evidence. So if someone shows you look this thing,

663
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 2: you believe it is not true. Because of this I

664
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 2: have evidence, that wouldn't matter because you would still believe it. Okay.

665
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 2: The other part of a delusion is that people in

666
00:43:49,680 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: your immediate sphere of influence, perhaps the people in the

667
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 2: culture at large, or in your town, or in the

668
00:43:56,560 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: case of Billy b maybe the conservative neighborhood where he's

669
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:03,799
Speaker 2: move to. Those people don't share your beliefs, so they

670
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 2: don't believe that what you believe is happening is true.

671
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,719
Speaker 2: That would be one of the ways we get to

672
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 2: considering someone to have a delusion. Now, he goes on

673
00:44:13,960 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 2: to say, the question becomes this is a full quote

674
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 2: the question becomes, if you can find ten thousand people

675
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: on the Internet who believe the same thing as you,

676
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 2: is that then a delusion? Is it even bizarre? Quite

677
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 2: possibly not if everybody believes this stuff at least, this

678
00:44:30,120 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 2: would be the question you ask yourself as you stumble

679
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 2: upon ten thousand other people that share your in this case,

680
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: what he's calling a delusion, is it in any way insane?

681
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 2: And the answer would be no, because it is not delusionable.

682
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 2: Look at all these other people who are experiencing the

683
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 2: same thing, and I think this is It's a fascinating

684
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 2: way to look at it. Because then does it get

685
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: into the realm of group delusion or is it still

686
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 2: on the personal level of because it is a very

687
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 2: personal experience. Gang stalking like the perception that I am

688
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:10,000
Speaker 2: being gang stocked. It is not as though gang stalkers

689
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 2: are looking at my whole neighborhood or looking at my

690
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: whole you know, cul de sac or whatever it may be.

691
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: It's generally a targeted thing. That's why they are called

692
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: targeted individuals. I don't know, it's a tough thing. It's

693
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 2: a tough egg to crack there.

694
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: For me, at least, it also goes into philosophy. Yeah,

695
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: that's really what the psychologist is doing here is looking

696
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: at the problem of perception and reality.

697
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, you're right.

698
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:48,040
Speaker 1: So that's that's a that's an egg that our species

699
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: has yet to effectively crack. We know that things can

700
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 1: become normalized for people at a cartoonishly quick rate. So

701
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: we know that our concept of what normal is is

702
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: very malleable, and we know that our species tends to

703
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: look to anything we perceive as peers for confirmation of things.

704
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 1: And also at the weirdest times, we're very talented and

705
00:46:16,680 --> 00:46:20,840
Speaker 1: big up in each other. I mean, maybe that's just

706
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: my experience, but I've had I've had some conversations with

707
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:29,280
Speaker 1: absolute strangers that confirm some deeply held quote unquote crazy

708
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:34,400
Speaker 1: things that I believe. You know, and having someone else,

709
00:46:35,280 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 1: whether you meet them in person or whether they're just

710
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 1: a block of text that you can assume is a

711
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: person talking back to and confirming your beliefs. Having somebody

712
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: else say that is a light in the darkness for

713
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 1: a lot of people, you know what I mean. And

714
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: that's a huge that's a huge thing. That's a trope

715
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 1: in fiction, that's a common experience in individual reality to

716
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,480
Speaker 1: have someone else say something to you that lets you

717
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 1: know I'm not the only one. We do that in

718
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 1: the smallest, like the smallest, most seemingly insignificant situations, you know,

719
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,799
Speaker 1: like let's say you and I and Paul are like

720
00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 1: recording in a studio, Matt, and then all of a sudden,

721
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 1: there's this weird you know, where'd you come from? Where'd

722
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: you go? Where did you come from? Cotton Eye Joe.

723
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: We look around and we check even thow and we're

724
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: a relatively sane mental stuff arguably, but even we still check, like, Hey,

725
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 1: does anybody here cotton eye Joe? Or is this finally

726
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 1: that psychotic break that we all knew was coming? This?

727
00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: And I don't want to get too far off topic there,

728
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,760
Speaker 1: but I can see the power of that, certainly, and

729
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: it's reinforcement all.

730
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: The way, right.

731
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 1: And then there's also set and setting, which I think

732
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: continues in the quotation.

733
00:47:59,760 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, And just before we jump into that bed,

734
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 2: I want to talk about a concept of hypervigilance, and

735
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 2: it's something that Josh brings up in that documentary, and

736
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 2: it's the concept that for our own self preservation, if

737
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 2: we are experiencing something or we believe we are experiencing something,

738
00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 2: we err on the side of safety for ourselves, for

739
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: our personal safety, rather than on whatever the social morase

740
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:37,560
Speaker 2: would be, whatever the standard actions to take would be

741
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 2: for someone. And it all occurs when there's a perceived

742
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:44,120
Speaker 2: connection that may or may not be there. So we're

743
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 2: talking about seeing somebody walk by and then seeing that

744
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:56,520
Speaker 2: person maybe walk by again. The hypervigilance within a lot

745
00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 2: of people experiencing this would be, oh, that person may want,

746
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 2: you know, maybe a part of this thing that I'm

747
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:07,440
Speaker 2: already feeling or already believe I'm experiencing, rather than perhaps

748
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 2: that person went to go get you know, something down

749
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 2: the street and then you didn't see them walk by,

750
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 2: and now they're going back down again, or you know,

751
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 2: something to that effect. But ultimately, what this is or

752
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:24,960
Speaker 2: what that means is that people experiencing this are going

753
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 2: to be more hyper aware of things like that because

754
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 2: they are so worried about their own safety already because

755
00:49:30,960 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 2: of the anxieties that are brought up by feeling this way.

756
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 2: It's almost like it just builds on itself. So then

757
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 2: Josh goes on to talk about how there are real

758
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 2: world instances of surveillance, either targeted or mass surveillance, that

759
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 2: maybe we should be worried about that are They are

760
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: very much real, They've been proven, they exist around us

761
00:49:55,760 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 2: every day. And I'll just read this quick quote from you,

762
00:50:00,320 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 2: he says, because this reminds me of stuff they want

763
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 2: you to know. He says, given that the world is

764
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: filled with groups of people operating in secret or trying

765
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 2: to to divorce us from our money, our power, or

766
00:50:11,760 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 2: whatever they want from us, one thing that might be

767
00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:16,680
Speaker 2: helpful to ask from a psychiatric point of view is

768
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: what's wrong with the rest of us? Why am I

769
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: so relaxed? What's wrong with me? Why don't I feel

770
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,320
Speaker 2: like I'm being gang stocked? Is it that I'm living

771
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,799
Speaker 2: in the matrix where in order to feel more comfortable,

772
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 2: I've decided to ignore a lot of the evils in

773
00:50:30,120 --> 00:50:32,360
Speaker 2: the world and a lot of the potential threats to me.

774
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:37,360
Speaker 2: And there he's referencing the NSA's mass surveillance of citizens

775
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:42,319
Speaker 2: within the United States. He's referencing other countries such as

776
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 2: the UK and England over there where you know, they're

777
00:50:45,200 --> 00:50:49,280
Speaker 2: the most CCTV cameras per capita anywhere on the planets.

778
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: He's mentioning that this stuff is very real, and why

779
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 2: aren't more of us worried about that kind of thing?

780
00:50:57,920 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 2: If you apply more general sense, what these people who

781
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 2: believe they're targeted of individuals are feeling to on a

782
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 2: mass level, let's say that.

783
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, So let's spend just a second on that concept,

784
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:23,040
Speaker 1: because it's the other side of that coin, right, It's

785
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: the other side of the argument. If you feel like

786
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: you are being gang stocked, and then you go somewhere

787
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: and you find ten thousand other people to say, yes,

788
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,319
Speaker 1: it's true, then how are you supposed to feel if

789
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,839
Speaker 1: you don't believe you're being gang stalked, and then you're

790
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: surrounded by people who are saying, yeah, no, it's true.

791
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: It's they're out for all of us. Why are you

792
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: so chill? What is wrong with you?

793
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 2: Yeah?

794
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: It's an interesting question because it hits on that It

795
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: hits on that need for consensus that is just baked

796
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,279
Speaker 1: into every human mind. I want to go back to

797
00:51:58,360 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: the concept of hypervigilant because it's another concept that is

798
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:05,720
Speaker 1: baked into the human mind, and that is a pattern

799
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:11,439
Speaker 1: must exist. Yes, and so much so many of our

800
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 1: even relatively mundane activities, especially our observations, there's this little

801
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 1: voice in her head. May not be able to hear

802
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 1: it all the time because it's tough for us to

803
00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 1: listen to ourselves, but the little voice in your head

804
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: is always going A pattern must exist, A pattern must exist, right,

805
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 1: and this is a crucial skill. We have to have

806
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: it to survive in the world. Ever since we were

807
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:41,760
Speaker 1: not the Apex predator and we were running around trying

808
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 1: to figure out what our A to b's and if

809
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: then's were that would keep us alive for the next day.

810
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:52,960
Speaker 1: So arguably hypervigilance is just a reflection of that, or

811
00:52:53,239 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: just an extension of that much needed survival skill. Now,

812
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,719
Speaker 1: if it sounds like we're poking whole in the experience

813
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:07,880
Speaker 1: of gang stalking, that's because we are asking important questions

814
00:53:07,960 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 1: that haven't been answered. It's not necessarily uniform motive. There's

815
00:53:11,960 --> 00:53:15,520
Speaker 1: not necessarily a lot of follow up. Right. There aren't

816
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 1: very many good stats on the phenomenon known as gang stalking.

817
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:24,840
Speaker 1: But speaking of the other side of the coin, there

818
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:28,959
Speaker 1: are things that are like it that are proven. The

819
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: reality of government in corporate surveillance. According to the ACLU,

820
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: privacy today faces growing threats from a growing surveillance apparatus.

821
00:53:38,880 --> 00:53:41,920
Speaker 1: It's often justified in the name of one of our

822
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 1: favorite boogeymen, national security. You can do it in a

823
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: spooky voice. A ton of government agencies I'm paraphrasing. Now,

824
00:53:52,080 --> 00:53:54,839
Speaker 1: they didn't say a ton a ton of government agencies

825
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 1: from like the NSA, the FBI, Department of Homeland Security,

826
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:01,560
Speaker 1: and so on, along with state and local law enforcement,

827
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:06,200
Speaker 1: intrude on the private communication of innocent citizens, and they

828
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:10,840
Speaker 1: amass great databases of who we talk to or interact

829
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 1: with and when we do, and then catalogs suspicious activities

830
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: based on very very vague standards. We've talked already about

831
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: big data. We've talked about the strange what's that? What's

832
00:54:23,040 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: that game? People who like celebrities play six six Degrees

833
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 1: of Kevin Bacon. Yes, that's that's how Uncle Sam traces

834
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: terrorist activities. Yeah, you know, associates, right known associates, which

835
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:44,040
Speaker 1: extends further and further out. Similar to the DPRK's policy

836
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:48,879
Speaker 1: of intergenerational punishment. Oh boy, except now you're it's now

837
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 1: the laws don't apply to you the same way. If

838
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:55,120
Speaker 1: a guy you knew in college met somebody and became

839
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: Facebook friends with them and then they later tried to

840
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 1: join isis you know what I mean? And the argument

841
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: there is that that is that hoover vacuum approach to

842
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 1: data and personal information is the best way to prevent

843
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 1: a future catastrophe, and that is I mean, that argument

844
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:20,240
Speaker 1: does have some sand, but it also it's tough to prove.

845
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: It's like the old time travel problem. Like you if

846
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:30,120
Speaker 1: you went back in time and you killed Hitler when

847
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: Hitler was a kid.

848
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: Or something, Yeah, I remember doing that.

849
00:55:33,120 --> 00:55:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, no one, No one would know that. No one

850
00:55:37,600 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: would know that you prevented him from playing a part

851
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 1: in World War two because no one would know about

852
00:55:42,640 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: World War two. You would have killed a child as

853
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 1: far as everyone was concerned, So you have committed a

854
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: great sin. We can't prove to people. It's hard to

855
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:56,479
Speaker 1: prove to people that we prevented something from happening when

856
00:55:57,239 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: we do it in such a way that it never happened. WHOA,

857
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,879
Speaker 1: I know. Sorry, it's virgin into philosophy, but it's it's

858
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,520
Speaker 1: an argument that we hear pretty often, and it's a

859
00:56:09,520 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: fascinating argument. But the truth is, these standards are very vague,

860
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 1: and we know that surveillance has been abused in the past.

861
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: Co intel was is real, right, It certainly was. It

862
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:24,800
Speaker 1: certainly was. Let's put that is in parentheses with a

863
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 1: question mark. Multiple government agencies have in the past monitored

864
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:34,240
Speaker 1: and harassed civilians, even those not suspected of committing a crime.

865
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:36,880
Speaker 1: We just don't like what this person is doing to

866
00:56:36,920 --> 00:56:39,799
Speaker 1: the status quote, we don't like what they're protesting. Let's

867
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 1: keep an eye on them.

868
00:56:40,880 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 2: We don't like the potential movement of society of this

869
00:56:44,280 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 2: person is let to be successful.

870
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: Right exactly. And today's episode has been, you know, necessarily

871
00:56:51,360 --> 00:56:55,239
Speaker 1: US centric because these we were able to find some

872
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 1: of the best stats on, you know, on orthodox stalking,

873
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 1: and then we were able to find a lot of

874
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,840
Speaker 1: information on gang stalking. But this is by no means

875
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 1: a phenomenon solely reported in the US. The United Kingdom

876
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: has a fair share of people who believe they are

877
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 1: being gang stalked or they are targeted individuals. And additionally,

878
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 1: it is absolutely true, absolutely irrefutably true, that other repressive

879
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: governments do have stuff like this happening. They have secret police,

880
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:34,439
Speaker 1: there's security agents. You're a journalist in a particularly oppressive country, yeah,

881
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:38,120
Speaker 1: you're gonna be followed. You might. I mean it's not

882
00:57:38,280 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: It might for you and them. It might not even

883
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 1: be surreptitious. You might land at the airport they do

884
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: allow you in, and they say, okay, you're gonna hang

885
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 1: with these two people the entirety, and they're gonna drive.

886
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 2: It's for your safety.

887
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:55,440
Speaker 1: It's for your safety and for our national security. This

888
00:57:55,480 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: also applies to opposition politicians, activist right, somebody fight for

889
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: a particular type of human rights that the government would

890
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: rather not have members of non state approved religions like

891
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 1: this stuff happens.

892
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to pile on here as though, like,

893
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,360
Speaker 2: oh this is all real. There's so much oppression to

894
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 2: our privacy and our security, but you know, we willingly

895
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 2: let this stuff, especially the corporate kind nowadays, directly into

896
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 2: our home. We have whole episodes on this about the

897
00:58:27,560 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 2: smart assistant that maybe you're listening to this through. Maybe

898
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 2: it's just a couple of the apps within your phone

899
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 2: where you store all your email, but it's a company,

900
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 2: a corporation, the third party from you that is controlling

901
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 2: all of that stuff. The social media posts that you

902
00:58:46,040 --> 00:58:48,440
Speaker 2: make every day of where you are and what you're doing,

903
00:58:48,480 --> 00:58:51,880
Speaker 2: and the you know, think about that, like establishing patterns.

904
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 2: We're doing that every day. That's what we do, and

905
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 2: we just let it out into the world, not only

906
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 2: for the corporation but for anybody else who cares to

907
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: watch or listen. And it also doesn't help, by the way,

908
00:59:05,320 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 2: that there are commercial applications out there that will do

909
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 2: the things that people are the most terrified about. Ooh,

910
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 2: do tell like a what's it called m spy and

911
00:59:15,480 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 2: flexy spy or two. There's just two of them. But

912
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:22,000
Speaker 2: these are two available things applications that can be added

913
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: on to your device, whatever it is. And one of

914
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:27,680
Speaker 2: them only takes a few minutes. Another one takes about

915
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,960
Speaker 2: an hour to fully install. Because you have some of them,

916
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 2: you have to like jail break phone or whatever your

917
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 2: device is it. Yeah, but if some of them you

918
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:39,200
Speaker 2: can just if let's just say I was able to

919
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 2: get hold of Paul's phone for a few minutes while

920
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 2: he went to the bathroom or something.

921
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: And you were able to get past the security code.

922
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but specifically in people who are worried about stalking,

923
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,520
Speaker 2: if you're talking about your significant other or someone who

924
00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 2: maybe does know the codes to your phone or something,

925
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,600
Speaker 2: it can be installed like that. Then you can access

926
00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 2: their email, their texts, there, insta feed there, you know,

927
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah blah. Whatever it is. It's terrifying

928
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 2: that that's out there. Don't let people touch your phone, man,

929
01:00:09,600 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 2: I mean that's the.

930
01:00:10,320 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: Rule, yes, and it's it's all true, and it can

931
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 1: easily be abused. There's another thing. We just had it

932
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 1: in the notes as.

933
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 2: Oh oh and one more thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

934
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: You didn't want to spoil the surprise. So this sounds

935
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 1: pretty sci fi. I don't want to hear whether anyone

936
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: else has heard of this, but a lot of people

937
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:36,400
Speaker 1: own smart TVs right now.

938
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,680
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, you may not even be aware that it's

939
01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 2: a smart.

940
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:43,000
Speaker 1: TV, right, Maybe a smart TV playing dumb and you

941
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: can tie your phone or you can you know, pair

942
01:00:45,520 --> 01:00:48,520
Speaker 1: your phone to the television and things of that nature.

943
01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:53,520
Speaker 1: It turns out that the technology exists such that a

944
01:00:53,880 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: smart TV. There's certain types of TVs when they are

945
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: playing commercials, will send an audio signal out. It's not

946
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: an audio signal you can hear. If you have pets,

947
01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: good for you, they probably can't hear it either, but

948
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:14,320
Speaker 1: your smart devices can. And through this, through this relay

949
01:01:14,360 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: this ping. You know. Of course, one of the big

950
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: gets is that advertisers know someone's in the room when

951
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 1: the ad is playing. And that's big. Someone's actually seen

952
01:01:23,200 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 1: the thing.

953
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 2: They can prove it, or maybe even how many.

954
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: And maybe even who. So the data is, you know,

955
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:38,240
Speaker 1: anonymized or whatever. But this this means that for people

956
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 1: who are dismissing the idea of gang stocking, don't dismiss

957
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: the idea of surveillance that you cannot perceive. It's there,

958
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 1: it's real, you know, there are It's not like there's

959
01:01:54,400 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 1: one shadowy cabal that knows a ton of stuff about

960
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: you that you thought was secret. And it's not like

961
01:02:00,920 --> 01:02:04,200
Speaker 1: you're doing anything bad. It's more like there are a

962
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:07,280
Speaker 1: bunch of people who are trying to figure out how

963
01:02:07,360 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 1: best to predict your behavior in such a way that

964
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: they can monetize your behavior or at the very sith

965
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:18,360
Speaker 1: end of the spectrum, push you to make decisions that

966
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:21,960
Speaker 1: you might not have ordinarily made. That's real. That's not

967
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: a theory. Instead of a theory, it's a huge business.

968
01:02:25,840 --> 01:02:28,040
Speaker 1: If you'd If you'd like to learn more about some

969
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 1: of this, check out article in New York Times, How

970
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:34,400
Speaker 1: Smart TVs and millions of US homes track more than

971
01:02:34,440 --> 01:02:38,439
Speaker 1: what's on tonight. That's just an opening to the rabbit hole,

972
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: and then burrow in and tell us what you think.

973
01:02:41,600 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: And speaking of what you think. Got to say this

974
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: leads us some of the key issues with the concept

975
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: of gang stalking. Number One, Government surveillance, at least here

976
01:02:52,440 --> 01:02:56,440
Speaker 1: in the US is typically intended to be invisible. That

977
01:02:56,480 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: does not apply to every other country. I don't know

978
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 1: whether it's still the case somebody mainland China tell me,

979
01:03:03,360 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 1: but for a long time, if you were using the

980
01:03:06,520 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: Internet like you're in an Internet cafe in China when

981
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 1: we talked about this on previous episode, every so often

982
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:16,480
Speaker 1: there will be a cute little cartoon police officer that

983
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 1: comes on just to let you know that the government

984
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: is monitoring your Internet usage for your safety, to keep

985
01:03:21,720 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 1: you safe, you know, national security, et cetera. The concept

986
01:03:26,240 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 1: of gag stalking argues that targeted individuals are very much

987
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 1: aware of the situation and being and having your target

988
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 1: be very much aware of the situation in normal stalking

989
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:42,760
Speaker 1: surveillance stuff or in normal surveillance at least, renders that

990
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:46,760
Speaker 1: surveillance ineffective because it changes the behavior of a target,

991
01:03:47,200 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, like how observing things can change their behavior.

992
01:03:51,720 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 1: So wait, we might rightly say, isn't the point of

993
01:03:55,880 --> 01:03:58,600
Speaker 1: this not to observe someone and gather info, but to

994
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,480
Speaker 1: interfere with their sanity, waging psyops to gaslight them and

995
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,880
Speaker 1: maybe even drive them to suicide. Sure, but there's a

996
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:07,120
Speaker 1: problem with that claim too.

997
01:04:08,160 --> 01:04:13,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we know we have proof that the government,

998
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:16,880
Speaker 2: at least in this country, and intelligence agencies that are

999
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 2: just arms of that government, have at least in the past,

1000
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:23,440
Speaker 2: done a lot more than gang stocking to terrify and

1001
01:04:23,520 --> 01:04:27,560
Speaker 2: seek vengeance against people that they perceive at least as threats.

1002
01:04:28,080 --> 01:04:30,000
Speaker 2: We know that for sure. So I mean we have

1003
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 2: to ask ourselves, like, why would a government agency with

1004
01:04:32,720 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 2: the ability to literally disappear somebody it's happened before, it's happening,

1005
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 2: I don't know if it is. It's probably happening now

1006
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: or next week, at least could it could happen. Why

1007
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:51,720
Speaker 2: would they bother to just annoy somebody? Why would they

1008
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 2: do this kind of strategy that is so long term,

1009
01:04:56,320 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 2: with so many resources, as you said earlier, that would

1010
01:05:00,080 --> 01:05:03,760
Speaker 2: be required to do it to a target like some

1011
01:05:03,880 --> 01:05:05,880
Speaker 2: of the people who believe they're being targeted.

1012
01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:10,960
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, if you can just grab a mouse and

1013
01:05:11,040 --> 01:05:13,800
Speaker 1: snap its neck, why would you play a game of

1014
01:05:13,840 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: mouse trap? Why would you have this Rube Goldberg esque thing.

1015
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 1: It could be. I'd heard some people say it is

1016
01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 1: psychological experiment, similar to some of that MK ultra stuff.

1017
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:32,080
Speaker 1: But still it's something that we would have to explain.

1018
01:05:32,240 --> 01:05:34,360
Speaker 1: It's a question you have to answer. If you think

1019
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 1: state supported intelligence agencies are just lightly in person stalking

1020
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:44,440
Speaker 1: someone in a way that is meant for that person

1021
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: to be aware of, That's that's tough. It's tough to

1022
01:05:48,000 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 1: answer that.

1023
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 2: Now. No, look before we completely discount gangstocking, maybe you

1024
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 2: are feeling that way as we're you know, talking about

1025
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:58,960
Speaker 2: all of this, which we are not saying that. So

1026
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 2: if you if that's you're feeling right now, just remember

1027
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:06,360
Speaker 2: that if you or someone else truly wants to reach

1028
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 2: someone that believes they are being gang stoked, and you know,

1029
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:13,920
Speaker 2: even if you if it's your intention is to tell them, look,

1030
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:17,120
Speaker 2: it's okay, it's not real, or something like that, the

1031
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,960
Speaker 2: one of the worst things you can do is make

1032
01:06:21,040 --> 01:06:23,640
Speaker 2: someone to feel as though they are crazy.

1033
01:06:24,080 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 1: Right, It's very unproductive.

1034
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:30,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely, so I would say an avenue, you know, and

1035
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 2: this is actually stated in the Vice documentary that we

1036
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 2: keep referencing the avenue rather should be why why do

1037
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 2: you feel like you are worth you know, being persecuted?

1038
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 2: What's happened to you? What's troubling you? You know, like

1039
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:50,080
Speaker 2: that very personal like, let's let's talk about that, Let's

1040
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 2: talk about those issues, let's start working through those because

1041
01:06:55,320 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 2: the perceived persecution, maybe from the outside perhaps is a

1042
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 2: factor of that other thing. Just just putting that out

1043
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 2: there for anybody who's extremely skeptical of this.

1044
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 1: And what do you think. Do you feel like you

1045
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:14,240
Speaker 1: have encountered something like this in your own life or

1046
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: you know what, do you want to join a protest

1047
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:21,400
Speaker 1: supporting targeted individuals? Because if you have, my good pal

1048
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 1: Matt has actually found one. Is that correct?

1049
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a website called targetedjusice dot com. If you

1050
01:07:28,240 --> 01:07:31,240
Speaker 2: head over there, you can learn about the October protest.

1051
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,919
Speaker 2: It's they're calling it the Targeted Protest twenty nineteen. It's

1052
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 2: going to run in Washington, d C. From October eighteenth

1053
01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 2: this year until the twenty second, and it's a registration

1054
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 2: is thirty five dollars. If you do want to register

1055
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 2: and go. But but but what do you get a

1056
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 2: T shirt?

1057
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 1: You do get a T shirt.

1058
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:53,560
Speaker 2: It's a free T shirt.

1059
01:07:53,640 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 1: I don't think you should call it a free T shirt.

1060
01:07:55,440 --> 01:07:58,240
Speaker 2: It's a thirty five people. It's a twenty five dollars

1061
01:07:58,280 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 2: T shirt with a ten dollars registration.

1062
01:07:59,840 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 1: It's a complementary valet. Valet is complementary if you are

1063
01:08:03,720 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 1: a jerk and don't tip.

1064
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. But anyway, it exists out there, and

1065
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:13,000
Speaker 2: there are advocates for you. If you believe you are

1066
01:08:13,040 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 2: a targeted individual, you can you can find groups online

1067
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:20,680
Speaker 2: and maybe even go to targetedusice dot com. And I'm

1068
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 2: fairly certain I saw several resources there and you can follow.

1069
01:08:24,479 --> 01:08:27,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to be clear, I'm making a cheapskate joke

1070
01:08:27,720 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: about the T shirt stuff. Registration for protests and these

1071
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:37,000
Speaker 1: kind of organizations typically just goes to keep the organization running.

1072
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 2: Yes, we're wholeheartedly joking.

1073
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:43,280
Speaker 1: It's but one thing we're serious about. Before we tell

1074
01:08:43,280 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 1: you all the ways to find us on the internet

1075
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 1: and talk to us and we hope that you engage

1076
01:08:47,439 --> 01:08:50,599
Speaker 1: in one of those platforms with us, before we get

1077
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:52,679
Speaker 1: to that part, we have to tell you the most

1078
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 1: important part of this episode, the thing we absolutely one

1079
01:08:57,439 --> 01:09:02,240
Speaker 1: one hundred one percent will never joke about. If you

1080
01:09:02,360 --> 01:09:05,960
Speaker 1: believe that you are a victim of stalking, doesn't matter

1081
01:09:06,000 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: whether it's from a gang, a significant other, romantic partner, anyone.

1082
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:16,080
Speaker 1: There are resources, there are people, there are services out

1083
01:09:16,080 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 1: there that will help you. You're not hopeless, you're not isolated.

1084
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 1: You don't have to be alone in this and a

1085
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:25,599
Speaker 1: solution exists.

1086
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can. You can check out the Stalking Prevention

1087
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:32,519
Speaker 2: Awareness and Resource Center. There is a Victim connect line there.

1088
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 2: It is one eight five five four eight four two

1089
01:09:37,600 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 2: eight four six. You can also check out Safe Horizon.

1090
01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,639
Speaker 2: They also have a hotline that is available twenty four

1091
01:09:43,680 --> 01:09:46,360
Speaker 2: hours a day, seven days a week, and that number

1092
01:09:46,479 --> 01:09:51,200
Speaker 2: is one eight six six six eight nine four three

1093
01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:52,120
Speaker 2: five seven.

1094
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 1: And that's our classic episode for this evening. We can't

1095
01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:00,640
Speaker 1: wait to hear your thoughts, right, let us know what

1096
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:02,400
Speaker 1: you think. You can reach you to the handle Conspiracy

1097
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:06,600
Speaker 1: Stuff where we exist on Facebook x and YouTube on

1098
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:08,639
Speaker 1: Instagram and TikTok or Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1099
01:10:08,680 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 2: If you want to call us, dial one eight three

1100
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:16,200
Speaker 2: three STDWYTK. That's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes,

1101
01:10:16,240 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if

1102
01:10:18,439 --> 01:10:20,519
Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air.

1103
01:10:20,840 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 2: If you got more to say than can fit in

1104
01:10:22,439 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 2: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old

1105
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:26,000
Speaker 2: fashioned email.

1106
01:10:26,280 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 1: We are the entities to read every single piece of

1107
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:33,640
Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the

1108
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:56,120
Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1109
01:10:56,320 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production

1110
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. More podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1111
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.