Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. If I were to share with
Speaker 1: you the greatest show business comeback story in history, you
Speaker 1: might not believe it, but it's all true. My guest
Speaker 1: today was the very first black woman to be crowned
Speaker 1: Miss America, only to resign following the release of unauthorized
Speaker 1: nude photos. In the years after the scandal, she reinvented herself,
Speaker 1: building an impressive and decorated career. She released chart topping music,
Speaker 1: performed on Broadway, and starred in television and film. It
Speaker 1: could only be Vanessa Williams. Her work has earned her
Speaker 1: three Emmy nominations, eleven Grammy nominations, and a Tony nomination.
Speaker 1: She's the recipient of a Billboard Music Award and multiple
Speaker 1: NAACP Image Awards. I wanted to know how her upbringing
Speaker 1: in New York affected her trajectory and her goals.
Speaker 2: I was born in Tarrytown. I grew up in one
Speaker 2: year in the Bronx and then up here in Westchester
Speaker 2: in Millwood, which is about five miles from where I
Speaker 2: live right now.
Speaker 1: And your parents were both taught art. They were art teachers,
Speaker 1: music teachers music.
Speaker 2: Yeah, my dad was band teacher in Elmsford and my
Speaker 2: mom was the choral teacher in Austining at Claremont School.
Speaker 2: So my dad was forty two years my mom was
Speaker 2: thirty eight years.
Speaker 1: There, how many siblings.
Speaker 2: You have one younger brother who is an actor as well.
Speaker 2: He's out in LA he's four years younger.
Speaker 1: Just one you and the brothers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1: And both of you went into the arts.
Speaker 2: Yes, my brother he's done like Dodgeball, he's done Larry
Speaker 2: David's HERBYR Enthusiasm.
Speaker 1: Historical dramas. He's done historical dramas. Yeah, yes, Dodgeball, that's history.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah for a while.
Speaker 2: He's been at it for a while. Yes.
Speaker 1: Now, why the East Coast for you?
Speaker 2: I did live in the West Coast from eighty five
Speaker 2: to ninety two because you were working. I was working.
Speaker 2: I kind of left after having a struggling here in
Speaker 2: New York, you know, after being Miss America and then
Speaker 2: the scandal and then trying to you know, make my
Speaker 2: way on Broadway. And I tell a story in my
Speaker 2: book which is called You Have No Idea, which basically
Speaker 2: is a chronicle of my recollection and my Mom's kind
Speaker 2: of side by side. In the book, I talk about
Speaker 2: one particular instance where Mike Nichols was directing Tommy Tooon
Speaker 2: and Twiggy in My One and Only on Broadway, and
Speaker 2: Mike Nichols reached out to me. He said he wanted
Speaker 2: me to replace Twiggy because he knew that I was
Speaker 2: a musical theater gal and met him, had a wonderful meeting.
Speaker 2: Did the audition, Tommy taught me all the tap did
Speaker 2: the audition went well, perfectly, left the theater and Mike
Speaker 2: turned around to Lee Gershwin, who was the head of
Speaker 2: the estate in Irish Widow, and said it wasn't she terrific?
Speaker 2: Thumbs up, and then he walked back downstage and the
Speaker 2: phone was ringing by the time he got to the
Speaker 2: bottom of the stage, and it was Lee Gershwin who
Speaker 2: said to Mike Nichols, over my dead body, will that
Speaker 2: horror be in my show? And that was nineteen eighty.
Speaker 1: Five, the year after the incident.
Speaker 2: Yeah, eighty four eighty five. They wanted me to go
Speaker 2: in right after. So I didn't know exactly what she
Speaker 2: had said. I knew that I didn't get it, but
Speaker 2: I knew that I crushed the audition, and Paul Martino
Speaker 2: was my agent at the time at ICM, so it
Speaker 2: was kind of a soft not this time. But I
Speaker 2: could feel like, Okay, this has nothing to do with talent.
Speaker 2: This is way bigger and it's going to be much
Speaker 2: harder than I anticipated.
Speaker 1: Well, now that you've pivoted in that direction, we were
Speaker 1: going to get there. But no, no, no, no no, you
Speaker 1: talking about your Bucolic Westchester upbringing and instead we're having
Speaker 1: Gershwin's relatives.
Speaker 3: Calling you a whore exactly.
Speaker 1: Let's stop there, now, hold on, let me catch up.
Speaker 1: But now that you bring it up, I want to
Speaker 1: say you are someone who I'm a great admirer of yours,
Speaker 1: and I want to back it up a little bit,
Speaker 1: which is when you become Miss America. So it's a
Speaker 1: national competition. I remember, these are a Miss Universe contestants,
Speaker 1: where I always felt that the people in the some
Speaker 1: of these foreign countries, because their countries are so maybe economically,
Speaker 1: I mean, less advantage than America. You'd see some of
Speaker 1: these women winning these awards in these international competitions and
Speaker 1: you think they're going to choke to death how much
Speaker 1: they're crying, like Oh my god, they can't believe they've won.
Speaker 1: It's this big deal to them. What was the roots
Speaker 1: of you becoming Miss America? Was it a goal for you?
Speaker 1: What did you think it represented? How did that happen?
Speaker 2: Well, you talk about Bucolic roots, and the Miss America
Speaker 2: pageant itself was a bathing suit pageant on the board
Speaker 2: walk in Atlantic City back in the day, and it
Speaker 2: was still run by volunteers in Atlantic City yearly, So
Speaker 2: it wasn't this huge, huge corporation and corporate thing. And
Speaker 2: I only learned that once I ended up winning. The
Speaker 2: roots of it was. I was a Syracuse musical theater major.
Speaker 2: Aaron Sorkin was one of my classmates, by the way,
Speaker 2: and my freshman year's your core year. You can't do anything.
Speaker 2: So sophomore year I started performing. So I was in
Speaker 2: the Golden Apple, I did Frank Lesser's was Swinging on
Speaker 2: a Star. I was down at Syracuse Stage was a
Speaker 2: repertory theater and they were doing a production of a
Speaker 2: syro De Bergerac which I auditioned for and I got
Speaker 2: the part of the Orange Girl, which was a tiny
Speaker 2: little part, but it would have gotten me equity points.
Speaker 2: So I was supposed to do that after doing all
Speaker 2: these productions my sophomore year, and the local Miss Syracuse
Speaker 2: pageant kind of scouts their talent at the university. So
Speaker 2: a couple of board members had seen me in shows
Speaker 2: and one of my friends a board member, would you
Speaker 2: be interested in being in the Syracuse pageant? I said, no,
Speaker 2: absolutely not. I doam do it Syrah No got canceled.
Speaker 2: I had April free. I called my mom and said, listen,
Speaker 2: do you think I should do this Syracuse pageant? Thing?
Speaker 2: Is their money? I said yes because I'd gotten scholarships
Speaker 2: the previous two years, and she said I would go
Speaker 2: for it. So my parents didn't even come to the pageant.
Speaker 2: I bought a bathing suit down at Sibley's department store
Speaker 2: in downtown Syracuse.
Speaker 1: My cousin worked at Sibleys.
Speaker 3: You're kidding.
Speaker 2: My mom is from Syracuse, Okay, so that's where I
Speaker 2: got my stuff, and I sang a song from my
Speaker 2: performance class. My friend Tim Thayer played piano for me.
Speaker 2: I did being Good Isn't Good Enough from Hallelujah Baby
Speaker 2: that I'd performed in class, and I ended up winning
Speaker 2: Swimsuit Talent and I won Miss Greater Syracuse. So that
Speaker 2: was April of my sophomore year. Then I was on
Speaker 2: the way to States in July three months later, and
Speaker 2: you know, I'm twenty years old and I sing the
Speaker 2: same song where the same close and win that same
Speaker 2: Tim's playing for me, the same deal and I win that.
Speaker 2: So within three months, I'm already headed to Atlantic City
Speaker 2: and the local pageant gal wants to change my song
Speaker 2: to something more familiar, so I sang happy Days are
Speaker 2: here again, the Barbi Streuis end version, got an upgrade
Speaker 2: on my gown and swimsuit, and I ended up winning
Speaker 2: all within six months. So I literally had no intention
Speaker 2: of ever being Miss America, being in the pageant, and
Speaker 2: here I was getting ready for my junior year abroad
Speaker 2: in London, already put my dad deposit, my girlfriend was,
Speaker 2: my roommate was already waiting for me, and I ended
Speaker 2: up winning. So my first question when I won was
Speaker 2: now what do I do? And ah, now can go
Speaker 2: to London.
Speaker 1: So if you're a super bright and talented woman and
Speaker 1: you end up in that universe, not that there's anything
Speaker 1: wrong with it, Like you said, what do I do now?
Speaker 1: How soon after you were crowned did the scandal.
Speaker 2: Come, Well, it didn't come until I had been missing
Speaker 2: America for ten months. I had literally two weeks vacation
Speaker 2: and a month left. So but I think the biggest,
Speaker 2: biggest jolt for me being a New Yorker at twenty
Speaker 2: years old, living in Westchester, growing up in Westchester, you know,
Speaker 2: being surrounded by different cultures and my parents living through
Speaker 2: the civil rights movement making a better life. For me,
Speaker 2: that was the first time I really experienced racism on
Speaker 2: a national level. And I guess, you know, being.
Speaker 1: In this I wanted because of the scandal or.
Speaker 2: Both because I won. Because I won, This is no
Speaker 2: scandal at all. This is just me being black at
Speaker 2: twenty years old. September of nineteen eighty three, death threats.
Speaker 2: When I had my welcome home parade here, they had
Speaker 2: to have sharpshooters on the roofs of buildings because of
Speaker 2: their threats like that. And again I was so, I
Speaker 2: guess naive because I assumed that nineteen eighty three were
Speaker 2: past all that stuff, and we lived in a world
Speaker 2: this moment assume. So that was a big slap in
Speaker 2: the face and a big maturity kick in the pants
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 1: Where was any moment. I mean, maybe I'm naive, but
Speaker 1: where was any moment of someone coming up to you
Speaker 1: and saying, here's the negatives, here's the pictures you can have.
Speaker 1: Just give me tickets to every show you're in for
Speaker 1: the rest of your life. You know what I mean?
Speaker 1: That type of thing.
Speaker 2: Never one gesture, not even one gesture. It was all
Speaker 2: a betrayal. I mean I never pretended that I was perfect.
Speaker 2: I certainly I was a first Miss America that was
Speaker 2: pro era, pro choice, so I was ruffling feathers from
Speaker 2: the get go.
Speaker 1: You mean you weren't a virgin when you were Miss
Speaker 1: America exact Good God, I wasn't.
Speaker 2: So I think the betrayal is what hurt me the
Speaker 2: most because again, growing up in this small little town
Speaker 2: and a quick brief history of how these pictures ever became.
Speaker 2: I used to have the Pennysaber magazine, which we would
Speaker 2: look for summer jobs in the summer, and one summer
Speaker 2: there was a modeling registry in town, and not an
Speaker 2: agency that should have been the first clue, but a registry.
Speaker 2: And I said, well, let me go in and see
Speaker 2: whether I can be a model of the summer. And
Speaker 2: he said, well, it's going to cost this amount of
Speaker 2: money for the picture's portfolio. But I need a makeup artist,
Speaker 2: So if you want to be a receptionist and a
Speaker 2: makeup artist for the shoots. So that's what my summer
Speaker 2: job was, and ended up getting convinced later on later
Speaker 2: in the summer, you know what, I've got an idea.
Speaker 2: I'd love to shoot you. Nobody will see them, They'll
Speaker 2: be in silhouette, blah blah blah blah, all that horseshit.
Speaker 2: Then after I win, apparently he started shopping and I
Speaker 2: never saw a release for any of these photos. So
Speaker 2: he started shopping them around, apparently tried to reach out
Speaker 2: to my mother, which she doesn't remember. Then he started
Speaker 2: shopping them around and he went to Hugh Hefner first,
Speaker 2: and Hugh said, do you have a release? And he
Speaker 2: said no, and he said, well, I'm not going to
Speaker 2: do that to this woman.
Speaker 1: How decent of you you.
Speaker 2: And then he goes to Guccioni and Gucci was like, hell, yeah,
Speaker 2: bring him. So yeah, So that was so the biggest
Speaker 2: shock was I went to Crown the Miss New York
Speaker 2: in Watertown, New York, Friday the thirteenth and July and
Speaker 2: The New York Post called about Geraldine Ferrara and wanted
Speaker 2: to know what I felt about her being the first
Speaker 2: woman on the ticket great women power. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: And he said, oh, by the way, I heard from
Speaker 2: a reliable source that you're going to be on the
Speaker 2: cover of Pentause magazine in September. And I was truly shocked.
Speaker 2: I said, I have no idea what you're talking about.
Speaker 2: He said, well, it's a really reliable source. I said,
Speaker 2: I don't know what you're talking about. He said, okay,
Speaker 2: then I want print it up with the phone call
Speaker 2: my parents and I say, I don't know what's going on,
Speaker 2: but I need some help. And one of our family
Speaker 2: friends became my lawyer, and then it all all the
Speaker 2: shit hit the fan, and then I was given like
Speaker 2: a two week decision whether they were going to take
Speaker 2: the crown away or whether I wanted to resign. And
Speaker 2: I had a whole continuency of people that wanted me
Speaker 2: to fight for the crown. So when I the day
Speaker 2: of my press conference, there were people saying, fight for it,
Speaker 2: fight with with I mean, it was it was insane
Speaker 2: and why didn't you Because I just wanted to get,
Speaker 2: you know, move on move on.
Speaker 1: I mean, this really upsets me because we all had
Speaker 1: our times in the dunk tank here. How long did
Speaker 1: the downtime last before you start to crawl out of
Speaker 1: this and the wreckage of this and start to work again.
Speaker 1: And who's calling you, who's reaching out to who's the
Speaker 1: first person to say, come make a movie with me
Speaker 1: or do a show with me.
Speaker 2: Well, it took me ten years to get on Broadway,
Speaker 2: so if the scandal hit in eighty four, in nineteen
Speaker 2: ninety four is when I got a chance to be
Speaker 2: in Case of the Spider Woman on Broadway, So that
Speaker 2: was a good ten year with Then that was Cheata
Speaker 2: Rivera and I stepped in after her one year run
Speaker 2: and she went on the road and I took over.
Speaker 2: So that was glorious for me to finally say, Okay,
Speaker 2: this is what I meant to be and this is
Speaker 2: where I am. And my parents were just elated to
Speaker 2: see me, you know, have my dream come true. But
Speaker 2: prior to that, which is interesting, I'd gotten a lot
Speaker 2: of a lot of inquiries for like crap or they
Speaker 2: wanted to meet me just to say they could meet me.
Speaker 2: So there's a lot of auditions that I went I
Speaker 2: was like, they're really not going to cast me. They
Speaker 2: just want to say, oh, guess who we got in
Speaker 2: the room today. I think the first thing I did
Speaker 2: was a Partners in Crime which was which was with
Speaker 2: Lonnie Anderson and Linda Carter and we shot it in
Speaker 2: San Francisco and I was Roselle Robbins, who is a singer,
Speaker 2: and I got a chance to record a couple songs
Speaker 2: and do a number and stuff. So you know, they
Speaker 2: were there were opportunities to kind of, you know, jump
Speaker 2: on all the publicity that happened.
Speaker 1: In eighty four to ninety four. What did you do?
Speaker 2: I did television. I did One Man Ban was an
Speaker 2: off Broadway show Willa Shalatte. Jean Shallette's daughter was one
Speaker 2: of the producers, and she and James Lucine was the
Speaker 2: One Man Ban and they believed in me and said
Speaker 2: we'll give you a shot. So that was off Broadway,
Speaker 2: and from there I went to La because it was
Speaker 2: just I want to do theater and the doors were closed,
Speaker 2: so you know, I was on TJ.
Speaker 3: Hooker.
Speaker 2: I did the Love Boat.
Speaker 1: You know, you name it all My bread and butter
Speaker 1: here exactly what's funny in the brief time we've talked,
Speaker 1: you remind me of Pacino. When I interviewed Pacino, I
Speaker 1: interviewed him for school in order to go back to
Speaker 1: n Why You and graduate, I had to do a
Speaker 1: term paper about the applicability of method acting training to
Speaker 1: an actor who still had a real career in film,
Speaker 1: TV and theater. So I interviewed Al for like eight
Speaker 1: or nine hours at his house up in Westchester, and
Speaker 1: every time I would talked about movies, he changed the subject.
Speaker 1: All he wanted to talk was theater. All you want
Speaker 1: to talk about? His theater? Interesting? So you shit, you
Speaker 1: pivot to theater all the time. That's where your heart is.
Speaker 2: Well, that's where my training was, and that was my goal,
Speaker 2: you know, growing up. But believe me, my recording has
Speaker 2: kind of backdoored me into theater. And again being a
Speaker 2: recording artist, I mean, nobody wanted to sign me, and
Speaker 2: then when I got signed, you know, they would say, well,
Speaker 2: the competition is really over here. So my whole career
Speaker 2: is like, oh I didn't know she could do that.
Speaker 2: Oh I didn't know she could do that? Right, And
Speaker 2: my biggest hit, say the Best for a Last, which
Speaker 2: was number one on the charts for five weeks straight.
Speaker 2: Was a song that be Middler and barbers Streisen both
Speaker 2: turned down there people, and I got it, and I said,
Speaker 2: I'll take it. I don't know what it's not sloppy seconds,
Speaker 2: I don't know what what thirds are, but I'll take
Speaker 2: it because I knew that there was something there that
Speaker 2: I can be Our.
Speaker 3: Careers are built them.
Speaker 1: The guy that passed on the I can tell you
Speaker 1: the names of people that passed on Hunt for Red October.
Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me. How, by the way, do
Speaker 1: you teach you ever teach?
Speaker 2: I teach you NYU, but I teach in their and
Speaker 2: their vocal performance. Songwriting, yes, perfect, perfect, perfect. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, when I would teach, I'd say to people, do anything,
Speaker 1: do everything, don't be cute about it, don't be precious
Speaker 1: about what you do. I was doing a soap opera
Speaker 1: in New York and I would walk over to this,
Speaker 1: you know, back in the Pleistocene era when we had
Speaker 1: no Internet, and I would go over to the NYU
Speaker 1: Film School to the casting board. It was a corkboard
Speaker 1: with things pinned up there, and would say, wanted actor
Speaker 1: twenty to twenty five to play a bartender in this
Speaker 1: thing we're going to shoot Saturday and Sunday on the weekend.
Speaker 1: This bar is closed and I was doing this soap opera.
Speaker 1: I think it was kind of spotty at the beginning
Speaker 1: of it. So I go on the weekends on my
Speaker 1: week to go do this movie and it's, you know,
Speaker 1: this horrible independent film. But my point I say to
Speaker 1: people is don't turn your nose upon anything when you're
Speaker 1: first starting.
Speaker 2: Absolutely it makes you never know what's skill set you'll
Speaker 2: need to tap into on, you know, when you get
Speaker 2: a gig, you know, and meeting fascinating people and learning,
Speaker 2: That's what I tell Never stop asking questions, never stop
Speaker 2: learning and being curious because that's exciting, but makes you
Speaker 2: more exciting. It makes you life way more satisfying when
Speaker 2: you know you haven't you know, you're at a dinner
Speaker 2: party and you're talking to somebody that you never thought
Speaker 2: you'd be able to talk to. And that's the great
Speaker 2: thing about our profession. I've been lucky as Miss America.
Speaker 2: I've met seven presidents in my lifetime already. And those
Speaker 2: opportunities of going to the White House and dinner and
Speaker 2: sitting in the receiving line when it was Reagan. Actually
Speaker 2: that was the first big deal. When I was crowned,
Speaker 2: Reagan called me and said it was a great thing
Speaker 2: for our country. So that was like the first huge
Speaker 2: moment of my reign as Miss America. But I remember
Speaker 2: going to the White House dinner October eighteenth, nineteen eighty three,
Speaker 2: and in the lineup was Ginger Rogers, Halston, Martha Graham
Speaker 2: and I was like, oh my god, these are legends
Speaker 2: and they were just you know. I sat next to
Speaker 2: Sonny Jorgensen, the football player Jurgensen. Yes, yes, he was
Speaker 2: at my table. My mother's like, get the president's autograph
Speaker 2: on the menu, like a mom, and I did I have.
Speaker 1: She's there. That's why your mom's there, to remind you
Speaker 1: of those things you've forgotten.
Speaker 4: Exactly, Vanessa Williams.
Speaker 1: If you enjoy conversations with talented Broadway artists, check out
Speaker 1: my episode with Aldra McDonald's.
Speaker 5: No one thought that I could find her voice. What's
Speaker 5: the soprano trying to be Billie Holiday? The show opens
Speaker 5: and the first thing I do is sing, and you
Speaker 5: can tell that the audience is waiting to hear is
Speaker 5: she going to get it? And I would open my
Speaker 5: mouth and sing the first all I know is I'm
Speaker 5: in love with you. Sometimes I'd hear the audience gasp,
Speaker 5: and that's when I'd be like, okay.
Speaker 1: Aller.
Speaker 3: Is Jamin Lowe.
Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Aldra McDonald, go
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot Org. After the break, Vanessa
Speaker 1: Williams shares how Stephen Sondheim's work taught her an important
Speaker 1: lesson about the type of art she wants to make.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing.
Speaker 1: With her musical theater training, singing comes second nature to
Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams. She's released eight albums as a recording artist.
Speaker 1: Her track Colors of the Wind plays over the closing
Speaker 1: credits of the Oscar winning soundtrack to Pocahontas, and this
Speaker 1: is Williams with the number one single Saved the Best
Speaker 1: for Last from her album The Comfort Zone.
Speaker 6: But that was sad Faces Floods just went a fom
Speaker 6: sandcast you the best flat.
Speaker 1: I wanted to know how she got her start in
Speaker 1: the recording.
Speaker 2: Industry, Well, it was at Eckstein, who is Billy Eckstein's son.
Speaker 2: He got a new deal and a new label. Part
Speaker 2: of the PolyGram company back in the day, so he
Speaker 2: was the one that believed in me because a lot
Speaker 2: of people sounded thought that I sounded too Broadway or
Speaker 2: just thought that I'd be like a one hit wonder.
Speaker 2: But he legitimately knew that I could have a singing career,
Speaker 2: and he was really instrumental in getting you know, back
Speaker 2: then we had an r artists and repertoire, so you know,
Speaker 2: great and curating songs, working with hungry young producers that
Speaker 2: were eager to have their songs written and performed. And
Speaker 2: so I really have to him and my ex husband,
Speaker 2: who ended up he was my publicist when I was
Speaker 2: resigned as Miss America. He then started to manage me
Speaker 2: because I asked him because he was the only person
Speaker 2: that I really trust that knew my talent but also
Speaker 2: knew about me as my character and obviously loved me.
Speaker 2: So it was the two of them that said, you know,
Speaker 2: let's do this, Let's make her a legitimate recording artist.
Speaker 2: And I had a great run on PolyGram and then
Speaker 2: i've been I'm actually about to release It's been fifteen
Speaker 2: years since my last album, but I'm releasing new music
Speaker 2: in April. So back in the studio, dancing again, making
Speaker 2: videos and making me feel young again. And actually the
Speaker 2: song is called Legs, which is about which was inspired
Speaker 2: by Diane Carroll wrote her book called The Legs of
Speaker 2: the Last to Go. And I remember watching our Oprah
Speaker 2: and she was talking about everything kind of decays and
Speaker 2: falls and SAgs. But damn it, those legs are strong.
Speaker 2: They're still holding me up. And there's still I can
Speaker 2: still show them off in a mini skirt. There's still
Speaker 2: the last thing that I'm holding onto that's.
Speaker 1: Had great legs.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 1: Who played my mother on thirty Rock Jesus Christ, look
Speaker 1: at her.
Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you this also, which is that you've
Speaker 1: been married three times. But when you're someone who can
Speaker 1: certainly take care of themselves and you're a tough woman,
Speaker 1: you're smart, you're beautiful, you're talented, and you're tough, and
Speaker 1: when you get married, why do you get married? Why?
Speaker 2: Because I'm a romantic, I don't know. I do and
Speaker 2: I and I think that I see the best and
Speaker 2: what I can be and what we can be, and
Speaker 2: then I get disappointed on the future that I thought
Speaker 2: it was going to be and didn't turn out for it.
Speaker 1: To be as my friend says, he goes and then
Speaker 1: we turn the lights on and see everything as it
Speaker 1: really is. Yes, Yes, it's always like like when we
Speaker 1: get married, why did we get married?
Speaker 7: Like?
Speaker 1: Well, I think the marriage question is always for someone
Speaker 1: who is as self sufficient as you, and I would
Speaker 1: imagine me like you know, do I have needs emotionally?
Speaker 1: I always think about it in this business because marriage
Speaker 1: is so tough in this business. What was it like
Speaker 1: for you as a mom?
Speaker 2: Oh, I brought my kids everywhere, so I've got I've
Speaker 2: got four kids. So I had my first three with
Speaker 2: my first husband and then my last one with my
Speaker 2: second husband. But I mean I got married so the scandal.
Speaker 2: I was twenty as when I won Miss America twenty
Speaker 2: one when the scandal hit. Ended up getting married at
Speaker 2: twenty three, And partly not only because we were a unit,
Speaker 2: my ex and I trying to build our life and
Speaker 2: career together. But I that's what I could control. I
Speaker 2: could control my family. I couldn't control my career. I
Speaker 2: couldn't depend on people something you can rely on exactly.
Speaker 1: So what kind of work did he do?
Speaker 2: He was a public He used to he was worked
Speaker 2: at Rogers and Cowan back in the day.
Speaker 1: I remember I was with Rodgers and Cowan.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was the first black senior
Speaker 2: vice president back in the day that he was thirteen
Speaker 2: years older than me. So my kids are very cringey
Speaker 2: now they're like, oh, mom, how could you twenty one?
Speaker 3: He was in his thirties.
Speaker 1: No, my son said the other day, he walks up
Speaker 1: to me. I'm in bed, I'm just barely waking up.
Speaker 1: My son wrote Mao books and he goes, Dad, are
Speaker 1: you going to die? And I go, no, No, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to die. I mean you have to lie
Speaker 1: to them. And I go no, I'm not going to die.
Speaker 1: He goes, but you're going to be like eighty five
Speaker 1: and then you're going to die. I go, no, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to die. I don't even think about that.
Speaker 1: Then as a pause, he goes, could you give mom
Speaker 1: your Apple pass code? Can I give mom my Apple pass?
Speaker 1: How old does the arrange your kids?
Speaker 7: Now?
Speaker 1: They're how old?
Speaker 2: So Melanie is thirty six, Jillian is thirty four, Devin
Speaker 2: my son is thirty, and then Sasha is twenty three.
Speaker 1: And we're the three older ones. Are they in the biz?
Speaker 2: So my oldest works in Westchester in the city's Bodies Instructor.
Speaker 2: My middle is a singer and she gave me a
Speaker 2: beautiful grandchild who who's two years old. And so she
Speaker 2: has her own career and her name of her band
Speaker 2: is called Lion Babe. And my son works out in
Speaker 2: LA he's in the fashion industry. And then my youngest
Speaker 2: is writing music and she's got four singles out on
Speaker 2: Apple and Spotify and all that stuff. So two in
Speaker 2: the business and two not. But they're all I'm really
Speaker 2: proud of them. And they're doing what they love and
Speaker 2: doing what they're good at and and I love having
Speaker 2: them home. That's the best.
Speaker 1: And are you finally after three trips to the plate here?
Speaker 1: Are you finally done with this romantic thing of yours?
Speaker 1: You are?
Speaker 2: I think I am done.
Speaker 1: Boyfriends are good. Boyfriends are good.
Speaker 2: Boyfriends are good, And I'm fine being by myself. I
Speaker 2: travel so much, I have so many opportunities. I you know,
Speaker 2: I would love is fun and exciting. Sex is great,
Speaker 2: haven't had in years, but waiting for that to happen again.
Speaker 3: But I you know, I.
Speaker 2: Don't have people throwing themselves at me, propositioning me. It's
Speaker 2: not as it's not as easy as you would think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but let me just say this also, which is
Speaker 1: that with someone with your theater background and your great
Speaker 1: success in the theater, have you ever thought about doing
Speaker 1: a one woman show?
Speaker 2: I have thought about it.
Speaker 1: Take credit for it. It's a great idea.
Speaker 2: Are you going to come on as producer?
Speaker 1: No kidding? You should. When Springsteen did that show and
Speaker 1: you realize that the music is obviously there and what
Speaker 1: people were waiting for what was he going to say
Speaker 1: about his life and himself? And people would have died.
Speaker 1: I mean, they love that Springsteen show. But for you
Speaker 1: to be you and to combine those things, you singing
Speaker 1: and you performing and then telling stories about all the
Speaker 1: stuff you went through and where you want, no, that
Speaker 1: would be a hit show.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have to. James Lepine asked me to do
Speaker 2: Sonjam and Sonham in twenty ten, and that was the
Speaker 2: format that it was mixed media. It was all interviews
Speaker 2: of Sondheim and then you know, with us singing. And
Speaker 2: one of the strongest moments in that show was when
Speaker 2: they cut to Sondheim and he's talking about a telegram
Speaker 2: was brought to his home and he opened it and
Speaker 2: it was a letter from his mother saying, I'm about
Speaker 2: to go into surgery for heart, my heart. I just
Speaker 2: want to say, the only regret in my life was
Speaker 2: giving birth to you. And you could hear and then
Speaker 2: and then he said, and then I knew that it
Speaker 2: wasn't about me. She couldn't give me love. It had
Speaker 2: nothing to do with me. It had to do with her.
Speaker 2: And then the stage tarts to rotate, and we started
Speaker 2: saying care but the things you're saying, children will listen.
Speaker 2: And then you hear the sobs of people just sniffling
Speaker 2: because you realize those words turned into his art. He
Speaker 2: gave us everything because of that, that relationship that he
Speaker 2: could never crack that nut. So those are the omens
Speaker 2: I mean I want. If I'm going to do a
Speaker 2: one woman show, I want that moment. I want to
Speaker 2: be able to have the audience in my hands so
Speaker 2: they can see my pain, you know, turned into art.
Speaker 2: They can see my triumph turned into art. So it's delicate,
Speaker 2: and it really is, you know, a specific task.
Speaker 1: Vanessa Williams. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell a friend
Speaker 1: and be sure to follow Here's the thing on the
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio apps, Spotify and wherever you get your podcasts. When
Speaker 1: we come back, Vanessa Williams shares with us the joy
Speaker 1: of working with Sir Elton John. I'm Alec Baldwin and
Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the thing. Theater and music are
Speaker 1: not Vanessa williams only strengths. The Triple Threat has also
Speaker 1: been featured in over one hundred TV and film roles,
Speaker 1: highlighting her impressive range. I wanted her to share how
Speaker 1: she approached her different roles on Ugly Betty and Desperate Housewives.
Speaker 2: Well, Ugly Betty was one of those shows where we
Speaker 2: were going to be a Friday night kind of for
Speaker 2: chicks because they didn't really believe that we had what
Speaker 2: it took. And we did the TCAs the Television Critics
Speaker 2: Awards panel, and after we finish our panel in Pasadena, Yeah,
Speaker 2: in Pasadena, and they said Ugly Betty, they said, you
Speaker 2: guys are the hit of the season. You guys are
Speaker 2: the best thing that we've seen. So we knew that
Speaker 2: the critics liked us. And then when we finally when
Speaker 2: we got so much momentum, they turned they changed us
Speaker 2: to Thursday night, right before Gray's Anatomy, and that kind
Speaker 2: of gave us. Yeah, that blew us up when we
Speaker 2: won the Golden Globe that year. But we you know,
Speaker 2: it was like doing a feature film every episode because
Speaker 2: we had so m much production value and costumes and
Speaker 2: runways and all kinds of fantastical stuff. It was long Friturdays,
Speaker 2: Fridays turning into Saturdays. But we loved it, and we
Speaker 2: loved each other, and we loved our script readings. As
Speaker 2: we never knew, especially I never knew what I was
Speaker 2: going to be doing the following week. What I'm pitching
Speaker 2: to Naomi Campbell and a softball game. What I'm taking
Speaker 2: a baseball bat and smashing you know, Mannekins on the
Speaker 2: roof of some here. Oh I'm having Yes, this is ugly, Betty.
Speaker 2: So it was amazing. So then going by the time
Speaker 2: I got to Desperate Housewives, and the reason I got
Speaker 2: on Desperate Housewives is I was doing Sondhaim' Sondheim and
Speaker 2: Mark Cherry is a huge Sondheim fan, so much so
Speaker 2: that every episode of Desperate Housewives is a Sondheim song.
Speaker 2: That's how big it is. It Yeah, so, uh so
Speaker 2: he saw me and Onheim Sanaim and so Onheim, and
Speaker 2: then I got a call like a week later, would
Speaker 2: she like to join our cast? And Nicolette was already gone.
Speaker 1: They needed a cast edition, so you come and you
Speaker 1: shoot that. And I worshiped Felicity. I mean, I just
Speaker 1: love Felicity to death.
Speaker 2: Love her too.
Speaker 1: I did a movie with Terry Hatcher. She came into
Speaker 1: play Eric Roberts's wife, and you found out she was
Speaker 1: the drug lord in the operation. Played a copp that
Speaker 1: was based on this famous book called Heaven's Prisoners that
Speaker 1: Phil Juano directed, and she was the villainous and none
Speaker 1: of us thought that she would really be able to
Speaker 1: get there in terms of the extremes of intensity and ugliness.
Speaker 1: And she was good.
Speaker 4: She was damn good.
Speaker 1: She came in there and she was ready to hit
Speaker 1: and be hit and fight, and she was scrappy. And
Speaker 1: we did this movie, Heavens Prisoners, and Terry was damn
Speaker 1: good in that movie, and I wanted to do a
Speaker 1: project with Felicity. How different was that experience?
Speaker 2: You know? I came in and they called me Switzerland
Speaker 2: because I had no beef with anybody, so I was
Speaker 2: friendly with everybody. I had worked with Terry Hatcher previously
Speaker 2: because we used to do these radio shack commercials back
Speaker 2: in the day. So it is Terry and Howie Long
Speaker 2: and me and Ving Rains, the black and the White couple,
Speaker 2: and we would do, you know, product commercials for the
Speaker 2: radio shack together. So that's I knew her from back
Speaker 2: in the day. But it was easy and talking about clockwork,
Speaker 2: absolute in and out. Craziest days. Mark would come and
Speaker 2: give us pretty much line readings across the board and
Speaker 2: then take off to the writer's room, so we all
Speaker 2: knew what was going on even though their market. Yes,
Speaker 2: very very hands on.
Speaker 1: You only do that. Are you recurring a couple of
Speaker 1: years of recurring on that show?
Speaker 4: I was.
Speaker 2: I was for regular for two seasons and then they
Speaker 2: were killed. I guess no, no, no, I got married, and then.
Speaker 3: The show was you got killed, kidnapped, you got married.
Speaker 3: I got one of the three.
Speaker 1: What are you working on now?
Speaker 2: I Am about to go across the pond to do
Speaker 2: devilwares Prada on the West End.
Speaker 1: I've read that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Jerry Mitchell is directing and doing the choreography,
Speaker 2: and Elton John's writing the music and he wrote two
Speaker 2: songs for me already, which is incredible, and it's all
Speaker 2: British cast over there and we're at the Dominion Theater.
Speaker 2: We open our first player, Rand Priestley. Yes I am yeah.
Speaker 2: October twenty fourth we start and I'll be there for
Speaker 2: at least for a year. We're doing our out of
Speaker 2: town in Plymouth, which I guess is the southwest portion
Speaker 2: of England. So we're out of town end of June
Speaker 2: through mid August.
Speaker 1: So this is they're workshopping this and working this is new.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're going to create this role? Yes?
Speaker 1: What is greater? What is more powerful and more? The
Speaker 1: thing you want in this business, the one thing you
Speaker 1: especially if you can sing like you and dance, you
Speaker 1: want to create a role in originate a role. How
Speaker 1: lucky are you?
Speaker 2: Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Did you flip that when they told you that?
Speaker 2: Well, I knew that. Jerry kind of gave me a
Speaker 2: heads up. They had done a production in Chicago a
Speaker 2: couple of years ago and it did not do well
Speaker 2: at all. Different cast, different director, and Kevin McCollum, the producer,
Speaker 2: called in Jerry and said, listen, I needed to see this.
Speaker 2: I needed to help me out. What do you think?
Speaker 2: And Jerry said, I will do it, but I want
Speaker 2: complete control whole new team, and I want to make
Speaker 2: sure that Elton will write me some new music. And
Speaker 2: Elton was doing the Yellowpic road tour at the time,
Speaker 2: so he was, you know, really really busy, but he
Speaker 2: promised and he did. So I had demos of Elton,
Speaker 2: you know, singing the new stuff, and then I got
Speaker 2: a chance to hear Jerry's vision. And then when we're
Speaker 2: in the room for two weeks, Elton was so happy.
Speaker 2: He said, I wanted to kill myself in Chicago. Now
Speaker 2: I'm really really happy, and just like, you know, just
Speaker 2: to give a little smidgeon of what it's going to
Speaker 2: look like. So Jerry said, in the other production there
Speaker 2: was no fashion, and it's about the world of fashion.
Speaker 2: So he's got all these built in runway production numbers
Speaker 2: happening and act too. When Miranda goes to Paris and
Speaker 2: they're trying to oust her, there's a song that she
Speaker 2: sings called stay on Top, and we haven't obviously, we
Speaker 2: haven't staged it yet, but he told me that what
Speaker 2: he's gonna do is he has got a passer l
Speaker 2: in front of the stage and we will be sitting
Speaker 2: as if we're sitting and watching a runway show and
Speaker 2: I'll have my glasses on and he's going to have
Speaker 2: the girls start and then have everybody freeze and have
Speaker 2: me start. You think that I can't see you sitting
Speaker 2: there with Glee Ega for the ending You've been waiting
Speaker 2: years to see. Today she's getting ousted. Yes, her final
Speaker 2: hour's nigh. Miranda's rain has run its course, that's.
Speaker 7: What you think, Oh my, and then it goes into
Speaker 7: like a total banger, and it's like this techno, it's
Speaker 7: going to be incredible.
Speaker 1: Now I want to say, my god. I mean, here
Speaker 1: you are. It brings me to tears. Almost here you
Speaker 1: are having to deal with because when all of us
Speaker 1: deal with something painful in your career, when you fall down,
Speaker 1: they watch you fall down, but the first words out
Speaker 1: of their mouth after them is what's she going to do?
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember Michelle Pfeiffer had that great quote.
Speaker 1: She said, the acting's free. You pay me for all
Speaker 1: the other crap I got to put up with, you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure other people have said that. But when
Speaker 1: they knock you down, then they look at you and
Speaker 1: they're like, what's she going to do? And to think
Speaker 1: that you're about to go do this project, this great,
Speaker 1: great project are they're talking it all about when the
Speaker 1: opening would be, what month in the fall.
Speaker 2: The opening night is December first, and that's that coincide
Speaker 2: with Elton's Big Aide benefit ball. So we're doing a
Speaker 2: command performance for that, but in London, in London at
Speaker 2: the Dominion yet but our first shows are October twenty fourth.
Speaker 2: We start at the Dominion. Yeah, I'm going to camp it, come.
Speaker 1: Come any I want to say thank you. I am
Speaker 1: a huge fan of yours. I'm a huge fan of yours.
Speaker 1: You are this incredibly talented. You're such a bright and
Speaker 1: interesting and beyond your physical beauty, you're just such a
Speaker 1: great actress.
Speaker 2: And we're fellow board members too. I see you at
Speaker 2: the Roundabout board all of our boards.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but you're but I wish you the best
Speaker 1: of luck with us. When do you leave your head
Speaker 1: over there?
Speaker 2: When mid May we start rehearsals.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, my great pleasure.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, Alec, thank you.
Speaker 4: My thanks to Vanessa Williams.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Kathleen Brusso, Zach Macnice, and
Speaker 1: Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. Our social media
Speaker 1: manager is Danielle Gingrich. Here's the Thing is recorded at
Speaker 1: CDM Studios in New York. I'm ALC. Baldwin. Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio completely