WEBVTT - Steven Van Zandt Knows the Right Moves 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:05.280 I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:10.160 Thing from My Heart Radio. A few performers cross over 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:14.080 from one artistic medium to another and achieved great success 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:18.400 in both. My Guest Today Stephen van zandt known as 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:23.320 Little Stephen to some, is one such performer. Singer, songwriter, 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:27.360 and producer. Van Zand first found fame as a member 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:31.280 of the Eastreet Band with Bruce Springsteen, but this prolific 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:35.280 musician also founded New Jersey's own Southside Johnny and the 0:00:35.320 --> 0:00:39.680 Asbury Jukes, along with his solo project Little Stephen and 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.680 the Disciples of Soul. In a surprising second act, van 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.840 Zand starred as the inimitable Silvio Dante in The Sopranos 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:53.440 for nine years with no prior acting experience. It was 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:57.680 a role that certainly made its mark on me. There 0:00:57.760 --> 0:01:00.120 was a period of my life of about three or 0:01:00.200 --> 0:01:03.720 four years where I was divorced, I had my daughter. 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:07.960 I needed stability in my life. Sunday night, I watched 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:11.800 sixty Minutes nine o'clock, I watched You. Ten o'clock, I 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:14.920 watched Big Love, and then I went to bed. And 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:19.039 any show you watch, it gets in your skin. And 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:22.520 my friend and I we would say this line all 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.520 the time. You gotta pick your bottles, you want, you know, 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:28.399 show jobs, petos, gotta go. It's the right move too, 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:33.360 It's the right move Tea. We would walk around for 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.920 five fucking years and we'd be in a restaurant, my 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:40.559 friends and I go, waiter, I'm gonna have the chicken, 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:42.759 but I don't want to with the onions. I want 0:01:42.760 --> 0:01:45.039 the onions on the side, you understand. I want the 0:01:45.040 --> 0:01:47.920 fingering potatoes and you can hold the spinach. I don't 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.400 want the cream spinah. I just want the potatoes, onions 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.400 on the side and the chicken, all right. And my 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:55.520 friend would at me and go, it's the right move, tea. 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:58.520 We said the phase. It's the right move Tea a 0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:02.000 thousand fucking time us since I first heard you utter 0:02:02.080 --> 0:02:05.120 that on the show. I am your great fan. I 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.160 am you're a great fan. Well, I am yours. The 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:10.960 first thing I thought about when I thought about you, 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:13.440 when I was, you know, reading the stuff that research 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:15.839 we did, was that idea, Because I want to cover 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:19.119 music and acting as well. And then is it for you? 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:22.400 It's live music, You're in front of an audience and 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:25.720 you're getting all that feedback from a live audience and you, guys, 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.280 I must say, I got a pretty good feedback, got 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:31.600 a pretty good response. And then you're in a studio recording, 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:35.120 and then you're filming a television show and you bring 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.680 the language, and you bring the traditions, and you're bringing 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:41.720 the habits of the musician, the famous musician, and you 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.720 go into the TV show the set. Was it a 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:50.000 difficult transition for you? Yeah? At first, yeah, because, um, 0:02:50.720 --> 0:02:53.960 you know, acting is is a lot of trust and 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.400 I and you know, if the director is happy, you 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:58.840 got to be happy. And that was a new kind 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.920 of trust from a we're used to kind of directing 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:06.200 ourselves in the music world. And I said to myself, 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.320 how does he know if that's as good as I 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:13.720 can do it? You know, And in the music world, 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:15.440 you know, you go in the studio, you sing a song, 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.120 and you come in the control room and listen to 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:18.840 it and you say, well, you know, maybe I could, 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:20.560 maybe I could do it better. Let me go, let 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:23.600 me go in and try it again. Acting. You know, 0:03:23.720 --> 0:03:26.240 you act, and then you see it, you know, eight 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:30.359 months later and it's like, jeez, uh, I probably could 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:32.600 have done that a little bit better if I had known. 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.000 So it just took a it took a minute to 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:38.440 just to trust the process, you know, and trust the 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:41.280 new medium, and it's a whole different trip. You were 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:46.119 born in Massachusetts, correct, correct and raised and you moved 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:50.120 to Jersey as a kid. Yeah seven, and you grew 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:55.360 up in uh, in New Jersey, and these two most notable. 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:57.200 I mean, you obviously had o the successes as a 0:03:57.240 --> 0:04:01.200 solo artist and with other bands and ensembles and stuff 0:04:01.200 --> 0:04:04.240 for the recording, but you know, you're you're identified as 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:09.360 both on television and on vinyl and c D as 0:04:10.000 --> 0:04:13.080 a son of New Jersey when you got hired by 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:14.800 Chase to do the TV show, Did that ever any 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.600 need to do with anything? Yes? Actually, first of all, 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:21.480 everybody passed on the show because he insisted on filming 0:04:21.480 --> 0:04:26.240 in New Jersey. Uh and every respectable network has said, 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:29.120 you know, we don't film in New Jersey, thank you 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:33.159 very much. Good Uh. Luckily he found he's this upstart 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:36.919 you no new guy named Hbo who had like a 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.520 football show and a couple of movies on at the time, 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:43.600 and they had the the courage to go for it, 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.799 and he was looking for a Jersey centric kind of casts, 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.440 you know, so I think that was a factor. Actually, 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.200 I always try to impress upon people. It's one thing 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.840 if you have great success in TV. It's another thing 0:04:55.880 --> 0:04:59.400 if you change the fortunes of a network. HBO was 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.000 not HBO then that they were going to They went 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:04.640 in one end of that experience, came out the other end, 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:06.599 and with sex in the City and the sopranos, it 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.840 was completely transformed. You mean, yeah, And I give him 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:13.480 full credit for having that courage, because, uh, as far 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.680 as I know, that was the first time I think 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:20.480 that a network gave complete freedom to the artist and 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:23.960 just said, go do it. You know, we trust you, 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.920 go do it. And uh no notes. You know, my 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.600 brother has been in the writing for TV his whole life, 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.080 and uh he wrote a book about it, and and 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:35.279 it's all it's like you're getting notes all the time, 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.279 you know, Uh, fixis do that, do this and that. 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:41.200 And you, of course you did your terrific TV show 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.279 and probably experienced some of that, but this was like, hey, 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:46.719 go here it is, go do it. Here's a blank slate, 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:50.280 and and David Chase had the vision to pull it off, 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:54.600 and Jimmy Gandelfini had the incredible talent to pull it off. 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.440 And I credit you know, Jeff Bucas and Chris Albrick 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.719 and uh then those guys for having a courage to 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:01.560 do it because it was a big expense at the time. 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:04.920 I remember, this was a huge investment for them. They 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:06.960 were not really spending that kind of money, you know. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.280 I called Jimmy on the phone. I did street Car 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:13.760 on Broadway with him. In I did this very kind 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:16.839 of weird, tepid little thriller with Demi More called The 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:23.200 Juror with Jimmy, and Jimmy did the show premiered Win. Okay, 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.560 so the show going. The show goes on and Jimmy 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.040 becomes certainly among the biggest TV stars of his time, 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.719 and uh, I called him up and go, Jimmy, I 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:34.080 can't believe what's happening to you. He's got you guys 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:37.920 are getting nominated and everything is going great. And I go, Jimmy, 0:06:38.080 --> 0:06:40.920 I can't tell you how proud I am of you, 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.359 how envy assam of you. This is amazing. And he 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.520 literally says to me, it's the fucking pain in the 0:06:45.800 --> 0:06:48.800 s Like I get in a van four o'clock in 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:50.680 the morning, I drive out throw Jersey four o'clock in 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:52.840 the morning. I might do real fucking days of fucking 0:06:52.880 --> 0:06:57.160 pain in my ass. But Jimmy, you just got nominated. Jimmy, 0:06:57.640 --> 0:06:59.520 you're making a deal. You're making Yeah, yeah, you know, 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.520 I honestly which just fucking huge paint in my fucking ass. 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:05.960 And he did a lot of whiny. I think, oh, 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:11.680 forget it. He quit the show every day. We're going 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:15.720 to get to that for you. For you, what was 0:07:15.880 --> 0:07:21.440 I mean music, because obviously your first iteration in American 0:07:21.520 --> 0:07:23.720 culture and what was music like for you was a kid? 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:27.200 Did you go up in a musical household? No, not really, 0:07:27.720 --> 0:07:30.920 it was just the timing happened to be that generation 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:36.840 that uh was elevated February nine, you know, nineteen four 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:42.440 by this crazy variety show on Sunday Nights, the guy 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.040 who owned Sunday Nights before the Sopranos, this crazy guy 0:07:46.120 --> 0:07:48.680 named Ed Sullivan, who, uh you couldn't make him up 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:51.640 if you tried, something like I don't know what he 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:55.160 was like Richard the Third on LSD or something, um, 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:59.160 and uh, you know, he'd have something for everybody in 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:01.160 the family, the whole him would gather around the one 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:04.480 TV and uh, you have opera for the old folks, 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:06.720 and he'd have puppets for the kids, and he'd have 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:10.320 something for the teenagers. And uh, February nine, ninety four 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:12.640 something for the teenagers was a group called the Beatles, 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:17.720 and that changed my life, at least half changed my life. 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:21.080 I always have to give credit, uh also to the 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.080 Rolling Stones, because by the time we discovered the Beatles, 0:08:24.280 --> 0:08:26.640 they were halfway through the career. You know, they were 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:30.240 going since fifty seven, going in sixty nine, really, and uh, 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:34.319 by sixty four they were extremely sophisticated. I mean they 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:38.560 were just superb that the harmony was perfect, hair, the clothes, 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.720 everything was just perfect. So they revealed this new world 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:45.319 to us. But um, it didn't exactly you know, you 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:48.040 didn't exactly look at it and say, geez. Even though 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.240 this gives me hope because I'm a freak and I 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:53.599 don't fit into society anywhere I can I look you 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:58.000 that it does give me hope. Yeah, but um, you 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.160 didn't exactly say geez, I think I can do that. Luckily, 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.120 four months later Rolling Stones come. They don't have any 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.480 harmony at all. Really, they don't, you know, the hair 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:09.040 is messed up, except for Brian Jones. They have wearing 0:09:09.040 --> 0:09:11.360 wherever they feel like. They made it look like, they 0:09:11.360 --> 0:09:12.840 made it look easier than it was. They were the 0:09:12.880 --> 0:09:16.440 first punk band, really, and so the way I like 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:18.640 to put it as the Beatles revealed a new world 0:09:18.720 --> 0:09:22.040 to us, and the Rolling Stones invited us in. I 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.560 love when Jagger does the induction of the Beatles into 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:27.280 the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, when he says 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:30.360 he talks about someplace they were performing back in the 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:32.480 old days, maybe in Liverpool, and he says, in there 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:37.960 they were in the audience, the foreheaded Monster, John Paul, 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.240 Georgia Ringo. They never went anywhere without the others. And 0:09:41.280 --> 0:09:45.600 they have these full length leather dusters. Is leather coats 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.920 on and he said an I said to myself, if 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.240 I've got to learn to write songs and they in 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:53.800 order to be able to afford I love that line. 0:09:53.960 --> 0:09:56.720 If I've got to learn to write songs in order 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:58.480 to be able to afford a coat like that, I'm 0:09:58.480 --> 0:10:01.960 gonna learn to write music. Well, well, good for you. 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.160 I'm glad the world benefited from that. But but for you, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:09.000 the Beatles, and for for for all of us. I mean, 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:12.120 I'm a Beatles addict. My wife had The greatest line 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.320 that my wife said was to Paul, you guys really 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:16.720 are of the original boy band. You guys are the 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:19.920 first boy band when you think about and McCartney system 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.360 my wife, he's so clever, he says to he says, well, really, 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:28.600 that's somewhat true. But we had to play our instruments 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:33.760 while we were doing our wiggling, and they only had 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.840 to sing and wiggle. So it was a bit harder 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:39.200 for us because we had to play the guitar and 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:43.280 the drums while we were wiggling, and we were howling laughing, 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:45.880 you know. But but for you when you when you 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:52.760 are playing music and you pick up one instrument first guitar, yeah, 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:57.239 how old. Well, just before the Beatles came, my grandfather 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.440 was showing me the Italian a little song from his 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.840 village in Calabria. Um, I don't know if each town 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.920 had a little theme song or what, but he showed 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:11.040 me this song from his village. So I started to 0:11:11.120 --> 0:11:13.640 play just a couple of months before they came, So 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:15.800 I got a little bit of a head start to 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:20.160 play guitar. Yeah, and when and when you're a kid 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.880 and you're playing the guitar. Are you dreaming of playing 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.200 music in a band or you dreaming of having even 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.640 uh an ounce of the Beatles success, Did you want 0:11:30.679 --> 0:11:33.840 to go into music when you were very young? No? No, no, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.200 it's strictly a Beatle thing. It was strictly see keep 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:39.760 in mind, and I know people find it hard to believe, 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:44.160 but the Beatles introduced the concept of bands to us. 0:11:44.559 --> 0:11:47.600 There were no bands. If you went through high school dance, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.960 it was an instrumental group, you know, there was There 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.120 wasn't four or five guys singing and playing. You didn't 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:59.880 see it. It was soloists. Elvis, all the pioneers really, 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:02.800 you know, except for the cricket. Other than the crickets, 0:12:02.960 --> 0:12:06.400 you know, they were all solo acts. Uh. And by 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.600 the way, I missed that first decade of of of rock. 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:10.520 I missed the pioneers. I had to go back and 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:13.600 discover them. But but but even if I had been there, 0:12:14.440 --> 0:12:18.120 I wasn't interested in solo artists. Uh. They didn't mean 0:12:18.120 --> 0:12:19.920 anything to me. I didn't want to be in show business. 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:21.880 I didn't like show business at the time. I like 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:25.040 it now, but uh, I didn't then. You know, you're 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:27.720 building your identity and you are what you like, you know, 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:32.080 and the concept of a band is what appealed to me. 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.840 That made the difference. You know, well it's not me, 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:40.200 me me, you know, you're communicating the friendship and family 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.640 and the gang, community, the gang, the posse, all of that. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.760 That's what appealed to me. That lifestyle of doing something 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:51.000 in common with your friends. You know, there was something 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.120 that really appealed to me that way. And when do 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:56.120 you put together a band The first time? Um, soon 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:59.800 after I joined a band as a singer. Um, when 0:12:59.800 --> 0:13:02.760 I'm fifteen. And then by the time I'm sixteen, I 0:13:02.800 --> 0:13:06.520 start my own band and I'm playing guitar and singing 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:11.720 and leading the band's performing anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. We were 0:13:11.760 --> 0:13:15.440 just the luckiest generation man. I mean there were places 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:19.520 to play all over the place, all over the place. Oh, 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:22.560 that was the best time. This is the best time, man. 0:13:22.600 --> 0:13:25.480 We are are demographic was the first one to really 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.600 be catered to. So we not only had the high 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:31.120 school dances and the and the beach clubs right there, 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.480 we had teenage nightclubs built for us, which I haven't 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:39.240 seen before or since. We played all the time. We 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.680 were working all the time. I see that moment you're 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.280 on stage and you finish some blistering song, you're singing 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.880 some really really great rock song, and you guys have 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:49.360 done with a set and you come up the stage 0:13:49.360 --> 0:13:53.920 and the guys like your ginger ales. Uh yeah exactly. 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:57.160 But I mean, you know, this is the thing. It 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.360 was so new that we would never have that kind 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:03.120 of freedom again, you know, because it's the sort of 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:06.760 three stages of the rock and roll lifestyle, right, you know, 0:14:06.840 --> 0:14:10.280 there's the teenage one, which you know, then there's the 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.680 bar band world, and and then there's a professional stuff. 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.120 You know you got into the business. Well at that age, 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:21.920 the teenage world, at that time, there was no adult 0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:23.680 that's going to even pretend to tell you what to 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.480 do because they didn't get it at all. They had 0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.360 no idea, template, no, no, there was no even opinion, 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:32.200 you know what I mean. It wasn't like, oh you 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:34.320 gotta you guys gonna do this, which is which is 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:36.440 what you got. When you got to the bar band stage, 0:14:36.760 --> 0:14:39.560 you had to play the top forty. You know, that 0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.080 was a rule. We we we broke it with the Jukes. 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:45.240 We we we changed New Jersey history with south Side 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:49.520 Giantry Jukes, by not playing the top forty, by by 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.440 finding a club that was gonna close because the Rufford 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:55.520 caved in. And uh and and we said, listen, we're 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.480 not gonna charge you anything. We'll just take the door, 0:14:57.560 --> 0:14:59.360 you take the bar, but we play whatever we want. 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.640 Because they were going to close. They allowed that to happen, 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.560 and then you know, we we just got with fifty people, 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.400 then a hundred, then two hundred, and you know, the 0:15:07.480 --> 0:15:10.960 residency every Sunday night. And then they fixed the roof, 0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:13.000 and then they expanded the place and we ended up 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:15.200 with three nights a week, a thousand people at night. 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:19.479 But that was a complete change in the New Jersey 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.920 rules of of a bar band. But as teenagers, man, 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.880 it was just like complete freedom. You did whatever you wanted. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.360 You know, what was the place that was collapsing the facility, 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:34.360 Pony Sty It was Stone Pony was falling apart. Yeah 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.680 still there you guys put the new roof on Stone Pony. 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:41.720 Oh yeah, and there was you know, it was it 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:44.360 was a time when when you were making that transition 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:49.280 to trying to be become more professional. But um, we 0:15:49.280 --> 0:15:51.960 didn't want to follow the professional rules, so we wanted 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.640 to make up our own rules. My first introduction to 0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:58.040 a variety of music when I go to college, which 0:15:58.080 --> 0:16:00.320 is the real melting pot, and you really get your 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.360 cultural chiropractic adjustment when you walk into college with a 0:16:04.360 --> 0:16:07.480 bunch of people from different regions and there's all these 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.080 guys from South Jersey and Philly and they were all 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.200 Asbury Jukes freaks. There I'm I'm listening to I didn't 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:17.200 know who Boz Scaggs was, and I'm listening to, you know, 0:16:17.680 --> 0:16:22.040 Bob Skaggs, Silk degrees, all this stuff. Dan Fogelberg, I 0:16:22.120 --> 0:16:24.920 never had a whiff of but these guys were like 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.040 the South Side Johnny Asbury Dukes freaks. These were all 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.240 South Jersey guys who just craved that music. And you 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:33.200 wind up doing that for how long? How long are 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:37.000 you in that? Dan? And the initial run well something 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:43.080 like seventy four seventy five, probably at the most two years. 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:46.560 But I stayed involved and produced the first three albums, 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:49.920 so I was involved right through seventy eight. But by 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:55.040 seventy end of seventy five, I think Bruce decided, uh, 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:56.680 he was hanging out with us because his first two 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.760 records didn't do anything, and he couldn't work, so he 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:02.840 was a night with us and and and it was 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:04.640 he was about to put on his third album, Born 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:08.360 to Run, and decided, one last shot, he was gonna 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.840 try fronting the band for a minute, just to see 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.560 if that made any difference, because he just was kind of, 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.920 you know, on the edge of you know, big trouble 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.240 at that point. So he said, come on out and 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:22.439 play guitar. I'm gonna I'm gonna front the band. So 0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.320 I got seven gigs booked, so I decided, you know, 0:17:26.840 --> 0:17:28.520 I'm gonna do that, and I just wanted to get 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.000 out of town, you know, because I was not only 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.800 leading the band, but I was also managing the band, 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.960 the Jukes anyway, so um, you know, I went out 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:40.399 with Bruce and him fronting the band did make a 0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:43.960 big difference, actually, and and we started to break through. 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.800 And uh, I went for seven gigs and stayed seven years. 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.520 But um, um Jukes. I wasn't actually in the band 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:55.520 that long, maybe two years or so. But when you 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:59.000 say managing the band and producing records, did you find 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.840 it managing for you? Did you find any kind of 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:06.120 managerial role? Was it tough for you. Yeah, I can't 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:09.240 do naturally. You didn't well, it did come to me naturally, 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:11.080 but I didn't really like it. I don't. I don't 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:15.720 enjoy business in general. I don't enjoy the whole negotiating process. 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:18.320 So I tend to be just upfront about, Look, this 0:18:18.400 --> 0:18:21.280 is what's needed here. If you don't want to do it, 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.480 you know, I'll go. I'll go elsewhere. I'm always willing 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:25.800 to walk away. I don't feel like I didn't need 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:29.640 anybody that badly, you know, or any deal that badly, 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:31.359 So that kind of gives you a bit of an 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:34.760 edge right away. You know, I don't need anybody or anything, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:37.560 you know, And and and I and I communicate that, 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.560 or at least you pretend you don't need them very effectively. 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.280 You're good at pretending you don't need Yeah, that's ye. 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:47.560 You and I may have that incoming. I profess I 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:49.840 don't need anyone or anything. You can all go. Funck 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:53.680 is the Irish goodbye. You see, Irish goodbye, go fund yourself. 0:18:54.119 --> 0:18:55.600 And I'm at here. We don't even say that. We 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.760 leave the party. Getting maneuver is the Irish goodbye. Yes, 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:04.480 and and uh, it's not exactly a completely uh fraud. 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.359 Because if you're a writer, you know, you tend to 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.760 be um pretty independent. You know, you can be. I 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:16.280 mean nobody nobody's completely independent. Of course, we all need uh, 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.119 we all need distribution of our work one way or 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:21.600 the other. But you can be quite independent if you're 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:24.240 a writer first. You know, I'm a writer producer first, 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:27.560 you know. And so when it comes to performing, that's 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.680 just like a vacation for me that you know, whether 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:33.159 it's acting or whether it's being a rock star on stage, 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:36.240 you know, uh, that stuff is just nothing but fun 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.560 for me. The real work is looking at a blank 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:42.199 piece of paper and creating something from it. You know, 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.480 where's the first time you met Springsteen? Where were you 0:19:46.520 --> 0:19:50.359 in your first laid eyes on him? The day before 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.880 the Beatles played at Sullivan, there wasn't one band in America. 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.880 The day after, everyone had a band in their garage. 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:01.280 I mean literally everyone. It was the most It was 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.800 incredible cultural impact, and not just for the musicians, by 0:20:04.840 --> 0:20:08.440 the way. I mean after that, when kids were going 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.639 out at night, you went and saw a band, you know, 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.000 if you didn't go to drive in, you know, to 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:16.840 the movies, you went and saw a boat. I mean 0:20:17.320 --> 0:20:18.840 that that was it. That was what you did with 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.080 your free time. I mean, so the Beatles created more 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.760 than just a world, a new world for musicians. It 0:20:25.800 --> 0:20:27.879 was a it was a new social world for everybody. 0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:32.080 You know, really it really was. I mean that's no exaggeration. 0:20:32.600 --> 0:20:34.760 So you made him where well, you know, like I said, 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.680 everybody had a band the next day, and mercifully most 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.879 of them stayed in the garage, but uh, about a 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.600 dozen of us got out there into the circuit, and 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:44.960 he was one of them, and I was one of them. 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.080 I had my band, The Source, and he had his band, 0:20:47.280 --> 0:20:50.840 the cast Heels, And we met each other on the circuit, 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:52.960 which was made up of all of those places I 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.399 said before you know, v W vf W halls and 0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.680 uh and all of that, and we'd have band battles, 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:01.560 you know, every month or so there'd be a band battle, 0:21:01.680 --> 0:21:04.600 you know. Um, But I on the weekends, I started 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:06.760 going up to the village, going to the Cafe Wah 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.840 on Saturday afternoons where there was bands one one after 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.200 the other. And they were all about a year ahead 0:21:13.200 --> 0:21:16.840 of us in New in New Jersey because in those days, um, 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:19.560 a lot happened very quickly. You know, the time was 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:23.800 very different. The whole chronological time was a completely different 0:21:23.840 --> 0:21:26.960 animal than now. I mean, five years goes by now 0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.680 and nothing happens. You know. Back then, every three or 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:33.040 four or five months, something major was happening, you know, 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.240 So so you go up and try and you know, 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.679 keep up and get ahead of what was happening. And 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:41.000 so I go up and steal ideas and bring them 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:42.680