1
00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,280
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the

2
00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:10,160
Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. A few performers cross over

3
00:00:10,560 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: from one artistic medium to another and achieved great success

4
00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,400
Speaker 1: in both. My Guest Today Stephen van zandt known as

5
00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:23,320
Speaker 1: Little Stephen to some, is one such performer. Singer, songwriter,

6
00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,360
Speaker 1: and producer. Van Zand first found fame as a member

7
00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 1: of the Eastreet Band with Bruce Springsteen, but this prolific

8
00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,280
Speaker 1: musician also founded New Jersey's own Southside Johnny and the

9
00:00:35,320 --> 00:00:39,680
Speaker 1: Asbury Jukes, along with his solo project Little Stephen and

10
00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,680
Speaker 1: the Disciples of Soul. In a surprising second act, van

11
00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:48,840
Speaker 1: Zand starred as the inimitable Silvio Dante in The Sopranos

12
00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 1: for nine years with no prior acting experience. It was

13
00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:57,680
Speaker 1: a role that certainly made its mark on me. There

14
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,120
Speaker 1: was a period of my life of about three or

15
00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:03,720
Speaker 1: four years where I was divorced, I had my daughter.

16
00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,960
Speaker 1: I needed stability in my life. Sunday night, I watched

17
00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,800
Speaker 1: sixty Minutes nine o'clock, I watched You. Ten o'clock, I

18
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,920
Speaker 1: watched Big Love, and then I went to bed. And

19
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,039
Speaker 1: any show you watch, it gets in your skin. And

20
00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:22,520
Speaker 1: my friend and I we would say this line all

21
00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,520
Speaker 1: the time. You gotta pick your bottles, you want, you know,

22
00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:28,399
Speaker 1: show jobs, petos, gotta go. It's the right move too,

23
00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:33,360
Speaker 1: It's the right move Tea. We would walk around for

24
00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:36,920
Speaker 1: five fucking years and we'd be in a restaurant, my

25
00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,559
Speaker 1: friends and I go, waiter, I'm gonna have the chicken,

26
00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:42,759
Speaker 1: but I don't want to with the onions. I want

27
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,039
Speaker 1: the onions on the side, you understand. I want the

28
00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:47,920
Speaker 1: fingering potatoes and you can hold the spinach. I don't

29
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,400
Speaker 1: want the cream spinah. I just want the potatoes, onions

30
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,400
Speaker 1: on the side and the chicken, all right. And my

31
00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:55,520
Speaker 1: friend would at me and go, it's the right move, tea.

32
00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,520
Speaker 1: We said the phase. It's the right move Tea a

33
00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:02,000
Speaker 1: thousand fucking time us since I first heard you utter

34
00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:05,120
Speaker 1: that on the show. I am your great fan. I

35
00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:09,160
Speaker 1: am you're a great fan. Well, I am yours. The

36
00:02:09,200 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 1: first thing I thought about when I thought about you,

37
00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,440
Speaker 1: when I was, you know, reading the stuff that research

38
00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,839
Speaker 1: we did, was that idea, Because I want to cover

39
00:02:15,960 --> 00:02:19,119
Speaker 1: music and acting as well. And then is it for you?

40
00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,400
Speaker 1: It's live music, You're in front of an audience and

41
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,720
Speaker 1: you're getting all that feedback from a live audience and you, guys,

42
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,280
Speaker 1: I must say, I got a pretty good feedback, got

43
00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,600
Speaker 1: a pretty good response. And then you're in a studio recording,

44
00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:35,120
Speaker 1: and then you're filming a television show and you bring

45
00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,680
Speaker 1: the language, and you bring the traditions, and you're bringing

46
00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,720
Speaker 1: the habits of the musician, the famous musician, and you

47
00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,720
Speaker 1: go into the TV show the set. Was it a

48
00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:50,000
Speaker 1: difficult transition for you? Yeah? At first, yeah, because, um,

49
00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,960
Speaker 1: you know, acting is is a lot of trust and

50
00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,400
Speaker 1: I and you know, if the director is happy, you

51
00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:58,840
Speaker 1: got to be happy. And that was a new kind

52
00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,920
Speaker 1: of trust from a we're used to kind of directing

53
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,200
Speaker 1: ourselves in the music world. And I said to myself,

54
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:08,320
Speaker 1: how does he know if that's as good as I

55
00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:13,720
Speaker 1: can do it? You know, And in the music world,

56
00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:15,440
Speaker 1: you know, you go in the studio, you sing a song,

57
00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,120
Speaker 1: and you come in the control room and listen to

58
00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,840
Speaker 1: it and you say, well, you know, maybe I could,

59
00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:20,560
Speaker 1: maybe I could do it better. Let me go, let

60
00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,600
Speaker 1: me go in and try it again. Acting. You know,

61
00:03:23,720 --> 00:03:26,240
Speaker 1: you act, and then you see it, you know, eight

62
00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,359
Speaker 1: months later and it's like, jeez, uh, I probably could

63
00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,600
Speaker 1: have done that a little bit better if I had known.

64
00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,000
Speaker 1: So it just took a it took a minute to

65
00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,440
Speaker 1: just to trust the process, you know, and trust the

66
00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:41,280
Speaker 1: new medium, and it's a whole different trip. You were

67
00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:46,119
Speaker 1: born in Massachusetts, correct, correct and raised and you moved

68
00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,120
Speaker 1: to Jersey as a kid. Yeah seven, and you grew

69
00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:55,360
Speaker 1: up in uh, in New Jersey, and these two most notable.

70
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you obviously had o the successes as a

71
00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,200
Speaker 1: solo artist and with other bands and ensembles and stuff

72
00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:04,240
Speaker 1: for the recording, but you know, you're you're identified as

73
00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,360
Speaker 1: both on television and on vinyl and c D as

74
00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,080
Speaker 1: a son of New Jersey when you got hired by

75
00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:14,800
Speaker 1: Chase to do the TV show, Did that ever any

76
00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,600
Speaker 1: need to do with anything? Yes? Actually, first of all,

77
00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:21,480
Speaker 1: everybody passed on the show because he insisted on filming

78
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:26,240
Speaker 1: in New Jersey. Uh and every respectable network has said,

79
00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: you know, we don't film in New Jersey, thank you

80
00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:33,159
Speaker 1: very much. Good Uh. Luckily he found he's this upstart

81
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,919
Speaker 1: you no new guy named Hbo who had like a

82
00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 1: football show and a couple of movies on at the time,

83
00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:43,600
Speaker 1: and they had the the courage to go for it,

84
00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,799
Speaker 1: and he was looking for a Jersey centric kind of casts,

85
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:50,440
Speaker 1: you know, so I think that was a factor. Actually,

86
00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 1: I always try to impress upon people. It's one thing

87
00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,840
Speaker 1: if you have great success in TV. It's another thing

88
00:04:55,880 --> 00:04:59,400
Speaker 1: if you change the fortunes of a network. HBO was

89
00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,000
Speaker 1: not HBO then that they were going to They went

90
00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,640
Speaker 1: in one end of that experience, came out the other end,

91
00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:06,599
Speaker 1: and with sex in the City and the sopranos, it

92
00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,840
Speaker 1: was completely transformed. You mean, yeah, And I give him

93
00:05:09,920 --> 00:05:13,480
Speaker 1: full credit for having that courage, because, uh, as far

94
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,680
Speaker 1: as I know, that was the first time I think

95
00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,480
Speaker 1: that a network gave complete freedom to the artist and

96
00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,960
Speaker 1: just said, go do it. You know, we trust you,

97
00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,920
Speaker 1: go do it. And uh no notes. You know, my

98
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,600
Speaker 1: brother has been in the writing for TV his whole life,

99
00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,080
Speaker 1: and uh he wrote a book about it, and and

100
00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:35,279
Speaker 1: it's all it's like you're getting notes all the time,

101
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:38,279
Speaker 1: you know, Uh, fixis do that, do this and that.

102
00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,200
Speaker 1: And you, of course you did your terrific TV show

103
00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,279
Speaker 1: and probably experienced some of that, but this was like, hey,

104
00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,719
Speaker 1: go here it is, go do it. Here's a blank slate,

105
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,280
Speaker 1: and and David Chase had the vision to pull it off,

106
00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,600
Speaker 1: and Jimmy Gandelfini had the incredible talent to pull it off.

107
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,440
Speaker 1: And I credit you know, Jeff Bucas and Chris Albrick

108
00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 1: and uh then those guys for having a courage to

109
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,560
Speaker 1: do it because it was a big expense at the time.

110
00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:04,920
Speaker 1: I remember, this was a huge investment for them. They

111
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:06,960
Speaker 1: were not really spending that kind of money, you know.

112
00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,280
Speaker 1: I called Jimmy on the phone. I did street Car

113
00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,760
Speaker 1: on Broadway with him. In I did this very kind

114
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,839
Speaker 1: of weird, tepid little thriller with Demi More called The

115
00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 1: Juror with Jimmy, and Jimmy did the show premiered Win. Okay,

116
00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,560
Speaker 1: so the show going. The show goes on and Jimmy

117
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,040
Speaker 1: becomes certainly among the biggest TV stars of his time,

118
00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,719
Speaker 1: and uh, I called him up and go, Jimmy, I

119
00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,080
Speaker 1: can't believe what's happening to you. He's got you guys

120
00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,920
Speaker 1: are getting nominated and everything is going great. And I go, Jimmy,

121
00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,920
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how proud I am of you,

122
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:43,359
Speaker 1: how envy assam of you. This is amazing. And he

123
00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,520
Speaker 1: literally says to me, it's the fucking pain in the

124
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,800
Speaker 1: s Like I get in a van four o'clock in

125
00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,680
Speaker 1: the morning, I drive out throw Jersey four o'clock in

126
00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,840
Speaker 1: the morning. I might do real fucking days of fucking

127
00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:57,160
Speaker 1: pain in my ass. But Jimmy, you just got nominated. Jimmy,

128
00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,520
Speaker 1: you're making a deal. You're making Yeah, yeah, you know,

129
00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,520
Speaker 1: I honestly which just fucking huge paint in my fucking ass.

130
00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:05,960
Speaker 1: And he did a lot of whiny. I think, oh,

131
00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:11,680
Speaker 1: forget it. He quit the show every day. We're going

132
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,720
Speaker 1: to get to that for you. For you, what was

133
00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:21,440
Speaker 1: I mean music, because obviously your first iteration in American

134
00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:23,720
Speaker 1: culture and what was music like for you was a kid?

135
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,200
Speaker 1: Did you go up in a musical household? No, not really,

136
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 1: it was just the timing happened to be that generation

137
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 1: that uh was elevated February nine, you know, nineteen four

138
00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:42,440
Speaker 1: by this crazy variety show on Sunday Nights, the guy

139
00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,040
Speaker 1: who owned Sunday Nights before the Sopranos, this crazy guy

140
00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,680
Speaker 1: named Ed Sullivan, who, uh you couldn't make him up

141
00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,640
Speaker 1: if you tried, something like I don't know what he

142
00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,160
Speaker 1: was like Richard the Third on LSD or something, um,

143
00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, he'd have something for everybody in

144
00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,160
Speaker 1: the family, the whole him would gather around the one

145
00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,480
Speaker 1: TV and uh, you have opera for the old folks,

146
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:06,720
Speaker 1: and he'd have puppets for the kids, and he'd have

147
00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 1: something for the teenagers. And uh, February nine, ninety four

148
00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:12,640
Speaker 1: something for the teenagers was a group called the Beatles,

149
00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:17,720
Speaker 1: and that changed my life, at least half changed my life.

150
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,080
Speaker 1: I always have to give credit, uh also to the

151
00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:24,080
Speaker 1: Rolling Stones, because by the time we discovered the Beatles,

152
00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,640
Speaker 1: they were halfway through the career. You know, they were

153
00:08:26,640 --> 00:08:30,240
Speaker 1: going since fifty seven, going in sixty nine, really, and uh,

154
00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 1: by sixty four they were extremely sophisticated. I mean they

155
00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:38,560
Speaker 1: were just superb that the harmony was perfect, hair, the clothes,

156
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,720
Speaker 1: everything was just perfect. So they revealed this new world

157
00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,319
Speaker 1: to us. But um, it didn't exactly you know, you

158
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,040
Speaker 1: didn't exactly look at it and say, geez. Even though

159
00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:50,240
Speaker 1: this gives me hope because I'm a freak and I

160
00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:53,599
Speaker 1: don't fit into society anywhere I can I look you

161
00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 1: that it does give me hope. Yeah, but um, you

162
00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 1: didn't exactly say geez, I think I can do that. Luckily,

163
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 1: four months later Rolling Stones come. They don't have any

164
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,480
Speaker 1: harmony at all. Really, they don't, you know, the hair

165
00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,040
Speaker 1: is messed up, except for Brian Jones. They have wearing

166
00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:11,360
Speaker 1: wherever they feel like. They made it look like, they

167
00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:12,840
Speaker 1: made it look easier than it was. They were the

168
00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:16,440
Speaker 1: first punk band, really, and so the way I like

169
00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,640
Speaker 1: to put it as the Beatles revealed a new world

170
00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,040
Speaker 1: to us, and the Rolling Stones invited us in. I

171
00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,560
Speaker 1: love when Jagger does the induction of the Beatles into

172
00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,280
Speaker 1: the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, when he says

173
00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:30,360
Speaker 1: he talks about someplace they were performing back in the

174
00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:32,480
Speaker 1: old days, maybe in Liverpool, and he says, in there

175
00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:37,960
Speaker 1: they were in the audience, the foreheaded Monster, John Paul,

176
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,240
Speaker 1: Georgia Ringo. They never went anywhere without the others. And

177
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:45,600
Speaker 1: they have these full length leather dusters. Is leather coats

178
00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,920
Speaker 1: on and he said an I said to myself, if

179
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 1: I've got to learn to write songs and they in

180
00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:53,800
Speaker 1: order to be able to afford I love that line.

181
00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,720
Speaker 1: If I've got to learn to write songs in order

182
00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,480
Speaker 1: to be able to afford a coat like that, I'm

183
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:01,960
Speaker 1: gonna learn to write music. Well, well, good for you.

184
00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:05,160
Speaker 1: I'm glad the world benefited from that. But but for you,

185
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 1: the Beatles, and for for for all of us. I mean,

186
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 1: I'm a Beatles addict. My wife had The greatest line

187
00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,320
Speaker 1: that my wife said was to Paul, you guys really

188
00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,720
Speaker 1: are of the original boy band. You guys are the

189
00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:19,920
Speaker 1: first boy band when you think about and McCartney system

190
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:23,360
Speaker 1: my wife, he's so clever, he says to he says, well, really,

191
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:28,600
Speaker 1: that's somewhat true. But we had to play our instruments

192
00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:33,760
Speaker 1: while we were doing our wiggling, and they only had

193
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:36,840
Speaker 1: to sing and wiggle. So it was a bit harder

194
00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,200
Speaker 1: for us because we had to play the guitar and

195
00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,280
Speaker 1: the drums while we were wiggling, and we were howling laughing,

196
00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:45,880
Speaker 1: you know. But but for you when you when you

197
00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:52,760
Speaker 1: are playing music and you pick up one instrument first guitar, yeah,

198
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:57,239
Speaker 1: how old. Well, just before the Beatles came, my grandfather

199
00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,440
Speaker 1: was showing me the Italian a little song from his

200
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,840
Speaker 1: village in Calabria. Um, I don't know if each town

201
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,920
Speaker 1: had a little theme song or what, but he showed

202
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:11,040
Speaker 1: me this song from his village. So I started to

203
00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:13,640
Speaker 1: play just a couple of months before they came, So

204
00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,800
Speaker 1: I got a little bit of a head start to

205
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,160
Speaker 1: play guitar. Yeah, and when and when you're a kid

206
00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:23,880
Speaker 1: and you're playing the guitar. Are you dreaming of playing

207
00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,200
Speaker 1: music in a band or you dreaming of having even

208
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,640
Speaker 1: uh an ounce of the Beatles success, Did you want

209
00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,840
Speaker 1: to go into music when you were very young? No? No, no,

210
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,200
Speaker 1: it's strictly a Beatle thing. It was strictly see keep

211
00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,760
Speaker 1: in mind, and I know people find it hard to believe,

212
00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:44,160
Speaker 1: but the Beatles introduced the concept of bands to us.

213
00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,600
Speaker 1: There were no bands. If you went through high school dance,

214
00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,960
Speaker 1: it was an instrumental group, you know, there was There

215
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 1: wasn't four or five guys singing and playing. You didn't

216
00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:59,880
Speaker 1: see it. It was soloists. Elvis, all the pioneers really,

217
00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,800
Speaker 1: you know, except for the cricket. Other than the crickets,

218
00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,400
Speaker 1: you know, they were all solo acts. Uh. And by

219
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,600
Speaker 1: the way, I missed that first decade of of of rock.

220
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 1: I missed the pioneers. I had to go back and

221
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,600
Speaker 1: discover them. But but but even if I had been there,

222
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,120
Speaker 1: I wasn't interested in solo artists. Uh. They didn't mean

223
00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:19,920
Speaker 1: anything to me. I didn't want to be in show business.

224
00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:21,880
Speaker 1: I didn't like show business at the time. I like

225
00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 1: it now, but uh, I didn't then. You know, you're

226
00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:27,720
Speaker 1: building your identity and you are what you like, you know,

227
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:32,080
Speaker 1: and the concept of a band is what appealed to me.

228
00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,840
Speaker 1: That made the difference. You know, well it's not me,

229
00:12:35,840 --> 00:12:40,200
Speaker 1: me me, you know, you're communicating the friendship and family

230
00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,640
Speaker 1: and the gang, community, the gang, the posse, all of that.

231
00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:48,760
Speaker 1: That's what appealed to me. That lifestyle of doing something

232
00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:51,000
Speaker 1: in common with your friends. You know, there was something

233
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,120
Speaker 1: that really appealed to me that way. And when do

234
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,120
Speaker 1: you put together a band The first time? Um, soon

235
00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,800
Speaker 1: after I joined a band as a singer. Um, when

236
00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,760
Speaker 1: I'm fifteen. And then by the time I'm sixteen, I

237
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,520
Speaker 1: start my own band and I'm playing guitar and singing

238
00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:11,720
Speaker 1: and leading the band's performing anywhere. Yeah. Yeah. We were

239
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,440
Speaker 1: just the luckiest generation man. I mean there were places

240
00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:19,520
Speaker 1: to play all over the place, all over the place. Oh,

241
00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,560
Speaker 1: that was the best time. This is the best time, man.

242
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,480
Speaker 1: We are are demographic was the first one to really

243
00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:28,600
Speaker 1: be catered to. So we not only had the high

244
00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,120
Speaker 1: school dances and the and the beach clubs right there,

245
00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,480
Speaker 1: we had teenage nightclubs built for us, which I haven't

246
00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,240
Speaker 1: seen before or since. We played all the time. We

247
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:41,680
Speaker 1: were working all the time. I see that moment you're

248
00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:45,280
Speaker 1: on stage and you finish some blistering song, you're singing

249
00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:47,880
Speaker 1: some really really great rock song, and you guys have

250
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:49,360
Speaker 1: done with a set and you come up the stage

251
00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,920
Speaker 1: and the guys like your ginger ales. Uh yeah exactly.

252
00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,160
Speaker 1: But I mean, you know, this is the thing. It

253
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:00,360
Speaker 1: was so new that we would never have that kind

254
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,120
Speaker 1: of freedom again, you know, because it's the sort of

255
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:06,760
Speaker 1: three stages of the rock and roll lifestyle, right, you know,

256
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,280
Speaker 1: there's the teenage one, which you know, then there's the

257
00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,680
Speaker 1: bar band world, and and then there's a professional stuff.

258
00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,120
Speaker 1: You know you got into the business. Well at that age,

259
00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:21,920
Speaker 1: the teenage world, at that time, there was no adult

260
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:23,680
Speaker 1: that's going to even pretend to tell you what to

261
00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:26,480
Speaker 1: do because they didn't get it at all. They had

262
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 1: no idea, template, no, no, there was no even opinion,

263
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,200
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It wasn't like, oh you

264
00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:34,320
Speaker 1: gotta you guys gonna do this, which is which is

265
00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:36,440
Speaker 1: what you got. When you got to the bar band stage,

266
00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,560
Speaker 1: you had to play the top forty. You know, that

267
00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,080
Speaker 1: was a rule. We we we broke it with the Jukes.

268
00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:45,240
Speaker 1: We we we changed New Jersey history with south Side

269
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,520
Speaker 1: Giantry Jukes, by not playing the top forty, by by

270
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,440
Speaker 1: finding a club that was gonna close because the Rufford

271
00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,520
Speaker 1: caved in. And uh and and we said, listen, we're

272
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,480
Speaker 1: not gonna charge you anything. We'll just take the door,

273
00:14:57,560 --> 00:14:59,360
Speaker 1: you take the bar, but we play whatever we want.

274
00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,640
Speaker 1: Because they were going to close. They allowed that to happen,

275
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,560
Speaker 1: and then you know, we we just got with fifty people,

276
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:07,400
Speaker 1: then a hundred, then two hundred, and you know, the

277
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,960
Speaker 1: residency every Sunday night. And then they fixed the roof,

278
00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,000
Speaker 1: and then they expanded the place and we ended up

279
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,200
Speaker 1: with three nights a week, a thousand people at night.

280
00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:19,479
Speaker 1: But that was a complete change in the New Jersey

281
00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,920
Speaker 1: rules of of a bar band. But as teenagers, man,

282
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,880
Speaker 1: it was just like complete freedom. You did whatever you wanted.

283
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,360
Speaker 1: You know, what was the place that was collapsing the facility,

284
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:34,360
Speaker 1: Pony Sty It was Stone Pony was falling apart. Yeah

285
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:37,680
Speaker 1: still there you guys put the new roof on Stone Pony.

286
00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and there was you know, it was it

287
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: was a time when when you were making that transition

288
00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 1: to trying to be become more professional. But um, we

289
00:15:49,280 --> 00:15:51,960
Speaker 1: didn't want to follow the professional rules, so we wanted

290
00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:54,640
Speaker 1: to make up our own rules. My first introduction to

291
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,040
Speaker 1: a variety of music when I go to college, which

292
00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:00,320
Speaker 1: is the real melting pot, and you really get your

293
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,360
Speaker 1: cultural chiropractic adjustment when you walk into college with a

294
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,480
Speaker 1: bunch of people from different regions and there's all these

295
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,080
Speaker 1: guys from South Jersey and Philly and they were all

296
00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 1: Asbury Jukes freaks. There I'm I'm listening to I didn't

297
00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:17,200
Speaker 1: know who Boz Scaggs was, and I'm listening to, you know,

298
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:22,040
Speaker 1: Bob Skaggs, Silk degrees, all this stuff. Dan Fogelberg, I

299
00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:24,920
Speaker 1: never had a whiff of but these guys were like

300
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,040
Speaker 1: the South Side Johnny Asbury Dukes freaks. These were all

301
00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,240
Speaker 1: South Jersey guys who just craved that music. And you

302
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:33,200
Speaker 1: wind up doing that for how long? How long are

303
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,000
Speaker 1: you in that? Dan? And the initial run well something

304
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:43,080
Speaker 1: like seventy four seventy five, probably at the most two years.

305
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:46,560
Speaker 1: But I stayed involved and produced the first three albums,

306
00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,920
Speaker 1: so I was involved right through seventy eight. But by

307
00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:55,040
Speaker 1: seventy end of seventy five, I think Bruce decided, uh,

308
00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:56,680
Speaker 1: he was hanging out with us because his first two

309
00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 1: records didn't do anything, and he couldn't work, so he

310
00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,840
Speaker 1: was a night with us and and and it was

311
00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:04,640
Speaker 1: he was about to put on his third album, Born

312
00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,360
Speaker 1: to Run, and decided, one last shot, he was gonna

313
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 1: try fronting the band for a minute, just to see

314
00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,560
Speaker 1: if that made any difference, because he just was kind of,

315
00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,920
Speaker 1: you know, on the edge of you know, big trouble

316
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:20,240
Speaker 1: at that point. So he said, come on out and

317
00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:22,439
Speaker 1: play guitar. I'm gonna I'm gonna front the band. So

318
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,320
Speaker 1: I got seven gigs booked, so I decided, you know,

319
00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:28,520
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do that, and I just wanted to get

320
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 1: out of town, you know, because I was not only

321
00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,800
Speaker 1: leading the band, but I was also managing the band,

322
00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 1: the Jukes anyway, so um, you know, I went out

323
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,399
Speaker 1: with Bruce and him fronting the band did make a

324
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,960
Speaker 1: big difference, actually, and and we started to break through.

325
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:47,800
Speaker 1: And uh, I went for seven gigs and stayed seven years.

326
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:52,520
Speaker 1: But um, um Jukes. I wasn't actually in the band

327
00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,520
Speaker 1: that long, maybe two years or so. But when you

328
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:59,000
Speaker 1: say managing the band and producing records, did you find

329
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,840
Speaker 1: it managing for you? Did you find any kind of

330
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:06,120
Speaker 1: managerial role? Was it tough for you. Yeah, I can't

331
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 1: do naturally. You didn't well, it did come to me naturally,

332
00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:11,080
Speaker 1: but I didn't really like it. I don't. I don't

333
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 1: enjoy business in general. I don't enjoy the whole negotiating process.

334
00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,320
Speaker 1: So I tend to be just upfront about, Look, this

335
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,280
Speaker 1: is what's needed here. If you don't want to do it,

336
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,480
Speaker 1: you know, I'll go. I'll go elsewhere. I'm always willing

337
00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 1: to walk away. I don't feel like I didn't need

338
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:29,640
Speaker 1: anybody that badly, you know, or any deal that badly,

339
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:31,359
Speaker 1: So that kind of gives you a bit of an

340
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,760
Speaker 1: edge right away. You know, I don't need anybody or anything,

341
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:37,560
Speaker 1: you know, And and and I and I communicate that,

342
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 1: or at least you pretend you don't need them very effectively.

343
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,280
Speaker 1: You're good at pretending you don't need Yeah, that's ye.

344
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,560
Speaker 1: You and I may have that incoming. I profess I

345
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,840
Speaker 1: don't need anyone or anything. You can all go. Funck

346
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:53,680
Speaker 1: is the Irish goodbye. You see, Irish goodbye, go fund yourself.

347
00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 1: And I'm at here. We don't even say that. We

348
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,760
Speaker 1: leave the party. Getting maneuver is the Irish goodbye. Yes,

349
00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 1: and and uh, it's not exactly a completely uh fraud.

350
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 1: Because if you're a writer, you know, you tend to

351
00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:12,760
Speaker 1: be um pretty independent. You know, you can be. I

352
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 1: mean nobody nobody's completely independent. Of course, we all need uh,

353
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,119
Speaker 1: we all need distribution of our work one way or

354
00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,600
Speaker 1: the other. But you can be quite independent if you're

355
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,240
Speaker 1: a writer first. You know, I'm a writer producer first,

356
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,560
Speaker 1: you know. And so when it comes to performing, that's

357
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,680
Speaker 1: just like a vacation for me that you know, whether

358
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 1: it's acting or whether it's being a rock star on stage,

359
00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,240
Speaker 1: you know, uh, that stuff is just nothing but fun

360
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,560
Speaker 1: for me. The real work is looking at a blank

361
00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,199
Speaker 1: piece of paper and creating something from it. You know,

362
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,480
Speaker 1: where's the first time you met Springsteen? Where were you

363
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 1: in your first laid eyes on him? The day before

364
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,880
Speaker 1: the Beatles played at Sullivan, there wasn't one band in America.

365
00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:56,880
Speaker 1: The day after, everyone had a band in their garage.

366
00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:01,280
Speaker 1: I mean literally everyone. It was the most It was

367
00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,800
Speaker 1: incredible cultural impact, and not just for the musicians, by

368
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:08,440
Speaker 1: the way. I mean after that, when kids were going

369
00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 1: out at night, you went and saw a band, you know,

370
00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,000
Speaker 1: if you didn't go to drive in, you know, to

371
00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: the movies, you went and saw a boat. I mean

372
00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 1: that that was it. That was what you did with

373
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 1: your free time. I mean, so the Beatles created more

374
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,760
Speaker 1: than just a world, a new world for musicians. It

375
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,879
Speaker 1: was a it was a new social world for everybody.

376
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,080
Speaker 1: You know, really it really was. I mean that's no exaggeration.

377
00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 1: So you made him where well, you know, like I said,

378
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,680
Speaker 1: everybody had a band the next day, and mercifully most

379
00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 1: of them stayed in the garage, but uh, about a

380
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: dozen of us got out there into the circuit, and

381
00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 1: he was one of them, and I was one of them.

382
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 1: I had my band, The Source, and he had his band,

383
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,840
Speaker 1: the cast Heels, And we met each other on the circuit,

384
00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:52,960
Speaker 1: which was made up of all of those places I

385
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 1: said before you know, v W vf W halls and

386
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 1: uh and all of that, and we'd have band battles,

387
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 1: you know, every month or so there'd be a band battle,

388
00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: you know. Um, But I on the weekends, I started

389
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 1: going up to the village, going to the Cafe Wah

390
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: on Saturday afternoons where there was bands one one after

391
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 1: the other. And they were all about a year ahead

392
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 1: of us in New in New Jersey because in those days, um,

393
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 1: a lot happened very quickly. You know, the time was

394
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 1: very different. The whole chronological time was a completely different

395
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 1: animal than now. I mean, five years goes by now

396
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 1: and nothing happens. You know. Back then, every three or

397
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 1: four or five months, something major was happening, you know,

398
00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: So so you go up and try and you know,

399
00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 1: keep up and get ahead of what was happening. And

400
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: so I go up and steal ideas and bring them

401
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,680
Speaker 1: back to my band in New Jersey, you know, which

402
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: is why we were one of the best. And I

403
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: started running into Bruce doing the same thing. You know,

404
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 1: it was only an hour on the bus, but it

405
00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 1: was kind of an adventurous for for you know, for

406
00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 1: sixteen year old kids to do at the time. So

407
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 1: I ran to him with the cafe wall, which is

408
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 1: still there by the way, and we became closer. And

409
00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,320
Speaker 1: because of that, and then I started coming up with him.

410
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: I go, I go to his house in free Hold.

411
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: He played me some new new songs and I played

412
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 1: him my favorite new records and and then we get

413
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 1: on the bus and go up to up to New York.

414
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 1: So we became closer because of that, and did musical collaboration.

415
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 1: Was inevitable. Did you talk about it right away? Was

416
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: it attractive to you or did that takes some time?

417
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 1: You know, do you think he'd fit into your musical plans?

418
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,280
Speaker 1: And vice versus. You can meet somebody you love, but

419
00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 1: I don't see us working together. I don't know why,

420
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 1: you know. I regret that we didn't back then, But

421
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: I was reminded of this by one of the other

422
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 1: members of the group, which we tracked down when I

423
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 1: was writing the book, and he reminded me that I

424
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 1: did come to the band and want Bruce because Bruce

425
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 1: said were having a little trouble with his band. He

426
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 1: wasn't even the lead singer in his band, by the way,

427
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,640
Speaker 1: but he was having a little trouble, you know, there

428
00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,000
Speaker 1: was some bad vibes going on. So I went to

429
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:02,479
Speaker 1: my band and wanted him to join, wanted Bruce to

430
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 1: be in our band. But it was pointed out to

431
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,920
Speaker 1: me that Bruce's mother didn't drive, so because the mothers

432
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: were the ones taking turns, I swear to his truth,

433
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 1: his gold. Because the mother took turns driving us to

434
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,480
Speaker 1: the gigs, and because his mother didn't drive, he really

435
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 1: couldn't be in the band. So uh so we didn't

436
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 1: actually collaborate. We come on, we did. We wouldn't collaborate

437
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: til a few years later. Uh, you know when we

438
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 1: started having a different group every three, four or five months.

439
00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: You know, we just started experimenting. Like I said, we

440
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: were learning our identities. And you'd go from one trend

441
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: to the next. Every year there was a different trend,

442
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, bridge invasion to folk rock, to psychedelic rock,

443
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: to country rock, the blues rock, you know, to southern rock.

444
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 1: You know, there was one one trend to the other,

445
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: and you tend to go from one trend and next

446
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: as a as a learning like you were going to school,

447
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: you know, and you pick up a little bit from this,

448
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 1: a little bit from that, and you know, put it

449
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 1: into your own identity as you built who you were

450
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 1: going to be. And Um, and then finally we uh,

451
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: we ended up you know, we ended up getting he

452
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 1: got signed and then I would join him on the

453
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: on the third album for the tour. You didn't record

454
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,959
Speaker 1: the album, you just royed the know. I visited those

455
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,639
Speaker 1: sessions just as a friend, you know, but then UM

456
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: officially would join at that point. Yeah, actor and musician

457
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: Stephen van zandt if you love in depth discussions about

458
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 1: iconic TV shows. Listen to my conversation with the creator

459
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 1: of The Wire, David Simon. A lot of people think

460
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 1: The Wire came in the wake of The Sopranos, but

461
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 1: when we were the Wire scripts for the first season,

462
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 1: we hadn't seen the Sopranos. We were we were writing

463
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: in the absence of the Sprints. We were writing in

464
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: the shadow of oz. Oz was the first time that

465
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: HBO had ventured into this. Hey, we'll put it on TV,

466
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 1: and you've never seen it before in TV territory. So

467
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: that was when I saw the pilot of Alas. I

468
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,680
Speaker 1: went to Tom and said, you know, you could do

469
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: a show about a drug corner. Here the rest of

470
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:21,679
Speaker 1: my conversation with David Simon at Here's the Thing dot Org.

471
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: After the break, Stephen van Zandt tells us about the

472
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: moment he walked away from the music business. I'm Alec

473
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 1: Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing. Stephen

474
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: van Zandt's path from musician to actor was anything but straightforward.

475
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,159
Speaker 1: It began when he left the Street Band after seven years.

476
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 1: I actually left UM two. I produced most of Born

477
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: in the USA. I then left recorded two solo albums

478
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,439
Speaker 1: and and then they added three more songs to what

479
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 1: I had done and put out Born in the USA

480
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 1: the same year as my second album, Voice of America.

481
00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: So technically, uh, eighty two, Um, nobody noticed until eighty four. Uh,

482
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: and then I was got took a little eighteen year hiatus. Yeah. Well,

483
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: I I did five solo albums in the eighties, all

484
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: very political, and uh, I decided that would be my

485
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:35,719
Speaker 1: identity because in the Renaissance period that I grew up in,

486
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: everybody had a very very very specific identity. Eighteen years

487
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 1: are you're in a band and and and performing solo

488
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,800
Speaker 1: acts for the entire eighteen years, and and and then

489
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: you go back to no no, no no for the

490
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 1: first seven years. I started Disciples Soul, and I do

491
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: my five solo albums in the eighties and eighty nine,

492
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: I walked away from music business completely and I basically, uh,

493
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: go out into the wilderness for seven years. I don't

494
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: want to be over dramatic about it, but I was.

495
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: You know, no nobody wanted to sign me after the

496
00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 1: Sun City success. Uh, it was a little bit too successful,

497
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:20,399
Speaker 1: and people started getting nervous about me. Yeah, and a

498
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: successful one, you know, which was the worst effect one

499
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 1: effective one which you know nobody thought that coming, including made.

500
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 1: But um so I kind of just drifted for seven

501
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: years until the David Chase called and said, uh, do

502
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: you want to be in my new TV show? And

503
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 1: when he contacted you to be in the show, you

504
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: weren't back with Bruce yet. No, no, no, I'm looking

505
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 1: for it, and I think it's interesting. And I don't

506
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: say this. We were all kind of some of my

507
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: producers kind of I'm not gonna say. They gasped, but

508
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,280
Speaker 1: their eyes widened when I said, isn't it interesting that

509
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: you work with Springsteen? Who I have boundless admiration for

510
00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: him and I certainly love his music can but I said,

511
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 1: it isn't an interesting that you go on your own

512
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: and you went up on a TV show. We're on

513
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: any given Sunday, you have a bigger audience than one night,

514
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 1: and he has the entire run of his Broadway show

515
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: times ten. You go on to become one of the

516
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: stars of the most successful television shows in history, and

517
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:21,720
Speaker 1: that's kind of that's kind of weird. Did you see

518
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: that coming at all? Did you have any idea that

519
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: acting was because because you say, you kind of go

520
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: off into the wilderness, you're on this hiatus, you're on

521
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: this vision quest, and then you wind a chase calls you.

522
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 1: Were you ready for that call? Were you thinking I'll

523
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: try that? No, no idea. No. And I and I

524
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: had no interest in being an actor ever. I liked obviously,

525
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,560
Speaker 1: I liked the art form, and I saw myself maybe

526
00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: writing someday and maybe even directing or producing. But I never,

527
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: you know, never sort of fantasized about being an actor.

528
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: Um So, so it was it was a challenge, you know,

529
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: when he called, and it just so happened. This particular genre,

530
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: you know, this particular mill you was something that was

531
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: an interest of mine, you know what I mean. It

532
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: was just one of I'm not I don't know what

533
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: they call it, a hobby or an interest. But I

534
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: had just read every Mob book, you know, and I

535
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 1: had seen every Mob movie, and uh and I grew

536
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: up around the guys or maybe wannabes, which is what's

537
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: the difference. They're equally scary, you know. Um So I

538
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: kind of just I just kind of felt I could

539
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: do this, you know, I kind of knew this kind

540
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: of guy and uh and if I could, if I

541
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: could create him from the outside in, which is what

542
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: I did. Um, and I wrote a biography. I want

543
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: to talk about that. Yeah, you know, but so you know,

544
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 1: I just I just uh, it just something I just

545
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: felt I could do. So you're famous for you wear

546
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 1: a band dadda. You have a band daddy. You are

547
00:29:53,080 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: a legendary bandanna aficionado. Your sartorial legacy is high lighted

548
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: by bandana wearing for many decades. And yet you turn

549
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: up on a TV show where you have one of

550
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 1: the richest heads of hair in human history. This character

551
00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: has a little hair like the hood of a car,

552
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: like the hood of a buick. That's your hair or

553
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 1: did they put a piece on you? Well, the wonderful

554
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: thing that turns out of wearing the bandana, you know

555
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: as often as I did. When you do have hair,

556
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 1: you know, you really look quite different. And let me

557
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: tell you something. That particular hairstyle I got partially from you. Uh,

558
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: one of your early movies you had very close to

559
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 1: that hairstyle, and I thought, I thought, that's that's exactly

560
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: what he should look like. So I I'm not, I'm not,

561
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: I'm not. I I forget which movie, but you know

562
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: what I mean. You remember your hair was very similar

563
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:56,640
Speaker 1: to Silvio's at one point. I mean, it may have

564
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 1: just been one movie. And I did, I did. I

565
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: had a famous hair dresser who is who I think

566
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: he retired from the business. Name was Louis Lacari. Louis

567
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 1: Lacari was a legend in New York and he had

568
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: a very unique voice. And I'm sure he won't mind

569
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: me making fun of him. And and I said to

570
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 1: my said, I wanted black, man, I said, dye my hair.

571
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to be so fucking black. I wanted to

572
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 1: be like the fucking Ink. And finally he towards me

573
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: one day he dyed my hair. And he says, now, alec.

574
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: He says, if I dye your hair any darker, it's

575
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: gonna be purple on camera. It's gonna look like an

576
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: a plant. I said, I don't fucking care. And then

577
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 1: make it look like an egg plant. And I would

578
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: put so much ship in my hair to have that

579
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: black black Elvis hair. You know what I mean? But

580
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 1: so so is it your hair or they put a

581
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: hair piece on? No, no, no, no, no, it's a

582
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: piece of pie a piece that hair, Oh my god, unbelievable. Yeah.

583
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 1: So so my my I wrote a biography and a

584
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: guy and uh and and he was you know, well

585
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: it came from a treatment that I had written about

586
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: a guy who opened a band type of club but

587
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: in present day, and you know, the five families all

588
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: had their tables, and the commissioner and you know, the

589
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: police and the mayor. It was kind of a Gumba

590
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: Casablanca kind of, you know, basically exactly and Sylvio's and

591
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 1: that's where the character came from. So you know, I had,

592
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 1: I had a bit of a backstory prepared because you know,

593
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: I had you know, I had watched my wife do it.

594
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 1: You know, my wife's a real actor. I mean she

595
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: she's been going to classes for years and had the

596
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: theater company, and she would go to class and tell

597
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: me about the classes and you know, and some of

598
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 1: the stuff I agreed with some of the theory, some

599
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 1: of some of I didn't necessarily, But in the end,

600
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: I just had to come up with my own acting theory,

601
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 1: which I felt, you know, every human characteristic exists in

602
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: all of us, and uh, the job, the craft is

603
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: finding the appropriate characteristics for that particular character in that

604
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 1: particular moment, and that's how I looked at it, and

605
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:57,720
Speaker 1: I felt if I could look at the mirror and

606
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,479
Speaker 1: see the guy, then I could be that guy. And uh,

607
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: to this day, I have nothing but respect for actors

608
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: such as yourself who can act looking like themselves. I mean,

609
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 1: I just find that incredible, you know, And I'm always

610
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: trying to access pieces where I can put, you know,

611
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: as what you know. Olivier called it the putty on

612
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: the nose acting, and I mean, I'm always trying to

613
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: find roles I can play where I can get as

614
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: far away from myself as I can. But what's interesting

615
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: is that in acting, when you have the chance, there's

616
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: acting that's very muted and you want to keep it

617
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:32,239
Speaker 1: as close to yourself as you can and do as

618
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: little as possible, and you're probably going to make an

619
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: ass of yourself if you don't. And then there's acting

620
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: where it's it's tight. It's three or four moves and

621
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 1: maybe two or three beats where you're at that character

622
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: for you, the hair, the scowl, there's three or four

623
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: things that you pick up on that that become the

624
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: character in terms of his his because all acting to

625
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: me and old television and film projects are like music.

626
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: It's like classical music. You have your part to play.

627
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: You've got to fit in to this thing. Director. The

628
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 1: writer has a vision for something he wants to do,

629
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 1: and the worst thing you can do is step outside

630
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: of what you're supposed to do. You like you, You're

631
00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: looking at the director, this is my thing, and I'm going,

632
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 1: what do you want me to do? Am I here

633
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: to play the triangle? Am I playing the tuba? What

634
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 1: am I playing? Am I the violin? Soloist? Or the piano?

635
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: And with you, you take these three four beats you

636
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 1: put together and you're like fucking Edward g Robinson. You know,

637
00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 1: when you're in that territory of a guy who's created

638
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: a character, and it's like that line, it's right, move Ti,

639
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 1: it's right move ti. You know, just expect. But he's

640
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: a wise You crafted the guy that was the wise mobster.

641
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 1: The other guys are emotional, tough, loud, crazy, and you're

642
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: the one who he needs you. When you watch the Sopranos,

643
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,120
Speaker 1: what you realize is of all those men, you're the

644
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: one he needed most. That's my opinion. Well, it's it

645
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,239
Speaker 1: was a fascinating thing. To analyze, because you know, when

646
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: you're doing these things, you're not necessarily analyzing it. But

647
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:01,279
Speaker 1: when I when when I go back to write a book,

648
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 1: you know, you really got to analyze it. And uh,

649
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,720
Speaker 1: first of all, all the things you just said are true.

650
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: And I had one additional challenge which I needed to

651
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: in my mind since I was never going to play

652
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: music again, you know, I was done with that, you know.

653
00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 1: So now I'm embarking on a brand new career, which

654
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 1: I thought would be the rest of my life. I

655
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that I did everything a little

656
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 1: bit different. You know. I didn't want anybody saying, wait

657
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: a minute, I just saw him play in Cleveland last week.

658
00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: So in addition to all of those other little things,

659
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: you know, the hair and the scowl and the walk,

660
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I practiced laughing, I practiced smiling, I you know,

661
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 1: every every single thing I could think of, I wanted

662
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,960
Speaker 1: to do different than than I usually do. So there

663
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 1: was that. And what was I think most interesting about

664
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: the whole experience was well, first of all, David Chase

665
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 1: hired me to be Tony. Okay, I don't know if

666
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: you know that. Um, all right, so so so HBO said,

667
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:03,879
Speaker 1: are you out of your fucking mind? Okay, we're about

668
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: to invest all this money. The guy never acted before

669
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,279
Speaker 1: and and he said so, he says, so what do

670
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,760
Speaker 1: you want to do? I said, I said, well, David,

671
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 1: and now that I think about it, because it's all

672
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,560
Speaker 1: been such a spontaneous sort of rush, I said, I'm

673
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,799
Speaker 1: starting to feel guilty about taking an actor's job here.

674
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, these guys work their whole lives.

675
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,239
Speaker 1: I watched my wife go through it, you know. And

676
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: I said, you know, so I'm just gonna go back

677
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 1: to where I belong, you know, which is unemployed. And

678
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: he said no, I'll tell you what. Then I'll write

679
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: you in a part that doesn't exist. You know. I

680
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: want you. I want you in this And that's when

681
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:38,359
Speaker 1: he said, what do you want to do? I said, well,

682
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 1: I had this treatment, you know, I had this treatment

683
00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: of the Silvio Dante guy who was an independent hit man,

684
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: and he has this club and uh, you know, and

685
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: David went away, Okay, let me let me run it

686
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: by HBO. He says, that's a good idea. Comes back

687
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: because now they can't afford it, so we're gonna make

688
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: it a strip club and uh, you know, and you'll

689
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: run it for the family. So what happens, I think

690
00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:00,919
Speaker 1: is I don't know if it's some liminal or what,

691
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:03,800
Speaker 1: but I think that's why a lot of second seasons

692
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: are always better than the first season, because the writers

693
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: start to they start to incorporate the characteristics of the

694
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: actors into the parts, right, you know what I mean?

695
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: And now in this case, the most to me, the

696
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 1: most interesting thing is I'm the only guy that's not

697
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: in the pilot, I mean originally, so now he puts

698
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: me into the pilot and puts me into the into

699
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: the show as a kind of unclear you know, Okay,

700
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 1: you're you're gonna run the strip club for the family,

701
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: and and we're gonna have the meetings in the back room.

702
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: You know, that's going to be the clubhouse whatever you

703
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: call it, the office. But that was it though, you

704
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 1: know what I mean that there wasn't any kind of

705
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: really clear definition yet. Okay, now here's what's interesting to me.

706
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 1: Here's with the David Chase, the most detailed oriented guy

707
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:51,840
Speaker 1: on Earth. Okay, and he writes, uh what twelve fifteen

708
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: fascinating characters, terrific characters He doesn't right in the Underborce.

709
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: He doesn't right in the constelietti, which is sometimes two

710
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: different people. Okay, sometimes it's the same guy. Sometimes there's

711
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: two different people. He doesn't write into the script either one. Now,

712
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: this is an extremely important part of any mob family,

713
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: you know, but on The Boss you have a constelietti.

714
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: That's that that's just you know, there's no exception to

715
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: that rule. He doesn't write them in. Okay. So by

716
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 1: the end of the first season, you know, they did

717
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,399
Speaker 1: a second season. You know, my character gravitates into that role.

718
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: It's about it, which was very similar to the role

719
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: I was playing with Bruce Springsteen in real life. You know. Interesting,

720
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: It was fascinating to me. When you really looksack and

721
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: analyze it, I'm like, wow, how could he not have

722
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: written in and I'm the Boss? You know all those shows.

723
00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,240
Speaker 1: I did a couple of arcs on Will and Grace,

724
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:53,960
Speaker 1: and I was madly in love with Megan Malally. I

725
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: just worshiped Megan. She's so talented, and they bring me

726
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: on to play this cookie character that's in love with Megan.

727
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 1: And I went back and watched online early episodes of

728
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 1: the show, and you can see like a lot of

729
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: shows and ones have become very popular and very successful.

730
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 1: They're all groping towards the character in season one. By

731
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: season two, season three, they're doing characters which are unrecognizable

732
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:18,800
Speaker 1: from the first four or five episode. They they migrated

733
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: so far. So you go back to Bruce, you go

734
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 1: back into the band. Correct. Yeah. It was a tough

735
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:30,800
Speaker 1: decision because I just started, you know, after eighteen years

736
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: of unemployment. Basically, I finally found a new job, which

737
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,879
Speaker 1: I was hoping to be, uh, you know, my first

738
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: steady job of my life. That's what unfortunately, I'm still

739
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: looking for. So he decided to put the band bat

740
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 1: together right after the first seasons filmed, um and just

741
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 1: as it's being broadcast. So I said, you know, I

742
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: just felt I needed some closure there. I'll always I'll

743
00:39:55,920 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 1: always wonder about this move, but I said, you know,

744
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,439
Speaker 1: I left under some bizarre circumstances explained in the book,

745
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:09,120
Speaker 1: but but I really needed to um have some closure there.

746
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 1: And so David Chase, of being the amazing guy he is,

747
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 1: um scheduled my scenes for days off of the tour,

748
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 1: and believe it or not, and he went back. I

749
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: went back and did seven seasons in ten years of

750
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 1: Sopranos and another three seasons and four years of Lilly

751
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: Hammer Hammer. Fourteen years of steady acting and touring simultaneously,

752
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: and I missed one month of one tour and one

753
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:43,359
Speaker 1: month of another tour. That's it, Stephen van Zant. Subscribe

754
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,279
Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app,

755
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,760
Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. While you're there,

756
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 1: leave us a review when we come back. Stephen van

757
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:56,319
Speaker 1: zandt tells us how he ended up playing the role

758
00:40:56,640 --> 00:41:12,359
Speaker 1: of another gangster on the mean streets of Norway. Hi'm

759
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:15,279
Speaker 1: Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing.

760
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: Stephen van Zant par laid his incredible success on The

761
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 1: Sopranos into another show with a familiar concept but an

762
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:28,720
Speaker 1: unfamiliar setting. I was producing a record for my record

763
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: label in Norway. I signed a bunch of Norwegian bands

764
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: and uh, there's a couple in the lobby to see

765
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: you go down and say hello, hello. Uh you know

766
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:41,759
Speaker 1: since uh and you're instead and I left Scott Vin

767
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: and they were writers in Norway and Oslo, and uh

768
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 1: they said, well, we wrote a TV show for you.

769
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 1: You know now, as you know this is not something

770
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: you here every day. You know, you might hear it

771
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: every day. I don't need it every day, you know,

772
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 1: that's all. You know. Your ego says, oh, hello, what

773
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: would that be? And of course the pitch was, you know,

774
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: the guy goes into with his protection program and chooses Norway, Sammy,

775
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 1: the bill goes to Oslo. Yeah, And I was like, oh, man,

776
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: I just played a gangster for ten years. I can't

777
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: do that. You know. I love the show. By the way,

778
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: I just started, I thank you. In the end, I

779
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 1: couldn't resist. I was like, whoever heard of going to

780
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 1: a foreign country and starring in a local show. I've

781
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: never heard of that before, you know. So we took

782
00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: a year to write it, which was very complicated, and

783
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 1: I didn't want it to be a straight ahead comedy.

784
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: I wanted to be a drama d and uh, I

785
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: said to them, I said, listen, if I'm making my

786
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 1: living playing a gangster, I can't make fun of these guys.

787
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: Understand I don't live in New York, you know. So

788
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: any humor, any any humor, has to come from circumstances,

789
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: has to come from character, you know. I don't want

790
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 1: anybody trying to be funny, you know, and we decided

791
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,879
Speaker 1: how much English to use because it had to work

792
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: for the Norwegian audience and the American audience, you know,

793
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 1: very complicated and anyway, so we're six weeks into filming

794
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: and I realized somebody, you know, the production people, not

795
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 1: the writers, but the production heads kind of uh, fraudulent

796
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,840
Speaker 1: about the budget because you know, all of a sudden,

797
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 1: I see my my makeup guy carrying a camera and

798
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:15,439
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like, you know, what what's going on here?

799
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:20,879
Speaker 1: And uh turns out I'm telling you it's like that.

800
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 1: They're very you know, do it yourself over there. And

801
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: I realized, oh my god, we can't afford to shoot

802
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: the show that we wrote. And I mean, we spent

803
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,959
Speaker 1: a year writing it. So I told my agent. I said,

804
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: the one guy I know, Chris Albrick, but we just

805
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:38,319
Speaker 1: left HBO to go two stars, I said, book, I said,

806
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: I gotta make a deal. I gotta make an American

807
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: deal here. We can't afford to shoot the showy. I

808
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: go to Chris. I had the guys created a trailer,

809
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 1: which wasn't easy. We've only been filming six weeks. So

810
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: we put together a trailer miraculously, and I showed it

811
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: to Chris Albrick. He loved it. He says, I want it.

812
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: It's great, I said. He said, what do you need?

813
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know the budgets over there, I said,

814
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 1: they mere reality show budgets, like eighty dollars. Were I'm

815
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: competing with, you know, four million dollars the Sopranos, right,

816
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I said, I said, I need at least

817
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: a million dollars a show. You know. He says, I,

818
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:14,399
Speaker 1: I don't have it in a budget this year, I said.

819
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:16,400
Speaker 1: He said, I'll give you two million next year. You know.

820
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: I said, this is gonna be great. I said, Chris,

821
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 1: I can't wait. I started filming the thing that you know.

822
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 1: I'm in the middle of filming this fucking thing. It's weird,

823
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: so um I said, okay, Well, well, I said, let

824
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: me see what I can do. And I leave there

825
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,720
Speaker 1: and I said to my agent, was, what's that across

826
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:38,319
Speaker 1: the street this new thing called Netflix? Alright? Uh look

827
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:42,759
Speaker 1: it up and I see uh Ted Surrando's name, and

828
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:46,640
Speaker 1: I call, you know, I said, uh, I can I

829
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,760
Speaker 1: talk to Ted Surrandos please? He gets right on the phone.

830
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: I said, Ted Stevie van zand I hear you're looking

831
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,400
Speaker 1: for content in this trop He says, yeah, we're just starting.

832
00:44:57,239 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: You got something? I said, Yeah, I got something. He says,

833
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: come on in. There's two people at Netflix at that

834
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:08,640
Speaker 1: time too show material. Uh, he loves it. And the

835
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,479
Speaker 1: greatest business deal of my life. And in one hour,

836
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 1: I walked away with a two year deal, which I've

837
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,120
Speaker 1: never heard of. And I think, to this to this day,

838
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 1: maybe the only two year almost impossible now even even

839
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: successful shows, right, they only go one year, you know,

840
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,200
Speaker 1: because you know they know God forbid, they take a chance.

841
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: Well this guy had balls, man, and I will respect

842
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 1: this guy forever. I'm so glad of success he's had.

843
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,280
Speaker 1: But we turned out to read the first show on Netflix.

844
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: So I watched History Happened twice. You know, HBO with

845
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: their extraordinary creativity becoming the go to a place for

846
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: adult content and then Netflix turning it into an international concept.

847
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: You're developing any other TV now or no? I got

848
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 1: five scripts? Yeah, I'm looking at and I want to

849
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: I want to do something because uh, you know, we

850
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 1: had another tour. We're gonna toward us here and then

851
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 1: uh and then once again we're not, so I've got

852
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 1: to go. I want to get back on TV. I

853
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: really do. Thank you so much for taking the time.

854
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: And I want to say, you know, you tell your

855
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 1: story and you talk about your nature that you doubt things,

856
00:46:15,719 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 1: your purity, your honesty, your integrity, whatever. But all these

857
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: things that guided you through your music career and then

858
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 1: on into your acting career, they were responsible for your success.

859
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 1: You know, to Thine own self be true, you clinging

860
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 1: to your beliefs made you who you are. When I

861
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: think about your career, made you who you are as

862
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: a musician and led to the amount of success you

863
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: had as a musician and as an actor. You know,

864
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 1: you said you you were like, I'm gonna play this

865
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 1: part the only way that I feel comfortable with and

866
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 1: the rest is history. So you in the to Thine

867
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: own Self be True department, it's really paid for you,

868
00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: big time, big time. So thank you. I I don't

869
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: know if you have any choice in these matters to

870
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 1: tell your truth. You know, we all like to pretend

871
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: in charge, you know, and UH making all of these decisions,

872
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,480
Speaker 1: but I sometimes wonder about that it was the right move. Tea.

873
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: I get to say that to you now it was

874
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 1: the right move tea. Your career choices, it was the

875
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 1: right move tea. Thanks man, good talking to you. My

876
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:21,719
Speaker 1: friend Stephen van Zant. This is I Don't Want to

877
00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: Go Home from the album Soul Fire Live by Little

878
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:29,440
Speaker 1: Stephen and the Disciples of Soul. I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's

879
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: the thing that is brought to you by my Heart Radio.

880
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: I don't he my lid as do I don't try

881
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 1: to reach up into the sky.