1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio. I'm 2 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Danny Shapiro and this is a special bonus episode of 3 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: Family Secrets. The secrets that are kept from us, the 4 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: secrets we keep from others, and the secrets we keep 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: from ourselves. My guest today is the journalist Jennifer sr, 6 00:00:25,760 --> 00:00:29,560 Speaker 1: who joins me in conversation to discuss her extraordinarily moving 7 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: cover story in this month's Atlantic. Jen's story is about 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 1: a family, the macle Veins, who lost their son Bobby, 9 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:42,920 Speaker 1: in the attacks of nine eleven, which, unbelievably enough, happened 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. You had a personal connection to the 11 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: macle Veins, Yes, although the funny thing is, how well 12 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 1: do you know these kinds of people? Really? I will 13 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: describe you to you how I knew them, and you'll 14 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: see they didn't etch themselves particularly deeply into my brain 15 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: until after they had lost Bobby, which is a sad 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 1: thing to say. They were the parents of my brother's roommate, 17 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: both in college and in young adulthood. My brother moved 18 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: into Princeton, you know, it's freshman year. He throws his 19 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: stuff on a bunk bed, and the kid on the 20 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: other bunk bed was Bobby McIlvaine. And so when did 21 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: I see cocle Van's I saw them if we were 22 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 1: at the end of the year picking up my brother 23 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 1: or graduation, or then when the two of them were 24 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: living in New York. I would see them if I 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: just happened to run into them because they were in 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: town and I was picking something up, and my brother says, 27 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,240 Speaker 1: you know, it wasn't a lot. I really didn't get 28 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: to know them until after Bobby died. Um. And my 29 00:01:56,120 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: impression of them is just that they were saintly warm 30 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: people who had devoted their lives to doing good in 31 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: the world. They were both teachers. They one taught, you know, 32 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: kids who were troubled teens who were in an adolescent 33 00:02:12,320 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: psych ward at a local hospital. Another taught reading in 34 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: a trailer in a parking lot of a Catholic school. 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: They were lovely people. Oh and and his brother was 36 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: this this cheerful, sweet kid you know, who was younger 37 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: and kind of goofy and uh and not nearly the 38 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,080 Speaker 1: go getter that his older brother was, but very funny. 39 00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: And Bobby made a much bigger and more singular impression 40 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,680 Speaker 1: upon you. It seems during the time that you knew him. 41 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:48,960 Speaker 1: Oh God, yeah, Bobby like a one off. He was 42 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: like a human being that never went into full production. 43 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: You know what I mean? It was he was an 44 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: exceptional kid. Nobody in his family expected him to go 45 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: to an Ivy League school, working class, um, you know, 46 00:03:03,080 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: Irish Catholic family. Uh, without any kind of expectation that 47 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: he would go off and conquer the Ivy League. And 48 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,679 Speaker 1: he just came out freakishly smart even as this young kid. 49 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: And uh when I met him, he was always just 50 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: filled those ideas, very lively conversation, very precocious um charisma 51 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: personified I think intimidating to some people who knew him 52 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: until they got to know him to realize that inside 53 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: he was just a warm piece of peach pie. Um. 54 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 1: He just was dazzling and was as if he had 55 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: been sort of flung into the world from a sling shot, 56 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. He just had lots of 57 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: purpose um and had that air about him that any 58 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: self invented person does. They're just kind of unstoppable. There's 59 00:03:53,320 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 1: a moment in your piece for you describe he was 60 00:03:55,760 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: also athletic, and there's this moment where you describe a 61 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: teenage Bobby matt Vane throwing an immaculate pass uh as 62 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: a basketball player that sets up an immaculate shot that 63 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: flies right over the teenage head of Kobe Bryant. I mean, 64 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: I mean it just sounds like on every level, this 65 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: kid was as you describe, but just a one off, 66 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: completely extraordinary. He was a miracle, yeah. I mean, and 67 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: Kobe Bryant. That's the other thing, right, there's something almost 68 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: Zelig like or Forrest Gumpian about Bobby's trajectory. Right. They 69 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: wound up playing each other in high school and they 70 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: were the two best kids on their team, and Bobby 71 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 1: got sixteen points off of Kobe and his teammates. I mean, 72 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: that's extraordinary. That became the stuff of legend in the 73 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: mclavaine family as Kobe Bryant became Kobe Bryant. Um. Then 74 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: Bobby goes up to and get the hand pick to 75 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: take a class with Tony Morrison. And when when Bobby dies, 76 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: Tony Morrison sends his family not one but two condolence 77 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: notes saying, what is star Bobby was? And he just 78 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: kept intersecting with exceptional people, you know, that's the kind 79 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: of guy he was so on on nine eleven. At first, 80 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 1: when the planes hit the towers, there wasn't a sense 81 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: in the family or among Bobby's friends that that Bobby 82 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: was in the towers right there. It was just um, 83 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: this horrific thing that was unfolding. But there was no 84 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: reason to He didn't work there, he didn't live right there. 85 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: There was no reason to think that he would have 86 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,120 Speaker 1: been there. He worked nearer there, he was adjacent, right 87 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: But but and here's what's interesting. His mother had a 88 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: full on premonition, a real deep, visceral sense that something 89 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: wasn't matter. It was more than just a chirp in 90 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: her stomach. She really thought something was wrong. But his 91 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: father treated it like a news event. His brother had 92 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: just been in the city that Thursday and appear with him, 93 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: and he worked in Maryland. He had just moved there 94 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: to corporate communications in Maryland. It just so happened he 95 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: had to attend a conference that day, and you do 96 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: make things crazier. The theory about Bobby is that he 97 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: had to go to a restaurant that to windows in 98 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: the world that morning for a conference, but that he 99 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: had probably left before the planes hit, because they found 100 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: his body on the periphery of the site, and that 101 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: no one who was in windows on the world was found, right, 102 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: I mean, everybody was incinerated if they were up there. 103 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: So I want to quote something from from your Peace, 104 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: because really, so much of your piece is about the 105 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: shape or shapelessness or trajectory of grief and trauma, and 106 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: you right early on, the mckail vans spoke to a 107 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: therapist who warned them that each member of their family 108 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: would grieve differently. Imagine you're all at the top of 109 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 1: a mountain, she told them, But you all have broken bones, 110 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: so you can't help each other. You have to find 111 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 1: your own way down. It was a helpful metaphor, one 112 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: that may have saved the mcilvaine's marriage. But when I 113 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:12,840 Speaker 1: mentioned it to Roxanne Cohen Silver, a psychology professor you see, Irvine, 114 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: who spent a lifetime studying the effect of sudden traumatic loss, 115 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: she immediately spotted a problem with it that suggests that 116 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: everyone will make it down. She told me, some people 117 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: never get down the mountain at all. This is one 118 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: of the many things you learn about mourning when examining 119 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: it at close range. It's idiosyncratic. Anarchic polychrome A lot 120 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: of the series you read about grief are great, beautiful 121 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: even they have a way of eracing individual experiences. Every 122 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: morner has a different story to tell. So what I'm 123 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,239 Speaker 1: wondering is if you can tell us now the different 124 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: stories that Bobby's parents, in particular, went through in the 125 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: wake the long week of Bobby's death. Both Bob Sor 126 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 1: and Helen. Yes, Um, they are so different that they 127 00:08:09,840 --> 00:08:14,679 Speaker 1: almost look like photo negatives of one another. It really 128 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: struck me, Um, and particularly Bob Sor his story. Helen's 129 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: was more recognizable to me. It isn't how I think 130 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: I would have grieved, but it is a story that 131 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: I could have sort of seen and predicted. Which is 132 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: or not knowing her. So, Helen, this is how she 133 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: chose to grieve. She chose to starve her grief. She 134 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 1: didn't want people to pity her. She didn't want to 135 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: manage people's awkwardness. She didn't want to manage their discomfort 136 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 1: or listen to them babbling their condolences, and she didn't 137 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: want to feel terrible all the time when people accidentally 138 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 1: said the wrong thing to her. She went to a 139 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 1: different grocery store for fifteen years in order to not 140 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: run into people she knew, so that no one could 141 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:08,960 Speaker 1: sit there and just start incoherently trying to console her 142 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 1: or muttering to preprint to you know, like pointing and gossiping. 143 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: She didn't want any of it. She would deflect, she 144 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 1: would joke. It was her way of coping with it, 145 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: and realized about ten years in that it wasn't serving 146 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: her very well to keep stoppering up all of her grief. 147 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: She realized at some point that it was making her angry, 148 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: that it was making her more of a gossip, that 149 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: she was on a shorter fuse, But she thought, no, 150 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: it is additionally compounded by the fact that I am 151 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: not allowing myself to grieve, to fully inhabit this grief. 152 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: The only act herself to do it was with this 153 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: group of local women, all lost children, with whom she 154 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,000 Speaker 1: could speak in shorthand they all knew what it was. 155 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: They weren't going to single her ab for special pity. 156 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: She could say anything she wanted to them and it 157 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: was all okay, But they understood if she said, I 158 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: was just with a friend of mine who went on 159 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,840 Speaker 1: and on and on about their child, and I just 160 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: couldn't stand listening to them talk about their child. I 161 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: am so jealous that she has this problem. I can't 162 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,200 Speaker 1: listen to people talk about their child. They all got it, 163 00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: It all made sense, but it was very hard for her. 164 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: She didn't want to be a victim. She didn't want 165 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: to be short, she didn't want to be short tempered, 166 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: you know, or hurt. All these things. She had like 167 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: a strong super ego kind of watching her own reactions. 168 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: That was helen. She gave the impression of having quote 169 00:10:32,200 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: unquote healed because she wasn't talking about it and she 170 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: was you know, moving on with her life. And so 171 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: it was this impossible conundrum totally one of her own making, right, 172 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: exactly right, she needed to do that in order to 173 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: get through the day. That was in some ways her 174 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: version of grieving was not grieving or not externally showing it. 175 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: And yet exactly something some part of her was permanently 176 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: you know, there was a scar tissue on top of 177 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,240 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of stuff that had not stitched up. 178 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: There was something painfully paradoxical about this situation, right that 179 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: she was like all stitched up, but just a watery 180 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: mass inside. And so that was really hard. That was 181 00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: really really hard for her um and she just woke 182 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: up one morning and decided she had to do something 183 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 1: about it, which makes her very unusual. I mean, to 184 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: make an executive decision one day that you were simply 185 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: going to be another person is extraordinary. And she actually 186 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,200 Speaker 1: did that. She actually woke up one morning and did 187 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: that to be she decided she wanted to be somebody else, 188 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 1: She needed to be someone else, and so she was 189 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: going to be that person. And what was that someone else? 190 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: Someone who engaged more with her grief and who let 191 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: go of all of the anger that was just accumulating 192 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: in there. She really felt on some level like she 193 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,839 Speaker 1: was marinating in a brain of her own resentment and 194 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,319 Speaker 1: her own fury and her own hurt, and she hadn't 195 00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: let it out, you know, and it was just curdling 196 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: her and curdling her insights. What you just described is 197 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: a version of a secret. It's you know, it's it's 198 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: this kind of almost one of the most toxic versions 199 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:25,559 Speaker 1: because it's that bottling up, you know, the idea of 200 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: I can make this go away if I just try 201 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: hard enough, totally. And here's what's amazing, her suffering with 202 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: the secret and her son died and what must have 203 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: been the most public active mass murder in recent memory, right. 204 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: I mean, she was denying herself her own suffering. She 205 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: was keeping it almost from herself, and it's so poignant 206 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: and it can be so corrosive to our souls, you know, 207 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 1: it can just rip us up, and I think it 208 00:12:56,559 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: did her. And then meanwhile, her husband, Bobby's father, Bob Senior, 209 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: was having, as you say, a completely almost polar opposite 210 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 1: kind of way way of responding. Yes, Bob was the 211 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,439 Speaker 1: polar opposite. Everything that was light colored on Helen's print 212 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: was dark color down hairs and everything that was dark 213 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: color and her print was light on his. I mean 214 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: that you just couldn't imagine two different ways of going 215 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: about grieving for Bob's Senior. It's not just that he 216 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: actively every day chooses to inhabit his grief and that 217 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:40,559 Speaker 1: he cries every day, that his grief just lives very 218 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: close to the surface. You just touch him, if you, 219 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: a whole vat of grief kind of spills out. It's 220 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 1: not just that, it's that for him, every day is 221 00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: kind of September twelve. It's like he wakes up and 222 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: he's as raw as he was almost the day he 223 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:59,959 Speaker 1: discovered it. And to me, this was just an amazing 224 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: revelation because there are all these kind of cultural wide 225 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,320 Speaker 1: imperatives that I think we have that, oh, you've got 226 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: to move on, You've got to move past your grief 227 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: or through your grief, or around your grief or something. Right. No, 228 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: not him. He had no interest. He wanted to live 229 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: in his grief. It seems like his form of grief 230 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 1: was about engaging with the details, real or imagined. Around 231 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: nine eleven and around Bobby's death was a way of 232 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: keeping Bobby alive exactly. I mean, he treated Bobby's death 233 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: as if it were an unsolved murder. He became over 234 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: time gradually very very interested in, um, all of the 235 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to call them conspiracy theories. He never would 236 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: he calls this nine eleven truth to me, the air 237 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy theories, that the government was behind this, that um, 238 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: this was an orchestrated hit. You know that the World 239 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: Trade Center was embroidered with explosives. And he became very 240 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: interested in in in sorry, explosive laid by the American 241 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: government and it was, you know, a controlled debt nation. 242 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: He had a theory for why they actually um destroyed it. 243 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: That's quite arcane. What got in his mind turning, though, 244 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: was that it was based on looking at the medical 245 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: examiners report of his son's death. You know, I think 246 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 1: what he initially was doing was simply worrying about um. 247 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: It was a very paternal instinct. He was haunted by 248 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: the idea that Bobby might have suffered right before he died, 249 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: that he might have expexiated, that he might have been up, 250 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: that he might have jumped right, that he didn't know 251 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: how he died. Um. And in getting medical examiner's report, 252 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: he saw how he died. I mean, he was decapitated, 253 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,520 Speaker 1: and which to me suggested a giant piece of to breathe, 254 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: you know, came boring out of the sky, and then 255 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: he didn't know what hit him. But for whatever set 256 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: of reasons, Bob Sor decided that because most of Bobby's 257 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: injuries were on his front, not on his back, he 258 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: had he couldn't have been running away from the building, 259 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: he had to have been inside it, and that this 260 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: had to have been an inside job. So he started 261 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: doing a lot of reading. He started reading history. He 262 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:26,960 Speaker 1: started doing all these things and came up with a 263 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 1: very laboratory for why the government might might have wanted 264 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: to destroy the World Trade Center. And you know, Bobby's 265 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: brother Jeff thinks that by saying, oh, this is merely 266 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: how he grieves, he thinks it's kind of trivializing his 267 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 1: efforts and that maybe so the Although what I think 268 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: is interesting is that Bob Senior said to me, in 269 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: doing this every day, he is definitely keeping his Bobby close, 270 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: that this is how he spends time in Bobby's company. 271 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 1: So I might be giving short trip to the theory 272 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: is because I don't believe in the theories. I think 273 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,399 Speaker 1: the theories are wrong headed. But he does not deny 274 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: that like they serve. It serves a purpose for him. 275 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: And in doing all this research, he gets to stay 276 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:12,600 Speaker 1: close to Bobby. He gets to do this and it's 277 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 1: a way to keep parenting. And it we kind of 278 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: forget Bobby was so young. He was so young, he 279 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: was only twenty six. He was still probably in some 280 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: way as a little boy to Bob, and he probably 281 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 1: wanted to actively parent him. You know. Still in some 282 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:31,640 Speaker 1: ways this is him being a father. We'll be right back. 283 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:45,480 Speaker 1: So Bobby kept he was a prolific journal keeper. He 284 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 1: left behind volumes and volumes of journals and thinking about 285 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 1: what it is to continue to parent, or to keep 286 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: someone alive, or to keep a relationship along Eve in 287 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: some way. You know, the journals become very very important 288 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: in this story. Helen and Bob, you know, have all 289 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: the journals. Um. There is a young woman named Jen 290 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: who is Bobby's girlfriend and is about to become Bobby's fiance. 291 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 1: He has a ring and he has asked her father 292 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 1: for her hand in marriage, and he um is about 293 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: to propose to her, and of course that never happens. 294 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: So Jen is his girlfriend and she doesn't have any 295 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: legal right to any of his possessions or belongings. And 296 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: Jen asks if she can have the last journal that 297 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 1: Bobby had been writing in, and Bob sr. Just hands 298 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: it to her without a thought, like, of course, here 299 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 1: here's a piece of Bobby. So that's a perfect summary. Um, 300 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 1: Bob Senior handed into her without giving it a second thought. 301 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: Because there they were cleaning out Bobby's bedroom, there was 302 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,840 Speaker 1: his last remaining journal open on his desk, and Jen 303 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: started reading it and noticed that she was on practically 304 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: every page, so it would be perfectly natural for her 305 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,919 Speaker 1: to want to have that right, and he was distributing 306 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: those journals anyway to everybody who was in the room. 307 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: It was my brother, it was two other friends. I 308 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: think we're there um And he was saying, you might 309 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: want to look at these in order to write your eulogies, 310 00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: because me and my wife I am not being any 311 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: shape to write them. And Helen was not even in 312 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: any shape to go and clean out that bedroom. She 313 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 1: was elsewhere. And if she had been in that bedroom, 314 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: she might have stopped her husband from giving away that 315 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: final journal was it was hugely important to her that 316 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:09,720 Speaker 1: she had every molecule of everything her son had ever had. 317 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,720 Speaker 1: All the objects of the dead, a lot of them 318 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: can just assume almost kind of talismanic property, like they 319 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,920 Speaker 1: just their proxies for the person you love. And what's 320 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: so interesting about a diary is that it's not even 321 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 1: the same as like a T shirt or a recovered photograph. 322 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: It's this unusual thing where you get to almost hear 323 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,640 Speaker 1: that person's voice again and to spend time in their company. 324 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: It's not a conversation or that it's not two ways, 325 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: but you are hearing from them. And she was so 326 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: devastated when she found out that her husband had given 327 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: away this final journal, because here was this chance to 328 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,399 Speaker 1: hear her son's voice one last time, and she was 329 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,040 Speaker 1: being robbed at that opportunity. Particularly, I mean he was 330 00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 1: at that moment. She had like all of his kind 331 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,760 Speaker 1: of child journals when he was a kid, but he 332 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: wasn't a fully formed adult. It wasn't like a chance 333 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,200 Speaker 1: to experience him and a grown human, you know. And 334 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: here was this most recent thing, and she she just 335 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:17,120 Speaker 1: she didn't have it suddenly, right, So she asks Jen 336 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: if Jen will part with it? Correct, She asked Jen 337 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: for it. She said, I would really like to see 338 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 1: parts of it. I understand it's about you, but and 339 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: Jen kind of demurred. She hemmed an odd, and she 340 00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: took the diary home with her. She went off to Michigan, 341 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: where she was from, and took some time by herself, 342 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: and then she came back and lived with the mcle 343 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: vans for about two months because she just couldn't stand 344 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 1: being in her apartment by herself. So there were many 345 00:21:46,920 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: opportunities for Helen to say, you know, I'd really like 346 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: to see that diary, which was no longer there, right, 347 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: It was in Jen's apartment, she had taken it and 348 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: then got off to Michigan, so the diary is not there. 349 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 1: Helen looking at this future almost daughter in law who 350 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: she doesn't know very well. She hadn't spent much time 351 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,120 Speaker 1: in her company and asking for it and not getting 352 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 1: the response she wants, and by the end she was begging. 353 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: She was simply saying, look, if Bobby is describing a tree, 354 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: can you just give me the words, Just tell me 355 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,440 Speaker 1: what he says about the tree. I just want the words, 356 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: just the words. And then still I never did it, 357 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: and her stay there ended in terrible tension, and with 358 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: Jen slamming the door behind her, bursting into tears and 359 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,520 Speaker 1: getting in her car and driving off. And you never 360 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: saw the Macaile names again. And when I saw Helen before, 361 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, to do this story Jen, she couldn't come 362 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: up with Jenn's last name. She kept saying, it's something short, 363 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: it's like Jen Cove. And I said it was Jennifer 364 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: Cobb and she said that's right, cop C O B B. 365 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: And I said she really had forgotten. She had buried 366 00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: her to which she buried her son. She had just forgotten. 367 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 1: It always really amazes me and humbles me. To think 368 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:24,640 Speaker 1: about what the ways in which our memories, especially our 369 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:31,200 Speaker 1: memories under the pressure of intense emotion UM just either 370 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: end up with these huge lakunai, you know, just these gaps, 371 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: or tell their own stories just you know that are 372 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: just different stories. And you know, one of the things 373 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,119 Speaker 1: that you're that you're describing now makes me think of 374 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:51,040 Speaker 1: a moment in your piece where where you you describe 375 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,560 Speaker 1: the yearning and searching stage of grief, right, and and 376 00:23:55,640 --> 00:24:00,959 Speaker 1: so at this point Helen and Jen too are in 377 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: this yearning and searching stage, and the journal has become 378 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: this kind of emblematic of that more than anything else. 379 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: It's a way to resurrect the dead, even though you 380 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: know that they can't be resurrected, right. That's when you 381 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,800 Speaker 1: are just desperately searching for them though you know rationally 382 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,480 Speaker 1: they're never coming back. So it's a widow crying out 383 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 1: to her husband as she's doing the dishes. They're talking 384 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: to him. You know, it's you can take many many forms. 385 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: It was first described by a pair of British second 386 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: psychiatrists UM. One of them was John Bulby, who did 387 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: um attachment theory. But yeah, I mean, but the real 388 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: kind of author of that is a guy named Colin 389 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: Murray Parks And yeah, it's perfect. And I think that 390 00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: Helen was stuck on that diary for like ten years. 391 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: She was yearning and searching, and she really really, um 392 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: got served bogged down in it. She took it to 393 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: the members of her that group that I was describing 394 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,800 Speaker 1: of women who had all lost kids. She would talk 395 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,159 Speaker 1: about it with them and they would joke about breaking 396 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 1: into Jennifer's house and liberating the diary, you know, so 397 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: that you could have it, stealing it. Um. She was 398 00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: really angry at her husband for a very long time. 399 00:25:17,760 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: She would needle him about it, you know, for years, 400 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: this one on. She couldn't get past it. There was 401 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,560 Speaker 1: one phrase that Helen became very focused on. She wasn't 402 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: sure where she had read it or heard it, um, 403 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: but the phrase was Bobby's, she was certain, and it 404 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 1: was life loves on and she was very focused on that. 405 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: And that became a kind of motto or or a 406 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: way of thinking for the family that Bobby had said that, 407 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: and that that's what they needed to do exactly. It 408 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: became like some kind of organizing motto for their grief. 409 00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: And to your point, about how humbling and mind blowing 410 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: it is that our memories can desert us. She has 411 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: that motto of life loves non engraved in a bracelet right, 412 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: that she wears every day. A friend gave it, gave 413 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: it to her. Her friends also took on that motto. 414 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,919 Speaker 1: They have it like sort of stamped at the bottom 415 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: of their emails. His and Bob Senior has its tattooed 416 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: on his arm, right. I mean, so this is on 417 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: his skin. So you would think, if you are going 418 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: to live by that phrase that your son has written, 419 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: you would like know where it came from, where there 420 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,720 Speaker 1: was some idea. And yet she hands me all these 421 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 1: diaries and tells me, okay, well, I know it's in here, 422 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: And she thinks that she knows where it is, and 423 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: she goes looking for it. She sure she knows where 424 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: it comes from, which is that when like a family 425 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 1: friend died, he wrote it then, but it turned out 426 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: out to be there. So I went on this mad 427 00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 1: aunt to find this phrase. And you know how I 428 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:03,760 Speaker 1: found it. I'm not sure I want to give it away, 429 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,199 Speaker 1: but it was this extraordinarily I mean, it was this 430 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 1: insane kind of uh F loosing adventure that I went 431 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: on to find this thing, and it turns out. I mean, 432 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: if you want to talk about secrets you keep from yourself, 433 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: she knew, everyone in the family knew. They had just 434 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: all forgotten where it came from. They had just forgotten. 435 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 1: And it is amazing what we can. As you said, 436 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: the lakna and our memories are just extraordinary. I mean 437 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 1: they are. They are the size of an ocean sometimes 438 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: and you can't believe it. It should be solid land, 439 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: you know. I mean the things that we know to 440 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: be certain, sometimes they're just made of water. We'll be 441 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: back in a moment with more family secrets. I want 442 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: to quote one other little passage from from Your Peace, 443 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: which is memories of traumatic experiences are a curious thing. 444 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: Some are vivid, some are pale. Pretty much all of 445 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 1: them have been amended in some way great or small. 446 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 1: There seems to be no rhyme or reason to our 447 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: curated reels. We remember the trivial and forget the exceptional. 448 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: Our minds truly have minds of their own. So I 449 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: don't think it would be giving anything away, and everyone 450 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: should just simply read your beautiful piece. But to say 451 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 1: that down the road once this phrase and its origin 452 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: has been tracked down, you know, like the Holy Grail. Um. 453 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 1: You send it to your editor at the Atlantic, like 454 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: a screen, a screenshot of where it was, and he 455 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:53,560 Speaker 1: sends you a note that says and and Bobby has 456 00:28:53,600 --> 00:29:00,240 Speaker 1: like very dense, sort of indecipherable, you know, difficult to 457 00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 1: make out handwriting. And your editor writes to you and says, 458 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: isn't it life lives on, not life love? So exactly 459 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: yes he did, and my heart sank and I mean, 460 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: I I can't tell you. I mean I was on 461 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: an amtrack and I almost started to scream. I did 462 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: not know what to do, because then you're faced with 463 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 1: a real journalistic conundrum, which is do you tell a 464 00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: family that's been living by this modo for twenty years? 465 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 1: You know, it's almost there's a word for this um 466 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: when when it's an oral misapprehension, when you hear something incorrectly, 467 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: it's called a Manda green And you know, like the 468 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: Jimi Hendricks excuse me while I kissed the sky and 469 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 1: everybody thinks it's excuse me while I kiss this guy? 470 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:52,480 Speaker 1: You know, so it's like the equivalent of that, but 471 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: in print, where you're looking at the wrong like it 472 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: was just it was misinterpreted, it was misrad it didn't 473 00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: mat are. In the end, it didn't matter. Bobby's journals 474 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: are filled with wisdom, all kinds of unexpected wisdom. The 475 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: funny and amazing and weird thing is that although Helen 476 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: and Bob had lots of Bobby's journals for a while, um, 477 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: they didn't read them very much. And there's lots of 478 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: great things in there. When I finally glimpsed that diary, 479 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 1: I'm happy to say that there was plenty in there 480 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: to look at that I thought was really much more 481 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: beautiful and much more resonant um then Life lives On. 482 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: Life loves On. You know, it's a little bit hallmarky. 483 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: Life loves On. It's slightly more profound because it suggests 484 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: we have some kind of drive to love in our 485 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: hearts no matter what. And I kind of liked it. 486 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: But Life Lives On is kind of disappointing. It didn't matter. 487 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: There's there's plenty that Bob observed and said in his 488 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: life that's much more interesting. But in the funny, I 489 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: mean that, like this is this is how our memories 490 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: get me. They get made falsely, or they don't matter 491 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: you know, we choose to live, but they become that 492 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: person's words. You know, we are constantly inventing and reinventing 493 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: the dead. At this point, Bobby may as well have 494 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: said it, and it's something he could have said. And 495 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: I think that that's even more interesting in a funny way, 496 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: is that we're all perfectly happy to assign him those 497 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: words because they seem so Bobby. He was just this 498 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: little Yoda boy, you know, so like why not sure? 499 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: It seemed Bobby like l his loves whatever, so true 500 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:35,240 Speaker 1: that in the end it doesn't really matter. I mean 501 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 1: the way that Helen got, you know, fixated on the 502 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: journal for all those years, you the journalists got fixated 503 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,719 Speaker 1: on the phrase right and find and finding it um. 504 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: And in the end, it doesn't really matter where the 505 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: phrase came from or even exactly what the phrase was 506 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,560 Speaker 1: in the profound emotional scheme of the story. When you 507 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: do travel to Washington, d C. And And you you 508 00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 1: meet Jen, Bobby's girlfriend, Um, she is prepared to and 509 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: has you know, wanted to for years, have Helen be 510 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: able to read the journal? Um. She gives you the 511 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: journal and says, at some point, I'd love to have 512 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,920 Speaker 1: this back. But you know here, I mean, one of 513 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: the most moving parts of your piece are Helen's epiphany 514 00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: when she reads Bobby's final journal that Bobby was a 515 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: young man, he wasn't a boy anymore, and that she 516 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: his mother, wasn't at the center of his life, that 517 00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: Jen was at the center of his life, which is 518 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: why Jen had so desperately wanted to hold on to 519 00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: that that piece of him, the painful secret that was 520 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: sort of in this journal. I mean, well, you know, 521 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: in some ways, Helen just wanted it because she wanted 522 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: everything that was Bobby's. She just wanted to reconstruct him. 523 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: It was just some metaphorical way of making him a 524 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: whole if she couldn't have him. But in some ways 525 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,080 Speaker 1: it was also just glimpsing who he was at that 526 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 1: moment in time, being able to spend time in his 527 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,000 Speaker 1: company again, and yes, wanting to see you know, she 528 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: was all over his previous journals. His family was all 529 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: over his previous journals. He spoke glowingly about his family 530 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,560 Speaker 1: and those journals he was still a young boy, and 531 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: unlike most adolescent kids, he wasn't ripping up his family. 532 00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: He was talking about how great that he were he 533 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: was very close to them, so I think her fantasy 534 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: in some way was that there would just be more 535 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 1: about the nuclear family. But it was a relief. I 536 00:33:56,000 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: think in some ways it is to discover, oh, he 537 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: was his own man. I was you know, I wasn't 538 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 1: a part of his life anymore. And there are things 539 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 1: in that journal that are so mind blowing that like 540 00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 1: shed whole windows into like I mean, there are goose 541 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 1: pimpling things. But I mean I think that that was 542 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: like a big takeaway for her. In some ways, it 543 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: was to sort of see, oh, my boys all grown up, 544 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: he's all grown up. That this wasn't about me. I 545 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: mean the things that it was about We're extraordinary. That 546 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 1: the journal was about We're extraordinary, you know. And the 547 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: words in that journal were extraordinary. I mean I get 548 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: I get chills just thinking about them. What is so 549 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: amazing is that there was this thing that was looming 550 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: for twenty years that she was sure contained. It did 551 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: not contain it never does, It did not have inside 552 00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: it what she thought it did, And the reasons Jen 553 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,839 Speaker 1: kept it weren't the reasons she thought she did. You know, 554 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: all the motives we assigned to other people are never 555 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: the stories we tell ourselves are so often stories that 556 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 1: are true, you know, how we know what we think 557 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 1: we know did not end up being the right thing. 558 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,239 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, having the wrong tattoo, having the 559 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 1: wrong story, and in some ways a metaphor for everything. 560 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: You know. It also strikes me that in the end, 561 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 1: in being able to see that final journal, she actually 562 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: had a moment that she would have had had Bobby lived, 563 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: which was the realization, oh, my boy is a young 564 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: man and I am not, you know, the sun at 565 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: the center of his universe, I am, and and and 566 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: that she she actually ended up developmentally getting to have that, 567 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:53,479 Speaker 1: even though way later and in a completely heartbreaking way. Yeah, 568 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 1: that's a beautiful way of putting it. I mean, I 569 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:00,799 Speaker 1: think that again, because he was so young, so much 570 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: of his life was still locked away in his mother's 571 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: heart as like her little boy, you know, and why 572 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,280 Speaker 1: why wouldn't he be sort of enshrined in that way 573 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,439 Speaker 1: and her heart in her memory? But you are dead, 574 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,759 Speaker 1: and had she got to go to a wedding and 575 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: see him pledge his love to to Jen, had she 576 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:25,959 Speaker 1: had a tiny grand baby, you know, from Bobby anything, 577 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 1: seen them by a house, seen them even move in together. 578 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: He was still living with my brother, you know. I 579 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: mean he still seemed like a kid. He still seemed 580 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: like a kid. So as you say, yes, I think 581 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 1: that it did allow her maybe to right go one 582 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 1: beat further down the road and see him as a 583 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,399 Speaker 1: fully realized adult. I mean she knew it anyway, but 584 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 1: I think that this was living in his head, in 585 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,839 Speaker 1: his mature head, as a person whose thoughts were now 586 00:36:54,960 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: utterly consumed by someone else. I will never ever encourage 587 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: anyone to get on with their lives, even gently. Um. 588 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: I think it's a kind of tyranny. I think some 589 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 1: people never get beyond their grief, and that's the choice 590 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: they make, and they or don't make their chiefs. Their 591 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:17,319 Speaker 1: griefs just holds them and not the other way. They 592 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: can't hold it. And that's one thing I learned from 593 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,240 Speaker 1: being around Bob SR. It's not for me to judge 594 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: if it gets in the way of your family's life. 595 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: It's something that you have to deal with, and it's 596 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: something you have to contend with within the marriage. All 597 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: those things. But I think the biggest thing is like 598 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: the epistemological thing that we have been discussing, which is like, 599 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 1: how do you know what you know? I mean, no 600 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,000 Speaker 1: one had the same I mean, let me just put 601 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 1: this out there. Helen thought that Jen had lived with 602 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: the family for one week after Bobby died. Jeff, Bobby's 603 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: younger brother, who was living with his parents at the time, 604 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: I thought the Jen lived with them for six months. 605 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,280 Speaker 1: Jen thought it was for two months. Okay. They thought 606 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 1: they were sure they knew where Life Loved On came from, 607 00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 1: and they were wrong. They had no idea where it 608 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: came from. Jen was sure when she was living with 609 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: the mackail Vane's that she slept in Bobby's brother's room, 610 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: and that Jeff very bravely slept in his brother's bed, 611 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 1: his dead brother's bed, whereas Jeff was absolutely certain that 612 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 1: Jen very bravely slept in her dead fiance's bed. I mean, 613 00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: in me think I can never sit anywhere and argue 614 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: with any kind of force about any memory that I have, 615 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: about anything that I think I know and be dead 616 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,960 Speaker 1: certain anymore. And that doesn't mean that truth doesn't exist, 617 00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,520 Speaker 1: that there are isn't such a thing as like real 618 00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 1: objective truth. I think that there is, But I mean, 619 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,680 Speaker 1: I I just think in terms of the fallibility of 620 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 1: our own memories. I think that are our emotions so 621 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: shape them, misshaped them, reshape them, crittify them, discolor them, 622 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 1: do all sorts of things, you know. I mean the 623 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,040 Speaker 1: image that I have have is of a snow globe 624 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: getting all shaken up. That if you had reported this 625 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 1: story four years ago, or if you had reported it 626 00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:23,719 Speaker 1: four years from now, those memories among all of the 627 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,759 Speaker 1: macall vean's might be completely different than the ones that 628 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:33,240 Speaker 1: they had during that sliver of time. Oh for sure. 629 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,359 Speaker 1: I had memories of the macall van's telling me things 630 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: about their grief at years three and four, because I 631 00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:40,720 Speaker 1: would see them. They would come to inventit my parents, 632 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: you know. I would see them when I was visiting 633 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: my mom in Florida. They they would um, you know, 634 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,479 Speaker 1: sort of describe things, and I would raise them during 635 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 1: the interview and they wouldn't remember having said them to me, 636 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: you know. I mean, I had very different memories of 637 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: what they told me about their grieving. And here's something, Okay, 638 00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 1: here's something. This is I think the craziest thing. After 639 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,359 Speaker 1: the piece came out, I had dinner with Jeff and Jen, 640 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: who hadn't seen each other, in twenty years and Jeff 641 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: said to me, you know, I really love the piece. 642 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,399 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you something. I both did and did 643 00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: not recognize my dad. Everything that he said to you, 644 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: you captured accurately and exactly. And it's one facet of 645 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: my father, but it's not the only facet of my father. 646 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: I know a very different man. I know a different guy. 647 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,040 Speaker 1: And when my wife read that story, she wasn't sure 648 00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: she recognized the man you described either. It's just one 649 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: side of himself that he was interested in showing you. 650 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 1: And I'm sitting there thinking, well, I'm a journalist. I 651 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: thought I captured him much better, you know, a much 652 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: fuller kind of complex. I thought I didn't. I didn't 653 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 1: think he was like mono dimensional at all. I thought 654 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,000 Speaker 1: that I had really captured something about his essence. But 655 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 1: they were telling me that I missed something, which means 656 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: that I had the wrong tattoo. I mean, what do 657 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,360 Speaker 1: you do with that? How do we know? What? We know? 658 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,480 Speaker 1: All the selves, all of the selves within us, and 659 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,879 Speaker 1: all the stories right, all the stories we tell? How 660 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: reliable are our stories and our memories? How well you know? 661 00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: How reliable was the thing that I wrote you? Know. 662 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:26,360 Speaker 1: I thought it was pretty darn reliable and it was, 663 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: you know, and it wasn't. For more podcasts for my 664 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, 665 00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,680 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,