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Speaker 1: Well, Brian, this is it the last stop on our

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Speaker 1: London tour, and who better to close it out than

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Speaker 1: the right Honorable the Lord Fellows of West Stafford. Say what, Katie,

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Speaker 1: don't be so as you normally are. I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: Julian Fellows, the creator of one of my and I

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Speaker 1: know your all time favorite TV shows, Downton Abbey. Do

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Speaker 1: Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do Do

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Speaker 1: Do Do Do Do that one that was your most

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Speaker 1: stirring rendition. Yet you know, my wife actually uses that

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Speaker 1: as her ring tone, so I hear fifteen times a.

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Speaker 1: That's so funny. And Julian really is the man behind

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Speaker 1: the show, the only man. He didn't have a writing

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Speaker 1: staff for Dowton. He penned every episode himself, well, with

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Speaker 1: a little help from his wife, Emma, his preferred second reader. Brian, Now,

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Speaker 1: you and I are admittedly both very big fans, and

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Speaker 1: in fact, my wife and I once hosted a premier

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Speaker 1: party at our home for Dowton. Of course you did, Brian.

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Speaker 1: I didn't have a party, but I was equally obsessed,

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Speaker 1: and if you don't believe me, I actually retrieved some

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Speaker 1: of my live tweets from that era. One was Carson

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Speaker 1: fetched me some brandy, I'm retiring. I must get some

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Speaker 1: rest to face tomorrow. By the way, Lady Mary getting

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Speaker 1: on my nerves. Hashtag doubt and PBS or please let

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Speaker 1: there be good things in store for Edith. If not,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to find her husband hashtag I need to

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Speaker 1: get a life. Yes, I was really really into Doubton Abbey,

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Speaker 1: So Katie. One thing that really surprised me to learn

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Speaker 1: about Julianne, for all of his successes, is that he's

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Speaker 1: actually the quintessential late bloomer. Things really started to go

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Speaker 1: his way when he wrote the screenplay for Gosford Park

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Speaker 1: and won an oscar at fifty two. So, Brian, there's

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Speaker 1: hope for you. This is true and very encouraging as well.

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Speaker 1: So we talked with Julianne about Dowton a lot and

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Speaker 1: what it is about social class in the UK that

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Speaker 1: fascinates him so much. We also, of course covered the

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Speaker 1: Royal wedding, Julian stint as a young actor in l

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Speaker 1: A and we even had our first ever live listener

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Speaker 1: cameo that's right. A shout out to listener Jill Apple

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Speaker 1: who asked Lord julian a kick asked question about his

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Speaker 1: writing for the stage. I'm really happy that Jill got

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Speaker 1: to join us and observe our making magic person. I

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Speaker 1: wonder if she's less impressed or more impressed now, probably

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Speaker 1: the former. Meanwhile, to kick things off, I couldn't help

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Speaker 1: myself and on behalf of all you listeners who loved

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Speaker 1: Downton Abbey. I had to spend the first several minutes gushing.

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Speaker 1: We're very thrilled to have you, Mr Julian Fellows, thank

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Speaker 1: you very much for being here. I don't think you

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Speaker 1: should say Mr Julia, either say Lord Fellows or Julian Fellows,

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Speaker 1: which I think would be more appropriate. Okay, good, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that I need somebody like you around all

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Speaker 1: the time. So Julian Fellows, welcome to our podcast. We're

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Speaker 1: absolutely thrilled have you. I'm thrilled to be here, and

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Speaker 1: we have so much to talk about because I'm obsessed

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Speaker 1: with so many of the things that you do. First off,

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Speaker 1: I miss Lady Mary and Matthew Crawley and Edith and

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Speaker 1: Lord and Lady Grantham and Anna and Bates and Carson.

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Speaker 1: Do you, of course? I mean they became so central

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Speaker 1: to my life. I mean this went on for seven

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Speaker 1: or eight years, because it ran for six years. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and so they were by the end woven into the

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Speaker 1: very wolf of my thinking, you know. And of course

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Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not mad they didn't become real, you know,

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Speaker 1: but but they acquire a kind of spurious reality to you,

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Speaker 1: and you want them to be happy and you want

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Speaker 1: things to work out, you know. So yes, I do.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't regret ending the show. I think

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Speaker 1: it had run its course. And I think with all

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Speaker 1: of these things, well, with everything in life, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're you're aware of coming to the end of a

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Speaker 1: chapter that you have been enjoyed very much, but it's

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Speaker 1: time to move on. And I think we got to

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Speaker 1: that point. There may be a film, of course, that's

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Speaker 1: what we're hearing. I was. I was worried it would

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Speaker 1: go the way of Sex in the City three, which

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Speaker 1: is often compared. I'm sure I never criticize anyone else's work.

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Speaker 1: It is as difficult to make a bad film as

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Speaker 1: it is to make a good one. But I hope

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Speaker 1: there is a film, because I think it would be

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Speaker 1: a nice sort of Bond Bush way of finishing. And

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Speaker 1: then everyone goes off and has the rest of their career.

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Speaker 1: Can I ask a stupid question? What is bon bush?

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Speaker 1: It's when you're finishing a feed and everything or you

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Speaker 1: put all the delicious bits together in one mouthful and

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Speaker 1: finish it and then the plate is empty. Ah. And

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Speaker 1: is it a noun or a verb. It's a noun

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Speaker 1: and an adjective. Bun good bush mouthful. Interesting. Sort of

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Speaker 1: the opposite of amuse bush well amuse girl is at here.

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Speaker 1: We got a throat tickler, which is how you begin

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Speaker 1: the feed, not an ammuz bush well. I suppose people

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Speaker 1: could use amos bush, but the normal phrase in France

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Speaker 1: is sammie skirt. Interesting. Okay, I've learned something today. Well,

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Speaker 1: we have to getting back to Downton, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: we're gonna learn many other things from you. Julian. Why

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Speaker 1: in the world did Matthew get killed off? Well, Darling Matthew,

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Speaker 1: I thought you were going to I thought you were

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Speaker 1: calling me darling everyone you know. The first question I

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Speaker 1: get asked is why did Matthew have to die? And

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Speaker 1: the truth is Dan Stevens, who is a lovely chap

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Speaker 1: very very nice man, and was wonderful as Matthew, but

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Speaker 1: he felt that it was time for him to move on.

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Speaker 1: You see, in England you can only get actors for

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Speaker 1: three years before you have to renegotiate. In America you

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Speaker 1: tend to get them for five. Here it's three, and

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Speaker 1: after the first three years you'll never get them for

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Speaker 1: more than two. So all the time you're renegotiating. And

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Speaker 1: Matthew had been offered a dan, had been offered a film,

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Speaker 1: and he'd been offered a play on Broadway and Diddley Donk,

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Speaker 1: and he decided it was time to move on. My

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Speaker 1: problem was that right from the beginning, Jessica Brown Findley

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Speaker 1: has said I'm doing three years and then that's it. Well,

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Speaker 1: when a servant character says that they get another job,

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Speaker 1: there's no problem. Off they go, you know, O'Brien goes

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Speaker 1: off to work for Lady flinch Er, Bye goodbye. But

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Speaker 1: when a family member is never going to be seen again,

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Speaker 1: it's the grim Reaper. And so we did various bits

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Speaker 1: of research and and we discovered that a clamps here

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Speaker 1: was still a big killer in the twenties. It was

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Speaker 1: only really in the thirties that they started to get

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Speaker 1: on top of it as a condition, and really in

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Speaker 1: the twenties the only treatment was to have an early cesarean,

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Speaker 1: and even that was by no means always successful. But

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Speaker 1: once you had started to fit, have fits, then you

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Speaker 1: were going to die. And what I also discovered was

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Speaker 1: that there was, in many, many, many instances, this false

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Speaker 1: ending where you seemed all right, the baby was born,

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Speaker 1: everything was fine, and that would last for maybe two

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Speaker 1: or three hours, and then the fitting started again and

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Speaker 1: you died. Of course, as I read this, I thought,

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Speaker 1: but this is ideal for television, because we have the

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Speaker 1: happy ending followed by the tragedy. Um and that was

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Speaker 1: what I went for. And we wrote it, and I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: I'll kill her in episode five and then they've got

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Speaker 1: three to get over it, you know, and all of that,

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Speaker 1: and that character was, of course one of my favorites.

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Speaker 1: Oh she was wonderful, and Jessica was wonderful in the part.

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Speaker 1: But that was all done and dusted, written, director, found cast,

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Speaker 1: and then we get to the read through and and

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Speaker 1: Dan comes up and says, I've been thinking about this

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Speaker 1: and I've decided to leave to I said, you can't.

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Speaker 1: I said, how about you? We have happy ending Christmas

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Speaker 1: the baby, and then you come back and next year

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Speaker 1: we'll kill you in episode one he said, no, I

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Speaker 1: just feel I've come to the end of this and

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Speaker 1: i'm it's time for me to move on, which of

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Speaker 1: course I understand. I'm not you know, I remember being

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Speaker 1: an actor and you you have to go with your gup.

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Speaker 1: There's no other guide. You must do what you feel.

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Speaker 1: So I thought, oh BlimE it, because if I had

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Speaker 1: known they were both going, then they would have gone

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Speaker 1: over the cliff in a car or something. So I

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Speaker 1: had to kill him off. But I couldn't do any

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Speaker 1: more memorials funerals because then the whole series would turn

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Speaker 1: into six ft under and so the only way to

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Speaker 1: get round that was to kill him in the last

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Speaker 1: shot of the show. The problem of that was that

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Speaker 1: in England the last episode was played on Christmas night,

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Speaker 1: so suddenly that was the whole British population watching down't

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Speaker 1: and putting in that one minutes by too many and suddenly,

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Speaker 1: and you should see the letters I got after that.

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Speaker 1: Really I thought I was going to leave the country. Really,

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Speaker 1: I will never watch anything with your name on it again,

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Speaker 1: because you personally had killed him. I killed him, and

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Speaker 1: I killed him out of malice. Yes, you know the

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Speaker 1: idea that Dan wanted to go didn't seem to occur

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Speaker 1: to anyone. So Julian, let's go back a bit to

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Speaker 1: where this all started. How was the idea of Downton

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Speaker 1: Abbey conceived? Well, I don't know if you remember, but

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Speaker 1: years ago I wrote a film, the first film I

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Speaker 1: wrote that got made actually for what you want to

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Speaker 1: ask her for which I want to discussed them a

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Speaker 1: little bit, but yes, I'm a huge fan of Gosford Park.

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Speaker 1: Well that was Gosford Park, and um, Gareth Neeme had

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Speaker 1: been a producer, television producer, had been watching it and

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Speaker 1: he suddenly thought, I wonder if we could go into

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Speaker 1: this territory for television. And I knew him because we've

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Speaker 1: been trying to set up actually funny enough, something completely

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Speaker 1: different which didn't get off the ground. But I knew

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Speaker 1: him and we were having dinner, I think we met

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Speaker 1: for dinner to talk about it, and he put the

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Speaker 1: idea to me of going back into that territory, and

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Speaker 1: of course I said, well, we've got to go back

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Speaker 1: because the whole point of Gosford Park was that the

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Speaker 1: subtext was that it was all coming to an end,

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Speaker 1: and so we went back twenty years from nine thirty

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Speaker 1: two to nineteen twelve, because we didn't want to start

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Speaker 1: at the end and fall enough. Initially I rather resisted it,

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Speaker 1: you know, I thought, I don't know, asking for a

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Speaker 1: second helping in a But then I started to sort

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Speaker 1: of toy with the idea. And and I was reading

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Speaker 1: a book about the American heiresses, the so called buccaneers,

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Speaker 1: who had married into the peerage in the last sort

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Speaker 1: of twenty years of the nineteenth century and up to

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Speaker 1: the First Fold War. Really uh I and I found

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Speaker 1: myself thinking, well, we all know about those lovely young

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Speaker 1: American debs running down the gang plank into the arms

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Speaker 1: of a marquiz, But what was it like twenty years

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Speaker 1: later when they were sitting in some freezing house in Staffordshire,

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Speaker 1: longing to be back on Rhode Island. And and I

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Speaker 1: thought that would be fun to explore the American heiress.

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Speaker 1: But later when she'd lived the life in England, and

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Speaker 1: she had that thing which you see among all our friends,

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Speaker 1: where your children are a different nationality from yourself, and

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Speaker 1: they have different prejudices and different assumptions, and how do

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Speaker 1: people deal with that? Which interests me anyway? And so

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Speaker 1: in that sense, Cora Grantham was born. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you write for television, but when

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Speaker 1: you started to imagine characters, you have actually accepted the job,

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Speaker 1: even if you don't know it. And so that's how

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Speaker 1: it began. And the relationship between Cora and Mary is

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Speaker 1: so delicious because Mary almost thinks of her own mother

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Speaker 1: as unworthy of her class. Well, that really came from

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Speaker 1: a very grand English friend of mine, who was born

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Speaker 1: in a great family and married into a great family

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Speaker 1: and so on, of a fabulous woman. But she had

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Speaker 1: had an American mother, and I always noticed that when

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Speaker 1: she spoke of her mother, there was a sort of

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Speaker 1: faint air of tolerance, you know, that that she was

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Speaker 1: a good woman at heart and must be forgiven her

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Speaker 1: folible And I'm sure that came from having an American mother.

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Speaker 1: And as I watched it, I found it so amusing

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Speaker 1: that I thought, when I was putting the series together,

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Speaker 1: that that would be fun to mine. There has been

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Speaker 1: some criticism, of course, um and it basically is that

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Speaker 1: by showing the upper class as essentially benevolent and kind

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Speaker 1: and exhibiting a sort of nostalgia for that period when

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Speaker 1: people knew their place, you were yourself sending a political message.

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Speaker 1: There's a there's a labor leader in Britain named Francis

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Speaker 1: O'Grady who said, unfortunately Britain is becoming like Downton Abbey

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Speaker 1: in the sense that the living standards of the vast

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Speaker 1: majority are sacrificed to protect the high living of the

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Speaker 1: well to do, And in saying so he was he

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Speaker 1: was criticizing Downton Um. That was in the context so that, so,

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Speaker 1: what what is your kind of response to a number

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Speaker 1: of people who said that it wasn't perceived as equal

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Speaker 1: the two classes, Well, they weren't equal at that time.

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Speaker 1: I mean in terms of their intentions and character that

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Speaker 1: you were essentially portraying the upper class as more sympathetically

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Speaker 1: than the servants down ste I like the servants more

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Speaker 1: than that. The servants were often people's favorite characters, and

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Speaker 1: something like the romance of Anna and Bates was absolutely

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Speaker 1: as seriously dramatized as the romance of Matthew and Mary.

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Speaker 1: I think that is false. What I think is not

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Speaker 1: false is that it wasn't an equal society. And there

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Speaker 1: is a limit to how much you can just throw

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Speaker 1: a kind of Pink Cloud over the past. You have

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Speaker 1: to represent their values, the contemporary values reasonably, honestly. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when Todd we were dealing with Thomas's homosexuality, for instance,

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Speaker 1: we couldn't immediately have every sympathetic character saying, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is great, because in nineve that wouldn't be their response.

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Speaker 1: And so what I strove for was to have some

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Speaker 1: people who didn't mind, like Robert Grantham or Mrs Hughes Carson,

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Speaker 1: who was rather offended by the whole thing, and so on,

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Speaker 1: so it would be reasonably balanced. But you know, I

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Speaker 1: think you're bound to do that if you're representing a

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Speaker 1: period in a history. But I don't think it was

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Speaker 1: a benevolent view. I mean these I heard one guy

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Speaker 1: on television in America say the terrible injustice of the

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Speaker 1: show was that I Julian Fellers had portrayed the upper

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Speaker 1: classes as likable. Well, you know, that's just nonsense. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in any group of people, some people are likable, some

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Speaker 1: people are not. Some of them are good looking, some

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Speaker 1: are not, some of them are clever, some of them

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Speaker 1: are stupid. And that's true of any class, of any nationality,

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Speaker 1: of any religion, of any social grouping you can find.

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Speaker 1: And the idea that one class is unlikable is as

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Speaker 1: reasonable as saying one people has rhythm or one people

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Speaker 1: is good with money. It's all nonsense as and and

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Speaker 1: so I would absolutely reject that. One of the most

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Speaker 1: moving I think many There are many movie moments in

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Speaker 1: the series, but they often occur when the two classes meet.

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Speaker 1: And in this scene that we're about to hear is

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Speaker 1: when Mary's husband Matthew dies in a car crash, as

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Speaker 1: we mentioned, and her butler Carson consoles her, let's listen,

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Speaker 1: you cry. You have a good cry, and it's what's

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Speaker 1: needing now. And when you're ready, you can get to

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Speaker 1: work because you are strong enough. Yeah, you're strong enough

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Speaker 1: for the task. What am I gossip? But that's the point.

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Speaker 1: Papa doesn't seem to think. So don't you want it

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Speaker 1: to Mr Crawley to protect his work, to fight for

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Speaker 1: the changes he made, to stare down and in the

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Speaker 1: right direction. I know I can always count on you

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Speaker 1: for a draft of self confidence whenever I started out,

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Speaker 1: and you will always find one here. There's the second

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Speaker 1: you know there's was such a tender relationship. It is

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Speaker 1: so moving, and you know you listen to that, and

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Speaker 1: you realize how critically important the right music is. Right's

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Speaker 1: only the delivery. John Land, of course, was one of

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Speaker 1: the big stars of the series. I mean his theme

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Speaker 1: tune alone made you half cry, so I mean he

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Speaker 1: was wonderful. But I mean what people don't seem to

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Speaker 1: understand is that, whether the system was just or unjust,

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Speaker 1: you don't want people in your house, in your sight,

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Speaker 1: helping you every day, helping you get dressed, helping you

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Speaker 1: arrange everything, whom you don't like. Obviously, you want to

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Speaker 1: work with people you like, and of course with with

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Speaker 1: the upper servants. I mean, I'm not pretending everyone was

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Speaker 1: tremendously friendly with their kitchen maide, but with the upper servants,

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Speaker 1: with the buttlet, with the ladies maid, with the valet.

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Speaker 1: Often these friendships occurred. And remember the children of a

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Speaker 1: great house mixed very freely with the servants, and often

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Speaker 1: we're fed downstairs and ran in and out of the

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Speaker 1: kitchen and net the cake mix and all that stuff

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Speaker 1: went on when they were growing up because it was

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Speaker 1: generally thought that it was bad for children to be

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Speaker 1: too snotty, and so, for instance, a child had to

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Speaker 1: address the butler as Mr Carson his his parents would

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Speaker 1: call him Carson, but the child would call him Mr. Carson.

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Speaker 1: So there was a kind of balance going on all

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Speaker 1: the time, which now I mean because people want to

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Speaker 1: condemn that way of life for their own reasons, some

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Speaker 1: of them perfectly valid. I mean, I'm not criticizing that,

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Speaker 1: but because they want to condemn it, they have to

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Speaker 1: represent it as completely horrible, whereas obviously you wouldn't want

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Speaker 1: to be attended at your dressing table by someone you loathed.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's not realistic. And when the system

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Speaker 1: collapsed after the war, for I mean for everyone, but

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Speaker 1: for most people, it was often the balots and the

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Speaker 1: maids who stayed on as companions and all round housekeepers

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Speaker 1: and all the rest of it, because they were already

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Speaker 1: so intimate. We'll talk about how you became so fascinated

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Speaker 1: by class in a moment, but I want to mention

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Speaker 1: that you deal with many tough issues. You mentioned Thomas's homosexuality,

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Speaker 1: but you talk a lot about women's rights. You talk

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Speaker 1: about as you mentioned, the abysmal sort of state of

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Speaker 1: medical care back then, sexual assault, war in peace, I mean,

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Speaker 1: all sorts of big, thorny issues you were trying to

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Speaker 1: help people understand history. But really more than that, weren't

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Speaker 1: you Yes, I mean, you know, we were accused of

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Speaker 1: being nostalgic because there are elements where sort of women

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Speaker 1: in beautiful clothes strolling around some wonderful lawn with a

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Speaker 1: house in the background, you know, and you drink a

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Speaker 1: glass of wine and everything feels great. But the truth

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Speaker 1: was it was a period of great change, and many

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Speaker 1: of the issues we are dealing with now you find

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Speaker 1: in the kernel there. I mean, women's rights. Really in

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Speaker 1: the second half of the nineteenth century were building and

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Speaker 1: building and building and building in a way that they

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Speaker 1: weren't in the eighteenth century. I mean, you get some

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Speaker 1: instances of people saying, why we're living in this system,

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Speaker 1: But by the second half of the nineteen there was

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Speaker 1: a kind of gathering head of steam that would end

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Speaker 1: in major change. And that generation of women, I know,

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Speaker 1: we now say, oh, they were only being secretaries, they

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Speaker 1: were only being this, they were only being that, But

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Speaker 1: in fact they were four waging the way forward. They

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00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 1: were wholly admirable, and it is because of them that

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Speaker 1: their granddaughters are now running I c R. It's true

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Speaker 1: because you would see Edith's ascension, and you would see

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Speaker 1: Sybil taking on a much more active role, Mary learning

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Speaker 1: sort of how to run sure of the estate. So

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Speaker 1: you saw, you saw glimpses of that even culminating in

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Speaker 1: real advancements. But I was shocked to learn that you

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Speaker 1: wrote the show entirely on your own, well not entirely

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Speaker 1: on your own. You had one editor, and I'm curious, Uh,

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Speaker 1: well she was and what her role? You know? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think you know everything is a group effort, and

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Speaker 1: certainly everything and entertainment is a group. And you had

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Speaker 1: no writer's room. You had no you know, staff, I

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00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,480
Speaker 1: have no other writers. I had my wife to deal with.

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Speaker 1: She read it first. This is very boring, you know,

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Speaker 1: this doesn't make sense. He would never say this, And

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Speaker 1: so I had to do with all that first. And

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Speaker 1: then I had Garethnee who I was talking about, and

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Speaker 1: Liz true Bridge and who was our sort of line

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Speaker 1: producer on set. She was really at the front, you know.

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Speaker 1: UM and the three of us would get the scripts

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Speaker 1: to a point where we were happy with them, and

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Speaker 1: only then did they go on to UM, PBS and

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Speaker 1: I t V and everything else. But they were very

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Speaker 1: accommodating you know. I mean they would I t V

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Speaker 1: would give us notes, but they didn't insist if we

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Speaker 1: had a reason for not implementing the note. They were great,

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Speaker 1: I mean, they were for me perfect to work with.

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed our collaboration with I t V. But

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Speaker 1: I mean so in that sense, you can see that

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Speaker 1: it isn't quite right to say you're sitting alone as

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Speaker 1: a sort of stylight on a column writing this series

378
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Speaker 1: and throwing it down, because it's it is a bit

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Speaker 1: of a group effort. Well, when we come back, we're

380
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Speaker 1: going to talk to you, Julian about your years as

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Speaker 1: an aspiring actor, the fact that you actually auditioned for

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Speaker 1: a role in Fantasy Island, which I find impossible to

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Speaker 1: understand why he didn't get that. We'll also talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your childhood and how you became fascinated

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Speaker 1: by class and this period in history, and also Brian's here,

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Speaker 1: so we're going to talk about politics as well, So

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Speaker 1: we'll do that right after this, and now back to

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Speaker 1: our conversation with the great Julian Fellows. You grew up

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Speaker 1: in a house near London in Chittingly, which I just

390
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Speaker 1: love saying, Oh, I love it. Even more now you

391
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 1: described your dad, who was a diplomat and later worked

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Speaker 1: at Shell Oil as this is such a delicious quote.

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Speaker 1: One of the last generation of men who lived in

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Speaker 1: a path of butter without knowing it. My mother put

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Speaker 1: him on a train on Monday mornings and drove up

396
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Speaker 1: to London in the afternoon. At the flat she'd be

397
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Speaker 1: waiting in a snappy little cocktail dress with a delicious

398
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Speaker 1: dinner and drink lovely. Really, do you really wish it

399
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: were still like that? I think the answers yes and

400
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: trying to say no. The truth is we've changed, and

401
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: and in the very political answer, and in the change

402
00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: you lose some aspects. I mean, all reform is double

403
00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:36,119
Speaker 1: bladed and some things go that a. Actually, if you're honest,

404
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: were rather nice. But we're different people now, well nice,

405
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 1: nicer for some than others, nicer for some than others,

406
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 1: and probably rather tiresome for the women in the cocktail dress.

407
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: But nevertheless they were very happy they worked out who

408
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: did what they were. You know, my mother died a

409
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: little too young. But you're saying your parents not all

410
00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,360
Speaker 1: women necessarily, but yes, not all women, And I think

411
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: women had a tough time and i'm, you know, a

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Speaker 1: feminist in that sense, and quite a convinced one, as

413
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: I believe my writing bears out. Um. But in every generation,

414
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 1: and in every civilization, and in every period of history,

415
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: people have to work out how to deal with it

416
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: and how to deal with the society in which they

417
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: are living. Some people are prepared to make war on

418
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Speaker 1: it for their whole life long, but most of us

419
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: are not. We need to find a way of being

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Speaker 1: in our own time that we can just about manage

421
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Speaker 1: and cope with. And I think that's what we're dealing

422
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: with there. My parents were children that they married in

423
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,440
Speaker 1: the thirties, and they went through the war, and they

424
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: went through the fifties, and essentially by the time the

425
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,159
Speaker 1: Swinging sixties arrived, they were settled as personalities. But it

426
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,119
Speaker 1: was because of their very different backgrounds, Julian, that you

427
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: became really interested in how class played out and how

428
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 1: random it was in terms of how you were treated

429
00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: in your station in life. Yes, I think that is

430
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,119
Speaker 1: true actually, although of course it took time for me

431
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: to articulate it and really become aware. My father came from,

432
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: you know, one of those families, I mean, very younger

433
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 1: son ish. I mean he was. His father was a

434
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 1: younger son who had gone to Canada and bought a

435
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 1: ranch and then died in the First World War. So

436
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,080
Speaker 1: that was all abandoned and he came back. But he

437
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: had fleets of aunts and great aunts and things who

438
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 1: sort of brought him up by committee. They all loathed

439
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: my grandmother, but because she was a sort of flapper

440
00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: and rather wild. But but nevertheless, she came from the

441
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: same background as they did. But my father fell in

442
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: love with my mother, who was very different her. I mean,

443
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: she wasn't, you know, selling violets in Covent Garden, but

444
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: her father was a civil servant. They lived in the suburbs.

445
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 1: She didn't really form part of that set up at all.

446
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: She hadn't been presented, she wasn't a debt all of that.

447
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: And they fell in love. She was a great beauty,

448
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 1: and my great aunts thought she had caught him, and

449
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 1: they never really changed, and they eventually tolerated her because

450
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: she had been delivered of four healthy sons and so

451
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: she had done her dynastic duty in that sense. They

452
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,239
Speaker 1: thought she was a gold digger a bit well, if

453
00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: only if they had been more gold. But they thought

454
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 1: she was, as they used to say, bettering herself by

455
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: the marriage, and my father was a simpleton and had

456
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 1: been ensnared. Was really their analysis. And all through my

457
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: childhood we we were not punished for this. We were

458
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,120
Speaker 1: four files of the sacred blood. So we would be

459
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 1: taken to tea with my great aunts and all this

460
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But you know, they never said, oh,

461
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,240
Speaker 1: do stay, you know, and mommy would say when should

462
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: I come for the five o'clock. There was never any

463
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 1: sense of why did you have to go? You know,

464
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: why don't you stay and have a cup of tea?

465
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. And when you're a child, you don't completely

466
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: know what's going on, but you know something's going on,

467
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: and you pick up a kind of vibe. And then gradually,

468
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: when I was I suppose about twelve thirteen, I started

469
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: to understand the game that was being played and the

470
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: randomness of it. And I remember one of them actually

471
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: making my mother cry once on the telephone, and I

472
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: suddenly saw the sort of cruelty of these random, as

473
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: you say, arbitrary decisions as to who you are. To

474
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,160
Speaker 1: what extent does the class system you described still exist

475
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 1: in the UK? I mean, of course it used to

476
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: be fashionable in the seventies to say it was completely

477
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: finished and over and nobody even knew it was there,

478
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: which was nonsense then and it's nonsense now. Um. All

479
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: I would say is I think we are more American

480
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 1: than we used to be, and you can make the

481
00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: journey in less time, and people who are very successful

482
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: and do well are entertained and received and make friends

483
00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: with you know, the old founder members and so on,

484
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: I think, much more easily. But it's still an advantage

485
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: to be born where you're going to be educated very,

486
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: very well and people are going to help you get

487
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: into whatever the industry or businesses that you want, and

488
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: your parents are going to ring up and say, Bobby,

489
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 1: I don't want to be a nuisance, but you know,

490
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: I've got my son coming in for an interview on Tuesday.

491
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: And I just think that's human nature really. I mean,

492
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:07,080
Speaker 1: in the end, America I think is as near socially

493
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: mobile as any modern country can hope to be. In

494
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: a capitalist system which involves inequity of income, I mean

495
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 1: that is part of the capitalist system. In this you're

496
00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: going to have a communist system and control everyone's income,

497
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: but that has byproducts which are not attractive to live with,

498
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 1: which is why the system collapsed in pretty well all

499
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: the countries where it was implemented. So you know, you're

500
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: you're choosing. I mean, I think Churchill said democracy is

501
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 1: the worst system in the world except for all the others,

502
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: and and I think a capitalist democracy is the worst

503
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 1: possible system except for everything else. But you know, even

504
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: in America there are entitled people, there are privileged people,

505
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: and huge income inequality and huge disparity. I think. And

506
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: since you're pairing the two countries, this is the perfect

507
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: segue for me to ask you about the Royal wedding,

508
00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: because here you have a biracial American marrying Prince Harry,

509
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:14,479
Speaker 1: And I'm curious what you made of the Royal wedding

510
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: and how the Royal family responded and the rest of Britain.

511
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 1: I don't really like to talk about the royal family. Well,

512
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 1: my wife's in the household and everything, and it's kind

513
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 1: of awkward for her. But I mean, I thought the

514
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 1: Royal wedding was a very happy day. I think the

515
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: Duchess of Sussex is a very interesting woman. She seems

516
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: to have had an interesting life. She's got views and

517
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: opinions that seem very much to be in tune with

518
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 1: the way the world is now, and that can only

519
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: be good. And the royal family has made a point

520
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: of showing how keen they are on and how pleased

521
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: they are. She's joined the team, and so I think

522
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: it's a holy positive happening, you know, for the whole institution.

523
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: Harass Ai. Well, let's go back to your life. You

524
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: went to Cambridge, then you studied at a drama academy

525
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: in London, and then you moved to l A, which

526
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: is sort of the last thing I'd expect somebody like

527
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: you to do. And you pursued an acting career and

528
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: also did some writing. Um, as Katie mentioned, you auditioned

529
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: to replace Tattoo on Fannessee Island. Um, you even played

530
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 1: some slapstick comedy roles. So how did you get into

531
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: all of that? Well, the reason I went to California

532
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: was really because at that time, UM, English theater scene

533
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: was very left wing, was very it was this season

534
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: of working class actors, wonderful, wonderful Albert Finny, Allen Bates,

535
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: Tom Courtney, a very very rich crop. But I would

536
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,920
Speaker 1: have been more right for the generation before the sort

537
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 1: of role like a dove in in the West End,

538
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: you know, with actresses in white fox coming down the

539
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: red carpet. And that wasn't the industry that I'd come into,

540
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 1: and I did find it very hard to break through

541
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: that prejudice. I mean, I was once lectured by a

542
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 1: casting director at the National saying, your kind, we feel

543
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 1: your kind of actor is happier in the West End.

544
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: And that was when the director had asked for me.

545
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: And I thought, well, you know, if the director asked

546
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: for me and I don't get the job, I'd better

547
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:42,960
Speaker 1: try something different, And so I went to California. In fact,

548
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: in the end, it was a Californian in the person

549
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: of Robert Altman who gave me my big writing break.

550
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: I don't think I would have got, you know, he

551
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: reached out of a different industry and gave me my break.

552
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: So I'm not sure it's completely changed, but it is

553
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: now looser than it used to. But anyway, that was

554
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: the reason I went to California and I had a

555
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: very good time. It was a moment in my life

556
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,479
Speaker 1: really when I was up for a change. My mother

557
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,959
Speaker 1: had just died after a long illness, after a long

558
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 1: time with cancer, and that was part of the reason

559
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 1: I left the country. I just thought, well, let's have

560
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: a new starts. So let's have a new beginning and

561
00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: do something different. And I was in Los Angeles for

562
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 1: about two and a half years, but the problem was

563
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: I kept getting work in England, so I was always

564
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 1: kind of flying back and flying back and flying back

565
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: and flying back. And in the end I thought, I've

566
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 1: got a better career in England. I just have to

567
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 1: get used to that. And I remember what decided me

568
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: as I went up for a film called Baby, the

569
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:54,520
Speaker 1: Secret of the Lost Legend. This was the only unsuccessful

570
00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: dinosaur film anyway. I tried to get an edition. I

571
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: read this part, you know, in some breakdown, and I thought, God,

572
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: this is dead right for me. And I tried to

573
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: get an audition in Los Angeles and they wouldn't see me.

574
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 1: And I then flew back to London for something else,

575
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 1: and my agent rang me and said, well, while you're here,

576
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: I've got an audition for a film called Baby, the

577
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: Secret of the Lost Legend. And I went up for

578
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 1: it and I got the part. And I asked the director,

579
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,840
Speaker 1: I said, but why wouldn't you see me in Los Angeles.

580
00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:30,240
Speaker 1: He said, oh, well, we felt all the really good

581
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 1: English actors we'd find in London. So I thought, well,

582
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,719
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm doing in l A. And

583
00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: that was when I came back. But I enjoyed l A.

584
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: And actually, when I got to Hollywood and I was

585
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: doing television and little parts in TV movies and things,

586
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 1: I don't know. This is what interests me because I'd

587
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: go to rehearsal for a play, I'd learned my lines,

588
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: i'd rehearse it, i'd play it. It would either run

589
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: or it wouldn't run, and that would be fine. Uh.

590
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 1: And I never got involved in the whole process. But

591
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: with film, I'd be sitting there and I think, why

592
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: is he taking that off the microphone? Why is he

593
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:11,640
Speaker 1: putting that furry sock on it? Why is the lighting

594
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 1: guy fiddling with the light now that it's a smaller,

595
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: tighter shot, you know? And I thought, this is where

596
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: I belong. Well, clearly you did, because when you were

597
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 1: fifty two, I guess you were asked to write the

598
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: screenplay for Gosford Park by Robert Altman. And I think

599
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: you wrote it in six weeks time, at least, that's

600
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: what I read or came back with a lot of pages,

601
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 1: maybe seventy five pages after six weeks, and you presented

602
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: them and Bob Balaban, who it was in the movie,

603
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,359
Speaker 1: who I know a little bit from New York, said

604
00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: it was just brilliant and here you were not super

605
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,399
Speaker 1: successful actor and you got this new lease on life.

606
00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: By then, I had a running part in a very

607
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:59,279
Speaker 1: successful series Sorry, which interlarded with the making of Gosford Park,

608
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: and I took the Oscar and I Want it onto

609
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: the set of Monica for Glenn. And if you look

610
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 1: very carefully, there is a scene where Molly is in

611
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: the library at Glenn Bogel and I come in to

612
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: see her and the lamp on the desk is a

613
00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: lampshade and a golden pair of legs coming out of

614
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: the bottom of it. Just to mark the fact. But

615
00:37:21,719 --> 00:37:25,439
Speaker 1: you were, you were a successful actor when you entered

616
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: into this. I amend my previous statement. Yes it was.

617
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: I mean it was extraordinary because I'd written some children's

618
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: series for the BBC, but I mean, you know, it

619
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 1: was in a different league and I've written this film,

620
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: and of course at the beginning I never thought it

621
00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: would get made because that all seemed unrealistic. You know.

622
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 1: It was like a sort of plot of Mickey Rooney

623
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: Judy Garland musical. You know, we can, hey, we can

624
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: put on the show and put a roof on the

625
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: school hall. And suddenly it started to become real. And

626
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:02,840
Speaker 1: Bob me to California to work on the script, and

627
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: then he flew here on his way to Venice for

628
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: the festival to do some more notes for for another draft,

629
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,399
Speaker 1: and the next thing we knew he'd moved here and

630
00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,840
Speaker 1: we were standing on the set, you know. So it

631
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: was a very extraordinary experience. And of course the cast

632
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: he assembled because it was clearly going to be the

633
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:26,720
Speaker 1: only Robert Ortman film, and if you were a British

634
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: actor and you wanted to be in a Robert Ortman film,

635
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: this was the picture. So practically everyone he asked to

636
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 1: do it said yes. And this incredible. It was like

637
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 1: you remember those films sort of MGM in nineteen forty

638
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 1: when they were all having lunch together and the camera

639
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,919
Speaker 1: would go down the table and everyone famous would be there.

640
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: That was what the set of Gosford Park was like.

641
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: It must have been such a thrill. And then of

642
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: course to win the Academy Award. You've also enjoyed taking

643
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: movies you've loved and turning them into place or theatrical productions.

644
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 1: Case and point. You did it with School of Rock.

645
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 1: You also did it with Mary Coffins. I understand you're

646
00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:09,760
Speaker 1: doing it with Wind and the Willows. And I met

647
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: over Instagram, my favorite social media platform, a lovely New

648
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,880
Speaker 1: Yorker now living in London named Jill Apple. Jill and

649
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 1: I started communicating direct messaging each other. I'll teach you

650
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: how to do all this, Julian. After our podcast and

651
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,400
Speaker 1: I invited Jill to come to this taping, so we

652
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: thought it would be fun for Jill to ask you

653
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: a question because she's a big fan of yours as well.

654
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,760
Speaker 1: So Jill, take it away. Thanks Katie, thanks for having me. Um.

655
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 1: I am excited to meet you and I'm a proud

656
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: musical theater nerd and Um, as Katie said, he brought

657
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: um Mary Poppins on School of Rock to the stage

658
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: from film, and I was wondering what the biggest challenges

659
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: of bringing something that's loved and already a solid thing

660
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: to the stage. Well, Mary Poppins with sn interesting challenge actually,

661
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: because it wasn't only a film, it was also a

662
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: series of books. To me as a child, it was

663
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: only the books. To my wife, she didn't even know

664
00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: there were books, And so I had to produce an

665
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 1: adaptation that was undisappointing to both groups. And and and really

666
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: what we were trying to do there, which is similar

667
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: to School of Rock, is to make it less of

668
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: a niche market and more of an all around so

669
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: that adults would enjoy it as well as children, in

670
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: that case, or with School of Rock, so that adults

671
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: who weren't particularly interested in rock music would have a

672
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: good evening, while you know, people who were crazy about

673
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,760
Speaker 1: rock would love the show because they'd love the film.

674
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: So in a sense, you're trying to broaden it really

675
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: and give it broader appeal. In Mary Poppins, I particularly

676
00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 1: used the mother Mrs Banks for that because in the

677
00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 1: film she had been a suffragette, and we didn't feel

678
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist was right now for she thinks women should

679
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 1: have votes. Isn't that a joke? Uh? It didn't seem

680
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: right for now, And in the book she hardly exists.

681
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 1: There's one drawing of her crying on the stairs, and

682
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,319
Speaker 1: that's it. So she's the one you've got freedom with.

683
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: And I made her into this woman who is essentially

684
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 1: being bullied by her husband. I mean in a loving way,

685
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: but bullied nevertheless. And during the show she finds the

686
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,279
Speaker 1: strength to kick back, and by the end of the

687
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,719
Speaker 1: show their marriage is an even one, which gives it

688
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: a grown up storyline to you know, go with the

689
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: things that are fun from the film and from the books.

690
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:40,959
Speaker 1: School of Rock was different because School of Rock wasn't

691
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: a book. School of Rock was an original script for

692
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:50,520
Speaker 1: a movie, a brilliant script and a marvelous film. But again,

693
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 1: the film was very much a Jack Black vehicle, and

694
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:59,920
Speaker 1: we needed to make it a broader thing and all.

695
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 1: So I wanted us to get to know the children

696
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 1: more than you do in the film, so that you

697
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 1: would know the children's parents, you would know the predicament

698
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: they're all battling against, and all the rest of it,

699
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: and we would see, you know, a hundred things you

700
00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 1: can do wrong when you're bringing up a child, you

701
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 1: know which any parent is familiar with and usually guilty of.

702
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 1: I know I am, And so that was a whole

703
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: new dimension. But it was again really to give it

704
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: broad appeal. So that any age, you know, really, I

705
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: think from you know, children can go to School of

706
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: Rock with their grandparents and there are enough jokes and

707
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: and enough things that will touch them that they will

708
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 1: have a good evening. My kids are five and nine

709
00:42:47,120 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: and we've now seen it I think five times in

710
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:55,400
Speaker 1: between New York and London. Now I know every word

711
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,239
Speaker 1: to every song. Really paid for your tie you didn't

712
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: even know really please and I love it too. I

713
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: think it's great. And the kids, I mean, one of

714
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,879
Speaker 1: the interesting thing was we were amazed by how many

715
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: children we found who could play these instruments. And I mean,

716
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: and I say we it was all obviously Andrew and Lawrence,

717
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: we're looking for them, but we thought we would have

718
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 1: to delay the opening in London because we wouldn't be

719
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,760
Speaker 1: able to find them. Actually, we could have had another

720
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:31,520
Speaker 1: three casts, you know, and we had to put the

721
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: audience clearly in the picture that the children were playing,

722
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 1: because we thought otherwise they're going to think though someone's

723
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: playing the real instrument and these don't have sound. That's

724
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 1: one of the most fun parts. I think. Yes, the

725
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 1: children are so talented and the top staff and I

726
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 1: mean incredible. That's why Andrew always says, you know they

727
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 1: are playing live. I love that well, Jill, thank you

728
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 1: very much for coming in. We're gonna I'm gonna have

729
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:02,719
Speaker 1: you Conne later. I'm worried she might take my job,

730
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: so I need to get her out of here. But

731
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 1: we're gonna have you come in later, Jill, to talk

732
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 1: about how much you love the podcast. Before we go

733
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: to modern times, I want to go back in time

734
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,800
Speaker 1: a bit and ask you how you feel about The Crown,

735
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:20,439
Speaker 1: because I am almost as obsessed with the Crown as

736
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: I was. Doubt Navvy and he thought you liked to

737
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: But The Crown is a wonderful piece of work and

738
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: a brilliant, brilliant writing from Peter Morgan. Um. No, it's

739
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 1: not a butt, I wouldn't say, but because I think

740
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: it was very very well done. It was beautifully acted,

741
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:50,399
Speaker 1: beautifully written. For me, I'm not completely comfortable with dramatizing

742
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: people who are still alive and still living their lives

743
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: and um, because I think it's possible to be unfair,

744
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: and in the second series I didn't think it was

745
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 1: fair to uh Prince Philip to the Duke of Edinburgh

746
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:11,440
Speaker 1: based on very little. Now I will be punished for that,

747
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: because you know, it's a great success and it deserves

748
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 1: to be. But I don't know. I think when people

749
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: are still alive, living their lives, doing a good job

750
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: and popular and loved, do they deserve it? And and

751
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: in that sense, I'm not sure they do. Do you

752
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 1: sense that or do you believe that a lot of

753
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: artistic license was taken in the storylines in terms of

754
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: how these individuals have been portrayed in the series. You're

755
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: getting me into a tricky area here. I I think

756
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:56,120
Speaker 1: that a lot of it was based on obviously very

757
00:45:56,160 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: good research, but some of it was not, and some

758
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: of it was extrapolation from a rumor or someone's rather

759
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: prejudiced account, and then it was presented as fact. And

760
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 1: I'm not sure that's just let's move to contin I'm

761
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 1: a big fan of Peter Mooregan. I repeat that. I

762
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 1: think he's the best writer on television at the moment,

763
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: and you know, and his deservedly successful as far as

764
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: I'm concerned, and certainly has a massive budget. Were you

765
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 1: jealous of that? I mean, I think probably you did,

766
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: to Julia, but not on that scale. That was I

767
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: think that was the most expensive television series ever made

768
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 1: and I like ten am I am I crazy to

769
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 1: say ten million dollars in episode something like that, I think,

770
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: and you can see it in almost every shot. But

771
00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: I feel that Downton looked as expensive, if I'm being defensive,

772
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: would have very good. I like to encourage that, let's

773
00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 1: move to contemporary times. You were for that quite vocally. Why.

774
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: I feel that the European Union was born of a

775
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: perfectly understandable need to avoid another World war, and that

776
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: was the sort of birth of it. But inevitably it

777
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 1: was a protectionist organization in the seventies and it hasn't

778
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: really been able to move forward because it is sort

779
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: of glued in the position it took then. And there

780
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,040
Speaker 1: are certain aspects. I mean, the fact that they haven't

781
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: been able to sign off their accounts for twenty five

782
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: years now or more. Um, the fact that you know

783
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 1: these people yunker unelected, that we can't do anything to

784
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: get rid of them. I mean, this is a system

785
00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: of government that belongs in the eighteenth century. This is

786
00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 1: Maria Teresa of Austria, not something in the twenty one century.

787
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,280
Speaker 1: The Third World has a terrible time trying to trade

788
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:03,439
Speaker 1: with Europe because of all the limits that have put

789
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,840
Speaker 1: on any outsider. Uh you know, I think people don't

790
00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:10,760
Speaker 1: know about a lot of this. The imposition of the euro,

791
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:16,280
Speaker 1: which really was fine for the northern economies Germany, France,

792
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: the ben a Lux countries and so on, but the

793
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,480
Speaker 1: whole of Southern Europe is crippled. I mean youth unemployment,

794
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 1: Greece teetering on the brink of being a failed state. Now,

795
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: if I felt it was capable of reform, then I

796
00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: might have a different view, because I liked originally the

797
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: idea of collaboration and common trade and all of that

798
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: stuff that seems so so much more reasonable to most people.

799
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:46,880
Speaker 1: I think, yes, and I think that was good, but

800
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,840
Speaker 1: that isn't really the situation that obtains now. It's great

801
00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 1: for bankers and they have their passports and they make

802
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: squillions of money, but you know that isn't really the

803
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: problem these days to ensure that bankers keep their rates up.

804
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 1: I've got nothing against them. Good luck to them, say I,

805
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 1: but I don't think it is worth hog tying a

806
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: country in order to protect the banking elite that you

807
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: thought that remaining was just too costly for Britain, I think,

808
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 1: why would you remain in something that is unsound and unsatisfactory.

809
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,680
Speaker 1: A big feature of the pro Brexit campaign was that

810
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 1: famous bus driving around the UK that said that the

811
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,719
Speaker 1: British people would save million pounds a week and that

812
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: money could be put into the NHS. Well, almost the

813
00:49:37,560 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: opposite is happening. That the British economy, according to many,

814
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: has lost almost that exact amount in g d p.

815
00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: So the trade restrictions could cost the UK billions. So

816
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: what's your response to that criticism. Well, first, it's not

817
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,760
Speaker 1: you've got very well criticized Brexit for what it promised

818
00:49:55,760 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 1: when it hasn't happened yet. Obviously, the money we pay

819
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 1: in the EU is not released until Brexit has taken place,

820
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: so that is, forgive me a spurious question. As for

821
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 1: the other things, Yes, the pound went down, which of

822
00:50:11,239 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: course was extremely good for exports and and you know

823
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,759
Speaker 1: less good for imports, and that's called the way of

824
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: the world. And also our unemployment is lower than it's

825
00:50:22,120 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 1: been since the nineties seventies, so a great deal of

826
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: the woe. You know, we're going to have to have

827
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,080
Speaker 1: an emergency a budget, We're going we're all going to

828
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 1: be busking in Leicester Square. You know within five minutes

829
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: of the referendum going against them, all of that was nonsense.

830
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: Now I'm not saying the Brexiteers didn't speak nonsense too.

831
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: As a general rule, both sides spoke nonsense, and it

832
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,799
Speaker 1: is extremely difficult to predict with any accuracy what is

833
00:50:47,840 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: going to come to pass. But you also have to remember,

834
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 1: to get any trade agreement while we are in the EU,

835
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:59,759
Speaker 1: we need not only the agreement of twenty seven other countries,

836
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 1: we need the agreement of all the regions of those

837
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: twenty seven other countries. So to arrange that the trade

838
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:11,240
Speaker 1: agreement with Canada took something like four years five years.

839
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: I mean, this is not a way to run an

840
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 1: economy in the twenty first century. It is anti trade.

841
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: So while I think there will obviously be disadvantages, and

842
00:51:23,760 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: I very much hope we can continue to collaborate on security,

843
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:33,920
Speaker 1: on health, on science research, all of these areas space,

844
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 1: I think there are many places where Europe and this

845
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 1: country should pull together. As I may say, they already

846
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:46,680
Speaker 1: collaborate with countries like Switzerland that are not in the EU.

847
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 1: So this isn't an unreachable dream. This is a situation

848
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 1: that already has been implemented and as much cooperation as

849
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,520
Speaker 1: we can do. I think that's great, and I think

850
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:03,399
Speaker 1: most of the British forward the time when this antagonism

851
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:06,880
Speaker 1: and kind of arm wrestling comes to an end and

852
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:10,160
Speaker 1: we can all just rub along together with our neighbors.

853
00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 1: I don't feel myself in the least anti European when

854
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,960
Speaker 1: it comes to the people of Europe. Far from it,

855
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: not at all. Julian, how much of Brexit was fueled

856
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: by anti immigration sentiment, because it was certainly portrayed in

857
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,320
Speaker 1: many quarters and interpreted by many in the United States

858
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 1: that this was a massive rejection of the influx of

859
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,640
Speaker 1: immigrants coming into the UK. Well, this is a more

860
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:42,719
Speaker 1: complicated issue than I think people grasped in America. I

861
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: mean the irony being that the refugees coming out of

862
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 1: Syria or wherever it is, of course unaffected by Brexit

863
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,840
Speaker 1: because they're not part of the EU. It's only the

864
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: European immigrants who were affected. And it is certainly true

865
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,839
Speaker 1: that our economy requires immigration. It has always required immigration,

866
00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: both in the short term for things like the agricultural

867
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,439
Speaker 1: economy and in the long term in the NHS, which

868
00:53:10,480 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: you were talking about. We're very dependent on immigrant labor

869
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 1: and doctors, nurses and so on National Health Service SA

870
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,279
Speaker 1: and and I think that's perfectly true. But where I

871
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: feel people are being a little dishonest is that if

872
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:31,680
Speaker 1: you are a member of the so called elite, and

873
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 1: all of us three are, we don't concern ourselves with

874
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: not getting into the school we want, or not being

875
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 1: able to find a doctor will take us on his list,

876
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 1: or not being able to get onto a list of

877
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 1: a dentist, or none of this bothers us, because we

878
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,160
Speaker 1: do what we like and we go where we want.

879
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:56,560
Speaker 1: But there are people who who's the local infrastructure simply

880
00:53:56,680 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 1: cannot cope. And what we have to do is not,

881
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: I think, try and restrict immigration to allude a Christa grieve,

882
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 1: as I don't think our economy would sustain that anyway,

883
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: and I don't think most people want it. But what

884
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 1: I think they want is a measure of control, that

885
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: is all. And at the moment we have no control,

886
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 1: and I don't really believe that wanting to be in

887
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: control is an unreasonable wish. Of course, it's always portrayed

888
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 1: by the remainers as this sort of savagely hostile position,

889
00:54:31,040 --> 00:54:35,880
Speaker 1: but America has control over its immigration and quite tough control.

890
00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:41,160
Speaker 1: Actually it doesn't, it doesn't. Well, it always did. I

891
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 1: mean speaking of someone who went to America a lot,

892
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:47,359
Speaker 1: you know, uh, and and so it sure it didn't

893
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,880
Speaker 1: mean they didn't welcome immigrants, because they did and they've America,

894
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: like Britain, has always had a very strong affinity with

895
00:54:56,000 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 1: their immigrant population. But it doesn't mean that you suddenly,

896
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: you know, Germany suddenly said no control and wolf in

897
00:55:05,000 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: and now Mrs Merkel is paying for it. So I

898
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: think it's a more complicated issue than people are prepared

899
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,280
Speaker 1: to admit. Really, there's a lot of anti immigration sentiment

900
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 1: in the US right now, espoused by President Trump. And

901
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,399
Speaker 1: I'm curious. I'm sure you stay up on current affairs

902
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:27,080
Speaker 1: across the pond, as they say, what do you think

903
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 1: about Donald Trump in the job he's doing as president,

904
00:55:30,120 --> 00:55:33,359
Speaker 1: and not only in terms of his policies, but in

905
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 1: terms of his personal style. No, that isn't a question

906
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: for me as far as I'm concerned. The American people

907
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: have elected him president, and so he's the President of

908
00:55:44,640 --> 00:55:47,680
Speaker 1: the United States. And that's as much as I engage

909
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: really well in your own country. Here in Britain, Prime Minister.

910
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:57,280
Speaker 1: Theresa May is a conservative like you. She's been consumed

911
00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: by Brexit since she took that job. How do you

912
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: think she's handling the issue? Oh? I think Theresa May,

913
00:56:05,239 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 1: who must have accepted the most poisoned chalice since ten

914
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:14,080
Speaker 1: sixty six, is doing amazingly well. And you know, they

915
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:18,640
Speaker 1: had this election campaign that didn't work out well and

916
00:56:18,719 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: so she was given a very difficult house to manage,

917
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: and I think she has done astonishingly given the fact

918
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: that one hand was tied behind her back from the

919
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:34,359
Speaker 1: day one. Uh, And so you know, she has my admiration.

920
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:38,920
Speaker 1: How she eventually manages to wrestle this whole thing to

921
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:42,319
Speaker 1: the floor remains to be seen. Since she would not

922
00:56:42,440 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 1: take the bait with my first question about President Trump

923
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: and shut me down pretty quickly. I'm going to just

924
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 1: try one more time, which should he be welcome to

925
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 1: the UK for a state visit? In your view, America

926
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 1: is our most senior ally and it is an alliance

927
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:05,160
Speaker 1: which I think is treasure by most of the population

928
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,959
Speaker 1: of these islands. We share a common language, we share

929
00:57:09,000 --> 00:57:11,799
Speaker 1: a common history, and even though you know we've had

930
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 1: our bumpy ride as in the beginning, as the musical,

931
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: Hamilton tells us. Nevertheless, it was pretty soon after American

932
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,240
Speaker 1: independence that the alliance was re established and we have

933
00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 1: never fallen out seriously since. And for that reason, I

934
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 1: think it is a good thing to entertain the head

935
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: of state that the Americans have chosen. But as someone

936
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,320
Speaker 1: who seems to me to be the epitome of decorum

937
00:57:38,400 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 1: and good manners, I have to ask you about the

938
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: way the president conducts himself. I just have to, because Julian,

939
00:57:46,440 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 1: you're so the antithesis of of the way he presents

940
00:57:52,280 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 1: and and I just you must be sort of amazed

941
00:57:56,600 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: at times by his his style, not sufficiently amazed to

942
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:07,320
Speaker 1: talk about it on the radio. He's very good at

943
00:58:07,440 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: ducking innovating. You forget he's a politician as well. All Right, well,

944
00:58:11,320 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: we're going to do a quick lightning round in conclusion, um,

945
00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: so you can just tell us briefly about these things.

946
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,960
Speaker 1: Dalton Abbey the movie, Well, I very much hope for

947
00:58:23,040 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 1: Downton Abbey the movie. I've written Downton Abbey the movie,

948
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 1: But obviously I'm not the guy who makes these decisions.

949
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 1: And you have to remember all the actors are stars.

950
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 1: Now we're trying to gather together a group of people

951
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: who have many commitments and offers, and that really is

952
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: like herding cats in some ways, thanks to doubt, Navvy

953
00:58:46,120 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: and thanks to you, which is great. Yeah, great, No,

954
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:51,439
Speaker 1: I mean I love that. I love the fact they've

955
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,240
Speaker 1: all taken wing and you look at Lily James or

956
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 1: Rose or whatever, and I just think, go girl, you know.

957
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: And I love that about Gypsy the movie starring Barbra

958
00:59:02,360 --> 00:59:06,840
Speaker 1: streisand I have to say her name correctly, Streisand is

959
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 1: that happening. I simply don't know, because I'm now off

960
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 1: that I wrote a version of the script and I

961
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 1: worked with ms streisand um for a while, which I

962
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: enjoyed very very much, and I liked her a lot.

963
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 1: She is a real character, she really is. I mean,

964
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: I feel very privileged working with Maggie and her and

965
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:33,720
Speaker 1: all these other luminaries, because I mean, she was the

966
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 1: shining star of my youth and she's still going strong.

967
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 1: So I hope it's happening. But that's all I can say.

968
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 1: Before we go. There's this iconic scene from season one

969
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:48,760
Speaker 1: that I just want to play and discuss very briefly.

970
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: Then I promise we'll let you get to the House

971
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,919
Speaker 1: of Lords. You'll soon get used to the way things

972
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,320
Speaker 1: are done here. If you mean that I'm accustomed to

973
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: a very different life from this, then that is true.

974
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 1: What will you do with your time? I've got a job,

975
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:07,240
Speaker 1: and rippen I said, I'll start tomorrow a job in

976
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: a partnership. You might have heard of it, Harlan Carthur.

977
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 1: They need someone who understands industrial law. You do know,

978
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,600
Speaker 1: I mean to involve you in the running of the estate.

979
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 1: I don't worry. There's plenty of hours in the day,

980
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:22,480
Speaker 1: and of course I'll have the weekend. We'll discuss this later.

981
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: We mustn't board the ladies. What is the weekend? That

982
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: may be the best line in the whole show. Oh

983
01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:36,480
Speaker 1: you are nice. Of course she did it so wonderfully

984
01:00:36,520 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 1: because some a lesser actor would have thought her this

985
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: is a great line and done a sort of handbag

986
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: on it. You know. Maggie throws it away that what

987
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 1: what is the weekend? Which was brilliant for me. It

988
01:00:57,360 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 1: came it's a quote from a great aunt who used it,

989
01:01:01,800 --> 01:01:05,040
Speaker 1: a great my great aunt, who used it quite deliberately

990
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:09,439
Speaker 1: to put someone down. And so it was because, as

991
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, in those days, the upper classes referred to

992
01:01:13,440 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: what we call the weekend as a Saturday to Monday,

993
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:19,800
Speaker 1: and even though it ran usually from Friday to Tuesday.

994
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 1: But never mind that um and weekend was seen as

995
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:28,120
Speaker 1: a working class phrase because it was comparatively late in

996
01:01:28,200 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 1: the century that they had time off. They had a

997
01:01:31,960 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 1: day off after eighteen sixty, a day off a week

998
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,880
Speaker 1: which the employers used for maintenance, so they could live

999
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,960
Speaker 1: with it. But giving them two days off was much

1000
01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: later than that, and it was called the weekend, but

1001
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 1: it was seen as arrest from labor, and so it

1002
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:54,280
Speaker 1: wasn't a term. It crept in after, you know, into

1003
01:01:54,280 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: the sort of thirties and by the end of the

1004
01:01:57,080 --> 01:02:01,200
Speaker 1: Second World War standard, but at that point she would

1005
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 1: have found it not unknown. She knew exactly what he meant,

1006
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:09,120
Speaker 1: but distasteful to think she was sitting in the Downton

1007
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 1: dining room with someone who used the word we can't.

1008
01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 1: Julian Fellows, thank you so much. I could talk to

1009
01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 1: you all day, but unfortunately, Alasa lack, we can't, and

1010
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: you have places to go and people to see. But

1011
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 1: thank you so much for the pleasure. I've enjoyed it.

1012
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 1: Thank you. I don't know about you, Brian, But that

1013
01:02:30,920 --> 01:02:34,439
Speaker 1: was such a thrill for me, partially because I love

1014
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:39,160
Speaker 1: just listening to someone who has such a facility with

1015
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 1: the English language. I mean, I didn't understand half of

1016
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: what he said, but I really like I'm kidding, but

1017
01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:49,480
Speaker 1: I really loved listening to him because he's so incredibly eloquent.

1018
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:53,400
Speaker 1: He is. He's one of the most articulate, rye intelligent

1019
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: people I've ever had the privilege of sitting in a

1020
01:02:55,640 --> 01:02:57,360
Speaker 1: room with. I think we have a man crush in

1021
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 1: the making. Oh we already had a man crush, I

1022
01:03:00,160 --> 01:03:03,280
Speaker 1: mean just with the Savol Rose suits. But I was

1023
01:03:03,280 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 1: going to say I was also struck by how pointed

1024
01:03:06,840 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: he is about politics, um, which we you know, just discussed,

1025
01:03:10,320 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: and he takes a number of controversial positions, and you know,

1026
01:03:13,440 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 1: I think it's great when people in the arts actually

1027
01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 1: stand up and be counted. But he's sure as heck

1028
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: would not bite when it came to Donald Trump, which

1029
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: I thought was interesting, and you know, you kind of

1030
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: have to respect the guy for that. He clearly had

1031
01:03:26,320 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 1: parameters and he was going to stick to him. And

1032
01:03:28,680 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 1: he also stuck to his guns mostly when talking about

1033
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:34,040
Speaker 1: the Queen and the Royal family because his wife is

1034
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:37,240
Speaker 1: actually a lady in waiting to a senior and somewhat

1035
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 1: controversial member of the royal family, Princess Michael of Kent.

1036
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:45,160
Speaker 1: You are such an anglophile and guilt che you really are.

1037
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:47,520
Speaker 1: But thank you, thank you, Thank you to the BBC

1038
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:50,680
Speaker 1: for inviting us to London for our first pod trip

1039
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,320
Speaker 1: across the Pond. Try saying that three times fast. And

1040
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:57,240
Speaker 1: thanks also as usual to our team at Stitcher, Gianna

1041
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:02,120
Speaker 1: Palmer who's with us? Nora Richie who sat please not sorry? No?

1042
01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:04,680
Speaker 1: And Jared O'Connell I don't know, I feel okay about

1043
01:04:04,680 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 1: you're not being with us. No, I'm I'm kidding. We missed, Jared.

1044
01:04:07,920 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 1: And also to our terrific engineer here Leave from Silk

1045
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: Sound for recording us today. I of course want to

1046
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,360
Speaker 1: thank my Katie Currect Media power posse Alison Bresnick, Bethams

1047
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 1: and Emily Beena. Katie and I are the executive producers

1048
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 1: on this show and Mark Phillips is the melodic mind

1049
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 1: behind our theme music. And remember we love hearing from you,

1050
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 1: so please drop us a line. I think, as they

1051
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: say here at comments at correct podcast dot com or

1052
01:04:32,480 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 1: ring us at two to four, four, six, three seven.

1053
01:04:36,480 --> 01:04:40,440
Speaker 1: We'll take comments, praise, guest ideas, constructive criticism, all of

1054
01:04:40,440 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 1: it just trolls. Stay away if you can. The line

1055
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:47,560
Speaker 1: and our hearts are open. Have a very lovely Independence

1056
01:04:47,640 --> 01:04:50,400
Speaker 1: Day week, and everyone into our British listeners. Thank you.

1057
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:52,959
Speaker 1: We're no longer a part of you, but we still

1058
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:58,440
Speaker 1: love you. Thank you for listening to everyone. It's so exciting.

1059
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 1: We have a special guest here, Jill Apple. Jill, you

1060
01:05:00,800 --> 01:05:03,000
Speaker 1: reached out to me on Instagram that you're a fan

1061
01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 1: of the podcast. I said, come and watch the taping,

1062
01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 1: so we're gonna be very self serving here, Jill. Why

1063
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,480
Speaker 1: do you enjoy our podcast so wonderful? We are? I

1064
01:05:11,560 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: do love it. I just recently moved from New York

1065
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 1: to London, and I feel like it's a little bit

1066
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Speaker 1: of a slice of home. Plus it's informative. And I

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Speaker 1: remember the first week I was here, I was riding

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Speaker 1: on the double decker and I was listening to the

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01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg podcast in my pot my whatever you call

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Speaker 1: them ere pods and just sobbing because it was very

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01:05:30,320 --> 01:05:34,400
Speaker 1: moving and I was hooked and I immediately downloaded all

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Speaker 1: the others and now I listened to them. I loved

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01:05:36,000 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: the Danny Meyer one and the Frank Brooney one, and

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Speaker 1: especially like the Amy Schumer one. She's hilarious. Oh well,

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Speaker 1: thank you really, umuch, I'm so glad you reached out.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for coming, thank you for having and

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Speaker 1: good luck in London, and thanks and thanks for listening