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Speaker 1: Team sports. It's the value of working with others. You

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Speaker 1: know the sports. Team sports, especially as a it's a

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Speaker 1: universal language. You can play the game with people and

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Speaker 1: not speak the same language, diverse background, working together, being

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Speaker 1: a leader, being a teammate, being a follower. This is

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Speaker 1: the Reformed Sports Project, a podcast about restoring healthy balance

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Speaker 1: and perspective in all areas of sports through education and advocacy. Hi,

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Speaker 1: this is Nick Monacore from the Reform Sports Project podcast. Today,

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Kim English, former NBA player and current

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Speaker 1: head men's basketball coach at George Mason University. In All

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Speaker 1: Big Twelve selection as a player at the University of Missouri,

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Speaker 1: Kim went on to play basketball professionally for the Detroit

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Speaker 1: Pistons and Chicago Bulls before completing his career within the

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Speaker 1: international ranks. Kim and I discussed the value of being

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Speaker 1: honest with athletes during the recruiting process, how he draws

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Speaker 1: on his NBA experience to help him prepare his player

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Speaker 1: for big moments, in the importance of developing a deep

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Speaker 1: love for the game. Let's go. I got another awesome

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Speaker 1: guest dude to stud. I was able to connect with

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Speaker 1: him through Manya pupione head women's soccer coach shout out

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Speaker 1: George Mason University. She's one of his colleagues. But I

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Speaker 1: saw one of his tweets out there. Man, it got

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Speaker 1: me fired up and I needed to connect with my man.

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Speaker 1: Head men's basketball coach at George Mason University and former

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Speaker 1: NBA and professional basketball player Kim English. Coach English, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for hopping on, Coach. Thanks well, I appreciate you, man.

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Speaker 1: And and here's where I want to start. Man, I

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Speaker 1: saw that tweet and it kind of got my attention,

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Speaker 1: got a whole team's attention. And you know what prompted

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Speaker 1: you to tweet, You know about the need for youth

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Speaker 1: sports to return to love in passion for the game. UM.

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Speaker 1: One of our former players here at George Mason's name

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Speaker 1: was Will Thomas. He was UM a member of our

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Speaker 1: final four team. He grew up in Baltimore as I did.

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Speaker 1: And I remember just looking at Will Thomas when I

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Speaker 1: was a freshman at high school like he was an

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Speaker 1: absolute god. Like I thought this high school basketball player

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Speaker 1: was a god. A high school basketball player that decided

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Speaker 1: to go play at George Mason. Was another player named

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Speaker 1: Jamal Smith, that went to Tewson Catholic High School and

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Speaker 1: I thought he was a god. He went to Wagner College,

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Speaker 1: and I just remember the amount of respect I had

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Speaker 1: for an assistant coach from Wagner named Jim Meal, every

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Speaker 1: time he walked in the gym at Tuson Catholic to

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Speaker 1: see Jamal Smith. Um the coaches that recruited Will Thomas,

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Speaker 1: and I remember the way I felt about those guys

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Speaker 1: and their college coaches, and it's kind of lost a

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Speaker 1: little bit. There's, uh, there's an infatuation with young players

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Speaker 1: now to like just go to the biggest football school

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Speaker 1: they can possibly go to, and I just feel like

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Speaker 1: that one is misplaced. Um got me thinking about the

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Speaker 1: way kids train now, and it's like, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: seventh and eighth graders mimicking Steph Curry and Kevin Durant

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Speaker 1: and I'm like, man, that's a whole lot of steps

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Speaker 1: missed before you get there. Like now, what about varsity

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Speaker 1: high school basketball? What about college basketball? And then let's

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Speaker 1: talk an NBA player, And I just remember, you know,

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Speaker 1: professional basketball was always a dream, but there was never

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Speaker 1: an aim of mine as I was young and in sport,

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Speaker 1: it was just playing outside right, playing to win that day,

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Speaker 1: looking excited, being excited to play the next day, having

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Speaker 1: the utmost respect for really good high school players that

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Speaker 1: went on to play in college, regardless of the level,

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Speaker 1: like Loyola Greyhounds, Like maybe my favorite college basketball team,

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Patsos Um, those teams with some really good players,

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Speaker 1: Andre Collin, Gerald Brown, Jamal Barney, Like, it's one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite college basketball memories. Um. And I just think

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Speaker 1: that there's some great value to that. And I went

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Speaker 1: on to play basketball in the Big twelve and play

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Speaker 1: in multiple cy Double A tournaments and get drafted to

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Speaker 1: the NBA. But when I was a young player, you know,

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Speaker 1: respect for the game and love of the game superseded

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Speaker 1: any um superficial destination for my basketball career. I love it.

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Speaker 1: And and in that in that Twitter thread, you mentioned

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Speaker 1: the importance of chasing, you know, an opportunity to not

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Speaker 1: only play and improve, but also to be love and needed.

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Speaker 1: How important is it for students to attend the school

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Speaker 1: where they feel valued and respected as a person, you know,

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Speaker 1: not just an athlete. You know. Uh yeah, I think

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Speaker 1: it's the most important thing. And it takes a ton

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Speaker 1: of maturity to uh, look at it this way. But

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Speaker 1: I I say this, if you aren't a one and

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Speaker 1: done talent, five star, freak of nature phenom, and you

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Speaker 1: make a decision on anything outside of your ability to develop,

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Speaker 1: grow and play, you know, and devalue your cloud chasing

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Speaker 1: like you're doing it for status, right, Like you're doing

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Speaker 1: it because the facilities in the A C C are

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Speaker 1: Or like if you have a chance to be a

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Speaker 1: Mountain West impact guy like you know, un l V

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Speaker 1: or Colorado State or Wyoming wants you to come in

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Speaker 1: and be the guy, Like you can be the guy,

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Speaker 1: like these coaches want to use you. But mid level

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Speaker 1: Pack twelve program is you know, lukewarm interests recruiting you.

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Speaker 1: I just feel like going to the Mountain West in

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Speaker 1: that situation is a better basketball decision. Well, you're talking

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Speaker 1: to someone who, again, I was never a perennial, you know,

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Speaker 1: power five type guy, especially coming out of high school.

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Speaker 1: That's for daringure. But I mean I went to a

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Speaker 1: Division three school. We won the national title um in baseball,

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Speaker 1: and and but that was where I knew I can

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Speaker 1: go and compete at the highest level. But also be

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Speaker 1: an impact player. So I agree with you there, man,

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Speaker 1: you only get four years. Not everyone goes onto the show.

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Speaker 1: You know, major League Baseball gets drafted or NBA professional

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Speaker 1: ranks at any level, So you only get four years.

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Speaker 1: You know, why sit on the bench. You know what

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Speaker 1: I mean? I get it, But that cloud chasing thing

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Speaker 1: is real at this level, and I guess, how do

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Speaker 1: you create that culture of appreciation and camaraderie and your

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Speaker 1: program that may separate that may be able to take

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Speaker 1: that kid like, hey, I may be able to go

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Speaker 1: and maybe be an impact guy after two years out

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Speaker 1: of a CEC program, but I want to go place

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Speaker 1: for Coach English because I know that not only could

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Speaker 1: be an impact guy, but I'm gonna be a part

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Speaker 1: of something greater than myself. And Coach English lets me

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Speaker 1: all that. Well. I try to be organic, genuine. Um.

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Speaker 1: I've a really hard time. UM, excuse my language, but

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Speaker 1: I don't kiss kids ask like I don't do it.

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Speaker 1: Like I can't do it. I can't. I can't recruit

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Speaker 1: a kid that doesn't want to be at George Mason

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Speaker 1: and play in the Atlantic twon and received the type

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Speaker 1: of coaching and player development UM and love that he's

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Speaker 1: gonna get here. Um, because we have some really really

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Speaker 1: really good players here, like Joshua Durrow could play any

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Speaker 1: place in America. V J. Bailey has played on multiple

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Speaker 1: Sweet six team teams. He's played in the SEC. DeVante

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Speaker 1: Games has played in the SEC. Deshaun Schwartz was a

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Speaker 1: thousand points score in the Pact twelve and you know,

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Speaker 1: scored twenty five points when Georgetown in the n C

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Speaker 1: Double A Tournament. Um, Gennica O Giacko just transferred here

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Speaker 1: from Virginia Tech. Uh, Justin Fernandez chose George Mason over

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Speaker 1: a slew of SEC and a c C offers. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: these guys are actually on our team and they're proven. Like,

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Speaker 1: why am I wasting my time with someone that is not, like,

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Speaker 1: really really really excited to be here? Um? So you

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Speaker 1: just created through organic daily relationships and systems and practices,

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Speaker 1: and then if they get to your campus, they see

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Speaker 1: it and if they don't want it, that's fine, it

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Speaker 1: goes somewhere else and great supporting. And you gotta be

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Speaker 1: real too, Like there's a local player here from d

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Speaker 1: c UM that we were recruiting, and you know we

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Speaker 1: offered him but he's an incredible student. And his recruitment,

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Speaker 1: you know, after this this last summer, you know, he

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Speaker 1: started getting He's gotten Harvard, he's gotten Princeton, he's gotten

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Speaker 1: Yale and that's next level academics, and he's and he's

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Speaker 1: gotten Penn And his mom is calling me and telling

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Speaker 1: me how much he loves us, how much he loves Mason,

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Speaker 1: and how much he wants to play at Mason. And

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Speaker 1: I was like, Mom, you need to go to those

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Speaker 1: other places, like you need to go to those other places.

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Speaker 1: You know, if it were my son, I would tell

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Speaker 1: him to go to those other places because you're just

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Speaker 1: getting experience that is, you know, you can't even begin

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Speaker 1: to put a value on it. Honestly, it is invaluable

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Speaker 1: those opportunities. Um, So you gotta be real. You gotta

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Speaker 1: be real, And I think being real through this process

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Speaker 1: and being honest through this process is the best way

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Speaker 1: to be. I firmly believe that the current youth sports ecosystem,

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Speaker 1: I always say, is formulated around recruiting, exposure, getting and

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Speaker 1: as early as possible. Um It's what I see in

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Speaker 1: the baseball circuits. When I talked to coaches in all

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Speaker 1: different sports it all seems to be, you know, built

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Speaker 1: around showcasing and getting eyes, which is there's a great

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Speaker 1: value in that, but there's also a flip side of that.

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Speaker 1: So I guess what I want to ask is what's

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Speaker 1: the most common misconception about the college recruiting process? They

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Speaker 1: from your standpoint, the most common misconception is that, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't know. I would like to

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Speaker 1: say that we move a little differently here, like maybe

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Speaker 1: truly offer for recruit but well, here here's a misconception. Um,

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Speaker 1: an offer does not mean recruitment. There's a misconception. What

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Speaker 1: do you mean by that? Offers mean less and less

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Speaker 1: by the year. Like players, young players are so thirsty

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Speaker 1: four offers. They love offers, They want offers. Can I

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Speaker 1: have an offer? Won an offer? So over the year

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Speaker 1: the value of an offer has deluded I remember a

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Speaker 1: few years ago in the SEC program offered I think

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Speaker 1: like a hundred kids on the first day they could

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Speaker 1: offer them. Like that doesn't school up in the Northeast

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Speaker 1: that has offered like every kid ever? You know, so

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Speaker 1: coaches have adapted to like if players weren't and here

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Speaker 1: you coaches and everyone's thirsty for an offer, like, all right, here,

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Speaker 1: take an offer, but it doesn't signal recruitment, you know.

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Speaker 1: Those offers all the time aren't a commendable offer, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I think the value of an offer is has

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Speaker 1: absolutely been saluted um over the years, and it's just

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Speaker 1: common sense. I mean, no one's gonna like take back

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Speaker 1: an offer, you know. So it's it's uh, it's it's

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Speaker 1: it offers not real and offers not always real. I

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Speaker 1: should said that. Do you think it's because like the

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Speaker 1: relationship piece has been taken out of it because everything's

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Speaker 1: sped up. Yeah? Absolutely, it used to mean something. It

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Speaker 1: used to like you used to you used to call

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Speaker 1: a kid and tell them you really like this game,

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Speaker 1: and what are you doing later? And you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna hop on a phone call with your mom tomorrow

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Speaker 1: and your dad the next day, and your high school

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Speaker 1: coach and he you coach, and that will take about

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Speaker 1: two weeks, and then I'm really excited to come see

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Speaker 1: you play. And why do you play? Man? You play

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Speaker 1: really well and I get to know you, and then

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Speaker 1: I offer you a scholarship, you know, because I just

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Speaker 1: feel like it's disingenuous now. It's like if you don't

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Speaker 1: offer the first conversation. You don't have a chance. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, but it's like if I offer you a scholarship,

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Speaker 1: that means I want you to commit, Like how can

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Speaker 1: I want you to commit to a place you've never seen?

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Speaker 1: You know? But I mean we've had to that, We've

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Speaker 1: had to adjust, We've had to evaluate quicker and go

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Speaker 1: all in quicker, and we have we we have adjusted

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Speaker 1: and it is what it is. Well, how was your

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Speaker 1: you know, how did your playing experience at the highest

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Speaker 1: level right you played in the NBA, you played overseas professionally,

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Speaker 1: how was that shaped your coaching philosophy and how you

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Speaker 1: do things? Uh? It has. It has by giving me

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Speaker 1: a lot of people coaches to pull from coaches and

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Speaker 1: the NBA coaches a huh me um me deciding to

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Speaker 1: carry on systems or practices that they did, or vice versa. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's it's given me an opportunity to, you know, know

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Speaker 1: exactly what it takes to get there, know what it's

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Speaker 1: like when you are there, um, and try to prepare

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Speaker 1: our guys to be ready when they make when we return.

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Speaker 1: Coach English and I discussed the value of youth sports

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Speaker 1: and why he believes falling in love with the game

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Speaker 1: is critical for long term success. Welcome back where we

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Speaker 1: left off. Kim and I were about to talk about

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Speaker 1: the lessons that can be learned from playing both individual

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Speaker 1: sports and team sports. What lessons have you taken away

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Speaker 1: from the highs and lows of your first season as

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Speaker 1: a head coach of George Mason And can you speak

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Speaker 1: alike the importance of learning from setbacks, whether that be

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Speaker 1: as an individual or collectively as a team. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think first just a team part. You know, we

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Speaker 1: lost seven games by one shot, um one two or

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Speaker 1: three points, seven losses of our six team And obviously

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Speaker 1: I learned a ton you know, decisions. I can look

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Speaker 1: back and think if I would have done this, or

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Speaker 1: I should have done this, or this line up here,

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Speaker 1: this sub here or whatever. But I think the value

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Speaker 1: add of the group going through those things together, and

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Speaker 1: we know it's something that's very rare now in college

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Speaker 1: basketball is to get old together. Our team has gotten

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Speaker 1: older together, you know. VJ. Bailey and Devanta Games, they

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Speaker 1: played together at Tennessee, Devon Cooper, Um, josh A Durrow,

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Speaker 1: Devontae Games, Ronald poul Like, Billick Henry play Jones. All

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Speaker 1: these guys played with each other, They've grown with each other,

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Speaker 1: and you know, winning as a skill. And I know

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Speaker 1: that they'll look back to my teams in college, UM

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Speaker 1: and it's just a feeling to look at the end

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Speaker 1: of the game. You just know how to close it.

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Speaker 1: You know how to get out of that game with

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Speaker 1: the w UM and I think that there was some

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Speaker 1: value learned and gained in that this past season. So

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Speaker 1: you coached at all different levels, right from D one

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Speaker 1: athletes to young kids attending camps. What's your favorite part

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Speaker 1: about coaching? Like, what's your why? Teaching? You know, teaching

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Speaker 1: about the game and teaching lessons that are gonna carry

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Speaker 1: you well be on your playing career. You know, without

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Speaker 1: a doubt, hands down, not even a question. That's the

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Speaker 1: That's the thing I mean this morning that camp, it

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Speaker 1: was literally who invented the game of basketball? It was

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Speaker 1: whereas he from? It was where it did he invent

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Speaker 1: the game? You know? It was what was the first

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Speaker 1: basket made out of it? It's it's about teaching the game, um,

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Speaker 1: every aspect of the game, and fallen in love with

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Speaker 1: the game. I think if you fall in love with it,

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Speaker 1: the places it can take you on miraculous. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've I've never ever known or discussed my salary before

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Speaker 1: taking a job and coaching. And that's two thousand and fifteen,

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Speaker 1: at Tulsa to Colorado to Tennessee to now. Um, you

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Speaker 1: know it's it's I've never worked today in my life.

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Speaker 1: It's it's always been been about the love. So as

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Speaker 1: a parent, you know, what changes do you hope to

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Speaker 1: see in youth sports? You know, like what lessons do

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Speaker 1: you hope your kids take away from playing sports? You know,

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Speaker 1: I mean when you look at the culture today, like

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Speaker 1: we talked about, it's about getting recruited, it's about all

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Speaker 1: these things. But if you take the coach that had

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Speaker 1: off and just look at it from a parent standpoint,

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Speaker 1: what do you like to see? What do you hope

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Speaker 1: your kids get out of the youth sports experience? And uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, your kids take away from playing athletics, they

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Speaker 1: take out fun and love and lessons fun. You know

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Speaker 1: what else would you play a sport at the beginning?

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Speaker 1: Even now? It's fun and it should be fun. Fun

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Speaker 1: right now, you should smile, you should laugh. Um, you know,

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Speaker 1: the love of the game and lessons at her parents.

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Speaker 1: My only advice to parents whenever they asked me about

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Speaker 1: getting recruited or whatever, how do I do this? I

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Speaker 1: offered two things. I say, when you get in a

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Speaker 1: car with your son and daughter after the game, I say,

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Speaker 1: tell them you love to watch them play, and ask

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Speaker 1: them if they want to hear what you think. That's

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Speaker 1: that's my message, that's my lesson. Um. So, yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have six kids, like I told you, and it's

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Speaker 1: hard to bite your tongue sometimes. But I think asking

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Speaker 1: the because you know we're the parents, they're the child.

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Speaker 1: But why is it important, I guess to make sure

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Speaker 1: their voice is heard? Right, they say, give a voice

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Speaker 1: to the voiceless. Right. Why do you think it's so

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Speaker 1: important to ask your kid permission to Hey, do you

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Speaker 1: want to know my feedback? Because sometimes they don't want

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Speaker 1: to hear it. Take your ego out of it. You know.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes I didn't want to hear it growing up as

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Speaker 1: a like, I didn't want to hear it, you know,

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Speaker 1: Um I was, I was, I was a better athlete,

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Speaker 1: and both my parents like, I don't want to hear

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Speaker 1: your advice right now. I just want to ride home.

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Speaker 1: You know, maybe I'm processed in the game in my

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Speaker 1: mind right now now. If I say yes, then yes,

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Speaker 1: give me what you want to hear. But if I

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Speaker 1: say no, keep it to yourself. I think that's perfectly fine. Im.

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Speaker 1: My kids aren't in sports now, but they do play

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Speaker 1: outside all the time, and I do it all the time.

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Speaker 1: I show so much joy when they're kicking a soccer

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Speaker 1: ball or running or they are dribbling a basketball. And

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Speaker 1: I asked him, do you want me to show you?

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Speaker 1: You know, I used to love watching Steph Curry's dad

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Speaker 1: at his college games, just sitting there shim out and

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Speaker 1: watching this some play. You know, not stress, not coaching.

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Speaker 1: Let to let the coaches coach, and you enjoy your

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Speaker 1: kid in the sport or don't go to the game.

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Speaker 1: I love that, man. And here's where I want to

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Speaker 1: end with you is And I'm gonna read this whole

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Speaker 1: thing here because I want to make sure I get

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Speaker 1: it all in there to you, what do you think

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Speaker 1: is the greatest value of youth sports? Because many seem

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Speaker 1: to view youth sports as a means to one end.

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Speaker 1: But obviously it sounds like you hope people will start

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Speaker 1: to appreciate to play at any and all levels. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, what's the true value in your sports from

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Speaker 1: your perspective today, the value of youth sports is fun,

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Speaker 1: exercise and activity, which is obviously great. Um. You know,

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Speaker 1: all sports there's lessons to be learned. And individual sports

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Speaker 1: it's about managing your emotions and temper you know, I

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Speaker 1: kind of laugh at the country club sports like golf

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Speaker 1: and tennis when they have tem potentiums and stuff. Um.

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Speaker 1: You know, the team sports, it's the value of working

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Speaker 1: with others. You know, sports, team sports, especially as a

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Speaker 1: it's a universal language. You can play the game with

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Speaker 1: people and not speak the same language, diverse backgrounds, working together,

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Speaker 1: you know, being a leader, being a teammate, being a follower. Um.

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Speaker 1: And if that special person does arise, then it can

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Speaker 1: be about furthering. Then it can be about helping them

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Speaker 1: go and explore and see how far they can take

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Speaker 1: it to the game. But every kid editing and you

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Speaker 1: event thinking they're gonna become a college thought or an

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Speaker 1: NBA player, it's ridiculous to me. Um. Then maybe that mentality,

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Speaker 1: in that mindset does drive it's success in basketball in America.

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Speaker 1: Rather because it's so competitive, kids are learning to compete

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Speaker 1: before they're learning to dribble, their learning to you know,

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Speaker 1: fight on the court, like fight the right way on

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Speaker 1: the court, battle on the court before they're learning to

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Speaker 1: give and go. UM. So I think there is a

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Speaker 1: value add to that in American basketball. UM. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I just know that you know, repetition, um loves, passion, excitement,

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Speaker 1: skill is the true way to have had great success.

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Speaker 1: The book Talent Code by Daniel Coils must read. I

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Speaker 1: think really interested in your thoughts on this. I still

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Speaker 1: believe if you good enough, people will find you. But

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Speaker 1: you talked about the misconceptions earlier in youth sports. There's

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Speaker 1: big people that believe if you're not on the travel circuit,

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Speaker 1: if you're not in the au clubs or whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: there's no way to get seen. You know, I'm a

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Speaker 1: big advocate of Hey, if you're a great athlete and

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Speaker 1: you play multiple sports, and your number one sports basketball,

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Speaker 1: but you love playing you know, base, whatever else it is,

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Speaker 1: you're still gonna get seen if you're good enough. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is there is that no longer a thing? Do you

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Speaker 1: have to go year round in order to get the

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Speaker 1: looks that you want at the highest level? Or is

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Speaker 1: I mean if you're goodness, cream still rise to the top.

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Speaker 1: Uh it does. Um. I do think if you're not playing,

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Speaker 1: if you get to a certain age and you're not

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Speaker 1: playing your sport year round, um, I do think you

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Speaker 1: can be surpassed. Um. But I love diversity. Uh. I

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Speaker 1: love diversifying your sports, you know, playing, I love cross training,

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Speaker 1: you know, playing up. So I'm gonna take couple of

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Speaker 1: our guys are in the national guys that didn't go

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Speaker 1: home for this break. I'm gonna go play tennis or

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Speaker 1: something on Friday. You know. It's uh, yes, if you're

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Speaker 1: good enough, people will find you. You know for sure.

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Speaker 1: You know. But I don't see anything wrong with kids

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Speaker 1: wanting to play on really good a U sir kids

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Speaker 1: and get to experience thames like Nike, Peace Jan and

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Speaker 1: stuff like that. Um. So yes, it's a little bit

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Speaker 1: of both. I think every situation is different. I agree

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Speaker 1: with you, Coach english Man, this has been awesome. I

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Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough for your time being able to

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Speaker 1: come on and share your heart and share so much

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Speaker 1: important information. George Mason University men's basketball coach, Kim English,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for hopping on man. Thank you

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. That's Kim English, head men's basketball coach at

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Speaker 1: George Mason University. Thanks for listening to the Reform Sports

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Speaker 1: Project podcast. I'm Nick Bonicourt and our goal is to

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Speaker 1: restore a healthy balance and perspective in all areas of

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Speaker 1: sports through education and advocacy. For updates, please follow us

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Speaker 1: on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, or check out our website

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Speaker 1: by searching for the Reform Sports Project