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Speaker 1: So joining me now. As everybody knows, I enjoyed putting

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Speaker 1: on people that are running for office. This is no

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Speaker 1: just ordinary candidate. Somebody I've known a long time, George Conway.

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Speaker 1: I first got to know him as a conservative attorney,

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Speaker 1: sort of a political attorney is probably the best way

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Speaker 1: to do it, involved in sort of legal debates from

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Speaker 1: a conservative side. His prominence rose with he and his

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Speaker 1: former wife Kelly and Conway, And of course if you've

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Speaker 1: followed if you've not lived in a coma or stuck

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Speaker 1: your head in the sand, you know very well about

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Speaker 1: George's journey away from the conservative movement and the Republican Party.

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Speaker 1: And the journey has moved all the way into registering

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Speaker 1: as a Democrat and running for as Democratic of a

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Speaker 1: congressional seat as I could think of that includes both

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Speaker 1: the Upper West and Upper East side of Manhattan. George

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Speaker 1: A you okay with that introduction? What would you add?

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Speaker 2: What would I would add is I think the Republican

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Speaker 2: Party moved away from planet Earth and moved away from

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Speaker 2: me and all that is right and decent and just

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Speaker 2: and things like you know, I mean, we have a

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Speaker 2: Republican bar today that believes in tariffing the shit out

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Speaker 2: of every country in the world for no apparent reason,

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Speaker 2: and and you know, depriving people of their civil liberties

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Speaker 2: by taking them off from the into dungeons. And it's not,

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Speaker 2: it's not. It's not the Republican Party I joined in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty and I, you know, it's just a completely

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Speaker 2: I don't think it's conservative at all.

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Speaker 1: I think right, and I you know, I take you

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Speaker 1: as somebody because I it's funny. I think we all

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Speaker 1: go on these journeys. You you sort of figure out

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Speaker 1: your own politics when you watch the two parties sort

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Speaker 1: of carve things up differently. Yes, and I realized I

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Speaker 1: was more libertarian than I thought I was. I had

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Speaker 1: no idea right until you until you start to see

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Speaker 1: and it's on. You know. I always said the Republican

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Speaker 1: Party was made up of sort of you know, various coalitions.

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Speaker 1: There was your you had your Evangelicals, your Christian Conservatives,

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Speaker 1: you had your sort of Chamber of Commerce types. But

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Speaker 1: then they were also the libertarian conservatives sort of you know,

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Speaker 1: get government off my back. Am I wrong to assume

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Speaker 1: that that's probably what threw you to the party, that

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Speaker 1: drew you to the party.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I look, I mean I was more I was

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Speaker 2: more like an I mean what drove why the reason

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Speaker 2: why I became a Republican in nineteen eighty, I mean

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Speaker 2: I became a Republican after the election of Reagan.

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Speaker 1: I was that was a year's not to get religious here,

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Speaker 1: but a lot of people sort of sort of embraced

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Speaker 1: being a Republican nineteen eight. My father was one of

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Speaker 1: those people. He was from this Reagan Democrat that never

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Speaker 1: voted Democrat again, you know I.

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Speaker 2: In high school. If he would ask me what I

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Speaker 2: was in nineteen seventy seven, when I was in ninth grade,

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Speaker 2: which is in the Lake of Watergate, I consider myself

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Speaker 2: a Scoop Jackson Democrat in nineteen eighty, which was my

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Speaker 2: first my freshman year in college that fall when the

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Speaker 2: election happened, and I was kind of done with Jimmy

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Speaker 2: Carter and I actually, if I had been old enough

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Speaker 2: to vote, I was only seventeen, I would have voted

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Speaker 2: for John Anderson. And then when Reagan won, it was like, well,

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Speaker 2: I don't really disagree much with what he said, as

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Speaker 2: he wants a strong national defense, and I have been

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Speaker 2: you know, I my education on economics was listening to

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Speaker 2: Teddy Kennedy talk about wage and price controls and reading

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Speaker 2: about wage and price controls how historically they didn't work,

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Speaker 2: and then watching the documentary Free to Choose, remember that

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Speaker 2: on PBS with Milton and Rose Friedman, and it was like,

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Speaker 2: I don't think the government needs to run everything, and

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Speaker 2: that was that was the source of my conservatism. And

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Speaker 2: as a legal you know, legal conservatism, you know, that

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Speaker 2: was an era where legal the law was kind of

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Speaker 2: in turmoil constitutional as turmoil, because the question was how

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Speaker 2: far could judges take vague or not even just principles

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Speaker 2: in the Constitution that they just create on their own,

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Speaker 2: because I think they want to make the world a

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Speaker 2: better place. And I know it's like, no, no, no, I

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Speaker 2: I read the document. What does the document say? And

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Speaker 2: what do you know? If we don't like the document,

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Speaker 2: there's a whole thing you do to change it. And

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Speaker 2: so I became a legal conservative as well. I was

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Speaker 2: never evangelical or religious conservative. It was more I was

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Speaker 2: kind of a you know, a legal conservative in the

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Speaker 2: sense that I read texts and I try to be

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Speaker 2: objective about what they say. I was a economic conservative

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Speaker 2: of the sense that I didn't believe in, you know,

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Speaker 2: Teddy Kennedy's price price controls, and rumored the only person

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Speaker 2: who did price controls in our lifetime was rich Out,

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Speaker 2: a side cool figure.

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Speaker 1: And there's always a Richard Nixon. Well, now there'll be

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Speaker 1: the Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: Nixon was one of the most liberal presidents of our lifetime.

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Speaker 1: Not even close exactly. I mean, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, you can't explain to the kids what's.

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Speaker 1: Funny about it is that you know who would have

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Speaker 1: agreed with that was Nixon himself, because Nixon would have

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Speaker 1: argued he was simply responding to what was clearly popular.

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Speaker 1: It was popular to get the government more involved in things.

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Speaker 1: Medicare was popular, the civil rights you know, we were through.

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Speaker 2: Thebay he started. I mean, he did all that shit,

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Speaker 2: and he had you know, and and and you know

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Speaker 2: you ever, I'm sure, of course you've watched.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, he would have signed off on

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Speaker 1: some form of the version of Obamacare today was essentially

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Speaker 1: what Nixon would have agreed to if Kennedy would have

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Speaker 1: signed off on it.

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Speaker 2: Well, yeah, and remember remember when he got back from China.

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Speaker 2: There's there's this opening scene to all the President's met

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Speaker 2: which begins his State of the Union address in nineteen

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Speaker 2: seventy two or none of it was a jointed address

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Speaker 2: to Congress after coming back from China, and it's democratic Congress,

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Speaker 2: like overwhelmingly a democratic Congress, like democratic has ever been

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Speaker 2: in our lifetimes, and he's getting a standing ovation. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the deep down hated him because he was stealing their

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Speaker 2: thunder and co opting them and all sorts of stuff,

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Speaker 2: but they got all, you know, he was he was

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Speaker 2: actually a very liberal president. He was corrupt as hell

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Speaker 2: and and did all sorts of illegal ship and covered

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Speaker 2: it up. But you know, he was he was a

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Speaker 2: little president. But anyway, you know, it's the point is

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Speaker 2: that the party. You know, when I try to explain

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Speaker 2: to people, younger people today, like they say conservative Republican,

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Speaker 2: they think conservative Republicanism was always trump Ism. I know

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Speaker 2: it wasn't the case. They were. I mean some conservatives

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Speaker 2: they were, you know, Reagan somehow managed to bring the

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Speaker 2: evangelical conservatives with the more libertarian conservatives and the military

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Speaker 2: hawks all together, and it was That's what political parties are.

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Speaker 2: The coalitions today. You know, the Republican Party isn't a coalition,

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Speaker 2: It's a cult.

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Speaker 1: What's interesting about that is, I think the question that

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Speaker 1: I have as sort of I now call myself a

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Speaker 1: political anthropologist more than anything else these days.

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Speaker 2: But this is the perfect conversation for you.

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Speaker 1: That's because you know, it's sit there, and what iruggle

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Speaker 1: with is can the Democratic Party handle this many coalitions

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Speaker 1: under its tent? I said, you know, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you think about the twenty twenty coalition for Biden, you

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Speaker 1: had everybody from AOC to John Kasek and Liz Cheney

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Speaker 1: and when you try to stretch a tent, eventually it

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Speaker 1: might split in the middle. Yeah, and that is a concern.

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Speaker 1: At what point can can the Democratic Party successfully take

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Speaker 1: all of you refugees right and still have a coherent,

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Speaker 1: a coherent, proactive view of governance. I think it's very difficult.

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Speaker 2: Oh look, I mean we don't get to that question

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Speaker 2: until the current crisis.

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Speaker 1: Is over, no, which I find This is what I thought.

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Speaker 1: Your candidacy is so interesting to me because of how

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Speaker 1: honest you are about why you're running.

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Speaker 2: Right, and we don't get to have those policy Frankly,

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Speaker 2: I'm not I don't think them much different on policy

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Speaker 2: than your Abigail span Burger or your Nikey Sheryl or

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Speaker 2: you're who's the guy in Kentucky. I don't think, you know,

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Speaker 2: And I you know, Okay, I'm not a Mom Dannie Democrat,

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Speaker 2: but I you know, I get you know, we're an

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Speaker 2: AOC Democrat. But I get what they're trying to do.

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Speaker 2: And I you know, I kind of I admire that

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Speaker 2: they have this, you know, object of helping people, and

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Speaker 2: I have no problem with that. Is a question of

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Speaker 2: what the means are and how much it costs. We

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Speaker 2: don't get to have those debates now because we explain.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, explain your rationale. It's very unique. I think it's.

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Speaker 1: I like that how straightforward you are about your running.

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Speaker 1: And it's two terms. And here's my mission, right, tell

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Speaker 1: it to the tell it to my.

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Speaker 2: There it is okay. I'm sixty two years old, which

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Speaker 2: is why I remember, you know, Nixon going to China.

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Speaker 2: And I Never've always been kind of a political jerkie,

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Speaker 2: right I was. I grew up on Watergate, and I

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Speaker 2: was fascinating.

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Speaker 1: I think that's really why we hit it off so well, right, right,

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Speaker 1: I talk about.

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Speaker 2: On Watergate and and I developed two things. A fascination

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Speaker 2: with politics, with our constitute, no free things, our constitutional system.

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Speaker 2: And I also developed this hatred of corrupt politicians of

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Speaker 2: any party, of any strike, and of people abusing their offices,

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Speaker 2: which is why you know, I mean, I'm the guy

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Speaker 2: who helped Paula Jones, and I'm the guy who helped

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Speaker 2: Egene Carroll. And I'm the guy, you know, I'm the

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Speaker 2: guy who hated Nixon, and I'm got who hate Trump,

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Speaker 2: hated Trump, and it's it's it's just sort of my

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Speaker 2: through line makes sense to me. But you you know,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't make sense to somebody necessarily who's just saying, well,

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Speaker 2: he was a conservative republic look at what these conservative publicans.

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Speaker 2: How could you have ever done? And if you're politically

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Speaker 2: sophisticated in your older you get it, and if you're

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Speaker 2: listening to me, you get it. But anyway, my whole

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Speaker 2: point about running now I kind of went off the

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Speaker 2: question here. Okay, at age sixty two. The reason why

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Speaker 2: I'm doing this I should be retired. I am retired.

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Speaker 2: I'm a retired Laura. I worked a few blocks away

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Speaker 2: from here, I about twenty blocks away from here, and

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Speaker 2: I you know, I did well for myself. I should

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Speaker 2: be skiing in Park City right now. Okay, I should

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Speaker 2: be doing something or going on a world cruise. I

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Speaker 2: should be doing all this. I can't because this is

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Speaker 2: just this is just the last few years have been

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Speaker 2: so absolutely appalling to me. And you know, at this point,

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Speaker 2: I don't think a lot I don't think enough people get,

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Speaker 2: even Democrats, what we have to do here. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of I went to something last night at the

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Speaker 2: City Bar, which is this great panel with my friend

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Speaker 2: Judge Looting, and basically the lawyers are talking about, oh,

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Speaker 2: how can what can the courts do? And Louting is

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Speaker 2: saying the Supreme Court sucks and and it's it's disaster,

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Speaker 2: and other people saying, what about nationwide injunctions? All this

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Speaker 2: technical stuff about the law and how district judges are

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Speaker 2: doing their best and the Supreme Court's kind of screwing

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Speaker 2: them up, and then the administration is attacking the judges.

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Speaker 2: It's like the Framers did not He're gonna put my

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Speaker 2: federalist society or religious original on which you know, I

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Speaker 2: shouldn't say that.

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Speaker 1: The campaign people like, yeah, don't ever say don't say

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Speaker 1: the work, the effort worst you could say the other

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Speaker 1: f work.

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Speaker 2: You can't say this way, okay, the originalist view of

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Speaker 2: how you deal with a fucker like Trump, that's the

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Speaker 2: f work.

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Speaker 1: I think that's the that's the word you're allowed to use. Yes, okay.

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Speaker 2: Impeachment and removal the joke they didn't intend. The courts

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Speaker 2: cannot play. The courts don't have barneys, they don't have

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Speaker 2: police officers. At the end of the day to enforce

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Speaker 2: their orders. It requires the Justice Department to bring temper

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Speaker 2: seedings or the Justice Department to put people in jail.

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Speaker 2: They won't do that, and they can disobey orders anytime

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Speaker 2: they like. And what they do, and they're kind of

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Speaker 2: doing it in kind of a half assed way. What

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Speaker 2: they do is they basically, oh, they kind of comply

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Speaker 2: slowly with an with one order, like you know when

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Speaker 2: you're kind of you know, your kid is grudgingly doing something,

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Speaker 2: and they kind of take a long time.

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Speaker 1: So they always you're absolutely right, they complied just enough

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Speaker 1: to say they're complying with something.

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Speaker 2: Right, and then and then the courts can't hold them

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Speaker 2: in the contempt. And then they do the same thing

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Speaker 2: to the next person like they've done it like thousands

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Speaker 2: of times.

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Speaker 1: It's a total slow walk.

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Speaker 2: It's a strategy, right, it's a total strategy. And then

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Speaker 2: meanwhile they're attacking the courts. The courts cannot they cannot

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Speaker 2: fix this problem.

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Speaker 1: Okay, the problem, you're right, the framers.

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Speaker 2: Fixed by Congress. That's what they intended. That's why they

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Speaker 2: put the impeachment clauses in there.

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Speaker 1: They understood, you couldn't that a president was not going

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Speaker 1: to get a fair trap in our system. You couldn't

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Speaker 1: create a system to make it fair right in either

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Speaker 1: in any direction, which is why it had to be

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Speaker 1: done the separate way. My only concern about a third

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Speaker 1: impeachment is, I don't I don't want to presume why

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Speaker 1: you're you're focused on this, but I which is I

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Speaker 1: assume you want to say, look, we've got to send

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Speaker 1: that this is this is how you do it, this

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Speaker 1: is how the system is supposed to work, and look,

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Speaker 1: we'll do it again if we have to do it.

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Speaker 1: Do you worry that it's simply just weakens the weakens

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Speaker 1: it so much it just stops being a useful deterrent?

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Speaker 2: What what weakens impeachment?

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Speaker 1: Impeachment?

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Speaker 2: You know, it's never been weaker. That's the problem. Yeah, Okay,

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Speaker 2: the problem is we've kept.

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Speaker 1: Well, the problem is Mitch McConnell and that vote. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I go back. I mean everything was done exactly how

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Speaker 1: the founders intended, and Mitch.

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Speaker 2: Mccon hold a real trial. But let's set that aside.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Well, yeah, it's tough whatever a real tril's supposed

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Speaker 1: to look like with it comes to this in fairness, right.

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Speaker 2: You have to actually that's what they did with Andrew Johnson.

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Speaker 1: Well, and it's actually what was done with Clinton.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: We had a few witnesses. Yeah, they didn't actually one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: yeah on video, but so we I take your point

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Speaker 1: on that. But ultimately we were there and Mitch McConnell choked,

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Speaker 1: and you know.

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Speaker 2: He deserves to burn. I mean, I'm not gonna use

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Speaker 2: that language. He deserves, he deserves, he deserves.

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Speaker 1: I always say this. I hope he regrets the rest

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Speaker 1: of reprobation for that. I hope he loses ship every

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Speaker 1: night of his life.

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Speaker 4: He you know, he he he was, He was scared,

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Speaker 4: and he had he had the moment, he could have

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Speaker 4: he could have could he have gotten the requisite number

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Speaker 4: of what's I think?

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Speaker 2: So?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I know he gets Rob Portman, I know

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Speaker 1: he gets you know, probably till us. You know, there

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Speaker 1: were a handful that we're waiting for the signal, and

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Speaker 1: you know they would have come. I mean, if Cassidy

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Speaker 1: and Burr were there, imagine who else would have come

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Speaker 1: if McConnell had.

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Speaker 2: Voted absolutely And what he thought was, which is the

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Speaker 2: thing you cannot a mistake you cannot make with malignantly

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Speaker 2: narcissistic leaders like a Trump or a Putin or whatever.

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Speaker 2: You can't assume they're just going to go away. They don't.

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Speaker 1: He thought, shame would push push them away.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's not gonna go away. They always like,

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Speaker 2: they always come back for more, and they always seek retribution.

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Speaker 2: They never stop. They can't stop. They're not capable of stopping.

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Speaker 2: Which is why this guy's going to get worse and

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Speaker 2: worse and worse. Now in terms of whether we impeach

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Speaker 2: the power, if the power isn't is the most is

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Speaker 2: as weak as it's ever been, precisely because people say, oh,

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Speaker 2: we tried it twice, we can't do it. And if

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Speaker 2: that's true, and we're not going to try this president

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Speaker 2: in the Senate, if we're not going to try to

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Speaker 2: impeach this president and have a trial in the Senate

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Speaker 2: of this guy for doing every fucking illegal thing in

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Speaker 2: the book he could think of, and grifting off the

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Speaker 2: presidency and indicting UH political enemies on bullshit and and

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Speaker 2: and disobeying, you know, hutting government programs without acts of

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Speaker 2: Congress and usurpacing usurping Congress's power, and try and find

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Speaker 2: to rename everything, holding holding out this is the Gateway project,

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Speaker 2: right right that that's the Gateway project. They're going to

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Speaker 2: build an Amtrak tunnel there. And he wants he's holding

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Speaker 2: that hostage even though the money has been appropriated, and

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Speaker 2: even though the government has legal contracts obligating it to

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Speaker 2: fund this program, he's holding it costage because he wants

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Speaker 2: Penn station named after him in Dallas Airportner. This is

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Speaker 2: this guy, This is insane, and he's he's basically violates

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Speaker 2: his oath of office every minute of every hour of

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Speaker 2: every day, and except when he's tweeting in the middle

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Speaker 2: of the night. And and but you know, but is

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Speaker 2: if we can't impeach and remove this guy, then there

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Speaker 2: is no impeachment clause in the Constitution. There is no

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Speaker 2: impeachment provision in the country. There is no Article one anymore,

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Speaker 2: because Congress is basically seating its authority to a guy

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Speaker 2: who's basically saying I can make the law. So it's

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Speaker 2: really an all or nothing thing here. Do we want

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Speaker 2: a constitutional government? Do we want the rule of law?

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Speaker 2: Or are we just going to say, oh, we tried

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Speaker 2: impeachment twice and I don't We don't we want to.

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Speaker 2: We want to keep it in our back pocket and

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Speaker 2: keep it for the next time.

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Speaker 1: What's that know what? And that's this? Look, I sit

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Speaker 1: here and I will put my political anthropologist slash observer

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Speaker 1: hat on and say, boy, I don't know if this

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Speaker 1: is good politics, right, I don't know if this is

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Speaker 1: good for twenty twenty eight I don't know if people

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Speaker 1: are what do you do about the exhausted middle? But

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Speaker 1: here's the thing I can't push back on you on

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Speaker 1: you're not wrong about any of this, and and and ultimately, no,

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Speaker 1: you're not wrong about any of this. So it is.

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Speaker 1: It is sort of and the decision I'm thinking out

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Speaker 1: loud here. But the number of times that collectively political

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Speaker 1: figures and political parties make these compromises because of what

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Speaker 1: we'll play in the next election versus what is right

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Speaker 1: versus wrong right is probably why most Americans don't trust politicians,

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Speaker 1: because most politicians always take the easy path, the easier path,

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Speaker 1: the non conflicting path, because they think that's actually what

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Speaker 1: voters want, and no, they want me.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's this isn't a political calculus, Okay, I get it.

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Speaker 2: In twenty nineteen, there was a lot of, you know,

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Speaker 2: between Nadler and Pelosi and all the you know, all

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Speaker 2: the dynamics of the Democratic Caucus about whether to impeach

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Speaker 2: the guy, how much to impeach him on and how

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Speaker 2: quick the trial should be. You know, look, I get

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Speaker 2: politics place, these are political branches, but at the end

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Speaker 2: of the day, with what's going on here and now,

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Speaker 2: it's no longer a question of political calculus. It's a

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Speaker 2: moral and legal and constitutional obligation of Congress to do this.

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Speaker 3: Well, mate, let's make the other I think it's a

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Speaker 3: I would be a violation of the oath of office

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Speaker 3: for a member of Congress not to push for impeachment

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Speaker 3: when it is possible.

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443
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447
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449
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 1: something you should really think about it, especially if you've

450
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: got a growing family. What are the consequences of not

451
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: doing that?

452
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: The consequences of not doing this is basically, look psychologically,

453
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:51,200
Speaker 2: he's deteriorating, he's getting worse, he's getting more uncontrollable, he's dangerous,

454
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 2: he has you know, he's a he's a nut job,

455
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,840
Speaker 2: and he's a criminal, and he's a he's a malicious

456
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: and and human being will care, has no conscience, no morals,

457
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 2: no remorse, no empathy. And he controls five thousand nuclear

458
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 2: weapons in the entire armed forces of the United States

459
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 2: of America. And he's destroying our alliances and he's assuring

460
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:20,119
Speaker 2: our relationships with foreign countries. He's basically holding projects or

461
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:26,159
Speaker 2: infrastructure and healthcare spending hostage because of his whim. He

462
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 2: wants things named after him, and he wants to control

463
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:32,359
Speaker 2: people's He's creating his own private basically his own army,

464
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 2: domestic domestic army with fifty billion dollars that he wants

465
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: to spend on ice to control the cities. And you

466
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 2: know this is not separate from the elections in twenty

467
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 2: twenty six. You know, he was saying maybe you know

468
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: what Bonnie was saying, maybe we could He's up on

469
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: ice if you give us your voter roles. I mean,

470
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 2: this is he is trying to establish all powerfulness. He's

471
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,720
Speaker 2: taking away Article one powers of Congress. He's defining the courts.

472
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 2: He's threatening to to to fuck with the elections, and

473
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: he will do that. This is not this isn't even

474
00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 2: close to normal. This is this is the republic. The

475
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 2: rule of law, the constitution are all on the line,

476
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: and they are on the line now. And and if

477
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 2: you know, the only way you we stopped this is

478
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 2: a combination of people being out in the streets and

479
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 2: voting for members of Congress who will have the colhonis

480
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 2: to stand up to the guy and say that's enough.

481
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 2: We're not going to fund this. We are going to

482
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 2: impeach you and remove you. We're going to impeach and removed. No,

483
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 2: we're going to peach and remove Bondie We're going to

484
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 2: peach a reroove of Robert Kennedy for for for for

485
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 2: his crazy shit. Okay, and we have to do all

486
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 2: that or else. You know, we're not gonna last three

487
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: more years of this. We we aren't. I just don't.

488
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 2: I just don't think. I don't think there's enough alarm

489
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 2: and enough I think people are just thinking because we

490
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 2: we we have a country where, yes, a lot of

491
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 2: people are feeling the squeeze of of higher prices and

492
00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 2: of unaffordable housing and healthcare. But we have a lot

493
00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 2: of people who just it's like, Okay, well, I'm living

494
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: my life. It's nice. It's I get to I watch

495
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 2: my favorite shows on Netflix, and I get to watch

496
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 2: the watch the sports on TV, and I live in

497
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:27,280
Speaker 2: a nice, warm house, and I just can't deal with

498
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 2: all that stuff that's going on there. Well, that's how

499
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: democracies die. That's how, how, how how the rule of

500
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 2: law dies. That's how self government dies. And it is

501
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: dying before our very eyes unless we exercise the power

502
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 2: that Congress and the duty that the Framers impose the

503
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,440
Speaker 2: Congress of the United States to impeach and remove corrupt

504
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 2: executive officials. And we have never seen never in two

505
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years, we have never seen a government

506
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,600
Speaker 2: in the United States as corrupt as this one. And

507
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 2: if we can't get rid of this this one, we're screwed.

508
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 2: It's done. I still go my still just quit.

509
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 1: Harting was close. Harting was close. It was closer than Watergate.

510
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 2: I don't you know, I mean.

511
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 1: Hard handed over like just parts of the government. I mean,

512
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: I feel like people.

513
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 2: Do prosecute did he prosecute political enemies that.

514
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: I don't think. I'm just saying on the financial corruption,

515
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: it was, It's not worse than Trump. Trump is the

516
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: worst since Parting.

517
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm talking about I'm not so talking about financial corruption.

518
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 2: I'm talking about moral corruption. I'm talking about corruption of

519
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: the political is the corruption of office corruption And.

520
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: And I think this is actually probably is what made

521
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 1: it so hard to stop Trump is that where do

522
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: you start, right, It's such a target rich environment when

523
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 1: it comes to him that I you know, I've always

524
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: thought that that it's it's not a strategy, but it

525
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: happens to help him, that he so sprays the entire

526
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 1: sort of area with corruption that you're like, well, am

527
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,120
Speaker 1: I focused on the pay for play on pardons or

528
00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: the personal enrichment on crypto or what he's doing over

529
00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 1: here when it comes to I, you know, it is

530
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,600
Speaker 1: in some ways. And I don't know whether this is

531
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 1: an indictment of our media ecosystem, but I feel like

532
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: that's also part of the challenge of trying to concentrate

533
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: the American mind on how this corruption is sort of

534
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 1: upending the entire system.

535
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, look, I mean the Internet only has

536
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 2: so much bandwidth, the media is only so much bandwidth,

537
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 2: and our brains have only so much bandwidth. And yes,

538
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 2: by basically giving everyone the green light to do the

539
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:10,760
Speaker 2: worst things in the world, Okay, by by setting off, uh.

540
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: The we could do an entire five hours and just

541
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: how RFK Junior is destroying an entire generation of kids.

542
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 2: We can do we could talk about, you know, I mean,

543
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 2: if you wanted to, if we wanted to make a

544
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 2: list of impeachable offenses and start kind of tallying up,

545
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 2: we could we could we could you know, do this

546
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 2: for several hours, and then we'd have to have we'd

547
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: have to break and and and and we'll figure out

548
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: all the things we've missed. As I find throw darts,

549
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: pick something I don't care. But the whole thing in

550
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 2: totality is there is no question. We have a government

551
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: that does not give a ship about what the law is,

552
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: and thinks that it's making up the law, and thinks

553
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 2: that its purpose is to serve one man, even though

554
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: that man has taken a oath of office to to

555
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:02,479
Speaker 2: to execute faithfully the laws and constitution of the United States,

556
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 2: and he doesn't do that. He doesn't give a fuck

557
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 2: about that. He couldn't tell you what the laws and

558
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,479
Speaker 2: the constitution of the United State. He still thinks, as

559
00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:11,840
Speaker 2: he said in his first term, that Article two allows

560
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 2: me to do whatever I want. Okay, that's that's the

561
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: case for impeachment right there. Okay, you you just you

562
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: could you just find fifty five examples of what he's done.

563
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 2: You could, just you could, you know, it's like, there's

564
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 2: no It's like in law, we have this thing called

565
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 2: summary judgment, where basically the facts are not disputed.

566
00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: The facts, these are disputed facts.

567
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: If there are not disputed facts anymore, and and and

568
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: and that's if we and again, if we cannot do

569
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: this now here and now throw out we have to

570
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: throw out the impeachment clauses. We'll be throwing out the

571
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 2: beach fault, which is effectively throwing out the one last

572
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 2: check that that that Congress has to guard its own

573
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: legislative power on an Article woman, which means we're throwing

574
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: out Article one, which means we're throwing out the entire

575
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 2: structure of the Constitution and throwing out the rule of

576
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 2: law and democracy all at once if we do not

577
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 2: do this. So i'ms for impeachment and I don't. I

578
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: think it's irrefutable, and you know I don't. Again, it's like,

579
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 2: let me rant from.

580
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 1: Just go ahead on more.

581
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like, it's not a political game, it's not

582
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 2: political calculus anymore. It is a matter of survival. It's

583
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: a moral it's the moral obligation that people commit to

584
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: when they swear an oath to the Constitution as members

585
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:29,160
Speaker 2: of Congress.

586
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: Do you think your toughest, look do you? If you win,

587
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: you obviously are going to believe voters gave you this mandate.

588
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 1: The person you're gonna have to convince of this first

589
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: is akeem Jefferies. Have you had this conversation with him?

590
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: No, I haven't. I haven't spoken with with hopefully Speaker Jeffries.

591
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: Right, do you have, what's your mind is the best

592
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: strategy to get him to accede to this because he's

593
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: gonna have a lot of donors that tell him one thing.

594
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 1: He's gonna have a lot of I mean, here, here's

595
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: my calculus.

596
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 2: Here, I get why politically, somebody would be not taking

597
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: this position. Now, okay, because it's a it's a big tent.

598
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 2: There's a lot going on in the tent, a lot

599
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 2: in flux. But the two things will change. One is

600
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 2: I firmly believe that there will be a Democratic House

601
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 2: of Representatives come January third, twenty twenty seven. Two is

602
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: in the next eleven months, Trump is going to do

603
00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: stuffed it will make We haven't even foreseen that's worse

604
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,760
Speaker 2: than what he did during his first thirteen months because

605
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,200
Speaker 2: it just it just we know what the trend line is.

606
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,600
Speaker 1: As I like to quote Haley Barber, good gets better

607
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 1: and bad gets worse.

608
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: Bad gets worse, and he only gets worse. He's a

609
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: he's a malignant narcissist, the narcisstic sociopath at any strength.

610
00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: That's not going to change.

611
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 2: Only they never change, and you know, we get worse,

612
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: particularly when they get older and more.

613
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: You know, oh, the filter is definitely whatever filter existed

614
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: in there.

615
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 2: Are no checks because he surrounded himself, you know, the

616
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 2: first term, he surrounded himself with some fairly smart people

617
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: here and there.

618
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 1: Okay, well he did and Mike Pennce sort of, uh

619
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:23,760
Speaker 1: did a lot more to protect us than we fully

620
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:24,320
Speaker 1: appreciated it.

621
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and and and and and General Kelly and you know,

622
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 2: these those were.

623
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 1: You know, they were they were patriots, they were they

624
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: were you know, they.

625
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: They you know, it's you can't work for Donald Trump

626
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: without compromising yourself somehow. But at the same time, if

627
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 2: they weren't there, we would have had what we have today.

628
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: I always say this about people that work for Trump,

629
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: bar even bar right, no, no, no, no, but this

630
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,879
Speaker 1: is every and this has been true. I've studied, I've

631
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: gone back, and I've gone deep onto trump on. You know,

632
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: he never keeps an inner circle more than about five

633
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: or six years. It always rotates because he always throws

634
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: these people away. He always throws everybody away.

635
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: Why people don't think that they're going to be the

636
00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: next on the ball.

637
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: They won't be next. I always want to tell Marco

638
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,319
Speaker 1: Rubio Heylo, Marco, when when the when the public goes

639
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 1: south on one of these international adventures. Maybe it's Iron,

640
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: maybe it's Venezuela, maybe it's Cuba. You're getting the blame

641
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 1: for this. You're the magabus is.

642
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 2: Going to go in Hungarian citizen has been worked for horbon.

643
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. I want to go to something bigger

644
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: because you're you're at your You're I'm obsessed with the

645
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: fact that the reason our politics deteriorated over the last

646
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,000
Speaker 1: forty years, arguably since the fall of the Berlin Wall,

647
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: basically since the Cold War, has because is because of

648
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 1: the weakness of Congress. That Congress, right, they continue to

649
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:52,919
Speaker 1: sort of not do their job. And what it did

650
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,439
Speaker 1: was I find it interesting, Why did you join the

651
00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: conservative legal movement? You really joined because Congress didn't know

652
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,520
Speaker 1: what the hell it was doing. I joined it, and

653
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: so well, no, let me let me just finish here

654
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: in my framing because and so what it did was

655
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: it made the courts because the article, the guys in

656
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: charge of Article one failed to sort of respond to

657
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: the public. People felt they had no choice but go

658
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: to the courts. Go to the courts for reproductive rights,

659
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:21,240
Speaker 1: go to the courts to open up to desegregate schools,

660
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: the fact that Congress wouldn't do its job to desegregate schools,

661
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: to protect people's voting rights, to protect women's reproductive rights,

662
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 1: people had to go to the courts. So everything became

663
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:32,760
Speaker 1: about the courts and the only.

664
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:36,080
Speaker 2: Way Congress courts. And then and then the question who

665
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 2: put all of this ship in the court's hands?

666
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: Okay, Congress failing to be definitive on its exactly right.

667
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 2: But we have elected represented No, this is the point

668
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:47,359
Speaker 2: that So.

669
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: The point is is that what you're identifying and circling

670
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 1: and it gets it a bigger question that I'm obsessed with.

671
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: How do we strength? There's are two things I think

672
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: we need to do right. I'm you know, I gave

673
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: a lot of credit to Don Bacon for co sponsoring

674
00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 1: the pardon constitutional amendment that's been introduced. I don't know

675
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:11,239
Speaker 1: do you know about this? So Oluski Johnny o'luski is

676
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: a Democratic Member of Congress from Maryland. Fairly new member.

677
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: He introduced a bill basically a pardon Nullification Act kind of,

678
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 1: and he wants to introduce it as a constitutional medment

679
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,120
Speaker 1: that if twenty members of the House five members of

680
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: the Senate object to a presidential pardon, and then then

681
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 1: they can be brought to the floor. Two thirds of

682
00:37:28,680 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 1: Congress basically can overturn the same way you'd overturn a veto,

683
00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: but it's a constitutional amendment. And Don Bacon became the first.

684
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: You know, look, I have a lot of other ideas

685
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: and how for that.

686
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: That's fine. I would frankly make it less than two thirds.

687
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: A I agree, And I think I could make a

688
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: case of just repealing the entire presidential pardon for an individual.

689
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 1: I might come up with a party board.

690
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 2: Chris the power of pardon in Congress to designate a

691
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: pardon board like they had.

692
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: A pardon board exactly. You could two most senior members

693
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: of the cort Attorney General, President, vice president, Speaker pro tem, etc.

694
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 2: Thank you.

695
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 1: And it made me think that maybe, just like during

696
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: the turn of the twentieth century, that we might be

697
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 1: in an era where people are focused on Okay, we

698
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: need to remodel our democracy a little bit. Right. One

699
00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: hundred years ago, we realized we had to tax these

700
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: robber barons, so we did the income tax. We had

701
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 1: to make sure we had a democracy for everybody, so

702
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: we got rid of we let women, we gave women

703
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: the right to vote, and then we and then we

704
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: decided we we better directly elect senators because state politicians

705
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: were so corrupt. It was all being so, what do

706
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,359
Speaker 1: we need to do in our constitution today to sort

707
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: of deep to sort of trump proof going forward? Like,

708
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: because that's a conversation I think we also need to have,

709
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: is how do we ump proof our constitution?

710
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: I mean, that's something I talked about when I first announced,

711
00:39:02,280 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: which was I want to be in Congress for two reasons.

712
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: One is accountability, which includes investigating and impeaching and removing

713
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,240
Speaker 2: and I'm really talking more about that these days because

714
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: of how bad things have gotten. But the second is,

715
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:20,879
Speaker 2: and hopefully this will be a second of my two

716
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 2: terms in Congress, as you mentioned, would be a reconstruction,

717
00:39:26,520 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 2: a kind of modern American reconstruction. And I think all

718
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 2: of these things, you know, I mean, you know how

719
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 2: hard it is to amend the Constitution, So a lot

720
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 2: of things will have to be done from a statutory standpoint.

721
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:41,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I would love to see this pardon constitutional

722
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 2: amendment pass, but it's going to be hard because again

723
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's a process that is got to

724
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,400
Speaker 2: be two thirds there isn't three quarters of the states,

725
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: but you know, I'm all for that, But we also

726
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 2: have to focus on statutory things that can be done

727
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:03,399
Speaker 2: for examp, but with pardons, you know, Congress could pass

728
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: a law requiring disclosure of and and this requiring and

729
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 2: creating a body that investigates the circumstances that uh that

730
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: let lead to a partner and so that we have

731
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: a full disclosure of how a pardon came about. If

732
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,280
Speaker 2: it's not through the regular process, then has been adhere

733
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 2: to for years in the Justice Department from the Parton office,

734
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 2: and it's some you know, somebody contacts correctly.

735
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: As we all learned, what Trump has gotten all of

736
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: us to realize is don't assume norms can come back.

737
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 1: You're gonna have to legislate norms correct.

738
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 2: And legislating norms. The the unwritten rules about interrupting the

739
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: Justice Department, they have to be codified, and they have

740
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,799
Speaker 2: to and there have to be penalties for people who

741
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 2: violate them. Maybe not the president because the president, you.

742
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 1: Know, the separation of powers.

743
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,400
Speaker 2: It's a problem of powers, and this fucking community decision

744
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 2: went too far. But everybody else, you know, if you

745
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 2: if you're participants. Everybody else can be regulated. Congress is

746
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,360
Speaker 2: the wind. I mean, Congress has the power to do this. Okay,

747
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 2: the duty ultimately, in fact, the executive is to enforce

748
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:18,479
Speaker 2: an execution laws enacted by Congress. Congress gets to set

749
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,319
Speaker 2: the rules, which goes back to your point about how

750
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,520
Speaker 2: Congress has been basically defaulting on its obligation to set

751
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,439
Speaker 2: the rules for a very very long time on many

752
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 2: many things. So again there has to be like, once

753
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: we get rid of the current circumstance, M, we have

754
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 2: to really focus on reconstructing and reconstructing our legal and

755
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,440
Speaker 2: political system at the federal level by codifying these norms

756
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: that involve the Justice Department and everything else. And so

757
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: that's hard, but job one has to be we have

758
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 2: to get to a pososition where we don't have these people,

759
00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: these corrupt and evil people running the government for their

760
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:15,919
Speaker 2: own personal satisfaction and for the satisfaction and grift and

761
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: profit and ego of one evil, stupid man.

762
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,200
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764
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791
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Speaker 1: pushbacks you're going to get is this idea of like, Okay,

792
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: if you succeed, don't we just ebed? You know that

793
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 1: everything is just going to be, that this is basically

794
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: a cold civil war that will continue, that that there's

795
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 1: going to be no detent. There's not you know. And look,

796
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to this question other than

797
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: I always say the American voters figure this out over time,

798
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:23,840
Speaker 1: and they're going to figure this out. I'm going to

799
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:25,759
Speaker 1: trust them. I just don't know how many people have

800
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 1: to die before voters figure it out.

801
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:31,960
Speaker 2: Here's the metaphor that just popped into my head. Okay,

802
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: what was the name of that pocket in Southeast Korea?

803
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 2: When when when the Allies got pushed all the way

804
00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: back before? Yeah, yeah, okay, that's where we are, okay,

805
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,799
Speaker 2: and we're all we're almost done here. We're running. Our

806
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,880
Speaker 2: backs are to the Sea of Japan. Or whatever body

807
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: of water is there. We don't have much more time,

808
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: and we have to do you know, we have to

809
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:04,919
Speaker 2: age in politics in a way that has not been

810
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 2: engaged in because we've never had to engage in it.

811
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: In order to get back to at least the DM

812
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 2: the demolitraized Zome. We can't, you know, we're going to

813
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: lose the war to save our democracy if we don't fight.

814
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: And is it gonna Is this all going to resolve

815
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: itself in the next two or four years, I don't know.

816
00:45:27,320 --> 00:45:30,080
Speaker 2: I think there's gonna be a lot of damage to

817
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 2: the require decades to repair.

818
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I'll tell you we're on that.

819
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: We're on the precipice now. We can't worry about where

820
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 2: we're going to be five or ten years from now

821
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: if we don't fight back now.

822
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 1: No, and I and and I understand that mindset. Here's

823
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,879
Speaker 1: where I struggle. And I'll just use the example of

824
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:59,920
Speaker 1: the redistricting fight, which is, you know, the Democrats spent

825
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 1: fifteen years making the case that no, no, no, no, we've

826
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 1: got to take politics out of this. And obviously there's

827
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 1: no doubt right that that the Republicans Trump Abbott, Paxton

828
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: we're trying a little power game of politics. And it

829
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,239
Speaker 1: was finally, all right, if you're going to do that,

830
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 1: then the Democrats are going to fight back, And I

831
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 1: get it. And yet at the same time, I'm uncomfortable

832
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,560
Speaker 1: with the idea that the disenfranchising of voters in Texas

833
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:32,919
Speaker 1: that the best way to fight back is to disenfranchise

834
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:37,080
Speaker 1: voters in California or disenfranchised ight. You know, you get

835
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 1: where I'm coming from on this, And.

836
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 2: It's like, basically, we're doing things that we didn't ever

837
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 2: want to do.

838
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: Correct And it's like and then of course it just

839
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: feeds into the what about ism and then it actually

840
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: the other side will say, well, see they're willing to

841
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 1: break the rules too, so there are no rules. Fuck them.

842
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 2: Okay, but this is why you know, you have to

843
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 2: you have to win the war to enforce the peace. Okay,

844
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: Well you just tapped into something.

845
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 1: Not all Democrats believe this is a war, right, is

846
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: that a.

847
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 2: Problem they need? They're gonna they're gonna have to learn

848
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 2: and that's and I think this is I mean, I

849
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 2: think you see people who understand, there are a lot

850
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 2: of people who do understand in the Democratic Party that

851
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: this is I don't like the word war because it's

852
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 2: it cannotes violence.

853
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 1: No, but I'm worried about that. We've already had two

854
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 1: people get killed essentially for political protest.

855
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: Correct, absolutely, I mean, uh, but you know, it's not

856
00:47:36,760 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 2: a civil war. It's not that. I hope it doesn't become.

857
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,160
Speaker 1: Know what, what if Tim Wallas had called in the

858
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: National Guard?

859
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 2: No, we are but again this is you're absolutely right,

860
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 2: we are.

861
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: On the mean, we're a lot closer than people want

862
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:49,200
Speaker 1: to realize.

863
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 2: Correct, And that's why we can't get fussy about the

864
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: political tactics and the land. You know, I would never

865
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 2: call them the president president of the United States of

866
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: any party, a fucking piece of shit on a podcast

867
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 2: until today he is a fucking piece of shit, okay,

868
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: because and this is where we are, all right, someday

869
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: I would you know, I want to go back to

870
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 2: in America where I can't make the case that the

871
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,360
Speaker 2: president is a fucking piece of shit, all right, where

872
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 2: I would never think of using that language, even when

873
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 2: he did something bad or she whoever. It is, all right,

874
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: there are moments we have to we are to use language.

875
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 2: We have to use political legal legal devices, including this

876
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 2: business nothing illegal about what's what. But they didn't count

877
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 2: afford to the courts of Uphelder. The Supreme Court is

878
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 2: upheld it.

879
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,319
Speaker 1: Now. They went to the voters. I mean, I will

880
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:44,959
Speaker 1: give him that. They went to the voters and national

881
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 1: to the voters.

882
00:48:45,680 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 2: They did it, and you know, frankly, it's not really

883
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: disenfranchising people. Just you know, it's not dis ef you

884
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 2: get to vote. You're not being denied the right to

885
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 2: vote just because you are. You know your neighbors vote

886
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 2: the other way, okay, and.

887
00:48:59,080 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 1: No you we're not. Look I look at what the

888
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: Virginia maps.

889
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:07,040
Speaker 2: You want to have a portional representation system, amend the

890
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,440
Speaker 2: freaking constitution. I wouldn't be terrible. Of course, you have

891
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 2: the problem of a crazy multi mum. You know, well, no.

892
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,160
Speaker 5: I'm for would have two part I get you to

893
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 5: hear something else we have Israel and no, no, no,

894
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,320
Speaker 5: we got a better There's a simpler way to solve

895
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 5: our congressional map, and all it takes is an Act

896
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 5: of Congress uncap the House.

897
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 1: The House is too damn small. I know. The last

898
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: thing people think we need are more politicians. But congressional

899
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 1: districts shouldn't be eight hundred thousand people that there's point

900
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 1: that that they and I actually believe if you essentially

901
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 1: and you could put this as a constitutional amendment, which

902
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: is no congressional district could be more than zero point

903
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: zero three percent of the population, which right now would

904
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: put you in about three hundred and fifty four hundred thousand,

905
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 1: you'd actually solve the electoral college disparity problem immediately. And

906
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: then and you probably minimize the power of gerrymandering simply

907
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: because it's a lot easier to draw a community of

908
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: interest more districts. Yeah, that's right, districts, and you can't

909
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 1: you know, there's only so many ways you could jerry mander.

910
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:15,560
Speaker 2: When you have more districts, you need AI to do it.

911
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:19,879
Speaker 2: But you know, to cherrymandering that many districts and they

912
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 2: would be ridiculous of the.

913
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,439
Speaker 1: DISI but but anyway, that's it. Look, that's a that's

914
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 1: one of my pet issues. I think that if we

915
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 1: double the size of Congress, we'd also get we'd lower

916
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: the bar of entry, barrier to entry in a financial way,

917
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 1: and all sorts of things.

918
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 2: That's an interesting thought. And and and and I see

919
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 2: your point. The question is can a legislative body function

920
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 2: with that many people. That's that's the question.

921
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:46,439
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to that is a function now,

922
00:50:46,760 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, and and in fact, i'd argue

923
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,480
Speaker 1: the problem with it is that they don't let the

924
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 1: body function that only four people control Congress.

925
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not arguing with you on this. I'm just

926
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:57,520
Speaker 2: I thought it through.

927
00:50:57,600 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: I just that's the that's the no I look, and

928
00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 1: that that's the reason why they cap it. Well, we

929
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,040
Speaker 1: don't have enough office space, you know. It's it's sort

930
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 1: of like almost like you're like, we can all you

931
00:51:07,560 --> 00:51:11,080
Speaker 1: know exactly Downtown DC's empty, right.

932
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 2: You can you could, you could, you could have your

933
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:15,560
Speaker 2: laptop and in your apartment and be a that means

934
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: that as your office. But anyway, they probably the SaaS

935
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 2: would be smaller so you wouldn't need it.

936
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 1: But let me go, let me go at another issue,

937
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 1: another way to tackle this issue of of sort of

938
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:31,560
Speaker 1: what do you say to the the Trump voter who's

939
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: not a fan of Trump's character but keeps voting for

940
00:51:33,960 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: him because they just you know, they've got this policy

941
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 1: reason here, policy reason there, and and and I want

942
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: to take I'm going to assume the best that that's

943
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: the reason that there isn't some hidden thing that they're hiding,

944
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 1: you know whatever. You know, I think there's some people

945
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: that are there for racist reasons when they're not going

946
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:52,560
Speaker 1: to say it, but I'm going to set those people aside.

947
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 1: There are plenty of people just looked at it and said,

948
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 1: you know what, politics has been terrible. We needed a

949
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 1: disruptor like Trump. And I'm no fan of him, but

950
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:02,920
Speaker 1: I'm lad it's making everybody squirm. How do you get

951
00:52:02,920 --> 00:52:04,120
Speaker 1: that voter back in the fold?

952
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 2: I think that voter is going to get back in

953
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 2: the fold when the prices or prices of everything go

954
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:17,399
Speaker 2: up even more than they already have. When they see

955
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: chaos and disorder on the streets, which they are seeing

956
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 2: and they will see more of, I think they're going

957
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:27,200
Speaker 2: to realize that they're not really you know, for example, immigration,

958
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 2: I mean it's like this isn't you know if you

959
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: if you're a restrictionist, an immigration restrictionist relatively speaking of

960
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 2: the sort that you know you had. I mean, I'm

961
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:40,280
Speaker 2: old enough to remember in the nineties when Bill Clinton

962
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 2: created a Commission on Immigration where they were basically it

963
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,680
Speaker 2: was restrictionist, and the Chamber the Republican leading Chamber of

964
00:52:48,680 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 2: Commerce opposed the restrictions on immigration. I'm old enough to

965
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,239
Speaker 2: remember that. But you know, no one has, No one

966
00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 2: has done more damage in the long term, for example,

967
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 2: two restrictionist immigration policies than Donald Trump, because he's associated

968
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 2: them with this tyranny, to the point where even Republicans

969
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:15,440
Speaker 2: who voted for him because they wanted immigration to be

970
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 2: more restrictive and they wanted more immigration enforcement are repulsed

971
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 2: by what they're seeing on their TVs and on their phones.

972
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 6: So I think that I think that the people who

973
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:35,560
Speaker 6: are actually thoughtful about policy issues, okay, what they are

974
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 6: going to come back.

975
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:42,600
Speaker 2: Over and you're going to have left the core of

976
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 2: the people who have the malicious motives, of which there

977
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,640
Speaker 2: are unfortunately many, but not enough to elect the president.

978
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: How did the Republican Party you joined in nineteen eighty

979
00:53:55,080 --> 00:54:00,040
Speaker 1: end up Trump acolytes. Give me some not just a

980
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: broad brush, but give me sort of like I you know,

981
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,479
Speaker 1: when it go now looking backwards, right, you were there.

982
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:09,600
Speaker 1: You were on the inside.

983
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 2: That wasn't there. I was practicing law here in New York.

984
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 4: No.

985
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: But when I say that you were at least invited

986
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: to the parties, okay, and you might have been able

987
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:21,360
Speaker 1: to get inside the velopt rope. I think was it

988
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: always ends justifies the means.

989
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. But I do think there

990
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:36,480
Speaker 2: was this insolarity that was created in the conservative movement

991
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:46,440
Speaker 2: where they made themselves. I mean, they felt persecuted. They

992
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 2: didn't get invited.

993
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 1: The victimhood is the is clearly the currency of the right.

994
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 2: Well that's what that's what led us there. I mean,

995
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 2: you know the feeling. I mean, you look at a

996
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:02,719
Speaker 2: guy like Sam Alito, Okay, he is the most aggrieved

997
00:55:02,840 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: victim ever to ever see.

998
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:08,919
Speaker 1: I mean, by god, I think we'd all trade we'd

999
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,760
Speaker 1: all love to have the professional career event.

1000
00:55:12,040 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 2: Right, but he you know, but you can just see

1001
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 2: it in his writing and his personality and his and

1002
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 2: that when he does make public comments. You know, these

1003
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:26,879
Speaker 2: people are all deeply, deeply aggrieved and resentful, and they

1004
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 2: spent years kind of resenting people who had different views

1005
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 2: from them, who traded them, didn't always treat them with respect.

1006
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 2: I'll give them that, but it's not about you. It's

1007
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,760
Speaker 2: not about me, it's not about them, it's not about individuals.

1008
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 2: It's about the country. And I think these people. I

1009
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 2: think there's it's a what happened to the Republican Party

1010
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 2: was this? And again I might change this is I'm

1011
00:55:56,320 --> 00:55:59,319
Speaker 2: just spinning this off here just because it's what's coming

1012
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 2: to my head. And I you know, I would love

1013
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 2: to spend I would love to be in a position

1014
00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 2: not running for public office and would this all over,

1015
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 2: be able to think about it and maybe write a

1016
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 2: book about it. But I think it's just a crazy

1017
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 2: form of narcissism where people put their own resentment and

1018
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 2: feelings about how they are not part of this liberal elite,

1019
00:56:25,800 --> 00:56:28,759
Speaker 2: and they made that they define themselves that way to

1020
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 2: the point where they oppose everything that the people they

1021
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 2: oppose are for. Right, it's this, it's the freedom of

1022
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 2: speech and democracy and all that.

1023
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 1: Well, we saw it with the Second Amendment. Suddenly where

1024
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,520
Speaker 1: they where they alex gun in his hand.

1025
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: Where does it say in the Second Amendment that liberal

1026
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 2: protesters get to carry guns? Doesn't say that, I mean,

1027
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:55,480
Speaker 2: come on, I mean, but they're right.

1028
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's funny to me that your that should be

1029
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:03,640
Speaker 1: the caution cautionary tale for the left, meaning be careful,

1030
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: don't get the same viru. My biggest concern about Trump

1031
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,719
Speaker 1: coming back for a second term, and the real damage

1032
00:57:10,040 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: is that it was going to change the psyche of

1033
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: the political opponents of Trump, which is where suddenly where

1034
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:18,520
Speaker 1: you just well, we got to oppose everything the guy's

1035
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: doing because he can't be seen as doing anything right.

1036
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:25,320
Speaker 1: And I worry about that.

1037
00:57:25,680 --> 00:57:29,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, I mean I don't. I guess maybe because

1038
00:57:29,880 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 2: I'm a little more process oriented in some ways than

1039
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 2: a lot of other people.

1040
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: Well, I always say I'm an incrementalist and a b

1041
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: still wanting. I still I don't trust institutions, but I

1042
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: trust that a good institution with better incentives is better

1043
00:57:45,880 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: than any And that's.

1044
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: The reason why sort of like as I mean, I'm

1045
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 2: an incrementalist too, which is why I was a conservative,

1046
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 2: And okay, because I thought that was.

1047
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: My father's definition of conservatism. Hey, he used to say,

1048
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,160
Speaker 1: I want the Democrats to come up with the ideas

1049
00:58:03,200 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: and the Republicans to manage them. His theory was I'd

1050
00:58:06,760 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 1: rather have the empathy of the left and the you know,

1051
00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: managerial of the right. That was sort of his mindset. Yeah,

1052
00:58:13,480 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 1: I thought there's something to that.

1053
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,000
Speaker 2: There's something to that, and that's that's actually the way

1054
00:58:18,120 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 2: a healthy political system should function. Some people are pushing

1055
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 2: for something and other people say, wow, not.

1056
00:58:23,640 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: So fastive, slow down, let's slow down, let's think about this, right.

1057
00:58:27,160 --> 00:58:32,040
Speaker 2: Because democracy is a dialogue. It's a dialogue between the

1058
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 2: people and their elected leaders. It's a dialogue among the people.

1059
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: It's a dialogue between the elected leaders. And that's how

1060
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 2: we you know, people are pushing for change and other

1061
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:47,320
Speaker 2: people saying, well, let's slow this down or maybe where

1062
00:58:47,320 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 2: the change should be different, and you can't. But what

1063
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:58,080
Speaker 2: we have now is basically a nihilistic effort to destroy everything.

1064
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 2: And that's what Trump. You know, there's just this nihilistic,

1065
00:59:02,640 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 2: narcissistic animus among what is now you know, the the

1066
00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 2: the h what's the name of the ombu given he's

1067
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 2: an example of that advance and all these people there,

1068
00:59:19,160 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 2: there's just a nihilistic disc vo right and and and Miller.

1069
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 2: They want to destroy everything because they hate it so much.

1070
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:32,560
Speaker 2: They developed this sort of irrational hatred of everything that

1071
00:59:32,720 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 2: exists because you know, it represents the enemy, which is liberalism.

1072
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 2: And it's not about that, it's it's it. That's not conservatism,

1073
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 2: that's that's that's nihilism. And you know, these institutions that

1074
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 2: took generations to create, whether or not you would have

1075
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 2: created them in the first place. Right, there's a reason

1076
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 2: why they're there, Okay, there's a they're a purpose is

1077
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:02,960
Speaker 2: that they serve. Yes, maybe they can be reformed, maybe

1078
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 2: at some point they can be replaced or modified as

1079
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,959
Speaker 2: they should be over time. But to take a sledgehammer

1080
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 2: to everything that's not conservative, it's insane. And you know,

1081
01:00:14,880 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 2: the truth of the matter is today it's like, you know,

1082
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:21,560
Speaker 2: my kind of the Democrats are the conservatives today, which

1083
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:25,600
Speaker 2: is why incrementalists today in a lot of ways, and

1084
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 2: and and and they they they're the people who are saying,

1085
01:00:29,440 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 2: we can't do that. Hold on, what about what about

1086
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,280
Speaker 2: the people that it's going to affect? What about the

1087
01:00:33,640 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 2: what about the you know? And and that's basically what

1088
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, that's a way of looking at

1089
01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 2: what I'm doing today. That's why I'm a Democrat today.

1090
01:00:44,080 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 2: I couldn't be anything else.

1091
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:51,520
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1115
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:12,480
Speaker 1: I want to get you out of here on something

1116
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:17,320
Speaker 1: that I've been and it gets it to how to speak,

1117
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: how to convince some Trump voters that that there's a

1118
01:02:22,400 --> 01:02:29,120
Speaker 1: better way. The George W. Bush essay about George Washington.

1119
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:29,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.

1120
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:34,280
Speaker 1: I loved it. I thought it was a very clever

1121
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:39,880
Speaker 1: subtweet of the current occupant in the White House. I

1122
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: saw some of our friends and I'm going to say

1123
01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:48,600
Speaker 1: that on including including at where you've previously were hung

1124
01:02:48,680 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 1: your hat every now and then at the bulwark, you know,

1125
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:55,320
Speaker 1: and they're not alone of people that vacillate. Well, George W.

1126
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 1: Bush doesn't speak out enough. He should have more directly

1127
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: taken on Trump. And I look at Bush and I think,

1128
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 1: you know, the guy realizes it becomes at Trump the

1129
01:03:04,880 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 1: wrong way. He could weirdly strengthen Trump and it doesn't help.

1130
01:03:09,160 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 1: And I think he thinks about those things, and I

1131
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: think about that essay and go. I think a lot

1132
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: of people who voted Trump, voted for Trump, will read

1133
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 1: the essay because it doesn't mention Trump, and maybe a

1134
01:03:20,320 --> 01:03:23,040
Speaker 1: few people it will break through. The entire essay was

1135
01:03:23,040 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: about Trump and the fact that it so I loved it,

1136
01:03:27,560 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 1: and I thought, what do you make of the criticism

1137
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,520
Speaker 1: that it wasn't more that he didn't take a sledgehammer?

1138
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,960
Speaker 2: Essentially, I'm okay with not taking a sledgeham. I just

1139
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 2: think he should have written that a few years ago.

1140
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: That's fair.

1141
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 2: Okay, that's the problem I have. He should have written

1142
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:43,440
Speaker 2: it in twenty.

1143
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:45,480
Speaker 1: But you understand where they come down. I understand.

1144
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 2: I understand that not everybody can take the Conway sledgehammer approach.

1145
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 1: We don't well, and with Bush it could boomerang and

1146
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:54,600
Speaker 1: help Trump weirdly, and he didn't want to do that.

1147
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 2: No, that's absolutely right. But you know there are things

1148
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:01,080
Speaker 2: that he could have said that, don't you know. I

1149
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 2: have no problem with people. Look, I started out when

1150
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 2: I went off the reservation in twenty eighteen, or the

1151
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 2: reservation left me.

1152
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: I was going to say, Yeah, I don't know what

1153
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: which came first.

1154
01:04:13,720 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 2: You know, I left the camp in the camp, the

1155
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 2: camp left me, or whatever it is.

1156
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:19,640
Speaker 1: You want to Yeah, they took away your pass, whatever.

1157
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:24,200
Speaker 2: Whatever metaphor you want to use. I started out by subtweeting, remember, yeah,

1158
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 2: like I would just like, you know, here I am,

1159
01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:29,360
Speaker 2: I got my phone. Oh here's a nice op ed

1160
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 2: saying that Trump is, you know, destroying the.

1161
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: Justice for right? Interesting read? Yeah, yeah, what.

1162
01:04:35,800 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 2: What is what is Kelly and Conway's husband doing retweeting

1163
01:04:39,600 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 2: this liberal whose writing this? You know? And it was like,

1164
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 2: that was my way of doing it, you know, And

1165
01:04:47,440 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 2: I have no problem with people taking different approaches. I

1166
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:55,360
Speaker 2: think the criticism that I would still have of George

1167
01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 2: Herbert Walker Bush now George Walker Bush is he could

1168
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 2: have done a little more earlier, okay, and I wish

1169
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:10,680
Speaker 2: he had done that, But I completely respect and what

1170
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:14,080
Speaker 2: he did with this essay, and he does more of it,

1171
01:05:15,400 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 2: and maybe maybe he's sort of, you know, doing the

1172
01:05:18,160 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 2: path that I did, where you sort of like, don't

1173
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:21,560
Speaker 2: you know?

1174
01:05:21,680 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 1: Well, as I tell my wife this, I remember early

1175
01:05:24,080 --> 01:05:26,600
Speaker 1: on in Trump R, you'll you'll like, I think you'll

1176
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:31,800
Speaker 1: appreciate the story. I said, be careful, assuming they're all bad.

1177
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 1: I said, somebody you don't like might be the hero

1178
01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:36,840
Speaker 1: of this story. And you know, and of course, and

1179
01:05:36,880 --> 01:05:38,920
Speaker 1: then I joked three years later, she's giving money to

1180
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:43,760
Speaker 1: Liz Cheney. And and so I've always said that everybody

1181
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,520
Speaker 1: has a line that Trump eventually crosses. It's just that

1182
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 1: everybody's line is in a different place.

1183
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 2: And that's right. I mean, and Liz Cheney's example, even

1184
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:52,880
Speaker 2: Marjorie Taylor Green.

1185
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: Well, that's my point. I think it's it actually proves

1186
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 1: the point. Look, your line was crossed.

1187
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: Sooner twenty seventeen, Liz Cheney.

1188
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,280
Speaker 1: It took to January sixth, right, That's not I don't.

1189
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:07,720
Speaker 1: I'm not. I don't think she should be criticized for

1190
01:06:07,800 --> 01:06:10,200
Speaker 1: not getting there sooner, is my point. Like, I think

1191
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:12,960
Speaker 1: the only way you're going to win converts is to

1192
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: welcome them, don't.

1193
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,320
Speaker 2: You absolutely, I absolutely agree with that.

1194
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: And you no, don't say, oh, what took yourself?

1195
01:06:19,360 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 2: That's why I don't. I would never criticize this Cheney

1196
01:06:21,960 --> 01:06:26,920
Speaker 2: for for for for voting for Trump twice, okay, because

1197
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 2: you know, she thought wrongly that we could kind of

1198
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,840
Speaker 2: get by with him, and then she their line was crossed,

1199
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 2: and thank god it was crossed because she did, you know,

1200
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 2: I mean, she what she did in after twenty after

1201
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 2: January sixth was just and nobody else could have done that.

1202
01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:48,920
Speaker 1: Right, And that's right. She gave up, she gave she

1203
01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 1: gave backbone to the Democrats. It doesn't happen without her.

1204
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:56,400
Speaker 2: And I've been critical somewhat of my Pence right because

1205
01:06:56,840 --> 01:07:00,560
Speaker 2: my view of Mike Pence is, yes, he deserves enormous

1206
01:07:00,600 --> 01:07:04,960
Speaker 2: credit for what he did in January of twenty twenty one.

1207
01:07:05,600 --> 01:07:10,200
Speaker 2: But actually I think he had a moral obligation to

1208
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 2: concede the election in November or December at the very

1209
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 2: latest when the Electoral College voted in mid December, because

1210
01:07:19,440 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 2: he knew it was over, and he should have said so.

1211
01:07:23,120 --> 01:07:24,720
Speaker 2: And you shouldn't have been afraid of.

1212
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,880
Speaker 1: Donald you know, and you know who I was political calculations.

1213
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:32,400
Speaker 2: I was saying, I can't be your friend anymore, right, like, okay,

1214
01:07:32,600 --> 01:07:37,560
Speaker 2: but again I wouldn't. I don't. That's the I don't.

1215
01:07:37,800 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 2: I welcome you. I welcome the things that he's saying

1216
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 2: right now. And I think absolutely, you're right. We have to,

1217
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 2: you know. And there are people, there are people on

1218
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:52,320
Speaker 2: the Democratic side who basically say, oh, you you voted

1219
01:07:52,320 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 2: for Trump in twenty sixteen.

1220
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:55,320
Speaker 1: It's like, okay, you're part of the problem. You should

1221
01:07:55,360 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 1: have done the problem.

1222
01:07:56,120 --> 01:07:58,560
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be heard from it's like, Okay, well, you

1223
01:07:58,600 --> 01:08:01,280
Speaker 2: know you're not going to fix the if you if you,

1224
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 2: if you know when somebody toms over to your side

1225
01:08:06,160 --> 01:08:06,880
Speaker 2: and tells.

1226
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:11,400
Speaker 1: You you were right, yes, take the wind, take the wind. No,

1227
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:14,920
Speaker 1: it drives me nuts where people want to like, I

1228
01:08:14,920 --> 01:08:17,720
Speaker 1: can't believe. I have to say, look, just accept that.

1229
01:08:17,840 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 1: Marjorie Taylor Green. Now you know, I actually think she's

1230
01:08:21,400 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 1: a fascinating.

1231
01:08:22,760 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 2: Oh, totally Robert Draper piece.

1232
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:28,360
Speaker 1: It's what no, I mean, here's the thing we all

1233
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: dream of a citizen legislature. She was a woman who

1234
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:35,559
Speaker 1: owned a gym. She didn't know much about politics, saw

1235
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:37,840
Speaker 1: how Trump did it, and thought, oh, this is I

1236
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:40,960
Speaker 1: guess it works this way, I'll try it. And then

1237
01:08:41,000 --> 01:08:44,080
Speaker 1: eventually Trump, like I always tell people trouble, eventually let

1238
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 1: you down. Because he lets everybody down, you name it,

1239
01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:51,080
Speaker 1: including his father and mother. He lets every single person

1240
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:53,760
Speaker 1: in his life down. This is what he does. And

1241
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:57,240
Speaker 1: she gets there and I've seen some people say yeah,

1242
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:00,479
Speaker 1: but with her, and it's just like, why don't you

1243
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 1: respect her journey because guess what she did disagree with

1244
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:06,960
Speaker 1: you on some ideological concerns, and yeah, she is a

1245
01:09:07,439 --> 01:09:10,280
Speaker 1: bit more of an isolationist and probably a bit more

1246
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: of a nationalist, but she also appears to be a constitutionalist.

1247
01:09:14,640 --> 01:09:18,800
Speaker 1: I will take anybody who's a constitutionalist, regardless of where

1248
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:22,400
Speaker 1: they stand on on a variety of issues.

1249
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 2: And it doesn't mean you can't be critical of her

1250
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:27,120
Speaker 2: for the crazy some of the crazy things she said

1251
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:30,320
Speaker 2: about corrects and stuff like that. But you can say,

1252
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:34,840
Speaker 2: thank God, she's doing the right thing now, and you

1253
01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:38,800
Speaker 2: know you can't and you shouldn't reject the fact that

1254
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,960
Speaker 2: she wants to basically make things better in much the

1255
01:09:42,000 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 2: same way that we do. And that's like, I welcome that.

1256
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:47,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like you don't win, you know, I mean,

1257
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 2: what if the Allies, I mean the Allies, were they

1258
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 2: going to say, Italy, Joseph Stalin, we got it four.

1259
01:09:55,479 --> 01:09:58,320
Speaker 2: Let's let's know, we're not going to let you switch sides.

1260
01:09:58,439 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, I mean, right, we could have

1261
01:10:00,520 --> 01:10:02,840
Speaker 1: easily said, oh screw you. You guys weren't with us at

1262
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:06,719
Speaker 1: the beginning, half you Stalin, and we'd still be fighting

1263
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 1: the war.

1264
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:10,759
Speaker 2: And you're that's not how that's that's Look, the human

1265
01:10:11,840 --> 01:10:15,840
Speaker 2: part of the human condition and part is that we

1266
01:10:16,000 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 2: fun up, we make mistakes, We make judgments, We don't

1267
01:10:19,479 --> 01:10:23,000
Speaker 2: see the truth as it really is. Sometimes we deny,

1268
01:10:23,680 --> 01:10:29,679
Speaker 2: we convince ourselves. But part of you know, maturity and character,

1269
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:35,000
Speaker 2: and frankly of the kind of spirit that should animate

1270
01:10:35,200 --> 01:10:40,360
Speaker 2: a democracy is the humility of knowing that you're not

1271
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:43,519
Speaker 2: always right and that there are times where you have

1272
01:10:43,600 --> 01:10:47,599
Speaker 2: to admit that you are wrong. And that is what

1273
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 2: we need to foster among many people who voted for

1274
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:56,559
Speaker 2: Trump once, twice or thrice today and that you know,

1275
01:10:56,600 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 2: it's like that Saturday Nights Live skit that we saw

1276
01:10:59,040 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago with the mom. See that

1277
01:11:02,040 --> 01:11:05,559
Speaker 2: one where the mom is saying, I have something to say.

1278
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:09,160
Speaker 2: I want you not to say anything in response, and

1279
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:12,240
Speaker 2: she's like kind of trying to force out that I

1280
01:11:12,439 --> 01:11:15,880
Speaker 2: may have been wrong in thinking that Donald Trump was

1281
01:11:16,400 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 2: you know, good for the country. And the kids go, well, Mom,

1282
01:11:19,400 --> 01:11:23,439
Speaker 2: don't shut up, don't and we have to be those kids.

1283
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 2: We have to be those kids. And the kids are like,

1284
01:11:27,040 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 2: you know, they said, Mom, we talked no, no, stop,

1285
01:11:29,920 --> 01:11:32,120
Speaker 2: I told you no.

1286
01:11:32,120 --> 01:11:33,360
Speaker 1: Nobody likes to be told I told you.

1287
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:35,519
Speaker 2: Nobody likes to be told that they're wrong. Nobody likes

1288
01:11:35,560 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 2: to be admitted, to admit that they're wrong, But we

1289
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:41,599
Speaker 2: need to make it easier for people, because it really

1290
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 2: is a lot of why trump Ism has persisted is

1291
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 2: that people he led people so far astray that in

1292
01:11:51,240 --> 01:11:56,240
Speaker 2: order for them to recognize how far morally they strayed,

1293
01:11:57,400 --> 01:12:01,080
Speaker 2: they have to look themselves in a mirror and admit

1294
01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 2: how bad he is, which makes them feel bad about themselves.

1295
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:08,719
Speaker 2: So they and everything, and so they leave, They leave

1296
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 2: News Max on, Fox News on so they don't have

1297
01:12:12,120 --> 01:12:16,120
Speaker 2: to hear the bad things that are happening. And you know,

1298
01:12:16,960 --> 01:12:18,680
Speaker 2: sooner or later at the grocery store, they're going to

1299
01:12:18,680 --> 01:12:20,840
Speaker 2: figure out, oh, this isn't working out so well.

1300
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:26,599
Speaker 1: Well, I'm tempted to give you the dumb New York

1301
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:30,040
Speaker 1: City questions to like your favorite bagel joint, metzer Yankees

1302
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 1: and all that, all the nonsense. But you know, in

1303
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: all seriousness, when you're out there, what are the you know,

1304
01:12:37,840 --> 01:12:39,680
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna get you out here on this, what

1305
01:12:39,720 --> 01:12:41,920
Speaker 1: are the questions voters ask of you that are not

1306
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:43,080
Speaker 1: about Donald Trump?

1307
01:12:45,960 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 2: You know, the ones who come up to me talk

1308
01:12:47,880 --> 01:12:48,479
Speaker 2: about Trump.

1309
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:52,320
Speaker 1: I think, well, I that would be my instating.

1310
01:12:53,040 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, I can tell you you know,

1311
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:01,120
Speaker 2: there absolutely is I mean, there's a reason why Zorium

1312
01:13:01,479 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 2: Mumdani is the Mayor of New York. There are a

1313
01:13:03,800 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 2: lot and there's a reason. You know, it's not just

1314
01:13:06,240 --> 01:13:11,040
Speaker 2: in there are problems with how you know, I mean,

1315
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 2: we're living in an era where healthcare is becoming it's

1316
01:13:13,760 --> 01:13:16,599
Speaker 2: the most rapidly growing industry in New York.

1317
01:13:18,520 --> 01:13:21,120
Speaker 1: It's our job growth engine, the job.

1318
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:23,880
Speaker 2: Because we're all getting older, and because we're getting older,

1319
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:29,240
Speaker 2: we're getting sicker, and there's higher demand for you know,

1320
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:35,160
Speaker 2: medical services and medicines. And you know, when you have

1321
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 2: increased demand and supply isn't necessarily you know, it's it's

1322
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:43,120
Speaker 2: creating costs that people can't afford, and we need to

1323
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:47,720
Speaker 2: figure out a way to make the necessary care affordable. Absolutely,

1324
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 2: and obviously that's something that greatly confer the the the

1325
01:13:53,040 --> 01:13:57,639
Speaker 2: the refusal to to fund the subsidies, and and and

1326
01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 2: and and so on. You know, people are concerned about that.

1327
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:05,440
Speaker 2: They're concerned about the cost of housing in New York City. Absolutely,

1328
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:07,880
Speaker 2: it's crazy. It's always been crazy expensive. But it's you know,

1329
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 2: it's no, it's not it's you know, you need more supply.

1330
01:14:13,439 --> 01:14:16,439
Speaker 2: But you know, a lot of these problems at least

1331
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 2: from the standpoint of someone from from a federal legislative

1332
01:14:21,439 --> 01:14:25,120
Speaker 2: lever position. Can't be dealt with him til he's gone.

1333
01:14:25,240 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 2: And and you know, and there are things like, for example,

1334
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:27,920
Speaker 2: who who who?

1335
01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:28,160
Speaker 1: Who?

1336
01:14:28,360 --> 01:14:30,200
Speaker 2: Who took out the salt deduction?

1337
01:14:31,240 --> 01:14:31,439
Speaker 1: Right?

1338
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:32,599
Speaker 2: Who is Donald Trump?

1339
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 1: There was?

1340
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:39,639
Speaker 2: That was like his first effort to punish Blue states, Okay,

1341
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:42,519
Speaker 2: and and and New York, New York City, New York State,

1342
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:47,200
Speaker 2: New Jersey. They've been paying the price ever since. But

1343
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:49,880
Speaker 2: we can't, you know, restoring the salt deduction. How are

1344
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:51,879
Speaker 2: you going to do that with Donald Trump being president?

1345
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 2: Can't do it. So my answer to everything is I

1346
01:14:57,120 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 2: feel your pain, I understand your issue. I agree we

1347
01:15:01,280 --> 01:15:03,960
Speaker 2: have to do something about it. I may not agree,

1348
01:15:04,040 --> 01:15:06,720
Speaker 2: for example, with Medicare for all. I may support a

1349
01:15:06,760 --> 01:15:11,240
Speaker 2: different approach than Medicare for all or whatever, but I'm

1350
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:14,479
Speaker 2: with you. That's what that's what we need to do,

1351
01:15:14,600 --> 01:15:19,200
Speaker 2: because you know, we are in we it's become an

1352
01:15:19,240 --> 01:15:23,320
Speaker 2: expectation and duty of government throughout the Western world to

1353
01:15:23,360 --> 01:15:26,839
Speaker 2: make sure that health care is affordable. But we can't

1354
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:29,080
Speaker 2: do it until he's gone and we have a government

1355
01:15:29,080 --> 01:15:34,799
Speaker 2: that actually is rational and is not a criminal enterprise

1356
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:40,480
Speaker 2: designed to fall to support and the financial and egotistical

1357
01:15:40,880 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 2: impulses of one deranged to brave human being.

1358
01:15:48,680 --> 01:15:50,720
Speaker 1: I'm tending to keep going. We've gone a long. I

1359
01:15:50,800 --> 01:15:52,640
Speaker 1: usually don't go over an hour around interviews because I

1360
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:55,639
Speaker 1: always worry about whether people fade away. But I don't

1361
01:15:55,680 --> 01:15:57,519
Speaker 1: think anybody fades away from you, buch Front.

1362
01:15:57,720 --> 01:15:59,480
Speaker 2: I mean, this was an amazing conversation.

1363
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 1: I look, I wanted. I love to do it again.

1364
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:05,960
Speaker 2: I can to talk to a political anthropologist at this length.

1365
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 1: Ah, you're very you're you're you're you're amusing to me

1366
01:16:09,560 --> 01:16:12,960
Speaker 1: that you're using my words either against me or with me.

1367
01:16:14,640 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 1: But uh, I want to do this again because every

1368
01:16:18,280 --> 01:16:22,479
Speaker 1: week I think, I just you're a process guy. I

1369
01:16:22,520 --> 01:16:26,200
Speaker 1: love process, and we're all trying to ultimately the country

1370
01:16:26,280 --> 01:16:29,719
Speaker 1: is better when there's a process to follow, and what

1371
01:16:30,720 --> 01:16:34,559
Speaker 1: want to do. Grifters don't want process because they get

1372
01:16:34,600 --> 01:16:37,840
Speaker 1: caught when there's When when there's a process. All right,

1373
01:16:37,880 --> 01:16:40,439
Speaker 1: my friend, be safe on the trail. I mean, I

1374
01:16:40,439 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 1: do I assume you worry about those things.

1375
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 2: I do worry about these things.

1376
01:16:45,439 --> 01:16:49,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, we all unfortunately, as my friend Paul Rykoff says,

1377
01:16:49,600 --> 01:16:52,320
Speaker 1: stay vigilant, I think it's true. We all need to

1378
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:55,920
Speaker 1: all right, sir, be safe.

1379
01:16:56,040 --> 01:16:56,080
Speaker 2: H