WEBVTT - Susan Orlean: The Library Book 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:05.080 This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:13.440 --> 0:00:16.360 Anyone and everyone is welcome to the library. That's part 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:19.920 of their glory. That's part of why they are such 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:26.400 special institutions. That means that you can have people with 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.200 ill intent coming into a library. 0:00:35.880 --> 0:00:39.760 I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:42.519 in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the 0:00:42.560 --> 0:00:46.400 podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career, 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:50.440 research for my many audio and book projects has taken 0:00:50.479 --> 0:00:53.720 me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.480 with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers, 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.880 and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:06.720 crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both 0:01:06.760 --> 0:01:09.720 good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the 0:01:09.800 --> 0:01:16.000 unpublished details behind their stories. Author Susan or Lean wrote 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:18.680 a best selling book years ago that you've probably heard of, 0:01:18.920 --> 0:01:22.320 The Orchid Thief. It was made into a movie called Adaptation. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.960 Susan has now written another book, this one about an 0:01:26.040 --> 0:01:29.240 unexpected crime that might not have been a crime at all. 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.640 A fire in the La Public Library destroyed more than 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:35.759 four hundred thousand books in nineteen eighty six. Did they 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:39.240 find out what caused it or who? Susan tells me 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.559 the story at the center of her book, The Library Book. 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:47.720 So I think we should talk about the book that 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.560 you had that was just an incredible success, Not that 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:51.760 this one hasn't been. 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:54.560 But what book would people most know you for. 0:01:55.680 --> 0:02:00.680 Probably The Orchid Thief, I'm guessing, even though that came 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:05.120 out twenty five years ago, but it's had a very 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:09.240 long after life in the best sense that people continue 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.880 reading it. But also because it was made into a movie, 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:18.000 was made into the film adaptation, which is a somewhat 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:23.440 iconic film of its moment, and I think a lot 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:24.280 of people. 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:26.440 Learned about the book because of the movie. 0:02:26.600 --> 0:02:29.000 Were you a screenwriter on that movie? I can't remember. 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:33.600 No, No, I was not. I take no credit for it. 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:38.600 I wish I could, but I didn't write on it, 0:02:38.720 --> 0:02:44.600 and I'm merely the happy recipient of brilliant screenwriting. 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:47.160 Now this book that we're getting ready to talk about 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:49.000 that was optioned, right, is it being turned into a 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:50.280 movie or a TV series? 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:53.000 A TV series, yeah. 0:02:52.560 --> 0:02:54.080 And are you participating in that? 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:58.600 I am for the first time I decided that I 0:02:58.639 --> 0:03:03.320 wanted to have a hand in the process. So I'm 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:05.839 working on developing that for television. 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.120 Boy, what a different muscle you have to flex for that, 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:10.960 isn't it? Or do you feel like it's sort of 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:11.840 the same process. 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:13.480 It's very different. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.840 I mean, part of it is obviously rooted in the 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.720 same skill set. 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:21.840 You know, it's about. 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:30.359 Creating characters, it's about conveying emotion storytelling, and that is consistent. 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.640 But television, film, you. 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:40.560 Know, all of those media are all about visual storytelling, 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:46.960 and everything has to be conveyed with a visual component. 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:52.920 So that's entirely different from writing for the page, where 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:58.559 there is no visual component and all of the description, 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:05.160 all of the sort of interior conversation, is all on 0:04:05.200 --> 0:04:05.880 the page. 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:07.880 So it's very very different. 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.080 Now, I've had a couple of my books optioned, and 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.840 you know, we got to the development stage and I 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:17.080 remember having a discussion with the producer about the main 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:18.960 character in the way that he was going to look, 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.840 and we had different opinions on that. And so at 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:24.360 what point do you have to let go of those 0:04:24.360 --> 0:04:26.480 sorts of things and just say. 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:28.520 I need to stay in my own lane. And you know, 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:29.080 once you. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:32.120 Once you sign that paper, they can do and you know, 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:33.719 a lot of cases what they want to do with it, 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:34.760 what they think is best. 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:38.920 Well, I think the healthiest attitude is to let go 0:04:39.160 --> 0:04:44.039 right away option your work to people who you respect, 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:49.479 and then step aside. I mean, if your ultimate goal 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.880 is to maintain total control, you should probably not option 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:58.320 your material to begin with. If what you want is 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:03.400 to see the project develop, and you sign on with 0:05:03.520 --> 0:05:06.680 someone who you respect and who you think is smart, 0:05:07.320 --> 0:05:11.480 you have to go with the assumption that they're making 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.919 decisions in the best interest of getting the project to 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:22.600 move forward. And I've found that surprisingly easy. I feel like, look, 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:29.359 I've written my work. I'm in a sense, I'm done. Yeah, 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.680 you want to borrow my work and do something with it. 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:37.320 I don't need to control that. That's your project. 0:05:38.040 --> 0:05:41.160 It's like loaning someone a piece of clothing and they 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:44.599 wear it differently than you would wear it. Yeah, but 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:47.320 you don't want to be in their room going no, no, 0:05:47.400 --> 0:05:50.360 you have to wear it with black tights and blue shoes. 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:54.080 And if that's what you want, you shouldn't loan it. 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:54.960 In the first place. 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:55.960 Yeah. 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.200 Absolutely, Well, let's start talking about your book, which I 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.720 know was published about what eight years ago, seven and 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:06.440 a half years ago, but continues to have an afterlife, 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.400 which we all hope for as authors. 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:09.920 So that's good news for you. 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:13.080 Let's start with the way that you think it makes 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:16.600 sense to tell this story. Is it to sort of 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:19.680 dig into the mystery of it and what happens, you know, 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:23.040 from the very beginning, or is it to talk about 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:24.680 you and libraries a little bit? 0:06:25.000 --> 0:06:25.720 What do you want to start? 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:28.919 I guess it really is a bit of a hydra 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:37.359 with many heads. The book began with my curiosity. 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:38.880 About the day to day. 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:42.560 Life of a big city library. It just struck me 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:47.640 as an interesting story to tell that, to my knowledge, 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.480 had never been told, which is like, what is it 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:51.479 like day. 0:06:51.320 --> 0:06:53.120 To day in a library? 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:59.320 And that was a very documentary sort of curiosity. 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:01.360 I want to sort of. 0:07:01.440 --> 0:07:05.960 See the unfolding of life in a library and tell 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.359 all of those little stories that weave in and out. 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:16.400 Then I found out about this catastrophic fire that had 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:19.600 occurred at the LA Library, which was the library I 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:23.360 was going to write about, and it was the largest 0:07:23.520 --> 0:07:25.800 library fire in American history. 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:29.480 It had occurred in nineteen eighty six. 0:07:30.600 --> 0:07:35.760 It destroyed four hundred thousand books and damaged seven hundred 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:41.280 thousand more. The library was closed for seven years after 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:47.960 the fire, I mean the destruction and the extremely complicated 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:53.440 process of rebuilding the collection of the library took a 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:59.360 very long time. And the question, of course was who 0:08:00.480 --> 0:08:05.200 would set a library on fire? What would motivate you? 0:08:05.200 --> 0:08:11.600 You know, arson, Arson is a really interesting strange crime. 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:18.760 It's usually done for money, or it's done by someone 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:25.680 who has a pathological kind of fascination with fire, or 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:31.560 it's done for revenge. Those are the three categories. There 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:35.520 is no money to be gotten from burning a library. 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.160 You know, those fires. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:42.640 Tend to be business owners who set their own business 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.560 on fire to get insurance money, or you know, some 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:52.800 version of that, and so's it's a particularly kind of 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:58.760 funky crime because it's really trying to leverage their insurance 0:08:58.880 --> 0:09:02.960 money out of a business. Revenge you can understand, you know, 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:08.840 somebody gets insulted by someone who owns a restaurant or 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:13.280 a bar, and for revenge they set it on fire. 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:19.720 That's also a sort of understandable kind of category. There 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:28.200 are people who have the psychological fascination with fire, pyromaniacs 0:09:28.520 --> 0:09:35.080 who really are responsible for a lot of fires, frequently 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:40.079 not in a place like the library, but you know, 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:44.400 a lot of fires set in woods, fires set in 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:49.120 smaller locations. And then of course it can escalate, and 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:53.960 there have been many instances of people with psychological problems 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:58.280 who have set a building on fire and people have 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:03.520 been killed. It was a really interesting instance here in 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:08.599 La where I live, of a whole rash of fires 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.560 that were cropping up in the Glendale area. 0:10:12.240 --> 0:10:13.520 Nobody could figure it out. 0:10:14.040 --> 0:10:18.480 Finally, one of these fires was lit in a sort 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.960 of home depot kind of store. The roof collapsed, two 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:28.960 firefighters were killed, and the fire department, you know, were 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.760 really activated to figure out. 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.680 What is going on, We're having all of these arson fires. Well, 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:38.040 who was it? 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.280 It was a member of the fire department, in fact, 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:47.200 a chief in the fire department, who was a firebug 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.600 and who was setting all of these fires. He had 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:57.479 written a novel about a fire captain who was a pyromaniac, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.240 and he was trying to sell it to get option 0:11:01.720 --> 0:11:02.720 to make a movie. 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.720 I mean, this guy was hiding in plain sight. 0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:12.240 Yeah, and I'm not going to say that firefighters are pyramaniacs, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:16.280 but it's not the only time in the history of 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:21.360 the world that a person a firefighter turned out to 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.800 be someone who also had this pathological fascination with fire 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.360 and to the degree that they were starting them. So 0:11:31.280 --> 0:11:36.359 circling back here, the question was, right, there's no insurance 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:39.599 money to be gotten by burning. 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:41.880 Down a library. Could it be revenge? 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.520 I'm sure somebody was in the library and a librarian 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:50.800 spoke harshly to him, and he set the library and fire. 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:56.360 No one could remember an instance of having an interaction 0:11:57.480 --> 0:12:01.040 was someone that where they felt like this person was 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:05.640 angry and going to create a problem. So you've got 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:09.600 the issue of all right, it's somebody with the psychological problem. 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.600 How do you solve that kind of crime. The entire 0:12:13.760 --> 0:12:19.040 city was invested in figuring this out. People took the 0:12:19.040 --> 0:12:23.480 burning of the library very personally. Yeah, I think it 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.600 really stirred in people this sense that the library belonged 0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:32.920 to all of us and that someone damaging it was 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:40.280 really damaging a communal property that people really cared about. 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.920 Take me back to that day in nineteen eighty six 0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.480 in La How did this unfold that actual day? You 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:50.679 know where there are sprinkler systems, When did did people 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.000 smell the fire? And how many people you know tell 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:54.680 me that whole detail. 0:12:55.760 --> 0:13:00.000 This day in April nineteen eighty six, it was a beautiful, 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:05.120 clear day. The library at that point was not in 0:13:05.240 --> 0:13:06.200 good repair. 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:11.840 They had a lot of fire code violations, mostly sort 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:16.400 of insignificant things that were technical violations. 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.319 They had a book cart sort of in the way 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:23.120 of a fire exit and so forth. But also the 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.160 wiring in the building was very old. The building was 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:29.960 built in the nineteen twenties and it had been neglected. 0:13:30.520 --> 0:13:38.480 It was really overdue for a serious renovation, and a 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.040 lot of the systems did not work well. For instance, 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.600 if you plugged in a coffee maker, the lights would 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:51.040 go out or you know it clearly, the wiring was 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:55.520 faulty and way overloaded a building built in the twenties. 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.240 There was no air conditioning because they didn't have enough 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:03.280 power coming into the building. Also the structure of the building, 0:14:03.800 --> 0:14:06.960 and this is no longer the way libraries are built. 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.360 But you know, tons of books in a library are 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.960 in sort of deep storage. They're not all on the shelves, 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:18.240 They're in what is known as the stacks. 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.800 Back in the old days, the stacks were built like 0:14:23.240 --> 0:14:26.320 small rectangular. 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:32.240 Rooms within the library, and they would go the entire 0:14:32.400 --> 0:14:38.880 height of the library, resembling a chimney, no ventilation. And 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:41.440 in the case of the La Library, and this was 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:47.360 typical at the time, there were not floors between the levels. 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:51.120 Now a floor or ceiling. In the case of a fire, 0:14:51.920 --> 0:14:54.360 the fire starts on the first floor and is going 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:58.880 upward and hits a ceiling, it's not going to continue upward. 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.160 In the case of of the stacks in the library, 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:09.600 it was seven stories and they were divided by wire grates, 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:17.080 not solid floors, so it truly resembled a seven story chimney. 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.080 So the morning unfolded just as any ordinary morning. 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.600 It was about ten or eleven AM, and a fire 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:28.520 alarm went off at that point in time. Because of 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.680 all of these wiring problems, fire alarms went off all 0:15:32.760 --> 0:15:36.359 the time, and even though people. 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:38.960 Had to evacuate, they did it very. 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:43.560 Grudgingly because most of the time it was just some little, 0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:49.240 you know, coffeemaker threw as fuse and that was all 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:52.560 it was. And you still had to evacuate the hundreds 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:56.360 of employees, the hundreds of patrons, So everybody was a 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.880 little slow to get out of the building. Everyone assumed 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:05.920 entirely that this was another false alarm. The library was 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:08.880 working on the adding a wing at the time, and 0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:13.080 the architect of the new wing was in the building 0:16:13.240 --> 0:16:18.160 having a meeting, and they all took this fire alarm 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:24.080 so unseeriously that he left all the plans in the building, 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.640 He left his hotel key, a lot of the librarians 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:29.080 left their purses. You know. 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:31.560 People were just like, oh god, this is such a headache. 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.560 We have to go out, and we'll left to stand 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:37.200 there for ten minutes. Fire department will come, they'll reset 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:37.680 the alarm. 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:38.280 That'll be it. 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:42.640 So everyone finally leaves the building. The fire department shows up. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:46.040 You know there they've been at the library a million times, 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:50.840 so there again is like trudging through the building, check around. 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.880 There's no sign of anything amiss. They go to reset 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.120 the fire alarm and it wouldn't reset. And they try 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:03.640 again and again it wouldn't reset, which any of us 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:08.040 who have ever reset the breaker in our house knows 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.600 that if it's no big deal, all you do is 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:11.439 flip the switch. 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:15.320 So this would not reset. 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:18.160 They thought, all right, well, we'll do another walk around 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:24.639 because obviously there's something is wrong, which they assumed was 0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:31.119 a failure of the fire alarm system. They walk through 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:37.399 the library again and finally notice a little thin thread 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:42.600 of smoke in the fiction department, and they come around 0:17:42.640 --> 0:17:47.760 the corner and they see a fire that has begun. 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:54.480 They were absolutely astonished. What's more, when you think about 0:17:55.080 --> 0:18:01.080 where a fire would have fuel, a library is maybe 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:08.800 the most delicious place for a fire to begin. What's more, 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:15.719 this fire had begun in the stacks, this tube that 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:23.280 I was describing that instantly the fire shot up through 0:18:23.440 --> 0:18:30.080 the stacks, unstopped by floors because there were no floors, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.639 there were just those wire grates, and it climbed the 0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:41.119 seven stories of the stacks almost immediately. Because this was 0:18:41.200 --> 0:18:47.040 an old building, nobody had the drawings of the interior 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:51.639 at the ready so that they could say, whoa, you know, 0:18:51.920 --> 0:18:56.000 this is a seventh story chimney. We've really got to 0:18:56.040 --> 0:18:59.720 get in there and get it stopped immediately or it's 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:05.000 going to really blow up. So while they're trying to 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:09.679 find the drawings for the building, which are hidden somewhere 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:14.320 in the archives from nineteen twenty six, the fire is raging. 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.960 It took off really quickly. You know, this is the 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:23.919 perfect environment for a fire. Not only the stacks, but 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:27.400 that is what fueled the fire and. 0:19:27.720 --> 0:19:30.480 Built it the intensity that it reached. 0:19:30.560 --> 0:19:34.000 At one point it was estimated to have reached twenty 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:39.719 five hundred degrees. There is a quality when a fire 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:46.959 is so hot that the air itself is on fire, 0:19:48.280 --> 0:19:49.800 and you know. 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:54.240 That requires a fire having an enormous. 0:19:53.800 --> 0:19:59.320 Amount of fuel, having essentially the perfect condition for fire, 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:04.720 and it found it in the library, book after book, 0:20:05.560 --> 0:20:12.520 just being devoured, nothing really to stop it. The fire 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:18.320 doors that are now very typical in every building. They 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:22.400 had not installed fire doors. You know, this was an 0:20:22.440 --> 0:20:27.400 old building and it was not up to the code 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:32.360 that we would now expect a building to be. And 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:35.760 because it was a municipal building and nobody was spending 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:39.840 the money and nobody was really spending the time thinking 0:20:39.880 --> 0:20:43.960 about it, and you know, the city there were many 0:20:44.040 --> 0:20:47.639 discussions going on about maybe the building should get torn down. 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.320 So there was a reluctance to invest in the building 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.520 because there was a movement afoot to tear it down 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:01.359 and replace it, sell the land, build up a library elsewhere. 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:08.680 So you had essentially the perfect scenario for a fire. 0:21:09.640 --> 0:21:13.119 It burned for seven and a half hours, which is 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:19.280 as anyone can imagine an enormous amount of time for 0:21:19.400 --> 0:21:23.440 a fire to be burning, but every time they would 0:21:23.640 --> 0:21:27.199 dampen it down in one part of the library, it 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:32.520 would simply shoot through the building to another area and 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:38.760 start burning. Fire's a really interesting element. Fire has a 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:47.400 will to live that we normally associate with animate beings, plants, humans, animals. 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.160 You know, this sort of I want to live kind 0:21:50.200 --> 0:21:55.000 of impulse. Fire has it too. Fire wants to keep burning, 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.720 so if it's thwarted at one point, it will turn 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.000 and look for other places to burn. 0:22:03.840 --> 0:22:04.080 You know. 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.679 Writing about this fire was really kind of spooky. It 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.679 was as if it was this wicked creature, kind of 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:18.520 racing through this building, evading the firefighters and finding hidden 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:20.040 passages in. 0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:23.480 The building that they didn't even know existed. 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.760 Because nobody had current plans for the building. 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:30.120 I mean, in the animals of fire history. 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:33.359 It would go down as one of the more perfect 0:22:33.400 --> 0:22:39.200 fires from the point of view of destructiveness of an 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:42.800 environment that was so conducive to fire. 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.679 I remember seeing what I think continues to be one 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:48.840 of the most interesting movies to me, which was a 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:52.040 huge commercial movie Backdraft, right, and it was the first 0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.840 time I had really seen it as sort of this 0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:59.520 rolling animal almost coming through. You know, I've written about smog, 0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:02.040 and you know, see it as that's sort of like 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.800 an entity also. So let me ask you some basic questions. 0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:09.240 No sprinklers at all, I have to assume in the building. 0:23:09.119 --> 0:23:13.880 No sprinklers. You know, sprinklers at that time, in nineteen 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:19.040 eighty six were a pretty blunt instrument. If any little 0:23:19.080 --> 0:23:23.440 bit of smoke was detected, they would be set off, 0:23:23.840 --> 0:23:26.679 you know, and here you are in a library with 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:29.040 water raining down on books. 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:35.680 Essentially you're ruining the books. So in fact, in the. 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.879 Tally of the books that were ruined, met all of 0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.200 the books that were damaged, or the majority of the 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:45.439 books that were damaged were damaged by the water, not 0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:47.840 by I mean a lot of them were damaged also 0:23:47.920 --> 0:23:50.720 by smoke. And you know, and the four hundred thousand 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.880 that were destroyed were largely the ones that were burned, 0:23:54.520 --> 0:23:57.800 but the water used to put out the fire. At 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:00.840 some point they just thought, either we're going to save 0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:05.480 the building, or you know, that's our goal is to. 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:06.280 Save the building. 0:24:06.480 --> 0:24:10.200 We cannot expect to save the books. 0:24:10.600 --> 0:24:13.880 So libraries were very loath. 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:19.359 To have sprinkler systems, because just imagine someone lights a 0:24:19.400 --> 0:24:26.560 cigarette like absent mindedly and sets off this catastrophic you know, 0:24:27.160 --> 0:24:31.400 rain of fire. Sprinkler systems have gotten much better there 0:24:31.480 --> 0:24:34.159 might you know a lot of them use foam and 0:24:34.240 --> 0:24:38.000 not water. I mean, they've evolved. But remember that was 0:24:38.040 --> 0:24:41.960 a long time ago, nineteen eighty six. Yeah, sprinkler systems 0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:46.119 were probably new to the world at that point. I 0:24:46.119 --> 0:24:49.440 mean I don't remember when they were developed. But they 0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:55.000 did one thing, which was they basically triggered these sprinklers literally. 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:59.560 But no, the library didn't have any, nor did they 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:02.680 have any you know, they probably had fire hydrants around. 0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:06.280 I mean that was the extent of it, but that 0:25:06.440 --> 0:25:10.800 would have worked on a little tiny you know, somebody 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:15.480 dropped a match and they're squirting fire hydrant foam on it. 0:25:15.480 --> 0:25:19.640 It was absolutely powerless. I mean, by the time they 0:25:19.680 --> 0:25:25.760 discovered this fire, it was way beyond that minor control. 0:25:25.960 --> 0:25:29.879 I mean, it not only required the fire department, but 0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:33.480 it nearly outmatched the fire department. 0:25:34.040 --> 0:25:36.480 So when they first discovered the fire, you said in 0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:40.919 the fiction section, was it clear what the origin was 0:25:41.119 --> 0:25:43.320 of the fire? I mean, did they look at this 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:45.399 and say this does not look electrical. It looks like 0:25:45.440 --> 0:25:48.080 this was intentional based on where it started. 0:25:48.720 --> 0:25:54.720 Yes and no, yes they believe that. I mean the 0:25:55.359 --> 0:25:58.480 science of arson. And let me go on my little 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:05.520 rant here about arsen Most of the learning about arson 0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:12.719 had been mainly sort of folk knowledge that was passed 0:26:12.720 --> 0:26:18.359 down from firefighter to firefighter, not based on science, not 0:26:18.560 --> 0:26:24.320 based on actual clinical studies. The area that's most burned 0:26:25.640 --> 0:26:29.040 is where the fire started. That was the thought. 0:26:30.080 --> 0:26:34.080 Well, we have learned in more. 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:38.080 Recent time, with actual studies of fire, that that is 0:26:38.160 --> 0:26:42.399 not true. It may be where the fire started, but 0:26:42.480 --> 0:26:46.280 it is not necessarily where the fire started. So this 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:52.440 is like the foundational belief of arson investigators, and that 0:26:52.600 --> 0:26:55.320 is wherever it's burned the most, that's where it started. 0:26:56.000 --> 0:27:03.600 There was a very famous case in Texas of a 0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:08.159 guy who was accused of setting his house on fire 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:13.760 by lighting a fire under his children's beds, and the 0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:18.120 children died. He was sent to death row and he was. 0:27:18.080 --> 0:27:20.119 Executed Todd Willingham. 0:27:20.320 --> 0:27:26.439 Yeah, and then some years later, through the advocacy of 0:27:26.560 --> 0:27:30.760 people who truly believed he was innocent, they were able 0:27:30.840 --> 0:27:35.560 to prove pretty much without a doubt that the fire 0:27:35.640 --> 0:27:41.200 had started in a habachi on their front porch, and 0:27:41.400 --> 0:27:44.440 of course it was too late. They had already executed him. 0:27:45.200 --> 0:27:51.520 And it was the first really dramatic exposure of there's 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:55.000 nothing malicious in this misperception. 0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:59.560 It was believe you don't know what you don't know, right, And. 0:27:59.440 --> 0:28:00.720 There's just logic. 0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:03.320