1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:02,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Truth with Lisa Booth, where we get 2 00:00:02,120 --> 00:00:04,840 Speaker 1: to the heart of the issues that matter to you. Today, 3 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: we're delving into the ongoing investigation into what happened to 4 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 1: Nancy Guthrie. Of course, she's the mother of Today co 5 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: host Savannah Guthrie, who vanished from her home in Arizona 6 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: on January thirty. First, we've got Jonathan Gilliham on the show. 7 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: He's a former Navy seal, FBI special agent and a 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: crisis management expert. 9 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 2: He's a friend of the show. You know who he is. 10 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: But I'm going to get his perspective on what he 11 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: thinks happened. 12 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: You know, what is the state of the investigation. 13 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: Is she potentially in Mexico at this point given the 14 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: proximity to her home and Mexico, and what does that 15 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:40,960 Speaker 1: mean if she is. 16 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 2: Also, we now have video of the alleged suspect. 17 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:48,639 Speaker 1: What can he derive from that. We're going to lean 18 00:00:48,680 --> 00:00:51,680 Speaker 1: on his background in the FBI for all of that. Also, 19 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: he's been following the Epstein files. What do you need 20 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: to know what stands out to him? Stay tuned for 21 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:04,600 Speaker 1: all of that and more with Jonathan Gilliam. Well, Jonathan 22 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:06,840 Speaker 1: It's great to have you back on the show. I 23 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: know you've been you know, blueden and plugged in and 24 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: on TV and paying close attention to the Nancy Guthrie investigation. 25 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 2: Where do you see it as it stands now? 26 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 1: Kind of like let's just start sort of like with 27 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:20,759 Speaker 1: the big picture of how you see things. 28 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 3: So I think you know Adam Sabes there at Fox. 29 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 3: He's a great writer and he I collaborate with him 30 00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 3: a lot, and he has some sources and did a 31 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:36,680 Speaker 3: story yesterday about this sheriff and how the sheriff has 32 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:41,160 Speaker 3: really programmed a lot of people into positions based on 33 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: whether or not he gets along with them in Pinal County. 34 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 3: I think that is that hurt the investigation up front. 35 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 3: I think the senior investigator on this case, it only 36 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 3: has two years as a detective, so there's a and 37 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 3: there's other issues they had with the plane and so 38 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 3: on and so forth that we're just bad decisions and 39 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 3: along that along with the the just the information that 40 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: was disseminated by this sheriff during these press conferences. It 41 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 3: fell into that long line of incompetent press conferences that 42 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 3: we've had from law enforcement over the past year. It's 43 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: gotten really bad over the past year, and they lose 44 00:02:20,520 --> 00:02:23,800 Speaker 3: a lot of things when they have a bad press conference, 45 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 3: just like when you're putting people in positions because you 46 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 3: get along with them versus whether or not they're qualified. 47 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 3: And I think we lost a lot of evidence at 48 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,600 Speaker 3: the scene, at least having it quickly so that we 49 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 3: could could get to it, because I don't think they 50 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: did a proper search, and I think they let that 51 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: scene go too quickly, So that was a real problem. 52 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 3: So the FBI was playing catch up when they got there. 53 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 3: And then on top of that, there was no force multiplier. 54 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,959 Speaker 3: They did not use the community as a force multiplier. 55 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 3: I mean I heard the sheriff say that very beginning 56 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: that he did not think this went across the border. Well, 57 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 3: he didn't know that. He shouldn't have said that. And 58 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 3: he said that at one point that the brother in 59 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 3: law or the son in law dropped him off. Then 60 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 3: he said that he didn't know if they dropped him off. 61 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 3: He said that they were there at a certain time, 62 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 3: and then he said that that afternoon that was reported, 63 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 3: and then he said in another time. So there was 64 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 3: all these things that if people were listening, they could 65 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 3: have said, you know, I was awake at that time 66 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: and I remember looking out to the window, but they didn't. 67 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 3: They lost that aspect of it. And so I think 68 00:03:31,040 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 3: from the very beginning this has been a very troubling 69 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 3: case because of that sheriff and his mistakes. I think 70 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 3: the ransom issues because this was so publicized globally that 71 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:48,080 Speaker 3: these we now see that people are bold. They will 72 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 3: go and try to claim a ransom when they had 73 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: nothing to do with it, like the guy in California, 74 00:03:52,960 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 3: and they vetted that out very quickly. But this other 75 00:03:56,000 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 3: ransom very It seems a lot like a a scam 76 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 3: that you see coming out of India or Nigeria, where 77 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 3: it's usually a money scam where they convince elderly people 78 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: to do. 79 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: The Nigerian friends, right. 80 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's these scams happen all the time. They're 81 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 3: convincing elderly people to cash in their life savings transferred 82 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 3: into gold and then give it to quote unquote these 83 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 3: FBI agents to hold because somebody's hunting them. And it 84 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 3: happens all the time. So this was very reminiscent of 85 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 3: that because it was so anonymous, there was no two 86 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 3: way communication and if you've seen any of the kidnappings 87 00:04:36,080 --> 00:04:39,760 Speaker 3: that happen in Mexico and other locations where they actually 88 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 3: do use bitcoin, those are very overt. They say, you know, 89 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:47,719 Speaker 3: there's a two way communication. They show that they have 90 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 3: the individual and that they're under duress and if they 91 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 3: don't pay, they're going to be killed, and it happens 92 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: very quickly. So I think that a lot of pressure 93 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 3: was put on that timeline and trying to prove whether 94 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 3: or not this ransom was real, that we just lost 95 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,039 Speaker 3: a lot of time between the totality of all these 96 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 3: different aspects and once that video was discovered, which is 97 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,240 Speaker 3: a whole nother backstory that I'm trying to push this 98 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,839 Speaker 3: wherever I talk because I think this is going to 99 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,160 Speaker 3: be a story once this has resolved, which is they 100 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 3: didn't subscribe to the Nest camera. Apparently Google owns that, 101 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 3: and as we see now that whether you have a 102 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,920 Speaker 3: subscription or not, it's recording, and that recording is being 103 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 3: stored and that is a massive security breach. I think 104 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 3: Ring had some type of a commercial during a Super 105 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 3: Bowl that alluded to the same thing with if you 106 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 3: lose a pet and you can utilize other people's cameras 107 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 3: around the neighborhood, So that's going to be a whole 108 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 3: nother side story. But once that video came out or 109 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 3: they were able to get that video, they were able 110 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 3: to get definitive evidentiary clues as to who this person is, 111 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 3: size of the shoe, how tall they are, their gait, 112 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 3: how calm they were, which is a very telling thing, 113 00:06:03,040 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 3: along with how much time you put that together with 114 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,359 Speaker 3: how much time they spent in the house, which was 115 00:06:08,800 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: approximately that we know, forty one minutes at least, and 116 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 3: you start to get a picture of who this person is. 117 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,680 Speaker 3: But how dumb they are carrying their holster like they do, 118 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 3: not realizing that there's a camera there, and then trying 119 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,040 Speaker 3: to cover it up with weeds. There was just a 120 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: lot of like amateur stuff mixed up. 121 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,159 Speaker 2: Why would a person be calm then, like what would 122 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 2: that indicate to you? 123 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: Then that they've done this before and gotten away with it, 124 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 3: And so even though they're not a professional, they are experienced, 125 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 3: and so we see that with criminals a lot. They 126 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 3: try something, they get away with it, and then they 127 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 3: continue to do that and then they get caught because 128 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,680 Speaker 3: eventually their ignorance catches up with them, So. 129 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: Think is this thing I mean, do you think the 130 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: intention based off of everything we know so far? Like 131 00:06:56,279 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: was the kidnapping the intention? Or like do we what 132 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: do you is she still alive do we think? Or like, 133 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: what do you think based off of what we saw 134 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: in the backpack and you know, the mannerisms and what 135 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: have you? 136 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 2: Can we direct it from that you think of this originally? 137 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 3: I think, well, I think there's a couple of things here. 138 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 3: I'm not like one of these people that you see. 139 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 3: I'm not going to point out any names, but there's 140 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 3: a lot of quote unquote experts with experience that come 141 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 3: on these news shows and they say this is what's occurred. Well, 142 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: they don't know if that's what's occurred. So I look 143 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 3: at the possibilities that are there. One of them is 144 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 3: that this person was familiar enough with that neighborhood potentially 145 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 3: worked on the home or other homes. I know, she 146 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,679 Speaker 3: has a new roof, so there's a potential there that 147 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 3: that the person was a laborer and was familiar enough 148 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 3: that they came in to rob the place, and that's 149 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 3: why they weren't in a hurry, because they were sneaking 150 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 3: in and going to sneak back out. There's the potential 151 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 3: that they maybe know Nancy or know the family and 152 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 3: were kind of keyed in on her and worked their 153 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 3: way in, but not with the intention of robbing, but 154 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 3: the intention of causing her harm or possibly robbing. Right, 155 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 3: I'm not ruling robbing out. A robbery is out as 156 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,040 Speaker 3: a motive. There's also the potential because I just heard this, 157 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 3: and I have not heard this from any of the 158 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 3: law enforcement. I heard it from somebody who used to 159 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,239 Speaker 3: be I think an FBI agent that was down there 160 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 3: and has contacts, and apparently sometime in the near past, 161 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 3: there was a kidnapping of a guy who was wealthy 162 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 3: in the Tucson area and was taken across the border 163 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 3: and held for ransom. So I have heard nobody else 164 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,200 Speaker 3: talking about this, and I only heard it while I 165 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,280 Speaker 3: was waiting to do an interview and I heard her talking, 166 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 3: so I didn't get the details or even who she was. 167 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 3: But that was on one of the other networks yesterday, 168 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,920 Speaker 3: So if that's the case, they should be looking at 169 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 3: that closely. So if that's the case, then that would 170 00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 3: also kind of speak towards the fact that this guy 171 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 3: was comfortable and potentially there were other people involved, which 172 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 3: we do I don't know, and other people assuming that 173 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 3: there were. And so that brings me to the kind 174 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 3: of conclusion this rant is that depending on what avenue 175 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 3: this actually came from, would determine whether or not she's alive, 176 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 3: and also whether she's alive or not the distance that 177 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 3: she is from where she was abducted. And I think 178 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 3: if the guy was going to go in and rob 179 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,520 Speaker 3: the place and Nancy woke up and he injured her 180 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,719 Speaker 3: or shot her or something, then I would think that 181 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 3: she's probably within thirty miles of that of that home. 182 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: Well, because to me, like okay, I mean, I know 183 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: criminals are criminals, but like this is going to sound STUEPI, 184 00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: but I've seen like documentaries where even criminals have like 185 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: their own weird definition of like right versus wrong, and 186 00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: it's an absurd moral like hierarchy that they have in 187 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: their minds, Like even gang efforts that's like, oh, well, 188 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: we don't kill innocence or we don't kill so and so, 189 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: or you know what I mean, Like like I don't know, 190 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: I watched this documentary about I can't remember some really 191 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: terrible prison gang and the guy was saying, well, like 192 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: he fell out with the gang because he was like, 193 00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: I don't kill innocence, I only kill other people who 194 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: deserve to be killed, right, which is like a twisted 195 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: way of thinking. But like point of this point of 196 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: the question, I guess is that like, who would go 197 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: and intentionally desired harm an eighty or four year old 198 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: innocuous woman, right, Like to me, it would seem that 199 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: either the aim was a robbery that went wrong, or 200 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: they knew that she was Savannah Guthrie's mom and there 201 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 1: could have been money involve like they know her daughter's 202 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: rich and famous, right, Like who would show up with 203 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: the intention of, like, let's kill an eighty four year 204 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: old woman just for the sake of it? 205 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: Is that like long story, you know, short? But does 206 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 2: that make sense to you? 207 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:44,320 Speaker 3: Or is that I think that in the world that 208 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 3: we live in today, that moral compass, that criminal moral 209 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 3: compass is degraded. And you see it. You see it 210 00:10:53,040 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 3: in the mafia, of course, but you do see it 211 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 3: in prison. Pedophiles are not they you used to come 212 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 3: into and if you were pedophilegy it was almost a 213 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 3: death sentence for a lot of people. That is not 214 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:10,119 Speaker 3: necessarily the case anymore. And I think as morality degrades 215 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 3: around the world and in this nation, you see that 216 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 3: people of a criminal mindset have become more of like 217 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 3: what we see in wartime, where they don't have a 218 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 3: concept of life and death and they're more self indulged 219 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 3: and almost psychopathic. It's almost like that's kind of being 220 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 3: programmed in to people in general. That's why you go 221 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,120 Speaker 3: on X and you see people you know that they're 222 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 3: a mom with three kids and they are cursing people 223 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 3: out because they disagreed with a Super Bowl commercial, you know. 224 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: So morals have degraded all over. So I think when 225 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,680 Speaker 3: we look at who would do this, I think I 226 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 3: don't look at these criminals anymore is potentially having morals, 227 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 3: and I think they're all capable of it. That we've 228 00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 3: shown that robbers who haven't killed before will now kill kidnaps, 229 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 3: Rappers will will take a person out, kill them and 230 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 3: then do a ruse just to put distance between them 231 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 3: and the location and saying that they have the person alive. 232 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 3: And then we've also seen where they just brutally torture 233 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 3: people and send those videos and then people are more 234 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 3: apt to send the money. So I think if we 235 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,359 Speaker 3: look at this and we look at these different avenues 236 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 3: of possibility. I think that the possibility of her being 237 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 3: taken across the border is very high if she was 238 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 3: in fact kidnapped, and she could still be alive. If 239 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 3: that's the case, she's a bad although she's in bad health, 240 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 3: and I don't know how far that is going to go. 241 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 3: But I think if this was a robbery, or if 242 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 3: it was not somebody who's kidnapped before and something occurred, 243 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 3: then I would suspect that she is not alive anymore. 244 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: That's been my concern since day one. 245 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:53,319 Speaker 1: I was on Outnumbered, like right when this was breaking, 246 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: and that was my question to Paulmorrow about like, look, 247 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: Mexico is right there, you know, like how does that 248 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: complem this investigation? Because then you're dealing with the Mexican government, right, 249 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: and then you're dealing with train that like we're not 250 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: as familiar with, and so you know, it's like just 251 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:13,079 Speaker 1: adds this whole new layer of complexity. And then you're 252 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 1: dealing with, you know, a country with a bunch of 253 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: cartels and you know drug dealers, and you know, a 254 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 1: corrupt state, right, So. 255 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: Which is why I think the hostage rescue team. You know, 256 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 3: the FBI hostage Rescue team is not your typical swat team, right, 257 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 3: so they're usually involved. They're a Tier one asset. They 258 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 3: have basically the same capabilities as you know, Seal Team 259 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 3: six or Delta Force from a law enforcement perspective, but 260 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 3: they come in they're not just there to serve a 261 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 3: typical warrant. So I think the fact that they were 262 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: involved they might have evidence or at least be considering 263 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 3: that she is being held hostage and potentially over the border, 264 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 3: because they would be the ones if they had to 265 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 3: do this hostage rescue across the or they would most 266 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 3: likely be the ones to do that, So that is 267 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 3: potentially why they are there. 268 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: I got to take a quick break more with Jonathan 269 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: on the other side. You know, obviously it's easy for 270 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: people like me who have not worked in law enforcement 271 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: to be like, man, this seems like it's taking forever, 272 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 1: and obviously it's getting the twenty four hour news treatment, 273 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: which sort of makes it feel like it's been a 274 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: longer period of time than it has been. Is this 275 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: lag and sort of the ability to crack the case 276 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: and figure out where she is or is that normal 277 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: or have we kind of like, like, you know, I 278 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: don't know, like is this normal to take this long 279 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: or you know, from your perspective, where are we in this? 280 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 2: From that? 281 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 3: I think, you know, I think if you look at 282 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 3: the totality of all these cases and if people don't 283 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 3: watch us out, I mean, it can it can get overwhelming. 284 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 3: But forty eight Hours Mysteries has been on for like 285 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 3: thirty years, and you can go on YouTube or a 286 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 3: different YouTube. It is typically where I watch it. But 287 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 3: I think it's one of the best case studies out 288 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 3: there of all this type of crime. And most of 289 00:15:07,560 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 3: the time they're related to the person or they just 290 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: happen to meet the wrong person at the wrong time. 291 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 3: And I think when we look at the speed at 292 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 3: which these things occur, this is no different. It's just 293 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 3: that we're seeing it and it's being reported on in 294 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 3: a way that we've never seen before. I mean, you know, 295 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 3: these reporters or they're all over the place, and they're 296 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: moving fast, and they have social media, so they have 297 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:37,080 Speaker 3: the ability to disseminate information now, and it's not just 298 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 3: gumshoe reporting where you're writing a quick article and they're 299 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 3: reporting on the news. I mean they're literally there in 300 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 3: real time. So if the evidence isn't there, the case 301 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 3: is only going to move so fast. And I think 302 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 3: what you're seeing is the natural progression of things. As 303 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 3: evidence appears, the case will move forward. And most of 304 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 3: these cases that I've seen been a part of or 305 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: you know research, is that they if they do stall 306 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 3: when the right piece of evidence comes in, they just 307 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 3: fall in the lap of these investigators, and so that 308 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 3: that could happen. But you know, Lisa, I was when 309 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 3: I was in the FBI inherited the case from the 310 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,160 Speaker 3: two thousand pipe Times Square pipe bomber who rode up 311 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: on a bicycle all around Manhattan and then into Times 312 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:26,640 Speaker 3: Square at three in the morning, put a pipe bomb 313 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 3: on the recruiting the military recruiting depot there in the 314 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: middle of Times Square, and then rode off, stashed a bike, 315 00:16:33,520 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 3: and got on train. And we've never found them, and 316 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:40,240 Speaker 3: that he's probably been videotaped by more cameras than any 317 00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 3: particular person on a single day, and we were not 318 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 3: able to identify them. So, but cameras give a lot 319 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 3: of information. But if they don't give fingerprints, and they 320 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 3: don't give DNA, and if you if that person's never 321 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: been seen before by some type of a camera that 322 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 3: has recognition, you may not be able to find who 323 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 3: they are, regardless of the video. So I think this 324 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 3: case is progressing as quickly as it can. I think 325 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,199 Speaker 3: it would have gone faster though, had it been handled 326 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 3: differently at the beginning. 327 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,040 Speaker 1: So, and then I want to jump to the Epstein 328 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: files real quick. You get your take on that. But 329 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: before we move off the Nancy Guthrie thing, is there 330 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: anything I've missed and sort of the questions or anything 331 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 1: that should be conveyed to the audience before we get 332 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:24,080 Speaker 1: the ebsteined. 333 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 3: I think that. So I think two things very important 334 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 3: for everybody has a stage to kind of put this 335 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:33,159 Speaker 3: out there, is that these social media influencers and these sluths, 336 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 3: all these people that are on social media and just 337 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 3: people in general. You're a great force multiplier. You can 338 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: actually make a difference. However, you don't know everything, and 339 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 3: to assume that you know that this family member is 340 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 3: guilty or that person, you may yourself actually lead other 341 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 3: people who could have good eyes on something down the 342 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 3: wrong path. So I would would guard against watching people 343 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:02,960 Speaker 3: who are making definitionative statements without the evidence because those 344 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 3: are clickbaiters, and if you are an influencer or you're 345 00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 3: a sleuth that is trying that's your thing. I would 346 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 3: be very slow and methodical, but I would not at 347 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:16,920 Speaker 3: the same time say no that this might be an avenue, 348 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 3: because you yourself may miss it. So I think this 349 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 3: we're in a weird territory, uncharted territory where normal civilians 350 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 3: have access to almost as much information as law enforcement 351 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 3: at times. So I think that I think this is 352 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,160 Speaker 3: a very important evolution that law enforcement needs to take 353 00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:39,159 Speaker 3: advantage of it. But I think also people need to 354 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 3: be smart and very careful as to who they're listening 355 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 3: to and getting their information from, because as they disseminate, 356 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,120 Speaker 3: the information may be totally wrong and lead the entire 357 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 3: group of people who could be forced multipliers in a 358 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: bad direction. And then the last thing is at least 359 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 3: with this, I really want you to stay on this 360 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 3: and everybody else in the news with these cameras. I 361 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,280 Speaker 3: think this is a huge, huge, I think it's one 362 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 3: of the biggest stories that I've seen in recent history. 363 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 3: That you know, when Snapchat said that it was everything 364 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,800 Speaker 3: was secret or WhatsApp or whatever, we know that it's not. 365 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 3: I mean those are texts. This is video, and so 366 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 3: people have this video in their homes, in private areas, 367 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 3: in their homes, and now we know that that information 368 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 3: is going and being stored, recorded and stored, and that 369 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: is huge because if nefarious people want to get a 370 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 3: hold of that, or if Google, which is one of 371 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 3: the most powerful organizations in the world, decides it wants 372 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: to start blackmailing people. I mean, look, it could be 373 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,160 Speaker 3: if the FBI could find this, that means some scammer 374 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 3: from India can find it. And that is I think 375 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 3: one of the biggest breaches of what we deem to 376 00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:57,879 Speaker 3: be security, our security by corporation that I've ever seen, 377 00:19:58,200 --> 00:19:59,919 Speaker 3: because these cameras are everywhere. 378 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 2: No, I didn't think about that, and that is very scary. 379 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 1: I mean, obviously in this case it's helpful, but in 380 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: the broader scheme of things, it's not so. And then 381 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:13,639 Speaker 1: to your point real quick about getting sidetracked. I mean, 382 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 1: I was in the DC area during the DC sniper 383 00:20:17,320 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 1: and I remember, you know, they told it was a 384 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,840 Speaker 1: white van, and so it's like, you know, you're getting gas, 385 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: you see a white van, you start hiding behind your car, 386 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: you know, and then ended up not being I can't remember. 387 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 2: It was some like beat up car, right, so. 388 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: You know to that point, I remember like getting gas 389 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: and you'd see a white van and I'd be like 390 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: hiding behind my car. You know, you're terrified of white 391 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: vans everywhere. Yeah, And it ended up not even being 392 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: a white van. It was some like old old school 393 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: car type thing. 394 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 3: Something as simple as that. A press conference where they 395 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 3: say a white van when they didn't know in fact 396 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,720 Speaker 3: that it was a white van. And so when they 397 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 3: put that information out instead of just saying suspicious vehicles 398 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,720 Speaker 3: that that in and around areas where the public is 399 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 3: is moving, it could be a white van. But white 400 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 3: vans are everywhere, so don't just limit your vision to 401 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 3: a white van. They didn't say that. They said that 402 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 3: reports were that a white van was near the area, 403 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,399 Speaker 3: and so everybody was looking for that. And that's a 404 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 3: perfect example of leading the force multiplier, that is, the community, 405 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 3: away from being able to think for themselves and discover 406 00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 3: things quick break. 407 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: If you like what you're hearing, please share on social 408 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: media or send it to your family and friends. You know, obviously, 409 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: from what we have seen so far with the Epstein 410 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: files being released, sort of what are broad takeaways, what 411 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:40,439 Speaker 1: are you still waiting to see and kind of like, 412 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: what are what conclusions have you drawn so far? 413 00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 3: A couple things first and foremost, again, since one of 414 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 3: the topic of these force multipliers in the citizenry in 415 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 3: this country around the world is I don't mind people 416 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 3: being very passionate about this. I mean, I think it's 417 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 3: it's horrific and the level of the depravity is still 418 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 3: yet to be seen as to what was happening. And 419 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 3: I think people putting pressure on politicians is great, but 420 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:11,719 Speaker 3: people need to realize that this is this is a 421 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 3: national security issue that goes far beyond I don't want 422 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 3: to say far beyond, but it's more than just a 423 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 3: moral issue or a moral or a crime issue. These 424 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 3: are war leaders. These are people who are in charge 425 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 3: of militaries, people who are potentially we don't know the list, 426 00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 3: but from what we gather, these are war leaders that 427 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 3: have influence on importing and exporting, business people's jobs, livelihood, 428 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 3: whether wars are started. And if you think that just 429 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 3: rolling out a list and going after people like this 430 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 3: is not going to have global ramifications, you're wrong. And yes, 431 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 3: these underage people were molested and raped and who knows, 432 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 3: and potentially killed. I think those crimes should be investigated 433 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 3: to the nth degree, to the ends of the earth, 434 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 3: but they need to be done smartly. And I see 435 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,439 Speaker 3: fault in the way people think civilians think that can 436 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 3: be done. But I also find tremendous fault in the 437 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,480 Speaker 3: way it has been done by the FBI and other 438 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:18,480 Speaker 3: politicians and law enforcement over the years. So these things 439 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: have largely gone unpunished, and not just unpunished, but we're 440 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: able to continue on and I think that I think 441 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 3: we're in a real interesting place in this case because 442 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 3: as this information is released, it's less likely and people 443 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: don't realize this. The release of files. Everybody wants to 444 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 3: files released. Well, as those files are released, it's less 445 00:23:42,040 --> 00:23:45,199 Speaker 3: likely that criminal charges are going to be brought against 446 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 3: anyone because once you release that information in the eyes 447 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 3: of a jury or a prosecutor, it becomes less valuable 448 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 3: and not more valuable. And so if there were good 449 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 3: prosecutors that understood the national security ramifications. But we're dead 450 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,040 Speaker 3: set on going after these people in some way, shape 451 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 3: or form, and working with the administration, I think that 452 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,640 Speaker 3: we could flip this and use this as a tremendous 453 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 3: national security tool and intelligence tool to go after and 454 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 3: own and handle world leaders, but at the same time 455 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,920 Speaker 3: hold people accountable. And you know, the masses just want 456 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 3: to see blood because they think that's the way things 457 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 3: work in the world, and that's not the way things work. 458 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 3: Bad guys get away with murder and world leaders rape 459 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 3: and pillage, and that's the way it has always been 460 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 3: since the beginning of time. And if people think that 461 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 3: that's just going to stop because they have a voice 462 00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 3: on X now that that is not the case. 463 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 1: Well to that point, to what extent are world leaders 464 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,600 Speaker 1: manipulated by other governments then, because if you know, obviously 465 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,199 Speaker 1: these emails are there and there's potential wrongdoing, and you know, 466 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: I imagine that some of these other governments have dossiers 467 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: on some of these leaders and are potentially aware of 468 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,399 Speaker 1: some of this wrongdoing. And so to what degree is 469 00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: that information leveraged or you know, or world leaders coerced 470 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: with this stuff or am I watched to make you know? 471 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 3: Like listen, it's so it's not just the whether or 472 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 3: not their core first of all, it's not whether or 473 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:28,920 Speaker 3: not there they can be coerced. I believe they can. 474 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 3: I don't think that's an issue. But I think in 475 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,520 Speaker 3: a lot of the cases, people that you're going to 476 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 3: see are people who have access to the top. So 477 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 3: a secretary of state, you flip a secretary of state, 478 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 3: or you just get a secretary of state in which 479 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,679 Speaker 3: we hear that there are secretaries of state on this list. 480 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: If they get in a compromising position, not only do 481 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:52,199 Speaker 3: they have access to other world leaders, but they have 482 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 3: access to the commander in chief. So influence goes tremendously 483 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 3: long ways. So you have you have that issue. But 484 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 3: I think think when it comes to the world leaders 485 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 3: themselves and being able to control them, most people don't realize. 486 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 3: This is just a good example is that all the 487 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 3: generals and admirals that you see in our military. There's 488 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 3: some great ones right who earn their way to the top. 489 00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 3: But even those individuals, none of them got to the 490 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 3: position they are because they climbed to the top. They 491 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 3: may have climbed to the point of six, but to 492 00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 3: get to seven, which is general or admiral, they had 493 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: to be pulled up. And the same thing with these 494 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 3: deputy directors and all these agencies that you see. You 495 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,320 Speaker 3: may check all the boxes to get to assistant Special 496 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 3: Agent in charge. But to get to SAC and above, 497 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 3: you're pulled up, and depending on who's pulling you up, 498 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,680 Speaker 3: if they're not a good person, then you're going to 499 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 3: have to pay the man in order to get that rank, 500 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 3: or they're just going to go find people who are 501 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 3: like minded. And so I think the same thing is 502 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 3: in this case. If you can get somebody in a 503 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 3: compromising position and that person is hungry for power, then 504 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,320 Speaker 3: and it's easy to pull them up to where you 505 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 3: need them to be. So, whether that's a world leader 506 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,280 Speaker 3: or that is somebody that is in their orbit doing 507 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,880 Speaker 3: things like this, which was able to occur with Epstein, 508 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 3: I don't think it would be difficult at all. 509 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:16,479 Speaker 1: So before we go, do you think that was his 510 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,199 Speaker 1: whole play, then, to get these people in compromising positions 511 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: and then kind of like own them. 512 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,120 Speaker 3: I do. And I think when you look at everything 513 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 3: that Epstein was, I can't tell you how this guy 514 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,840 Speaker 3: made billions. I've never seen any proof on how he 515 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 3: made billions of dollars. I can't tell you how he 516 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:38,520 Speaker 3: just was ingratiated with the most powerful people in the world. 517 00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 3: I mean, how do you just become ingratiated like that. 518 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 3: I mean he knew everybody, he flew with everybody, he 519 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:49,400 Speaker 3: hosted everybody, and for somebody who I can't trace his 520 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 3: career and how he got billions of dollars and I 521 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 3: can't trace where he was introduced into this community. Then 522 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 3: I have to assume he was introduced with intent, and 523 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 3: his money in a large part was funded through different means. 524 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,959 Speaker 2: I mean, his trust on behalf of other governments. 525 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 3: Could be Yeah, his trust won the lottery in twenty 526 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 3: eight twenty seven million dollars. Is what they took, is 527 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 3: what they got. That's take home. So that seems like 528 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,040 Speaker 3: a payoff to me that this guy who's a billionaire 529 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 3: all of a sudden made twenty seven million dollars in 530 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 3: one day through a oh he won the lottery. I'm 531 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,920 Speaker 3: not buying that. We don't know who controls those lotteries, 532 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 3: you know what I mean. So I look at this 533 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 3: as it's got all that the aspects of an Intel operation. 534 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 3: It's just we don't know who he was working for 535 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 3: or who was benefiting. But we can definitely see who 536 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: was on the jammed up list, that's for sure. 537 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: Jonathan, interesting stuff. Always appreciate you taking the time to 538 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,240 Speaker 1: come on the show. Thank you for your insight, you 539 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 1: got it. 540 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 3: Thank you for the great questions. It's very important. 541 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 2: That was Jonathan Gilliam. 542 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: Appreciate him from making the time to come on the show. 543 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: Appreciate you guys at home for listening every Tuesday and 544 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: Thursday week. I'm listening throughout the week. I also wanted 545 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: to thank John Cassio and my producer for putting the 546 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: show together. 547 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:07,840 Speaker 2: Until next time.